Habits and Hustle - Episode 455: Dr. Vishal Patel: Why Your Feet Control Your Longevity and Most Wellness Tech Is Wrong

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Are wellness retreats just luxury getaways, or can they transform your health? In this episode of the Habits and Hustle podcast, I speak with Dr. Vishal Patel, who explains how most wellness gadgets might be causing more stress than health benefits.  We explore the science behind Sensei's approach, including how thermal imaging can detect muscular imbalances before they cause pain, and why most saunas aren't hot enough to deliver benefits. Dr. Patel debunks popular wellness myths, shares why foot strength is the foundation of longevity, and explains why tracking obsession can be counterproductive.  Dr. Vishal Patel is the Chief Scientific Officer at Sensei, a wellness retreat company co-founded by Larry Ellison and Dr. David Agus. With a background as a physician with a PhD in genetics, Dr. Patel combines Western medicine with Eastern practices like Ayurveda to create evidence-based wellness approaches that focus on personalization rather than rigid rules. What We Discuss:  03:02 Personalized Wellness Programs 05:51 The Science of Eating and Nourishment 08:56 Understanding Body Mechanics for Longevity 12:03 Vishal Patel's Background and Expertise 14:54 Debunking Wellness Myths and Misinformation 20:13 The Science Behind Wellness Trends 25:14 Exploring Infrared Saunas and Their Efficacy 30:00 The Role of Data in Health Tracking 35:29 Understanding Plasmapheresis and Its Implications …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers.  Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here, code Jennifer20 for 20% off.  David: Buy 4, get the 5th free at davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle.   Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Dr. Vishal Patel: Website: https://sensei.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vishal-n-patel-md-phd/ 

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it! Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their Tri-Lite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

I personally use Therisage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to therisage.com right now and use code BEBold for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therisage.com for 15% off any of their products. So I'm joined today by Dr. Vishal Patel, who is the Chief Science and Innovative Officer at a place called, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been, Sensei.

Sensei is basically, I want you to kind of walk us through it because I had a beautiful experience. It is a wellness facility that is beyond anything I've ever been to because of the care and the quality and just overall the programming. Let's talk about how, what would you, how would you describe what it is? And then let's get into your background and what your involvement is. Oh, sure. Yeah, to describe what it is? And then let's get into your background and what your involvement is. Oh, sure. Yeah, to describe what it is, it's a wellness retreat, but even that doesn't do justice to the place and the experience.

It was a vision that our co-founders, Larry Ellison and David Agus had. It was a passing of a close friend, Steve Jobs, that really made them realize that they need, the world needs spaces where even the best and brightest can feel safe and get trusted vetted advice about their health and wellness. And I think that's probably what you experienced at Lanai, that it feels like a place where you can let your guard down, where you can feel safe, you can get space to wander, and you have experts, which are really hidden gems

that a lot of people don't expect, but we have brilliant, brilliant minds and hearts on Lanai that can guide our guests to greater wellbeing. It's something special. It is something special, yeah. So like I went to the one like in Lanai in Hawaii, and there's how many locations do you guys have three now? We are now three as of last week.

Yeah, we just opened our first international location in Cabo with the Ritz Carlton Reserve in Mexico. So yeah, because the one I went to was with the Four Seasons. And like, let me just kind of like explain and break it down a bit because I've been given what I do for my background, for my job, for whatever. I've been to like a plethora of different wellness facilities. I've tried every program retreat. Number one, what I found to be very unique, it is very personalized. That's the

first thing I would say. And the attention to detail with what you can have, I think I was, I think I did the rest of relaxation program and Jim, I think his name was Jim, who really kind of like, really did a lot of like intake on like my background, what I'm going through in life. And then the program is very personalized for my, for me. You also have another program that I didn't do. That's very much about data and metrics.

Yeah. We call it the optimal wellbeing program. The optimal wellbeing program. When I found the one I was at, the one thing I found was interesting was, you know, a lot of these programs, the food is very precise. Like the, you know, the caloric intake you're taking, they really kind of try to like,

they try to really kind of, I guess, kind of like be involved in like your overall like what you're taking in nutrition wise while you're there. Yeah, we often describe it as like a prescription or a boot camp or a regimen. I know I'm really familiar with, you know, maybe like the ranch in Malibu and places like that where it's, it can feel a little, yeah, very restrictive. Yes, that's right. Yeah, but it was a really- Well, yeah, it's a real property in there, right?

Like the one I- That's right. There was very little, yeah, like I found that to be like kind of like the antithesis that what a wellness program is about. Can you explain why you guys are not very- Oh, absolutely. Yeah, because I found that to be an interesting takeaway.

Yeah, and in a nutshell, be an interesting takeaway. Yeah. And in a nutshell, it's because the scientific evidence doesn't support rules for living life. So when we looked at the scientific literature, my team and our co-founders, for what results in say healthy eating, just as one example, you know, we focus on movement, rest, but just taking food and nourishment. But when you take a rules-based approach to eating, where there's a certain list of foods you can eat and then a very long list of foods you can't eat, in the psychology literature,

what happens inevitably with every cohort, every population, is that as soon as you're given that naughty list of foods, your mind very naturally starts wanting to eat those things. So then you start feeling these cravings and this desire that has an emotional impact, you start feeling guilty for wanting those things and you start punishing yourself for, for not, for avoiding those things. And then in a few weeks to months, you fall off the wagon. So with every diet, paleo, keto, anything that's considered a diet where you're following a set of rules, you end up having this yo-yo behavior where

um, people end up latching onto a diet thinking it's going to be the end all be all, they fall off and then they revert back to their, their old ways and old habits, and then they find the next fad diet and then they latch onto that. And so since they didn't want to perpetuate that. Not only is it an unsustainable approach to living, it's not good for you. You end up with a slightly disordered relationship with food where you use food as punishment and reward. It's, it's not healthy for us in the long run.

And so that's why it's open-ended. It's kind of more of like a choose your own adventure rather than a bootcamp where we're going to tell you what to do. And I that's why it's open ended. It's kind of more like a choose your own adventure rather than a boot camp where we're going to tell you what to do. And I know what you mean. We get a lot of guests that show up and say, okay, so tell me what to eat. Tell me when to wake up. Tell me what to when to sleep. Where are my supplements? Just tell me what to do. But longevity and wellness don't work like that. It's about the choices you make and learning to teach yourself to be more intentional with those choices. And so that's why Sensei was designed in that way.

Yeah, like I found a lot of things that I was questioning. There was scientific backing of why it is the way it is, right? The food thing really threw me for a loop because to me, a big piece of wellness and health is all it is about the nourishing part, right? That the food also I love to eat. I'm with you.

Yeah. I'm a big proponent of almost food as medicine. I studied Ayurvedic medicine in India, which is, you know, that's kind of a central tenet of that system of thought. But on the flip side, you know, telling someone what to eat removes the joy out of food, removes the sensory appreciation from food. And what we recognize is that, no, the sensory aspect of eating is just as important as the macronutrients on your plate. It has to look pretty. It has to be presented beautifully.

There's a certain pace to eating that needs to be synchronized with your gastronomy. So you actually are salivating before you eat. And so we take all that into consideration to introduce a more intentional approach to eating. Yeah, I mean, can you talk about more of the science behind that? Because the overall in the program, just to kind of give some differentiation for people, why it is different, because like you said, well, like besides the fact that they're in these beautiful places and the programming is spectacular from, of course you have the sound baths, you have the yoga,

you have all the meditation. Even the teacher, I had this other teacher there, which again, kind of like threw me for a loop because I thought I had like this one-on-one with him to do like that. I thought like a personal training session, right? But it was a very unique one because it wasn't what I was expecting.

I ended up taking off my shoes, he was looking at my feet, and he gave me literally like a four-year degree in how my feet are the, it's basically where all the power comes in and all my strength comes in. If my feet are not strong, then basically my whole body will fall apart, like my hips, my knees, my joints.

Yeah, so that sounds like Eduardo. Eduardo. But I'll tell you something, he is not wrong because my feet are weak, they're flat, not to give people too much information, but like my arches have fallen, all the things, because I work out so hard. Yeah. But your body breaks down so much quicker

if your feet are not properly, if they're not properly worked out, literally. And for longevity, that's like such, that's so terrible, right? Because how you stay younger longer is having these strong feet, which is one of these things where I think that people are a mess, they don't realize that. They think they don't, they just go,

go, go. And then when their hip falls or their knees are, they don't go to the source of the problem, which is always the feet. That's exactly right. So that's, I think you hit on the science actually. And that's what we've tried to incorporate. And Eduardo does it with such warmth. He's really disarming, but he has a way of like cutting right to the heart of the problem. Yeah. But yeah, what we notice, you know, with these, with our retreats, they're built very intentionally for high performers. And as a high performer, you know, and your audience probably knows that

you're so focused on, on a goal, you know, performing, whether it's in the gym, on the field, in a sport, whatever your area, arena of performance is. Results. You're focused on the result, and you learn over time to be more resilient, more tolerant of the pain, of the, you know, the aches and complaints, and whether that's in the workplace or in the gym, right? But what our retreats do is create some space in your mind.

So you can start noticing that all those little things that you might have overlooked in your pursuit of that goal. So maybe it was your footwear. Maybe you were wearing shoes that were a little too tight. Maybe you didn't really think about your footfall while running. And that might be why you're having the knee pain. Maybe there is a lot of tension in your jaw that stems from your ergonomics in your workplace.

But all of these small details are really almost imperceptible in our day-to-day life because we build our environments in pursuit of a vision, in pursuit of a goal, because we're trying to achieve something. But to be able to do that for the long haul, like you said, longevity for a longer, healthier life, you do need occasional resets or retreats where you can take a more mindful approach at things like your footwear or the type of pillow that you sleep on. Maybe the pillow is contributing to your neck pain.

There's all of these subtle factors in our environment and our habits, but it really does take stepping away from it all to get that perspective. Totally. Can you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got involved? Because you said you studied aromatic medicine. You're obviously a physician. Can you just explain to us what your expertise is and the relationship? Yeah, happy to.

I trained as a physician. I got my PhD in genetics, both from Case Western Reserve in Ohio. Oddly enough, and I know we were having some IT challenges at the beginning of the call, so maybe you'll find this amusing, but the reason I got into Sensei was because of technology and data of all things.

My background, my research was in the same field of research as Dr. Agus, our co-founder, which is proteomics and genomics. And it was the data and the intention was to think about human beings on the inside as well as on the outside as complex systems that maybe we don't understand how everything works, But maybe if we measure more of it, we can start painting a more complete picture of how human beings work. That was really what motivated me.

When I came to Sensei, it was the same vision that our guests as high performers, we're all hell bent on figuring out how this world works and making it better in some form or fashion. And we're really analytical. We like to measure everything around us so that we can perform better, faster, harder. And the thought was, well, why don't we take that language of data that really speaks to us and to our guests and use it as almost like a mirror to turn that lens inward.

Say why don't we measure you? Why don't we shed some light on how you're doing? So some of the initial data that we were collecting, basic things like blood pressure and lipid panels that were just surprising that our guests hadn't had that measured in a while. We had a partnership with Whoop, which was tremendous, because then we started collecting real life, real world data.

You know, our guests in the wild and their home environments, and we get to see how they're doing and whether they're doing well or not so well. And then there's some real exciting innovations that Sensei has incubated. One that I'm passionate about is around thermography. And we're using thermal cameras that are used in like home construction and defense. But again, we're taking that lens and pointing it at the human being and saying, well, why don't we look at your thermal patterns and thermal signatures? Why don't we try to understand skin temperature as a biomarker and to tell us

to try and figure out what did that, what does that tell us about what's happening inside of you? And it's really exciting. And so again, I think for me being at Sensei, it feels like a culmination of my love of data and technology, but I also get to blend the East and the West. So I studied Ayurveda. I have a deep appreciation for traditions and culture and history,

and that has a really important place. It always has and always will in how human beings understand their health and wellness. I'm, you know, here in Mexico now, there's an indigenous system of medicine here in Mexico. There are traditional ways that people have thought about health and food and diet, and you have to take those into consideration when you're trying to shift perceptions and minds, when you're trying to introduce healthier eating patterns, when you're trying to incorporate more physical activity, you do have to be

considerate of how people grew up and where they came from. And so I, I enjoy bringing that understanding of Eastern traditions and culture, as well as biomedicine into my work at Sensei. And again, before we started, I mentioned we, you know, we don't diagnose and treat at our, at our retreats. And so sometimes people wonder is like, yeah, well, I mentioned we don't diagnose and treat at our retreats. And so sometimes people wonder is like, yeah, well, why do you need a doctor at the helm? It's actually because we say no to a lot of things. I mean, there's just a lot of clinical things in the wellness world that don't have evidence.

And it's important that we steer people clear of magic bullets and gimmicks that don't work, that aren't proven, that may have some toxicity, that may have side effects, that may not be beneficial for you in the long run. And so that's how I incorporate my medical background here. So could you talk about that a little bit, like in terms of a lot of the things that don't have any research or background that you guys, you think are kind of myths or because the wellness business has become, have you heard this,

I just heard this yesterday, that the wellness business has actually become more profitable than Big Pharma now, supplement company, all of this. And with social media as well, there's a lot of information, misinformation, and people glom onto it because they're looking for this magic bullet. They want to believe if I take this, that I'm going to get that result. And I'm a person that I try to uncover this and talk about it as much as possible. Because we can all fall prey to this. I do all the time. If I see something that's captivating, I'm like, oh, I'll buy it. And then I have to stop myself and realize, Oh, maybe that's not the best thing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've seen that you guys have steered away from that why you said it's important to have a medical

doctor around? There's a lot. Is there is there Yeah, what's your favorite topic or disease or supplement at the moment? I whenever you think is the most harming that people should be aware of, or things that just are just silly, that don't work, that you've kind of encountered. Well, you know, I mean, our partners are our hotels, Four Seasons and the Ritz-Carlton. I think the one that I get the biggest kick out of are the ivy drips at the pool. Yes.

They look sexy. And I think there's a fascination with pumping your body full of stuff, but there's no evidence that it works. You know, my team of scientists and researchers, we've poured over the literature trying to find some kernel of truth for why that might make someone feel better. And our best, most informed conclusion is it's because you're well hydrated afterwards. You got pumped full of a liter of water and of course you're going to feel better. But there's no evidence that being injected with B12 is necessary or beneficial for most people.

So that's one. Another one where I'm really skeptical are peptide injections. And I don't know if you've turned around your cosmetics over the past couple of years, but most cosmetics nowadays have proprietary peptides. Peptides are short chain amino acids. You know, some building blocks of any protein. And on one hand, they're being studied as a new type of drug, as a vehicle for delivering drugs because they're so powerful and so potent.

And on the other hand, labs are whipping the stuff up. Your cosmetic companies are whipping the stuff up in the lab. I can't find a toxicology report online. And then they put this and they bottle up in a cream and you can put it on your face and yes, you have outcomes. You, it will reduce your wrinkles, but at what cost? And that's what concerns me is is that in the pursuit of, call it anti-aging or looking younger or living longer,

we're willing to make sacrifices where we don't know the full cost of it. And again, my background was in proteomics. I studied proteins, peptides and amino acids and all the things that they do in the human body and they're so powerful. So the way that a peptide works is it triggers so many cellular pathways that we scientists don't even understand what cellular pathways

and signaling pathways have been triggered by the peptide. It's a little bit of magic at the moment and not entirely scientific. Do you know what I find interesting? Peptides is a big fad right now, right? Like things kind of, that's a big one. And so what I find interesting? Peptide is a big fad right now, right? Like things kind of, that's a big one. And so what I find very interesting is a lot of the doctors that I speak to offline who are not involved in social media, they don't even, they're not on there, they don't care, you know, have a, agree with you.

They think that the IVs, you just basically pee out whatever you're getting because you're getting such an abundant amount. And so it's basically just a money grab, you know, like the three, $400 and you're going to, it's completely not worth it. And the peptides, the problem with the peptides, and that's why they've been, they're not, there's like laws against a lot of them. People think it's because the farmer is trying to control it, but people, and maybe that's true. I'm not saying it is or not, but a concern is there is not enough fact research to know

what the outcomes are because they haven't been around long enough. No. And plus many of them are proprietary. So in Sensei's work, as we look at skincare and try to find evidence-based skincare products for our customers, there's been so many brands we've said no to because they concocted this chemical in their lab. There's no published peer-reviewed toxicology report that we can stand behind that we can believe in.

And yeah, I think that's unfortunate. But on the other hand, I feel like the consumer maybe because of podcasts like this, I think consumers are becoming more informed and discerning. They're looking for transparency in ingredients and manufacturing and quality. And I feel like that's part of Sensei's mission is to keep educating and informing our listeners so that they can make more informed choices. One thing I found very interesting when I was there, I had this back and forth with one of your employees because I went to use the sauna, the infrared sauna,

and it was cold in there. I'm telling you, it was cold in there, Michelle. Okay, it was literally, I'm like, can we put it on? And they're like, oh, it's the highest that we can put it. And I'm like, the highest? I'm like, literally, I need to go get a towel and wrap it around me. It was cold. She's like, what? She said 140 was the highest. I was like, first of all, I'm like the highest. I'm like literally I need to go get a towel and wrap it around me. It was cool. She's like what she said 140 was the highest. I was like first

of all I had the same song. I have the same sauna at home and my problem with the sauna that I have is that it's too cold. It goes up to 170 and it takes a long time to go up to 170 and it still doesn't get me hot enough. And she's like oh all the research proves that your body is from the inside out, core temperature, all these things. And you don't have to sweat. Like I push back on that a little bit. I push back on that one. Thank you. I think that may be a bug, might be an error. It is. I don't think she was very adamant. And then the next time someone else said also

that they, they could only put it up to a certain temperature. Because, no, so if you have one, so you know, and I appreciate you bringing that up to me. It's silly, but not really, right? Because it's important. No, it's important to understand that. Yeah. And it's, so, you know, one point where you're correct, saunas don't raise your core body temperature. Actually, our core body temperature doesn't change unless you have an infection or there's something really dire happening. But when you take a cold plunge or you're in a sauna, it is peripheral temperature, it's skin temperature

that's being modulated. So I think that's with infrared radiation. It is true that infrared radiation from an infrared sauna does penetrate below the skin, but it is inconclusive if that's why it's beneficial for your health or more or less beneficial than traditional sauna. Again, from the science and evidence, I think it's just a different mechanism of heat and radiant heat production. A little less air pollution in an infrared sauna versus a traditional charcoal sauna, but you're absolutely right. It needs to get you hot and you need to be sweating

and you need to do it for 15 minutes so that your heart rate is pounding. And I like to be a little dizzy by the time I step out of a sauna. That's what I say. Like, that's why right now the push is actually to get away from the ones with the red light and the red ones and to get the ones that are wood burning.

They go way hotter. They go to like 220, some of them. You can die in one of those. But most of the research I've seen is really based around the science behind the wood burning ones from Finland. They're not the ones. That's exactly right. Right.

So the ones with the red infrared, like there is a lot of people are like, this is not getting me hot enough. I got to sit in here for 45 minutes to even like, get it beat up. So I was efficient, yeah. So I was efficient, right? I had to just ask about that. Cause I swear that I was like, I'm not wrong on this one.

You're not wrong on that one. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for pointing that out actually. And it's important. Thank you. Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentous 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega-3 combo for months now, and the

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Jen for 35% off your first subscription. That's LiveMomentous.com code Jen for 35% off your first subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did. Can you give me some other things that you've, that data, some things science-backed, data-based stuff that you've kind of, you know about that is kind of integrated into the program or by the way, not, it's just, you know, someone like you who's very data related. Gosh, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. So I'll give you just like some fresh hot takes, I guess, because I'm here in Cabo, like, you know, we just opened our operation.

I'm literally testing some of the equipment on myself yesterday. So there's there's some fascinating maybe we can talk about thermography. I wrote that down because I am fascinated by its thermography. You've said that that's something that you guys are doing. What is it? Can you explain what it is? Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's fascinating. But it's a I don't know if you've ever seen a thermal image or a heat map, but a thermal camera has a special type

of infrared sensor. And so it detects infrared radiation. You know, they use it in, gosh, I mean, in home construction so they can look behind, like through the wall in a way, and identify leaks or, you know, gaps in insulation. But when you point an infrared sensor at the human body, what you're looking at in that heat map of the human body

is heat dissipation from the skin, which is an indicator of differences in circulation. So you see hot spots, which could mean vasodilation. There's more blood in those areas. And you see cold spots. What's fascinating is that we're beginning to correlate those hot spots and cold spots to muscular's fascinating is that we're beginning to correlate those hot spots and cold spots to muscular imbalances and asymmetries.

So the muscles that you overuse and, you know, overused muscles can be because either you're, you're working out too hard or you're holding a lot of stress or tension in a certain muscle, you know, so for instance, I know it's a good example. So hamstrings and runners are a good example of an underused muscle. They tend to be kind of chronically shortened, right? Even most of us as we're sitting all day. So we have kind of that, they call that superior cross body position where our pectoralis and our chest muscles are tightened and constricted,

our backs are extended. But when we start looking at the thermography data, we can start seeing that. And I saw it in myself. So my sternocleidomastoid on my right side was flaming red, like hotter than on my left side. And it's because there's no normative data on thermography, there's not like age and gender databases of thermal data. We have to use internal control. So we compare our left and right sides to figure out what's happening on the right side

of your skin versus your left side. So my right sternocleidomastoid was incredibly tight, which was incredibly hot. So it indicated either there's some inflammation or a lot of tension that is holding here. Then the exercise physiologist guide here, Brenda, she took me through a functional movement screen. And in the functional movement screen, as I was trying to touch my hands behind my back, I know she noticed that there was asymmetries in my ability to reach behind my back, and then we noticed some hotspots in my deltoids. And so through that

kind of working through the data, what we identified is that there are some opportunities, let's call them opportunities in the way that I'm exercising in the gym. And again, this is one of those things where it's like, okay, I know a lot, I think I know how to exercise and yet maybe I'm overdoing it. Maybe there isn't enough variety in my routine because I'm developing tension in muscles that you don't want tension and tension in your sternocleidomastoid is going to extend up into my jaw. Like in a week, I'll probably get cracking in my jaw from all that tension. And I'm really happy I caught it early, but now I need to spend a little bit more

time with a coach to figure out how do I introduce some more variety and more balance into my workout routine, and maybe change the ergonomics of my desk setup at home so I'm not holding so much tension there. Well, I think it's always good to have someone who points things out like that, because even like, listen, Tiger Woods had a coach, right?

Michael Jordan had a coach. We tend to do what we are good at, right? I mean, I'm like, I'm very, I dominate on the things I'm good at and the things I'm not so good at. I just don't do them. Right? That's human nature. We just avoid them. That's right. That's exactly right. Right? Like, you know, I like to do squats, so I'll do squats, but I hate to do, you know, planks. So I'm not gonna do. So I think you'll, right? Like people naturally are gonna do what they're good at, what they like, and that's how we get really bad imbalances, right?

And so for that reason, I think it's really important. But you know, what I wanted to ask you again, I wanna push back a little bit because of something else, data, and I do this with myself too Because I've done all of it, right? I've done the loops I've done the or rings that I have you look at my if you look at my office or my house It looks like a Costco with all the boxes all the way up

Everything you can possibly imagine every gadget and nook and cranny and what I noticed was the more I nook and cranny. And what I noticed was the more I was basically tracking, the more stressed I got. And I think if you were a data person, you can look at the data and notice that like, people become obsessed over their numbers. Like, you know, you're tracking your sleep and then you're gonna sleep terribly

because you're constantly looking and seeing, did you sleep okay? Versus just sleeping, right? That's right. Do you believe that there is a point where too much knowledge or too much you know information getting becomes actually a detriment versus a positive? Absolutely. I'm like you, so I wore the whoop for a year, took it off, lived without it for without anything for a while then tried the aura for a while, took that off. Now I've got an Apple watch, but I'm not using it for health tracking. Yeah. Yeah. I just use it. You know, I do look at my heart rate when I'm in the gym

to make sure I'm hitting certain zones, but that's about it. I think data and wearables feels like a, what's the word, like training wheels in a way to, to notice parts of your lifestyle and behavior that you may not have noticed before. But the reason that it becomes, we fixate it, fixate on it when we start wearing it, I think is because of how, partly it's a little bit of the, maybe the shock and the awe, like you don't realize that you're sleeping poorly until you start measuring it, or you don't realize that maybe you're not pushing yourself as hard in your runs until you start measuring your, or you don't realize that maybe you're not pushing yourself as hard in your runs until you start measuring your heart rate and you realize, oh, you have some room to go.

That's, that's what it was like for me. But, but then that initial moment of awareness, it does turn into a fixation. And again, from the psychology of wellbeing, we know that that fix, that external locus of control isn't good for you in the long run, that ultimately needs to be an internal locus of control that you need to want to go to sleep on time and wake up early because you want to, not because you're feeling guilty of not hitting a certain recovery score or strain score on your device.

But the journey starts with that. It starts with kind of that emotional kind of game of like learning about the data, gamifying it for yourself. But what we notice and what the wearable companies have told us is eventually, everyone takes it off and everyone switches because each wearable is right for a person at a certain point in their life. And then they learn how to live life, you know, informed by the data and then they take it off. And then maybe they live without it and they move to the next thing and then life changes. And so sometimes the wearables come back. Sometimes the data comes back and probably when you least expect it. Yeah, I think that you could become obsessed with it. And I do believe it's good for some type of accountability

at the beginning and knowledge-based. Like I think, but like everything, right? Like eventually you're gonna take, you know, kind of just use your own gut because it becomes, it actually becomes a more of a, in my opinion, a more of a detriment. Unless you're somebody who is like a professional athlete and an Olympian that have to meet certain marks,

for like, you hit certain things to, you know, win the gold, you know, like you got to track things for these, but for the everyday, I think it's become, it's getting out of hand. Like, you know, now everyone's walking around with a glucose monitor. Like I was about to mention, right? Like are you a diabetic? Like this is becoming an absurd thing. Like most people should not be wearing one.

That's right. And I mean, the CGMs, they have like a half life. You know, you only keep them on for a week or two and then you got to switch it out. And so like naturally, after a couple of weeks, if you're switching it out, maybe you get tired of it and just keep it off. But what I've observed is like, yeah, even with CGMs,

there's that moment initially where you're suddenly measuring or suddenly, you know, the glycemic index is brought to life because you're noticing the spike in your blood sugar after eating a apple or a cookie or whatever it is. And so I think that's, I almost feel like that's enough. Like that, that emotional moment of like shock and awe when you see your glucose, like that's enough to open your eyes and you start shifting your behavior. And then eventually I don't think you need the data for very long. Yeah. One other question I have for you is what is, have you seen what's your take on

plasma, people who are taking plasma? It's like kind of like, um, it's an IV course to get the plasma and then they, it takes out all the toxins, heavy metals out of your body. A lot of my friends are doing it and they're walking away with these 10-pound bags of their own plasma. Do you know what I'm talking about? I know what you're talking about.

It's this plasma phoresis, right? So they take your plasma, they filter it all out and then put it back inside of you or they give it to you so you can hang it on an IV at some point. In the French? Yeah. What are you gonna do with it? Yeah, I think, so this is another interesting one where there's some science

and there's some voodoo to plasmapheresis. So the science is that our plasma does become chock full of antibodies to all the things that we're exposed to. So I have a friend that works and is developing some technology based off of that principle. That because of all of those antibodies floating around in your plasma, we can filter out the ones we don't need. So potentially reducing autoimmune responses. Alternatively, you can introduce antibodies

and things into the plasma that could be good for you. So there is some science and merit to that. I don't think that the technology and the intervention, however, is there yet for mass consumption. You know, like plasmapheresis in the MediSpa. I don't trust that. Is it dangerous? You know, with every intravenous procedure, there are some risks and side effects. I think what I'm more worried about is a quality control in the Medi Spas and clinics that are running this procedure. I haven't, and again, I haven't personally looked

at the equipment and the technology and the manufacturers and the protocols, but as a scientist and physician, that would be my foremost concern, is the quality control on the stuff that you're putting directly into my system. And again, so they're going to, they're saying they're filtering your plasma, but where's the QC? Like how, where's the guarantee that you've taken out what you're saying you're taking

out and you're really putting in what you're saying you're putting in. So there's just, it's an unregulated protocol, kind of an unregulated industry. So that's what makes me concerned. Yeah, I understand that. I know you're going to catch a flight, so I'm going to let you go. Thank you, Dr. Michelle, because this was very informative. I appreciate your time and I apologize again for the snafu of technology prior. So I hope you forgive me for that. Of course I forgive you. Yeah, I am like as I said, I got my you know, I have a love of data and technology and so I'm much more forgiving of IT challenges because I live with many of them and I handle many of them. But Jennifer, this is a

pleasure. It's great to chat with you. Always a pleasure to chat with a guest. I'm so glad that you had the good fortune of visiting Lanai and that you got to experience that for yourself. Oh, it was amazing. And I recommend it to anybody and everybody because it was one of the nicest experiences in the wellness facility that I've been to. I was going to say, are they all the same, by the way, like the one, besides the fact that you partner with different hotels for whatever reason, is the programming the same everywhere or? Programming, we try to keep that mostly the same. Yeah. So the evidence based principles being data driven, focusing on movement, nourishment and rest. But then as you probably noticed each place has its own charm, its own energy, its own culture. And that, I think that, you know, adds some variety to the different locations. You'll have to come visit us in Mexico.

I think we've got a really special place and a really special team here. Oh my God, I would love to go there. Love, love, love, love, love. Check out the, well, check out Sensei. It's, even go on their website and check it out, all their different offerings. It is a really great experience if you're into health, wellness, longevity, and all the things health. So thank you again for being with me today. My pleasure, Jennifer.