Habits and Hustle - Episode 465: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Why Everyone's Playing Victim (And How to Stop)

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

Are we living in a victim culture? Cognitive psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman thinks so - and his new book "Rise Above" is the antidote we desperately need. In this Habits and Hustle episode, Scott and I dive into what separates those who rise above their circumstances from those who stay stuck. We discuss the difference between being victimized and having a victim mindset, explain why vulnerable narcissism is worse than grandiose narcissism, and reveal how "affirming therapy" might actually be keeping people trapped. Plus, Kaufman shares his sailboat model of self-actualization and why psychological flexibility is the key to resilience. Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive psychologist, author, and podcaster who teaches at Columbia University. His research focuses on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. He's the author of several books including "Ungifted" and runs the Center for Human Potential coaching program. What We Discuss:  (01:00) Self-Actualization and Overcoming Victim Mindset (10:05) The Complexity of Narcissism Mindset (14:37) Rise Above (29:40) Understanding Victim Mindset and Toxic Activism (37:49) Left-Wing Authoritarianism and Victim Mindset (44:45) Therapy Trends and Personal Growth (52:34) The Psychology of Polarization and Shame (58:52) Cultivating Psychological Flexibility and Identity Evolution (01:08:41) The Importance of Curiosity in Intelligence …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here, code Jennifer20 for 20% off.  David: Buy 4, get the 5th free at davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle.   Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Website: https://scottbarrykaufman.com/  Instagram: @scottbarrykaufman

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it! Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their Tri-Lite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain.

You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus it also has amazing anti-aging benefits including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therasage.com right now and use code BEBOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide.

Again, head over to Therasage.com and use code BEBOLD for 15% off any of their products. Okay, so today we have somebody that I've been trying to get on for a long time. I don't know if you know that or not. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Okay. It's Scott Barry Kaufman. He's a cognitive psychologist. Yeah.

His work is just really good. I don't even know how else. In so many ways, he talks about, I said that when he walked in about different types of intelligence, self actualization, he and the way you break things down, I think is very, very like very good to the point where you take something complicated and you can break it down in a simplistic way. I try. I'm also really nerdy though. So it's, you know, but I definitely try to do exactly what you just said.

So thank you. It's working. Scott's new book is called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. And like I said, like if you have not read any of his books, this one also did not disappoint. So again, thank you for being here today. Yeah, and real honor. It's a real honor. I had no idea you've wanted me on for so long. I really did because there's, you know, the thing is social media is a funny thing in a funny place,

right? And you know, for what I do especially, you meet a lot of people, you read a lot of things, and it's very... there's a lot of noise. So, they're only like... for me anyway, there's a few people that really stand out, and you've been one of them. And I really like... I'm not just saying this because we're on a podcast, and you're a guest in my show,

but I really do... your stuff resonates with me and I think it's great. So, yeah. I want to start with something that you've talked about a lot, which is self-actualization. And I just want to start off and open the podcast with how does somebody self-actualize? Hmm, wow, what a big question. I know. That's why I said it's a big question to start with.

And normally I kind of like ease into it. Let me say this, because I teach a course at Columbia University called the Science of Living Well. And to me, living well is self-actualizing. So I kind of view them as very similar things. And I will say that there is no protocol to self-actualization. So I'm sorry for those. I just pissed off a bunch of bros.

You can't optimize. You can't optimize. Self-actualization. And I just wanted to start off there because I really believe in order to self-actualize you and only you can walk that path. Only you can understand and figure out what is the bridge that you want to take. What bridge do you want to even create? And that really takes a lot of listening to the deepest recesses of your soul.

It takes a lot of really trusting yourself and listening to what I call self-actualizing compass that I think each one of us has. But there is no podcast guru that is going to tell you how to self-actualize. So I really want to answer that question in that way. But we can help people, you know, and move in their own direction that's best for them. You know, as a self-actualization coach, I'm a self-actualization coach. I'm really, I want to help people move in the direction that is best suited for them and discover what are the direction, what is the direction best suited for them that

we can help with. So this is why I wanted to start off with that question because in my opinion, you kind of self-actualize. I feel, you know, it's true. And I kind of feel I did the same thing. You know, you talk a lot even about in your new book, Rise Above, you talk about how, you know, sometimes we can get pigeonholed into doing something and then it gets, and I don't know which, which part of the book you talk about this, but then it's really taking the onus on ourselves to break free from that and then do more and, and, and action. Yeah.

And can you just talk a little bit about that whole thing and how you self actualize? And that's why I think you're such a good example of what happened with you and how you were in a special ed program. Yeah. When I was really young, I really didn't have much people, many people believe in me and I was in special ed for an auditory disability that I had. And there was a teacher that took me aside in ninth grade and she said, what are you still doing here? And she saw a higher potential in me that I didn't see in myself, but it really like

set off this whole drive to kind of show people and myself what I was capable of. And I think a lot of self-actualization is trusting that inner recesses of your soul. I really think there's something there, you know, there's something to not being a victim of your not not not having a victim mindset but turning within and Really focusing your limited energy you have on this time on this planet Really actualizing what's within you it breaks my heart to see how many people waste So much of this precious life that we've all been given through petty, resentment, hostility, jealousy, trying to

take others down. It breaks my heart because what I see in those people is a real squandering of their potential. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. And that's what you talk about. It's like how, but so what it, can you just maybe define what is a victim mindset so people listening, maybe they'll be like, aha, maybe that is what I'm doing. Absolutely. It's possible to have been victimized and not have a victim mindset. I want to make that very clear.

It's possible we go through horrible things in our, and when you have a victim mindset, you're blaming all of your problems, your current problems on some external force, whether it's an individual or it's a group of people. And you don't have productive ways of moving forward with your life with purpose and intention because you spend so much of your time planning revenge and planning sort of some way to get back at the world that has wrongdo. And so that's a victim mindset. And I really do contrast that from what I call an empowerment mindset. And an empowerment mindset is not ignoring the terrible things that have happened to us. It's a very, have you ever done improv? I haven't, but I mean, I haven't, but I know what you're going to say.

Yeah, I know you need to be yes and. Yes and. Yes, you've been through some terrible things in your life. And I believe in your greater potential for growth and development and resilience. We all have a lot more resilience within us than we realize. Often unfortunately it takes being really tested, you know, before we realize that, but let's not wait until we're tested. Well, I find is also some people, they don't have the self-awareness to even know that

they are in this victim mindset loop, right? Yeah. And it's, you know, people from the outside looking at that person can say, look at that, you know, that's what they're doing. How do you overcome a victim mindset? And I guess it's a two parter. How do you even have self-awareness enough to even know that you're in this victim mindset?

Ooh, self-awareness takes a lot of meditation, takes a lot of patience and discussions and feedback. You're not going to get that feedback unless you put yourself out there on the line to fail and put yourself out there to face your fears. I'm a big believer in behavioral activation, that approach to self-awareness, where the best way to become self-aware is to have it reflected back to you, even in a painful way, you know. For instance, I've recently taken up magic, you know, I became a professional mentalist in the last year. You did? Yeah, I read people's minds. And so I go out, you know, to restaurants and whatever, sometimes

just for fun, I'll go to bars and read people's minds and go, hey, can I read your mind? You know, and then we do that. And sometimes I get horribly rejected. Some people are just not interested. They don't know what's going on. They're not into it. And it's totally fine. And being able to handle rejection,

but still get feedback, because I want to be good. Right. And so a couple of things. First of all, I want you to kind of read my mind, which I'm going to ask you about in two seconds. But yeah, I think I'm a big believer in that, right? Like I think that we learn from our failures, right? And the only way to get comfortable with failure is to fail, right?

We're not going to like get comfortable or desensitize with it if we don't ever do it. That's why I believe like sometimes like being mediocre is actually the best thing that could have happened because A, you'll always fall and you don't have that same kind of pressure on you. But that's how you build resilience in my opinion, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it sounds like you got the habits. I got the habits. But wait, so can you really read my mind right now? Oh, well, maybe later I'll do. How do you even go to school for that?

I wanna stay in this frame before. No, no, for sure. But I was just wondering, like, is it something that you can actually learn? I thought it's something that either people either have innately or they don't. Can you go to school for that? Yeah, you can train.

Yeah, I have mentors that have taken me under their wing. I love that. That's great. You also say something that I saw in the book that I found very interesting was like over medicalizing natural human behaviors and over labeling. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. Yeah. TikTok therapy is a thing. It's a huge thing. Like words like, what's happening is we're like, everyone's in a trauma mode. Everything is like, there's hashtags and trends and then people just kind of like narcissism is a big label.

You know, people, you know, they find something that kind of tracks and then they go on to it and that becomes your thing. Right? Trauma. Yeah. Yes. Yes. This is true. People take true. People take psychology, language, diagnoses, even narcissism, now everyone's ex-boyfriend is a narcissist.

I don't know how everyone's ex-boyfriend can be a narcissist. Right, it's a lot of narcissists. Maybe some of them, certainly some of them. But we call people things people we don't like, we call them psychopaths, narcissists, everything that is uncomfortable to us, we now say it's because of our trauma, you know, you know, things like trauma, it exists,

but it's not, it's not everything. It's also humans are so complex. It's hard to reduce everything to that one thing that happened to us when we were five, you know, there are so many reasons and things that have formed who we are today. Well, narcissism is a big one, right? That's a very popular one. There's a lot. And you talk about narcissism a lot in this book. There's like, you talk about like vulnerable narcissism and there's like, what is vulnerable narcissism? Vulnerable narcissism is feeling justified to special privileges because you've suffered in the past.

Not necessarily that you're superior to others, that's grandiose narcissism, but because you've suffered in the past. What percentage of people actually have narcissistic qualities? Like, isn't a big percentage, because we're talking about how everybody now is a narcissist and this narcissism, is there like, is... It's a continuum. It's a continuum it's a continuum right like we can be narcissistic and be a nice person right like it not just one thing doesn't always automatically mean another thing that's right it's like any personality variation you asked me what percentage of the population are introverts well we all go in and out of this i like to like

to think of it more as a mindset. The victim mindset is a mindset. It's a dynamic mindset that all of us can fall prey to. Narcissism is a mindset as well. Some people do habitually score high in vulnerable narcissism. That's true. But there is no demarcation line between the vulnerable narcissist and the non-vulnerable narcissist because we're all human.

Right, right. Yeah. But is there one kind that's more like the good type? Is there a good type versus like a... If I had to choose one type of narcissism, I would rather be a grandiose narcissist than a vulnerable narcissist. That is true. Really?

Why? Grandiose narcissism is associated with leadership skills. It's associated with greater well-being. Even if you don't increase the well-being of others, you're still in person. A lot of entrepreneurs are narcissists. Oh, 100%. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. And we actually have a study we just published showing we may need to rethink grandiose narcissism because we found a profile of people who score high in grandiose narcissism but low in vulnerable narcissism and those individuals seem, there seems to be no downside to it. Really? Yeah, we probably don't want to believe that because we like to believe that, you know, they come, they get their comeuppance because they're so full of themselves. But there really seems to be a lot of benefits of having such self-belief in yourself.

Well, I think you have to be a little bit narcissistic to go after big dreams, right? I think so. And to take risks, right? Yeah, I think so. And a lot of it is dependent on your field, right? So if you're an NBA basketball player and you show some grandiose narcissism, your fans love you. It's true. But if you're an accountant, probably not so much, right? You don't want to puffed up or it's always flying airplane, who's overconfident.

We can deal with some overconfidence here and there with an NBA player, but also a brain surgeon. I want my brain surgeon to have that too. Sure, so I think it's contextual too. It is contextual. What about you're saying about the vulnerable, why would you not want to be a vulnerable narcissist? Well, it's associated with depression, it's associated with constant self-esteem uncertainty. People who score very high in vulnerable narcissism are constantly unsure of who they are and they need constant, not necessarily praise, but they need constant

acceptance. If they're rejected or even the slightest hint of rejection, they fall into pieces. So let me ask, why did you decide to write this book now? Why Rise Above Now? You wrote Transcend. Was there something like, did you, were you seeing a lot of people in like the, in the zeitgeist with victim mindsets with what was happening? What was the kind of like the reason why you were kind of swaying towards this?

I did feel a need. It's exciting to see that by the way. Yeah, is it? Yeah. You put your heart and soul into something for so long. Yeah. And you see it come true. I know, it's true. Prolition. I did think that it was really in the culture, a victimhood culture that we're living in right now.

Jean Twenge, who wrote the book Generations, talks about, you know, two generations ago we had kids, I forget what that was, generation what? But if we, not this generation, not the last generation, the generation before that. Gen X? In the group in the 80s and 90s. That's me. No, millennials is after. Generation X. Generation X.

I think there's confusion about whether or not. Tell me a check. No, that's okay. Whatever you are and me, I think we're the same age. Okay. Well, I don't know. How old are you? You tell me first. I know you tell me for you don't want to say that to me. You're going to be kicked off the show. If you say you're 64, we're in big trouble.

I'm 45. Okay, good. Yeah. So then basically, I think we're called, we're Gen X. Okay. Gen Xers are all about, and then as well as the one that came before them, we're really about the self-esteem movement. You know, when you think about Saturday Night Live, like, I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, God damn it, people like me. Exactly. That was Stuart Smiley from Saturday Night Live.

Great skit. But then the generation after that, that morphed too much into grandiose narcissism. So a self-esteem movement really turned into, we're the best. Yeah. But for some reason that has morphed into a generation of vulnerable narcissists. All these kids, they feel they're entitled

to special privileges because of whatever special thing that makes their suffering unique. That's, yes, you're preaching to the choir. Am I wrong? No, you're preaching to the converted, because I agree with you 100%. What do you think the rise of what happened? Well, Jonathan Haidt would say coddling. Coddling.

We're coddling these kids, Greg Wilkianoff and John Haidt. I would say the same. I just did a TED talk on how to basically, it's called how to raise mentally strong kids in a fragile world. Because I'm a big believer that that's what's happening. And the gentle parenting era is very detrimental to the kids. I think the kids, even where we live, right? The entitlement with the anxiety, with the depression, with the social anxiety. There's so much of it. Part of it is I think that there's no time to play, right? It's a big part of it.

I'm a big believer in play, yeah. But also part of it is what happened to the narratives that were rewarded in our childhood? Right. Do you remember when it was rewarded to overcome things? Like in college essays, the story wasn't how vulnerable we are, but the story was what we've done to overcome it. Now college admissions rewards just the vulnerability, you know? Well, that's the thing. Well, I think what Brene Brown did this whole, as you know, the vulnerability. Yeah, but it got them steroids. became the new kind of, the new kind of like rhetoric, right? Like the more vulnerable you are, the more you talk about your problems,

the more you expose who you are, that's what kind of has become the thing. Our generation, to your point, was more like, more like coping skills, like, you know, doing things for ourselves, like resilience, you know, kind of like independence and like sucking it up type of thing, right? But like to you, you were saying earlier about self-esteem, you're right. Like back then was much more about self-esteem.

Yes. So where is the, where is the line between being overly confident and narcissistic, let's say, and self-esteem. What is the difference? There is actually a difference between self-esteem and narcissism. Those are two separate constructs, as we say in psychology. They actually have two different developmental trajectories.

So when kids are younger, their narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and then start to decline. Whereas self-esteem is very low in adolescence and starts to improve as people get older. Self-esteem is really just feeling a sense that you're worth it. In a lot of ways, narcissism, which is, I'm great, I'm the best, is a compensation for low self-esteem, sometimes, especially when it comes to vulnerable

narcissism. So, because you're saying like in a book, what's the parentings, like the way people parent are making the kids have either a higher self-esteem or a lower self-esteem? Can you talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. So parental warmth and acceptance tends to lead to a secure self-esteem. And a secure self-esteem is a great thing, by the way. It is. I agree.

It's something we want in our children. And healthy self-esteem is one where just the child feels like they're enough. They are a worthy human being and then accept that and then move on, you know? The ones who get really preoccupied with their self-esteem, that's a different issue. That's like not healthy, you know? We want you to have a secure self-esteem and then focus on other things.

Right. We don't want you to be preoccupied with your self-esteem every day. But what is the parent, how is the, what is the parent doing or the adult doing with the child to make them have a lower self-esteem? What's the style? Okay, so the opposite of warmth and acceptance?

Yeah, what's the opposite of warmth? Well, in terms of narcissism, there is research showing that over praise for things that the child has not really actually earned does relate to grandiose narcissism. Having feeling like your child always has to pressuring them to always win the trophy, but always telling everyone my child's the best. That can lead over, it's called overvaluation in psychology. That's the technical term. Oh, really?

Is that what it's called? Yes, that's it. Because I see a lot of that around here. Did you know Americans spend an average of 90% of their time indoors? But did you also know that indoor air can be up to 100 times more polluted than outdoor air? Breathe easy with Air Doctor, the award-winning air purifier that eliminates 99.99% of dangerous contaminants like allergens, viruses, smoke, mold spores, and so much more. Air Doctor was actually voted best air purifier by Newsweek, though it's no surprise that

98% of Air Doctor customers agree. their homes airfield cleaner, safer, and of course, so much healthier. Unlike other air purifiers, Air Doctor captures invisible particles 100 times smaller than standard HEPA filters. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE to get up to $300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee, plus a three-year warranty, an $84 value free. So get this exclusive podcast-only offer com, using promo code HUSTLE.

You also talk about this in the book, that where does attachment style come into this, because if you're an anxious person, anxious attachment, all these things that does that play into someone's self-esteem as well? And does it, first of all, does it play into someone's self-esteem? Yes. Attachment is a whole different area beast, but the causal chain is not clear. A lot of people who have a genetic proclivity towards a certain personality trait, let's say there's a tendency towards a low self-esteem just as a baseline, that could lead to the

development of anxious attachment style, for sure. We also know people with anxious attachment style tend to have a little self-esteem. The causality is probably bidirectional. They feed off each other, but they're definitely related. Because what I thought was interesting was that how anxious attachment is, I didn't realize until I read your book that some of it is genetic. Everything is somewhat genetic. Hmm. Everything is somewhat genetic. Not just, well, because I thought like, so I've been, I was taught that attachment style is very much like a nurturing thing, like environmental, like how you were raised, what

were you doing? But you were talking about in your book. There's a genetic component to attachment styles. There really is. You can take two identical twins who have the same nurturing or non-nurturing parent, not identical twins, let's say fraternal twins who share 50% of the same genes. And you'll find a difference between if they have the identical same genes and how they react.

There is a difference between genes and foods, what colors our world. To me, it's all part of a broader personality temperament. You know, if you, some people have a temperament, maybe a not are such a rose colored glasses temperament, you know, whatever the opposite. They're naturally more pessimistic. That's the word I was thinking of. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, you bet, yeah. And that colors things or anxiety, you know? People with a lot of anxiety, right off the bat, you see some of these kids coming out of the womb crying at a more intense rate than other kids. And that already is setting them up for anxious attachment. Some people actually have avoidant attachments. So maybe that's not so much anxiety, it's just disagreeableness. They don't feel like they need people.

That's true. I mean, I know a lot of people like that too. I'm sure you do as well. I'm a little like that, to be honest. Really? I think I have some avoidant attachment style. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, okay with that. There's actually research showing two different types of avoidant attachment. There's one type that is correlated with high wellbeing and there's another type that is more correlated with psychopathology. I think

I'm the one with high well-being. There's like chosen, you choose to have avoidant attachment. Yeah. So that's interesting because I think, no, I think that's like, cause in your, again, when I was like saying earlier, like you're, like you, you in general just really fascinated me because like you've become, like you have a lot of background in this. Like you went to Yale, you went to Carnegie M fascinated me because like you have a lot of background in this. Like you went to Yale, you went to Carnegie Mellon. Like is that why you kind of went, you delved deep into the psychology? Because like I said, you were like kind of somebody who did all these things and you used yourself as a petri dish.

Right? Yeah, definitely. Earlier in my career, absolutely, I wanted to kind of prove people wrong, you know, all the hate naysayers, saying that I was stupid and that I couldn't even, they said I couldn't graduate. I shouldn't be able to graduate high school, you know, when I was in high school. And so I was like, okay, well, screw you. I'm going to not only graduate high school, but I'm going to go to Yale someday, you know? And like, so yeah, but that was early on, but that's not, and I have a whole chapter in the book about the underdog motivation and how

that can fuel you. I want to talk about that. That's why I was bringing it up. I think that the chip on the shoulder or the underdog motivation is a lot of times the fuel and the fire to kind of motivate people who otherwise wouldn't have self-actualized. Yes. So do you want to talk about this? Yeah, it's a big, the most common sort of, the most obvious is like Michael Jordan, who like creates enemies. So he has a reason to fight. So he has a form of motivation. But I think any of us can kind of tap into that motivation if we are feeling rejected.

But I don't think it's the most sustainable and healthiest in the long run. I'm glad my whole life is not revolving around an underdog motivation anymore. I'm also glad I'm not an underdog anymore. Both of those things I'm glad about. Does that change though? Does that happen often? If someone starts off as having that underdog mentality and then as they achieve success, does that mentality wane? Yeah, I think it must change. Well, I don't know. Again, Michael Jordan, I didn't wane. But he's one of a kind, right?

One of a kind, yeah. It does tend to. Because how do we, I think this is the big long question, it's on the cover of your book, but how can we discover in ourselves our greatest potential? You're asking the heavy-hitting questions today. Well, listen, you didn't come here to just talk about the weather, did you? No, I didn't. Although, let's be honest, the weather's been kind of shit lately. I know, today's been terrible.

But how can we, that's the whole reason why I created self-actualization coaching. We're actually in the middle of a six-month program right now. We're training coaches so that these coaches can help clients identify what is their greatest potential. So much of it comes down to this kind of existential humanistic perspective that I take. You know where we have to get in touch with this destiny within us and some of us avoid our destiny because we think it's destructive and some of and yet it's teaching us things that we really should be listening to.

Roel May the humanistic psychologist calls it the daimonic. He said, what is this guiding force, this destiny that has the power to overtake all of you? What is this thing within? Sometimes when it has the power to overtake all of you, all of you, that terrifies you and you run away from it and you evade your destiny your whole life But some of the most creative people have embraced it and have found a way to channel it for their greatest creativity But if someone's stuck right and they don't like they don't know how we're even to begin Can you talk do you have any like even in your coaching program? Yeah, what are some like actionable steps someone can take?

to Even see what their potential is? So yeah, we have a workbook called choose growth. We have all sorts of things where you try to constantly get in touch with like, what are the sparks during your day that really, you know, keeping in journals are really helpful way of doing this, getting in touch with like what aspects of your job are letting you up versus what aspects of your job aren't letting you up. Also learning character strengths and like you can take tests for free. Self-actualization test.com.

I put up a bunch of tests. Self-reflection and self-knowledge is a great first step. You may have certain strengths you didn't even know you had, right? And so first of all, I would say never give up. I would say always have this spirit of curiosity about yourself. So start there, know that curiosity and be like, well, okay, I'm stuck, but I just, I don't, I usually stuckness is a reflection of you're not really self-connected, you know? And so going through the process of deeper self-connection, a lot of people feel stuck because they hear other people's voices in their heads.

They'll hear like, you know, their mother telling them, you should do this or that, do you should that, or maybe you're thinking to yourself, maybe you ignore certain messages that are sending you because they're not society acceptable or they're not like, or you're thinking to yourself, maybe you ignore certain messages that are sending you because they're not society acceptable or they're not like, or you're like, I can't make money from that. So you like, I would just guarantee you that if you feel stuck and hopeless in a lot of ways, there are so many things that are passing you by signals within, as well as signals other people are sending you that you're really missing out on, you're not paying attention to. There's some really cool research on the difference between lucky people and unlucky people. This is

self-reported luck and people who report that they lead really lucky lives, like in a psychology experiment they are more likely to be open to new experiences and notice some good things that are happening during the experiment that the other people did not even notice because they're so focused on how unlucky they are in life. So much of this does relate to the victim mindset thing. That is, that's exactly it. So that's why this whole victim mindset is such a good thing to kind of like really delve into

because I think a lot of times that people who are stuck and not moving forward is because they are stuck in this victim mindset, but they don't even know they're in the victim mindset because they can't see what they can't see. So that's when that whole the whole self that's why I was curious like again like I've said this on the show tons of times like if someone doesn't have the self-awareness ability or the EQ to even know, or they can be, or they're just not able to connect the dots, what's the first step for someone to even know they even have this victimized debt? And then you talk about how do, you know, the difference between learned helplessness versus learned hopelessness, right?

Can you just kind of talk about both of those? Yeah, I could. Okay, good. There's this classic research by Martin Seligman and his colleagues looking at learned helplessness. It started with rats and dogs where they were shocked. And there's some ethical considerations about that as well. But I'm putting that aside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. After a certain amount of shocking, even when they opened up the cage, the dogs didn't realize that they could leave the cage. They had learned this sense of helplessness. And then they tried to extend this to humans as well. I don't know how much they, if they did shocking of humans, maybe they did, but it sounds terrible, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm following what you're putting. The thing psychologists do in the name of data. Of data, yeah.

But what they realized 50 years later is that they had gotten it completely wrong in humans. That in humans, the default state in humans is helplessness, but what is learned is hopefulness. So it's actually a theory of word hopefulness in humans, not a theory of word helplessness. And we have to remember that because a victim mindset is our default state of being. It's the easiest way to get attention, sympathy from others. Yeah, sure. When you're a kid, how many times did you lie to your mom about being sick? Or exaggerate a little bit like, hey, mom, my tummy hurts. I don't think I go to school too. It's the default state, but we have to overcome that. We have to rise above that

instinct if we're going to lead a life with agency and intentionality and reaching our highest potential. So do you think the rise of social media, TikTok, Instagram has made people's victim mindset even more like out of control? Because now you're becoming like you get a pat on the back for it, right? Yes, I do. So what should people do? Do they just not like how because technology is just, it's going, right? And it's so invasive in our lives, right?

How do, like, and you're getting a pat on the back for it. How do we kind of take those people, yet again, out of that mindset into this whole empowerment mindset? By the way, do you remember when empowerment was a big thing too? That was a whole trend for a while. When? Well, women's empowerment. Women's empowerment. Well, that's a thing. You know what the thing is?

I think that even with social media, this idea of women empowerment was a big thing. But the obsession over the trauma, all the pages that are obsessed with trauma, and even vulnerability, I guess, and authenticity is another one, they've override all the other stuff. So if you are feeling bad about yourself, that actually, you get brownie points for that. Right? That's what I've noticed. If you what? You get brownie points if you feel like you've been put upon or like, look, how about this? If you've been wronged by the world. If you're wronged by the world. Look even like you talk about the activism stuff in the book. Can

we talk about that? Yeah, of course. Okay. Can you please talk about it? Cause I think it's great that you put it in the book. Well, I have a section on narcissistic activism. There is research showing that the more you identify with certain causes, your whole life becomes about just those things and you feel entitled to special privileges because you have this cause. There's actually research showing that people who they're called virtuous victim signalers, people who feel the need to almost 24-7 signal to others how much they've suffered, but how angelic they are. That tends to be correlated with the dark triad of personality, things like narcissism, which we already mentioned, but also psychopathy and Machiavellianism and this sort of sadistic

kind of enjoyment in taking down others. So there are some darker personality traits that you see among some types of activists. And I should be very clear, not all of activism is bad throughout the course of human history. A lot of healthy activism has really moved society forward. But I think it's important to distinguish between toxic activism and healthy activism. Can we talk about the toxic activism? Yeah, it's not helping anything. It's just annoying everyone.

Give me an example. You talk about it in the book. What is an example? I don't know if I have a specific example. You don't have a specific example. Well, in the book, I talk about people who identify more strongly, like extremely with LBT causes, with environmentalism cause, with like a lot of the liberal, the standard liberal sort of things. So we often think about like, you know, authoritarianism or as just like a right wing phenomenon, but

there's emerging research suggesting there is a left-wing authoritarianism that mirrors kind of in a horseshoe way. They both meet together at some point, both the far right and the far left. It's left like 99% of people who are in the middle kind of shake their heads like, what's going on here? Right. It's not just on the right, it's on the left as well. Can you talk about some of the things that you've given us?

These causes that by themselves, there's not just on the right, it's on the left as well. Can you talk about some of the things that you've given us? These causes by themselves, there's not an issue with like, you know, there's no problem having, you know, believing in rights for gay, bisexual, you know, individuals, right? Lesbians. So whatever the whole rainbow stands for, don't make me say what it currently stands for. I think they added another letter or maybe not. There's a Q. Oh no, there's a-

LBGQ, no, LB- T and then there's a fight between should the T be part of it or not. Yes, that's the thing I didn't understand. There's a bifurcation within that community. I don't want to get into any of that, the bifurcation, but there's no problem having certain causes. But this research is showing what happens when you have a certain extremist mindset about the activism, where your way is the

right way. Anyone who doesn't agree with you deserves to be treated poorly, even violently. There's this kind of way of thinking that can be very damaging to society. So what's the call to action for that? What are the things that people have? What are the qualities of a dark triad, I think you called it? What's in that triad? What is those things? Well, that's the narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism.

Okay. So then what do people do about that? I guess is the question. Avoid these people like the play. Well, I know. But they have a squeaky wheel that gets the oil, right? Yeah. And it's like damaging to our society. It is. It's also we've lost nuance, which I'm trying to do right now because I, you know, I, I'm the last one who wants to be quoted as saying, you know, that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's bad to believe in certain causes.

No, that's not what you're saying. Well, that's definitely not what I'm saying. But, but I think we've lost all nuance because the loudest voices have taken over and make any other voice feel like there's no place for their voice. No, exactly. So you, so basically though, you're, so you basically, you were seeing the victim, you were saying that's why you're, you wanted to write the book because you saw this stuff happening and you wanted to kind of like, like the, what is it?

What other word? I love that you said something that you was like the, instead of saying like the trauma, I loved, you gave other options for how to talk about something. Survival stress? Like survival stress. Yes. Like you talk about how language makes such a big difference in how the, like how- I really think it does. It makes a big difference, right? Because if you think of yourself as someone who has trauma, you're going to act a certain way, right?

Yes. Yes. I mean, the self-talk, the way the narratives and the things we tell ourselves about the cause of why we are the way we are really does impact our empowerment versus whether or not we're going to have a victim mindset over something. Right. So how do we start? How do we start changing the way we talk to ourselves?

Start by changing the way you talk to yourself. Because what happens in our in our brain? Like if I heard that no matter how like what our brain doesn't know the difference between what we say or what we do. Like if we if we say something that our body acts as if it's actually true, correct? Yeah. Is that not true? Because I'm not the doctor, but you are. But I thought that's what a lot of other people have said to me that if- There is a whole psychology of self-talk and the real

importance of how we interpret certain situations. There's a whole field of cognitive behavioral therapy, right? That is all about, do we catastrophize things? Do we see things in black and white terms? The trauma thing is just, it's a word that has become exhausted. It's exhausting. In our society, because it's become everything.

It's become, this one word has, is now used to describe back pain, everything. You know? Oh yeah, there's a book out, Your Body Keeps Score. The Body Keeps the Score. It's an immensely popular book. Yeah. And it's become like a cult-like book.

And it's like, for me to even have some have a little bit of criticism over some of the things that are said in that book, drives them crazy. The ones that treat it like it's a religion, you know? But science is not a cult or religion. I mean, science, we have to look at the data where it comes, you know? There are a lot of limitations to that. You know, pre-existing personality traits matter too. Not everything is environmentally determined.

We don't live in a completely environmentally determined universe. Also, a lot of our choices are within our own control that we just refuse to take responsibility for. It's much easier to blame, much easier to blame that one thing that happened to you when you were four, then to at now age 50, take steps to lead a better, healthier, happier life. Right. Because also the rumination of it, right? It's a big part of it. It's a big part of it.

Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentous 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega-3 combo for months now, and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone. The Crea Pure Creatine boosts both physical and your mental performance.

The grass-fed whey tastes great with no weird aftertaste, and the Omega-3 is a must for recovery. Since adding these, my energy, my recovery, and my overall well-being has really improved. So if you want better performance, this is the way to go. Visit LivMomentis.com and use my code Jen for 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com code Jen for 35% off your first subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did.

What's your take on talk therapy? Interesting. Good questions. Yeah, thanks. You're a great interviewer. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Talk therapy is good, can be good. Yeah, it's like having a friend. Yeah, it is. That listens to you. That you pay a lot of money to.

That you're paying for unconditional positive regard. There are a lot of lonely people out there that often need a little bit of validation. There is a whole form of therapy now called affirming therapy that we're, and I don't know how I feel about this. No matter what mishugana you have going on with you. That's a Jewish. I got it right away. Mishugana is like crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever mishugana you have, you go to this affirming therapist and they just affirm it. Don't worry. It's good that you're a psychopath. Don't worry. Affirming care now, no matter whatever you are, it's great, you know, and it makes you feel good about yourself.

You know, I'm not convinced that's the best form of therapy, but that is a very popular form of therapy that's cropping up now. Is it? Where is that? Are you serious? Oh, yeah, it's a thing now. It's a really big thing. So if I were to Google a firm like, yeah, you go on psychology day, you're looking for a therapist. I'm looking for an affirming psychologist. Yeah. Yeah, no. So people are literally paying for someone just to kind of affirm that they, whatever

they say is- Whatever it is, acceptance, right? Now, look, I am a believer in Carl Rogers' notion of unconditional positive regard, but as even Carl Rogers made clear, acceptance doesn't necessarily mean liking or that you don't want to change. Self-acceptance is the first step to change. But change is also a good thing. If a lot of people are struggling horribly with depression or the experience of depression

or whatever it is and they're seeking, they need help. I don't know about how helpful the affirming part is, maybe as a first step, but there needs to be another step. Well, also, it kind of reminds me of just hanging around people who just validate you all the time. Yes. Movie stars do that all the time. It's like fast food.

It feels good in the moment, but you go home and you're the same person. Exactly. And like there's no growth there. There's no challenge. There's no nothing. That's right. That's right.

So is that really something that people are growing? I would kid you not. Wow. That's crazy. See, like I would think that also just over like, and I'm sure we both, we all know people who have been going to the same therapist for 20 years, twice a week, once a week. And at what point is it just like a bad habit that you're spending money on, right? Because, and or, and the rumination of talking about your problem. And when people

go to a therapist, it's like they put a label on you or a psychiatrist. Oh yeah, you have your OCD and ADD. And now that you think that you are these things, you walk through life. This goes back to the beginning of the podcast and you think that's what you are, unless you break free from those things and say, that's not going to stop me from trying to achieve this and go after that. These things are putting shackles on people's ankles a lot of times. This is why I prefer coaching. You know, I create a form of coaching, which is very forward looking as opposed to past look looking. Self talk, self therapy, self talk therapy. Yeah. I mean, it can be damaging. Like you're pointing out. It's not always great.

And it's also not for everyone. I saw a very funny Bill Maher, sort of, he was a podcast. And I love him. Yeah, me too. That's so funny. Yeah, I tend to agree with a lot of his... Me too. I tend to agree with almost everything lately. But I like people like him. I like people like Larry David, you know, I like these like

honest Jews. Yeah, yeah. Like, I just, like, there's like, you know, they say things that they, how they really feel even if it's not societally. Like Bill Maher is like, is he Jewish? Come to think of it, I don't know if he's Jewish. He's very pro-Israel right now. I mean, but then again, Larry David certainly is.

Yeah, Larry David. Of course, is. Wait, is Bill Maher Jewish? You know, I think he is. He's Jewish, but if your mom's Jewish, you're Jewish, right? Yeah. But he was talking about, he's like, you know. He's not a practicing Jew. He's like, look, I've done therapy and he's like, honestly, it's like,

I want them to push me a little more. They're like, oh, that's, oh, really? Okay. What am I getting out of that? So I think that it's not for everyone. I also don't think you should feel ashamed if you're in therapy and you're not getting something out of it. It can be awkward sometimes breaking up with a therapist, but sometimes it needs to happen. I had a therapist I didn't really like, to be honest. Really? Yes, to deal with mother issues.

And what happened? I felt like this therapist was being too hard on my mom. Yeah. I felt sorry for my mom. I didn't want to have bashing sessions about my mom. I had some issues with my mom. Yes, she's overprotective. She's crazy.

But she has a big heart. She means well. But then the therapist tried to have me convince that trauma was there and all this stuff that I was like, I don't know like I don't I don't I don't know if I agree with you I had your present with by the way, were you a psychologist already by this point? Yeah, this is recently recently So that's even better by the way, that's hilarious So I think they have a lot of therapists have to like feel like they're earning their pay, right? So they have to find somebody to blame it on.

Yeah. And they have to label you or else they're not doing their job. She's like giving me a victim mindset. Right. You're like, do you know I wrote this book on how to overcome? I wrote THE book. Yeah, THE book on how to overcome a victim mindset. And you're telling me, but this is the problem.

Yeah. Right? But I wonder if it's because people don't have enough, like the social element, right? Like people don't socialize anymore. People need an outlet. And do you think that's why a lot of people go to therapy or is it because they don't have someone they can trust? Like what do you think? This is more just a question like I would ask. What do you think the reason is that people are just going like now it's, it's become such a, it's become so popular to have a therapist that it's becoming someone's

part of everyone's habitual day. That wasn't how it was when I was a kid. And I don't have a therapist. I'm the only one of my friends by the way, who doesn't have one. And I get made fun of. That's horrible. You should not be meant to feel shame for that. In fact, I think sometimes choosing a coach or a therapist is a very wise choice. A coach? But I think I agree with what you said. Because a lot of times coaches push you forward and they're not doing the blame game.

Because in my opinion, blaming somebody is not going to move the puck. Look, I'm of mind that no one should feel shame for how they choose to heal. I argue that there's something called narcissistic for everything. For everything I have narcissistic. There's narcissistic spirituality. There's narcissistic. So, there are people who they'll go to one silent meditation retreat and they'll come back, they'll cancel half their friends because now they've had an epiphany that their friends are not as enlightened as they are.

You had one freaking yoga retreat. That doesn't make you more enlightened all of a sudden than all your friends, but they'll come back and they'll feel like they're more enlightened. So it's called the I'm enlightened and you're not effect. It's actually a real effect in psychology. Really? And what happens with that person? Does the pendulum swing back and they make amends or?

That answers your question. I don't know. I don't know about over time, but you do tend to see this effect after engagement in spiritual practices. I also could see this happening with therapy. The person who goes to a therapist, you know, thinks that they're now a better person than those who don't go to therapy. You see this actually in so many different domains. You see this a lot in the fitness community with like fat phobia, you know, with like, oh, because you work, like if you were overweight

and you lost a lot of weight, and that's your story, you know, those people tend to like really have a deep, visceral like reaction to fat people, you know? Because they represent to them what they hated about themselves back in the day. People tend to really have a deep, visceral reaction to fat people. Really? Because they represent to them what they hated about themselves back in the day. Right. Yeah, but that's horrible. That's true, but that's also like most of times people hate things that remind them

of themselves. Yeah. When you don't like something about someone, typically it's because you see it. Or who you used to be and you feel like you've overcome as well. Exactly. So that makes actual sense to me. That makes sense to me in a bat. It's a really, it's true. And then you shame them. Which by the way, you talk about the shame in the book, right? I'm not about shaming. Yeah. Yeah. Like my tone in this book is what I call honest love. I'm not trying to shame anyone for their choices.

I want what's best for everyone. I want people to figure that out for themselves and then to go after it, not with a victim mindset. Right, right, right. You're saying something about with the shame, people tend to feel shame because how people see them in society. Yes, that's exactly right. Even if we didn't have shame, so people might not have had any shame over something and

then they talk about something they're excited about and then they see how it's reacted, and then they're like, oh shit, now I have shame over this. I didn't admit it ago. Right, right, right. Now you do. Right, right, right, right, now you do. Last time I'm telling anyone what Bobby and I did sexually in the bedroom last year. Right, right, right.

Because. Because you want to get judged, that's it, right? Yeah, yeah. It has nothing to do with like what you actually did, what the deal, what anything. It's how people react to you. Yeah. Yeah, we're so sensitive as a social species, you know?

But isn't it't interesting you could have no shame at all of things you're doing in your life if you never had to talk to another human. If I never told anybody. You would just blissfully go about your life doing what you want to do. I was going to say, isn't that then, do you have guilt? Because is guilt when you just, when you don't tell somebody, can you feel it? Well, guilt is different than shame.

Right. That's what I'm saying. It's more guilt. Yeah. Guilt is actually more productive. With guilt, you've done something to cause someone harm and you want to make a repair, but you don't take it personally. You don't say you're bad. Shame is something different.

Sometimes with shame, you're not even harming someone else. Social approval, you know? Everyone is so judgy these days. Have you noticed that? Yes. Are you joking me? But if you go on like social media, everyone is judging everyone for their life choices. That's what it is, but it's all about polarization, right? And there's no, it's like you were saying, there's no in between.

You're either on this side or you're that side. God forbid. You're right. Either you're sex positive or a conservative Christian. Those are the only two options we got right now. Yeah, and not at all. And if you even are on one side and you see something on the other side

that makes a little sense and you make mention of it, you'll get bashed by whoever your contingency is. Oh, absolutely. Or it would be like, every now and then, something comes along that Trump does that I'm like, I'm glad he's doing that. And it's like all my friends, you can't even, it's like this guy can't ever do any right.

I know, but that exactly. You know what I'm saying? By the way, do I know what you're saying? I mean, I think I said one thing on social media that I was really happy about. And people went nuts. Yeah. Because I was like, I was, I was basically applauding the devil, right? But then if on the other side, you know what I mean? So it's very, very hard. Like, so that's why I'm saying like,

it's even, it's hard to have, right now, I feel we're in a very interesting time because your friend group has to also be who you're politically sided with. I think it's a shame. Right? Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. And if you are not sided with. I think it's a shame. Right? You're right. You're absolutely right. And if you are not sided with them, you will literally have no, you will lose that person

as a friend. That's right. It is. We've never been in a time like this in, in history. I don't think. It's a crazy time that we're living in right now. Isn't it just insane? Yeah.

It's, it's absolutely insane. Excuse me. Everything is politicized. Everything is. I can say, I wish everyone loved today and I'll get, oh, you Dems are always virtue signaling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, virtue signaling, what?

It's true though. And then everything's a conspiracy theory. But what's the psychological, what is the psychosis on that? That why we cannot be friends with the other side now? What's happening in our society psychologically? Well, that's what politics has become is that politics is now focusing on what's bad about the out group as opposed to what's good about your own in group.

And that's just what politics has become. Articles have been written about this by political psychologists that that's the age of what we're living in. There is a term for this, but I'm blanking on it right now, but that they coined, but that is, you know, everyone's only focusing on, you're only defining yourself by what you hate about the other, you know? Yeah. And that's very different than defining your group based on what you love about your group. You know, that's nobody loves their act. No, it actually loves their own group anymore. Right? I think that's, you know, that's so funny.

Do death cards love their group? No, they don't. But that's actually very true. I didn't even think of it that way. Because it's not controversial at all. What I think was interesting. I think that's a hundred percent accurate, right? Because how people connect is through misery in Joy's company, right? Correct. So if you and I were connected by bashing Trump, let's say, as opposed to talking about what we have in common, it's not as interesting. No, trauma bonding.

Right. But we're trauma bonding and we're connecting over hating somebody else. And I suppose that's what we're doing right now. You know? That's what we're doing right now. But know, that's what we're doing right now. But but that happened. I think that's the way people socialize today. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. No, not maybe.

Yes, you are right. That is the way people socialize. It's in the air. It's in the air. How do we find a happy where's the pendulum come back? I know you're not like watch. You are a mind reader. Actually, I know you're not like, well actually you are a mind reader actually. I was going to say, I know you're not a mind reader, but you are.

But as a psychologist, where do you see the trends going for human behavior in this way for society? Yeah, I just wish I could be more optimistic about the trend lines. But I think we're in the middle of something historically right now and it needs to go through it before it gets better. And again, I really wish I could just lie to you and say I feel great sense of optimism because I am usually such an optimistic guy. But if you read the tea leaves, But if you read the tea leaves, we're going through a real change in leadership, a change in what it means to be America.

What does it mean to be an American? And a lot of conceptualizations of, we've never been more divided on morality issues and everyone thinks that they're the most moral person of them all. Right? Exactly. It's true.

And it needs to go, we need to get through it to get out to the other side. Yeah. I see. I think we're in a bad place personally, but- But doesn't mean you can't do your best. You can't do, exactly. To show up in this world how you want to show up. There's my optimism.

There's your optimism. Okay, well on that though, how about cultivating psychological flexibility? Yeah, that's super important because there's a whole research literature on the ACT approach to psychology, ACT, where you develop a psychological flexibility that allows you to change your goals, change your even if you're not feeling like you're in the mood to do something, you change based on your higher values. Where do you really want to go?

I have this whole sailboat model of self-actualization. Where is the port you want to sail to? Get really clear on that. When you get really clear on that, a lot of your momentary by momentary decisions change and are different. And psychological flexibility is the opposite of what's called experiential avoidance. A lot of people have experiential avoidance for things. They avoid things that may make them feel uncomfortable.

As all the research shows, experiential avoidance is not the way to growth. Well, that's why they say like, I've seen a lot of a lot that the idea of just overall, like psychological flexibility, every type of flexibility adaptability is how people that's those are the most healthy people in everything in life, right? Being able to like go with the punches and change and yes, and yes, you know, it's called different things depending on what researcher you are. And but it's all the same. It's all the same. Yeah.

George Bonanno calls it the flexibility mindset. Yeah. He says that's the most important thing for resilience, you know. But yeah, I mean, that's where it's at is having that flexibility, not even like having a flexible identity as well. It's lacking these days. People are so- Hard set. I am a Democrat.

Yeah. Therefore, don't even talk to me about the good anyone else could do if they're not a Democrat too. Or I am a Republican. I don't mean to pick on the Democrats. Whatever it is, I am this, I am that. And we've become such an identity-obsessed culture where everything revolves around that, that we're not leaving ourselves flexible to different ways of being, different ways of

interacting with others, with perspectives that may seem very different to the way we think, but getting curious about it, being like, huh, my identity isn't so rigid that I can't accommodate this other worldview at all. It's saying you can, you can, you can integrate multiple things in this world. Right, right, right, right. No, I think that's, I agree 100%. What else do you want to talk about from your book?

Is there anything we're leaving out that's important that you want to talk about? I mean, part one of the book is all about all the ways that you're a victim to your own inner self. You know, we often talk about like being a victim to external circumstances, but part one is all about being a victim to your own need for self-esteem, for people-pleasing, for your past, to be a victim to your past, these sorts of things. People-pleasing is a big one too.

Yes! That's a big one too. Yes, do you identify with that at all? I don't think so. I don't think I'm a people-pleaser. That's cool. But I do say, what are you smiling at? Am I a people pleaser?

Yeah, that's what I thought. That's not one of my problems. I have other issues way bigger than that, but that's not one of them. Are you a people pleaser? I'm a recovered people pleaser. Really? What comes with that?

What comes with being a people pleaser? Well, I think part of it is, it's a good thing. Like you have empathy, right? You don't want to hurt people's feelings, but I've lived long enough on this planet at this point that I've noticed that not everything you do to piss someone off was anything you actually did. Yeah, exactly. That's what recovered people pleasers or people who want to be recovered like me need to really realize you can do you know like

So like an easy example is I'm in the uber with this guy on the way here people are honking their horn in him We're trying to figure out what the heck is going on people. You know, like he's like I'm doing everything right I'm moving in the straight in my lane people honking their horns. Oh, how dare you fuck you Whatever I don't know what a curse But it's like you can go and have the best of intentions And you still and you still won't please everyone. In fact, the more there's a paradox actually, it's interesting the more you Try to live a life where you don't ruffle any feathers like you try to do I do everything right I'm gonna try to dot every eye the more you actually piss people off. That's the truth. Isn't that it's a deep truth

Isn't that that is like Murphy's the truth, isn't that? It's a deep truth. That is like Murphy's Law though, isn't that true? Maybe, it's related. It's also like no good deed goes unpunished, right? Yeah. Isn't that so true? Yeah, you can't live your life making your decisions so that it pleases someone else. At a certain point, you lose your authenticity, you lose your soul.

You do, you lose your soul. Unfortunately, then you're recovering So you're okay though right now. I'm I'm in a good place This book is is a real is really like the voice my voice and where it's at in 2025 I don't think I could have written this book in 10 years ago. No, no, no No, no, cuz you what. Because you, because why? Oh my God. My books were always so like trying to please everyone. No, no. Really? Yeah. Well, not, I mean, maybe I'm being too hard on myself, but they were

definitely just sugary sweet books. You know, this book has some. Well, this was a little bit more. You're pulling out some like stops there a little bit. A little edgier. A little edgier. I'm living on the wild side a little bit more like you're pulling out some like stops there a little bit. A little edgy. A little edgier maybe. A little edgy. I'm living on the wild side a little bit.

But your stuff that you talked about in earlier years about intelligence, that's not exactly that. That's true. I did try to challenge the system. That's true. But there's. But why? Tell me why.

I love the intelligence part. So you can talk about it all day if you want. Thank you. thank you. Well, I had for many, many years, I thought my mission on life was to redefine intelligence. For the first 30 years of my life, I think I thought that that's why I was on this planet, was to take on the IQ and researchers and school psychologists and change the education system and show that we need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence. and researchers and school psychologists and change the education system and show that we need to broaden our way

of thinking about intelligence. And I wrote a book called Ungifted, which outlined a lot of my view on that. But, and then I was like, oh, I'm still alive. You know, I wrote that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's next? And you keep seeing there are higher mountains to climb, even you don't know it at the time.

What was your main theme about intelligence that you researched? Well, neurodiversity, the idea that there are people with a lot of hidden strengths and forms of intelligence that we really don't pick up on in an IQ test or at school, in a classroom. And I really wanted to shine a spotlight on those individuals. They don't just have to be kids, they could be adults too. Totally.

I think that we get really stuck in this idea that if you're not academically smart, then you're not smart at all. And there's so many other- A lot of really stupid academics. Most academics can be really stupid. Well, a lot of them are socially inept. They don't know how to socialize.

They don't have an EQ. They don't have, right? They don't have emotional intelligence. Maybe they're not like talented. They don't have like spatial awareness and spatial intelligence. There's a lot of different ways. I don't have spatial intelligence.

You don't? I suck at spatial. But you know you're- But I have EQ, I have EQ. You do? Yeah. Are you surprised? I don't know. I mean, I don't know you're- But I've E.Q. I've E.Q. You do? Yeah. But I think- Are you surprised? I don't know. I mean, I don't know you well enough, but I think you have a lot of academic intelligence.

You can retain a lot of information. Yes, but I'm bad at directions. Well, you can be bad at directions, but like you've sprouted out, like you quoted a bunch of people in this podcast. Like you're like, but Carl blah, blah, blah says that. I am very scholarly. You're very scholarly. It's true. So in all of your learnings and intelligence, what are some very cogent points that you can share with us?

Like based on everything I've ever studied in my life? Success and intelligence. It's all about the habits and the hustle. It's definitely about the habits and the hustle. It's definitely about the habits and the hustle. If you ask me. Yes, okay. However, I'm asking you. And what I mean by that is, so much of life is really connecting with yourself and really getting deep, deep down into and taking responsibility for your whole self, not just the parts of

you that you like. There's, I call it the authenticity bias. We only circle the adjectives that are positive and say, that's the real me and all this stuff isn't the real you. But really taking responsibility for your whole existence and being passionate about what you do and really putting that grid into it. You know, if you don't have the self belief, you know, like none of this stuff is gonna, you know,

I hate to say it, but no one's coming to save you. Yeah, no idea, that's true. The reason why I was asking, I really wanted to kind of get into the intelligence thing is I did my first TED talk a long time ago was about the idea of being bold. And I talk about this idea that it went like pretty viral, that I'm a big believer that it's not about how smart.

I think boldness is way more important than intelligence. I think if you're bold enough to go after something, those are the people that win in life. Because a lot of times when you're smart, right, academically you tend to overthink, you tend to have analysis paralysis, you're very myopic in one way versus people who are out there going. So that's why whenever I see it, that's how I initially found, because everything about my stuff was around intelligence and boldness and this, you came up and I loved what you were talking about because it's so true

and it's so true and it's so important and I think people get so stuck on like, oh, I'm stupid because you've got bad school grades, but you could be really, really brilliant in other ways that will, and you will supersede the rest of those people. Yeah, for sure. If you want to sell my insights about intelligence specifically, I really do have this whole theory where I argue that we can distinguish between intellectual curiosity and intellectual sort of raw processing speed, you know, so to speak. There are a lot of people that don't have a shred of intellectual curiosity, but are

good at solving, you know, IQ type problems and they can spit out complex math equations, but are not particularly curious about getting to know others as well as intellectually curious. I think no matter what your IQ is, you can still be to a certain degree. There is intellectual disability, which makes it very difficult, but we all can be more curious about the world, how it works and about what the truth is about things. So many smart people right now who are not particularly curious about the truth. Yeah, well, 100%. I think that's why the whole curiosity piece, I think, is the most important part.

Because if you're a curious person, that's the pathway to learn for opportunity, for communication, for connection. If you don't have that piece, you could be solving problems all day and all night and you're going to get nowhere fast, really. Like you'll have the ceiling is much lower. What you said. Yeah. Thank you.

All right. Well, Scott, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. What a wide ranging conversation. I know I wanted to cover, like I said, I wanted you here for a long time and I may have seen a little sporad, like a little bit all over the place because there are so many things like I told you that I like that you talk about. Well, you were great.

Oh, thank you. You were great. The book is great. Rise Above is really, really good. And I just, like I said, keep on doing what you're doing. You do a lot of research, right? I do. Like, you're doing. You do a lot of research, right? Like, how do you remember it? You remember everything. I have a bit of something within psychology where I can remember everything. Yeah. Like, do you have like a photographic memory? No, only within psychology. But you can remember everything you've ever seen in it? Cause it's pretty good.

Some people have said that, have said that about me. Yeah. There's something about that where I remember every study I've come across and can, it comes, it comes back to me at the right time. I don't know. I don't have that about everything in my life. No, but with that it works. So do you, as a cognitive psychologist, you do a lot of research, you have your coaching

program, you write books. Yes, the Center for Human Potential. And so what else are you doing with your time? That's a lot of stuff. Well, no, there's a lot. So this book has come out, podcast. I write for my sub stack called Beautiful Minds. It's my sub stack.

And this fall I'll be full time at Barnard College Columbia teaching. Full time? Yeah. I'm in the process of moving back to New York. You are? Yes. yeah. I'm in the process of moving back to New York. You are? Yes. Congratulations. Thank you.

Full time, huh? At least for a year, at least for a year. Do you know that they just took away $400 million in funding? I'm very aware of everything going on over there right now. I'm sure you do. What do you think about that? I mean, let's talk about that another time. Offline?

Okay, okay. So congratulations though. That's a great job. A great job on the book, on the new job. And where do people find, people can find the book wherever, on Amazon, wherever. And you're on Instagram? Insta, I'm on Insta, Scott, at Scott Barry Kaufman, or the amazing Dr. Scott, if you want to follow my Magician page. Right. That's exactly it. You promised you're going to do it with me after. Maybe off camera.

Off camera, yes, of course. Okay. Thank you guys. Thank you for being on here. Ciao.