Habits and Hustle - Episode 486: Mark Cuban: Why Most Entrepreneurs Hire Wrong (And Go Broke)

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Listen to the full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThY-UBFtGK8  Even billionaires struggle with self-doubt. In this Fitness Friday excerpt from my conversation with Mark Cuban, he opens up about still feeling intimidated in rooms full of domain experts, why he believes most entrepreneurs hire the wrong people at the wrong time, and his surprising take on what business you're actually in. We also discuss his prediction for what will make cryptocurrency boom again and his unconventional take on why brand advertising is a waste of money for startups. Mark Cuban is a billionaire entrepreneur, owner of the Dallas Mavericks, and star investor on Shark Tank. Despite his success, he remains refreshingly honest about the psychological challenges of high-level business and the mistakes he's seen countless entrepreneurs make. What we discuss: Why Mark Cuban Still Gets Imposter Syndrome Around AI Experts The "Hamster Wheel" Hiring Mistake That Kills Startups Why He Says "You've Got to Be Able to Solve Problems Yourself" His Honest Take on Losing Money in the Voyager Crypto Collapse The Difference Between USD and USDC That Cost People Millions Why the NBA Thought They Were in the Wrong Business (And How He Fixed It) His Prediction for What Will Make Crypto Boom Again Why Brand Advertising is "Typically a Waste of Money" for Startups The Two Things Every Business Must Sell: Differentiation and Path of Least Resistance Thank you to our sponsor: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohen and use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Find more from Mark Cuban: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mcuban/  Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements

Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. Hey, friends, you're listening to Fitness Friday on the Habits and Hustle podcast, where myself and my friends share quick and very actionable advice for you becoming your healthiest self. So stay tuned and let me know how you leveled up. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Momentus.

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both men and women who want peak physical and cognitive performance. So if you're serious about leveling up, Go to live momentous.com and use code Jen for 20% off. Just act now. Start today. Jen for 20% off. Live momentous. Entrepreneurs tend to think, okay, I'm hiring this amazing marketing person and he or she is going to know what to do.

And then they tell that to their investors because that's typically why they're hiring a marketing person. And they say, oh, this person's amazing. You know, our next quarter is going to be great. Then it's not. Then they go to the next marketing person. Totally. Then they're in this hamster wheel again, and they're screwed.

It's also relying on other people. Well, yes, and that's the whole thing, right? You've got to be able to solve the problems yourself. Self-reliant. Now, you know, at some point your business gets bigger and you have to learn how to do a lot of other things. You know, when you go to five people, it's one thing. You go to 10 or 15. It's another challenge, you know, as you learn how to manage and deal with people.

But at the same time, if you're not great at your core competency, how are you going to train those people? Right. How do you going to know what the goals are for the organization and how to communicate to them, how to do what you need them to do? Right. You know, and but every entrepreneur goes to that terror, right? I've gone through it's like, oh, shit, you know, can I do this, right? Or am I smart enough or good enough or talented enough to do these? Yeah.

I mean, we all have imposter syndrome. I still have imposter syndrome. No way. Oh, hell yeah. You walk into a circumstance. I'm like, and there's name people that names anybody would recognize. And I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? No way.

Oh, yeah, all the time. Who would you be intimidated by? I'm not going to get named names, but yeah, for sure. But there are people that you want. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Really? And it's not like an Elon Musk or whatever.

No, I know. It's just somebody who has domain knowledge. Like, if I'm sitting in a meeting, we're discussing artificial intelligence. Yeah. Like, I understand artificial intelligence and I've done a lot of reading, so I have a good grasp of it. But this person has created neural networks and models that, you know, have a billion parameters, things that I won't even know how to start to do.

Yeah. I can understand the conversation. Right. The concept. Right. Yeah. But I'm not going to know operationally how to execute on it. Right.

That's just scary. It is scary. Because you're afraid that, okay, did I read enough? Right. Because they're living this day to day. Yeah. And I'm never going to catch up and know this day. Sitting down with the Mavs, you know, with Jason Kidd there.

He's forgot more about basketball than I'll ever know. Right. And so you just, you know, it's just. you know, it's just... But you're his boss technically, so maybe you can teach you on the side. I don't know. Yeah, but, you know, I can read and learn and add the value that I add, you know, for analytics, et cetera, whatever it may be. But yeah, everybody's going to have that self-doubt. The question is, what business are you in? Because a lot of companies don't even know.

Yeah. Like when I got to the MBA, they thought they were in the basketball business. I know. But you changed that whole team around. Well, it's not just a team, right? The NBA... Yeah, the NBA used to think they marketed basketball. Oh, that's true, yeah. But, you know, I sat there with him. I said, okay, name the last game you went to and tell me what the score was. Nobody remembers unless it was just a big game. Right.

Right. Name your favorite dunk or shot. No one remembers anyone. Right. Now, tell me who you were with. And everybody knows. Everyone remembers that. Do you remember the first game you went to with your parents, your aunt, your uncle, whatever?

Yeah. The emotional part. Yeah, because that's why you go because it's the one place you can scream and yell. Yeah, and you do. Yeah, and I do, right? But where else? You know, you're not going to see me yell here or there or whatever. But when you go to a game, you know, if, you know, you feel that energy and everybody knows they're part of the entertainment, right? Because you're yelling defense, defense. And that balls in the air for a game winning or losing shot. And everybody's holding their breath. And if it goes through, you're high-fiving and hugging people you've never seen before in your life. That's so true. That's what makes going to a game special, feeling that energy. And they thought it was about, you know, oh, you know, who has the prettiest jump shot. Yeah. You're right. It's all about the emotional part. It's all about the emotional attachment because that's what sports are. And that's what makes sports different than any other

business. And I had to explain that to them. It was just like, you know, when Apple, which has the biggest market cap in the world has a great quarter, they don't throw parades in Cupertino. No, they do not. Right? When the Lakers or Mavericks or whoever win a championship, the whole city goes insane. It's so true. You know, that's unique to sports. And you have to recognize what business are you in. Basketball is the platform, but emotion and entertainment is what we sell. So how did you turn it? Like, so you bought the Mavericks, by the way. I mean, at, by the way, great investment for you. Yeah, it's really good. What, 285? You went for $285 million and now it's worth like $2.5. Oh, a lot more than that. How much now is it worth like $4? I'm not going to sell it.

Oh, why would you? I mean, yeah, you're not going to sell. But I'm just curious. It turned out to be under value, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty amazing, though. It is crazy. And that's, you bought it purely on just passion for basketball. I mean, I still play pickup, you know, so it tells you, you know, I can go out before the game starts and just get up shots, you know, on my own court, you know, my own arena. That was so, can you, would you ever, when you were a kid, did you ever think that that was ever, ever going to happen?

Never, never, never in my wildest dreams that had ever crossed my mind. It really didn't cross my mind until after I sold my company and had enough money and it was like, now what? Shit. Yeah. Now I can put my money where my mouth is. But you were smart. Can you explain why? Like, how did you even think?

Because I, like, you took, you got, when Yahoo bought broadcast.com, you got it in stock, right? Yes. And you turned, you had to hedged it or something. Yeah. What does that even mean to get it into cash? So it was a public, you know, when we got sold to Yahoo, we were a public company who paid us in stock. And because Yahoo also was a public company, you could sell options on it. So I could sell calls, which gave up part of the upside, but allowed me to buy something

called puts, which protected my downside. Wow. And so I sold calls, bought puts, that's called a hedge, and I did it for my entire position. And when the whole bubble burst for the dot-com error, you know, I actually made more money. And so, yeah, it's been called one of the top 10 trades of all time. Of all time. Yeah. Because that, like, changed your entire life. Well, of course. Because there were a lot of people who made a lot of money in stock and on paper and just thought all disappear. If it wasn't for that, like that little decision point. Yeah, you wouldn't. know who I am. I would never know who you were. Like, you sold the first one for $6 million or something, like, which is not great for, which is great. Which is great. 20, 30 year old, right. But it's not,

you know, it's not billions of dollars. And then, like, you bought this company, you bought the Mavericks from, how did that, from Ross Perra? I was, yeah, he didn't care about basketball. It was a real estate deal for him. Right. But I was a season ticket holder and somebody connected me and, like, in less than a month, I bought it. And I'm sure you didn't see at showtime. Yep. That's amazing. And so do you go to? all the games? Unless my kids have something. Unless, well, don't the kids also want to go to, but now they're probably, I think he's

obsessed with it as you are? My son is becoming more and more. So my daughter, my middle daughter likes it, my oldest daughter, it's just, yeah, it's just social, yeah. Yeah, just for the social part. Yeah. That's amazing. So basically right now, it's the, it's the basketball and it's cost plus. Those are the two bigies. Well, cost plus basketball, you know, except for free agency, basketball kind of runs itself. Yeah. Were you at Summer League just now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was there, yeah. And I do it because I love it, right? Well, yeah, why do people go anyway, like your level?

Like, are they just going to see the players and all that stuff? Yeah, well, it just depends. For me, I just like basketball. Yeah, you're a different story. But, yeah, you know, you've got to recruit and you've got to identify talent and all that kind of stuff. It's just like hiring programmers or hiring videographers or hiring producers or whatever. But you just like love it so much. Yeah, no, I enjoy it.

Yeah. Wow. So what was the other, okay, I lost what I was going to say to you. Hold on. I think that's basically, well, where were we before I talked about the summer league, the thing, the, no, not the other thing, too. What was the other thing that's going to ask you? Just about entrepreneurial stuff.

Just entrepreneurial stuff. I don't even remember what I was going to say. Do you have anything else you want to say? What were we talking about entrepreneurs? We're talking about entrepreneurs failure. I mean. How about it? Sure.

Sure. So for the, this is the mirror. Yeah. I know I saw Shark Tank. I got to put that over there. Yeah, exactly. What was the question? You talked about like these companies not raising or not advertising and making

margin. That's what you talk about a lot is that what's your margin? Forget about the top line. Obviously with like Facebook and Instagram, there's been an opportunity for companies to scale using ads. Well, depends on how much money you have. So the question about, you know, spending money for advertising, whether it was search or other things. It depends what type of company you are. You know, I think for most entrepreneurial companies, particularly startups, that you have to know what sells your product. Now, if you're just trying to get scale and you're selling it direct to consumer, you're probably going to have to advertise unless you find a better way to do it virally, right? But you have to know what sells your product. Like with Alyssa's, you know,

it's... I love the always use her. Yeah, it's easy, right? Yeah. Cost plus drugs, it's easy. It's easy. Right? Yeah. You know, we have another company Wild Earth, which is vegan dog food. It's harder because you have to explain it. Yeah. The education piece is... Yeah, so there's an education piece. But the challenge now is because of the changes Apple made to privacy, getting a return on advertising span Roaz is much more difficult. Yeah. And so you're having to become a lot more innovative in how you sell your products, you know, in streaming products. Whatever it is, you've got to find what the most cost-effective way to go is. Now, part of the challenge is that learning process.

So I'm never a fan of spending a boatload. I'm a fan of test a lot. Test and retest, test and learn, because it always evolves. And spending for search engine advertising or Facebook ads, whatever it may be, YouTube, you're competing with everybody in your category. And that's getting the price higher and it's getting the returns lower in a lot of respects. So you've got to understand what the compelling aspect is for people to say yes. You know, what is the path to least resistance for you getting someone to say yes?

and you don't want to go all in. And the other thing I'll say for startups is I'm not a fan of brand advertising. You're not. No, not even a little bit. You earn your brand and your brand captures an identity based off of your execution, right? What do you mean to your customers? Right. That is your brand.

Let the customers do. Yeah, the customers define your brand. If you're trying to show pretty pictures and people running on the beach and all this and you're kind of, you know, virtue signaling to your business. Yeah. That's typically a waste of money. Unless you're Pepsi or Coke or whatever. And, you know, and then the other thing that I see a lot of companies make mistakes,

and they hire a marketing or finance, whatever, and they just do MBA 101. Yeah. Right. This is what I learned in, you know, in finance or entrepreneurship or my MBA classes. So this must be what you do. Right. No. Right.

context matters a lot. You know, what's your competition doing? How do you differentiate yourself? And you always want to focus on your differentiation. Business is about selling two things. How you're different and why you're the path to least resistance. So the people have a reason to buy. And maybe you can encapsulate that is how do you reduce your customer stress?

How about community now? I feel like everybody's doing two different things. One is trying to build a community. Sure. Right? The other is attaching to a cause. Yeah. Right. Having a mission is all good. Having a mission, right? And, you know, community typically with

NFTs, you see that right. That's what I was like avoiding. Yeah, that's right. But with community, again, it's got to be organic. And it's great to set up a Discord server or set up a Facebook group and have somebody that you work, that works for you or you even, I try to do it myself, a lot of cases. Yeah. Be responsive to everybody because you get to learn about your customers. Right. So community is great, right? Right. And it should be part of every business. That, to me, that's part of the blocking and tackling. Right. You know, it's like answering your emails or having an info email address. Right. That's, so, okay, so that's actually, I mean, that's interesting because I found, that's the hardest part for companies to do is build that community, right? Yeah,

it takes time, but it takes happy customers because you can work against you to. Yeah. Yeah, because if your customers are not happy, you're toast. Yeah. Because that community is just going to turn on you so fast. 100%, especially now, you know. You know I'm all about finding an edge. The small daily habits that give you more energy, focus, and resilience. But that's why I am hooked on mana vitality. Most people are mineral deficient, and that means low energy, brain fog, slow recovery, and dull skin. But mana flips the switch by giving your body a complete spectrum of minerals. It actually knows how to use. We're talking Shilajit from the Himalayas, Ormas from the Dead Sea, and marine plasma from the ocean, plus amino acids and 88 other trace minerals.

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but like the whole cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, blockchain, blah, blah, NFTs. So the whole, by the way, I had a lot of money in Voyager also. Yeah, I did too. A lot. So is it gone now? No, I don't think it's gone, no. It's not? You might not get all of it back.

So if you had US dollars, USD, you'll get it all back. I will? Yes. Yeah. So not USCC, but USD. There's two different things. USD was stored, was in a bank account. USDC is still considered crypto.

Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Because that's like I was. Do you know which one you have? I don't know. I got to check now. Because I just found out, obviously, a couple days ago about this, I was like mortified.

Yeah, it's brutal. Yeah. It's hard. The whole thing. Because also, it was such height. It was such, it was so hype. They made a mistake. I mean, it's like, look, I've been investing in a long time and I've seen companies

make mistakes for things that were supposed to be riskless. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, nothing's ever riskless, right? But close enough. Yeah. I mean, I remember I had a bank call me.

I had a lot of money in the bank. And fortunately, they called me and said, this bank's about to, go under. And so you better pull your money out now. And so, you know, I was fortunate. But unfortunately, Voyager did a deal with this company called 3AC, 3 A3A3 Capital, and it looked good on paper, but the company basically lied about their finances. And, um, wow. Yeah, because Voyager is a public company in Toronto. I actually even owned stock. I bought stock. You know, and so did I buy, I'm Canadian too. So from Toronto. Toronto. Yeah. So I bought stock in the company on the Toronto Exchange thinking, okay, you know, but when 3AC went bankrupt, it just had that

contagion. But, you know, in reading all the filings, basically what Voyager is saying is, you know, we have a, we have, the USDA is cash in the bank at their bank, right? Right. And so if you have that, you'll get 100% back. The USDC in crypto, it really depends on how much they're able to collect from, from, from, The stat one. Yeah.

What's that? I have the other one. Not the one I'm going to get back. Yeah, the USDC. Yeah. And I had a lot of USC there too. Yeah. Because it was making 8.5%.

It was making, exactly. Yeah. And so, and this is why I was making 8.5%. Yeah. Exactly. And so hopefully, you know, if what they say in their filing is accurate and I have no reason to believe it's not. And the judge that's dealing with the bankruptcy agrees, then they'll be able to put

consumer accounts first to get probably 60, 70% of the crypto back. Oh, really? Yeah. And then what they've said in their filings in public that they're going to try to do is for the other 30 or 40%, because they're bankrupt, the old stock that I own is worthless, right? Right. They'll try to, in the new company, they'll recreate it and give stock and tokens to those people to hopefully, if it turns out to be worth any thing, make up the Delta.

Wow. So what do you think? Okay. I mean, obviously you're like very involved, you invest in a lot of this stuff. People like me and probably a lot of more, I would say a majority of the population don't only understand this whole idea. But then what happens is we get like not pressure, kind of pressure. No, it's pressured. Yeah, it's like anything else. Everybody's making money. Everybody's like telling me that's like crazy monopoly money. So then I feel like I'm missing out. And then I put a bunch of money in. You got to fight that feeling. Tell me about it. Now you know, yeah. And so the question is, like, is there a way to educate people properly because...

You just got to do the work. I mean, I knew you were going to say that. It's just no shortcuts. I wish there were. This is one area that you're hard. So one difference between, look, stocks are the same way. Yeah. Right?

So if you look at your stock portfolio, if you have any tech stocks at all, it's gotten crushed. Everything's getting crushed. Yeah. And it's gotten crushed as much as Bitcoin or Ethereum, right? So you always have to ask yourself, is the company a good company, you know, or is the value, because part of the problem with the tech stocks is their valuations went too high because interest rates were so long. And so people had nowhere else to put their money. So they put it into crypto and they put it into high flyer tech stocks and other things. Right. And when interest rates have

been going up over the last few months, it's like, okay, well, I can earn two or three or four percent. Why am I going to take the risk on crypto or on these stocks? Right. So I'll just yank it out. And, you know, Amazon is falling, what, 50, 60, 70 percent? Netflix, 70 or 80 percent. Yeah, everything has gotten destroyed. Even Apple has gone down 30-some percent. And so, you know, there's no way you can predict all of that. It's just doesn't matter who you are. Stocks don't always just go up, even though it feels like it. And it's the same with crypto.

But for me, with crypto, there's two types of crypto tokens. One is store value, which is really only Bitcoin. And that's kind of like gold. You know, there's all kinds of narratives that say, well, if you hold gold, when there's heavy inflation, the price of gold would go up. Right. Price of gold has gone down during all this inflation. And so that's bullshit, but it's a narrative that gets people to buy.

And it's the same with Bitcoin. You know, there's only $21 million going to be made. So if there's inflation, you don't have to worry about that hasn't worked either. But the reality is those store values are just about supply and demand. If there's more people buying than selling, the price goes up. Right, exactly. If there's more people selling than buying, the price goes down. Now, good news with both gold and Bitcoin is most people just hold them and weight it out.

That's one kind of crypto. The other kind are just tokens. and, you know, like Ethereum and... Doge. Does it... You guys use Doge? Doge coin. Yeah, Dogecoin is just fun. Dogecoin is like the on-ramp for crypto.

Oh, okay. Yeah. You can use it to buy stuff and everything. Like, you can go to the Mav store and buy tickets and buy whatever. But, you know, there's... It's... Like what I've said is just it's a better lottery ticket than a lottery ticket. Because once you scratch it, if you don't win on your lottery ticket, it's over.

At least with Dogecoin, it's got a chance still to go. That has a chance. So like, so how about NFTs? What's the, what's with this NFT? Like, it's the same thing. He told me about Chris, what's his face? Chris. Chris Brown.

Do you see this? He has like a hundred million followers, 120 million followers on social media. Do you mean an NFT? Chris Brown, the singer? Yeah. Okay. And he sold like, what they mean, how many of these? Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's like, it's like art. No, it's, yeah. No, I understand what it is. But I feel like everybody in their dog now is like doing one and having one. Yeah. Yeah, but it's just like, you know, anybody who collected baseball cards. So is it the same? Same thing.

Yeah, only a digital version of a collectible. That's it. And so, you know, if I buy, and if you want to see my NFTs, go to lazy.com slash mcubin. Okay. That's another company I started, right? I was going to ask you about this lazy one also. What is that? It's just a way you just go to lazy.com, set up an account, connect your wallets.

And it's an easy way, you know, to put in your Instagram profile or at the bottom of an email, check out my NFTs lazy.com slash mcubin. Okay, I'm going to check them out. Yeah, so if you have NFTs in your wallet, it's a really easy thing to do. Yeah. But NFTs, you know, they're like any other collectible art, right? What makes up Picasso worth all that money? True, but it was that I'll have a Picasso.

Not like if I were to buy a print of the Picasso, it doesn't cost me anything. It costs me like $10, $20. Well, yeah, it's the same thing, right? Yeah. But there are certain prints of things that cost you a lot. True. You know, Andy Warhol. It's online.

Like, who cares? Like, wouldn't I rather have it on my wall? Well, we'll think about it this way. If you run out of space on your phone. Yes. And you have to delete pictures. Yes. How painful is that?

I don't like it. It's painful. Yes. Right? Yes. Oh, there's my baby. Yes. Right.

There's value. Just because it's digital doesn't mean there's not value. True. And if it's art from somebody that you respect or like, and, you know, you can have it show up on your screensaver, on your, your laptop, on your PC, on your phone. So, you know, it's just a collectible. And the fact that it's digital doesn't make it, digital doesn't make it any more or less valuable. It makes it easier to buy and sell, faster to buy and sell, but it comes down to supply and demand. You know, if nobody

cares about Picasso, true, that Picasso is going down in value. Like, are you buying, you know how Snoop bought some area and Metaverse and the Webverse? No, I think that's a joke. What is this? You know, in the Metaverse, you know, if you can get people to go there, and that's a place to, you know, congregate and hang out with your avatar. And I look at... Do you understand why it's so complicated? Yeah, I get it. You know, in this Second Life and other places like that have been around forever,

it's just that the technology is advanced. Yeah. But the idea of, you know, buying digital real estate in the Metaverse and thinking it's going to appreciate for some reason other than just, you know, convincing somebody else to buy it. Yeah. I'm not sold on that. So you're not doing that. So what's the next wave?

Like, what's the next thing you look for? Well, it'll be crypto. Yeah. There's artificial intelligence, but that's way too complicated. That's the whole other beast. Well, that's all happening. Yeah, for sure. AI's driving a lot.

Yeah. But, um. And that's one of the things you're really big in. You're right. Yeah. No, because you've got to know it. Yeah. Because I've got to know it for my companies.

Yeah. But with crypto, it comes down to utility. Yeah. Right. So like with the Dallas Mavericks, if you go to a MAV's game and you scan your ticket before the end of the first quarter, for every game we create a unique NFT and you get it for free

you don't have to buy it, you get it for free and if you go to maths collectibles.com you can see what we have there and once you scan your ticket in you go to math collectibles it'll be there waiting for you. You don't have to create a wallet or do all this other stuff

and you can buy them and trade them and sell them or whatever but whoever goes to the most games or collects the most we'll give you free tickets to a pre-season game right? And we don't say in advance what we're going to give you

Right. We just try to reward you based off of what we see in the market and all that. So sometimes, like in this case, an NFT is a reflection of something you've done. And in our case with the Mavs, you've gone to a game and we want to reward that. And so, you know, by have, you ever had the biggest collection, I think we sent them a special jacket, you know, and just stuff like that. But we don't, we don't say buy this so you can get a jacket. We say, you know, this tells us your fandom because you're going to games. Right. Because that's the behavior we want to reward more.

than anything. Going to games and even watching a game. You know, so that's one element. And then, you know, there's other utility. It really comes down to crypto will start taking off again when you can use it for some level of utility, right? You know, when iPhones first came out, people didn't think Snapchat. Yeah, no way.

Exactly. You know, they didn't think Instagram. Nope. But when those came out, you start saying, oh, I can use my phone for a whole lot more than just take. TikTok or. Yeah. You know, I can use it for a whole lot more than just taking pictures and making.

phone calls. Right. You know, or going on the internet. And so that's an example of utility where there was an application that was so compelling, people needed that platform to use it. It was just like streaming. When we started streaming in 1995, if you wanted to listen to the Chicago Cubs and you were in Dallas, the only way you can get those games was by getting a PC, downloading, you know, having a motor, it was a pain in the ass. Absolutely. Right. But people went through it because if you're a Cubs fan and you're at work, it was the only way. Right. And it'll be the same with crypto. So if there's an application that, you know, the only way I can do this application, then that's what it's going to take. And when that happens, you'll see crypto go boom

again. Wow. Well, hopefully sooner than later, right? Yeah. You're kidding, right? Like, you know, kidding. Yeah, from your mouth to God's ears. And then one other thing about, well, actually, I wanted to ask you this only because I was curious when I was like doing all this research, how are you able to get into Indiana without finishing high school. Because I was taking college classes. So don't you need to have like a college, a high school, you know, diploma? Yeah. So when I dropped out, I went to the University of Pittsburgh, took classes there and then let me take those classes and apply it. That's how you did it. That's how I did. And then when I got to Indiana, I snuck into a graduate level of statistics class, got an A in it. And they thought I was in the MBA program when I was 18. And I just kept on taking MBA classes.

and I was even tutoring people. It was insane. Oh, my God. That is so cute. You're so sly. What's your favorite book that you, well, Fountainhead, right?

Okay, that wasn't easy. I shouldn't have said that. Well, I should pretend that you know. And that doesn't mean like I'm a big Iron Rann advocate or anything. I just like Howard Rourke. Yeah,

that's the whole thing, right? Howard Warwick is just the big old fuck you guy, right? Yeah, I love him. Yeah. So that's why. That's why. Okay. Other than, other than that,

what's like your favorite business book? Besides yours. Yeah. How to Win a Sport of Business. My little plug in there. It's like 65 pages. Yeah, it's easy to read. It's more like a pamphlet than a book.

Yeah, I wanted to be really easy to read and motivating. I don't know, probably always. You read so much. Yeah, always the last book I read typically. Signal and Noise, which is a book about statistics, was good. Fun. The master algorithm, which is about AI, was good.