Habits and Hustle - Episode 496: Dr. Michael Breus: The 4-7-8 Breathing Trick That Fixes Middle-of-the-Night Insomnia

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Listen to the full episode: https://youtu.be/trGbcAqF2dA?si=qG5E_F-gP4x8qQhp  Why do you wake up at 3:30 AM and can't fall back asleep? In this Fitness Friday episode on the Habits and Hustle podcast, Michael Breus, the Sleep Doctor, says it’s not your fault.  We unpack the science of why everyone wakes up between 1-3 AM, the shocking Alzheimer's connection to Benadryl, and why CBN (not CBD) is the cannabis compound that actually helps sleep. Plus: the truth about melatonin, why magnesium beats most sleep aids, and the supplement deficiencies sabotaging your rest. Dr. Michael Breus is a clinical psychologist and one of only 168 psychologists in the world board-certified in sleep medicine. Known as "The Sleep Doctor," he's the author of five books including Sleep, Drink, Breathe and has treated celebrities from Carson Daly to Paris Hilton to DJ Steve Aoki. What we discuss: Why every human wakes up between 1-3 AM The 4-7-8 breathing technique Navy SEALs use to lower heart rate below 60 Yoga nidra gives you 20 minutes of sleep benefit for every hour of rest Regular Benadryl/ZzzQuil use directly linked to Alzheimer's disease CBD does nothing for sleep. What actually reduces nighttime awakenings The three deficiencies destroying your sleep Why melatonin affects birth control, SSRIs, and is NOT for children Natural alternatives to melatonin Thank you to our sponsor: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off  Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order  Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Find more from Dr. Michael Breus: Website:https://sleepdoctor.com/  Books: https://sleepdoctor.com/books  Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. Hey, friends, you're listening to Fitness Friday on the Habits and Hustle podcast, where myself and my friends share quick and very actionable advice for you becoming your healthiest self. So stay tuned and let me know how you leveled up. Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their trite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain.

You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therisage.com right now and use code be bold for 15% off. This code will work sitewide. Again, head over to Therasage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E dot com, and use code be bold for 15% off any of their products.

Now that I'm in my 40s now, falling asleep is not the problem. Right. the problem is getting up, like getting up in the middle of the night. Oh, yes. I, that happens all, like, by, I can fix that. Okay, so this is my problem. So I fall asleep, no problem. Yeah, 3.30, boom, I'm awake.

And then once I'm awake, I got the answer. Yeah, can't fall asleep again. Got the answer for you. It's going to take me about three and a half to four minutes, just letting you know, because I know you usually like short answers. This one's going to take a minute. Okay, go ahead. So, first of all, this is my number one video on YouTube.

This video has gotten 5.4. million views at this point to answer this question. And this question is the number one question that I get asked. The number two question is what bed should I buy? It's kind of interesting, right? Really? I swear to you. It's crazy. What bed should I buy? I'll talk to you about that. Let's fix your insomnia first. Okay. So when people wake up in the middle of the night, it's actually not your fault. Let me explain. When you wake up in the, I'm sorry, when you go to bed at night, your core body temperature rises, rises, rises, until it hits a peak. When it hits that peak, it begins to drop, usually around 10, 10.30 at night, depending on your chronotype.

Remember my animals? That'll change a little bit. But as soon as that happens, your core body temperature continues to drop, drop, drop. At some point, your core body temperature has to raise, otherwise you're going to become hypothermic. I'll give you one guess as to what time that usually is for you. Three o'clock in the morning. That's exactly right. So every human on earth wakes up at some point in time during the night, usually between one and three o'clock in the morning. That's because of this increase in core body temperature. However, most people don't even know that they've woken up because you have to be awake for about 45 seconds to actually realize that you're awake and they roll over and they're back to sleep. You, however, are not. So let's talk

about that situation right there. So when you look at that situation right there, there's a few different biology aspects that you need to know and understand. So number one, my first thing is I tell people, don't go pee. Now, I want to be clear, if you got to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom. But hold on for a second. 90% of people tell me, they wake up and they say, well, I'm up. I might as well go pee. So there's a statistic that people don't know. In order to enter into a state of unconsciousness, you need a heart rate of 60 or below. What do you think happens to your heart weight when you go from a lying position to a seated position to a standing position and go pee. It's much higher. Much higher. So when you get back, then you got two issues. You got to get

your heart rate down and you got to get yourself back to sleep. So don't go pee unless you really have to go pee. Now, a lot of people turn to me and they say, well, Michael, I feel like my bladder is full or something like that. And so I say, number one, are you on your side when you wake up? 75% of people are. I said, roll to your back and count to 20 and see if you still have to pee. Because what happens is a lot of people squunch their bladder, right, while they're on their side. And when they just kind of stretch out and lie on their back and relax for two seconds, they're like, oh, actually, I don't, I don't have to pee. So then they don't have to get up. So then they can move forward with the process of trying to lower their heart rate. I want to be super clear. If you got to pee, go pee. All right?

Yeah. Number two, don't look at the clock. Now, this is also another thing that almost everybody does. Yep. Right? And they instantly do the mental math. And they say, oh, shit. It's 3.30 in the morning. and I got to get up at 6.20. Sleep, sleep, sleep. And you try to force yourself to sleep. Got to be honest with you, J.C., in the history of time, no one has ever been able to force themselves to sleep.

Because your energy's going in the wrong way, right? When you're saying sleep, sleep, sleep, your heart rate's kicking up. And the anxiety kicks in. Right. That's the biggest factor is when you do the math and you're like, oh, no, this is going to be a disaster. Yeah.

Right? And your heart rate, bit, bit, bit straight up. Okay. So if you can avoid it, look at the clock. Now I'm going to be honest with you, everybody looks at the clock. Everybody looks at the clock. But if you can avoid it. What I do is I tell people, look, charge your phone in another room or charge it in the bathroom. People always say, oh, I can't charge my phone in another room. What if my kid calls me in the middle of the night? Number one, your kid hasn't

ever called you in the middle of the night. And I didn't say turn it off. I said, put it in the other room. You can still hear it, but I don't want it to be easily accessible for you to get the piece of information to realize that you're in an anxious situation. Okay, let's say I haven't gone to the bathroom, or I have, and I haven't looked at the clock. Michael, what do I do now? So there's something that I learned a little bit ago to help lower your heart rate actually quite rapidly. It's called 478 breathing.

I did not develop it. It was developed by a very smart doctor, Dr. Andrew Weil, Harvard-trained naturalist. Okay? I know him. Yep. Super interesting guy, right? So he actually created this breathing technique for the Navy SEALs. So when you're a Navy SEAL and you're shooting downrange,

If your heart is beating too fast, you can change the trajectory of the bullet. So he helped all the Navy SEALs lower their heart rate to a point where they could fire in between heartbeats. That happened to be 60, which is our magic number, so we're on. So I teach people how to do 4-7-8 breathing. Now, there's two things that – three things that I want you to understand here. Number one, 4-7-8 is exactly what it sounds like. You breathe in slowly for a count of four. You hold for a count of seven, and you breathe slowly for a count of eight back out.

I'm going to be honest with you, when I first tried it, I couldn't do it. So I modified it, made it a four, five, six breathing. So my hold was a little shorter and my output was a little shorter. And it took me about a month to be able to kind of get my lungs used to this. But here's why it works so well. When you're counting, you can't think about anything else, which turns off monkey mind, which is what you probably get when your mind starts going. So by counting, you are occupying your mind.

and when you're breathing and counting, you are occupying your mind and you are lowering your heart rate at the same time. Pretty cool, right? Wow, so you count, you do four in? Four in, hold for seven, push for eight. Now, it's not a hard push, it's a light push. Now, here's where the trick comes in. Okay. You need to do about 10 to 12 cycles of that for your heart rate to get lower, right? I lose count. Happened to me all the time. So I came up with this crazy method that'll help me.

So when I'm lying there with my eyes closed, I put my hands out, like with little fists, like just down by my side. And when I breathe and I do a four, seven, eight, I stick out one finger. Then when I do another four, seven eight, I stick out a finger. And by the time I get to ten fingers, I know I've done ten cycles, I can either go backwards or I can just stop when I'm there. Okay. Wouldn't you be sleeping by then, hopefully? A lot of people are. Again, it doesn't take that long to do this four seconds, seven seconds, eight seconds, right?

But you need to do it nice and slow, nice and relaxed. And the goal is to lower your heart rate. So because that, I think what you just said is exactly the thing. I get monkey mind, right? I started thinking of all my problems. Yep. And I get such anxiety. I know.

And then like it just feeds on it, feeds on itself. Of course. And then 3.30 is now like 5.30. And now you're really upset. Yeah. Because you got to talk to the sleep doctor for the podcast next day. And you're like, what am I going to say? Exactly.

I'm like, oh, my God. I'm going to be so tired. I'm not going to have any energy again. And then, like, it takes you down a bad rabbit hole, right? Absolutely, absolutely. But there's more. Okay, because I want to know how to get rid of monkey minds in the middle of the night. So by distracting yourself is basically one of the only way.

So the 478 breathing does a really good job of that. Okay. That's number one. Number two is you also want to think about something called yoga nidra. So old from very ancient, ancient, ancient. But one of the things we know, some people call it non-sleep deep rest. I call it yoga nidra. Okay.

Okay. But there's data to show that it is actually rejuvenative. So lying in your bed with your arms kind of in the corpse pose and relaxed is actually helpful. Now, it's not the same as sleep, but it's probably worth 30% sleep. So an hour of that is probably worth 20 minutes of sleep. So here's another thing to just, yeah. No, the data's there. Like I wouldn't say it if there wasn't data. Here's what's fascinating is you could lie there for an hour chilling out and your body is rejuvenating for what would have been roughly 20 minutes of sleep. So you're doing yourself some good. So even if you're not doing yourself some good, you're actually doing yourself a little bit of good. All you need to do is just cross your arms and something like this? Yeah, just kind of cross them just like this. Close your eyes and just breathe. That's it.

And you get about 20% of what it would be if you were actually sleeping. Exactly. So that's good to do in the middle of the night because you know you're, because what people are freaking out about is they're like, oh my God, I'm not going to feel good. I'm going to not rejuvenate. This isn't going to go well. I'm going to do this wrong or that wrong. And what I'm telling you is, is while it's not.

not at the same pace, you're still doing yourself some good. And the final aspect of all of this is an idea set that I call acceptance, right? Here's the deal. You've been in here before. You've actually were here last night. Yes, exactly. And guess what? Your head didn't pop off. Nothing terrible happened. But you don't make great decisions at three o'clock in the morning when you're thinking about those kind of things. So what I try to remind people is trust your body. Okay. Your body does this thing right before it goes to sleep is it kind of scans you throughout the daytime and says to itself, okay, this damage has occurred, this emotional situation has happened, okay, we need about this much of deep sleep, we need about this much of REM sleep, this much is how much we need to get

for total, you know, rejuvenation, blah, blah, blah, and it changes every single night. But like if I'm doing, if I'm waking up in the middle of the night, five nights in a row, doesn't that just overall ruin my health? So that's a great question. So we're going to go from, what do I do about it in the middle of the night to what happens if it's happening multiple nights in a row and I can't control it, Michael, right? Because I think that's what happens, right? Because you get, what I feel happy, what I think a lot of people do is that if it's happened

once or twice in a row, you get nervous to go to bed. It's going to continue to happen. Yeah, you get almost like a phobia to going to sleep. Right, because you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to wake up again. Right. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So this is where people usually use alcohol, right? Bad idea.

Alcohol destroys stage three, four, sleep, which is the physical restoration. So drinking yourself to sleep at this point is never a good idea. I actually think, to be honest, what people are doing more than drinking now, or they're taking gummies to go to bed. Yeah, so let's talk about cannabis and sleep, right? So especially if you're in a state where it's been legalized, which is almost all of them, 28 now, going on more. Yeah.

Here's what you need to think about when you're thinking about cannabis and sleep. And by the way, I've written more about this topic than anybody else in the country. So if you swing over to the sleepdoctor.com and type in cannabis and sleep, you'll learn a ton. But here's the basics of it is, number one, there is no data. I've looked to show that CBD does almost anything for your sleep. Okay? Let me repeat myself, CBD does almost nothing for your sleep. However, CBD is good for pain and it's good for anxiety.

So, if you have anxiety that's preventing you from sleeping or you have pain that's preventing you from sleeping, CBD might actually be a pretty decent tool to use. CBN as in nighttime, that's what works for sleep. There's one paper that just got published about three or four months ago that showed that the nighttime awakenings are actually helped by CBN. It slows them down significantly. What's CBN? CBN is one of the constituents within the cannabis plan.

So there's THC, there's CBT, there's CBD, there's CBN, there's something called CBG, there's also something called CBC, there's several different components that a lot of people don't know about. But if you're going to the dispensary and you're looking for something to help you with sleep, you really want to be looking for this component called CBN, and you would probably want a ratio of three of those for every one CBD and every one THC. THC is the component that makes you feel buzzed, that makes you feel fun and all that kind of stuff. Now, you notice I'm saying it's okay to have some THC. Let me explain.

THC at high amounts will lower your REM sleep and increase your heart rate, which we don't want either one of those. But at lower amounts, it will lower anxiety. So I would argue that you want something that's high in CBN, because that's what helps with lowering your awakenings, CBD to lower some anxiety and THC to lower some anxiety to help you enter into sleep. Now, I want to be very, very clear. You don't have to take marijuana to help you sleep.

But if this is something that is habitual for you or something that you feel comfortable with, that would be a formulation that I would look at. The other thing I think is important to look at here is if this is happening on the regular, you probably want to come and talk to somebody like me, like a sleep specialist, who's been trained in something called cognitive behavioral therapy. Because there's a technique called sleep restriction that I would use in that case to be able to consolidate the amount of sleep that you get. So while this is going to sound very, very strange, we talk about it a little bit in the book,

this is what we do is if you're normally waking, let's say you woke up at 3.30, you're up until 5.30, then you fall back asleep for an hour, and you just don't want that. What I would have you do is I'd have you go to bed. What time do you normally go to bed? 10. So I'd have you go to bed at 10.30 or 11. So notice later than normal, so build up that sleep debt, right? And then I would have you get up at probably five. Okay. I would restrict the amount of time that you have in bed. Now you're going to say, Michael, I already don't sleep. You're making this worse. My anxiety is going to be through the roof. What are you talking about? This sounds crazy.

But you take no naps during the day and you wait again until that night at 11. What I'm doing is I'm naturally building up your sleep deprivation to use to my advantage. So if you do this for five to seven days in a row, by the way, you shouldn't do this on your own. You should only do this under the supervision of somebody who knows how to do this because there's some things that can go wrong. What will happen is your sleep consolidates and now you're no longer awakening in the middle of the night. So then what I do is once I've gotten you six solid hours, I start to stair step you out, Slowly, I can get you six and a half, seven hours, I can get you to wherever you need to go. Wow.

So you're basically eliminating the time in bed where you're just like, you know, thinking and like, and basically just like ruminating. Right. Exactly. We take that out. So you go to bed later and wake up earlier. Exactly. And then you over time expand on it.

Exactly. That's what you guys do in like sleep clinics? Yeah. Well, so remember in sleep clinics, we treat all kinds of sleep disorders. So this is how most sleep clinics would look at treating insomnia if they're using a method called cognitive behavioral therapy. To be fair, some sleep clinics would rather use pills and medication. So they might put you on a medication like an Ambien or a Sonata, a Restoril, Valium, Xanax. There's lots of medications out there that can be helpful for sleep.

However, Ben, you've got a sleep problem and a pill problem. Well, that's the thing. Anybody I know who's ever taken Ambien, they get addicted to that stuff, and then they can't fall asleep without it. So here's what I'll tell you is I think Ambien and all of the sleeping pills have got pros and they've got cons to them. While some of the newer technology pills don't have a physiological addiction to them, if you haven't slept well in 20 years and I give you a pill, you're going to want that pill again and again and again. 100%. Right.

So there's a psychological component to it, I believe. You know I'm all about finding an edge. the small daily habits that give you more energy, focus, and resilience. But that's why I am hooked on mana vitality. Most people are mineral deficient, and that means low energy, brain fog, slow recovery, and dull skin. But mana flips the switch by giving your body a complete spectrum of minerals it actually knows how to use.

We're talking Shilajit from the Himalayas, Ormos from the Dead Sea, and marine plasma from the ocean, plus amino acids and 88 other trace minerals. The benefits are real. We're talking steady all-day energy, sharper focus, faster recovery, a stronger immunity plus glowing skin. But the biggest win, it fuels your cells for real longevity. Think of it as like a cellular switch-on formula, not as a stimulant, but the raw power your body needs to create energy and repair it. self. Try it now, and I bet you'll be hooked to. Go to manavitality.com and use code Jennifer 20 for a discount. That's mana vitality.com. M-A-N-N-A-Vitality.com and use code Jennifer 20.

What about using Benadryl to fall asleep? Such a good question. So when you see all the PMS out there, all that is is the analgesic plus Benadryl, otherwise known as Diphonhydramine. Hold on to your socks. So to be clear, there is direct evidence to show that consistent use of Benadryl on the nightly as an anticholinergic leads directly to Alzheimer's. You didn't think I was going there, did you? No, I did not. I know.

That's what I'm trying to say. Ziquil, the PMs, you name it. If you're down in a Benadryl on the regular, you are absolutely positive. The data is very clear. You're walking into the door of Alzheimer's. I've never heard that. I know. Isn't that crazy?

That's so scary. Isn't it? I'll show you the data. It's nuts. So, oh my gosh, because that actually is the only thing that works. If I can't fall asleep, like, and it's been days. Now, I want to be clear, if you use it once in a while, it's not, you're not going to have Alzheimer's.

I'm talking about people who have to have one of these PMs every night. night. Right. I'd much rather you come see me in my clinic, right? And let's talk about it and let's figure you out. But wait a minute. So that's crazy. I know. I've never, see, every time you're on this show, you, I, there's never, like, every time I learn so many new things, it's unbelievable about sleep. So what about, like, I heard you talk about vitamin C in sleep. Does vitamin C actually help you? Vitamin D. I heard vitamin C. So here's what I can tell you. What I'd blood's on. So if somebody was to be part of my clinic or work with me, I would have them go to their doctor and I have them do blood work. So to be clear, I'm not a big supplement guy when it

comes to sleep. I'm a big, let's fix the body guy. Yeah, get to the root cause. Right. So what are you deficient in? There's three things that if you're deficient in, I know for a fact they affect your sleep. Vitamin D, magnesium, and iron. If you are deficient in any one of those three, there's no universe that you're getting a good night's sleep. So I always have everybody, talk to their doctor, get their blood work, bring it in. Let's fix that first and just see how your body is operating at that point. You'd be surprised, probably 25, 30% of the time, that's all it takes, and people are sleeping better. Let's say you don't have that and you're saying to me, okay, Michael, I want to, I need something to help me fall asleep. I don't want to take something like Benadryl. I want

something that's a little bit more natural, kind of not into the cannabis and gummy, gummy scene, or maybe I don't live in a state where that's legal. You've already told me that alcohol is bad choice. What are we going to do? I can't call a cognitive behavioral therapist in the middle of the night, right? Right. So there is, there are a few supplements that have been shown to be very helpful for sleep that are pretty gentle, something called gaba. So gaba is kind of like the brakes of the brain. It definitely can help you slow down your thinking, lower your anxiety. Valerian root, specifically Valerian combined with hops has been shown to be actually quite effective, as effective as sleeping pills in some cases. So that's kind of interesting as well.

What's it called? Valerian root and like hops from beer hops as a combination. That's been shown to be effective as well. So there's a couple of things out there that you can figure out and work with. Ashwaganda can be helpful for creating anxiety or lowering anxiety and things of that nature as well. What about just taking magnesium? So I'm a huge fan of magnesium because roughly 75% of people are deficient in magnesium. And I did a study with a group about magnesium.

and they had me test their product. And I've got to be honest with you, I was blown away. You told me that before that you did that study, that, like, it was, like, way above any other... Yeah, so it's called Upgraded Formulas, and this guy came to me, and he was like, I want to prove to everybody that my magnesium is the best for sleep. And I was like, that's a pretty tall order. And he was like, let's go.

And so we did a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, so exactly like a drug trial, but with magnesium. And people acted as their own controls. It was the most, the strongest design of a scientific study that you could have. And all the researchers were blinded. They had no idea what they had given people. So that's why it's double-blinded placebo-controlled study. And this guy's magnesium was through the roof.

I mean, people were sleeping significantly better. Deeper sleep was better and falling asleep was better. Just from magnesium. Did you test other magnesiums to see? What we did was we tested against the sham. And then we tested against, yes, so we tested against another magnesium. and we tested against a placebo. Okay, how about melatonin?

So melatonin is interesting because there's pros and there's cons. I'll tell you, there's only really three instances, maybe four, where I have a tendency to like melatonin. I think melatonin works well for jet lag. I think melatonin works well for shift work. Melatonin is also used in something called REM behavior disorder. By the way, melatonin can actually be helpful with ADD and ADHD.

There's some new data on that. And then I think melatonin works well and people with a melatonin deficiency. So as we get older, one of the things we know is that the aging brain doesn't make melatonin nearly as well as it once did. And so a lot of people have less melatonin as they hit the 55, 60, 65 kind of age range. And so that's when melatonin might not be a bad idea to take on the regular. So like people like who are aging like you were just saying, just to kind of finish. Wait, can I make one quick comment? Melatonin is not for children. Period. Full stop. People don't know this.

In Europe, at high dosages, melatonin is a contraceptive. It is? Yep. See, I'm dropping bombs on you left and right. You really are. What do you mean? So at high dosages, melatonin actually affects the entire cycle, like women's entire cycle. So it actually affects birth control.

So as an example, if you're taking birth control pills and you decide to take melatonin, your birth control pills could easily become less or ineffective, FYI. Melatonin also affects SSRIs, so anti-depress. medication. So if you're taking Prozac, Zoloff, something like that, and you just hop on over to the drugstore and grab yourself some melatonin, you could easily have a problem with that. It also affects your blood pressure medication and diabetes medication. So it's a hormone. It's not just this root that we're getting from somewhere. It's a synthetically produced hormone, which affects lots of things in the body, which is why I don't like it, especially in kids. No kidding.

I know. And also, like, it's also not something to be, to get addicted to either. Correct. So basically then magnesium vitamin D, you say, are two that you're comfortable with. Super comfortable. And omegas. And omegas. Well, you, yeah. So wait, what do you mean? So talk about the omegas. You say gaba root and hops. I know. I said valerian root. And hops. And then I said gaba is one of the ones that I like to use. And as in terms of overall supplementation. So you want to know about omegas? So one of the things we know is that omegas, they help with a whole host of different functions in our body, which then relate to sleep. So as an example, one of the things that omegas do is they help create the membrane around cells that makes them stronger and stronger

and stronger. So less bad stuff can kind of get in. Unless bad stuff is in, that means better sleep, especially with mitochondria and things of that nature. There have been a few studies that have looked at, like if you take an omega, does it actually improve a particular stage of sleep? We've never been able to focus that. But what we have seen is when people take omegas regularly, that they actually report higher quality sleep. higher quality sleep.