Habits and Hustle - Episode 513: Emily Hickey: Scaling Brands, Marketing That Converts, and Building What Lasts

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

What actually makes a brand break through and stay relevant long after the hype fades? I wanted to explore that question with someone who sees behind the scenes of real growth, not just what looks good online. In this episode, I sit down with Emily Hickey to talk about what performance marketing really means, why specificity matters more than volume, and how the smartest brands focus on what is already working instead of chasing every new idea. We get into product positioning, influencer strategy, why hero products matter, and how marketing decisions connect directly to identity and behavior. We also talk about fitness, discipline, GLP-1 medications, and why building a business often forces you to build yourself at the same time. Emily Hickey is the co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective, a performance marketing agency working with leading consumer brands across Meta, Google, and social platforms. She also advises companies like Goop and Weight Watchers, helping leadership teams think clearly about growth, positioning, and longevity. What We Discuss: (00:00) Why Most Brands Stall Even With Great Marketing (07:18) What It Actually Means To Be A Top Meta Agency (14:42) Why Product Strategy Matters More Than Ads (22:05) The Biggest Mistake Early Brands Make Online (30:11) How Influencer Marketing Really Drives Sales (38:47) Why Winners Win And How To Spot Them Early (47:26) How Fitness Builds Confidence Beyond The Gym (56:02) The Real Link Between Personal Growth And Business Success Thank you to our sponsors: Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE40 for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off  Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order  Amp fit is the perfect balance of tech and training, designed for people who do it all and still want to feel strong doing it. Check it out at joinamp.com/jen    Find more from Jen:  Website: www.jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Emily Hickey: Website: www.chiefdetective.com Instagram: @emilyhickey_official YouTube: Emily Hickey: Growth Series

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. In this episode of Habits and Hustle, I sit down with Emily Hickey, co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective, one of the top performance marketing agencies working with leading consumer brands across meta, Instagram, and beyond. Emily is one of the sharpest strategic thinkers I've come across when it comes to branding, growth, and what actually drives consumer behavior. We break down what performance marketing really means and why most brands waste time trying to fix what isn't working instead of doubling down on what is, and how the smartest companies think about positioning, product strategy, and identity. Emily explains core principles like Winners Win,

SpearPoint Marketing, and why specificity always beats broad messaging. If you care about scaling a brand or understanding modern marketing with clarity, this conversation delivers. By the end, you'll see why I think of Emily as the Kara Swisher of Marketing, direct, incisive, and unwilling to sugarcoat what actually works. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed having it. Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therasage. Their trite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for here. healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce

inflammations and places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face. which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective.

Head over to Therisage.com right now and use code B-Bold for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therisage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E-E. and use code be bold for 15% off any of their products. Guys, today we have a really good podcast. If you're into entrepreneurship, business, personal branding, self-improvement, personal growth, this is the podcast for you. We have

Emily Hickey. I tracked her down on Instagram because she's so smart. I was like we have to have this brilliant brain on the podcast. And Emily, by the way, she's a co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. It's one of the top ad agencies for social media, for meta, for Instagram. She's like, she's like doing like all the things for some of the biggest brands we have, we know. So we're going to get into it. So hi, Emily. Hi, Jen. How's that for a little intro? It was incredible. Thank you. Oh, my God. You're welcome. You're very welcome. So we're going to do a shot. We do these magic mind shots. on the podcast.

Okay. You know, you'd be a good person to ask. So Magic Mind is a performance shot. Have you ever heard of it? No. Okay. So these are healthy shots.

Okay. So they have like, look at the ingredients. You tell me what you think, but we just do it because it helps you with focus, being more alert, being more, you know, kind of locked into the podcast. Awesome. Amen. Yeah, you're in. Yeah.

Shake, shake. And it's like, and you're a healthy person. I mean, you live and tell you're eye and the whole thing. And you lost five pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Goal weight. Yeah.

Cheers. I'm going to drink only half because I've had so many of these. I'm going to be like, hmm. I think I'm always supposed to have like two, but I have like five a day. Should I take the whole? Yeah, you should. It's only has a little bit of caffeine, but it's green tea that caffeine in it has. It's really good.

It's good. So by the way, these are these people, not as a shameless plug, seriously, they are doing really well. They're like, they're crushing it. I was going to ask you about them afterwards, but. Okay. Cool. I want to ask you what the branding. And then, by the way, I want to let you know, it is very hot in here if you haven't noticed. Yeah. I have. And I run cold. I run really cold. So just, I'm sorry to say that I can't handle it. It's okay. Okay. So Emily, I want you to tell us what exactly. Okay, first of all, like, I kind of just said that you do run one of the top agencies, ad agencies for meta and so obviously Instagram. What does that mean? Like, what does chief detective do? What is your like special? Can you kind of just give a really broad overview?

Yep. Okay. So what it, so I run, I co-founded and run this ad agency called Chief Detective. We are a performance marketing agency, meaning that mostly our job is if we spend $20,000 a day for a brand, we better make it back that same day. That's what performance marketing is. It's basically same day revenue versus brand marketing, which is a longer time horizon of developing something.

So for the most part, we are a performance agency and we manage spend. on meta, which is Instagram and Facebook, and Google and TikTok and Pinterest, but we also do the creative. So we have about 60 employees, and probably two-thirds of them are sort of the creative studio, which is concepting and developing videos and, you know. Yeah. So, and what it means to be good at it or, you know, try to be good at it is that the way that meta measures it for an agency is what was the brand spending when they started with that agency and what were the returns and what's that same set of metrics three months later so how quickly can they you know try to drive an improvement on the account and then what's what's like the average tenure of the

engagement so can they can they stick around with a client and really help over the longer term so that's how they measure that and so in that you know by by that measurement that we're one of the top agencies on meta which is hard wow that yeah i finally so so first of all how many agencies are that does, I feel like there's a lot of people who say they do this, right? Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many it is, but it's a lot. A lot, right? Yeah.

And so, like, what if a company, like, what if a person or a company doesn't have a budget for performance marketing? Like, what are some, like, ways people can, you know, build awareness, gain awareness? Like, how would someone do it if they're just kind of starting out and they don't even have the ability to even do what you're doing? Yep. To not even spend a dollar. Well, you tell me what, like, like, tell me what.

Yeah. I mean, not to even spend it. Like, let's talk about from inception and like the different like tiers and levels, right? Because if I'm somebody who, you know, has a consumer product, how would I get it out there? How would I build awareness if I don't spend money? Do I need to spend money? Yep. I don't think you need to spend. I mean, some of the best, we don't live in that side of the pond. You know, we don't take on for the most part. We don't take on early stage companies. Every once in a while I will take a bet on something because we kind of fall for it. Right. Okay. But for the most part, we come in. when they're doing about 20 million in revenue or upwards, anywhere 20 million plus in revenue and their stock and they want to scale it, that's when we tend to come in. My personal experience isn't with that early stage, but when I was building operating companies, that was always what I was doing was early, super early startup. Right. And I think at that point, I think that these channels are a gift because they are so flammable, as you know, you've done this.

So you've got the best marketer wins. You know, it's the scrappy people who are fearless and first of all, you have to have a good product. I think that's really underestimated is that the first part of your marketing strategy actually is your product. So are you structuring it in a way that it has a natural hook? Like your hook is clear in terms of fitness as a microcosm and that applies to everybody's life and it's mass market and it's a hook. You know, you, like some people, I think just have a nose for marketing the same way that I think people have a nose for sales. And like it's almost like a, I think it runs in families actually. Really?

It's a TNA trait where some people are really good at marketing and some people are really good at sales. And those people tend to just kind of have an instinct for what is going to click with people. And they're not attached to their own ideas. I think that's another success quality. Like they're willing to just workshop and try things and try things and try things. Whereas like you meet a lot of people who are so attached to their own idea intellectually that they won't, they won't objectively look at what they're doing and learn from their efforts and get better at it. That's a real thing, too. So I think some of the best things that we look at, the founder, sat down and just did their own creative and they did it on no budget.

And they just, let's say, like, you could go run out in the street and interview people and all of a sudden it's good content. And people, you just have to have a nose for it. You have to be willing to do it. Well, I find it interesting. You said something. You said that you have to have a good product, which is interesting because I've seen so many, like, especially in the last few years with social media. Yeah. That products don't even matter anymore.

It is only about the marketing. It is only about the fact that, like, if you have an audience to sell to. Yeah. And, like, you can have a subpar product and still crush in sales and build. I mean, I can't tell you how many products I get, like, sent to me. Yeah. That I'm like, this is garbage. I know.

But, like, but their branding is really on point. Yeah. And their packaging looks really good. So, but you think it's more, you think you have to have a good product, though. Well, I think the, well, no, that's a good point. The product itself doesn't need to be good. It's the positioning of the product. Okay.

So there's a difference. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing, right? Like we're, and it's so cluttered, right? Especially in like, let's just use fitness, health, wellness. Like you do, I mean, Emily has a great resume. Like you have what, goop?

Who else do you work with? Weight watchers. Weight watchers. So as an agency, we work with about 35 to 40 companies. But then certain of these companies, I jump in as like an advisor, adjunct, member of the executive team. And so the ones. I'm deeply involved in our Goop and Weight Watchers and Ursa Major, Frank and Eileen.

Who are they? I saw that on your bio. Frank Eileen, you don't know them. That's a pretty big company. I know. Maybe I'm just like to have a girl. Yeah. She's in L.A.

It's a female founder. It's in L.A. It's sort of they're really known for their button-up shirts. That's why I don't wear button-up shirts. Maybe that's why. I wear like gym clothes 24 hours a day. Yeah. And I got dressed up for you.

I put a belt on. So that's for you. Okay. But what I was going to say is that, so it's not so much the product you're saying. It's more about the packaging, like the positioning, like all these. Like, give me an example. Well, so it depends on your goal because I actually, what we do, right, we try to think about things as a hundred-year brand. And in that case, the product really matters because.

Oh, that's for, you know what I mean? For longevity. Yeah. I mean, in terms of like, like with apparel, probably the biggest lifetime value trigger is fit, right? So if you buy a pair of leggings or whatever and they don't fit or they make you like they're not flattering, you just are not going to, but that's case closed. Like you're not going to buy them again. Like with women's apparel or really any apparel, the delivery of the product against the promise is very important. So if you're promising these leggings make your butt look good,

they better do it. You know what I mean? Otherwise, it's a one and done purchase. And you can, and that happens a lot on social as these product-based companies get stood up and then they're gone or their market share isn't defensible because the product, they don't understand why people bought it in the first place and they don't deliver on that. So like Home Depot, this has become a really core example for me is like their garden center business is like this, it's the biggest part of Home Depot, which I didn't know, but it is the garden center. It's like this $20 billion year business. And the way that it didn't, it wasn't always like that, but the team did a really good job obsessing over how, like, I don't know if you, I've tried to garden and it's been a disaster.

So I'll go spend like, yes. It's hard. Like you go spend like $1,000 and then it doesn't work and you never spend another penny. It's like, why bother of all the time and the expense? So they realized that because their repeat rates were so horrible. And so they started to obsess over genetically modifying the seeds to make it easy to succeed and that it would stick and that it would grow. And one of their criteria for it for those seeds was what they called flower power power,

which was that it visually looked so good in your garden that the payoff against what you're trying to get. is like super amplified. Do you know what I mean? So whatever you're promising, I think that's a good way to think about building a hundred year brand is like, okay, this is our product promise. We promise that our clothes are always going to fit and that they're going to make you look good and that they're going to be durable or whatever you're looking for in your workout clothes. And like if you're the one to deliver on that the most, then you win the right to their next purchase, right? That's what you're trying to do as a brand. Do I win almost like this annuity of their future revenue streams? And the other thing that's in Lulu Lemon, actually, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

It was a recent example. Like, what's the central product innovation is very important. And when you – I was going to ask you about them. I was just waiting – just finish what you're going to say, and I was going to bring something up. Go ahead. Well, I mean, it's – if you think about people's purchasing, you don't – you probably – first all, you're probably getting gifted everything. But you don't need more work out clothes, I'm guessing.

You've probably got drawers full of this. So what makes people purchase is emotional. I don't need it. but I want it, either because there's some zippy new feature or because it adds to my identity, you know? It's interesting you say that. So, okay, Lulu Lemon is a great example because I find it to be tired. Yes.

Right? Yeah. Very tired. And then you have now, let's say, let's go with Allo, right? Because alo's become the new Lulu Lemon that I think, I think that's become tired also, but they're now going into luxury, which is a whole other situation. Did you see that? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I did see that. And it's interesting because they've done, I think, an incredible. incredible job of like, you know, knocking Lulu Lemon off its, you know, pedestal. Yep. And coming in as like kind of like that brand, like that, the one that's very generic, like the kind of like generic with fitness clothes. You have a million companies. Yeah.

But that one's like really good at it. Yep. Because they have good fashions. They have good, good styles. But what I always find interesting is they're quality. They're not the greatest in quality. Yeah. Right.

It's like a one season, two season. It loses. It's like kind of like, you think. But they're charging a fortune. Yep. And they have now, they've been able to brand extend into, like, different studios, into luxury. Yep.

Like, in your opinion, why do you think, like, what did they do differently than Lulu Lemon? Who's kind of doing the same thing, but they, is it just because they didn't innovate fast enough? They lost their cool factor. Like, why did they lose the cool factor? Why did Al-O-B, like, as a case study, I'm curious to ask you, because they were able to, like, get out of the clutter and be that brand that everyone, like, even men who don't work out, know about. Yep, yep, yep. Right?

And the other two in there are Beyond and Viori. Yeah, I was going to say, Beyond and Viori did a great—Beyond just got bought. Oh, did they? Yeah, for, like, 400 million. You know who bought them? Levi's. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Beyond is—I know why Beyond does well, though. They're very comfortable, like the actual, like, and they fit well. Yeah. That's why, but I don't, that's not the only reason, but I think that's at least you feel good wearing their clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Viori also did a great job. Yep. And they're crushing it. Yep. They're killing it. So I think Viori extended in a lifestyle the most effectively out of all of them. Like when I travel, well, I feel like the whole airport, you know what I mean, is filled with people and you see the little rectangle. I think the external branding really worked for them, which not everybody does.

Yeah. And they nailed, they moved it. into lifestyle, I think, the most effectively. But look, what you're saying is true, it's true for everybody. The Viori. Yeah, the Aviator Nation does that too. It did very well. But usually you could look tacky. Yeah, you've got to do it just so. But I mean, and also, what does it stand for? Who do you become when you wear the brand? That's a really important thing. And I think that Lulu Lemon lost sight of that. So it's two things. One is the product innovation. You've always got to stay ahead of her. And it's like there was, Hermes is always like the case study for doing that

because they put their stake in the ground of how do you change but be the same? And that's always like core pillar for their assortments. How do we change but be the same? The essence of what we're doing is the same, but it always feels modern. It's always like the way they say it is if it's too focused on nostalgia, it's saying that there's something wrong with today. It's saying that yesterday was better. But if you focus on heritage, you're embracing the present. And so you're always bringing excitement to the present day and how you articulate yourself visually in the present day. And I think Lulu Lemon needs to, they need to figure that out. In many brands, it's not just them. Everybody gets, they're, they're one of the biggest, you know, consumer brands in

the world at this point. And that, I think it's them Nike and Adidas. Like, they're big, you know. Yeah, they're really big. But in this day and age with social and all these upstart, there's no barrier to entry. You could start something today and you can take a run at them. You know, there's no, it is hard to protect your customer in this day and age. And one of your biggest offenses to do is product strategy. And if it, but to do that effectively, you have to understand what you were doing for them in the first place. So we stand for quality. We stand for it being flattering. But you also stand for it making her cool. I think that they, when they went out to all those yoga studios and they were on all the coolest instructors, like they, they gave her an identity to step into,

which is, you know, health as a lifestyle. Yep. And it's part of her achievement oriented concept of herself. She's optimizing everything about her life. That's one of the things. Like, it's one of the core tools that as all these achievement-oriented women are optimizing their decor. I mean, everything about their lives. There's ambition in it. You know what I mean? And I think that they lost, I don't feel ambitious when I wear Lulu Lemon. Right. But it's interesting because you mentioned that one program that kind of put them on the map when they, all the Lulu ambassadors back when they started 25 years ago, whatever it was, right? Again, why doesn't it work today? It's still the same thing. You're going after the hot, quote-unquote, like the cool, hot

trendy, whatever, trainers, coaches, whatever, you're using them as ambassadors. You get their audience, they promote it, they're wearing it. Why does that, because that is about building and kind of creating a community, which we all here is so important. Why did it, why did it flatline? I don't, so I don't know if they're still doing it, but I'll tell you, like, so I thought they were. I see it in the stores. So let me tell you the story and tell me what you think about this. Yeah. So a friend of mine who I am doing, this brand, brand repositioning thing that I do with her and her company. She lives in Marin. She's a CMO. There are four stores next to each other in Arryn. Like, this is perfect. It's Lutlin Lemon, is Viori, it's beyond, and it's aloe. And they're like all in a row.

You know what I'm talking about? There's like that off the highway thing in Marin. So beyond bombs into town, they're the new guy on the block. Those three are already there. And so they came in and they did a two-week partnership with the coolest yoga studio. It's called Now or something like that. I can't remember what it was call. But anyways, there's like the Chachi yoga studio in Marin. And I'm sure that this is just their playbook. Okay, this is what we do when we open up a store. You know, so they went in, they did a two-week partnership with the studio. And it was the week leading up to the store opening and then the week after. That was the two weeks. And they, there was signage. They had co-branded classes, you know, I'm sure, like they're, whatever it was. And they probably

had gear and whatever else. And then they took video in the studio. And then when they did the store opening, they invited everybody and they did all these like produced videos, edited out videos from the classes. And it was supposedly packed. And she said she spent like a thousand dollars that are that night. And she's been back three times, gotten her son hooked on it. And like she doesn't go into the other ones. So how much energy, you know, things lose energy, you know, as the age. And you've got to go fluff the pillows. And it feels to me like their product innovation isn't there. They've probably lost a lot of the team. That's what a lot of the comments I got on Instagram. That's hard too because and then everyone's like, oh, they created

Lulu Lemons so they get stolen away. So you lose team. It gets hard to hang on to talent. Yeah. And there just doesn't feel like there's energy and the product innovation. I don't think it's the cool brand anymore. And they're probably not using that kind of creativity at the community level. And I don't, I mean, it's there for them. They can go get it, you know, go get it back. But right now it feels like they're in a wall. How much of it is luck also or like what just, you know, like you never really can do all the planning in the world and it just doesn't and do everything right and it just doesn't work it's still flat lines yeah do you know what I mean like like it's interesting like Viori did a good job but you know like there's been a lot of these other brands I see they're

like they look better they're great and like it's just like can't get can't get arrested yeah and you don't think it's a product problem you think they just don't know how to I think there's a lot of I think that there's like like I think Alow does it really well I keep on going back to that for the, for the girl, for women. Like I think Viori, what I like it, but a lot of men and women love it and like they travel with it, a lot of leisure stuff. I agree with that. Like at the mall here, at Century City Mall, you have kind of what in Marin, you have in like the

one line, you have beyond, Allo, Viori, Lulu, and there's like another one. I can't remember, I can't even remember what it is, right? Yeah. And Allo is the one that always has people in. and out, in and out all day, all day, all day, beyond, you can shoot a cannon through that place. Yeah. I don't know why, but like, they just got sold, but, you know, Viori had, it's, it's a vibe. Yeah. It's about a vibe, I feel. Yeah. Yep. You know, like, how do you create a good partnership, events, whatever, like, yeah. I'm just wondering, I mean, I know I'm going down

this tangent of stuff because I think the fitness and wellness and health space is like a trillion dollar industry. Yeah. And it's just never ending. Never ending. Never ending. When I finished, when I sold my app situation, I was, like, I thought, okay, like, how many more apps and fitness can there be?

Like, God, like, five minute workouts, six minutes, please. And everyone, like, I'm like, and now, since then, there's been like 50 other apps that sold for $100 million, $80 million, $600 million. I'm like, you don't even have to reinvent the wheel. No, you don't. Like, that's what I find interesting. Yeah. I agree. That space is like infinite. It's infinite, yeah.

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So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to join AMP. com slash gen to learn more. That's joinamp.com slash gen because strength should fit your life. Okay, so you said Viori, what else have you seen, like, what brands in that space have you thought done, has done very well in personal positioning, branding, marketing? It doesn't, it doesn't have to be, it can be anything by. the way doesn't have to be in the yeah um well you work with goop what do you think of them now i'm obsessed with goop i'm wearing gwin okay yeah she has a new yes yeah okay yeah that's nice nice sweater i mean look

i think i mean i'm deeply in it yeah i know you're like in the weeds over there i know yeah you kind of fall in love and now it's all you know like that they they did a fantastic job from from the get go though yeah you know with that brand that's right i mean if you this is why i love goop they're like it it it is a truly feminist brand. And it's not that I'm some turbo-strident feminist because I'm actually, I'm actually, maybe quietly a feminist. I actually, I think every population deserves to be activated. It's not, like, but what I love about Goop is that it really is about supporting and equipping women to live their richest life with the greatest degree of agency and validity. And that there, if, like, we did this whole brand exercise last summer. And the, the whys of that brand, why does that brand exist, right?

First of all is to support women in pursuing themselves, you know, and that is a concept that you and I are probably, that's probably our Venn diagram is bullseye, right, is just the pursuit of self, you know, and that that is what that brand is about. And it's also, secondly, about getting rid of the cultural headwinds that might prevent women from having the most honest pursuit of themselves, whether it's about divorce or sexuality or whatever, you know, just trying to clear the mud out of the water so that women really can just go for it. whatever they want to be, you know? And I think that it also is a role modeling brand of like, what is modern womanhood about? What is modern feminism? It's not like it was, I don't know, for around the same age. I'm 51. So when I was first working, it was in the 90s. And I was often the only woman in the room. And like it felt like a little bit of a, I guess a fight, you know, now I don't think that's the case at all. Yeah. So now what is like we're probably fighting against ourselves in a lot of ways and like what what's in our way, you know, and what is the conversation

around maybe it's about restoring softness, you know, to being a strong woman. And that's something that, you know, we, Gwyneth and I have talked a lot about. And that her whole vision around women is just really resonates with me. And I think she has been a force for changing kind of cultural conversations. And I think that brand. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And she doesn't get, yeah. And by the way, it was so interesting. It's like, you never would have thought that when it started. Like, people probably, like, poo-pooed her, like, oh, when I paltrow, what does she know about, like, business or branding? Yep. I mean, she, I think she surprised everybody.

Yeah, she's like, I mean, honestly, like, I mean, and she, it's like, there's like, it's like, it's been a while. How long has it been around already? I've been almost 15 years. I mean, that, to me, is crazy. I know. It feels like it was just yesterday. I know. And if you think about, if you, this is the thing with awareness and with branding, it is really hard to create saturated levels of awareness.

Yeah. Like, and if you have. ask anyone, ask any woman in this country, name a lifestyle brand. I bet you anything. They would say Martha Stewart and Gwyneth and Goop. And I bet they couldn't think of a third. And so to have accomplished that level of awareness, but then also the trust of like, okay, I need a recommendation for something. Everybody trusts what they recommend. So that intersection of awareness and trust is very, it really is hard to do. Yeah. And it's one of those brands. I think it's just a good guy brand. and I'm glad it exists.

I think brands change. I feel the same way about Weight Watchers. I feel like it's a good guy brand. There are certain brands that believe in their customers, that champion their customers, I think live on the noble side of life, you know? I have this thing I'm obsessed with from this poet of like he was talking, Seamus He's my favorite poet. Really?

But he's his Irish for him and read him. It's beautiful, it's beautiful, beautiful writer. And he said that when he came from this like farm family in Northern Ireland, and he was like, he felt guilty when he fell in love with poetry. but he, because they dug with their hands, you know, his father and, you know, he was digging with his pen, is how he put it. But he was like, you know, from the, from the first line that you write, poetry lands on the side of life. And it has to do with the angularity of the words and the syntax and the surprising things that you put together. And because its whole point is to surface the sensitive sides of our nature and convince us that that's the right side of our nature in the face of so much that would tell us it's the wrong side in the world.

Wow, yeah. That, and I think brands, so to him, you know, there was a, there was a why of the vocation of being a poet. But I feel like what people do who build brands, there's a why of that vocation too. I think that there's a, you could use it in a way to make the world better, you know, that you help build the fact, the reason that we have so many family values in the United States. We're all focused on family values. We grew up watching growing pains and all that, you know, it's like in our media, you know, like we've been bred that, you know. But it also is in all the ads that we watch on the Super Bowl. And it's in the fabric of the advertising that we receive is the values that we all share.

And so especially right now when everyone's fighting and, you know, I think that brands actually can play this institutionalized role of landing us all on the side of life and making, helping us live on the noble side of our natures. I really think that. And I think Goop is one of those brands. I think Weight Watchers is one of the, they're brands that can help us live in that set of values. You know what I mean? And there are people who've stayed true, like, look at Tide, right? Yes, I'm obsessed so tied. Yeah.

But they've done a great job of keeping their position for, God knows how many years, right? Decades. Decades. They've been the dominant in the category for decades. So what do you think they've done in simple terms? What have they done exceptionally well to, like, keep their market share? Yep. So it's the perfect example of going back to the active where it's product strategy and it's marketing.

So if you think about CPG is really good at this. They know what they have promised to the customer. So Tide is about fighting 100% of stains, making clothes smell good, and turning laundry into an act of maternal love. It is all, it is its positioning in the market is the robust premium family detergent, right? And the reason, if it never changed this product, so if we walked into the grocery store, we look at the shelves and it's just same old Tide, they would lose their market share. But their collabs and their innovative new flavors of Tide is constant, but they also go back to that marketing. letter. So when they do a collab, it's with Fabriz, because they know that their central promise is to make clothes smell good. Or when they evolve a new type, it's sport. Because as I'm sure you know

with your kids, the entire American family now revolves around the kid's sports. And they're all about family. So they have to position into sports. So now if Lulu understood, you know, self-consciously, this is our promise to the customer. We keep her looking and feeling cool. And like, this is an empowering part of her identity. We keep the best fabrics and we constantly innovate on making her legs look better and better and better in those leggings. That's the case. So what would you say if you were working with a Lulu Lemon, if they were your client, what would you say the first thing that they should do to start, you know, becoming relevant?

Product innovation, technical innovation. Obsessed over finding a fabric that suddenly makes you look so fit and trim. And, you know, that when you look in the mirror, you are so psyched about it, you know. So I think they've got to put a name on that and a handle on that, you know, whether they take their line and bring it to something new, right? Or it could also be colorways, right? That's a lot of, like, color is the easiest thing in the world. It's the easiest way to drive product strategy and is so under leverage,

but you've got to keep the colorways rolling out. Otherwise, people don't buy it. They're not going to buy their 10th pair of black leggings. You know what? That is exactly true because why I was buying so much aloe stuff was because every day they'd have another tone of color that I liked. I'm like, oh, that's bright red, not. the dull red. Okay, I'll get that. Oh, there's an orange that's a little bit more of this.

Like, I have about 47,000 pairs of pants and I don't wear any of them anymore, but that I just keep on buying because I, I'm like the shiny ball. It's a nicer color. Yeah. They did a great, that's a, I think that's a really good point. Yeah. It drives emotional purchasing because you don't need more leggings. That's 100% true. Okay, how about this one? Poppy versus Ollipop, right? Both of them are going to, like, one just sold for, what, a couple, one billion and a half, I don't, a lot, a billion point four or something. The other one's could sell, I think, today for a billion. Yeah. But I think Poppy kind of like went, came up a little bit higher. Yeah. Right? What, but Ollipop was out maybe a couple years earlier.

Okay. What do you think, why do you think Poppy, like, kind of has been like, like, won the game a little bit, or so far? I don't, I don't, I actually don't know because I haven't studied those and I don't drink. I don't drink it either, by the way. My husband buys the poppies for the kids. But I mean, I would guess it was a combination of distribution strategy for one thing. And then social, I bet that social flammability was a big part of that. That was what's going to ask you. What part of this, or how important is influencer marketing? Beyond. Beyond important. So is it that, what's the most effective strategy for influencer marketing? Is it white listing? Is Is it collaborations?

Is it just real? Like, what have you seen works the best? So the typical, I think the, it is a volume game for the most part. So because it is hard to predict who is going to work. So typically you're putting together like almost like a pyramid construct of, okay, we're going to have our base plank of the pyramid, which is just spray and prey. Yeah. Like, we're going to get this.

It's an awareness. It's top of funnel marketing. So let's get this out to as many people. you gifted out to thousands of people a month. And like I was talking to someone recently about a very big beauty brand strategy for this and it's pretty typical for something that's really scaled.

It's let's say 5,000 people are gifted this thing a month. Some percentage of those are actually going to post because you're not getting paid, right? It's just organic gifting. Please, you're hoping they post it, let's say 10% posted. Right, right, right. Some tiny percentage of those is like totally going to hit. And then you dig in with them and try to build on that success.

They, for some reason, are a good avatar for this brand. So that's sort of your base plank. It's a volume game. And then you kind of move it up to your very top macro influencers who might have millions of followers and are really expensive. But you think that they're a good chosen avatar for the brand, that they really represent the identity. Because, again, who do you become when you wear one of these brands?

And I think that top of the influencer period, it's like, that's an important way to show who you become. So that person really represents this. cool, amazing woman who we think you become when you wear these clothes or whatever. And so, you know, I just think it's a tiered strategy, but it's both, it's creating awareness. It's pulling something into culture, you know, and saying that this is relevant and modern and people like you were using it. And then, of course, like that they have influence on their own followers. You know, like you influence your followers. Like they trust you, you know. A lot of people,

though, I will say, you think they have a lot of influence, but they don't convince. convert into numbers. You know, I know a couple of brands that I was working with as a strategist for them. And they were adamant about having a few people come on board that had like three million followers. I don't have five million followers. And they were charging astronomical amounts of money for them to be in partnership. And I was like, those aren't your people. Yeah. I'd rather you take that money and go, you know, wider with like micros that have 50,000, 10,000 followers, and you will get way more bang for your buck and spend way more, like, way less money because I also think the bigger the number of the influencer, the less

engagement they have. Yeah. And less people, like, eyes are on them because that's what happens with Instagram and meta, right? The more, like, you didn't have to pay for your visibility a lot of times. Yeah. Sometimes not. But anyway, long story short, they didn't want to listen, blah, blah, blah.

they went and spent like a million dollars on this person. Yeah. Something ridiculous, okay? Yeah. They ended up selling, I kid you not. I kid you not, $47 worth of product. $47 worth a product. That's awful.

Can you imagine? Yes. Okay, but so I said, let's just do a little experiment. Let's take these 10 girls that I really liked and let's do blah, blah, blah, blah. they sold $460,000 worth of product, and they spent almost no money. Yeah. So the point is, like, I think this is a big, I think a lot of this is like a ruse, right? People assume because they see a big number, oh, this is going to be our, that's going to be our cash cow.

That's going to be our, like, our panacea. And I've yet to see very few people, like, there's certain people who convert, like, there's, like, obviously, Gwyneth is amazing, right? You don't even need any influencers because she's like, you know, she's amazing. Jennifer Annison, I see, does very, she crushes it for all the brands just because she does. Many, many celebrities or many, many people who have these big names and these big followers, they're not converting even a little. Yeah. Like at all.

I just got off a call with one of my brands and they were saying they went to this founder's thing and they came back and told me these things and they're, I don't want to say the names because I don't want to be mean. But they said that they all did these experiments with, like, four of these people that they're like, no one should ever work with them. Okay. Because they will never get an hour. Like, the return on investment is never there. Yeah. I just find all of this stuff to be so interesting.

It's so interesting. So what's your criteria when you chose those 10 women and they blew up? What was the criteria? Well, a lot of it is just I like, I watch a lot of people just because I want to see patterns. Yep. And a lot of it's my gut, to be honest. Like I think when I did this Hot 5 app, most of the people, like what we did was we had five-minute workouts.

Yeah. And then you can stack those workouts if you wanted to. So you can do five minutes of abs, let's say five minutes of glutes. So you can do five, ten, 50 minutes if you had the time. Or you can do the style of workout. So five minutes of yoga, five minutes of strength training, whatever, right? And you can mix a match. Okay.

The other part of it's called Hot 5 was because it's because it's a lot of it. was hot people working out, right? Because everybody likes to look. I don't care what you say about body positivity. I can be canceled right now. I don't care. People want to watch other hot people work out. That's what they want to do. It's motivating for them. Yeah. I don't, it's, maybe that's not PC to say, but that's what it is. Yeah. That's why you see on Instagram all these girls who have, you know, they're not fitness coaches. They don't nothing about fitness or in like in the science. But they have a zillion people looking at them because guess what? what they look good doing it right that's just what it is yeah let's let's call it a spade a spade here

right okay yep so on that app we had i picked a bunch of these people and they're now all all every single every person i picked had like four followers or six followers or like a hundred follower whatever it was yep and now they all have million each one of these people because it's also like you have to have like a i have a little bit of a knack i think of just like recognizing it's the nose I know. It's like I just have a nap of knowing. And then like, and then it's just like just kind of like little things like that. So these 10 girls just to get to your point was I just saw how people, how they were engaging. It was a little bit unique. It was a little bit more original and different. It was authentic, right? Very authentic. It wasn't to produce, but they were really good at like the jibber jabber. Right? Like there are some people who are just really good at connecting to them. their audience in a way that makes people feel like, you're talking to me, right? And there are other people who are just really shitty at it,

but they're really good at, like, content creation. So I know a lot of people, and brands do this, and you probably would see this too, is that brands will hire somebody because they're really good at the content creation and it's kind of used as an ad, so to speak. Like, instead of using a, you know, a shy at day or you or whoever as like an ad agency to create this content,

they use these people because they make nice content, but they're not converting for them. And they have a piece of budget for that, and then they have a piece of budget for people who are the converters for them. You know what I mean? Like it's like kind of separated like that. That's what I just find.

I find that that's how I just look at all these things. I think that like not everyone's going to be great at the same thing. A lot of times like you want to have, like you want to like you want to like basically like just like flood the market with the stuff. Yep, right? Tell me what you tell me, like, you know, give me an example of a brand that you've worked with that you've kind of utilized some of your tricks, like your first principles. Like how, talk about your first principles. So the first principles. Am I talking too much? Because I was like, okay. I actually am learning from you. And I agree with everything you just said, by the way. So what I realized, sort of I started all this doing consulting. So I spent years building startups and then I, you know, moved on from that.

What was your claim to fame? Like what company kind of put you on the map? As doing this work, I mean, Jenny Kane was a big one, I think, in the apparel industry, because it was a very successful. It was, for one thing, it was a really big revenue drive. But it was the creation of the world through the digital ads that I think was so, it was the right brand at the right time and using the channel in a way that I think people hadn't used it before. You know, at that a sort of elevated price point and being willing to create a world like that in kind of a raw way, but that was like driving to something that was. relatively expensive and, you know, to show that that actually could be done through a casual social ad campaign. But so, yeah, here's an example. So the first, the big daddy, law of gravity, you know, I think that businesses are all basically the same and that if you look under the hood,

you often see a lot of the same pieces and they should work the same way. But there's always a lot of confusion when something gets stuck or starts to slow down. And I think you can always go back to these first principles to get re to figure out what to do you know it's reliable the same way that if i drop something it's going to fall on the floor because there are there are physical properties that govern businesses okay yeah and that help and i and i figured these out by screwing up you know i spent a long time making idiotic mistakes and overthinking everything yes and then i was like okay i need to i just need to like dumb myself down and let this let the plane fly the way it wants to yeah yeah You know, and so the first one of those that really is, like, one of our organizing principles

of chief detectives is that the winners win and they win and they win and they win, period. It just is true. It's like if you, whatever you are doing, right, some of you, you learn it doing content of like, wow, that one really hit. No one cared about this one. There's always asymmetrical results in anything that you do. And I think intellectually, people want things to be symmetrical and thought out and everything else and I wish I could sell five of these and five of these and five of these, but that's not

how it works. Like if you open up a store, you're going to sell a ton of this one thing and like long tail of everything else. So a lot of companies will try to make that long tail work, but that's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to go back to that thing that was kicking ass, you know, and figure out how to build on that as signal. So it's an approach of trying to follow the cash of the business. You just dumb it down. And that's why with, you know, with a apparel companies, it's relatively easy to figure out your assortment because you're building a portfolio of hero franchises. Okay, that one really worked, the cocoon cardigan at Jenny Kane, or the this, or the this, the Nike dunk, that, you know, there are things that you want to

build on. And then that's where you're driving all your collabs. And it's going to keep, it is so much easier to make the winners produce more than to try to get the medium or the low performers to work better. Like your hero product, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And then just build on that hero product. Do you think you see that a lot, right? Like someone does really well in one area and they want to expand and it's like they're spending all this money and time and effort and all these other things when they should have just stayed in their niche and kind of build on that. I see that all the time. Yeah, it happens all the time. And you, you know, if you've got to pull a rabbit out of the hat and get revenue fast, like the strategy should be what can we do to sell more of this? This one

that's already selling the best, what can we do to sell more of that? And when you think about your product development, what was it about that? Okay, was it that it was about travel? Or was it because it was flattering and it made her legs look better? Or what was it about that that we can build on as a franchise to a sort of, to build into the assortment of what that was driving into? It was stripes. Okay, let's create, let's do more stripes. You know, so it is a very overlooked principle. It sounds obvious. It is obvious. But it is so under leveraged. It's shocking. Yeah. And then this like colorways. Okay, that's your top-selling silhouette, don't abandon it.

You know, don't, like, go spend, spend X percentage of your energy trying to build new heroes, but make sure you're giving her novelty colors in that thing every month. Because when, I've looked at, like, a lot of purchase path reports. So, okay, the first purchase include was X sweater or X legging, X shoe, whatever, right? Guess what the second purchase was? What? The same thing in a different color. Guess what the third purchase was?

The same thing in a different color. Like I said, this is like the aloe thing in ten different, in 20 different colors, the same thing. Yeah, she, people, it is a fact. People collect, they've already told you, this is what I like. Yep. So why are you going to go spend a bunch of time trying to find, like something else that they're going to like? And these heroes get abandoned all the time and under leveraged, you know?

Totally. And it's true with people, too, their own, your own sense of what you're good at, you know? Right. Or a talent portfolio or any portfolio approach to anything is going to cluster asymmetrically around something that does better. But the instinct is to allocate resources symmetrically across everything. It's the wrong instinct. Yeah. That's what I mean by Winners Win, is like, wake yourself up a little bit. That's a great point. Yeah. Did you know Americans spend an average of 90% of their time indoors? But do you also know that indoor air can be up to 100 times more polluted than out?

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So get this exclusive podcast-only offer now at Air Doctorpro.com. Use promo code, Hustle 40. Give me another one of these principles. Spearpoint marketing. I was just talking about this with somebody yesterday. So spear point marketing, this is a horrible thing to say, but you don't kill an elephant with a plank of wood. You hunt with a spear, with the point of a spear.

Yeah. You know? But if you look at most people's advertising efforts, they're kind of hunting with a plank of wood in terms of, I'll give you my favorite example, and this is one you're going to relate to. The WNBA, they spent years, decades, and I don't know how much money trying to promote the WNBA. Now, that's plank of wood. You see it all the time, that the ad is at the brand level or even at the category level. Hey, spring dresses. I can't tell you how many apparel accounts we've looked at, and the way that they market new arrivals is at the

category level. We've got new sweaters. We have new dresses. It's the same thing as the WNBA saying watch women's basketball, right? That doesn't, it just doesn't work. If I say this worked for all body types, I will sell zero of it. If I say, I'm self-conscious about my arms and I love this shirt, I'll sell thousands of units. Like you, it is a, it is a mental, it's a, it's a protractor to pull off the board and force yourself to think about specificity of your marketing. So back to the WNBA, decades of wasted money trying to get people understood in women's basketball. But the minute Caitlin Clark comes along, they have the point of a spear. You always want to do star marketing. Whatever the best thing is in that portfolio, you mark it at the tip of the spear.

And that is true whether – so with her, I don't know if this is still true, but at the time, that was the single-most-watched basketball game on ESPN. Yeah. College, pro, men's, women's, and it happened – and everything I read, what I read is the Wall Street Journal. I read it every morning. It's all – I have time for one paper, and it's that one. So I read the sports news. I love it. Yeah, I watch football with my son and my husband. I love metaphorically watching and reading about sports. I think it's such a great, like, it's also a microcosm of life. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree. Yeah. But so that's the perfect spirit point examples. All of a sudden, when they think of the billions of dollars of industry value that they created because of the way that they marketed Caitlin Clark, every cutaway to the ads would be, it wouldn't even be a good play. And they'd be like, man, did you see how she stepped back and took that, you know,

It was always about her and all the articles and the press push. It was about glorifying her. Her, yeah. And that is what put WNBA on the map. Not all that brought. So always it's a good discipline to think about how do I make my marketing message specific? And it's probably going to be more effective. I love that.

So then with Goop, what is their hero product? I really don't even know. Well, the beauty business, they've got a really killer beauty. That beauty product is incredible. Yeah. You know what I use from them? You should get me some because I'm out of it. I will get you some. That is really good. The micro... The microderm, exquisite. Yeah. I love it.

It's awesome. It really is. It is a great product. It is. It is a great product. It is, right? Okay. Is it good quality? I mean, of course, you're going to say it. It's, it is misunderstood. It's actually, it's a big business. It's a very good business. It is, okay. But it is misunderstood at the general population level, how good that product is. Like, they do not mess around. Like, it is... I know. I know. I couldn't believe it. I got as a gift one time and they're like, I'm like, oh God, I'm not even going to use it. And I'm like, I'll use it one time. I was like, this, it made my skin shine better and like glow more than anything else I've ever used. Yeah. And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting here

or whatever. I'm not, I'm not getting paid to say this. I'm saying it's true. It's really good, right? Yeah. But so is that not their, so what is the hero? Which if other, it's that, it's the is the microgram. Is that the big one? That's a big one. Peptide, their peptide serum, I think is the number one seller. That's also a very good product. The one I used both of those, the eye masks I am obsessed with. And that's a good, that's a good, I'm going to send you those too. I'll send you a whole thing. Send me a whole thing. Now that we're friends. Yeah. I got you. I got your skincare cover. Thank you. But the, the eye masks are like an, I mean, I'm like bag lady. It's a big problem for me. So I like. Really? I don't see any bags in it. Well, I use the eye mask this for.

Oh, there you go. I'm not trying to make this an ad, but they're just really good, especially for people who are on the go and busy. But those, they have probably four or five hero products within that beauty business. But I think the ultimate hero of that is the editorial product and the curation and the travel tips. And that, you know, that to me is what drives the trust of that brand. Yeah. By the way, you know what the brand I use for, like, concealer? Tell me what you think.

Merit. I think I saw your name. So I don't know how good it is or not good. I don't know how to put makeup on. I'm like, I'm literally like, I'm terrible. I try to put it on today. I probably look like a clown. I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm like, I think this goes here. Just not good. But I like, I think I like the merit, like, overall. It's clean, isn't it? It goes with your ethos. It's a really no fuss. Well, just in the sense that she really tried to make it easy to put on for people who were busy and, like, didn't want to deal with it that much.

Okay. Well, why would it be harder than putting on a different concealer? Well, because, well, the concealer might be different. But for example, that flush bomb, like, everything was just sort of, the use case of it was like, okay, if I'm in the car, could I put this on? You know, or like, I had literally five minutes, could I put this on? Does it do well? Yeah. It does do really well.

Yeah. What happened with, like, Cracker Barrel? Do you remember them? Yeah. You did a video with them a long time ago or something I thought. Like, they couldn't, what did they do to their brand? Well, I mean, that was they, I don't know. So they changed the logo and the whole internet got really fired up about it.

And it was, I mean, but, you know, it goes back to that. Because they kind of just, they were like screwing around with their main audience, their main demo. Yeah. I think, but they just changed the logo. What's the difference? Well, they took that guy, you know. I don't know anything about them. Yeah, I mean, it's not that I'm a big cracker real customer, but they.

Really? No. That's shocking, Emily. But go on. No, I mean, they took the, the old Yeha guy out of the, I don't know how much people actually care. But I think it just was, it became a sort of hot button on the internet, I think, because they screwed up. It's a nostalgia brand. It's sort of what we were talking about before, but it is nostalgia.

It's about yesterday and permanence and never. The promise with a nostalgia brand is we won't change, you know, because. Oh, versus the heritage you said earlier, right? Yeah, our versus just like something that's, I mean, they still need to change too. But you, so you know how Hermes, like, they are good at changing but staying the same. yeah that's a trick cracker barrel changed and they changed you know they needed to find a way to change and stay the same and instead they changed and they changed and that's why people revolted because the central promise of that brand is we're not going to change right it's a nostalgia

brand so that makes sense actually what about like okay so i saw the whole you said this before about growing a business and growing yourself is like a dual journey right what does that mean because you're about like fully like kind of everything should be dual like everything should be encompassing together right like your personal growth and the company it all kind of they're not separate entities yeah basically yeah right so can you kind of talk more about that and like how what you mean by all that like is it as people are growing on their own their company then evolves and changes is that more or less what you're meaning well i think the american the american way the american when i was like 22 or, you know, just starting my career. Right. I would, I subscribed to Forbes magazine. I was a liberal arts major. I didn't, you know, this wasn't my thing. Yeah. And my mom was like, I wanted to go be a professor. I wanted to be an intellectual, you know, and my mom was like, no, you're going to go to work. Then you can decide later if you want to do that. So anyway, so I... Where did you go to college? I went to Chapel Hill, University of Carolina. That's a great school. And

And then you went to Stanford, right? Yeah, I think I saw that. Yeah. So I went to Chapel Hill, and then I moved to New York City, and I started doing consulting, and I would read Forbes Magazine because it was 1996. It was different. By the way, back then, that's what people were doing. That's what you did.

There wasn't an internet yet. Yeah. You know, it wasn't a wide, there really wasn't. And so the quote from Malcolm Forbes in the opening masthead of Forbes magazine, I don't know if it still is, but at the time, it was a proverb. And it was, with all thy getting. get understanding. And that, to me, that was his approach to capitalism, you know, was that the American way was to build a business and succeed. But in the process of doing that, that you're

succeeding as a person and in the world, and there's an ethical point of view to it, and there's a pursuit of self that happens in the crucible of working. So your pursuit, presumably, has been fitness. You know, you've used that as a focal point for developing out, whether it's, perseverance or, you know, all of the traits that you're trying to get in yourself, you know. And I just have used business for that because my, this was not a natural thing for me to do. You know, I really am very, very shy and introverted as a person and it's always been a lifelong. I know, isn't that cute? But, no, so it was hard for me, you know, when I was younger and, you know, like.

Look at you now. Yeah, look at me now. I know. But, I mean, but even things like, you know, you always have to check. to be successful, you have to cultivate yourself. You know, you have to figure out your ego. You have to do things wrong and be like, that's not, I'm not going to do that again, you know, in terms of how you treat, I mean, the whole thing is an exercise in maturity. It is the inner journey of leadership and of, you know, so just using whatever it is that you're trying to do and understanding that what you're getting at the other end of that is you. It is you, you know.

It's so true. Yeah. You know what I think that, what I think I saw you talk about, like the fact that, like, you really leaned into what you're good at. Mm-hmm. And so kind of like that resonated with me because, like, I went to business school. I did all the things. Like, I have, like, a bunch of degrees and all that stuff. But the culture of working in an office was, like, sickening for me. I did it and I hated it.

And so, because I wanted to ride, I rode my bike to work in my little shorts and I were back. Like, I loved being active. So what I just did, and I tell this to people all the time, is like, I, used fitness as my business as like I created businesses around me liking being fitness and fitness stuff and making an entrepreneur in that space. And so I always say like people should like really know what they what they like and then create around that when they can. Otherwise, you're always fitting a circle into a square and you're never going to thrive and flourish in a real way, right? Like when you are the most authentic and you're able to do that. It doesn't always

happen. You can't always do that. But if you can, you'll just. just be more successful versus, you know, trying to do something that you're not even good at. Like, I, see, people, tell me what you think. I think that people should do what they're really good at and then get other, delegate or find other people to balance you out by doing the things that you're really bad at. Some people say, no, I don't like that idea. Like, you should get good at the other things that you're bad at. But I'm like, well, why?

I'm just going to be bad at them. I'm not going to be as good. I don't want to do them. And then therefore, why even do that? What do you think? I heard it. Well, it's winners win. Winners win. I love it. I love it. You pour water on what, but I'm, I'm curious about when you did that. So how long were you in an office type thing? And was it scary to do that? Or you just were like? No, when I was in a, well, listen, I, my background is I used to, my first real job was with the NBA. I worked for the Toronto Raptors. And then I did that for a year. And then I went back to business school after that. So I had my undergrad and all that. Then I went to work for the Toronto Raptors. went back to school for my business. And then I got recruited to go to BMG music. So I was going to go back to the Raptors, actually, or go back in the sports world. I had a job, I had a job at Nike

offer. I had a lot of different things I could have done. But I got this really good offer to do, kind of do this for a record label. And then, I'm Canadian, by the way. Okay. I was about to ask you. Yeah. And then I was working in Toronto. And then I got a job to come to L.A. to work for another record label. Like they come, you know, that's how I got to LA. And I just hate it. Like, I mean, in a world of corporate, it wasn't even that corporate. I just had to like be somewhere at a certain time. Like you had to be there. I had to have meetings at a certain time. I had to do this at a certain time. And my ADD was not doing well with that. Like I wanted to do, I wanted to have autonomy. Like I was much better when I didn't have someone tell me where I had to be, what I had to do

it, how to do it. Even in a record label environment, I was still running a marketing division or like very, was like on a fast track. So my thing was I didn't, and I had other jobs too that I went back and forth with. But bottom line is I just said, you know what, this is not, I can figure it out. And I'm going to like, I'm actually going to, I was on a visa so I couldn't just work anywhere. So I had to become a personal trainer and make money on it like under the table. So I can then like basically survive and living in L.A. I was very young. I quit my job. And that's how I started in the fitness journey. I became a trainer for like five minutes. minutes. But what I did was I went back to all of my relationships in the, in the music world,

because when I was working in the music space in Toronto, in L.A., in New York, I was working with all the big labels. I created an opportunity for myself. So I went to these labels, and I said, listen, I'm now a trainer, but I'm no longer a marketing person. I want you to pay me a retainer to train all of the, all the different artists. So when they get ready for a tour or a video, I will train them. And they're like, what do you mean train them? Like how? I'm like, I mean, like physically train them. And they're all, the first guy from MCA was like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, no, this is what I'm doing. And I know how the budgets work. And at the time, they would give these people, like huge budgets to do whatever they wanted to do, right?

Okay. And so I said, just give it to, let's do it for, I'll do it for free for a month. Like, I'll train whoever for a month. Because if you go to a gym, you're capped, right? Like, you just get like 50 bucks an hour, whoever you're training, or 10 bucks an hour. And so I already had, like, I kind of used my transferred skills of like what I had, went to the label and said, let's create this thing. Finally, someone gave me the opportunity. I did a good job. And then they're like, okay, you're hired. So then I became a label trainer, which means I went to all the labels and trained a bunch of like artists and got paid retainers. So I wasn't getting paid hourly. So then I was able to like work in the states properly. So because I was getting paid by a label anyway. Do you

You know what I'm saying? Does that make any sense? So I just took a chance on myself. And I thought to myself, like, what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work out. I'm no worse off now than I was, you know, a month ago. I knew I didn't want to like work at a label as a person who was like day and day out doing something that wasn't like, didn't feel comfortable for me because I just, I can't sit still. Like even doing these podcasts for like hours on, like on end is very difficult for me. That's why I have a treadmill beside me. So I have to move all the time. My brain does really well when I'm in movement. And if I'm stagnant too long, I get like, I'm like a caged animal.

Don't do well. So I knew that about me. So I think a lot of this is self-awareness. I knew myself very young of like what I'm capable of, what I like, where I thrive, and where I don't thrive. And then I leaned really into where I knew I can be okay. And I always, like, and I tell this to people all the time that like you got to like, the only difference. between you and the person that is really successful is that they believed in themselves, like, just a little bit more to try and, like, just keep on going, you know? Because, like,

I think we get really stuck in our own heads of self-doubt and we're scared of failing and rejection. But at the end of the day, like, that's what life is, right? Like, it's more failing and more rejection than the positive. And if you kind of accept that to be what it is, you'll get, you know what I mean? The ratio will eventually even out somewhere if you just, the more chances you give yourself, the more chances you have it succeeding. And so I always live by a certain mentality is like rejection, always better than regret. Like, don't let that happen. So I will always put myself out there to a fault. And now I'm so desensitized to the word no, to rejection, to failure, because I'm so used to it. It doesn't bother me anymore. So I'm expecting to fail.

I'm expecting for things not to work out. And if they do, great. And if they don't, I'm okay with it. I'm just going to keep it going. Moving on, moving on, moving on. And so when I changed this whole thing to fitness and stuff like that, like, it was scary, but what's my option than to just live in this myopic area of like, okay, I'm just going to do what everybody else does. Like, I'm here. I'm always looking for chasing what you want and not just accepting what you get. And so that's my, I like have certain things on like repeat in my head. Yeah, that's incredible. I'm jealous of you. What do you mean? You're doing it. I am, but it's, it, it, that, your fearlessness and like, you're, you're a hustler, you know?

Yeah, I am a hustler. Yeah. There's, I know there's a whole big, like the movement on like, you know, sitting still and manifestation thinking things are going to come to you and all these things. I'm a believer that if you want something to happen for yourself, you have to chase it and go after it and, like, be relentless about it, not just be passive. There's so much competition. And I believe that there's room for everybody, but I believe that you also, no one's

saving you. No one's going to give you that thing. If you want something and if you're not someone who's born into like, you know, a very rich family or a family with like a lot of connections and nepotism and all the stuff, like I wasn't. I had nobody to help me. I had to like figure it out on my own. Like that was like that worked to my advantage because it made me hungrier to like do it.

Right. And that's also not a bad thing, right? Like, I think that people have to just give themselves the, like, have to be self-aware of what they're good at and then just go for it. And like, just not even look back. Like, just prepare and expect to fail. Prepare and expect to get no is. Prepare and expect to like, you know, get the door slammed on you. And then you've got to find another attempt somewhere else. No, I love it. It's so good. I agree. And you said something really important, which is so what if it doesn't work. work out, I'm just going to be back where I say that all the time. Like you, what are even in the context of business too. Like if we go for it. If it fails, we're probably just, it's like the warp wall. Yeah, exactly. You're just going to be back there. So why not even? Like, right. While you were talking and funnily enough, when I was watching your content, I was thinking to myself, I was going to ask you, I'm going to ask you right now. Someone is, you're so smart, right? You know what all these other brands should be doing. You have all the information. You have

all of it in your brain. Why didn't you start your own thing? your own product, your own brand, your own whatever. Because you're the one who, like, you have the knowledge base, right? Is it just something you're not interested in doing? You don't want to do it? Like, why didn't you? Well, I did, and it was an ad agency. So when I was building...

Oh, you're right. You did do the ad agency. That's true. Yeah. That's true, but not a product. But the reason... That's true. But that's a service business versus a product business.

Yeah. I started a company in a way that I wanted... That's actually true, right? But I understand your question. And so I spent my 30s building other people's companies. Yeah. And I, it was miserable. It was just horrible in like every possible direction outside of like my teams, which I

really loved. But I did not want to work with investors after that. After that decade of basically being in a board meeting every four weeks and all of the decision making, the way that decisions get made when something is heavily capitalized and the dynamic and that 40% of your time then goes to. investor relationships and building your next round of funding. I just got very disillusioned with that. And that's not to say there are a lot of great investors out there who really are passionate about entrepreneurialism and funding the next wave of innovation. But for me, that was not a good

match. So I kind of shoved my raft off that dock. And I was like, I'm not building those types of companies anymore. And I want to take more of a portfolio approach with my time because I thought the investors doing it. They were invested in a bunch of things. It didn't really matter if our thing worked out or not. But my whole life and my family and my life, livelihood, we're all in this one thing. And I couldn't control so much of the decision-making and the variables. So I just started you consulting. I want to work on a bunch of stuff at once, to some degree, sell the shovels, you know? And that, I don't want to raise money. So I need something that is immediately profitable. Right. And that is a services business. There was no investment capital

required. It was just me and my time. And I thought it really played into my own strengths because I was able to step back from things and see the patterns and develop frameworks that can be taught to people because that's one of the tricks with the services businesses. How do you make someone who's 23 years old and just graduated from college? They went to a good college, but they still just graduated from college. Yeah, yeah. How do you teach them to do this? You know, because that's the only way to scale the business. So I thought it played into my strengths, you know, and I liked working on all these brands. And then I do this deep dive advisory work when I really fall for something. Yeah. And that really feeds me, you know. This is what you're passionate about.

Yeah. I thought it was a good fit for me. You know, I think it, I mean, And also, you get to, like, it's always new, right? Because there's always a different problem that you need to solve or a different, like, that would work. That's why that works good for my, like, monkey brain, right? Because the same thing, right? Because then you're not doing the same thing day and, day out, day and day out, day out, day out, right? No, that's right.

It's like your treadmill. I mean, but it's also, it's a way to become an expert. Because when you work, the amount of, we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the platform across probably at least 100 brands. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you see all their reports and you see the repeat patterns and you see what happens with products and you develop true expertise. And that was a good fit for me because my, that is my strength is trying to access insights and bring them back in the form of frameworks.

That's something I feel that I'm good at. You're really good at it. But how could I do that if I couldn't see this playing out across so many companies? That's 100% true because you have so much perspective. Right? Because you have all this data to choose from from all these companies that you work with all the time. You know I'm all about finding an edge. The small daily habits that give you more energy, focus, and resilience. But that's why I am hooked on mono-vitality. Most people are mineral deficient, and that means low energy, brain fog, fog, slow-recovery. and dull skin. But Mana flips the switch by giving your body a complete spectrum of minerals

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Go to manavitality.com and use code Jennifer 20 for a discount. That's manavitality.com, M-A-N-N-A-Vitality.com, and use code, Jennifer 20. Do you ever do personal brands, like people, or is it just companies, just consumer? It's just consumer. I mean, goop to some degree via personal brand. Yeah. But it's, and so sometimes I think it's one and the same. But yeah, we just, we work. companies you work on companies and like what okay so I haven't even looked at my thing for that

none of the questions I haven't I didn't even ask you one of them and I wanted to talk about fitness I'm obsessed with that too I mean like I'm just so curious like what what you've learned because you've you've got pattern recognition over a lot of people you know it's interesting I just came back from Miami I just did a TED talk on the idea that I believe that what I learned in the on the on the gym floor was way more important than what I learned in college. Yeah. And so I had this whole thing. It's not even out yet.

It hasn't even been out yet. But basically I said, like, you know, the whole thing is like why your GPA might not matter as much as your squat rack. Because I think the life skills and soft skills you learn from doing, taking fitness seriously, like in any, like it doesn't have to be the gym, it could be something else, what it does in terms of it, not just your discipline, not delayed, well, everything, discipline, delayed, gratification, patience, self-confidence, that to me, I'm going to talk, that's, have propelled anything and everything I've ever done way more than my MBA, way more than anything else I've ever

done. And so I lean really hard in it because that's why I'm like a, I'm like a drill sergeant with people. I think, especially young people, I think that they have to take that idea of like taking some form of fitness seriously will catapult their life in ways that they wouldn't, they don't even know because they don't know what you don't know, right? And I think the self-confidence, like, I think when you asked me earlier, like, why you're like, well, aren't you fear, aren't you scared or don't, like, didn't that scare you? Because here I am a Canadian and a young girl coming to the U.S. had no family, nothing. And I took a chance on myself. I took a chance on myself because I built up my self-efficacy and my self-esteem and self-worth

by seeing myself do things that I otherwise would never have thought I was capable of in my fitness space, in my fitness world, because I was, you know, I would my, I would lift heavier. I would run farther. I would wake up earlier. I would do all of these things that I would otherwise never of probably learn to do if I just never took that path of fitness at a young age. You know what I mean? Like that's, that kind of took me on a whole thing. You should actually, you should watch my first TED talk was on being bold. And that went really viral. And it will explain to you a lot of like my whole thing if you're interested. But I think that fitness is a very important. That's why I think fitness is a microcosm of success in life. I think not just

business, by the way. I'm talking about like personal life, professional life, everything. I think it's super important. I agree. I am going to watch your TED talk. That's on my list. I'm really excited to watch it. I think you'll see why it's a funny little pivot. But I, like, I just think that, you know, building these like keystone habits are so much more important than where you go to school. I agree. You know what I mean? I agree. What do you think did you look? This is your podcast, though, not mine. No, but I was so, I really was genuinely excited talking about this, because I really agree. And I, that was a big unlock for me when I was 30. I was a huge runner. I was an addicted runner. And I heard and I don't have. I could see that.

Yeah, I mean, but I did not have the body type. Like, when you see people who can run, you know, 100% agree with you. By the way, it's so funny, you just said that I had a runner on here. Do you know, Nick Thompson? I saw that on Instagram, but no, yeah, I don't know who he is. I think it's, and I've had a lot of people on here talk about this, that you need to have a very specific body type, in my opinion, to do these long, distant runs or be like a real runner, runner, right? Like, if you're like a woman who has hips and. this and that, it's very, like, that's been a real challenge for me. And I love running. Yep.

You know, but if your body type is not, like, that way, I think there's, there's, like, yes, you can do it. But it's not going to be as easy. Yeah. Right. As, as if you are someone who is more of like a ectomorph. Do you know what an ectomorph is? No. So an ectomorph is someone who's, like, really narrow. They don't have the hips. They don't, they don't, like, they're not someone who, like puts on weight easily. You know what I mean? They're more like lean and yeah and gain like more lean and mean. Yeah. Like a mesomorph like you and I think are more mesomorph but you're a smaller mesomorph is more someone who's athletic built. Right. Like we can we have muscle. We have more of a hips and we're like more of a curvature but we're more like fit like we're more like strong fit in the

middle. Yep. Then you have like the endomorphs who are more of the very voluptuous they're more curvy people. Yeah. So those people, the running will be very difficult, I think, when you're doing these long runs. Yeah. People like us, we can do runs, but it's not as, like I can't run 30 miles every day.

I'll hurt myself. Yeah, you'll, like, yeah, the injuries is what got me. So, so, yeah, I was complaining to my older brother one time about being short because every room I walk in, they were like, I thought you were going to be 5'10. And he was like, he was like, Neanderthal, jeans, I'm short and strong. I was like, you're right. That's our, that's our anatomy. Yeah, you are like that. But I mean, I carry my weight between here and here, so my knees

just got pounded from all the running. Yeah. But so I had to stop, and that was very hard. But it was, because I had this injury. And that's how I learned how to eat, though. I read Dr. Wiles' book, Spontaneous Feeling, which totally changed my approach. I like him. He's incredible. He was kind of the O.G. He is, I think he still is the O. He's the O. He called all of this, you know, transva. I mean, the whole. I mean, the thing. And, but that approach to cellular health, that was the first time I understood nutrition and it flipped my, I had this horrible, which I think most women in our generation do because it was how we were raised and because culturally and through most people's moms is that your, like,

the weight pressure on women growing up was so negative. And that was a real fight for me, was that relationship with food and with weight. And that clouds your self-image. What you, what you're talking about is taking that and making it be empowered, whether you did that deliberately or not. But for me, that was the moment where the weight narrative really changed to be more about self-care and self-love versus self-hatred and all the food negativity. Yeah. Because when you think about optimizing your cellular health, it's the length that straightens out the chain.

That really helped me. And so what you're saying makes a lot, it just really resonates with me that that's been a really that was a positive thing for you to focus on. I also think, yeah, because you don't know my history, I wrote a book called Strong is a New Skinny many years ago. Yeah, I read about that. And the thing is, I think life is about reframes, right? Like, you got to reframe for something that you can achieve versus something that is like, I think anyone could be strong. Anyone could get stronger. Yeah. But not everybody can be skinny. Let's just be honest. Yeah. It's a real struggle for a lot of people like I believe there's a baseline that people have and you can kind of go up and down like

you know a little bit here and there but you're always going to like meet your baseline again that's why these gLP ones are very interesting to me right i was just going to say that yeah it's a very interesting i'm like very curious about how it's like at the beginning kind of stages what happens in five or 10 years from now because what i've noticed with these gLP ones and again this is my opinion everyone so i don't want anyone to come after me but what i what i have noticed is that it flatlines a eventually. And I find that people who I know have been on it for a long time, their appetites are back. Yep. Because you do, like, your body acclimates to anything and everything you do all the time. So, yes, you can cycle it and you can maybe microdose it and all these other things.

But still, like, that's not, that to me is not a solution long term. And you can, and people can say, oh, but there's all these other benefits, inflammation and brain and this and that and the other. okay maybe maybe you know does it help with diabetes yes we know that to be yeah right but i think that shortcuts for your for your weight and for that type of lifestyle there is no shortcut people need to do the hard work you need to eat properly and you need to exercise and so i think that this is thrown a real real kind of curveball into a lot of these things right like even like the idea of even we talked about self-acceptance no one is this is proving that this whole body positivity, you know, movement was a bunch of nonsense, right? Because

the second that someone can shoot themselves with an injection to lose weight, body positivity went right out the window and everyone's now 11 pounds wandering around town, right? So, like, there's a real, like, interesting, like, I think, interesting thing about that in itself. Like, I think that we have to be, like, accepting things that we can get, like, we can do and then work towards those goals because everything I think is like a is like a ripple effect right like if you prove to yourself that you can do the thing that will build yourself confidence and you'll do it more and more and more and more and like maybe you'll you may not be a size zero but you can be a size four or six and eight and be happy with that because you're strong and you're capable and you have you have muscle and you have strength and physical

strength correlates with mental strength and vice versa right like well not it works everything together. So I don't know. These GLP ones are very interesting to me, and I think they're being over, they're being taking too much, people are prescribing them too often, and I'm really concerned about what the fallout's going to be. Well, I, so I have an opinion on this. I can talk to you about this all day. I know, we can. Oh, we should actually, hold on, okay, keep on going. Okay. So quickly on GLP ones. So I've been knee-deep in this with Weight Watchers because they're not prescribed, not only do they prescribe GLP ones, but they have this companion program that is everything that you're saying, which is like, here's how you optimize nutrition, because it

isn't just, it's meant to be used in the context of a lifestyle. But it's been interesting learning about it, because my perception of it was, oh, they're just going to be skinny for the rest. That's actually not true. It's what you're saying, you lose 20 to 30 percent of your body weight. Yeah. And then your body's set points. But what's interesting, and then from there, you've got to, you have to diet, you know, you've got to fight it with behavior. It just makes it easier because it quietes down the food nose or what I think is great. But the interesting thing about it that I think is really nice, is that I've talked to multiple people on these, and when they hit that set point, they're content. They're like, you know, that's where my body

wants to be. And I'm good with it. I feel better. My macros are better. My lab work is better. And I think it allows you emotionally to be content, whereas when you, I've talked to a lot of people about this in the context of the work. A lot of people will lose 100 pounds and still look in the mirror and say, I know the scale tells me, I lost that, but I don't see it. And And I think with GLP-1s, it almost externalizes and makes it an objective conversation with themselves so that when they hit that set point, they're like, you know, I'm good, feel better, look better. That's what I hear from people, and I think that's nice.

What I find interesting about the GLP 1 and Weight Watchers is Weight Watchers based, their foundation was based on these like in-person meetings where people are showing accountability for doing the work. There's a disconnect between the GLP-1s and they took out the meetings and now they're doing the GLP-1s. They still do the meetings, and that's all getting – Julie Rice is going to be doing some really cool stuff. But it's interesting about GLP-1s. The reason they acquired Julie's company is because she was doing GLP1 in-person workshops. Because when you get prescribed those things, you're going through it pretty much alone because most doctors don't have time or even like the learning patterns to understand. And you're feeling all these side effects. You hit plateau points. So the first thing you hit is side effects, like feeling super nauseous.

or whatever it is. And really the only way to get answers around that is to ask the 50 people in that workshop who are going through it at the exact same time as you. There's no one else who has the information. So those workshops become, I think, even more valuable on a GLP1 journey. And then you hit a plateau point.

Then the question is, how do you get past that? And you're like most, I think there are some percentage of doctors probably be right there with you, but a lot of them just don't have time. Right. And it's not their core. So I think actually the workshops

have a lot of relevance in that journey too. Do they wean people? I mean, this, you probably don't know this question, but is there a process of weaning people off of them once they're on it for a while? Yeah, it's called microdosing. And so what they do is they start to stretch out the doses. So I don't know, can you ever get off them? Yeah, that's my question. I don't think so. Because, I mean, maybe, but I think for most people, the hunger will come roaring back. Right. It will be hard. So I think that they're, and I'm not speaking for Weight Watchers. I'm just talking, yeah, yeah, I'm just speaking, like, personally from what I, I understand to be true. The micro, that's what I was saying earlier. People, people who I know in the fitness space, longevity space, health space, I know people who are doing the GLP ones who are, there's no weight problem. It's just they're now doing it for all the other added benefits or because they want to, like, fine-tune. Yeah.

And so they might, they do this microdosing. But, like, even if you're doing that, like, you need to wean off. How do you stay? How do you stay on a medication forever? That's just what people do. You space out the dosing. And so what happens is the hunger starts to come back. Yeah. I've seen it. Yeah.

Many times. But they get used to surfing that. So like the first, I don't know the exact. But when they first start their dosage cycle, they have like no hunger. And then by the end of it, they can feel the hunger. And then it hits again. They redose. So it's just managing the doses.

You downshift it, kind of. But when you do like three weeks or like a nodding. doing it. Do you keep your, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, from what I've seen with people, I've seen people really, the pendulum swing really far back and they got off and they gained their weight back fast because your appetite comes back with a vengeance. Yeah, I think that's right. I think you, I think it's, honestly, I think it's a net positive. I think it really helps people get through kind of that breakthrough period of me, you know. I think so too. What I think it's good for is getting you through the hump. Yeah. Right? Like getting, or like,

Kind of like just like getting the kind of like starting you. Like kind of just igniting the fire. But the problem is people don't just do that for that. I know. Well, yeah. Now there's all the, yeah. But I think it is so hard to lose weight. It really is.

Yeah. Like it's not hard for you. But it's hard for you. Are you insane? It's very hard for me. It's hard. Very hard. Yeah.

And by the way, I'm one of these people you said, asked me earlier, I have a lot of food noise. I think about food 24 hours a day, 24 hours a day. I'm hungry all the time. And let me tell you, working out has done me no favors in that way. I bet. Because I get starving, you know? I know. But I think that I've accepted that about myself.

And I have, but that's my neuroses. It just is. I'm not going to lie. It is. And I work out more, by the way, now I work out more for my mental situation because it keeps me like more in check. Yep. I'm not doing it to lose weight, the fitness stuff.

I'm really not. I just accept the fact that like, I work out because I have to work out for my brain, but... Agreed. Yeah, it's a mental... For me, too. It's mental health. But, yeah, I think it kills...

It's just very enabling. It's a helpful tool. And what is, like, it's a core pillar of all of our lives, is your weight and your health, you know? 100%. Have you tried one in any of these? No. No. No.

Okay, so let's just wrap up this GLP one because we could talk about it afterwards. I want to have all these other questions, but now we've got to go. So, but you're going to have to come back here. I'd love to come back, Jen. Okay, because, like, literally, I was talking to, like, none of my questions were answered. Not one. Not one, except I read co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. That's the only thing I read off of this page.

So, guys, please follow Emily. She is so knowledgeable, like I said, if you're interested in any type of, like, scaling, business, growth marketing, performance marketing, influencer marketing. Anything else? Brand. Brand marketing, obviously. Brand marketing. I forgot the biggest one.

And the combined journey. life and work. That to me is a big one. One question for you, what is your daily routine? What do you do? So I wake up early. I set my alarm for 5.30. So if I actually sleep that night, I wake up at 530. I meditate most days. I drink coffee and do my eye masks. I eat a salad for breakfast every single morning. You do? I do. Yeah. I do a diet called metabolic balance. Now I do weight watchers too. What is this metabolic? It's this weird old German health diet that manages like your metabolic system, basically, it's a health diet. So it's, eat five hours apart. It's one protein at every meal. There's this rule set that's just really worked. I like routine. I like being

in a straitjacket. I like not having, it helps. It's like, I don't even think about it. It's my So tell me what it is. So you have for breakfast, you have a salad? So I have a salad with pear and nuts and seeds and flax oil. And it's this very healthy salad. Okay. And then I don't snack, no snacking. So five hours between meals. And then for lunch, I have another salad. And then five hours. And then I have dinner, which is some form of like a protein, a vegetable, and a fruit. And that's what I eat every single day. And then the weekends are a disaster. So then I eat like a 10-year-old. And then I make up for it. So that's why, you know, sometimes like going on Weight Watchers was great. I peeled off the five pounds that over time with holiday and spring break,

I'll gain. By the way, I still think, to this day, Weight Watchers is the most effective best program out there, bar none. The point system, actually, where I don't think it works. It works. Everything is about portions. Yeah. And then that's how you lose weight. And I think it's still the most effective. It's like the tried and trued one. So anyway, and that was not, I'm not going to pay it by your Weight Watchers. I should be. But anyway, Emily, it was wonderful meeting you. Same, Jen. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Follow Emily.

Bye, everybody.