Habits and Hustle - Episode 520: The Best of Habits & Hustle: Touré Roberts (ONE Church LA Founder)

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

Most high performers don’t struggle because they lack discipline. They struggle because they’re trying to do everything at once and calling it balance. We dive deeper into this in the Habits & Hustle with Touré Roberts. We also chat about why balance is becoming whole instead of splitting yourself into percentages, the difference between losing and being a loser, and why you can’t scale without stretching. Touré Roberts is a bestselling author, entrepreneur, investor, and producer. He is the founder of ONE, a multidimensional community based in Los Angeles, and has built one of the most engaged digital platforms in his space with over 100 million views and more than one million subscribers. This episode is part of The Best of Habits & Hustle, a series where we revisit some of the most impactful conversations we’ve shared. What We Discuss: (00:00) Why balance isn’t about splitting yourself into percentages (00:56) You can do all things well, just not at the same time (23:46) Why growth exploded after leaving comfort and relocating (37:23) The difference between losing and being a loser (39:13) Resilience starts with acknowledging pain (40:25) Doing an autopsy on failure instead of wasting it (48:15) You can’t give your best self to everything at once Thank you to our sponsors: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE40 for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use the code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Amp fit is the perfect balance of tech and training, designed for people who do it all and still want to feel strong doing it. Check it out at joinamp.com/jen  Find more from Jen: Website: https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen  Books: https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Touré Roberts: Website: https://toureroberts.com Instagram: @toureroberts Facebook: @toureroberts Tiktok: @toureroberts

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. So today we have Toray Roberts. He is the founding pastor of the One Church, which is one of the most influential faith and empowerment congregations in the entire world. Is that correct? Is that correct? Yeah, only because it's here in L.A. So it's not the biggest, but the reach because of those who come and those who subscribe to it makes it influence. So it's influential city plus influential people come there. Yeah. That's part of it. The other part of it is online. We have so many we have like over 700,000 subscribers to our channel.

How many? 700,000 subscribers to our channel. On YouTube, right? Yes, of course. I saw that. I couldn't believe how many that is. Yeah, it's a lot. Which is a whole other, how did that even happen?

You know, it's crazy. Well, first of all, I want to start by saying, before we started this podcast, when I was asking you, how do you even become a pastor? I'm Jewish, I don't know. I want you to tell me that whole thing. But I was saying that for those who don't know, your wife also is a pastor, Sarah, and your father-in-law, who is super famous, T.D. Jakes. And I was under the assumption that you kind of became a pastor through him.

Like that, you met Sarah, and they kind of brought you into the business. And you said, no, no, no, no. Actually, like, that's absolutely not what happened. And so I want to really start by your backstory, like how you started, then how you kind of became like this family affair unit. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning. Great story. Okay.

Go ahead. You're on. So my background is business and technology. So before the faith world, before the spiritual world, I used to build data centers for Fortune 500 companies. And so that was me. I was very successful. from that I started my own company that was a complimentary service to the corporation that I was working for

that company took off and made me more money than the corporation that I was working for and so things were fantastic and great externally but internally I was a mess in all honesty I've always been a good person but I was pretty full of myself and I just wasn't I was puffed up and proud And so I had a spiritual awakening. I was 26 years old. I had a spiritual awakening. And ultimately, for me, it was... What was this? Why? What was the kind of the catalyst? The catalyst. Yeah. So I was married and my marriage was falling apart. And we got separated and we were splitting up. And I said, all right, you know, my family was my stability. I was still crazy and wild and doing stuff that, you know, a married man shouldn't

do, to be honest with you. I was young in my 20s. No excuse, but it's just, it is what it is. And so if my family structure and my stability was going to be disrupted, my conscience said, hey, you better try to get close to God. You better really try to get yourself together spiritually because, you know, karma, you know, is a bunch of a bitch. Can you swear? Are you allowed to? I'm a grown man. I'm like, grown. Amen. So you could swear, you want. For sure. Okay. You see, I would see, I would think that you wouldn't be able to. No, no. I was a person before I was a pastor. Yes, that's true. And I will always be a person. And to be honest with you, my audience are a bunch of cussars. Really? Okay. Yes, yes.

Who is your audience? Like, who are the? Yeah, I mean, it's diverse, but, but a lot of young people, a lot of millennials, my average follower, if you would, is between 25 and 49, 70% female. 30% male. They're young professionals. Locally, many of them are in entertainment. They're in the business. And I think for the most part, they're people who maybe wouldn't subscribe

to traditional faith, a traditional expression of faith. They're influencers, their culture shakers, and they just want something that's real. They don't mind faith as long as faith is big enough to fit their lives. Right. And so I hope I answer.

that question. No, no, because that's what I was saying earlier. I should say also, Tori wrote a book called Balance. This is your third book. We were going to talk all about it after. And what I was found to be really nice and delightful, I guess, while I was reading it was that it is very mainstream. It's for people. You don't have to be super religious or very Christian or very this or very that. There's something your teachings and what you do is very much can resonate with lots of different people. But anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. So continue. So you're having this life crisis, basically.

And so I started really seeking God. And the only interpretation of God I had was my mom's church. And so, but the only thing is my mom's church was very small. And I don't mean small in number, although that would. probably be accurate. They were small in their perspectives. And so I couldn't go there, but I said, all right, and it was a Christian church. Let me try at this other church that I felt like was, it was more young. The guy was older, but he was drawing young people. And I started sitting in that church, and it was like every message he was talking to me. You know, it was like,

wow, I don't know if you've ever had that happen where you're somewhere and somebody's speaking. And what they're saying is resonating deep within. And for me, the message was clear. This was over about a seven-month period. You need to really, you know, give your life to God. You need to really prioritize your spirituality. And I did that. I didn't think that it was going to be anything more than me just practicing my spirituality. But when I started talking to people about my spirituality, it was having an effect on them. And so I didn't really choose ministry. ministry was kind of like the organic overflow of what was happening in my life personally. And then I did have a moment where I felt like this divine calling.

I mean, that's a long story, but ultimately, through a series of dreams, the message was clear. You have to love people the way that you love your firstborn child, and you have a gift to communicate to people in a way that unlocks the gift that they have that they just don't know it. So again, that was a whole ordeal. That would be a whole other podcast to tell you how that unfolded. But you were having dreams, though, you were saying, like, I know you don't want to go, like, go that deep into the weeds, although I now I'm super interested. Okay, we could do it. But so you were, that's kind of what, that was that kind of the precipice. You were having these dreams about that.

And then that said, okay, I'm going to pivot to becoming, putting myself in the ministry. Is that basically? Yeah, I was having these dreams. What were you seeing in the dream? Oh, God. I'll tell you this one dream. So I'm in the dream. It's me and my daughter.

And, well, first, prior to that scene, in the dream, I'm taken up. I ascend at a high rate of speed. And then I come to a halting stop. It's just a stop. But prior to stopping, I burst through this cosmic, clear film. And then when I got there, it was like I knew everything. There was nothing I did not know. It was strange.

I had just total knowledge. And then cut to me and my daughter, my firstborn child, her name is Lauren. And in the dream, she had a gift. She could fly. But she didn't know that she had this gift. And so in this dimension, there was a whole bunch of hordes of evil people or beings, whatever they were, creatures. And they were coming to get us. And my response to it was to tell Lauren, I said, baby, fly, baby, fly.

And she's like, Dad, I can't fly. I'm like, yes, you can. And I believed in her wings. And I'm like, baby, you can fly. She's like, no. I said, just put out your wings and fly. And she is lifted up. And we both are lifted up.

And we're saved from this hoard. And so that happened a few times. And so, and I woke up and I'm sweating and I'm crying. I feel deeply moved by this dream. And when I really sought like the interpretation of the dream, it was clear. First of all, you have to love every human being the same way. you love your first born child. Two, you can't fly. You don't have wings. Your gift is to speak to, your gift is to see the wings that other people have and to communicate. You can compel their wings

and they will fly and as they are lifted up, you will be lifted up. And it was so very, very profound dream. And it's been that way. When I see people, I mean, first of all, loving on that level is not easy, but I practice it. I practice. I don't care if you're homeless on the street. You know, obviously evil people are kind of hard to love, and I'm still a work in progress on that. But just because you're struggling, you've had misfortune in your life or you've done, you know, you just haven't been the best person. I'm very compassionate, and that's a gift. But I've seen that I've seen, when I see people, I just see their wings. And so, you know, from the books that I write to the messages that I share, it's all about,

me speaking to what's in you and I just know I just know it's in there and if and if you'll listen and if we spend time together if you'll listen there's going to be something in what I say that unlocks your wings and as you're lifted I'm lifted because I've got to I've got to do what I do that's the calling so before before this dream and before you were 26 and on this this never like this was never even occurred to you to be involved in it. anything like this. Absolutely not. I'll be honest with you, Jennifer.

If you would have come to me 25 years ago and say, hey, Toray, you know, I just discern that you're going to be a pastor, you're going to be a minister. I would have laughed uncontrollably, asked you what you were smoking and where I might be able to get to. Exactly, right? It was like that. No, I never saw it. Ironically enough, I used to want to be a child psychologist when I was very young.

Oh, okay. And so, but I went into business. And so it's a strange journey the way that life takes you. But you said a couple of things that was interesting, like that to be doing this, you have to love everybody else like you love your first four. You have to. Who says all these? Is this what you say?

Or did that, is that what happened in the dream? Or does someone tell you that? No, this is my calling. I don't think that that's a universal approach to calling, but in the dream when I. That's what they were, that's what about the feeling. Oh, yeah, it was good because I'm like, what's the significance when I'm really questioning, you know, God, you know, my interpretation of God. What is, what's the significance of, you know, I get my gift to communicate, you know, to see the gift. I get the person has the gift and they can fly.

And I said, but what, why did you use my first born child, my daughter? I mean, I just, you know, she just got, I just married her, you know, right. She used her away. She used away. But why did you use her? And he was like, think about it. Why do you think I would use her? And I thought about how I feel about it.

I love all my kids. At the time, I only had two. I had my two daughters. We have six combined now. But, and I love both. You know, my daughter, Taya, was the middle child. I love her immensely. But there's something about your firstborn.

The one that brings you into fatherhood, the one that changes your life. The moment that I knew she was coming, my life changed immediately. And so he's like, it's plain. Think about how you feel about her. You love her. You love her unconditionally. You believe in her. You want to protect her.

You want to see her prosper, thrive. If you love everybody I send you like that, you're going to be an incredible leader, incredible spiritual leader. Do you hear voices or is it just like, that's what I'm trying to get? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Like, what do you hear? Is it just a feeling? Is it like an intuition? Yeah. It could, it happens. several ways, but the best way for me to describe it is it's a knowing. I think that, you know, and again, this is my interpretation, but if our creator gave us ears to hear, a nose to smell, eyes to see, hands to have tactile experiences, then why would he not create us with an organ of perception,

some sort of ability to perceive things that are, that transcend the natural realm? And so, I call it my knower and you know some I call it an instinct or what have you but once you cultivate that we'll call an instinct once you sense something um for example here's what happens a lot of times a lot of times you'll feel something you'll send something and maybe it's I should act on something or not act on something and then you don't act on it or you do act on it and you realize wow man that was that was bigger than me I felt like this might happen but I didn't respond and this is the outcome I got And so there is this kind of like a trial and error you develop that organ of perception. And sooner or later, you just know to call it God, to call it divine, because once you begin to trust it and step out in it and employ it, it leads you to spaces and places and places that transcend coincidence.

You know, a couple of people I know who don't do what you do, but they think that they are intuitive and they are vibrating, I guess, at a different level. or the different dimension, or the different dimension. That's how they would describe it, but it's very hard to wrap your head around it. Because they say that we're in dimension three. Do you know this whole thing about dimension? That really is a whole other podcast. But I guess my point is, do you believe then, like, if you are, you felt that feeling, you're like, do you feel like you're vibrating at a different place?

And like you're more, and also you're doing it because you are acting on that gut intuition versus ignoring it. I think a lot of people ignore those feelings and they just push them down or they get distracted. Yeah. What made you not just get distraction, sorry, get distracted or push them down? What made you act on those? Because they worked. It worked, you know, when I didn't do it. And now that intuitiveness, I do kind of remember that from being a kid. Oh, you do. I do kind of remember. remember like, you know, I would sense, you know, hey, something's going on, something's getting ready to happen. You know, I grew up in a challenging neighborhood. I grew up in Watts. So, you know,

I was starting to East Oakland, grew up in Watts. And there would just be, you could just feel like something's going to happen. I'm like, hey, guys, I'm out of here. And then you'd hear the next morning there was a shooting or something like that took place. Or you're at a club. It's a club, of course. And, you know, you had a club. And you just feel like, man, something is weird here. You know, sunset, Roxbury. I used to do all that here and that. Right. Right. For. And so in hindsight, I remember that. But this is different. And I think that you begin to trust it because it never disappoints. It's it almost becomes unnatural to suppress it, to ignore it. And so it's the fruit of following it or the pain of not following it that really puts you in a place to trust it. Also, because like you were just saying, this was a good segue to your background. Like you were gripping Watts.

You said, weren't you involved in shooting also? Like, didn't you get shot by a drive-by shooting? I did. And so in that area, you know, I was blessed because my family. I had a great family. Thank God. That makes a big difference. Yeah, a great family.

And the street that I lived on was safe. There was like drugs on the next street, you know, shootings on another street. But like for some reason, now I believe it was God's protection, but for some reason on my street it was safe. But, you know, if you leave your street, and that's what I did, my mom always told me like, look, you can use my car of 16, but just don't have anybody in the car. And I'm like, Mom, what do you know?

I can have somebody in the car. Well, the guy that I had in the car was gang affiliated. And so we're out driving, and, you know, he gestures at some guy, and these guys are grown. I'm 16. And they just pull out a gun and start shooting. And so at 16 years old, yeah, I got shot and nearly died. And where did they shoot?

Where did they get you? They shot me kind of in the back, the shoulder area, and the bullet went forward and lodged in my esophagus. And so my esophagus is ruptured. I'm spitting up blood. I'm thinking, oh, I've seen this in the movies. I'm dying. Oh, my gosh. You know, and it was traumatizing.

And at 16, quite frankly, I prepared myself to die. And I remember being in the hospital. My mom, you know, came in the hospital. on, I just said, Mom, you know, I'm sorry, you know, you told me not to have anybody in the car, and I did, and here I am. And I said, but mom, don't worry, you know, if I die, you know, I'm going to heaven. I'm trying to encourage my mom. And she wouldn't have that. And, you know, she prayed for me. And the next thing you know, supernaturally, I was healed. The bullet moved, which it's a whole other story, but it lodged itself in a safe place. And, you know,

I was back on my feet. But it was a lesson. You know, maybe that lesson was, maybe that one was less about intuition, but more about listen to your mama, boy. I'm a little best boy. I was going to say next time you're going to listen to your mom. Exactly. And I do today, by the way. Okay, good.

That's good. I like to hear that. It's inside the mom to a little boy. So then how did you, so what was the next thing? So do you go to school for this? Like what have you practiced? Because, you know, like you have to write these terms. Like, how do you start this thing where now you have like almost a million people

following you on YouTube with this? And you have a congregation and what, like, what do you do? Like, what's the process then? Now you know you have a gift or you have a calling or a knowing. Then what? So it depends based on the denomination, what the requirements are. But for me, what happened was I discovered my gift. I discovered that, wow, you know, this is happening to me.

And as I'm sharing this with people, their lives are changing. Now, I'm a business person. I can't, you know, remember I was brought up in business. So I'm thinking, structure, how do I get the biggest, impact for my effort. This is great to sit around a coffee shop and talk to your friends and whatever, but like that's time and energy and effort and I just want to have a big impact. So the business guy in me said, you got to create a space.

You know, now I didn't even know it was a church. I didn't come up really around the church. My mom, you know, I was around Easter and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I didn't know the business of church. I didn't know the structure church. I didn't care about any of that. I'm like, listen, I've got this gift. I've got this attraction.

and people are attracted to me and their lives are changing. So I went out and I ran out a hotel room in Culver City, you know, and put my money, own money in. I didn't know that you can be a nonprofit and the people consulate. I didn't care.

I wanted to reach people. So I took my money. I started in this hotel room. And I just, you know, I created flyers. You ought to see this first fly. It was so pathetic. I was in business, not graphic design. It was atrocious.

I'm embarrassed now. I'll show you one. Okay, show it to me. I'd like to see it, yeah. But I just started. And on the first day, 80 people came. To the hotel room. And what did you do?

Just did a speech? I stood up, gave a speech, you know, asked who wanted to join this movement. And, you know, and... What was it called? It was called Saints. It was a corny name. I changed it. But it was called like Saints United.

And ultimately what that meant to me was, you know, Saints is kind of a church term. You know, saints and which is... Anyway, I'm sure people love that. I don't want to be dishonorable. But United was, my thing was all about unity. I saw, you know, I was born in Oakland. Oakland is a very diverse city. I grew up in L.A.

L.A. is a very diverse city. But I did notice in the church space, it wasn't really diverse. You know, you had black churches, you had white churches. You didn't really have. You have it now, but I didn't see a lot of that. So I wanted diversity, not just in ethnicity, but in, you know, in socioeconomic posture. I wanted people with diverse thought. I just felt like God's kingdom is this big, beautiful, diverse kingdom.

Or else I couldn't serve a God who wasn't diverse. Everything had to be justice. Right. That would be very short-lived for me. So that's why, that's where it was, you know, as a Saints, United Ministries. People, do charge people to come to the hotel room? No. It was just free for everybody.

Free for everyone except me. Exactly, except you, right? Who paid for the hotel room? And then how long do you speak? How long do you speak for? So that was, did you have a speech? Yeah, the speech was probably about half an hour,

at 40 minutes. I had someone sing a song, you know, and then, you know, who wants to join? Who wants to be a part of this? And a few people join. One of my best friend for now 30 plus years, he was like the first person, you know, Kenny is my friend, he's, you know, biracial,

he's black and Mexican. And he was like, you know, I'll go with it. He's been with me until this day. Really? Oh, wow. So that's, it started like that. And I met an hotel room. and then for a long time, honestly, it didn't grow.

You know, it stayed, you know, small for two years. And then I felt, you talk about intuition, I felt like I was supposed to move it. It was in Culver City to North Hollywood. Didn't know why. Why do I go to North Hollywood? And most of the people, the whopping, you know, a few dozen people who were coming all lived, you know,

south of the 10 freeway. And I said, hey, guys, you know, I feel divinely inspired to uproot here and plant in North Hollywood. And that didn't go over very well, you know, because the mentality valley, that's just, it's like you're in another state. Right. So I did it. And when I planted that church in North Hollywood, it exploded.

Really? Just by changing location, where you are is so important. And it exploded and took off and became what it is today. Well, so how did you get? So I went from having 80 or 25 or whatever people. What was it? How did you put the flyers to? They just started to come more.

This was interesting because your, my background was business, you know, and marketing. So I created this nice flyer. I did all the work. I did, you know, data, you know, data on the community. I was doing data back before people were thinking about data. This is 2004. You know, and who's here?

What's their age? What do they like? And based on that, I put together this awesome flyer into this major mass thing. and nobody showed up. I don't think one person from that outreach effort showed up. And I felt like, how did I fail in this? And I really felt God say, this is not going to happen by human effort. This is not going to happen because you're so smart

and you've got this background in business and market. That's all cute. But I need you to know that what I'm going to do, I'm going to do. And so I stopped doing that and people just started walking in off the street. and just you know i just set up shop did my thing and people started coming so you stopped all the marketing you stopped all the flyers and they just started to walk like walking the door they literally started walking the door and here's a funny story so so even though i was different i was fresh and i was you know i was i was had a different approach to faith than what congress should

look like it was very it was not i thought it wasn't conservative you know um now i realize it actually was more conservative than i thought it was uh but conservative for me would be, you know, you're in there with your shirt and your tie or whatever. I didn't have a shirt in the tie, but I did have my dockers and my braided belt and my lovers and a blazer. And so this young guy comes in there and this guy's got on jeans and he's got on a t-shirt this is 2004. He's got Chuck Taylor's on, jeans and a t-shirt. And he comes in and he sits in the back. And I'm like, this is a peculiar sight in a house of worship.

Yeah, right, right. This guy's got on jeans. So he leaves out and he comes back and he brings about four people. with them. And guess what? They're all in jeans, t-shirts, chucks, you know, male and female. And I'm like, this is strange. So after service, he walks up to me and he's like, and he talks real fast. This guy's name is Brian Kennedy. If you Google him, he's a major music producer, Rihanna, Chris Brown. What's his name? Brian Kennedy. I'll look it up after. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I mean, anyway. So, so, but he wasn't at the time. And he comes in and he comes up to

me after his head, he talks real fast. He slowed it down now. But, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's He said, Pastor, I was a great master, I really touched me. You know, and I, you know, I play keyboards. And, you know, if you ever need somebody in music, you know, and I'm just looking like, okay, so, you know, when someone's talking fast, you start talking fast with him, you're not in my head with him. And so he leaves. Then he comes back with a row full of young people, and they're all young, they're talented,

they're beautiful, they're gifted. And I'm like, okay, something is happening here. And then that's kind of when the pivot changed, because as I got to know them, many of them were talented gifted and beautiful but they were in bad situations and even professionally Brian was

and I want to say this carefully because he was working for a producer who they were music preview they were very hot at the time I mean if I named some of the songs that they did that you would know them but the deal was the deal that they were putting before him was pretty oppressive

he was better than that deal And so he, I took him the rascals chicken and waffles. Let me know if I'm going too long. Just like kick me or something like that. No, I think this is interesting. Okay. So I take him. I like these like backstories because it makes people, I think it kind of like paints

the proper picture like versus the little snippets and people don't understand. This is true. Yeah. So I take my rascos chicken and waffles and I'm like, let me see the deal. And show me a deal and I said, Brian, it's it's not, it's not worth you, you know. And I told him my reasoning why and he had to make a decision. For some, it looked like the deal of a lifetime. You get to work with these producers.

They're going to let you produce. You know, they've got all these hits. I'm like, Brian, you can do something on your own and avoid. And this is before the 360 deals, all this got stuff that the labels are doing. Now, this is before that. And so he took my advice. He got out of that situation. And then Rihanna Disturbia, he produced that.

You know, Chris Brown forever, he produced that. His career takes off. He was writing for Faith Hill. um the rascal flats i mean natasha bedding i mean just just name it he's wow and he's just blowing up and um and there so there were a lot of stories like that and because these people had influenced they were bringing people right to the church the church took off and the fastest growing demographic at that time was young hollywood but the reason why i bring it up particularly as it relates to them being in bad situations so i'm thinking about this other girl named natasha and natasha is gorgeous i mean just

a beautiful girl, but her self-esteem was like in the tank. And I'm like, Natasha, you're, you're gorgeous, you're bright, you know. And so I got like, I got a little pissed at the industry, to be honest with you. Because I'm like, here are the young people that are moving from all around the world to come here because they're talented. And they were just abusers in the space, you know, and they were oppressing them and, you know, and making them feel less than who they are. And so my message began to be shaped by who was coming. Who was coming. And so God gave me language for Young Hollywood. And I started talking to them. And it would be their lifeblood. I talked about identity. I talked about, you know, value, worth, affirmation,

you know, purpose. And it just, it just exploded. And so that's kind of the, you know, that's really how it happened. What happens is Natasha? Natasha's still great. Yeah. Okay, what's you doing now? She's an actor. She's an actor. She's doing great. Is she very successful? Would I know who she is?

I wouldn't call her very successful, but you know what? She's successfully emotionally. Okay, good. But yeah, yeah, yeah, as a human being. Yeah. And she is doing, I mean, she's doing well, but there are people in our church that are much more public than her. You know, a lot of people, you know, I did, there was a show. We sold a television show to ABC in 2019 based on my life.

It was a sitcom, the studio, ABC Studio, bought it. A sitcom? That's hilarious. I love it. A sitcom based on me and Sarah. But the guy who brought the idea to me, his name is Leslie Odom Jr. He's, you know, Emmy Grammy, no, Tony, Emmy. And he's got some stuff.

I can't remember what. I think he's one of the guys on your book, right? Yeah, Tony and Grammy Award winning actor and singer. He is. I had no idea he was sitting in my church. You know, he was there before, you know, anything, you know, and now he's, you know, doing movies and traveling. He was in, God, why is the Broadway? Hamilton, yeah.

He did that, you know, he did Hamilton. He went all over the war. He's a musician. He just hosted. He did Hamilton as, what, an actor or? Amazing in Hamilton. Yeah. Oh, really?

Yeah, he's, but I had no idea. He's sitting in my church the whole time while he's a quote unquote nobody and being affirmed and, you know, and who he is. And so, you know, I'm not taking credit for his career. No, no, of course not, but you're saying. And so he comes to me, and he's the one to open the door to do this show that, you know, we did successfully sell the pilot to ABC. And it was a put pilot, so, you know, the network spent, I can't tell you how much, but a lot of money to do this pilot.

And we were literally, our bags were packed in April of 2019 to go to the upfronts to sell this show. Yeah. At the very last minute, although the studio bought it and produced at Netflix. work said we're not taking it to series. Why? I don't know. We were all devastated. It was me.

Leslie, Kerry Washington was an executive producer on it. She was attached to it, too? She's got a deal at the studio. At ABC, I know. And yeah, she was attached to it at the very last minute. Network said, no, we're not going to do it. It was, I mean, if you Google it now, all the trades were like, this is going. This is happening.

This is a show to look for and all this sort of stuff. But it was all God's design. One, COVID was not knocking on the door. None of us knew it. Right. So God only knows if we would have got stuck in development hell or whatever. It just, you just never know everything for a reason. But was it already kind of canceled before it was started before COVID started in 2019?

Correct. So even before it was already like it was already. You have no idea why they decided? They thought, I were spending that kind of money and having her attached. They didn't think that it. test it well. I have, you know, I don't, testing is tricky because you got to know your audience to test. You can't just put a show out there. You know, it's almost like my church is very unique. My church may not do well, honestly, in the Bible Belt, you know, because it's just, I'm just

different. I'm built differently. My language is different. So if you're going into the Bible Belt, and I'm not saying that's what they did. Maybe that's what they did, though. Yeah, testing is like, it's, no, it's, you got to, anyway, listen. Why don't you take it, not like the career strategy advice for me right now, but I should give it to you up, but why don't you take it somewhere else? Like Amazon, Netflix, do it yourself, pay for it yourself, and then sell it. We talked about it. And we're always open to it. I think some of the networks that we were involved with, there was a little bit of, you know, executives go from company to company. And so sometimes when, so the person who bought our show at ABC by the time the show was, it was time for network to make the decision. She was gone. She was over to know. other companies. So sometimes that could have killed a deal, to be honest with you. They leave and everything's nice and nice on paper, but, you know, I didn't buy that show. I'm not as invested in it. Well, that happens all the time, actually. But where did she go? Can she take the show with her there? If they don't want to do it? Well, ABC owned, they own the rights. But can they, can you get

released from those rights and then she can buy it? I'm sure. I don't know where she is now. she might still be where she went, but I'm not sure. But, and there are things, but, you know, another thing, honestly, is the show started to become less about what we did originally.

So, you know, when network kits involved, they have ultimate creative control. And so it kind of, they kind of soften some of the edges and, you know, but here's the thing, and I talk about it in balance. Like, I needed that loss. Because I only knew Jen, I only, can I call you Jen?

Is Gene okay? Okay. I only knew how to win. I had, you know, the church did amazing, you know, two book deals, you know, television show. I had done some other work, some smaller things. Did you get the two book deals because of your popularity with the church? I think so. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. And this, by the other books, though, did you know TV and Sarah yet? This was not even yet. This is all before all of this. All of this is before. Okay. This is what I find. I didn't know of this.

Okay, go on. So I only knew how to win. You know, I'm being interviewed, going to places. I'm talking to people. The root named me the top 100 influencers in the space. I mean, it was happening. Things were going really good. So that was going on.

I knew how to win, but I didn't know how to lose. And I realized that sometimes for the sake of development, is better to lose than to win. because during that time before, you know, so there was a bit, there was a transaction, a financial transaction that I was really excited about in acquisition. And that deal fell apart. I found out that, you know, people say it's too good to be true. In this case, it was.

And I lost a lot of money, earnest upfront money and then, you know, to, quite frankly, my legal fees to make them go away and cry uncle. So I was out of a lot of money. The opportunity was gone out of a lot of money. this deal, you know, which is, again, my bags are packed. I'm going to New York, baby. We're getting rid this up front. We're saying, you know, literally the week we were leaving,

Network says no. The community in Denver that, you know, I took over. Now that was my father-in-law's church, and that was 2018. I took that over because the former leader had some missteps and they were out of a leader, so I stepped in trying to be a good son-in-law. Boy, how have you been married to Sarah for? It'll be eight years this year. Eight years.

Yeah. But the show was in 2019. Show was in 2019. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you only lost that show like a year, two years ago. Oh, yeah.

Oh, one was fresh. Yes. But I needed to, I needed. So the Denver organization, not going the way I planned. You know, the acquisition falling apart cost me a lot of money and the deal goes away. The show that I just knew was it, you know, goes away. That was a lot of loss in one period of time. And I started struggling like, man, do I still have it?

You know, am I still that guy? You know, and, but I needed to, I needed to know that there's a difference between being, there's a difference between losing and being a loser. And it taught me that. And I just, I just think that there's more value, honestly, sometimes in losing than winning. And I know that that's not a sexy thing to say. But it's true. Like I, to get up again, to trust again, to believe again, you know, I think. that you should never waste a perfectly good failure. You know, people look at failure and

they're like, man, I'll never try again. You know, I'm going to go a different route. I'm never going to take a risk again. And that's a waste of a failure. I think if you do an autopsy on failure and you get in there and you start moving the spleens around and different things, you'll see things. There's a treasure there that will set you up for the next thing that you're trying to do. So I needed that loss, to be honest with you. And I've won in other ways since then. and I'm going to win again. And the main thing is I'm never going to stop taking risk because, you know, when you start talking about scaling, I know this is kind of a business podcast as well.

And scaling, obviously, we all want to scale. You can never scale if you don't stretch. If you don't put yourself out there. Absolutely true. So anyway, it was tough, but I'm glad it happened, actually. It's hard that it's hard that it happened. And you could say now, I'm glad it happened because you got this and that. I'm all about finding sustainable ways to optimize performance.

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What I'd like to ask you more about is you're talking about resilience and falling and then getting back up again. So when this happens to people, do you have like, do you kind of give people who like follow you? What would you say the first couple steps are for doing that? for kind of getting yourself back up and to not being, not quitting. Because actually what you said, I say a lot is like you can, being a loser and losing are very, very different. What actually makes you a winner is getting right back up again and keep on, you know, moving forward. So what would you say?

How would you tell people in your congregation that they can do that and get out of their own way to succeed? First, the first thing I do was give them permission to say, ouch. Like, you know, I'm not that God. It says, man, up dog. You know, that's not me at all. It hurt. You know, I was, man, I was battling, like, some dark moments. Like, hey, have I lost my thing? Is my season pass? You know, it was a tough time. And I had to be honest with myself that I had been bruised. Because if you don't do that, you're going to walk around bruised. You're going to walk around perhaps even bitter. You're going to walk around. You're going to walk around. You're going to walk around. You're going to walk around. You're going to walk around. You're going to walk around. You're with no faith, you know, you just kind of, if you don't acknowledge the fact that it hurt, there's no possibility to get that wound healed and you're going to be a victim forever until you say, ouch. So the first thing that I would do is say, hey, acknowledge the fact that it hurt, you're disappointed, you're mad at life, you're mad at God, you're mad at whoever's on the other side of it, just get it out. It's okay to not be okay. That'd be the first step. Then assess it. You know, okay, so is there a lesson in here?

I think with every loss there's a lesson. So what am I supposed to learn? Like, and really, you know, and you hear that all time, you know, but no, really do it. Like there's something, I know it hurt, and maybe it hurts to look at it. So that's why you got to grieve it for a minute. That's fine.

Grieving is fine. It's part of the process. But then really get in there with an open mind, get ego out of the way, you know, stop pointing fingers, don't blame anybody. What can I learn? from this mistake. I study it, do an autopsy on that, that loss, that failure, whatever. Look at it. And you're going to find something in it. There's an insight there. There's something in that thing.

See, it's not all did. You know, there's something alive in there. So when you did, when that show kind of took a nose dive and the Denver thing kind of happened and you lost money, what when you didn't think, you didn't know what was going to be the next opportunity, what has happened to you since then that's been a really good opportunity that you never even saw happen that came from those fail like if those things happened

you wouldn't have been able to do XYZ what was that first of all I was a shift in my mind a lot of times so here's the thing how many people that aren't fundamentally in the entertainment industry sell a television show to one of the major one of the biggest studios

it's Disney ABC first of all who does that so I was over here here crying and lick at my wounds about it not going to series. And we sold a show

to ABC. If I didn't do anything else in life, take the, you know, six billion people on the planet, how many of them

have sold a show about their life, mind you, to ABC Studios. Like, that can't be taken away from. Very few. Very few.

So I... With Carrie Washington attached. With Carrie Washington, freaking Carrie Washington. Right. You know, well, now we're

friends and family. You know what I mean? It's like, how does that even happen? So it's shifting my perspective. Teray, you look at this wrong. Yeah, it didn't go there, but dude, you played in the game, boy, you know, you didn't go to USC cinema. You don't, you don't know anything about that.

Well, you know, a little bit, but you don't, that's not your space. You don't sell shows. You're not a showrunner. What are you talking about? Right, right, right. So it shifted my perspective and it created a resilience in me. And now, I'm a beast. And I'm a beast not because I have all these accolades and I've got things that I'm proud of and I'll share that with you. But, but not because of that. I'm a beast because no matter what comes my way, I don't give a flip. I'm going to over- Flip. Come on, I'm going to overcome it. You know, I'm going to figure out, I'm going to find the treasure in that trial. You know, I'm going to be- the treasure. What have you found? Well, so one perspective. There's a powerful thing about

knowing that no matter whatever comes your way, you're going to survive it. That, first of all, that's gold in and of itself. Like this, this, I can't lose, you know, or even if I lose, I'm never a loser. So that was big. But then this book, like honestly, like this book balance that I wrote, that's a whole another subject. It's great, but the process, like I almost, I tell people this, I mean very, very vulnerable with you, I tell people this, I almost died right in this book.

And you're like, what do you mean? My mom heard me say that once, you know, like publicly. She called me, man, what do you mean? You're all my diet. My mom, chill out, hold on. But what I mean by it is that this book was supposed to come out in October of 2020. And, you know, it doesn't come out to, you know, when it comes out. We all know when it comes out.

Right. And it kept getting pushed back. I pushed it back several times. I got halfway through writing it. And I stopped and started over. I'm not sure if you, I think you've written a book or whatever. But like... I've written a few books, yeah.

So you know, like, halfway? You're like, praise God. I just finished my book. My new book is coming out in December. First of all, I find the process to be so hard. People don't understand. It's the most exhausting, stressful experience. It seems like very nice and la-di-da.

Terrible. Oh, it's the hardest thing. So I found it hard. I mean. And I do too. This was extra hard. This was like, so I get halfway through it. And then, you know, my agent reads it.

And she's like, Torre, this is not your best. And she was right. And she's major. I mean, Jan Miller, she does everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So she does. So you got to like, if Jan tells you that this is not.

Good enough. Good enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to. So I start over from scratch. Now, just imagine getting halfway through a book with the publisher deadline looming. And starting from scratch. And you're pushing it back.

So, but I did it. And, but during the process, man, I had some dark. moments where I felt like, man, you're not good enough. Again, that voice, I call it night, you know, where that voice comes and you're not good enough. You don't have it. What are you doing? You're a loser. You are, I mean, loud. And it's like, and I remember this moment, I write. I'm only laughing because it's like very, I totally understand me. I know what you're talking about. It's the worst. So I'm in my hotel room. I always take, you know, take, you know, several weeks away to write. I'm in my hotel room. And I have this onslaught.

of thoughts that you're a loser, you can't do this, look at you, you're an embarrassment, you're ashamed, you got this deal, and you can't deliver, and it was just, and, you know, I don't think it's uncommon to have to overcome negative thoughts, but this was different. This was like, I was being oppressed by these thoughts, and I'm by myself, and I'm in this hotel room, and I'm panicking, I can't sleep, it's going crazy, and there was a, moment that where I realized if I didn't fight back, whatever this onslaught was would have wiped me out. I mean, like if I would have given into that, I understand how people, you know, because you always say, you know, I never killed myself. Let me tell you something. That gave me just

a little bit of a taste of what sustained negative thinking will do if you don't fight back. Right. And I knew that if I didn't fight these. thoughts, my life was getting ready to change, not for the better, forever. And so something in me just said, hell no. You know, and it was just a fortitude. Like, it just, I just said, no. And, and out of that moment, man, my creativity opened up. That's how the character, Knight, even appears in the book, because I had to fight off Knight to write this thing. And so, so all of that, overcoming, you know, these setbacks, these losses develop something in me that I think is going to help a lot of people. And I'm very proud of it. Yeah. I mean, you, okay, let's talk with your book

for a second. We might as well. It's been like five hours. But like you know, because it's called balance. So what, how would you define, what's your definition of balance? Because you've had to figure it out through this whole process, right? I've had to. And like you said, the process of even writing the book has been, was very hard because you're doing a lot of other things also top of it. It's exhausting. So in all of this, how do you define balance? So I used to define balance the way everybody else does. How do I, I've got all these responsibilities, how do I effectively manage these responsibilities and divide myself up so that I can successfully be successful in all these things I'm responsible for? I used to feel that way. I realize that's not what balance is.

First of all, it's impossible. I can't go, I can't give Sarah 10% of me and my kids, another 10% in my business another percent, the church and investors. I can't do that. So for me, balance is not dividing yourself up in response to things that you're responsible for. It's becoming all of yourself, becoming your whole self, and then giving your best self to things in sequence. And so I think that balance is really about wholeness. I don't think it's a discipline. We've left books about work-life balance. They're effective, but that's not where it's at because, listen, I've, I tried it. I tried it, Jen.

I tried, okay, on Friday, I'm going to take my son Isaiah out. You know, Thursday's going to be date night. I'm going to spend time with my little girl on this day. And you know what I did because I wasn't balanced? I gave them a crappy version of me. So I did spend the time, you know, I could check off the time. But what did I give them? I didn't give them my best.

I gave them a formula. It's not a formula. It balances about being balanced. It's a journey to becoming your best self through disciplines and steps that I talk about so that you can do all things well. You can't do all things well. You just can't do all things well at the same time.

I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. It's not about like, well, okay, I'm going to spend 50% of my time at work and the other 50% I'm going to do at home. I've never heard anyone describe it like that, but I think that is such a much more of actually, a more realistic way of looking at it.

Because I don't think anyone truthfully, Like you can't balance things like a, like a seesaw. You know, 20% goes to my kids. 10% goes to my husband. So that's a really good, that's a very good explanation. And you talk about this in the book. How do you give us some indications of when someone is out of balance? Oh, yeah.

There's a few. There's several. That can be a ton. For me, stagnation is a sign that I'm in balance. I think that when we are balanced, when we're a lot of, when we are working the disciplines and we're in our flow, there's no such thing as stagnation. You know, you're innovative, you're creative, you know, we're creative beings.

We're supposed to always have something to give. Stagnation is a sign. I think that weariness is a sign, and that's a difference between being tired and weary. I describe weariness has the gradual gravitational pull down to the tarmac of disaster. You know, like it just knows. the disaster is on this way if you respond to your weariness. Jealousy and envy, to be honest with you, you know, when you're balanced, you have such an affirmation and personal affirmation and you're so connected with victory and winning

that anytime you see success, you feel connected to her. You're not jealous of it. You see somebody winning. You're like, yes, what we do, baby. You give a high five. And so jealousy and envy is part of it. Declining thought life. You know, if all of us, sudden, you, you always go to the lowest possible interpretation of a comment, of a conversation, of someone's action. You don't know why they did that, you know, but, well, what did you mean when you said that? You know, your thought life declines. So there's several, and, um, and you just have to perceive them and not tolerate them. Listen, when I'm off, I got to go get balanced because I'm not going to be a great husband, not going to be a great parent, not going to be a great leader.

You know, I'm not going to be a strategic business person. And so I just, I won't tolerate it. So I'm looking for signs that show me you're out of balance. You need to do something about it. So how do people get balanced? Like what's the first steps? Like, let's say I say, okay, I'm static. You could be stagnating at your career. You could be stagnated because you're just not like feeling productive. Yeah. The weariness is an interesting one because it's like you feel yourself, you can, it's kind of like what you're, I think that you're saying. It's like you feel yourself a little bit, right? Like you're not like, you're not like yourself. Yes. Um, so give us some, how do you become, how do you start the process of being balanced? Love it. The first step is no

step at all, actually. The first step is to stop. That's why people, it's the funniest thing in the world. People are like, yeah, I just try to get balanced in my life, but what are doing? They're moving. You know, I need balance, but, you know, but like, you tell them you need balance while you've got a phone in your hand, you know, you're tweeting over here, you're texting, you're driving to your next meeting. Dude, of course you don't have balance. So the first step is to stop. And I've learned that, first of all, it takes, people think it takes more faith to start than stop. I disagree. I think it takes more faith to actually stop, to come to a halt than it does to go forward. You know, I, you know, I think, you know, there's this biblical concept called

Sabbath, you know, that is pretty, I think it's pretty universal. Jewish. Jewish. Jewish. No, exactly. Sabbath. You're saying it like, I don't know. Right, right. I'm teaching you right here. I'm teaching you. Exactly. I was in the cover of the Jewish Journal. Were you? Yes, I was.

No way. Yes. I was in the Jewish Journal years ago. Oh, you were? Yeah, I used to be on the board. I had one on the bottom of the system. Nope, not drawer right there. Tell me, I want to know.

Yeah, I used to be on the board of an organization called the American Friends of Magin de Vidal. It's the ambulance service in Israel. Really? Yeah. So I sat on the board for that, the L.A. chapter. and so, you know, so I'm very, I love Israel. I love Jewish people. I love everybody.

Well, I like to hear that because that's really. So this was like a couple months ago. Oh, come on. Can I tell you something? What's amazing? For those of, okay, I'm only showing this to him because people laugh and mock, but I will say that got so much more traction than Forbes than all these other big biggies because I don't know.

I think that like there is something to be. say about like being on the cover of like the cover that's like a big deal major the jewish journal you kidding me right yeah that's that's heavy that's right if jerry sign it's good enough for jerry right right right right so thank you davis wisa who's the editor in chief i love it yeah yeah but it's like so the first step is to stop and i love that that word sabbath because that that hebrew word doesn't mean to rest even though rest is true it means to stop it literally means to cease you know and no one wants to do that No one, it's almost like our world is so noisy right now. Noisy is normal.

Well, it's all about distraction, right? If you stop and you don't have a distraction, then you really have to start focusing on what's the noise, right? Which is a lot of times people do not want to have that type of like stillness and quiet. Yes. Because then they have to look inward and be like, oh my God, this isn't good and this isn't good and that's wrong and whatever. Yep. So if you keep yourself busy or distracted, then it's much easier in like short-term gratification.

Oh, yeah. Right? I know all about that. I went through a divorce in 2012, and it was my first time being alone, you know, in 17 years. Were you married for 17? I was married for 17. I got married pretty young. I was married for 17 years.

She's a wonderful person, just not for me. Right, right, right. I get it. And so I was single now, right? And I don't know anything about that. I'm single. I'm a pastor. You know, I'm like...

Are you allowed to date? I guess technically you are, right? You were, obviously, if I can hear you again. Like we started, I'm a grown. Lord ass man, I know. But I know. It's priest. I can't go.

I got it. Okay, okay. But a reverend can go out of with people? Yeah, I think so. I think it's, I mean, again, it depends on your denomination or all that kind of stuff. It's various. But what I needed to do after 17 years of marriage is chill. Like, Toray, chill out.

You don't even know what date? What are you doing? Do you're 40 years? What are you talking about? You're 30, 30 years old. Right. Like, what are you trying to do here? And so, you know, I told myself that I was going to like, you know, not date or whatever.

And somebody came along and we started starting a date. How did you guys meet then? On Tinder? Are you guys allowed to be on Tinder? That's hilarious. I'm sure there's some passes on Tinder. Were you on Tinder? I wasn't on Tinder.

No. Match. No, no, no. I didn't know. Related ones. Because, well, then I would have had to acknowledge that I was actually looking. Christian Ming- that, right? Christian.

Now, I would even, let me tell you. I would not do that. Because I love Christians, but Christensenism, okay? I think it was a fine. No, give me somebody. We wouldn't eat it. Right. No, I'm not doing the Christian.

But, um. I, um, so I started, I had, we had a professional relationship and she, well, how did you meet her? Was she, was she, was she a pastor then? No, no, not at all. She had fashion. She was in fitness. She was in fitness? She was in fitness?

Like, what was she doing in fitness? I didn't know her. What was she doing? I told your name, so you might know her, but, but I don't know. Oh, I was like with Sarah. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Oh, we're talking about when you need to be alone. Oh. Oh, we're not asking to be alone. So you're like having to be alone and then someone set you up with this girl? Well, she, we had a, we had a professional relationship. She's your trainer? Yes, you're so good. Okay. I'm like, I'm going to go.

Well, who is. Yeah, right. She was my trainer. Where at a gym or like at a private gym? She would come to come train me at my place. So, and then she just, she steps to me one day. Like she. And it was so funny.

Let me tell you was funny about it. Like she, she was such a Mac. And she's a great person. But she was such a Mac because, you know, we're having lunch one day. And it was just like, you know, we're just having lunch. You know, you're cool. I'm cool. You know, you're training me.

And then she, like, lunch is over and she's like, so, when are we going to stop playing this game? And I'm like, playing a game. Like, I'm not playing a game. Like, we're just, and she's like, come on, you know, you're interested in me. You know, and I'm like, okay, you know, because I was so, I was so vulnerable. And granted, she's great. gorgeous. Of course, you're not hiring a guy trainer. You're hiring a hot girl. Are you not?

Yeah. I wouldn't do that. Okay. There's go. Okay. There it is right there. But that wasn't what. She was really good at what she did. You know. I'm sure. Right. Great. This is amazing. Okay. So then you guys started to date then after she kind of confronted you? Yeah. And we started to date, which was so stupid. It just because. I think she's not your trainer anymore. Oh, she's not, we ended that. But I think the issue is I needed time to myself, but I was, I wasn't ready for alone. I wasn't ready for what I might find in the, in the silence. And so that, it didn't go well, you know, and finally I say, look, why are we pretending? This is not right. And I broke it off. And then. How long were you dating for? A few months. It wasn't, wasn't very, I guess a few months could be considered a long time, but a few months. Did you find a new trainer? I did find a new trainer. I did find a new trainer. I did. And I just, yeah, actually, no, I stopped training and I started just doing what she taught me. Oh. Yeah.

I didn't, yeah. If I safer that way. Yeah, I think so. I was too vulnerable. I was open. I'd never been, you know, by myself. Right, alone. College.

And I think what's funny is guys sometimes are blinded from the fact that people might want to have a relationship with it. I was so naive. Like, I was like, I thought that people were friends. I have one lady tell me, how real can we be on this podcast? Very real. I mean, how real. I had one lady tell me, and she was actually, this is bad. This is so bad.

Good. The bad or the better. Better than bad or whatever. She basically told me, hey, I can sleep with you. And it won't be anything. Like, I'll even come to your church to sit in the pews, and it won't be anything. And she was like, like, and she meant it. And I'm like, oh, it's real out here.

Oh, you didn't realize it? No, I didn't know. I was in a bubble. Oh, my God. First of all, can I tell you something? It's why the girls are worse than guys. I learned. I freaking learned.

It was like. Did you really not know this? I didn't know, no, because I've been married for 17 years and how many of those years? 12 of those years, I was, you know, a person of faith. So I was walking this really, you know, pretty straight path and I was faithful to my wife and that kind of stuff. So I didn't, I didn't really, I was shielded. I was shielded. So probably being married to her was probably a blessing in this.

because it shielded me. Well, but I would imagine if you're getting to be very popular in that space and you're on like a stage and you would have a lot of groupie like girls who would go there or guys also maybe who just had the hots for you.

Yeah, but I... It's not like you're like a dog. It's not like you're like a hundred, you know, obese, old man. Right. You know, like... Yeah, I think, I think I was distracted by my work and I had to be distracted by my work

because my marriage wasn't great. Yeah. You know, so I was really lost. some folks and working in there. And one thing I wasn't going to do is violate the integrity of why somebody's come in our church. So, you know, yeah, I could maybe feel the energy of some people there that are, you know, kind of checking, but I'm like, you can feel that way how you want to. I'm not going to.

You're not going to play into that. No, that's a whole other thing. I'm afraid of God about stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're, I get that for sure. Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentus 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega-3 combo for months now, and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance,

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how long did you stay kind of by yourself after that debacle with the trainer? A little over a year. Oh, wow. And you didn't date anybody for a year? No. After the trainer, there were a couple of other people that were short-lived. Again, still battling with this not wanting to be by myself, lonely, very short-lived. And then I got to a play.

So I'm like, you know what, man, if you know it's right, why are you interested? And I got to this place where I said, you know what, I'm not going to date anybody until someone shows up that I believe has the capacity, the potential to be my wife, you know, because I want to be married again, you know, marriage is great if you're with the right person. So I stopped and I stopped dating and I was by myself and my book was coming out. So I had a good distraction. And I get a call from one of my friends, his name is Derek, who works for T.D. Jakes. and he's like, hey, Tore, you know, I've got somebody in town that I want you to meet.

She's got a book coming out. And I just think you should meet her. It's Bishop Jake's daughter. Now, I love my father-in-law. I think he is brilliant. Like, he's brilliant. He's a blessed man and all that kind of stuff. But when I consider my father-in-law, when I consider my father-in-law, and I think about his daughter, all I can do is see him with a dress on.

Right. And I don't want to date. someone who looks like my father-in-law with a dress on. He's a big burly, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, and that's with all due respect. No, he's like, he's a big man. I understand what you're saying.

So I wasn't expecting for Sarah to walk to the door. We met at the peninsula in Beverly Hills for lunch. So I'm sitting down, or for breakfast. So I'm sitting down and she walks in. And I'm like, what? She's got on like jeans. She's got ripped jeans on. She's got boots, you know, up to her, you know.

And she's like, and she's just bouncing around and stuff like that. And I'm like, hi. Yeah, I'm so confused. Yeah, it was weird. And so we had a phenomenal conversation, a wonderful conversation about life. Our views were very similar about purpose and about what it means to be called now and what the world needs. She wasn't a minister at all. What was she doing?

She was an author. She was a blogger and an author. For what? On what topic? Her first book was called Lost and Founds. She was kind of telling her story, getting pregnant at 13 years old and having a baby at 14 while being in this high profile family. So she was inspirational, kind of a women's magnet or blogged it well. Was she well known in that already or not yet?

She was known, but not, well, like in my world, she wasn't known in all. No, no, no, but like was her blog very popular. Her blog was popular. So if she had a book deal, she must have had some popularity around her. Popularity, plus she's Bishop Jake's daughter. Right, I'm going to say. How long has he been around, by the way? Oh, God.

He's had that church in Dallas for 20 years. he's probably been popular for 25 years, like wildly popular for 20 years for sure. Right. So she comes from the, obviously, of being his daughter, then she's like, well known in that, in that space. Exactly. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Being there. She's young, but, but yes, to your point. Yeah. So she, how old is she at this point? She's 25. Okay. Yeah. And so we meet, you know, we have a great conversation. There was definitely chemistry, but not romantic chemistry. I wasn't looking at her like that because remember my mentality is I'm not touching anybody. unless they have a wife potential. And to be honest, she's younger than me. And so when I had, and I did have a little list, to be honest with you, about what I wanted

to look like. She wasn't in the age bracket, to be honest with you. So there were just things. How was she now? She's 30, she's 30, should be 34 in July. Yeah, 33. We got a 15-half year age difference. So she, so we have a great talk, great breakfast.

I told us, you know, I want you to come and speak at our church. I think my people would love you because you're not churchy. You know, you got on jeans. Like, you know, my people, you're young, you kind of get it. You know, your messaging is good. I want you to come and speak in my church on Mother's Day, unbeknownst to me that she didn't speak. She wasn't a speaker. She didn't, she had never, she had done some talks, but she had never done like a church message at all, ever.

I had no idea. And so here's a crazy thing about that. I didn't see her that way then. I saw her. I felt like I met her and I felt like I felt like I needed to protect her because I knew what it was like in the church world to be kind of, like me in that you're not super religious and and you're popular and you have this charisma and you draw people and sometimes the church world gets uptight you know and you're in Hollywood and they just assume that that you are whatever they think about us in Hollywood. It's just it gets weird and I felt like

man this girl she's got needs some protection and I didn't know like Bishop jakes I knew who he was but I didn't follow him to be honest with yeah because he's a he's brilliant and I was missing out by not following him, but his style is a little different from my. He's more, you know, big, yes, he's kind of, and it's dominating. Yes. And so I didn't, I knew who he was. I respect him. How can you not? He's in the faith world. He's massive. So with Sarah, I just, I didn't, I didn't, it was almost like my eyes were veiled from seeing her in that way. Yeah. And I did feel like you're probably going to need some mentorship because I didn't even think, who am I? You know, your dad's Bishop Jake's, but I knew that Bishop Jake's, but I knew that Bishop

He's in a different, it's a different type of thing that he does. He's more in the church world. And I saw Sarah as having more of a pop culture type of grace similar to mine. So you saw that in her? Oh, for sure. And she didn't see that. Mm-mm. No.

And so you're the one of brought her into this space. Absolutely. So fast forward, you know, we exchanged numbers. She tweeted out, she kind of flirted with me in a tweet. She tweeted out, met with Tore Roberts. He's brilliant. I'm like, careful. Don't use those words.

Yeah. Exactly. And then I went to her father's conference in Orlando, Florida. We kind of, we were texting each other. And then she approached me and said, I'm coming to L.A. in two weeks. Well, didn't she invite you to the conference? Because you weren't following. The Derek guy, the guy who. Oh, Derek invited you. Okay, okay. And so we get there. And so Sarah, we miraculously end up sitting next to each other on the last day of conference. This is, this is really crazy. And there was a closing prayer that Bishop Jackson. Don't do the closing prayer. Grab the hand that the person that's next to you. So I, you know, I just, I take her hand and it was crazy. I felt like this is going to sound weird, but we've been talking about intuition.

I felt like she was my wife. I felt, I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to articulate that now, but what I felt was a familiarity just at the touch. And I'm like, what is this? So the prayer is over. She turns to me and she says, Teret, I'm coming to L.A. in two weeks. and you are going to take me to dinner. And I'm like, okay.

Okay. And the rest was his, dinner was, we shut dinner down. But where'd you go for dinner? Where'd you take her? Remember the Capitol Grill used to be open right there at the Beverly Center? It's closed now. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

Which is, I'm hurt because that was my mom. I proposed there. First date was there. Really? Yeah. I used to like that place too. Yeah, it was great. So we went to the Capitol Grill and we talked all night.

We both had been divorced and our perspective on marriage, what marriage should be while we were in those marriages. So, you know, for the time being and the decisions, the way we thought, what we learned, it was like talking to myself. It was crazy. Really? Shut the Capitol Girl down. And we knew pretty quickly that we were each other's person. But as far as speaking stuff like that, Sarah wasn't doing it. You know, her coming to one, and then she started, then I started asking her to pray after the service. So she would do the prayer, and then she started preaching there. So literally, one became, Even though her father has this major megachurch, one became the platform that sprung her out into, you know, and she would tell you this. It's not just me.

No, no. That's amazing. I guess. Hold on. No, sorry. I thought I was going to sneak. Sorry. Yeah. Allergy. Sorry. So that was basically, so then when she first spoke, was she awkward? Was it good? Was it? I think it was good. She was nervous, but she always has been. a woman of substance. You know, I think that she has grown in skill, in comfortability, in communication. She's more knowledgeable. She's got more to pull from. And she's a beast.

If you ever listen to her, that woman, she's my favorite speaker. She's my favorite preacher of all times. I mean, even her dad is made 11. But she's got, she's like, this is going to sound funny. She's like a little bit of me and a little bit of her and a little bit of him and all of herself. And she is fierce. I love to hear her speech. No, she's very good.

I mean, when she was on the podcast, I told you a year ago, I listened to a bunch of her stuff and she's excellent. Yeah, she's amazing. Like, where does it come from? Like, how do you guys even put these things together over and over? And because you've got to do it every week, right? Every week. Someone asked me, it's funny, it's become so natural that I forgot that it's actually a phenomenon that you can come up with life-changing, literally, life-changing content every single week. I think for me, it comes from a couple of things.

One, things that I'm learning recently. I think that in order to be a good communicator and a good minister or life coach or whatever you want to call yourself, you're changing people's lives, you have to be growing spiritually yourself. And so, you know, there are disciplines that I work every day to keep me aligned, to keep me really connected to my spirituality. One, two, you gotta love people, you know. So when I'm like, even when I talk to people or before I get up on the stage to speak,

I'm turned around and I'm looking at the audience because I want to see them. I want to see you. I want to feel you. I want to, I want to look in your eyes. You know, I want to, I love you. I have to love you in order to be effective. So I need to pause and look at you. And a lot of times, it's weird.

I can, you know, it's kind of sound strange, but I can kind of feel people. I can feel what they're going through and what they need. Really? Yeah, it's really, really, that's why I can't write my, I have points, but I can't write my sermon out for word for word because I respond to who's in the room. And I respond to how they respond. And so if I say something that really resonates or maybe it's, it intrigues a person, but, you know, they need more, then I'll work three or four analogies until I feel like the room got it and I can move on. And you'll think about them on the fly. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 50, at least percent of my message. It's just extemporaneous. Like, it's like right there. You know, I'll have a theme of somewhere that I want us to go,

but it all depends on who's in the room. We used to do multiple services, and each service would be different, although the theme was the same because of whose energy is in the room. And you would do one sermon every Sunday. How many people would show up? So our theater is supposed to hold about 800 people,

but we learned how to put chairs down and get the lobby going. So it'll max out at about 1,200. And we were doing three, services a Sunday before COVID-19 hit. And so... Three on Sunday. Three on Sunday. Like eight o'clock, 10 o'clock? Yeah. Back then it was nine o'clock because it's L.A. ain't nobody coming at eight o'clock. Yeah. I was going to say by yourself, fricking. Exactly. Good morning, everyone. All four of you. But at 9 a.m. 11 a.m. 1 p.m. and then we would do a midweek service.

By the way, how much it's a membership? There's no membership. It's free. Yeah. Okay. So how do you guys make money as a church then? It's a nonprofit, you the nonprofit, yeah, through donations. So all donation-based? All donation-based. You guys can't put around like a bucket to people? We used to, before COVID-19, we used to. But, yeah, we passed a bucket around.

And, yeah, there's no, you know, we just trust that, hey, you see the value of this. Not just for your life and for what we're doing in the community, you know, practical stuff. Because, yeah, the spiritual stuff is majorly important. We totally get that. But people got practical needs. There's some people that you're never going to, well, I won't say, who knows. But you never may believe the way I believe, but you still need to eat. eat, you still need, you know, job support.

You still need all these other things. So, and people respond to that. People want to give to organizations that are making a difference. And so, do most people give when the bucket goes by? It's hard to tell. So I get, you know, I get a report. I can't see who's giving what. Right.

It's kind of, you know. You can't anyway. How do you know if it's going around? Well, you have to, you don't have to. You can give anonymously, but most people want the tax break. Oh, so does they come around with a piece of paper? says, here's, you can tell it, Evan. Yeah, you can do that.

Or now it's all automated. So you can text to give and you've got a profile set up. So you later text the number and the amount that you want to give and it goes to that. And so on our back end, we have, you know, computers that track who gives what. So at the end of the year, they get their giving statement and they can deduct those gifts from their tax returns. Oh, but you're saying, but okay, so, but in person, when the bucket goes by, there's no, there's no technology, is there. There are nothing. No. So if, and we, I don't even know, we're starting back, I don't even know if they're going to do buckets. We're probably still going to be digital. And people give stocks

and Bitcoin, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, but they're on digital, how do they do it, though? If you're watching, how do they, how do they? So it's, it's a text. So they start off with that. That's what the text. Okay. So you send them a text first? With a form. Okay. And so that captures their data, you know, their name and address so we can send out the mailing statement, email address. And so now every time they text, the system already knows. It's them. It's them. Right, right, right.

So it tallies up their giving. So interesting. Yeah, it's like, and all this, none of this stuff I knew about when I started, I just said, look, I want to help people, you know, here it is, go for it. And how much people normally give? What's like the going rate? Well, it depends on how much they make. So some people, and I think, I don't, I think in. In person first.

Let's go first and versus online. So there are principles, and I'm pretty sure. think this is the same in synagogues, but there's a principle called the tithe, which is, means a tenth. And so some people who really, really are followers and believe in the church and what we're doing give a tenth of their increase. Like I literally, 10% of everything I make, I give to our church, you know, and that's where I start. And then beyond that, I help all kind of other places. I just. So this is where it's different. So when you're at a synagogue, typically you have to pay a membership. Okay. Okay. And then all

so you give donations based on where you are, like, in terms of your, like, economic place in life. Okay. And there are people, it's like the 80, 20 world, you know, like, as in life, right? You have a very small percentage of people who give, like, the majority of it. Yeah. But, you know, because it was done how you guys do it with the bucket, and I'm always saying, because I remember when I was like, Joel Olson, the bucket was coming by, and I was like, what the hell is this bucket?

What's the bucket, right? Yeah, I thought that was only in movies. Right. And didn't realize it actually happens, and people were taking out money and throwing it in the bucket. Yeah. I didn't know if it was the same because if they're coming weekly, it's different if you just come once in a while. But also, they're coming weekly. You're giving cash or how much do you normally get in person?

Oh, it depends. From like a dollar to... Yeah, people give a dollar, you know, $20. It depends on where they are. Now, and our church is a pretty young church. And so young people, a lot of times have young money, you know. And so I think that we do well. and you know, stay afloat because there are a lot of young people who do so.

But then you're right, it is the 80-20 rule. There's some people that do very well. And some of them aren't even local. They'll be either overseas or in another state. And they, you know, they're multimillionaires. And so their tide is significant. Well, yeah. So what I think is doing digital is probably way better.

I mean, you're making more money digitally, I would imagine. The only problem with that is that... You're reaching more people. Yeah. The only problem with that is that people who are only connected digitally don't give as much because I don't want to suspect it but if the bucket

no bucket can come around and you can't see you yeah yeah so and I think a lot of people when they see the bucket they see other people doing it and they feel guilty if they don't it's like it's like peer pressure in a way because I didn't know and I'm like oh I guess people are beside me they're giving

I better give my money too you know like because I didn't you don't know you want to feel inclusive but I was always curious about that Because also, when people do donation, you tend to make more money because it's like the psychologically when people feel like, well, I'm not paying for a membership. I get it. It's interesting. Some of the people are, they feel more generous to be giving money because it's that way versus like a finite amount of money. So true.

And then from a business perspective, you know, you would almost want. to be able to quantify, if we've got a thousand members and they're giving a thousand dollars, you know, a month, then you've got a million dollar budget. So that obviously would feel more safe, but it doesn't work that way. We have zero commitment.

And so it's all, and you have to trust that people. You have to trust for sure. But you have a huge, I mean, congregation. You guys are probably raking it in. I mean, let's be honest. Not really, but I'll tell you when we did well. COVID helped us because one thing you're a nonprofit so literally you're not supposed to be profitable.

Isn't that interesting? I know. Most nonprofits though can make a lot of money though. Oh, for sure because people are generous and they support. But I'm not saying you're supposed to spend it all. Right. But if you're like a nonprofit and you're just growing and growing and growing and growing and there's no outgo, outflow into the community and into the world, that's a little tricky. So, but COVID helped us in that because we couldn't use the facility, our overhead dropped significantly.

Right. Our numbers, our donations were, they were pretty flat. I think we jumped. Actually, no, we jumped 7%. No, 7% last year. The first year we were pretty flat. But because the overhead was down, it was kind of awesome because we were able to do more. Right.

And went at a time when the world needed more. So instead of putting money into the building and all the things that go into managing the building, we were doing all kind of radical altruistic things, which I think brought the church even to a greater place of prominence. I'm just curious, how many people do what you do in this kind of unconventional way? Is there other people, do you have real competition in this way? That's funny. So I understand what you mean by competition.

It would be... You know what I mean. Yeah, I totally do. But I want to preface that with in that faith world, even though the faith world can be more competitive than corporate America. Yeah. And let's not even go there. But in that world, you're supposed to not be competing because everybody is a servant of God. But with that being said. That being said. So we're just, so that we're clear. Keeping it at 100. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there are, thank God, I think that there are leaders who are being more open, open, being more authentic,

being more relevant. I'm sorry, there's a guy that I'm thinking of. I think he had like a sermon or something in Beverly Hill. at a hotel. I think it was... Judah, Judah, Smith. Is that his name? Judah, yeah. Yeah, well, he was doing something that... I think it wasn't...

It was one of those hotels on worship. And then he was at the Saban. Judah, Judah. Is that his name? Yeah, Judah. He's a friend of my... Yeah, so he's a young guy, too, yeah? Yeah, Judah's about my age, maybe a couple years younger.

Oh, okay. Are you sure the same guy? I think... I thought this guy was, unless I'm just, like, so old now that even... I thought he... So he was, like, the kind of considered to be, like, the rock star young guy. Could be Judah. And he was bringing all these entertainment people.

And I was invited to go a few times. Yeah. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, Judah, Jason Kennedy was there. Yes. Yeah, that's Judah. Yes. Okay, how is he different than you?

First of all, I love Judah. I think Judah is an incredible human being. I love his broad perspective and bringing people together in the faith world. I think that I'm probably a little more raw than Judah. Oh, okay. I think, because he is, his father was a pastor. and they had a massive church in Seattle, Washington. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. Okay. And I love him. I think that he is dynamic, you know, greatly dynamic. And he has, and there are some similarities, in fact, because he does draw a lot of entertainment people. Yeah. But I think, and I don't want to say, but, I'll just say, and he's raw, I'm pretty doggone raw. Right, right, right, right.

Like I, I, I, I, I, I, um, so I'm probably, you know, maybe, and maybe that's, that's, maybe that's, maybe that's, uh, maybe that's why, maybe that is not a good thing. I don't know. I think he's more, maybe more polished, where I'm a little more, I'm polished, but I also will get to a place that I will get greedy to get you. Yeah. You know, if I've got to like, you know, get down there and just tell it like it is, is, is, is, is, talk about, you know, how I was, you know, promiscuous or, you know, you know, you know, centric, you know. Nothing's really off limits, so to speak. I mean, some things are, but not really. If I got to tell you, if I got to show you my scars to really connect with you, I'm going to do it. You know, and he probably is too in his own way. But I think we have a lot of similarities for sure. I want to take a quick break from this episode to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their trite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light. panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where, honestly,

I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage trilight everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therisage.com right now and use code B-Bold for 15% off. This code will work sitewide. Again, head over to Therisage, T-H-H-T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E dot com and use code be bold for 15% off any of their products. So what else, I know that you obviously are, you're a businessman. Yeah, yeah.

And you do all this other, what else, how do you step, how do you divide, not in a balance, divide your time, but what else are you got, what do you up to? You have the, you obviously have this church, you have this book. What else do you do business-wise? Do you have other entities that you do? I do. We've got a multimedia company who's, and our thrust right now is the music. But what we did in the production space through carrying everything was done through our entertainment company.

So we're always looking for, especially because we attract so many young people, we're always looking for shows and concepts that we can use and promote and push. So some of the doors that have opened up to me are in entertainment. And so we're always looking for it. So that's one. I also have Tour A Enterprises is All Things Book and Speaking. So I travel and speak, you know, to leadership events, to some business events. And I've got that going to.

We also have the tour, the Women Evolve tour. Right. That's also under the... Yeah, that's a separate entity. Oh, okay. Women Evolve is a separate entity. Yeah. And so are you traveling a lot now with speaking or Sarah speaking a lot?

Or are you guys like tag team? Do you guys go together? It depends. I mean, we both kind of have our separate things. There's some things that make sense for us to do together. Yeah, what do you guys do together? Where is it like the church? You guys are both under the same YouTube channel?

Is it? Yeah. That's actually what's crazy. That was actually my personal YouTube channel that I built. So even like if you go to it now, it's YouTube.com for it slash Torre Roberts. That's you, right. Yeah. and it all just dovetailed in together.

But she has her own YouTube channels well. And it's called Women Evolve. It's called Sarah Jake's Roberts. Oh, okay, not Women Evolve. And Woman Evolve comes through there. But Woman Evolve is an entity. And under that entity, which she's a CEO. I'm, you know, I was the CEO.

I'm like, I can't do it all. So we hired a C-O, and now we're just partners in the entity. Oh, wow. But that has so many tentacles, you know, it's touring. It's speaking. It's obviously merchandise. There's the store. It's clothing.

It's podcast. Are you talking about yours or hers? That's hers. Some of those entities we share in, but that's kind of. But you guys are also your own personalities, right? So like you have your own entity, which is the speaking, the tours, the books. I also have a leadership organization, a leadership development organization. So that's part of the speaking, but it's also separately.

it's a separate entity, separately branded, which is, because I'm big, I love leadership. And I just love talking about it. I love entrepreneurship. I love empowering people, particularly people who just think grow up around information that helps them in the area of entrepreneurship. So I've got that stream as well.

But we believe, we believe in multiple streams. Like if you're sitting around waiting on, you know. Right. Forget it. Yeah. You got to make your own opportunities. Absolutely. And so this, I know you're going to,

your answer is going to be, but I'm going to ask anyway, do you guys ever get competitive with each other because you guys are in the same lane? Well, that's a great question. I think if we do, it is not spoken. I think that I won't call it competitive because we complement each other so well. And like, because we're really trying to help people and we only win, like, helping people to really be effective at helping people, it requires one another support. Like, I mean, we'll be in there, and there's 5,000 people in a room.

We ain't got time to be competing. Babe, I need you to win. You know, I need you to win this moment, you know, and we'll high five later. But, so it's not competition, but it is, um, I think I'm a better speaker.

I'm a better, uh, marketer because of her. You know, I think that, I think we sharpen each other, you know, like, so right now I'm doing this and she's seeing me at my best because, you know, I wrote this book. I'm doing these interviews, you know, with, you know, great outlets like this one, you know, and so she's seeing me at the top of my game. I'm going to travel, you know, I'm going to New York and a couple of due press there. So I think that it feeds, and she had her turn with woman evolved. Yeah, right. So I think it feeds, it's not competition, because competition is I'm competing against you. And some might say that that's healthy, but that can become a little carnal. It can become a little egoistic. It's not in a negative way. It's more of like healthy competition. Hey, you kill that. Like, wow, I'm going to kill my next thing. Right. I think it's more, it's more like that. Do you guys, and you guys help each other out? Oh, yeah. Everything, we laugh about this, but it's true. When you see one of us, you see both

of us. Like literally, I can, I can feel her in my head right now, saying you better. That's the thing. You better. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and so, I mean, she recorded some stuff yesterday and I wasn't there. But when you see one, you see both because we're, I mean, we're two peas in the pot, but we're so for each other. Like, that's my best friend in the whole world. Like, people talk about this concept of ball and chain. Like, who are you married to?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A woman ain't no ball and chain, man. She's, I would, I'd spend every day with, I don't, I never get tired of her. And never get tired of her. place to be. Yeah. That's a great place. And then are you is your business so like your your business for business. Is there any affiliation with Bishop Jake said? That's just all just in my head. So there's one so so here's what happened. So I have one church. And that was I built that. You know, it's it's it's been what it's been for years. It was a make quote unquote meg church when I met

Sarah. In fact, that's why Derek wanted to introduce Sarah to me to write a book because here is this mega church in LA. Now, of course, Bishop would be a giga. It's a mega. This would be like a mega mega church. Did she promote her book in his church too, by the way? I'm sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And that was a, yeah, he did the foreword and everything on her first book. But it was established. So then Sarah and I get married, you know, and now Sarah is a part of my church. You know, so it's me and her now, you know, so now instead of one, it's two. Right. And we were just rocking that out and that was great. But the church in Denver, which is one of my father-in-law's churches, the pastor there had a moral failure and they had to ask him to leave the church.

So now the church is headless. It has no overseer. You know, Bishop is the big dog, but no person on the ground to run that church. So being a good son-in-law, I said, you know what, we can do it. I'm not going to let, you know, anything that you're doing fall to the ground. So I'm going to do both. I'm not going to give up L.A. I'll move to Denver because it's going to need oversight,

got to build team, leadership, you know, lick the wounds, you know, hit things up. So I took over that church. Now, it was going to be a little odd to say I'm the pastor of one church or one L.A. And the pastor of Potter's house, L.A., they've been rocking with me since 2004. Yeah. So I can't, so how can I, from a branding perspective,

present something that says it's still both? And so what we did was since that church was called the Potter's House of Denver, which was owned and run, you know, headed up by Bishop, I said, we're going to make L.A. a Potter's House church. But we're still going to be L.A. We're going to call it the Potter's House at 1 L.A. You know, so it was, you know, at the time I thought it was a good idea because it makes them feel like, hey, we're just merging into, you know, a bigger situation with him. And I just wanted them to feel like I wasn't leaving them. The only problem is, and I realize this now, that one had a lot of equity. I didn't realize that. Like, my father-in-law, he had a talk show he did, and he had to come out here to do the talk show. And everybody on set, you know, the producers, you know, down to the, you know, craft service people. And they're like, yeah, no, I go to one church. And so he's like, whoa, this church has a massive brand, you know, and we did.

So in hindsight. Wow, yeah. And so people still, even to this day, you know, still, Even when it was the potter house at one LA, we're still calling one church. Right. That's how strong the brand was. And it was unique for all those years.

So, but I changed it. And I think it was a mistake, to be honest with you. It wasn't a mistake in my intention to unify and to let my L.A. people know that I'm still there. But I think, if I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have taken that other entity. But that's all the story. But anyway. So when the pandemic hit, everybody went online.

Everybody went online. We lived in Denver for a year. I moved back because I just couldn't. My family thrived in L.A. Thank God we didn't get rid of our house in Calabasas. Our family thrived. And I moved back, started doing Denver remotely. And then when pandemic, and when I said remotely streaming from L.A. into Denver.

And then when the pandemic hit, everybody was virtual. So I took Denver and, of course, LA virtual, kept our feeding center in Denver open and our local outreach to the community open. But I closed church and made it digital only and I decided to close it personally or permanently with the exception of online and local outreach so that I can focus here. When I did that, I brought the name back. And so now it's one, but to honor the Potter's house, there's a little tagline. that says a potter's house church. So I reclaim one. And one is true to me.

Right. It's true to me. You know, so anyway. No, I like that. I feel like, how long I've been talking to you for you for? This is good. We can do this forever. I mean, I feel like I didn't ask you any real of the questions I had written

to have in here. But getting back to your book, I think I asked you like three questions about it. I asked you about balance and I asked you about how to know if you're in balance, how to get in balance. Do we talk about how to get in balance, a few steps? Yeah, we talked about the step, step of stopping, quieting the noise, and then we kind of went on the tangent, which are the first two steps. The power of no, we didn't really speak about.

We got to talk about that. Yeah, let's talk about the power of no. And then we can, like, I can let you out of here. Okay. You can come back again. Cool. People are going to be like, what is going on? This is not Joe Rogan with five hours.

Yeah, so please, you talk very much about this in the book, about 90% of your time you should say no to. things, not the opposite around. The power of no. Yeah. What is, what do you, why, why and, well, why? Yeah, that's probably,

that could be the most important chapter in the book, Power of No. And the reason why no is important is because yes is expensive. You know, when you say yes to something, and it's easy to do because, let's talk about it. Somebody presents something to you, particularly if it's a friend, a mentor, somebody you want to work with, you know what I mean, and they present something to you. The easiest, or an opportunity, the easiest thing to do is to say yes, because why? There's instant gratification with yes. There was no conflict.

You're liked. You feel good. There's instant gratification. Okay, great, right? But the only thing is it feels good in that moment. But what happens later when something that you really want to do, something that you've been working your butt off for, you've been preparing for, you've been praying about, you're you got all your friends in, that comes up.

Now you've realized the value of the yes that you gave because now you have to say no to something that matters and then you get busy. And so, you know, I am dramatic when I say that you ought to have the 90-10 no to yes rule. It does seem dramatic, right? What 90%? Nine out of ten things ought to be saying no to?

Absolutely. Now, here's the caveat. If you have a good structure, good system around you, good staff or whatever, then maybe it's more like 50% because your staff is screening some of the requests that come your way. So maybe you're at 50-50.

But the average person who doesn't have, who don't have gatekeepers, don't have anybody around you, you should be saying no, because you want to have a healthy amount of yeses available for the just because. When I say yes,

I'm committing my time, my energy, my person, and my availability. I'm a limited resource. I can't do that. I'm slattered you're hearing. Yeah.

Thank you. It's true. I'm honored. This is great. So no is everything because yes is expensive. And you know what else I like about no? No qualifies your relationships. Because some people, the relationship only works because you always say yes.

You should just try it. Just like, you know, I always say, let me just throw a no in here and see if they walk away. And you'll be surprised. Some people, if you're offended because I have a boundary and I'm trying to protect myself and I'm trying to better myself and I'm trying to level up. And in order to do so, I have to tell you no this one time. If you're offended by that, you're not my friend. My no just qualified the relationship. Yeah. So I love no knowing.