Habits and Hustle - Episode 531: Leslie John: Oversharing as a Competitive Advantage in Leadership and Negotiation

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

We’ve been conditioned to believe that saying less is safer. But playing it safe costs trust, influence, stronger negotiations, and deeper relationships because the line between “too much” and meaningful connection is further out than we think. In the latest episode of Habits & Hustle, I’m joined by author Leslie John to break down the exact tipping point where leader vulnerability backfires, why holding your cards close in negotiation weakens your leverage, and how pushing slightly past your comfort zone builds real authority. Leslie John is the James E. Burke Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School and author of Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing. Her award-winning research appears in top academic journals and media including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Economist. What’s Discussed (04:00) Why oversharing feels risky but builds stronger relationships and influence (06:31) The difference between emotional dumping and strategic vulnerability (18:23) Disclosure flexibility and knowing when to reveal versus hold back (20:55) Why long term relationships erode when partners stop sharing (27:15) How strategic transparency increases trust and customer retention (28:50) The most common negotiation mistake: leading with concealment (34:03) Leader vulnerability and the tipping point where credibility drops (41:01) Authenticity versus impulse and why emotional intelligence matters Thank you to our sponsors: Rho Nutrition: Try Rho Nutrition today and experience the difference of Liposomal Technology. Use code JEN20 for 20% OFF everything at https://rhonutrition.com/discount/jen20. Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE40 for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off  Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order  Amp fit is the perfect balance of tech and training, designed for people who do it all and still want to feel strong doing it. Check it out at joinamp.com/jen  Find more from Jen:  Website: https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Leslie John: Website: https://lesliekjohn.com Instagram: @proflesliejohn Youtube: @ProfLeslieJohn X: @ProfLeslieJohn

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Habits and Hustle. And we have a very special guest. Number one, she's Canadian. All that matters, right? And she lived in Winnipeg for many years. But really, she's exceptionally impressive. Not only is she like a professional dancer, which of course is her background when she was younger. This woman is a professor at Harvard. She is, I guess, she's a behavioral, a behavioral scientist. scientist and she is an expert in decision making. And also she's a new book called and her new book is called her new book is called the underrated power of oversharing, actually revealing is the title. And then the underrated power of oversharing. So I guess we're going to talk all about the power of oversharing

on this episode and everything in between. So thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me. This is exciting. First of all, I love anything when I see the word behavioral, behavioral, psychologist, scientists. I'm, like, fascinated by how the human psyche works, the brain works. And given that your background is, I was saying before we started, you're a dancer plus the Harvard. I mean, your attention to detail and discipline must be off the charts. I drive myself crazy sometimes. Well, listen, then I love it. So I'm here for it. So before we start, we do this thing on here. We basically take a shot. It's a mental performance shot.

Right. To keep you super kind of, I guess, very, basically very focused. And you don't need it, though. I would highly doubt someone with your background. But let's do it anyway. Yeah, I'm excited. So we basically, cheers. Cheers. Yours actually has no caffeine. Mine has caffeine. Are you okay with caffeine? Not right. That's too late. Good. Yeah, that's good choice. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm going to have to only just take a little oil to be up all night. Not like there's so much of it, but I'd better be careful. I literally had like four today. So I'm not going to have any more. It's good, though, right?

That's delicious. I know, isn't that delicious? And it's all very good quality ingredients. It's like as well. And it's sugar-free. Yes, of course. That one, yes. It's like natural sweetness.

What is? It's like, no, I know. You are complaining about your eyes. I'm like, I know. I'm literally blind, by the way, now. Literally. I don't know. Like, within like, it's good.

It's very good. One day, I can see the next day I'm blind. So, all right, let's get into it because I have so many questions for you. And I want to start with the obvious. So I have to use my phone here. But the real, let's start at the beginning. Like, why is oversharing actually underrated? Yes. And then we'll kind of go through, we'll go down the rabbit hole. Right, great, great. I love rabbit holes. So it's, it's something that I think we feel, I mean, the word oversharing, it's a very loaded term. We feel a lot of shame about. Yeah. And we shouldn't,

because there's so much redemption in even our most outrageous, cringy blurts often. I know. Yes, so do I. And I think that once, like, we live in fear of TMI, right? Which sucks. Like, you, we've all felt that, like, disclosure hangover of like, oh, my God, what did I do last night? But what we often, what they say last night. Exactly. Yes. But what we often don't appreciate is that there's so many wonderful benefits of being a little more open. Like sharing your most embarrassing story, which I once did, to some very senior people, definitely had a disclosure hangover, but then those two people became some of my closest friends and strongest mentors. Like there's opening up gets us so much. It gets us better relationships, better well-being, even influence when you're thinking of leaders and

persuasion. Well, let me start with saying this. Okay, so first of all, the TMI, I think because also we're living in a society and culture where social media is so prevalent. Yeah. And oversharing is just like at its all-time high, right? What is the difference between, I guess, emotionally just like vomiting on somebody and just oversharing in a very positive way? Oh, I love that. What do you mean by oversharing in a positive way? Because I do, I think, and even after reading your book and my own personal experience and opinion, I think there is a real benefit to being vulnerable and being open because it makes people feel closer to you. It makes them feel like there's there, you're not hiding as much and all those things. Yeah. But there is a very fine line

between doing that and then I think giving people too much information, yes, where it becomes uncomfortable and awkward for the other people. And in your experience, when you became very close with your seniors, a lot of times it could be the opposite where people feel like actually they're, they're kind of like, they recoil because it's too much information. Yes, yes. Totally. And I think, yeah, TMI is a thing. Yeah. I think we worry too much about it and not enough about T-L-I, too little information. But there's a lot of, like, rules or norms of disclosure. So this vomiting of emotions is too much too soon.

It's, you know, it's like when you're forging a new friendship with someone and the person never asks you a question, they never pass the torch to you. And so the sequencing, especially in when we don't know someone well, in early relationships, it's really important that we reveal, but together, slowly, gradually deepening. If someone does it out of turn and vomits everything, then it's TMI and it's off-putting and it can signal a lot of things about the person that they might not be available, so to speak, to be a friend or a colleague or a partner. So what are some parameters that people can learn and work through or strategies?

Yes. Because, you know, if you're not self-aware enough to know where that boundary is, you can get yourself into trouble. Completely. So I loved the term you use, the, like, positive oversharing. And that is, so something that I think we chronically undershare. And it's a very easy thing for people who are like, I don't know how to share more. What does this mean? I'm suspicious, which is fair. Praise. So think of all the positive thoughts you have. Like, look at this gorgeous window in the beautiful backyard and the lush foliage, right? Like, you think of all these lovely thoughts during the day. And we, we We often keep them to ourselves. But what if you, if you are bonding with someone, you're starting to like them, if you just say, hey, I like you.

I did that once when I was at dinner with close friends and then a couple of acquaintances. And the one woman I said to her, I'm like, yeah, I like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was a little caught off guard because it's a little odd, but it's pretty safe. You know, praising someone is not vomiting all of your innermost thoughts and feelings. It's a positive thing. And so you will find, I mean, and I've been experimenting. This book is like an experiment in life where I've been trying new things.

And one of the things I've been trying is like just saying the positive thing out loud, like someone I love their haircut, walking down the street, I love your haircut. So that's different. So when I think of oversharing, right? And when I first saw the title of your book, but I initially thought it was like oversharing private details about one's life. Yes. I never thought about, you know, being outwardly complimentary.

Right, right. So before you came here, I was actually. doing another podcast with someone else. And I was talking about the idea that when I naturally, I'm very, I just, I'm like that, I'm very blunt and I blur things out. But like if I notice something positive about somebody, no matter what, I don't care if they're a guy, a girl, whatever, like, I will just tell them what it is. It could be like, I like, I like your shoes, I like your haircut.

Right. You have a good laugh. I think that that disarms people. Completely. Yeah. And so like, and it's not being, it's being genuine. Right. I'm not being, it's not contrived. That's core, yeah. Right. That's core. It's very, it's not being contrived.

Yeah. And that can connect people because, like, you're disarming someone and you're allowing them the ability to kind of then feel like, oh, wow, like in their head, like, oh, they like me. I can, I can be myself or it gives a positive feeling. Right. Right. That's different than oversharing. Yeah. No, totally. So when we think of oversharing, you're exactly hit the nail in the head. We think of, you know, sharing your deepest, darkest, insecurities, vulnerabilities, feelings. Fears. Fears. Right, right. Taboo things, like all kinds of things. And so even then, when you think of oversharing in that classic form, I think we're too scared of it. Yeah. Because it can do so many things. And as I was, you know, you would ask me as we were coming to the studio about like how I got here, this idea. And it actually, I did a 180 where the first part of my career I studied. I call myself a recovering privacy expert because what I studied was so narrow the way academics do. I can make fun of academics as one. And so I studied, like I saw all these. It was the early 2000s and you see people, you know, posting things on Facebook, which sounds so old to say now, but like, you know, Virgin Atlantic flight attendants venting about their company and then they get fired. Like all of these classic stupid sharing. And I was, and so I had all tinkering and was doing all these studies showing, oh, we share like when it's dangerous and at the wrong time and we're duped by companies

and stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop doing that. But the, which wasn't wrong, but it wasn't right either because over the years I had this kind of growing disconnect that I couldn't suppress anymore that came into consciousness, which was there was my professional life and then my personal life, I'm a, I'm super blurtacious. I'm, like I, I have spoiled three surprise parties. It's very hard. And I thought, but it's, there's, you know, I think I have a really high quality of life and I'm very happy and I have close friends and there's, there's just something more to this. Like, there's something deeply right about what we're doing about sharing a lot. Now, it's not to say we should always tell everyone our deepest, deepest, darkest secrets. But then as I was thinking about

this more, you know, you just kind of like become obsessed with the idea and it made me realize how every day we have disclosure. We decide every day what to share, what not to share. And so often we decide, maybe not you because you're wonderfully unusual, but to not say, like, someone asks how you are and you feel like, shit, you don't say that. Right. Right. And so when you think about it, yeah, and we shouldn't always tell the honest truth. That's problematic in the other way, but there just is so much, so much hiding and undersharing. And what if we shared a bit more? And then I noticed, you know, some of, how can you write a book about revealing without revealing yourself? And so there were times in my life when I thought, like, I insulted, in my Harvard

interview, I insulted, and this was inadvertent, not strategic at all, but one of these blurtacious things. And I insulted my interviewer. I basically called him fat. What did you say? So he was, oh, he was trying to make me feel comfortable because I was super nervous. I walk into this, It's in a hotel suite, like it's very bizarre, but normal for academia? Or a Harvard interview? Yeah, so it's out of big nerd jambria. I know. It's so weird and sketchy.

Anyways, all of the universities interview in hotel rooms. It's named Harvey Weinstein. I know. This was like a long, this was 2010. So I don't, oh. You know, they might still do it, though. Really? They would interview in a hotel room.

Yeah, so every university gets their little hotel room and the candidates come in one by one. and it's usually mostly men. Once I went to, I won't say the name of the university, but I go into the room, and it's a normal room, two senior academics lounging on the beds with the shoes off, like they were close. Really? It was just so, yeah. And you were in this interview. That's so weird. I know. So, so many things, right? But the Harvard one, they had a suite, so that was lovely. It was like a little more professed because it was less lounging on beds. We're on the soap on step. Right. Right. All. men. Okay. Were they wearing clothing? They were and they were all suited up. And it was and it was a lot of men. It was

like it was like overpower. It was like nine men. It was like there's a lot of men. You know, and so I was, I was nervous and I, because one of my, the mentors who I told a very embarrassing story to a long time ago and we became close, he was there and I know he like used social capital. So I felt like this was like I actually had a chance. And so when I get nervous, I get even. more unfiltered. It's terrible. I think everyone though. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. My husband's the opposite. Yeah. But anyway, so I sit down and who became a beloved colleague, he's valiantly trying to make me feel more comfortable. So he looks at my resume and he's like, oh, you're a ballet dancer. I used to be one too. And then I just, in that moment, I don't know why I decided to do it.

It's like some primal, weird, maybe I am a jerk down inside. I don't know. But I just, I looked him up and down. I cocked my head and I said clearly. Like the most sassy. And he's kind of portly. So it was like, oh, and then like I face turned bright red and I'm just like, oh my God, get me out of you. It was like, I just like poured gasoline on myself and lit it. I'm like, this is, please, I want to leave. There was like awkward laughter and then someone got me a drink. Unfortunately, it was non-alcoholic, but we got through it. And then they hired me. And you know, the colleague, and he became a super close dear friend of mine, he just retired, and he would love whenever there were new candidates, he would love telling the story. He's like, you know,

when she insulted me like that, we thought, she'll fit in, she'll fit right in here. She's a jerk to like, she can. That's hilarious. Well, that's also to your point when you're like, you never really know how people are going to react to how you reveal what you reveal. Right. And I guess to your, like, I guess you would think that that would have had like a negative response. For sure. And he actually like liked it. Yeah. And thought it was funny. Yeah. And it made you guys kind of bond. I mean, in the moment, I think he was like a little bit jar and maybe a little offended because it's a lot. Yeah. But then it was like, oh my God, this was hilarious. But also you did have social capital with the other guy who brought you in. I did. So so that was that was a good extenuating circumstance too. Exactly. But but yeah. So episodes like that, like I was reflected. a lot. And I thought, and that's part of it, too, that, like, if you never experiment,

the answer isn't like, say jerky things to people. But if you don't experiment saying the thing, then, then you can't kind of falsify the overblown fears you have of TMI. But I think that maybe it's not really oversharing, though. It's more about being open and receptive to, like, a back and forth, like, to be, like, having an earnest way of, like, communicating. Right. And and being, like, open, minded. I think. And, yeah. about open or being vulnerable, you know, not to overuse that word. I know that word's been very overplayed vulnerability, but at the same time, it is about that. Because I think, again, it's about when you let your guard down, you're allowing other people to let their guard down. But I still

push back on the fact that that's not so much, like literally when I think of overshare. It's like saying, it's not even saying that comment that you said to the professor, it's more about like saying like something like kind of like really like just has zero to do with what the circumstances is. and like talking about something and you're like, you know, like, oh yeah, when that guy dumped me after we had sex and whatever it was, you know what I mean? That's not good sharing. Yeah, that's something. That's definitely, TMI is alive and well.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there is, and you talk about this, you talk about revealers and concealers. Yeah. And I would imagine people who are revealers are people who, people gravitate to versus concealing. Because, again, when you feel like, when you feel like people are like, hiding something or they're not forthright, it doesn't bring you close to them.

Yes, yes. But at the same time, to your point, you also avoid the person who, like, trauma dumps. Like, it just is like all about me all the time. Right. And so I think the most healthy way to be and the most desirable in terms of people wanting to be friends with you and most fulfilling is are the people that have a lot of disclosure flexibility, which is to say people that that modulate between the extremes, they go super, super deep with their partners. They tell their partners all their fears, their thoughts and feelings. And then they're very reserved in context, like super competitive professional context when it behooves you to be to be really reserved. So it's about kind of, it's not like one size fits all. We should be revealers all the time

or concealers. It's most of us would benefit from opening up a little bit more, but we need to practice revealing and not revealing in lots of context so that we can kind of get a better feel for what's the right amount in which situation. That's why it's not so simple, right? Okay, so give us some examples of when to be a revealer and when to be a concealer. Yeah. So as I was writing the book, it's interesting because your point about like what is oversharing and I have always thought of myself as an oversharer. And then as I was writing the book, I thought, oh, you know, I love sharing. It's fun. I don't know. Maybe this is my messed up psychology, but it's fun sharing self-deprecating jokes about myself and like funny stories. I enjoy that.

And I've thought of myself as an oversharing because of that. But then as I got really into it, I thought, wow, I'm actually not, I'm not sharing the really important stuff, you know. And so I think when I say like the underrated power of oversharing, that's what I mean. I mean, most of us stand to really open ourselves up, be vulnerable in the right time with the right person. There's been some one really sad, but it's changed, writing this, I know it's cheesy to say, it has changed my life, it has improved my marriage, it was great to begin with, but it's one of the things I learned as I was writing the book is that lots, long-term relationships, marriages, most of the time they don't break down because of some dramatic affair, or, which is

horrible. A lot of the time what happens is that people grow further apart. And then a rabbit hole, rabbit hole. Why? Why? Well, they stop sharing. Why do they stop sharing? It's the easiest person to share with. It's your spouse, super safe person. And I realize what happens is when you, it's a cognitive bias. When you are with someone for a long time, you know them really well. And the longer you're with them, the more you know them. But the problem is that your confidence that you know them out sizes your actual knowledge. So the longer you're with someone, you think you know them better than you do. And that's where the problem begins, right? Because then you're like, I don't need to ask questions. I don't need to learn. I can read their mind. They can read my mind. Like saying it out loud is ridiculous. Like, no, people can't read my mind,

but it's this implicit belief. And then you stop sharing. And then, and as soon as I, there's even a scale, right, I went lots of rabbit holes. There's a scale, you know, psychologists have a scale for everything that measures how strong of a mind reader, how much you believe in mind reading. So the belief that, kind of this overly romanticized belief that your partner should just know what you want all the time. Right. And then I took that myself, and I'm super high in it. And as soon as I learned that about myself, I'm like, oh, wow, I am not telling Colin that I feel anxious about something. He can't read my mind. It's not that he's a jerk. He just doesn't know what I'm feeling. And so I realized all these things where I thought he was being insensitive and, like, empathic failures was just because he can't read

my mind. And we're not different than studies. They've had studies of couples who've loved each other for like 12 years longer than either of my marriages. And even couples who've loved each other for at least 12 years, when they do exercises where they try to, like, intuit what their partner is thinking and feeling, they get it wrong 80% of the time. And so like, yes. And so it's like that, like completely was a paradise shift for me. It was like, what, feels like over-communicating is just communicating. That is really incredible. I didn't realize that that number is so high. And it's so true. It's like you become, not like necessarily taking them for granted, but you're so accustomed and used to them being around that you feel like you

know every step of what they're going to do, how they're going to do it. Right. And you actually don't. Yeah. Especially their feelings. The feelings, yes. You know their values, you know their personality traits, the things that are pretty... Or their daily habits. Yeah, the stable things about the person. But are, when you think of the day and the life of my feelings, like, well, you don't go up and down that much, but there's a lot of variation, right? Yeah, absolutely. And they're so internal and private. So then, okay, so this is still interesting because you're saying, like, you started off as being like an expert in decision making. Yeah. And privacy. Yeah. And like decision making mistakes and how we suck. Yeah. No, exactly. So negative. All these things are, have nothing really to do with

oversharing. I still, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is the bridge between? It's interesting. That's so fascinating. So I think of privacy as like what I had done for the first was like, look at these people online oversharing.

They're saying things they shouldn't be saying. They're making mistakes. But how did you begin to that? Get into the, like how does that even become like an area? An area. I know. Like you're like, where did you go to school? In Canada.

Of course. But where in Canada? But University of Waterloo. And that's where I learned, like, I just gravitated towards psychology. It's amazing how, like, some professors, they're just, I don't even know if it's the topic. I wonder if it's the quality of the instructor, right? They're just so passionate about it. So I got really into it.

And then I went to grad school in Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon. And I remember, I remember, so it was like, I want to say it was like 2006. And I remember sitting in the lab doing my, like, statistical analyses. And my friend beside me, she's like, look, this is Facebook. book and I'm like, what? I just, it was like this totally strange alien thing. I'm like, I don't understand this. What's a wall? Why are you doing that? Like, I just, I did not get it. And so I'm like, this doesn't come, so then I was like, I need to understand this. And because I was like, because I was so unfamiliar, like the frame is a negative frame. And isn't it amazing how the frame

that you approach something with has such a profound effect on how you interpret it? It's all about framing and reframing. Framing is so powerful. But that's why they say like in order, like, how you behave is all about the frame or you've got to reframe negativity. It's so powerful. Right. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. It's all about reframing. Yeah. Okay. So you see this crazy Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People are like posting their like children and all their private things on this crazy wall for the global world to see. Right. This is weird. Right. I'm going to go into being a privacy expert. Right. Exactly. Okay. And then there were people, scholars there who studied it from different, from like a purely economics lens. Okay. And I was the kind of weird.

psychology person. And so we kind of fused our minds together and started doing all kinds of experiments. But then had you ended up at Harvard, besides this guy that was a social, you know, lubricant for you. Yeah, no, I mean, and we did research together. And so I was kind of a known entity. I started doing research with them early on. But then, yeah, so I mean, I, I feel like I worked very hard. I also got lucky, you know, it's, there's so many qualified people for these jobs. But what were you teaching? What was your class? Oh, yeah. So I, I, I actually, taught marketing. I know. I'm like, you're never going to be able to compute my strength. It's like a completely jagged. I know. I had all this. It's a very jagged, jagged path.

Okay. Marketing. But I, you know, I think, I think in hindsight it may seem less jagged to me, at least, because this fundamental thing about making yourself known, knowing others is so core to so many things in life. It's core to marketing. Like knowing your customers is like really core. How do you know them? What do you, how do you communicate with them? What do you tell them that you know about them? And so we did all kinds of studies on that, too. And when companies reveal, when companies overshare by, we did these big experiments with banks where they and where they were selling their credit cards on, they had credit card web pages. And they, in one study, we said, what if you actually made the downsides really salient? Like normally credit card website, when you're buying a credit card, it's like, oh, this is an amazing low rate or great points. But what if, and the fine print is, but what if you were more transparent? What if you made it super standing that, hey, the fees suck? And so we convinced this, my colleague Ryan Buell and I convinced this company, a large Australian company, to do an experiment. And it turned out when they were forthcoming, when they overshared, that would be, I would think that would be like a company oversharing. That's like information on like,

you're basically saying like, don't buy this. Yeah, exactly. And when they did that, the customers trust them more. And they, then they actually are more likely to stay on. It's a really powerful customer retention tool. So this is all to say that I know it's a very jagged path, but there is this thread of like, you know, and then you, like I teach negotiation and what's negotiation? The people that are the best negotiators are the people that can understand what they value and what their counterparts value. And that requires strategic sharing, managing what to share, what not to share. And teaching that, or I've been teaching that for like 10 years now, the single most common mistake in negotiation is that people don't share enough.

because they're scared of it because they're like, I think this person's going to rip me off. And that's true sometimes, but so often it's not true. And it's, if you start by being concealing, very technical term, very. Concealment gets concealment. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you start by saying, look, this is what I want in this deal and these are my values. These are the things I care about. These are the things I care about less. Now you're off to the races. Because then they can say, oh, you don't care about that. I care a lot. And I care less about the thing you want. And we can trade, right? So this can be friends. forward in a negotiation and not be concealing, as you put it, is actually more beneficial to the deal.

Nine times out of ten, yes. There's, for sure, there's a, there's, I'm not saying we should reveal everything in a negotiation, far from it. But the default we have of like, wall, that's what I see again. Like holding your cars close to the vest. Right. Executives, like they're top of their game. And they come, they come to the first session and they're like, guns are blazing and they're like, okay, it's a competition and, like, guard up. And then I tell them, well, what if you ask and answer questions? And then we put the, because I like data and numbers, we put the results on the board. The people that are more forthcoming, they don't get ripped off. They actually get better deals because they figure out what each other wants. And then they realize they can both

have what they want in many cases, not all cases, for sure. Not all cases, but. Well, it was interesting also, what I noticed also besides the negotiation, is like, I was going to say this earlier about, and I don't know why this came up when I, when I was like researching you, but like how companies who market, though, to only women actually repel women. Oh, yeah. Where's that from? So that's a paper we did.

It's called, well, I don't know if they let it, the publisher let us use the name we wanted to use. It was like, it was like beer for chicks or something. And this idea of like, like there was a pen, pilot had a, purple pen, like especially for women's hands or something. And people rejected it, right? So it was like two, it's because it's because it took this idea of like knowing your customers, knowing what they care about. And it massively oversimplified it. And it made people feel like they were reduced to a single category of membership, right? And like so many research ideas, this came from my childhood where like I had an extra grind, research is therapy for me. Right. It's for everybody.

If you can't do, you teach. Yeah, yeah. No, I know. It's so true. Well, I had a babysitter when I was like, I don't know, seven or something. And she would always say, your favorite color is pink. Your girl, your favorite color's pink. And I'm, no, it's not pink.

And I actually really like pink. But I was so stubbornly hated that, that I always blue is my favorite color, right? And so this like idea, this reactance of like when you feel reduced to a single category of membership, it's very off-puting. And again, it speaks to this point about. like how being known for who you really are is so calming and so trust building and so bonding. And in couples, you see this as well where there have been studies of people who, so there's one scenario where suppose I have low self-esteem and my spouse, he says,

oh, you're a goddess, you never have low self-esteem. Like you're super confident all the time. So that's like an idealized version of me. So that's one version. Or in the other version, he says, oh, Les, I know you have low self-esteem. And it turns out that it's the people who feel like their partners know them, warts and all. I would rather my partner know my suck equalities and admit to them than some fantasy. Like it's being known for who you are that really, really is such a powerful basis for relationships

and trust and influence and all good things. I think, well, I think that's 100% true. Like, you know, when you say to someone like, oh, I'm like really down or I'm like, I'm super, I'm down or I'm like not feeling great. And they're like, what do you mean? You're such a superstar. You can handle anything. It's like how. I hate that. I hate that too. It's like it's like you feel so, I hate this word unseen and like you don't know me. You don't know me. You don't know me. You don't know me at all. Like what do you mean? Like you're so tough. You're so strong. Like you can get through anything. Right. It's such like it's like I don't know what you call it. It just brushes over everything. It's like a dismissal and a denial. Yeah. God forbid you have real emotions or feelings. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I know what you're saying. Like I thought it's the worst.

It's the worst. I'd rather the person say, yeah, I know that you struggle with this. It's okay, but you're going to get through it. Yeah. Yeah. You are kind of a hot match, but that's okay. I love you still. Yeah.

Or whatever it is. It's so much more meaningful when someone loves you then, right? Well, yeah, because you feel like, like you said, like you feel like someone actually like is getting under the hood and understands and knows you. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

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about obviously why oversharing can be powerful and like where the lines are crossed. I still really, we actually haven't really kind of delved as deep as I'd like into this where the lines crossed. We know that when you compliment people in a genuine way, it's very, very, it brings people, it's disarming, it brings people into like a nicer space and all the other things. What about leaders? Ah, good. I'm glad you went there.

Yes. So that is an area where this may, this may qualify. this way. But we'll see. So when leaders are vulnerable, I also don't like the word vulnerable, because I'm like, what does that mean? My skin's vulnerable. When they share a work-related weakness that they are working on or a difficult feeling related to work. So something that is, it's vulnerable in the sense that it has risk to it, sharing your feelings, sharing your weaknesses. we have found in study after study that when leaders, high status people, share some of their weaknesses.

So, for example, if they said to a group of new recruits gave their introduction and they also added in their self-description, you know, I'll admit that sometimes I get nervous public speaking. And so that's something that you would not expect a leader to share. And what we find is when leaders do this, it makes their employees trust them. it makes their employees more motivated to work for them relative to when they they don't, it's more of a facade. Like a leader then is not relatable. And you can't trust someone who is never vulnerable or never has no flaws, no apparent flaws, right? And then we did more studies

where we were like, well, how far, what, how much vulnerability, right? Like what's the tipping point? Because surely, you know, if you say something extremely vulnerable, that can't be good. And so what we did, I love my job, is we had different, we had employees watch different versions of a leader introducing himself, and we did it with a woman leader too. And we just varied how sense, how deep the disclosure was. So we would start with like, sometimes I get nervous public speaking. And then another would be, sometimes I get nervous public speaking so much so that my mouth gets dry sometimes. There's the Canadian accent mouth. And then another one, all of that, I get nervous public speaking so that my mouth gets dry, and sometimes I have full-blown panic attacks. And so we wondered, like, at what point? And we asked people, we asked leaders, we're like, are any of these safe? Or are they all undermining? And they're like, oh, my God, those are all undermining. I would never do that. Like, no, sharing that you're nervous public speaking, it erodes. Your company won't have faith in you. They'll think you're incompetent, right? And so then we actually got employees to tell us what they thought. And

it actually, the first one, they enhanced trust, and it did not make you think the, the, the, leader is incompetent. The second level, same thing. The one, so I'm nervous public speaking and sometimes my mouth gets dry. That was like not, that was not a career limiting disclosure. In fact, it built trust. The third one was like, okay, now this person is like, I don't know if they can do their job. And so that's what the pattern we see again and again is that the line is often a little bit further than you think it is. Right. I believe that. The line's further than you think. But again, I'm always going to go back to. They're still a lot. line. They're still a line. 100%. And so if we're not in like some kind of like petri dish where you're doing

an experiment, right? What are we do? What are we supposed to do? Because I think that there's also a piece of this where there are different degrees of people's self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Yes. You know, some people can kind of like feel innately like, oh, there's a line here. Like I know exactly how to push it, how to come back at it. Right. There are other people have zero social like skills. Right. And they'll have no idea and it will be TMI. Yes. So again, where is the middle ground between TLI to little information and TMI? That is the fundamental question.

And I can't say it's here because it's always shifting. But what I can say is, one, knowing where the line is, is a skill. It's a learnable skill. So people with self-awareness, that gives you a huge advantage. And in fact, getting this right enhances your self-awareness too. So one of the best ways to learn the skill is to practice by being, so we have this general finding of like it's often a little further than you think, okay, well, you can implement that in real life, go a little bit further than you think, observe what happens, see what happens,

experiment, test, learn. It's not something, if you never try it, you will never know, you'll never learn. The other thing is there's also some pretty tried and true like cues that you can use are like rules of thumb. And one of those rules of thumb is reciprocity. So if you are in, I don't know, we could talk about it in dating, we could talk about it in friendship. So suppose you're you're looking for a new friend and you're in a social situation with new potential friends. Reciprocity is really your number one tool here. And what that means is that you want to share something. So the goal is find a point of commonality that you can both relate to, because friendship is made on mutuality and finding things in common and liking.

Well, how do you do that? You need to reveal and find these things. So start with something casual, like not a big reveal, a question even, and then they'll share something. And then the key thing is when you respond, you want to meet them and maybe raise them a bit. So you want to share something that's just as vulnerable or not vulnerable as them and go a little bit further. And then what they'll do is that it's such a natural instinct to reciprocate.

They'll do the same thing. you're off to the races. So the sequencing really matters. So the way you can implement it, if you're saying, like, I'm an alien from outer space, how do I do this? Is you look, are they reciprocate? Or am I talking the whole time? Am I not letting them reciprocate? Maybe I should ask them a question to get them, right? To get that back and forth. So is authenticity a good thing or a bad thing? Ooh, that's a good question. I bet you have a view. I would love your view, but do you want me to go first? Sure. You go first and then I'll tell you my view. Is the question is, is authenticity ever a bad thing?

No, is authenticity a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? I think it is generally a good thing. I think that to me, one of the core things is not to be pedantic, but how you define authenticity. So to me, authenticity does not mean saying everything that is on my mind at all times. That is not authenticity. To me, authenticity means being genuine, saying the synthetically. sincere things that I mean that are appropriate for the context at hand. And there, I mean, what's not to like about that? I think that's amazing. It's hard to do. Yeah. I would say, in my opinion, what I think, I think authenticity is good 80% of the time. Because the other times,

I think when you are speaking, when you're speaking to someone and you're telling the truth, that can be sometimes not so great. If you feel, like being authentic, like I don't feel like getting out of bed today, so I'm not going to do these things that I have to do. But I'm being authentic. Oh, that's not good. Right? Or like, you know, like, I got to like, you can't just not be a grown up. You can't be a grown up. Yeah, yeah. But like, there's all this chitter-chatter about being authentic and authenticity. And I'm one of those people who really believe in, you know, being authentic and genuine and real. Right. Genuine and real. Genuine and real. Which sometimes gets very crowded with the word authenticity. Because if you, if authenticity, you, if authenticity,

is you just being an asshole, then maybe you shouldn't, maybe being authentic isn't so great. Completely, completely. So I think, again, I think everything comes down to emotional intelligence and having the self-awareness or the self-intelligence and social intelligence. And situational awareness, completely. And situational awareness. But with why I say this is, what I've learned is common sense isn't so common. I know. Right? Most people don't have it. And I, I sit here. Use your noodle people. Use your noodle. But you know what? I sit here all day with some of the most smartest. I know. We academics are the worst for common sense, aren't we? We're like, we get it all contorted. Unbelievable. I've had these conversations and they're like, use your noodle.

But even, or just like not picking up on like basics. Yeah, completely. Right? Where like these people, like I said, who are like the smartest, most successful. And I'm like, you are a moron? Yeah. Like, are you not picking up on like the social situation, the circumstance? Like you can be very, very smart in one area. IQ. Or in one area of your life. Yeah. But be a complete moron in everything else. Yeah. Completely. I agree. And I believe, like, you know what, in my opinion, I think it's actually better to be smart in like, be street smart than being school smart. I totally agree. And I did not always think that. So. Well, you're an academic. Oh, I know. It's like blasphemous for me to say that. Right. But, you know, I, yeah, IQ is great and all. But I just, I take what you're calling

realness, street smarts, I think of it as EQ Ritlar, you know, like being able to read the worm, self-awareness, emotional intelligence, all of those things, I think are way more important than IQ, way more important, way more important for achievement in life. We often think it's IQ, but I don't think so. These things are way more important for achievement, but also like for well-being and relationships and joy, you know. Well, you said it there, joy. I think that's one thing, like, yeah, well, if you're trying to be a professor or a surgeon, yeah, you need to have really great grades. I mean, you know, have them off the charts, right? But like, how about for like being happy in life and being successful personally or having like deep relationships

or all these other things? Exactly. Super important to be more emotionally aware and emotionally intelligent. It's interesting how times have changed because I'm thinking to my, my parents and they both, especially my mom like super smart woman skipped two or three grades and nowadays so we have a five-year-old and we just held him back which to my mom if you're listening to my mother's chagrin she's like what not so subtle suddenly he's so smart he's so smart I'm like I know he's smart but EQ like his ability to under deal with difficult emotions understand himself like that's so much more important and the data show unequivocally boys are much less good at that. Why? Because of the way we socialize them and all these things. And so like I, like he,

I want him to. And so now we do the opposite, right? And I think about my mom and how, you know, she, in some ways, she really struggled in school, not academically, like grades, but like I think this old school way of like people would skip grades all the time. And now we do the opposite. I think it makes so much more sense that like, I'm all on board for, if anything, I'm like overcorrected. You're over correcting. How do you feel? Let's talk about that feeling, you And they're just like, I just want to play above. Right. And there's too much of that, I think, too.

But you said something earlier that I thought was really interesting because you're a Harvard professor. And when I was asking you about like how you, you know, your evolution of how you got here, you kind of took it to the wrong direction that I was thinking. Yeah, yeah. But when you said that, you revealed something that I was super interested in. And that is, you said that it was like this and luck. So you mentioned that luck was a part of it.

Yeah. And I want to talk about that because someone who has, the pedigree, I guess, that you have. Yeah. And here we are talking about street smarts versus academic. Yeah, yeah. And emotional intelligence versus IQ. Yeah.

Here you are, like, people listening, if they want to get into Harvard or teach at Harvard, you said it was luck. So why, what played on your, on your team to besides you? Could you also said you had social equity over there too? Yes, yes. I mean, it's a combination of things, right? Like, I do think for sure luck. Like, there are so many people that could be in my job that there is a certain point where,

look, and I see it now being on this side of it where we interview people and, you know, someone's having a one really influential prof is having a really grouchy day and is like asking grouchy questions that are making the person stumble and then all the junior people, nobody wants to hire them because of this, right? Because someone had a bad, like, right? So fluky things like that. So that's a real thing. But now, now that I'm a senior person, I'm like, how do I assert myself and stop that from happening, right?

Right. But that's a whole other topic. But I think, so that's what I mean. There is a certain element of luck. But I also think, when I think more deeply about what you're pointing out, I think that you can create your own luck too. And I've been lucky like the gene luck, right? Like I'm lucky. My parents are healthy. My parents, right? That's lucky. I don't know. I couldn't control my genes. So that's luck for sure. I don't take for granted. But then there's also reading the room. the street smarts of how you get people to do things, how you get people to help. That sounds Machiavellian. I don't mean it that way. But like, no, but it's actually, but how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you get people to do stuff? So how did you do it? So I want to know, and be honest. Right. So there's lots of, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we are. I'm asking you to overshare. For sure. So I, my, if we go back to grad school, my PhD advisor was like just a fat, he's alive. He's in the past. He's fat, did you say? No, no.

No, he was as if he's dead. He's not dead. Hi, George. But he is a brilliant and super creative person. He is extremely, I would say this to his face. He's extremely difficult to work with. Like, so many students that are epically genius, like way higher IQ than me have failed with him. And so I knew this. And I, what I did, like, small things can make a big difference. For example, I stuck my neck out or insisted or assertively act. asked to have the office that was right beside his office. Like there was two possible offices that could have been in. And so when I needed a take on him, I'm not going to like email him. I go into, hey, George, I have a question for you. Like, quick question, right? And so you kind of learn how this person works. And it's reading the room. It's like, okay, he doesn't like being interrupted at this time, but this time is a great time. Like, he hated being interrupted if he was walking on the way to something. But like if he was settling in the morning after he biked it, like, now I just sound creepy that I know all this about him. But I think it's like,

Learning these things. Yeah, learning, being observant and helping people to help you in a way at the right times and understanding that you're not, you're not their, like he has a family, he's got much more important research, you know, and it's not about you. But if you want something to happen, you kind of have to make it happen. I love that. So then what happens? So then you got to know George because you were at your desk beside you. Right, right. Got to know him. Yeah. And you kind of learned his quirks and personality. Right, right. Love it. Right. Then what? Right. And then, I mean, I worked. I work. worked super hard. I worked my hiny off. I'm taking that, like, that's an obvious. Right, right. That kind of goes. That's a given. But what are the, like, what is the, like, the cheat sheet, the Cole's notes? Yeah, like what makes you who work super hard different than the other person who works super hard? Yeah. Right. Saviness, I think, is really, you know, and I never thought of myself as savvy,

but some of my, I have these very dear girlfriends, Pittsburgh sisters, grad school friends. We live all over the place now. And they said, last, you're, you're the savvy one. You're the And I'm like, I'm not strategic so negative and schemy. And they're like, no, you're not scheming. You're just like, you have street smarts. I don't know where I got it from. But now I'm trying to now like digest some like other other ways of, you know what's interesting. Oh, like another one would be, which is not a comfortable, it's not comfortable at all.

You have to do really uncomfortable things and force yourself to do them. So one of the things was when I was practicing basically my pitch on the job market, my pitch of what my research is about, I went to the meanest, grumpiest, most skeptical faculty members that I was most intimidated by, and I was like, please grill me on this. And I probably even cried during a couple of them. But it was like, that's what you need. You need like someone to like, you need the interview, you need the practice to be harder than the performance, right? And you also trained yourself for this ballet. Yeah, right. That's why I find it's very interesting. Like I believe that how you do one thing is how you do everything. 100%. 100%.

And you are ready, you are primed in a different way to do this. So like, you know, I did this, I did this talk that it's not out yet. Maybe by the time this podcast is out, it will be out. And it was about like how when you have some type of physical activity that you take seriously fitness of some form of sport, it like propels you in success in every other way of your life. Because it teaches you these fundamental life skills that you can't get anywhere else. And so it teaches you this. And so it teaches you this. like enormous amount of confidence. Yeah. Discipline. Self efficacy. Self efficacy is like in the top two. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The that to kind of like I can do hard things and I'm going to work my I'm going to work my ass off and I don't care about like I know I can do it. That gave me goosebumps.

Right? Like the belief in yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And so right away when I saw your bio, I knew when I saw more like trained ballet, you know, ballerina, I'm like, okay, no wonder she's going to be a Harvard professor. Was it because of your, not because of your pedigree in school. I didn't even know where you went to school. Yeah. But I knew right off the bat that that would, what you learned in that foundation was going to be propelling you and everything else.

Yeah. And like you said, it like you were, you knew that you had it, like, you were going to like figure it out and like make it happen for yourself. Yeah. By doing whatever it needed to be done. Yeah. That's interesting. And I guess now reflecting on it like failure wasn't an option.

Like I wasn't like, it wasn't like, it wasn't like. some people drop out. Like, it wasn't on top of my, I'm like, this is, I'm just, I'm going to do it. Right. Like, it's going to happen. And also, if you failed, you had enough self-efficacy and confidence that you would pick yourself up again. Yeah, I mean, there was a million failures along the way. Like, failure fest, for sure. Failure fest. But where else did you apply besides Harvard? I apply. Oh, yeah. So I applied super broadly. I applied to 80 schools. And you got it, but why, I mean. I know, it's, randomness. Like, it's, um, the academia is so weird on how people make decisions. But it's like the Wizard of Oz though, right? I know. It's like nobody sees

the wizard. No, because nobody, people think, oh, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world to do. And probably whatever happened in your path, you're probably like, actually, like this Joe Blow or like the guy who made a decision wasn't that, you know what I mean? Wasn't what people expect. Right. Right. Right. Right. I just find this very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're also a Canadian girl, went to Waterloo. Like, it's very, there's a lot of like things that you're saying that I, I can, like, resonate with. Yeah. It's, yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you find, so for you, what's it like, I mean, Canadian girl in L.A. and because you are super nice, agreeable, like, full-fledged Canadian. Do you find it makes you vulnerable to being, like, taken advantage of? Yeah. I'm partly

agreeable, though. But you're not agree. Well, I mean, I would say, you're, you're, you're comfortable with being contrarian, which is great. I'm comfortable about being contrarian, but it's because I have a lot. I've, I, I, it's a self-efficacy. And I have a lot of confidence in, like, who I am and what I'm saying. Yeah. Because of experience. Not because I'm being pompous or erroneous in any way. But it's like experience and, like repetition has given me the confidence. You also have a way of saying straight shooting. It's actually you respect, you show that you respect the person by straight shooting. And being honest. You're like, I know you can take it that I don't buy this or whatever. Right. Yeah. I also think like kind of with your over

sharing message, you know, I think it's really important if you really want to, like, connect with somebody again to like, that's where I think authenticity is really important. When you're having a conversation and you're trying to connect to somebody in a real way, you've got to be honest with like, where you stand. And you can do it in a kind or and more polite way. You don't have to be an asshole about doing it. Being authentic is not, I have such a, I've zero tolerance for jerks, like zero tolerance. Like if I was being an ass and if I was being an asshole, maybe you would tell me I was. But like, I don't think just because I disagree with somebody that that makes me not at all a bad person or rude. No. I think it's rude if I just sit here and nod, yes, yes, yes. And then this whole experience would be fake and phony. Right. Totally. I don't want that. Right. Nobody wants that. But there are people who do want it. Right. And they're not. But then you know what? Then they're not my people. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure. I'm sure. I think the thing is I'm okay with not being liked by everybody.

That is like, I think a key life hack is once you're comfortable, realizing, I mean, I only realized that probably like three years ago that like not everyone's going to like me. And I don't care. And that's fine, right? It's a problem if everyone likes me. I think exactly. I was going to say, if everyone likes me, I'm doing something wrong. Yeah.

It's just like in a negotiation where if you always get what you want, then you're not asking for enough. You got to fail sometimes. It's like if you're doing push-ups, then you never fail. Like, you're not going to get stronger. Well, right. If you always do the same 20 pushups day in, day out, guess what happens?

You're not getting any stronger. You're not really like changing it. You're not growing. You're just doing the same thing because it's what you're comfortable doing. But there are a lot of people who like are really afraid of conflict. And, but that's not being, like, that's not even conflict. It's just like having a, it's being a grown up. It's being a grown up.

It's being a grown. But I feel like we're in a place in society where any type of, you know, like dynamic where there's disagreement, it ends up being extremely polarizing. And I, then automatically I hate you and you hate me. It's personalized. Why? Just because I disagree with you? I know. It's, it's so, it's so, so many things, maddening, saddening, excruciating, frustrating. Like, it's, it impedes growth. It's, and it makes life uninteresting. It does. Like, why? I totally agree. But being Canadian, like you were asking me, yeah, that's what I want to know. Am I going to be taken advantage of? How do you, asking for a friend?

Yeah, I ask you for a friend. I think that. I think that. I think that over my, I think that, yeah, to be honest with you, I think that I lead with how I can like help someone and give, and I give a lot of things. Yeah. Like I give a lot of things for free or I give people this or I give them contacts or I give them help. Yeah. And is it, it's probably not reciprocate. Like I would say it gets reciprocated maybe 10% of the time. Yeah. But like I'm not going to change my core value system and who I am because of other people. You're not doing it to reciprocate. I'm not even doing, I'm just doing, because that's who I am. Yeah.

But what, so how do you then manage, I don't love the word boundary, but like, how do you manage, like, you know, you have to, you also have to protect your nest and your family and your life and you're, like, you can't just give everything. A hundred percent. Yeah. But I am, I have problems with boundaries in the sense that if I like you, I'll like, and like, I do take people too often. I'm, I guess I could be slightly naive at the beginning if I like somebody.

Yeah. And then be disappointed. Right, right. But I've learned that just to be kind of like the price of admission. Yeah. Yeah. Because that way I still am open to when I meet someone who's extraordinary. And like I have a great relationship with them.

I've met some extraordinary people. I've had extraordinary opportunities because I didn't change the core essence of who I am. Completely. By leading with how I play. Even though I got and I do get disappointed very, very often. I also try to keep things in perspective. Like I don't only care. As long as my kids are healthy.

I know. They are. You know what it mean? Right. Like as long as they're fine, like, everything else. Who's like, who's like dissing me or like talks shit about me or like, doesn't help me or doesn't respond back to like whatever it is or someone makes me an empty promise. Yeah.

All right. Like I'm kind of used to that. Yeah. I also live in L.A. Yeah. And I'm playing in a world that's a lot of bullshit and nonsense and pop and circumstance. So I'm used to a lot of this nonsense. I've been doing it for so long in different iterations.

Now it's a podcast. before it was, you know, a lot of different things. And like, I still isn't entrepreneurship. I work a lot with, like, founders. And I work a lot with brands. And I work a lot with, like, entertainment things and books. Very cool. But, like, at the same time, it's like, people are people.

And you're going to, like, find all sorts. L.A. or at this level, you're going to find all sorts. Yeah. But I will say this. I think that water does find its level. And you do eventually gravitate to people that you're similar to. Yeah, I'm with you. And so I do have, amongst all that stuff, I have, like I said, I have a lot of great people around me who are really good in quality. And I tend to forget about all the shitty

people I've met along the way. Right? Because it just like doesn't matter to the end of the day. Yeah, totally. You're asking because, for a friend, of course, is your friend having a problem with, like, navigating a lot of this? Um, so she is, yeah, like, I think it's hard because the, the boundary of, like, wanting to give. Now it just sounds like an extended humble brain, which is not my intention. No, no, I understand. But, you know, and like the, when I connect with someone, I'm like, yay, like, it just feels so good and you just, like, you want to be besties. And, right, right, right. And so, but I love, I have learned, though, to, this is going to sound weird, but, like, massively lower my expectations. I think the key to happiness is just

having extremely low expectations. And then you're all, I know, it sounds like DeVetus, but it's like, it's so helpful because it's like, and doing things also not to please people, because if you're doing something to please someone, then you're so vulnerable because then if the person like doesn't react, then you're, you're crushed. But like, no, I'm helping you write this article. I'm mentoring you, doctoral student, like my version of how I help. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I like you and I want to nurture you and I enjoy this, right? And so I do agree with you that the nicies find the nicies in the end. Yeah, you do. I find like I have, I think there's a couple things that you said that are really interesting. The first thing is the niceties find the niceties. That's a nice way of putting it. But I also think the low expectation is a massive one. 100%.

Because I think that's where we get ourselves into trouble. Yeah. When we expect others to be like you, like to act like Hawaii. Right. There's been a lot of scenarios. was one very recent one that's like gutterly killed me because I expected someone to act in the same way I would have acted. Yeah. And they didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And because I was not expecting. Yep. I hate that behavior. It's so upsetting. It's really like hit me in my gut. Were they

close to you? Very. Yeah. And that was a surprise to me. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that having unrealistic expectations, not knowing someone as someone is, someone as well as you think you know them or being like you got to keep your eyes open and never never just expect people to do what you would do. Yes. Because that's when you become so disappointed. Right, right. And that's where like revealing, asking questions, learning about others, it's really made me appreciate that more that like we walk around the world thinking implicitly that everybody is like us. And then when you ask people and learn more, you're like, oh, no, they're not. And that's okay. They have a different set of goals and motives. And it's interesting.

I had two salient experiences have come to mind of what you were saying, where one of them is this idea of how, this is a motto, my family motto, it's nice to be nice. My husband makes fun to me for because he's nice, but he's like, he's got an edge to him. And so I'm often having to, it's nice to be nice. Like, tip the Uber driver. What does he do, your husband? He's a consultant. Okay, for who?

Like McKinsey? PWC. But he was a professional athlete, which soccer player, which is like, so that we're like very like sympathetico. But he, I don't know, but I also, he's like super reserved. And the thing, like after he read this, I was so nervous for him to read the book because, you know, I have stuff about us. And he's like, when we're at dinner, we'll be talking about something banal. And he's like in hushed voices. Like he's like super.

And he said, I love this book so much. Don't change anything about it. I need to open up more. and he's been like experimenting more. But yeah, so he's, and also being a little warmer. I know now that I've faded him as a total jerk, but he's not. He's amazing. I do, sometimes I wonder if he, I know this is, I have asked him if he's a spy.

And he did not, he dodged it. He's so observant. He always knows where everyone is, where everyone, like he's like super city. It's like hypervigilance. But anyways, that's a weird tangent. But the thing I was going to, and now that I said, he's, I never get home soon to protect him. He's out. It's cover's blown. Sorry, Colley. But. Bye. Yeah, yeah. So this idea about like, it's nice to be nice and like you do nice things because you genuinely want to. And so I think something that really gets in the way that people think is competing, like achievement and being nice, like the idea of like, I think people walk around implicitly often thinking. like it's a zero-sum world and like my my achievement is at your expense, especially like at Harvard

when I was starting and teaching is really grueling teaching there. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I did not reveal that to my students. And we'd have these meetings, these teaching group meetings, we were all teaching more or less the same thing to different students. And there was another professor there who, and the idea behind these meetings is to share ideas on how to do this, because we all can get high teaching evaluations, right? Like, if I get a high one, it doesn't mean you get a low one. It's not zero sum. But yet there was this one colleague who, more frequently than chance, he'd be like,

he would be tight-lipped during these meetings. And then the beginning of the next meeting when we'd review last week, he'd be like, oh, my God, I came up with this amazing framework of how to make sense of this and how to teach this thing. But I literally came up with it on the way to class. So, like, that's why I didn't share it. And it just is like, and I think that. That is actually, that is, even if he was purely interested in his own payout, which some people are, I think it's still misguided because when you share your ideas with five other smart people, you get even better, right? And you've had a rep of explaining it, which makes you a better teacher. And so it was like the completely wrong mental model of like, I need to hoard my ideas. It's a zero-sum world. You know, I don't know for sure, but it was like very suspicious, right? And so it's like the wrong mental model. So for sure we get.

burn sometimes for sure. Right. So like this whole, I love that the cost of entry, though. Like, it's worth it. It is the cost of entry. But I was going to say competition is a whole other thing, right? Yeah. Because people. I'm super competitive. So I'm super competitive too, but, or and, as you'd like to say, God. Yes, and. Yes. And I'm not competitive with women because they're women. I'm competitive against myself. I don't compete. Like, I don't. Right. Oh, for sure. Oh, my gosh, that put a light on. Like, when I'm at the gym and I'm like, I'm doing burpees. like not because I want to do more than you, because I want to get the effing burpees. Exactly. I don't do a minute of burpees. I don't care what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah. How successful you are or how much of a failure you are doesn't doesn't like doesn't change my life whatsoever. Yeah. I've always felt that way. So like if I'm with like, you know, like if I'm sitting with the most, the most beautiful girl in the world, I'm not like, oh my God, I'm so this and I feel this way. Like I don't. I'm like, great. I'm like, I'm like, wow, look how beautiful you are. Look how great you, like your body's in me. Like, it's more of a, I think it's much more of it, like, aspiring or inspiring or I don't care. Look how smart you're like, I'm not that way. Yeah.

Why I'm bringing this up. Yeah. And the competitive state is, unfortunately, a lot of women are very competitive with other women, with women. And I think there's this whole, this whole lie about like women empowerment, like women helping women and all these things. Yeah. Women help women when they are basically not as great as them or not as smart as them or not as successful as them, not as threatening to them. So that's my theory on this is under fundamental insecurity of like if you are are not fully comfortable in your shoes in your skin, then you will be threatened

by someone. There's always someone who is more beautiful, more smart, more. There's always, more successful, more everything. Like there's enough to go. I think the mentality is like, you know, there's enough success or there's enough whatever to go around. For everyone. You don't have to hoard it by just like thinking that like that to me is a very, very myopic, terrible way to lose. Actually, you lose that way. I agree.

I agree. But you can't change human nature. Right. So I was curious as you were talking how, because I think a lot of people are not like that, your idea of like it's competitive about yourself and not again. And you've always been that. Like, I'm curious why, how you developed in that way or if you have a theory. on that. It's interesting.

I feel, whose podcast is this? I think it's like a Lord, I think that like I never, I never really thought of myself as anything more than average, right? And so everything that I've achieved or God or became is because I feel like I worked really hard at it, right? Like I didn't think of myself as being exceptionally smart, exceptionally beautiful, whatever. whatever it is. So like what I did was I took what I had and optimized it the best I knew how by working really freaking hard. Yeah, executing. And executing and learning all these different strategies and habits and routines and whatever it is just to kind of enhance whatever I have.

And so it came from the same thing I said earlier, which was self-efficacy. Like seeing myself, right. Transform myself. Right. Because, you know, someone else does. it for me. It's because I did it for myself and I didn't do any crazy thing. It wasn't like I went and got plastic surgery. It wasn't like, so anything I have is because I, it's like hard work. You know, like I'm fit because I actually work out like a fee, right? Not because I'm taking something and I'm doing this or I'm doing that, right? Like, whatever my face is, it's, going to be what my face is. I'm not getting any crazy surgeries because I don't like, like, I've learned to like really love who I am and be happy with what it is.

whatever, good and bad. And all, I've kind of made a decision much very early on that like, I'm going to do the best I can with what I have, but I'm not going to like, I'm not going to force or fake or be something that I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you have a really strong sense of self, yes. Everything else coming into your life, like I'm, I'm okay with it. Right. And I want everyone else to be the best version of themselves without feeling that they have to like alter something. Exactly. Like, so I'm a big champion for guys and or girls, whoever I think like are good humans, you know? But a lot of women just don't think that way, right? And they see everybody as like a threat or a competition or, and so like I've seen it all the time. Like women always, like I said,

say, oh, I want women champion. And then like, yeah, they're not helping. They help you until you, until you kind of surpass them, right? Until you become more successful or more fit or more this or more. I see this daily. Young people and old people. People are people. It doesn't change. Like you think because you mature, you change, and people change. They don't change. In fact, actually, it gets worse. They just maybe hide it a little bit better. Yeah, you got to work with what you have for sure. That's just the way it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. I, um, one of my best friends is, um, an identical twin and she, she's a colleague at Harvard. And so like we have all the ingredients of rivalry. Like, we're a similar age. Yeah. We're both

competitive. We're both like have this amazing job, like all these things. And, and she said to me once, and then we had this professor who was talking about rival, were you giving a talk? And we're just like making eyes the whole time. We're like, is this us? Is this us? Are we rival? Are we rivals? Yeah. And then she said, we talked about it afterwards and she said, she said, so good. She studies conversation. She said, why aren't we rivals? Isn't that such a great way in, right? It's like presuming the good thing, right? And. And then we started talking about it. And because we have all the elements of it. And I said to her, I think you led this because you have this experience of she, it's so interesting talking about

the experience of being an identical twin. She's like, I am a communal, like, I was born as a communal person caring about this other human. And so she just doesn't see things like she views giving as like it's core to wanting to help. And she's also extremely confident. And she's also extremely confident, extremely self-assured, right? Her mother is amazing. Her mother was a school, like a guidance counselor. Back in the day, like, back in the day, you know, women, they didn't get amazing huge Jesus and psychologists, right? So she had the, like, most EQ thing. And you talked to her mom. She's amazing. So she had like, she had like great upbringing and stuff. And she's super, super confident. She's so confident in her skin. And she's, she's happy. She realizes that often

success begets success, like helping someone feels good. Now I just sound cheesy, but it's true. Like, and you've got to live it. No, no, no, no. Success begins success. I totally understand what you're saying. And I agree with everything about that stuff. And like, I think that being, I think wanting other people to win helps you win.

Yeah. I really do believe that. I believe it too. Because I just don't, like, even if it doesn't happen, like, I think that like life is long. It may not happen just right off the bat with that one person. Yeah. But like everything is a ripple. It's a long game.

And there's a ripple effect. Right? So maybe it won't happen with this one. But like, you know, I know you don't really probably know me very well, but I did a whole thing. I did my first TED talk. I've done three. But my first one was on being bold and asking for what you want in life.

Oh, yeah. I've watched that. Oh, you have? Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. And this whole thing is like this whole like make 10 attempts at whatever you want most in life. And the thing is what it teaches you is not just to, you know, to get comfortable with failing,

but you making those attempts, either you're going to get that thing you want or another opportunity will present itself. Yes. Yes. So stuff leads to stuff. Stuff leads to stuff, right? But you're just like kind of like kind of doing it. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Kind of like throwing a lot of shit at the wall. Eventually something is going to stick. Completely. And there's nothing wrong with thinking that way. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. No opportunity is going to happen with you sitting on your couch watching Netflix. Right. Do it. It's like making a shot. Making the shot. Completely. Do it.

And I get, so the Harvard version of this is as I get students who come in, you know, needing to do research, wanting to do research, that's like how we succeed. And they're just perseverating. They're like, I don't know what, what, like I'll start saying crazy ideas. Why don't you study this, this to try to get them to be comfortable brainstorming. And they're like, but that's not in my wheelhouse. That's not like my core. And I'm like, who cares? What? Well, like, yeah, who cares? Like, you don't even have it. Like, I don't even have a core. Like, what are you interested in? Just do it. Let's get some data. Let's get the survey up right now. Let's do it. Not perfect progress. Right. Don't present. Stop persevering.

and do something. See, but that's where people, so this is what my whole talk is about, is the fact that we are our own worst enemies and overthinking is analysis paralysis. And I use you. Welcome to academia. Well, I use you in my whole talk because I say the people who are the smartest, right? Exactly. Are not the ones who win. The people who win are the boldest. Because they can't, they're like, but the zuzuzzoz, they're thinking every outcome that can go wrong, their negativity. What happens at this? What happens at that? It's paralyzing. Yeah. It's paralyzed. But if you're just bold, which is what my whole thing is, is that like, you're just going to do it. And if you fail, all right, if it doesn't work, okay.

Like, that's why I was saying earlier, like me being average growing up, work to my advantage. Because the more average I was, the more like if I failed, no one cared. Yeah, you're not threatening. I can keep on trying. And as I kept on trying, I was sharpening my tool. And I was getting better and faster and stronger and smarter than all these people who were, like, were at the time so much more like smarter, pretty fast, whatever it was, right? Right, right, right. So that's my point. It's like, you can't count yourself out without even, like, making the attempts. Right.

And you're going to, like, don't you, did you, have you heard that thing, like, it's the C students or the A plus students working for the C students. Yeah, yeah. That makes, that, because they're, they don't have the grit, the, like, they had to, like, learn the resourcefulness and the grit to get through. The wily resourcefulness. Yeah, totally. Another thing came to mind as, it came to mind as it to my now and earlier about like being average and and thinking when you're like, what are the, how did you get to where you are? I, on the first day of grad school, we did this exercise and and my naivete too of like, we're all going to be friends and happy. It's a cohort. Let's cuddle. And so he, the professor, he, we are this cohort of like six new students and small.

and he slaps a $20 bill in front of each of us, and he has us all do, puts us in a prisoner's dilemma, which essentially basically you're with someone else. I'm paired up with this person. We've just started. We've just met each other. And there's $20 in between us. And we each have to make a decision, split or steal.

If we both say, and it's simultaneous reveal, it's one, two, three, what are you going to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. And so if we both play split, then we split it down, even Stephen, 10 bucks each. Okay. So if we both cooperate. But the problem is there's a temptation to be selfish and defect where by that I mean, if you play steel and the other person, you somehow manage to convince them to play split. So if I play steel and you play split,

you're a generous trusting and I'm not. I play steel. I get all 20 bucks. And then if both of us play steel, none of us get anything. Okay. So the thing that's tricky is you want to each get $10. That's like a really nice outcome. But you've always got the, if you, if I know that you're going to play split, then I'll be tempted to be like backstab and play steel so that I can get more money. Right? And so this is like a very, it's been studied ad nauseum in economics and beyond. There's like a correct answer to this. The correct rational and rational in quotes. The correct answer is to in this situation to play steel, which nobody gets anything. That's like the correct answer. And I knew, I did know this coming in like that, that,

That is the correct answer. But in my mind, I'm like, but this is a bonding exercise. Yes, exactly. So what do I play? I play split. I cooperate. Everyone else play spit. I look like play steel. I play like, look like such a loser. My classmate and was the only one to walk away with money because everyone else played steel and I played split. And I looked like the fool. Like I looked like a complete idiot on the first day of grad school. But and I felt I was ruminating afterwards, even though in the time I'm like, we're doing this, right guys? But like my naivete burned me. But then I was like, but did it burn me? Because, you know, when we were doing, we, I didn't get through grad school without help, right? And, and, and, like, I'm disarming. I was

disarming. Nobody was threatened by the dumb girl. Exactly. So that's a hundred percent true. So it's like, they, they helped me. Yeah. I helped them too, I think. I taught them psychology. Right. And also, though, they weren't threatened by you. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there can be, like, not to be like hyper strategic about it, but just like reflecting back. I think there is something to that. I think there's a lot to that. Yeah. So I was going to include when you were asking me earlier, I was super disarming, right? Yes. Because I wasn't a threat. Yes. And that worked to my advantage. Yes. Yes. And I think that like I'm a big believer in making, in using every tool you have in your toolbox to kind of go after what you want. Yeah. I just do. I completely.

And I don't think that's taking away from someone else's toolbox. Right. Right. And so if you can be, if you're disarming somebody and you're not threatening, God bless you. Right. I also don't think it's a bad thing to be an opportunist. No, not at all. As long as you're like sincere and not like.

But what's wrong with it? Why can't you seek and why can't you, why can't you take advantage of an opportunity and seize the day or seize the opportunity? You'd be a fool not to. Right. If it's like, oh, you're such an opportunist. Okay, you should be too. I think because sometimes when one says that, people hear like at someone else's expense.

That's not what you're saying at all. Exactly. And that's exactly. I had this whole back and forth with this person I had like a falling out with, right? Not because of this, but one of the things that was, look, what we're talking about is like, I believe that people should take advantage of every opportunity. that comes their way. And they took it like, well, at who's expense? No expense. Right. You're the one, you're the one who's adding on to that sentence, you know, at someone else's expense, which makes me think

that's your personality. Yeah, yeah. Me, I'm just saying life is like, it's like, it's basically a zero-zero game, right? Not like a zero-sum game. I'm not, I'm not competing against you and vice. I don't really care. But whatever opportunity is coming my way, I'm going to try to seize it. And you should too. And that's what my point was earlier. Like, you've got to be resourceful. You've got to be ready. You've got to make everything work for your advantage. Right. Not at the expense of anybody else. And a core of that is like understanding you and like what your secret capabilities are. Like what unlocking your potential and trying by doing things. You learn like, ooh, I'm really, really savvy and really good at this. And I'm not so great at that. Right. So do more of the good thing. And mitigate the bad thing. And

maybe not do so much of that thing. I mean, by what we're talking. We're like, I know. Yeah. We're so off. How long it's been? Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentus 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega-3 combo for months now, and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone.

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Sure. Well, we can like wrap this. Okay. Although, I guess we talked about leaders. We talked about actually confidence flexors. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about confidence flexors. Yeah.

Yeah. And I really like the Shark Tank example because I watch Shark Tank. I love Shark Tank. I love it too. I love it. Mr. Wonderful. Mr. Wonderful. Oh, my God.

They're all great. I love, I know, they all have their unique and they work so well together. I love them. They work really great together. Are they actually, is that there, I feel like it's so authentic, like it's their, maybe an exaggerated version, but like it feels, it rings. They feel authentic. They do.

By the ones I've, I've had on, I think they're great. I love, Rob's Canadian. Well, he's more like he's not, like his, no, he's from somewhere else. Where is he from? Not Ukraine. No, no, gosh, I should stop talking. Croatian. No, no, no, no.

That sounds closer. No. Bosnia? Not Poscania. Not Posnia. Got this. Got this. Not Pawsia. Where is he from? Tip of my tongue. Croatia, I says. Oh, you got it. You nailed it. I don't think that's right. Is it? Okay, maybe it is.

But then he immigrated to Canada. So I feel he's one of us. Yeah, yeah. And he has the Canadian, you can hear the about. Yeah, yeah. He's going to. My point is I really liked it. And I like the example that you use. And I believe, whenever I watch the show, I notice that the ones who are overly confident on the show. And dismissive. Of like these superstar experts. But, but in general, like, I feel like they don't like the people who are overly confident.

For sure. They want the people who are more like, like, kind of like have that like feeling of they admit when they're wrong. Yeah. What would you call that? Yeah. Real. Humility.

Humility. Humility is a word. And that takes confidence. That's like you have to be actually be confident to admit that you don't know. 100%. Like that I think overly confident is really unattractive. Yeah. I agree completely, completely.

And yet, it is amazing in the classroom when people use, maybe not for, I don't know, for judging character, but what I see, maybe I don't know why, maybe they're younger MBA students, but people confuse confidence with competence and knowledge. Yeah, there's lots of studies on that. Right? Like, so it's in the classroom all the time. There will be someone who says, like, something. thing like word salad, but eloquent and super confident, but like zero substance. And people are

like enthralled. And then someone who's less, much less confident and puts up their hand and not in a loud voice and they're like crazy smart. And I'm like, yes. So, so then I'm trying to, I try to, in less overt ways, because if you're overt about it, then it's not good. But I try to echo the person who like repeats. So what Suzanne is saying is it sounds like, right, and kind of ignore the, But it is, but the, it's, it's frustrating to me that people confuse the two so much. Well, confidence and confidence are, the people who are confident, I feel, are usually they're usually, they're usually, they're usually the most competent. They often go together.

But a lot of times, the most confident, a lot of, I've seen in my own history, that you could be a really good orator and fake confidence. Completely. And be a complete nini in real life. Yes. You know? And I think that that happens a lot also. And so I think this goes under this whole umbrella of like likability, right?

Yeah, yeah. I think that the people who are the most likable may not necessarily be the most competent. Yes. But they have these other qualities that draw you in. Right. Yeah. And I was going to say, there's a whole study that's on how, you know, VCs give money to the most likable, not necessarily the best business fund. And that's not wrong. Right?

Well, it's not wrong. But listen, if I'm giving someone $20 million, they need to be competent. I would like them to be competent. They need to be competent. Yeah. I mean, surely it's wrong sometimes. But I would say you would probably agree it's also wronged. Like, likeability does matter.

And when in terms of the person's ability to lead, being likable does matter. It matters more than anything else. Yeah. It's the most underrated superpower, I think that there is. Preach girl. Right? I do believe that to be true. Yeah.

We're like aggressively Canadian, right? Yeah, exactly. We're super, super Canadian. But the confidence flexing, sorry, I went on a tangent there. So the confidence flexing, it's like our instinct is often to project confidence when we are not actually, when we feel really weak. And it doesn't really work. A funny example of it. The thing is, it's sneaky because it kind of creeps up on us when I was, I'm.

not a good driver. Don't ever get in a car with me. Oh, God. When I was taking my, yeah, I know, I know. Well, my husband almost always drive. I know he's like, oh, the patriarchy, but definitely he's a good spy driver. But yeah, so when I was taking my driver's test, this is so absurd, but it illustrates the point. I took a left-hand turn and I neglected to look for a pedestrian.

and the adjudicator said, who had the right of way there? And I knew that the passenger pedestrian did, but I just confidently was like, I did, like as if that erases everything, right? It's like as if you, and so that's an absurd example, but it shows how, like, wrong this is, but how we often default to it, right? They all do, because I think it's at a defensiveness. Yeah, defensiveness. It's totally, it's totally brought them on by defensiveness, yeah.

And so what is your point, though? Was there a point? Oh, I was just explaining what a conflict sex is. Oh, okay, okay. Like, is there another point? Okay. Yeah, it's not effective. Okay.

It's not effective. It's not effective. Not effective. Not a good luck. I don't know. It's late in the day. I know. I didn't have caffeine in mine. I know.

Exactly. I have way too much caffeine. But, okay, Leslie, we've got to wrap this. So where do people find you? Oh, they can find me online. My website is Dr. Lesliejohn.com. or on Instagram or LinkedIn, profleselyjohn.com. Okay, Prof. Leslie John.

Okay. The book is called Revealing, and it is about the underrated power of oversharing. Yes. You're like, or is it the overrated power of oversharing? Exactly. I read it and find out. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

It's been so wonderful. So fun. Yay. Bye guys. Bye.