Habits and Hustle - Episode 553: Ken Rideout: How The World's Fastest 50-Year-Old Marathoner Traded His Darkest Habits for Incredible Strength

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

The same intensity that can destroy your life is the same intensity that can rebuild it. The difference isn't the person, it's the direction. Ken Rideout is the world's fastest marathoner over 50, a former prison guard, a former addict, and someone who has never once in his life waited to feel ready before making a move. He spent 10 years taking 50 Percocets a day while making millions on Wall Street and hiding it from everyone around him, including his wife.  Today he runs 10 miles every single day, has won age groups at every world marathon major, and won a 155-mile desert ultra he signed up for with four weeks' notice and zero experience. In this episode, Ken gets into the real story behind what it took to trade his darkest habits for the discipline that made him a world champion. He also shares the one race he quit that rewired how he approaches everything, what he tells his kids about fear, and why having no process is the reason he keeps winning. If you have ever felt like your past, your struggles, or your lack of a plan disqualifies you from doing something extraordinary, this conversation will change how you see yourself. What's Discussed: (00:00) Who Ken Rideout is and why his story doesn't make sense on paper. (04:37) Working as a prison guard at 18 while his brother was an inmate. (07:03) The slap that got him fired and the better job that followed two days later. (15:24) How a routine prescription started a decade-long secret. (19:40) The night his wife found him on the floor. (27:25) Moving his family to LA with no safety net and a newborn. (28:01) Why running became the replacement, not the cure. (33:44) What "delusionally optimistic" actually looks like in practice. (36:05) The most underrated skill in business nobody talks about. (40:30) What Ken told his scared son at the baseball game. (41:01) Signing up for a 155-mile desert race with zero experience. (54:18) The marathon times that made the Wall Street Journal and New York Times take notice. (1:05:35) The one coaching change that shaved five minutes off his marathon. (1:10:22) The line about walking on water that stopped me in my tracks. (1:22:10) The race he quitted that he still carries with him to this day. (1:31:06) His daily routine and the supplements he swears by. (1:44:52) The status symbol that's available to anyone and costs nothing. Thank You to Our Sponsors!AirDoctor: Head to AirDoctorPro.com and use promo code HUSTLE to get up to $300 OFF today! AirDoctor comes with a 30-day money back guarantee, plus a 3-year warranty (an $84 value) FREE! Kion: Visit getkion.com/habits or 20% OFF Momentous: Ready to try supplements that actually do what they claim? Head to livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 35% OFF your first subscription.  Therasage: Visit Therasage.com and use code JEN to get 15% OFF your order. Your skin deserves this level of care. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code JEN at checkout. Prolon: Prolon is offering listeners 30% OFF sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use the code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Rho Nutrition: Go to RhoNutrition.com and try Rho's Liposomal Glutathione. Use code JEN20 for 20% OFF sitewide. Manna Vitality: Try it now by using the code Jennifer20 at mannavitality.com.  Find more from Jen Cohen:  Website: www.jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements Find more from Ken Rideout:  Website: https://www.thekenrideout.com/  Instagram: @ken_rideout YouTube: @ken_rideout Facebook: Ken Rideout TikTok: @Ken_Rideout X: @KenRideout_  Book: https://www.theothersideofhard.com/  Podcast: Rideout: The Other Side of Hard Find more from Ken Rideout’s Group: Website: https://www.rideout.group/  Instagram: @rideout.group

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. So on this podcast, Kim, what we do is we do a healthy performance shop before we start. And this is by Magic Mind. I'm scared. This one actually is like, I think it's like the Magic Mind Max, which is three times the caffeine. Can you handle that?

Let's go. I don't know. I'm scared. I've taken like three of these already today. You're talking to like a professional former drug addict. That's the idea of some extra caffeine doesn't exactly like make me start to sweat. That's ice cycling. That's true.

You told me we were going to smoke DMT, I'd be like, oh, my God. I'm so, I don't want to die again. You're right. So a little extra caffeine and a little lion's mane and a little Ashwaglanda's not going to really hurt anybody. Okay. Okay, here we go. Do it.

Wait, aren't you going to cheers me? And then I can't do the whole thing because I'm going to, I have had like four, but you should do it. We'll watch you do it. Oh, it tastes pretty good. It's good. Yeah. It's not like those other shots that you like to promote.

Very different. John, shot. Exactly. Okay, you guys, you are in for a treat. Ken Wright out as someone who literally is the epitome. Like, if you were to look up habits and hustle in like the, like on, you know, on chat GPT now or Google or Wikipedia, your face would be there because this guy is a crazy, like, he's a killer in all the good, the best ways. And his story is extremely aspirational, inspirational. and all the things.

And I met him, well, actually, I saw him at one of these Jesse Itzler running events. Hell on the Hill. Is that what it's called? And he was like really kind of like just like kind of like in focus mode. And he basically didn't even look my way. But I looked your way. And four years later you're on this podcast. So anyway, Ken has a new book.

It's called Everything You Want is on the other side of hard. And I finally have you on this show. So thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. We actually even did a podcast before the podcast, which kind of happens when you like click with somebody. But can you kind of just give my audience a little bit of like a origin story, like who you are beyond what I just said? Like what, like what you kind of like who you are and where you started. Because it's pretty spectacular where you started and where you are right now. I'm going to give you the abbreviated version because there's a whole book of it right there. That's true. I'm originally from Boston. I grew up in the inner city. grew up in kind of a rough environment, rough childhood, a lot of abused, drug addiction, very hostile environment. But from my youngest age, I just remember feeling like I'm not supposed to be here.

I don't know how I ended up in this place in life. But I knew I wanted to get out of there. And I don't know why I didn't have role models or mentors necessarily that were pushing me towards going to college, getting and like working in a professional setting. like, you know, at that time, it was probably expected that you would have either like a blue-collar job, which I'm cool with, like, but that what the aspiration was to like get a job for the state or the city and like work for the sanitation department or the city doing like road work or, you know, maybe work at the prison, which is what I ended up doing.

I played, I was very athletic in the sense that I played a lot of sports. I played football and hockey in high school and then also in college, played two, NCAA sports. Neither one really well. And when I graduated from high school, I started working as a guard in a prison. And that was my first, or corrections officer. When I call it a guard, sometimes the prison community, the prison social media crowd attacks me for calling it. I got corrections officer. Why? Why? It's just like, it's not like, it's not, yeah. It's not PC, basically, is what you're saying? It's just, it's weird that people get hung up on some things like this. But I was a corrections officer. To me, it was, I was a prison guard. When you're 18, right?

Yes. For how long two years? I probably looked like I was 15. No, four years while I went to college. So I worked there full time in the summer and then a few nights a week while I was in school. And, you know, it was exactly what you would expect, like an aggressive environment and of very steep learning curve. But again, most of the people that I knew in there, prison's very segregated.

So I knew most of the white guys going in there. Matter of fact, one of the other corrections officers was a guy called Mickey Ward. They made a movie called The Fighter about him. Mark Wahlberg played him. And his brother, Dickie Eckland, was an inmate played by Christian Bale in the prison that we were both working at. And then eventually my stepfather had already been an inmate there. And my brother, who's 11 months younger, would end up being an inmate there multiple times. And my brother, just to give context as to how I grew up, my brother was 11 months younger growing up in the same environment, same exact conditions,

and never graduated high school, never had a real job, career criminal, in and out of prison, heroin addict, the whole nine yards. And so he ended up getting sentenced there shortly after I stopped working there. And so I worked there for four years, got out of college and moved to New York as a pharmaceutical sales rep for like six months. But I was playing in a men's hockey league in New York. I met a guy who was working in finance on a trading desk. And he got me a junior assistant trading job on a trading desk, like an institutional trading desk, like a real Wall Street trading desk. And it was everything that I wanted to do. It was aggressive.

It was like being in a sports locker room. It was hyper competitive. But I was also getting like hazed essentially and bullied, which is crazy because I was boxing for the New York Athletic Club. I wasn't like someone you would think would be bullied or picked on. And not that I was letting them, but they were trying to do that. And then eventually after a couple months working there, I slapped someone in the face after just too much of the bullshit.

And they fired me. And I was so naive. I didn't realize we had competitors. I didn't even. I mean, I was so happy they gave me two weeks. week severance. I didn't know anything about anything. I had never had a professional job. I mean, the pharmaceutical company, but I was like a remote sales rep out in the field. Like I worked from my home. And some of the industry traders heard what happened and they loved it. Some of the traders were like,

oh, this guy is crazy. I want him to be my sales coverage at this, at a, you know, trading, my sales coverage at a trading desk. So the big Enron trader would call into the trading desk and be like, hey, buy me this, sell that, and we would put these trades together and get, like, paid and exorbitant an amount of money. So after getting fired within two days, I had a job. I was making 40 grand. I had a job making 80 grand the next Monday, which was crazy to me because that was like more money than I could ever imagine at the time. This is in 1997-ish. Okay, can I stop? Because I've got millions of questions already. Sure. Because this is like your whole story, I mean, you've got to, guys, you have to read the book because it's, it's really, it's,

fantastic. But let's just start for the beginning because here you are working as a as a correction facilities officer, prison guard, whatever. Your brother was in jail. Your father. Like, you kind of like just skip around it like it's no big deal. Like, you know what I mean? And then you went to be a pharmaceutical rep. Like it, and you were like, it's just no big, like, how did you kind of, like, that's a very traumatic experience. Like, the fact that you even went to college, that to me is like something that you just kind of like, you know, blips skipped over. Can you just, describe what kind of environment you were living in? Like, where was your mom?

Like, what was your dad in jail for? Why was your brother in and out of jail? Why did you not take that same path? Like, there's so many things that you could have, like, done differently that would have taken you on a whole different trajectory. Yeah. Before becoming a pharmaceutical rep, you know? So I, my parents would have me when they were 19 and 20.

My mom was 19. My dad was 20. They were divorced, like, within a year after having me and my brother. Then my mother had a series of days. different boyfriends and then married this guy from Alabama who was much younger than her, so wasn't much older than me. I mean, he was obviously he was older. He was an adult, but he was like completely immature.

And they were like, he beat the shit out of me all the time. How old were you at this point? They got married when I was eight, so I was eight to 18. And then he was gone for a couple years when he went to prison. But he went to prison for like stealing credit cards and like, you know, using stolen credit cards. Like complete like nincompoop behavior, like knucklehead. And it's crazy.

It took him as long as it did to get caught. It took as long as it did for him to get caught. And then, so then he went to this prison called Billerica, House of Corrections. And they would beat you up constantly. Slapped the shit out of me. Yeah, like hit us with a belt. Yeah, it was crazy. And then I had a date.

He has a son with my mother. So I have a stepbrother who's eight years younger and who's now a drug addict and doesn't work. They're a mess. But I wanted, going to college was never like a, the thought of not going was never even in my mindset. I just knew that that was the next step of life. I didn't know why I knew that, but I just knew. And I wanted to keep playing sports. So when I went to college, it was easy to plan to go to college.

So I keep playing sports. That's all I worked. You worked like while you were in college. But how did you make money to get to college and how you have been students? I went to a state school. It wasn't very expensive. I went to crappy state school, Framingham State. I always call it the Harvard of Framingham, Massachusetts.

And, you know, it was not very expensive. And I paid for working in the prison, took a bunch of student loans. And it's crazy because I had all these student loans. But as soon as I got the new job in finance, I paid the money off in, like, two months. So did you, as a kid or like as a younger person, like a teenager or whatever, did you have big dreams, big aspirations? Because you grew up in an environment that didn't seem like that would be a normal, normal type of way to think.

Did you always have a different type of mindset? Did you have like some kind of, like you were playing sports? Did sports actually kind of like tweak the way you think or what had it like to me that's not normal what happened to you? All I wanted to do is play sports. So I wasn't worried about I wasn't even worried about what I was studying in college. I got to I got my freshman year of football a freshman year of college. I got that and I was playing football and a bunch of the like knuckleheads on the football team were like oh take sociology. That's not very challenging. And I was like oh okay and that's how I end up studying sociology. In hindsight, I would have went to the Naval Academy, studied business, got out, gone to Harvard and get an MBA. I wish I could do it all again. I would have made my life a lot easier.

And then when I got out of school for a year or two, I was still living in Boston. And when I, going into my junior year, I got cut from the hockey team because of my attitude. And I was like, just struggling, like being an adult. I had no, I had no, like, role models. I mean, I'm not making excuses. I was just lost. And I was, like, behaving like an asshole. And the coach was like, your attitude's terrible.

And I ignored several warnings and they were like, we don't need you. And I was like, oh my God, I'm screwed. Like I'm lost. But my grades were terrible. And when that happened, I also at that point was floundering socially and started doing cocaine. And then with all my buddies in Boston who were like literally like crazy people. And we would just go out, do cocaine. They would get into fights every single night.

It was like a, I mean, two of like my five best friends are dead from either drug addiction. or violence. Like, it was crazy. It's like it sounds hyperbolic to talk about it this way, but it was people who know me and know where I was like living, understand that that was very much a reality. So then you go to New York and now you're living, now you're a traitor. So when I get out of school, I was like, I got to get a job. I got to get into sales. And the last two years, I studied like a savage and got on the dean's list every year. Because I wasn't dumb. I was just lazy. I hated school. But once I focused, I was like, just like with running races, I was like, I'm going to out hustle everybody. And I got good grades.

and I graduated and I needed a job and a friend was doing pharmaceutical sales and he's like, my buddy is the sales manager that's looking for someone in New York. And I was like, I'll do that. And I mean, it was like $36,000. I had a rent apartment. By the time I paid all my bills the first six months, I had like $50 left over. I was like, how am I going to do this? And I was like using credit cards and surviving.

But for some reason, I had this insane delusional self-belief that I'm like, I'm going to figure this out before the money runs out, before I like really get too deep. I'll figure out the next move. So I was always like in a job, not a career. And I'm like, I'm going to figure it out. Met this kid in finance. And I saw all these guys working in finance at the gyms that I was training at because I was always exercising.

And I was like, these guys are dopes. If these guys are making money doing finance, that's what I need to be doing. Right. So that's how I end up in finance. And then I'm working on this trading desk and very quickly start establishing myself. It was like kind of like the law of a jungle there. Like you had to be aggressive. And I just.

Spoiler room kind of. Yeah, but we weren't talking to like retail investors. We weren't talking to like individuals. We were talking to institutions. You couldn't be like, no one was lying and stealing. Like you'd get, this was highly regulated, like legitimate finance. And so we were trading with Enron and Goldman Sachs. And like we weren't running people over.

No one was. But we were making a lot of money. And so when I get the new job making any of grant, now I'm covering Enron as my client. And I start making like hundreds of thousands of dollars. And within a year or two, I get hired by Kenner Fitzgerald. to go to London to run European and Asian commodities sales and trading for Canter. And now I'm making millions of dollars.

And I'm flying the Concord back and forth, New York to London. I've got a brand new Porsche at that time. Throughout all this, I'm suffering with this imposter syndrome and fraud complex. I'm like, they're gonna find out that I'm stupid and I shouldn't be here. And I like had no, on the surface, I had confidence.

But deep down, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm just figuring it out on the fly. Like, it was all happening so fast. I had an ankle surgery, prescribed some opioids, and I was like, see you later. I'm like, I'm the most confident person in the world. I'm good. I don't have any concerns. And that started like a 10-year, like 24-7 addiction to drugs.

But you were like a functional drug addict. No one ever knew that I was doing drugs. I mean, they probably thought I was a weirdo, but not on drugs. Like I even saw something like within your book, I think it must have been. When I was researching all of your stuff, like you were like, your wife had no idea. You got married. Did she even know you were a drug, you did,

that you even did drugs. My wife is very much like a straight lay square. Like she had never, she's never done any drugs in her life, like ever. She drinks, she like not excessively, but she'll have a drink,

but she's like completely naive. Like early in the relationship, we walked by someone smoking weed and she's like, is that weed? And I'm like, are you insane? Didn't you go to college? Like you don't know what weed is? She's like,

I didn't, for now, I didn't hang out with those people. I was in a sorority full of nerds. Like we didn't, she just didn't wasn't exposed. She's not an nerd. She's like, I mean, she played sports. She's into shit.

But she was just like naive to those kind of things. So, I mean, eventually she realized like something's up. But I was never like relishing in my addiction. I was always like, I got to stop these drugs, but I can't do it. I can't stop. It was like a physical. Like where were you in the career part? Like at what point, like what made you decide like to what made you start in the first place?

Like yeah, you were doing Coke and all the stuff when you were younger with your Stop doing coke when I moved to New York because I'm like, this is a losing proposition. But the oxycon, fentanyl, and all those things, like, they just made me feel good. And, and I didn't. What was your drug of choice? Opioes, like oxycontin, percocet, fentanyl, like, the stronger, the better. And I would take them in the morning, before I got to work, I'd take them at lunch and I'd take them at dinner. So I would take like 30 to 50 perc a set a day.

And this is when you were actually like making all these millions of dollars. Yes. Yes. And I had so much money. Like I had connections on the street. I'd buy like a whole prescription bottle of, you know, when you get the prescription filled and there's like a thousand pills and they put it in the bottle and then put the bottle back. Yeah. I had like shady guys that would sell the entire bottle. Like I don't know if they would steal it or how they'd get it. But I was the worst because I had means and I had and I was resourceful. So I would know how to connect with degenerates because I had to. grown up with these type of people.

And so I mean, I'd find connect, I had talk about it in the book. I found like a shady doctor in London. I had guys, doctors in Chinatown in New York. I could just go in, skip in front of the whole line of 100 people in his waiting room, give him 100 bucks to write a script for anything that I wanted. So it was like the worst scenario. And I couldn't stop.

I was physically addicted. When I would stop, I'd get physically sick like a guy withdrawing from heroin. So I kept like, and a couple times I did it. I like just white knuckled it. I just got sober and like locked myself in my bedroom It's just like, I'm just going to be sick until it's over, and then I'll emerge from this, like, death tomb. And I'm skipping around.

I'm fast-forwarding a bit, but eventually my wife and I get married. She knows I'm struggling this. I had used this other drug called subiotex, which is like methadone. It kind of helps you get off the opioids, but it's supposed to be just a transition, but people are on those things long term. And those become super addictive and just as hard to get off. So when we got mad, we adopted a daughter from Ethiopia after we got married and when we, when I realized like the clock that the runway is, I'm running out of runway. I have to do this now or never. And I was like, if I don't do this, I might kill myself because I can't live like this. I'm not a loser. I didn't want to be a loser, but I was behaving like one. And I had very high self-esteem before this happened. And now I was like destroying myself emotionally. And I went to an outpatient detox facility in New York and they gave me like some, a like, a like, I went through basically like a medically assisted detox where they gave me virulent to stay awake, Xanax to calm down at night and to sleep and ambient and blood pressure

medicine. And there's an important story in the book where I, my wife finds me on the floor unconscious in the middle of the night in our apartment, which is like this beautiful like glass high rise, like 50th floor, gorgeous views of the city. And I'm like basically living in hell. And she finds me in there and I just like come clean and tell her everything. that I'm trying to go through this one week detox. Because when the week is up, I can take this other drug.

I can get an injection of a drug called Vivitrol that's an opioid blocker so you cannot get high. If you take the drugs, it won't affect you. It basically occupies all the opioid receptors in your brain. So it's like a safeguard. But to take the Vivitrol, you have to be completely clean for a week, which most addicts can't do because you're sick, like sicker than you can ever imagine.

Yeah. So I did it and I got through it and I told her And she was like, oh, my God, this is crazy. And then I got the vivitral shot and then I was good. And then I just, you know, I've had a few relapses along the way, but not a not like. Wait, wait, hold on a second. So basically that Vivitrol that you're talking about, like if you take your drugs, take your pills, it just doesn't affect you.

None. No effects. Believe me, because I tried. You cannot get high. So how does that affect you? Like, so if you're not getting high, what did it do you your mentally? Like, were you just like, what was, wasn't it panic or anxiety or what? Yeah, all of those things.

but, you know, your body is so resilient. I mean, think about when they tell you Tylenol, don't take more than like four Tylenol in a day. I'm taking fucking six at a time, multiple times a day. Like my body just like, the fact that I survived this. And in my addiction relative to like when you see a real hardcore heroin addicts or fentanyl guy, you're like, how is this guy alive? Like my friend Zach Clark who was like shooting heroin and smoking crack 24-7 for like a couple of years,

I'm like, I can't believe you're alive, but that's, your body is like magical. Yeah. Which is why now I look at it. I'm like, I would never put that shit in my body about like, you know, processed foods. And my wife's like, you're crazy. She's like, you're worrying about a cereal? Exactly. Gluten?

Exactly. You won't eat gluten, but you're like, do all these crazy things. But then like, how long do you need to take that drug until you just kind of titrate off of that? Yeah, no, good question. So you take it for 30 days. And then after 30 days, if you don't like take it. So you take it for about three months. And basically, after about seven to 14 days, your brain, you form new, new habits, new addictions.

Like, the same way you can take a drug for seven days and become physically addicted. Yeah. If you cut it out for 30 to 90 days, which is why they always tell people like 90 day rehab with 28 days, that basically is enough time to reset your brain. So then you have a clean slate. And if you're an idiot, you'll start using again. And if you're like, if you have discipline, you'll stay sober after that. I just needed to get it out of my system where I could like get a fresh.

start. Wow. So after that 30 days, you were fine. 90. I got the shot three months. I got after the first month. I went back and got the shot. Okay, so for 90 days. And then you were like, you said you had a couple of like mishaps. Yeah. How old were you when that happened? So when I got sober in 2010, I was, um, 39. Okay. So at 39, so finally like for 10 years before that you were like taking it like 50, 60 pills a day. Every day. Every day. Or I was on subutense. for like a month at a time. And you were, and that that, in those 10 years, was that like your highest, you know, money making?

We'll get to now late, you know, we'll get to like the president after. But in those 10 years, you were making millions of dollars. Yes. So it never, ever affected what you were doing. Well, probably did. Maybe I would have been making tens of, I was going to say.

But I was also spending money as fast as I was getting it because when you're doing that kind of shit to your brain, all of a sudden, all the natural like opioid, all the natural like dopamine receptors and all the feel good chemicals become dull. Like so for a very long time like year plus, the things that normally make you happy, like waking up in Hawaii, looking at the sunset,

having sex, like these kind of things, they just don't fill that void. It's not the same kind of high because when you hijack your like reward system by artificially multiple times a day like getting your like dopamine like, boom through the roof, you're like, no, that's the high that I'm looking for. This other stuff is like,

They're not even moving the needle until you like get back to baseline and then you have to reset everything. So you just, but that's what makes it so difficult because people eventually then a lot of times will give up and be like, I need to feel good for a minute. Which is what would happen is I'd be like sober for like six to 12 months and I'd be like, I'm going to get high just to have a day. I need a day off from life. And it would take like a day or two, three, four days of like being high around the clock to be like, what am I doing? And then my wife would also start to figure it out, like, she would notice the shift in my personality. And you can look at someone's eyes and tell right away. The pupils dialate.

Like, I can look right at someone and be like, dude, that guy's fucking whacked out of his mind. And my wife will be like, why do you know? I'm like, look at his eyes. Yeah, that's not how did your wife not know? Well, she only knew me on drugs. How long were you dating her? Five years. If you only know someone as like a crazy person who's like...

For five years? Yeah. But we were ever sober in those five years. Well, I was on. Sub-Utec, so I wasn't on crazy. I wasn't like high and low, high and low. I was like steady, but that also made me like a grouch and very like jumpy. Like I would be normal. Someone would cut me off in traffic. I'd be like, I'm going to eff and kill that guy. Like rageful. Kind of, but not as not like, off the reservation. I would just be like high strong. So then when you got off the drugs,

were you then still working in finance? Yes. When I got sober, I was working at credit agri-cold trading fixed income products so like corporate bonds and then in 2013 when we had our third child we were living in the city we moved to westchester county to a place called catona that was like ideal like it was gorgeous but i was commuting to the city so i was driving into the city like 40 minutes in the morning to get into the city at like 5 a.m running on the rift on the west side highway yeah training like crazy then i would come home it would be like an hour and a half and it was driving me crazy. It was ruining my life because like 3.30,

I'd start looking at my watch and looking at Ways and looking at my watch and I'd be like the first person out of the office. And at that time, I was working at a financial technology firm that I helped start with a friend of mine called the Mark Kuchinad, who ran structured credit trading at Goldman Sachs. We started a company called Electronify.

That was an electronic trading platform for corporate bonds for end users. So like PIMCO could trade directly with State Street instead of trading through the banks in them taking a fee. Anyway, it was a long shot that it would work, but I wanted to go to California to cover the West Coast clients, and I just wanted the change of my life.

And it was like, in hindsight, it was so insanely stupid and risky for me to do this, because there's no trading desk in L.A. that I can work on. If this doesn't work, I'm in L.A., and I don't have, the only thing I've done is work on trading desk, and they're all in New York. So I was like, I'm going to just take a chance.

And I had, my fourth son was brand new. He was like less than six months old. I moved a whole family across, cross country to LA, I rent a house in the palisades that's like obscenely expensive. I'm burning through money like it's on like, we're like throwing money overboard. I'm just like, I can't believe how quick my money is running out. And at that time, I was training for Iron Man in Hawaii, which I had done a few times previously, because when I got sober, I was like really into endurance sports.

It became my new addiction. That was what I was going to ask you. But so that's what I was going to say, because now that that was a good segue, you were still doing financial stuff though, when you got sober. Like you didn't lose. Like it wasn't, you kind of, you got sober because of your own will. It wasn't because you were going to lose a job or anything. No, no.

I was having kids and I was like, I can't. Right, you're still thriving financially and in your profession. It was just more like now you're having kids. But then did you then use the running as like your new addiction? Yes. Yeah. And how did start? Because you were playing hockey.

Like you were always athletic and did hockey, but you were never a track star. No. I started running when I was like right before I like finally got sober. I was like on subutex, I couldn't get off that, but it wasn't like hugely negatively impacting my life. I could still exercise and stuff, and I just became obsessed with exercising and training. And then when I went through that with that detox,

I started running every day and the nurse would be like, all right, listen, you're gonna feel terrible? I'm like, I've done this a million times. I know what the F I'm doing. Like, I know what's coming, like, spare me the lecture. Yeah. I'm pissed. I hate myself and I'm angry.

Like, I got it. So then I would just go after work and like flog myself running at 10 miles every day. And I would be like, I'm sweating. I'm freezing. I'm like hot. I'm going to drop dead. And I just was like, nope, this is my penance. I deserve this.

F you, you're running. So I just started doing it every day. And it became like a habit. And I was like, okay, I'm feeling better. Now I'm getting faster. I'm getting stronger. And it just became like my own source of pride and punishment. It was like you, this is your punishment.

I've like levied this punishment against you. and you're not getting out of it. And I just built this, like, resilience and discipline. Like, no, I got to do this. No, I feel like, let's get up and go at breakfast. I'm like, what time do you want to go? 10, all right, I'm going to get up and run at 6 or whatever. You know, I would just do it.

You reverse engineer everything, so you run. And you've been running every day for five years, you said, 10 miles a day. Yeah, when I was doing the Iron Man stuff, I would swim, bike, or run, but I would work out once or twice every single day. But when I started, when we moved to L.A., I was training for the Iron Man. And so I was biking a lot. So I would either run or bike every single day.

And there was a guy in my neighborhood in the Palisades who was into cycling. We started riding together. He had an asset management firm. And he didn't have a business development person, but he had like $2 billion in assets under management. And I said, let me run business development for you and help you grow the firm. And he was like, you don't have any experience. And we're friends.

Like, I don't want to have to fire you. It's like we're like too close. Like I couldn't do that. And I said, let me come and work for free for three. months and see if it works out and it worked out like really well and after a few weeks he's like okay here's a real finance salary and all of a sudden i was like back and at least had a job and um but didn't seem like you were ever like hurting for money though like it didn't like you weren't struggling no but i was running out of money i wasn't like no one would have known i was struggling

but i was like getting low like i was getting low because were you overspending what you had basically yeah like i was like i had an crazy expensive apartment in a gate neighborhood up in the Palisades. I was like, I didn't need all this stuff. I had nice cars and I was like, I got to figure out a way to make more money or it's going to run out. And I go, I'd like dangerously low on cash.

But I never told my wife, hey, we're low on money. And that's the relationship we have, though. She, we have very traditional relationship. She handles the kids. She manages the house. She doesn't ask about money. I don't tell her what to spend.

She's like, oh, I want to do this. I want to do that. And I'm like, yeah, go ahead. Sometimes she'll be like, can we do this, this, this, I'm like, can you wait till next month? Or, yeah, do it. Normally, I'm just like, do what you want. She's not, like, into labels.

She would never buy, like, a fancy handbag. She'd be like, I'd rather have the money. Yeah, right, right. So that was the saving grace. And, no, then when I got through it all, I was like, you know, telling her all, she's like, oh, my God, I'm so glad you didn't tell me what was happening. I wouldn't, because I was like, there's no sense in both of us not being able to sleep. Right.

That's so true, right? But I figured it out. And then my life changed dramatically. this guy, Jack McDowell at the Palisades Group, changed my life. He gave me an opportunity to do that, and I rewarded him. We grew from 2 to 5 billion in assets. We were managing, like, we had a series of separately managed accounts. They called SMAs in finance.

The finance nerds will get this. But we would manage these huge pools of capital for big institutional investors, like Soros, Oak Tree, like all these top in-class managers. But we managed a very specific strategy of whole loan residential mortgages. So we would buy non-performing loans, remedy them and then sell them off as reperforming loans once you fix the missing documents in these mortgages. And not, contrary to popular, if you would never buy like a pool of mortgages that people

aren't paying and then evict the people, that's the worst outcome for everyone. You want to like keep them in the house so you might restructure the interest. You might forgive back payments and get them paying again because as soon as they have like a year of payments, the mortgage is now reperforming and a bank and an insurance company can buy that. But they can't buy the stress non-performing out. assets. So it's a lot of boring shit. But point is we had a really niche strategy. And there was an opportunity to build, to start our own essential internal like private equity fund, like our own

discretionary fund where people give us money and we manage it to our liking versus separately managed accounts. You're managing it in conjunction with the other manager. And the fees are appropriately much smaller for an SMA. But on a private equity style fund, we were getting paid no management fee because we didn't need the management fee to run the business because we had $5 billion in capital, but we took 30% of all the profits we made and we tried to hire people to help us raise the money and they laughed us out of the office and they were like, why do you think you can do this? And I was like, I think I can win the Boston Marathon until someone beats me. Of course I think I can do it. No, I didn't think I could, but I was like, I'm going to convince everyone around me that I can.

And we did it. And we raised like $35 million. And in two years, made $10 million. and the clients all doubled their money, minus 30%. I want to take a quick break from this episode to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their trite panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain.

can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therisage trilight everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therisage.com right now and use code be bold for 15% off. This code will work sitewide. Again, head over to Therisage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E dot com, and use code B-Bold for 15% off any of their products. So do you think would be your super, would you say your superpower is what?

Is it that? Delusionally optimistic in my abilities, because if I sit down and, think I would tell you like, I don't think I can do that again. I don't think I can win another race. I got lucky. Like, the people that showed up weren't very good. Or if I did a good business deal for a long time, I'd be like, man, I'll never be able to get a deal done like that again. And then eventually I just was like, you know what? I've done this so many times. Like, I got to stop thinking that it was luck. But it's also, like, you must be exceptionally good at sales. People like, if you, if someone who's into sales and sales processes sat me down, they'd be like,

well, how did you reframe this in? Why did you? I'm like, I have not. I have not. I have No process. Yeah. That was like my biggest. That was my, the guy who hired me, Jack McDowell, that was his biggest, like, bone of contention with me. It drove him fucking crazy. Right.

He would be like, I can't. He's like, do you know how much it pisses me off? You're the last one in, the first one out. You don't take notes. You never send updates and reports. But when I tell you, we need to, we needed to raise $5 million for the operating company, which is crazy hard. Right.

Basically take a stake in this manager that isn't really making a lot of money. And I did it. Then we wanted to raise discretionary funds. We couldn't even hire people to help us. And I did it myself. And he was like, this is crazy. He's like, nothing that you're doing makes sense, but you keep getting it done so consistently that I don't even doubt it anymore.

When I tell you I want to do something, my inner dialogue is like, well, never. He's never going to be able to do this. And then you do it. And I just can't believe it. And it's all based on relationships. But none of it is traditional, like, let me sit down and explain to you how I like,

see when he did this. And then I changed my body. And then I pointed like this, like a Tony Robbins thing, like he reframe. You can see him reframing with his hands. And then he points to get his, I don't, that shit's foreign to me. I'm just like, hi, I just want to do a deal. Here's the deal. I want, I'm an honest person.

Here's my background. Everything's publicly available. I've never been involved in like a financial conflict in my life. I've never been partied to any lawsuit. I'm like, I also think, like, we were talking earlier. If someone has a dispute about money, I'm like, just keep it. I don't need that energy in my life. I'm not desperate for money.

I'm not desperate to do a trade. And I think when people sense that you don't need to do something, they want to be in business with you because it's just sincere desire to do business, not like desperation or necessity. How much of it, though, is likability, right? Because I think that in order to be extremely successful in life, I think the most underrated skill is likability.

Because if someone likes you, they'll give you their money. Yes. They'll want to hang out with you. they'll want to, like, be in business with you, right? You can have all the credentials in the world, but if you're not someone that they like, then it doesn't matter anyway, right? That's exactly right. And so my question is to you is like, can you even teach someone that, those skills?

Right? Like, isn't that kind of like either you have it or you don't? It's something that is like, it's a little bit frustrating to me because I'm like, I don't know how to quantify what I'm doing. I don't know how to explain it to someone. I've had, I've mentored a million different kids over the years working with me formally and informally and I'm just like, I can see them trying to emulate some of the things I do. And I would always say to them like, do not try to do things the way that I do them.

Take the style that I'm using. Put your own personality into it, but you can't talk like me. It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy when I hear myself talk, but hearing you try to talk like me is not, and I don't know how to teach that. But like when I talk to my kids, I can tell them what my mindset is and I can explain to them like my son was struggling with school and he's 14 and I'm like, listen, you think anyone like school, buddy? You think I like school?

But here's the thing with life. You are going to pay these dues right over here. You're going to pay these things now or later and it's up to you. And they keep getting more expensive as if you go later. Meaning if you don't do your work now, that work is going to get exponentially harder next year. But the people that are smart will pay their dues now so that later in life, if you do to handle your work now, go to the rights. schools. Whatever your profession is, get the right degrees. Do the hard work early. It's like bankers. Five years of your life are gone. They're going to own you. They're going to torture you.

But if you do those five years, you're going to be rich for the rest of your life. Right. And so you could pay me now or pay me later, but everyone's paying. Everyone's paying to be, yeah, exactly. And if you don't pay now, you're going to pay a little over time and your life's going to be miserable because you're going to do things you have to do versus things you want to do. And it's like people who like, in finance and I'll be like, I want to do what you're doing. I'm like, I don't even know how to describe to you what I do. Like, I, how did you make the move from finance? I said, if you're waiting for the stars to align, they're never going to align.

I basically almost went broke, backed myself into a corner and just put all my chips on the table, betting on myself. That's the thing, though, like you're authentically who you are you, right? And I think that people gravitate to people who are very authentic, right? Like, you're not trying to be somebody else. You're not doing something that, like, you're not trying to fit into a box. And that is attractive in itself. But your mindset and your mentality and your, like, ability to, like, really kind of, like, to do the thing that nobody wants to do is so intense. How does that, like, how does that even, like, how do you even teach that?

Like, you can't even teach. Like, and someone even, like, like, you have a whole book on how important it is to do, like, the hard things, right? So do you have, like, a framework where people would read this book. book and be like, okay, how can I be even 10% more gritty than I am right now? Would they be able to find these actionable ways to do it? Yes, because I'm not telling anyone how to do anything. I'm just showing you in the book how I did it. Here's how I changed careers. Here's how I got sober. Here's how I got married. Here's how I adopted children. Here's how I raised my kids. Oh, finish that sentence. Here's how I did it, blank. How did you do it?

Everyone is scared of any kind of change. Anything that you're thinking about doing that's hard. Of course it's scary. So I use my kids as a lot of examples. My one's middle son is very timid, but he's very athletic. He's playing baseball, so he's up at bat. Every time the pitch comes, he steps like away from the box. And I'm like, so after the game, and I parent them all differently because they're all different. And I try not to be intense, but it's hard enough for them to be my kids because they know that I want to die to win.

But I don't try to put that on them, but it's inevitable that they pick up on them. Yeah. It's inevitable. So it's hard for me to like, because all I stress is effort. I don't care about winning and I, it's, well, we'll get into it more. But so I said to him, buddy, every time the guy throws the pitch, it looks like you're scared. You're stepping out and he's like, I am scared. And I said, okay, at least we know where we're starting.

Guess what? Everyone's scared. You need to learn how to do this while you're scared. I'm scared about everything. There's the picture of the, on the cover of my book is from the Gobe Desert, a race I did in Mongolia. Yeah. I had never run an ultra in my life. I had never slept in a tent, run with a backpack.

and now I'm doing a 155-mile stage race over six days across the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. Sounded like a cool challenge until I'm boarding the plane and thinking like, what the F am I doing? I'm so scared. But when I walked down the jetway, it was a very distinctive moment, like very memorable moment because I was like, I'm so scared like for weeks leading up to it. I'm like, what have I done? I have sponsors. I'm like, I could humiliate myself.

And as I walked on the plane, I was like, you know what? F all this. I'm going to kill everybody. and I am going to convert all of my fear into aggressiveness like hell on the hill. My legs were destroyed running down that hill at Jesse's house. Like I couldn't walk the next day and I knew it was coming while I was, oh my God, that race is so hard. Running down that hill and that eccentric load on your muscles destroys my legs. Worst than a marathon, worse than an iron man.

I mean, you're going for three hours running up and down a hill at 18% great. It's like you're breaking, breaking, then like using all muscle to get up the hill. I don't want to do it. I'm like intimidated and scared, but you saw the mindset that I get into is like, no, it's time to attack because you are either going to kill or be killed. And when I get into those positions, and if anything,

that's what I would say is the main overriding theme. It's like you get to the point in your life where you either accept mediocrity or you realize that if I want to do hard things, guess what? If it was easy, every asshole would have already done it. And I want to do things that other people can't do. And the only thing separating me,

I have no natural gifts. I mean, you saw me. You walked in. You're like, oh, you're not as big as I thought you were. Like, I'm a very average guy. And I know that. I have nothing special except my mind. And that's the thing is for everyone listening.

It's all internal. Andrew Huberman the other day said, a psychologist or a psychoanalyst told him, it's all internal. Meaning, you win a race. No one comes over and sprinkles dopamine on you. You generate those feelings internally. And when you realize that you're also generating the fear,

the anxiety and all that shit is self-induced. the same way that those emotions start to get embedded in your brain, whether you like it or not, you can also control that experience and be like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not afraid. They better be afraid, even if you don't believe it.

If you repeat it enough times and act on it, once you start acting on it, it's a reality. You would never know I'm scared. I'm standing on the start line of every race, wishing I was anywhere but there, scared shitless. But outwardly, I'm like, you're all dead. I'm killing everyone. Even though I love everyone, but that's the process.

I have to go through because I know I'm not special, but I know that the things that I can control, most people don't know how to do that. Well, you made yourself special, actually, because of your mindset. Like, to me... But that's available to anyone. Well, right, but what you said to me that was really important, which was everything in life is a decision, right? You can decide to be a superstar.

You can decide to be a loser, right? Depending on what you do with it, right? But you said the thing that was very true. It's the action you do. The more action you take on something, the more you give yourself the self-confidence and self-esteem that you can, like, do a hard thing and then do the next thing and do the next thing. You've just done so much of it that now you're, you have so much confidence that, like, maybe if you don't even know how to do it, like, that race, that, the 100, the ultramarathon is so insane.

Like, you know, you could, even if you've never done it before, you know you can actually finish it because you've done a hundred other races. Well, I didn't know. I was nervous, but I wasn't going to show anyone else. I was nervous because, like, people are animals with people who have, We're animals. The same way I look at my kids sometimes playing. I'm like, they might as well be like puppies or lion cubs.

Like the boys are roughhousing. My daughter can't get away from them fast enough. And when you realize that, dogs can sense if you're afraid. Like you ever say, I'm not a big dog person. And when dogs are super aggressive and I'm like, oh, my God, don't let the dog look at me. The dog knows exactly who's afraid. And they go right to them. And I'm like, oh.

Exactly true. But then when you turn at them and like get aggressive with them, they'll like, oh, no, that guy's crazy. They'll die away. Yes. And people are the same thing. When they sense like, weakness, even if it's subconscious, they can see. Oh, he's scared. The same way they see you scared at the start of race. They're like, that guy's, like you seeing me at the race. Like, that

guy's fucking crazy. Look at how he's running. Even though it doesn't matter what's going on inside of me, I'm only projecting what I want people to see. And that's like, I'm here to kill. Yeah. And you're also just like the tunnel vision and the, and the beast mode of like just you wanted to get this thing done. That's right. I want it over with. You want it over with and done. So I'm like, I'm not going to bother them. I'm not going to, I'm going to leave them alone. But okay, so the thing is though that we like you haven't said it yet i haven't said it yet this like you are like the fat like this guy is like the fastest guy like in your like over 50 and you started when you were four in your 40s i mean that is like insane number one that even shows and i think you even talk about it

that like where you started from has nothing to do with where you're going to end up right again this is this is literally sheer grit and mindset that people could reframe for themselves like they don't have to be stuck where they are that's not their that doesn't have to be their They can always shift and move if they want to. Think about all the entrepreneurs that are out in the world that have like stories of like a hundred different failures. I was reading about this kid. I don't know a lot about him, but the Alex Hermosie. Yeah.

Oh my God. I had like three or four businesses that failed miserably. And now he's worth, I don't know how many hundreds of millions. He's writing books. He's got like that guy like he's got the same mindset. He just applies it to business. Business just doesn't apply like it doesn't get me excited the way like a competitive race would. But he, like, had gyms that filled.

Then he had other gyms that filled. Then he created some software for gyms, and now he's worth, like, hundreds of millions of dollars, seemingly. You know what's interesting, though? It's because he found something that he was good at. Like, to you, like, what's interesting to me with you is, like, this is a whole other career path, right? Like, this endurance, like, you're, like, a very,

probably one of the best endurance athletes there are, right? That's how I was introduced to you anyway, which is, and it, and it's true. and that in itself is just own business career like you may have been terrible something else but you may like this in itself could be an

this is an entire business as how you're doing it people you've actually keep on like reinventing like reinventing yourself into this new person you were a finance guy and then you were like

now you're an endurance athlete you also have like a you know like a marketing agency but like the through line is your self-belief and that you know Like you don't really care. You're not putting yourself in a box.

You're like, I'll do this box for a while. And then I'm going to shift and I'm going to try this thing. And then if that doesn't work, most people don't have that ability to see themselves beyond like the myopic view of themselves. Right. And so besides action, what is something else that people can like learn from you that can help them move even like a little bit further? When you were just describing that, the only thing I could think was like, yeah, I've tried a million things. I failed at a bunch of stuff, but guess what I'm not afraid to do? Lose. Because guess what? If I'm not losing occasionally, I'm not really trying. And if you're

afraid to lose, like starting the agency. Like, I didn't know if the agency was going to work. I didn't know if doctors and scientists were going to work with me. Were that your idea? Yeah. I mean, I mean, me, like, and John Bear was instrumental in saying, like, you should do this. You've got to, Jesse Isler was like pushing me to do this for years. He's like, you should manage fighters. So initially, my thought was I'm going to. Because I have. Because I had a podcast for a long time called The Fight with Teddy Alice that was huge. And we like, that's how I met Dana White. I've interviewed Jake Paul, Dave Portnoy.

We had every fighter. We had every champion in the UFC at one time on our show. So that's how I got introduced to like combat sports. And now my youngest son is into jiu-jitsu and wrestling and he's friends with Dana. So Dana will invite him to like huge fights. And we sit not in the front row like against the cage. It's unbelievable. Like I've got pictures on my Instagram of my, when he was eight, my son with his in Boston,

with a Celtics jersey with his own name on the back because when we bought him the Celtics jersey I was like do you want like Jason Tate and what name of player do you want on your back he's like I don't want another man's name on my back I want my own name he was eight he must have heard me say that because I would always say that I'm like I'm not going to wear I mean maybe Larry Bird but I'm like I'm not wearing another guy's name on my back no one's better they're worse than me I'm like for my own jersey and he had a he had a lepricon hat on and he Dana loved him Dana comes over before the main event of this huge pay-per-view fight in Boston, and goes, Cameron, give me a phone.

My kids don't have phones. I said, here, take mine. So he brings him over, interrupts the broadcast, sits him with Rogan, and I'm friends with Rogan too. He's taking pictures of my son with Rogan. Then he's got Bruce Buffer, the announcer, holding his hand up with the tuxedo on point in a camera, like he just want to fight. Then Dana comes around.

He goes, Cameron, get in the cage. You can see in the background. There's a picture on my Instagram. The place is packed because the main event's about to start. Yeah. And Cameron's standing in there with his hands up like a fighter. And he gets out of the cage and he says to Dana, Dana, the next time you see me in the octagon, I'm not going to have my shoes on

because he had like Celtics, call it, Air Jordans on. He's just like a cool, kind little guy. Yeah. And but, so I had that podcast. So when I started the agency, I was going to manage fighters. So we managed the UFC Welterweight champ for a while, Belal Muhammad. I've done work with Dana, Dustin Pori, although I'm not as manager. But we've done, like, we brought them deals.

And then very quickly, though, we started. I started working with a couple doctors and scientists and thought leaders in the health and wellness space like Jeremy London, Brian Hofflinger. I've done some stuff with Andrew Huberman. And very quickly, we started to carve out a niche. We've worked with Kristen Holmes at Woop and all these people that I've friends with. And I started showing them deals. And again, not in a transactional way. I was like, hey, no exclusive arrangements, but can I show you deals? And because I had all these relationships with brands, because I raised the money for a bunch of them, And I had an inventory finance company for a couple of year, another example of a failure.

That business didn't work. We sold it for next to nothing, but I learned a lot. And through that, everything you're doing, you're gathering Intel, you're learning information. I learned how about CPG brands and how difficult it is managing their cash flow and building out inventory and getting terms with manufacturers, contract manufacturers, the whole shit. It was a lot of crash costs in CPG and entrepreneurship because I worked with the founders. And through all that, I just had all this experience. And I was getting influencer-type deals from the running I was doing.

I had a shoe deal with Reebok, which was crazy. They only had like three athletes, me, Shaq, and like Angel Reese. It was crazy. And I started to get so many deals that brands were coming to me. And I'm like, I can't do any more brand deals. But I know a guy that would be a good fit for you. And I just, for years, my wife would be like, you're doing all these intros. Like, why don't you try to make that a business?

Like, it seems like you're creating just a bunch of extra work for you. yourself. And I'm like, they're my friends. I'm building relationships. I never wanted anything in exchange for being a good friend. Yeah, yeah. And it just morphed into a career and a job. And it's the same thing with running. I didn't set out with running like, hey, I'm going to be a run influencer. People are going to know me. Like, I frigging toiled in darkness and anonymity in those hills above Malibu and Calabasas for so long. Like, I met Reggie Miller up there. Reggie Miller is riding his bike. I'm running every single day we see each other. Are the only people out there for miles and we just developed a friendship. He wrote a blurb for my book. We DM back and for them.

I'm like Reggie Miller is one of the best basketball players in history. It's like frigging Michael Jordan. And the fact that he's like, but he respected me because he saw me there every day and, you know, going up a mountain on a bike and running. You're basically going the same speed. We'd be right next to each other for like 10 minute climbs. And he'd be like, man, you're getting after it. I'm like, well, you're right here too. And we were just and he's like the same age. And all of this stuff of just putting out good energy and effort, it all morphed itself into this. this nichey weird career that I have now that I'm like incredibly grateful for. I say to my wife like once every couple of weeks, I'm like, can you believe I don't have a job?

When I was working on a trade desk, I'm like, I'm in hell. Like they own me. I'm there 12 hours a day sitting like side by side with other men all day trading, fighting, bickering. You know, guys like got his phone up too loud. You're like, dude, turn that effing phone down. I'm going to throw it out the window. Of course, it's all alpha guys. They're like, F you.

I'm like, you turn that phone. You know, it was like crazy shit. like that. Constant conflict. Now I have no conflict in my life. If someone is like, doesn't gel with me, I'm like, I don't need to do this business. I'm going to go do something else. Do something else. Did you know Americans spend an average of 90% of their time indoors? But do you also know that indoor air can be up to 100 times more polluted than outdoor air? Well, you can breathe easy with air doctor, the award-winning air purifier that eliminates 99.99% of dangerous contaminants, like allergens, viruses, smoke, mold spores, gases, and so much more. Air Doctor was voted best air purifier by Newsweek,

so it's no surprise that 98% of Air Doctor customers agree. Their home air feels cleaner, safer, and healthier. Unlike other purifiers, Air Doctor captures invisible particles a hundred times smaller than standard Hephafilters. So head to Air Doctorpro.com and use promo code. hustle 40 to get up to $300 off today. And Air Doctor comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee, plus a three-year warranty, an $84 value. So get this exclusive podcast-only offer now at Airdrepro.com. Use promo code hustle 40.

Okay, so let's get to the running, because this is like the big thing. So you're like, explain this. So then you start running. You didn't set out to be like the fastest, the best. You're just doing this as like kind of like a way to kind of get out all your rage and all the, you have to shift something. You're not doing drugs now. So that just becomes your new like addiction basically, right?

So like when did you become competitive with it? Like when did you kind of see that you were like faster? Like what's your time? It's like 540 now. Like it was like some crazy time, right? 540. 539 per mile is the pace that I ran. My best marathon was 228.

but I've run 229, sub-230 after 50, like five or six times. So I set out, so I was running in like 2016. I moved here. I'm running 17, 18. I started to like recognize, oh, man, I'm getting pretty good. And I won the Malibu Half Marathon one year in like 2017 or 18. And then I was like, wow, I can't believe I won a race. It wasn't crazy fast.

It was like an hour and 12 minutes, but it was fast enough to win. And then in 2020, I won the Pasadena. half marathon, which was like 9,000 people finished in the Rose Bowl live on KTLA. And I crossed the finish line and the newscaster is like, oh my God, here's the first place finisher. What's your name? And I'm like, Ken Rideout. And she's like, how was it out there? You're the first place finisher. And I go, it doesn't say much about the competition. And she was like, oh, I don't say that was kind of like an insult to everyone, a subconscious subliminally. But I was like, oh, no, no, everyone was great. But that's always been my mindset about races. Like the day before

I turned 50, I won the Myrtle Beach Marathon, the whole thing. Like, not. my age group. I won the whole race. And my wife was like, and I wanted to win a marathon for a long time. My wife is like, oh my God, she's crying. She's like, you did it. We're on the phone. And she's like, you don't seem that happy. I'm like, there was no real good competition here. She's like, how much did you win by? I said less than a minute. She goes, what the hell? Like, what would you have been happy with? I said, I should have run under 2.30. But that was my default setting was like, and it's not, it's not like, I'm not seeing this in a bragging way. I wouldn't want anyone else to feel this way, but it is what it is. I was just like, it was never enough.

I was like either not running fast enough or the competition wasn't good. But if I didn't have that mindset, it wouldn't give me the motivation and drive to do the things I did. It's like, it's like if you listen to interviews with like Kobe Bryant or Tom Brady and not that I'm trying to compare myself to those guys, but it's like there's almost like a tortured soul component to people that are overachievers and doing like great things. And again, not that I'm doing great things. But you can't kind of have one without the other. When's the last time you saw someone who's like top of their game in any category and they're like, oh my God, I'm so well balanced. Everything is great. Yeah, yep, I did everything I had to do today and everyone likes me and I like

everyone else. Never. No, right. There's a component of it that's like, that guy's a psychopath. The guy who won the gold medal, yeah, he's a nut. Oh, yeah, I guess you have to be nuts to be like the kind of drive and determination it takes to do some of these things takes that kind of mindset, unfortunately. It does. I mean, I'm glad you said that because the whole thing about balance is completely nonsense. I mean, if you want to be extraordinary, you need to be obsessed and so, like, just insanely focused to be a psychopath, like you have to be. The fact is, like, you're right, I've never met one, like, really good athlete or really good person who's, like, someone who's super successful in any field, who's just, like, laissez-faire about life. You know what I mean?

It's just, I've never seen it yet. Well, like, Laird Hamilton and Gabby Reese would be an example of someone who they're super successful and they're very peaceful, but go to their house in their 50s, they're like fucking almost drowning themselves every day. They're getting after it to an extent that most people can't comprehend, but it becomes your normal. And I'm going to say everything becomes, everything becomes,

you can acclimate to anything and that becomes, it's all relative, right? Everything is relative. So it's not going to be normal to an mediocre average person. Exactly. And you're anything but mediocre. So then here we are, you're basically this, like you're not like, you know the competition is not even close to what you're like, you're like embarrassed that that you're winning against these people.

Yes, that's right. And then what was the first, like you won the New York Marathon. You won the Boston Marathon. Well, be clear, I didn't win the whole marathon. I won that 50 and over. In your category. Okay. So in 2020, I just turned 50 and I think I did Rich Roll and he was like, what's your goal this year?

And we're coming out of COVID. So because coming out of COVID, all the marathons will. lump together because they were making up for the when they were suspended because of COVID. So they were all taking place in like 17 months, whereas normally there's only two a year. So it would take you at least three years to get all six marathons unless you ran like one week and then another week and bought, you know. So I just kind of blurt out like, oh, I'm going to try to win my age group in all the world marathon majors.

So Boston, New York, Chicago, Tokyo, London, Berlin. And the first one up was Boston and I won. I ran 2.30 just on. And again, I crossed the finish line. Oh, so cool. 2.30 and 20 seconds, I couldn't find 20 seconds, but I won my age group by a lot. By how much? By how much? Like five minutes. And then... By five minutes? Okay. So then I went to... No, sorry, London was first. I ran London and that was the World Championships the first year I turned 50,

and I ran that race in 2.30 and like 50 seconds. And I crossed the finish line, and they made us, you had three distinct separate start areas, and at three miles, they all merged together. But you can't see the different start areas because there's so many people, they're like in different parts of a neighborhood so they can get all the people starting at the same time. So I'm standing on the start line of the age. We're all in the corral together in the 50 plus age group and we have special numbers on our front and back so you can identify who you're racing within the race. So we take off and I crossed the finish line. No one passed me and when it merged in three at the three mile mark, I'm leading my section of the London Marathon, the motorcycles are in front of me.

I'm like, holy shit, this is crazy. I'm not winning the London Marathon, but I'm leading my section. It's crazy. And I'm like, I can't even see them behind me. And I'm like, oh my God, maybe am I going too fast? So I crossed the finish line. No one passes me. You know, like one or two people pass me throughout the race.

When you're running that fast, it's like not a lot of movement. You know, people get locked into the pace. Yeah. You don't see people running like super fast at the end, very rarely, other than maybe the last mile. So no one passed me. So I crossed the finish line. I'm like, holy shit. I think I just won the age group world championships.

I run all the way back to my hotel in Hyde Park at the four seasons. I get all my bags. I'm like, later I get, I'm on my way to the airport trying to catch the next flight out. I was literally on a flight in like three hours after I finished. And I call my, the guy who was coaching me, Mario Frioli. And I'm like, dude, I think I won the whole effing thing. And he's like, no, it says you a second. There's a guy in front of you.

I'm like, dude, I think this guy cheated. He, it's impossible. He, there's no way that got anyone past me. Long story short, the guy started in a different area. intentionally, and the shitty thing is the only two people in the world that care of me and him. But I know what he did because he ran the first three miles in like five minute flat per mile. So basically what he did was he ran as fast as he could when it all merged together. I didn't know there was someone up the road because he's supposed to be starting with me.

I even sent him a message and was like, dude, how did you not start with me? You didn't run past me. He's like, oh, I started in the section with the British National Championships. I was like, that was more important to you than the world championships. but I know what he did. He fucked me. And I was like, what am I going to do? I wasn't going to like make a big stink because only me and him care.

No one cares about some old guy complaining about getting cheated in the race. But I was so angry. So I got second there by less than a minute. He just barely beat me. If I had seen him or no, he was up the road, I would have like poured it on and tried to catch him. But can't you tell the people who are in charge of that race? I send the guy an email and I'm like, dude, this is crazy. Like I spent like a shitload of money to come over here and stay in London for

week. I think I'm running a racing. And you're letting this guy start. Like, why even have a special start section if this guy gets to start over there? He was like, you know, basically like, oh yeah, sorry. Next year we'll clean it up. I was like, I'm just being, yeah, he was basically like, yeah, I see what happened. Sorry about that. Nothing we can do now, though we'll fix it next year. I'm like. What's his name and how old is he? No, I don't want to say. I've already like fucking slainter enough. People should know that you are the real winner. All you have to do is look and see who won in 21 in London, the marathon, 50 and old. How old was he exactly?

He might have been a year older than me, so he was just turned 52. Obviously, he was a really good runner. And where is he from? UK. He bamboozled me. He knows what he did. A hundred percent. See, I would be, like, your competitive nature is still pissed about it.

So I'm still angry. So then, like a month after that, I ran New York, and that was one of my biggest wins ever because I won my age group. But as I'm coming into the finish, Shalane Flanagan, a female pro who won New York, she was running all the marathons in like a month. month because they were all like, so she's just running and I'm coming up to finish you in New York and I look back and here and the crowd starts going crazy. I'm like, whoa, what the hell? They're not, they're not cheering for me. There's like a hundred people crossing. And I look back and here comes

Shalane Flanagan sprinting behind me and I'm like, oh, hell no. I'm not going to let her run past me in the finishing line. And I sprint to the finish and as it turns out, I won the Masters Division 40 and over, which paid like $5,000. And I won the 40 and over the first time someone over 50 had ever won that. And like the previous, two of the two of the four previous winners were like Mebkeflesgi, who won Boston, New York, Silver at the Olympics. He ran like 215. And Abdi, Abdi, Rockman, who's a five-time U.S. Olympic runner. They're my friends after the race, they're texting me like, welcome to the club. You're the master's champion. And I was like, I mean, I only ran 233, but I won by three seconds. Really? And if Shalane wasn't closing on me, I would never would have

sprinted. I was on, I was in hell. I was in so dying. So how does it go? It goes over 50. over 40. There's age groups every five years. So 40 to 44, 44, 45 to 49. But the over 40 is called the Masters Division. That's like a distinctive category at every race. Got it. And it pays money.

And there's guys who are over 40 that are crazy fast. Like those two guys were former Olympians still running competitively at 40. And they smashed that. They like probably broke the cost record. What's the time that they would have? 2.15, 212, like under 5 minute miles. Okay. Or around five-minute miles.

Okay, so just for me and for anyone who cares and listens, like, give me an example. So if you're getting at 2.30 and you're winning at 50 and over, let's just say, 2.29. What would be, like, the best, the greatest time for someone who's 35 years old? They would be around, they'd probably have been guys who have won at 35 years old. Now you're like low two hours, under 205 wins marathals. Like 205, okay. That's like nothing. It's under five-minute miles.

This is crazy. Yeah, in the grand scheme of things, like, I'm basically like on my best day in a race, like the C.I.M., the California International Marathon where I ran 228, the winner probably ran 208. So I was like a little less than a minute a mile behind the winter. But if you look at the difference between where I finished and the average finisher of like 3.30, like I'm beating like average runners by like hour to two hours. And I'm only losing by like 20 minutes. But that 20 minutes between me and the winners is astronomical. But that's crazy. Even like five minutes is huge.

When you get to the higher levels and you start running competitively like under 230, finding five to ten minutes is really hard. So when you do your, because you run every day for 10 miles, non-negotiable, minimum. How long does it take you to run 10 miles? On average an hour or 15 minutes, around 7.30 per mile. So 7.30 is like your everyday kind of situation. If I'm in really good shape, it'll be 7 to 7.30. If I'm like just effing around like dated and I don't have a.

race coming up. It'll be like 7.45. Okay, so A, how often do you change your shoes? How about every, I always have like several pairs, because I had to deal with Reebok. I'd have like four or five pairs of shoes that are rotating through. So none of them are overly worn out. And then you can just look at the bottom as soon as you start to see the rubber wearing, you chuck them. So probably like training shoes. There's a difference between training and racing. Racing shoes are very like a little more delicate. They have like not a lot of rubber on the bottom. They're super lightweight. Especially the high-end like Nike, like Alpha Fly or Vaporfly, the racing shoes that those shoes will only last about 300 miles. So like when I'm training for marathon, three weeks, gone.

Reebok made a pair of shoes for 500. Adidas made a pair of shoes for $500 that you could only wear once. Are you serious? Yeah. Why? How? Because they don't have a lot of rubber on the bottom. So they're super, super lightweight and they just wear out fast.

The foam gets compressed. The rubber wears off and they're only made to run fast once. What do you think of Hokas? Everyone's wearing hokas now. Do you like them? They're very big and like very soft, though, but they're like bulky. Yeah, I think that there's a school of thought that says like that extra cushioning is good for you. There's other people like Gabby Reese would be like a big barefoot person and be like, no, that's too much.

It gives you false sense of security. I think like this, it's like people ask me, what shoes do you wear? And I was like, that's like asking the guy who won the Daytona 500. Like, what kind of tires do you have on your car? I need some for my Camry. I'm like, or I need tires for my pickup truck. What kind of shoes do you wear to run every day? I'm like, you have to find shoes that work for you.

Everyone's feet are different. And I mean that honestly, it's not like trying to be funny. It's sincere. It's like, what kind of sports broad do you wear? Well, do you like Lulu Lemon? You might like this one. It's like every person is different. Do you have huge boobs?

You might want more support. If you have no boobs, you might not even want a sports bra. I don't know. It's like that. It's like, I have good, relatively good run form. So I don't need all this extra support. I'm not landing on my heel. I'm not like pronating.

I'm very aware of my form. I think that's one of the secrets to running well is to focus on making sure you're running officially first, then worry about all the extra shit. Because if you're running with terrible form, you're like wasting a lot of energy. So you have this coach who helps you, right? This Mario.

Mario started coaching me once I got to 233, completely on my own without knowing what I was doing. I hired Mario and he helped me get from 233 to 228 in one 12-week cycle. Really? What kind of pointers did he give you? He just gave me structured, very detailed, specific workouts. Whereas when I was training myself, I would just run 10 miles everything. If I felt good, I'd run as fast as I could.

Right. And then I'd run one long run every week. With Mario, I would do like two workouts a week. The long run would be very structured. Every mile would be defined. And it was hard. Man, I did this workout one time, a 20-mile workout in Philly, Because when I had the podcast with Teddy Alice at one point,

him and I trained a guy called Alex Vosdick, who was the WBC Light Heavyweight Champion of the World Boxing. And Teddy is a famous trainer. He trained multiple world champions. And he asked me to be the assistant trainer. And we lived in Philly for eight weeks in a training camp like rocky shit. Like we were in this condo. We had three condos in this apartment building.

And we didn't leave. I didn't see my kids. We didn't do anything. We didn't go out to dinner. We had a chef, a trainer, me and Teddy, and the fighter. It locked in. Wow. And I was doing all my training on the Scully Kill River in Philly in like August, September, October,

because the fight was in mid-October. So it was hot. And I did this run one day and it was like, okay, 10-mile warm up at like 630 pace. So run 10 miles in six and a half minutes per mile. Then the workout went like this. One mile at 545 pace. One mile at 535. one mile at 525 and then go through that three times.

So then the recovery mile is 545 pace, which is close to as fast as I can run a marathon. So you're talking nine miles of like hyperventilating. When I finished that last mile, I literally pulled to the side of this like greenway and collapsed in the grass and like multiple people were like, oh my God, do you need an ambulance? I'm like, nope, I'm just recovering.

I couldn't stand up. And then I got up and ran back to the house. Are you serious? But that's the thing is when people are like, what should I do for training? I'm like, no one is willing. Not many people are willing to do this kind of work, but then they will think, wow, you're lucky.

You're a good runner. And I'm like, I'm the furthest thing from lucky. This isn't luck. It's like, they'll tell you, you know, you're crazy for training so hard. And then when you win, they'll tell you that you're lucky. And it's like some of these people online, man, you could, if I walked on water, they tell me I couldn't swim.

I'm not trying to hear from like the haters and the bullshit artists. It's because most people can't even comprehend and what you're even accomplishing, right? It's like too much for their, it's like something that's out of the realm for what they would even go after. Right, and I don't say that in a braggadocious way. I'm not trying to say, hey, I'm special.

I'm just telling you, if you want to get extraordinary results, like it requires, like, work to, like, the brink of death. Like, what do we say earlier before this? It's like, don't be upset by the results you didn't get by the work you didn't do. Exactly. You know? You know?

Exactly it. And I have so many friends that will be like, yeah, I'm pissed. I hate this job. I should be like the manager. I should be the CEO. And I always think like, trust me, if you should be the CEO, they'd know. Yeah.

I don't have to be a rocket science to look at someone and be like, oh, that person is special. Right. I mean, I talked to you for like five minutes. I'm like, oh, she's crazy. This girl is like an overachiever. Yeah. I felt the same way about you. So then how did you go from going to doing these races, which like marathons to ultra-marathons?

And now this is a whole other, a whole other, you know, bag of tricks. Yeah, but I don't think of. myself as an ultra runner. I was just talking to Scott DeRue, who was the CEO at the time of Equinox. Yeah. And he was like, oh, he connected. I got connected through a mutual friend and he was going to run this race. And he was asking some advice about running or something. I was like, what's the race? And it just for some reason, it just like kind of spoke to me. I was like, tell me more. And he's like, oh, it's in four weeks. So five weeks. It's this, that. And I was like, dude, I think I can win that race. And he's like, have you done an ultra before? I'm like, no. I mean the goby one?

Yeah. He's like, have you, I've never run anything more than America. And I, long story short, he's like, go for it. I don't think you can do it, but go for. And Equinox, like, sponsored me, Reebok, athletic brewing. Like, all these awesome partners were like, oh, I'll help you, like, fund that trip. Because it was expensive because going to a race there. I'm like, I can't get myself in a coach seat for 14 hours going to do this race. I'm like, I needed to get a business class seat, 14 grand. You know, like, I wanted to stay in a nice hotel before the race started, which was the furthest thing from nice in Ulaan, Batar, Mongolia. Well, I was going to say, how nice was it? Probably not that nice.

Oh my God, it was horrible. Like the tiles were falling off the shower. It was crazy. And that was your five-star hotel. That was the nicest hotel in the city. And so I just bought some backpacks and started training in the Nashville heat. I put towels and bottled water in the back to simulate the 20 pounds that I figured I would need because you had to bring your own food. So I had to like research everything, freeze dried food.

What should I bring for food? You had to have mandatory safety equipment, a whistle, a blank, like a tinfoil blank, like all this shit, like insurance. for the insurance purposes you had that. So I just started training, showed up. And like I said, I was scared going there because I'm like, I could humiliate myself. And then I just got there and attacked it. And I just didn't have experience doing it. But like, it's the same thing when I took the job in finance with that guy, Jack McDowley.

He's like, you don't have experience. I said, no one has experience until they effing do the job. Like, at some point someone's got to give someone a chance. Yeah. And if you don't want to give me a chance, I'll give myself a chance. I'll do it for free. And he knew I had three or four kids. Like, I didn't have the luxury of failing.

And it's like that race. I didn't have the luxury of not doing it. well, I had brands that was sponsored me. I'm not going to humiliate them. I've talked about, oh, yeah, I've been training using, you know, Reebok shoes, this thing and that thing, and then I go there and make a fool of myself. Did you win? And I got trounce the first day.

Yeah, one by 90 minutes. There's a whole chapter in there about the book. You could make, they could write a whole movie script just about the race, all the shit that happened. Okay, I know. So let's talk about this race because I think it's, so a month before you go to this race, you have never even trained for an ultra marathon, ever, ever. in a month you get all these big sponsors

and then you end up winning the race. Yes. Okay, how did you do it? Just sheer will? Yes, and I had good residual fitness because I had been training a lot and I had been running races. I was like right in the middle of my best year ever.

And so I get there in the first day, I get a fourth place on the day and every day it's like the tour of France. You get a cumulative time. Tell people how it works because I think just... So it's like 20, five to 30 miles a day for four days, for three days, then there's a 50 miles stage, then there's two more, then there's 26 miles, a marathon, and then the last day is like five miles. And you're getting a little

bit lighter every day, but not terribly, because you have your backpack, a sleeping pad, all your shit in the backpack and the food. So you're eating a little bit of food, but it's not like it's getting like pounds lighter every day. There's certain, even on the last day, you still had at least 10 pounds in that backpack with all the backpack and this, I mean, the sleeping bag and all the stuff. Yeah, all the things, yeah. So the second day I was like, oh my God, I got to manage my pace. I went out too hard. But I also arrived less than 24 hours before the race started like an idiot.

You did? Yes, I didn't do anything right. So then I was like, oh, I, F it, we're in this now. The second day is 28 miles. I go very conservative. Before I know it, I'm looking around, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm leading by a lot, but I'm not killing myself. So then I start to pull it on.

I'm like, oh, my God, it's only like five miles to go. And it's like literally like, it would be like an oasis. I'd be like, oh, shit, there's the finishing village. Start run and get there. It's an abandoned, like, you know, nomad village. We were in the middle of nowhere. We'd see, like, sheep herders and stuff occasionally, just like a movie. You'd see, like, guys hurting goats and shit, but out in no man's land.

And with a few miles to go, I fell down. And because I was, like, losing concentration because I was, like, delusional from, like, glycogen depletion. And I fell down, and I busted my arm open. My arm is gushing blood. My backpack rips. The whole strap rips off my backpack. I'm like, oh, my God. I'm not going to be able to finish this race.

I can't run like this. It's a 20-pound backpack and one strap is missing. I get to the finish line because the blood is all over me. And I don't know I'm bleeding. So I'm like touching my face. I'm covered in blood. And I get there and they're like, oh my God, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm just exhausted.

And they're like, no, you're bleeding. And I'm like, no, my backpack ripped. And anyway, I try to fix the backpack. It's a disaster. Couldn't fix it. I take off the next day. It's kind of tied together. It busts open again.

And I tied it in a weird way that it's, got through the day. Thank God. And on the end of the third day, I'm still in, I got second place that day. I was down by 12 minutes after the first day. I made up eight minutes. I'm down four minutes going into day three. I lose another six minutes, so I'm down 10 minutes after three days to the same Swiss mountaineering guy who's a sick endurance athlete. Not really talking, very stoic. And people are dropping out every day because it's so hard. And we're in the middle of a sand dune setting up at this camp and a woman dropped out. And I convinced, to let me use her backpack, which didn't fit me and like just tore my neck and shoulders apart.

I had like tape all over me trying to protect my skin. But she gave me her backpack and the fourth day was the 50 mile stage and it's me and the Swiss guy all alone at like 20 miles to like 40 miles. But at 40 miles, he's like, man, I got to walk a little bit. And we're racing, but it's also like we're alone in the desert. It's like 100 degrees. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll walk with you for a little while because I'm hurting too. and you would get water every five to ten miles.

So he's running out of water. So I'm taking my water, which I'm trying to use sparingly, and I'm putting it on his head. I'm like trying to help him. I'm like, you want me to carry your backpack? Let's just get to the next aid station. You'll be good.

That's so nice for you. I'm trying to help him survive. Like this guy may die. Like we're in the frigging desert. And eventually some trucks came through that were like race support, like checking on people. And I was like, yo, what the F man?

Where have you guys been? This guy's struggling. So they start giving him first aid. I'm like, you guys are good. They're like, yeah, and I just took off like a bat out of hell. And I won that stage by 90 minutes, which is what I ended up winning by. So then I get there at like five o'clock that night. We start at eight. But because people were going 50 miles and everyone's finished at different times, the next day you didn't race. So that was like Wednesday night. We race against

Friday morning. I'm like, ugh, got to hang around at this camp for like 36 hours. It was like hell on earth. Because I'm like, I'm hungry. I'm cranky. I don't want to be around anyone. I'm in a tent with three women sleeping on the ground, no shower. I'm washing my clothes with the water. Oh my gosh. It was like a survival experience, but I was like, okay, now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And to the Swiss guy's credit, I mean, he was destroyed. He barely finished. After on Friday morning, he got up and came out like a bat out of hell. We friggin sprinted for 26 miles together. And at the end, he ran away from me on a downhill. He was really good going downhill because trail runners are very technical. And I'm,

not and go in the downhill. He just ran so fast. I'm like, I can't believe he's going that fast. If you fall, you're going to lose your teeth. And he finished like a minute or two ahead of me, but I was so far ahead. And as we're coming across this raging river, there's a rope strung across tied to like a big Ford Raptor truck. And I'm holding, first I was like, I don't need that stupid rope. I walked into the river and almost got washed down the white waters. It was so aggressive. So I'm holding on. I take my backpack off, dunk myself under the freezing cold water because now I'm like, oh, now I don't have to wash my clothes. Everything's clean in the river.

And I get across, and the guy who designed the courses stand, they're really nice Spanish guy. And he's like, how was it? And I was like, dude, that was hard man. You better call an ambulance, but not for me. And he was laughing. And so I was at that point, I was just having fun. And the last day was six miles.

And there was a really cool Irish guy who lived in South Africa, Killian Ryan, his family on Ryanair, really nice guy, recovering alcoholic, just really, like, gregarious and just there to have fun. So the last day, he's like, yo, it's only six miles. Like, it's an hour and a half you've won. Like, you can just take it easy. You're going to let someone else win? And I was, looked at him like, he was crazy.

I'm like, I'll fucking die before I let someone win a stage. I'm racing to the death. And he was like, this guy's crazy, but I meant it. And me and the Swiss guy got into like, I'm talking a full sprint. We were running like two lunatics through this little village into this big, like, former Genghis Khan village fortress. And it was always so cool. And I killed him and I ran away like in one by a few minutes and ran into there.

And I was like, oh my God, I won. And that really was when people started to like really pay attention where I was like, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, both called me the best runner in the world over 50, which was crazy for me because there are definitely people who've run faster. But it's like being the Olympic champion, there might have been people that have run faster or done things faster than you. But on that day, they didn't beat you. So on those days, I showed up.

I did what I had doing. I won. But muscle and fitness, outside magazine, Forbes were all writing these articles. I was like, this is so surreal because, I mean, I was like a dead dog loser for like 10 years. Even the first time I made it to Hawaii, I write about this in the book about how hard it is to quit. You think in the minute, like, I'm going to quit. I'm going to get out of this. And I quit like an idiot and it changed my life because I was like, I will never feel like that again.

I will die before I walk home a quitter ever again. Tell that story. I think that's a really good story. I saw that in the book about how you quit. And that was like the most demoralizing experience of your life. Oh, I could like literally cry thinking about it. It's so embarrassing. But embarrassing, my wife would be like, who are you humiliated in front of them?

Like myself. Right, which is by the most important person. My opinion of me is the only opinion that matters. Exactly. I had done everything I could to qualify for the Iron Man in Hawaii. And it was like a goal for like two or three years. And I finally did it. I like, I just got in.

I qualified. at the New York City, Ironman the first year they had it. And when they have new races, they give extra qualifying spots. So basically it's like I found all these loopholes and figured a way to get into the race. And I did it. And to me, it was like qualifying for the Olympics. When you're like 40 years old, it's like, you're not going to the Olympics. This is the Olympics.

It's on NBC sports. It's everyone's trying to get there in the sport. And I got there and I just took for granted that I was like how hard it is. It's like you're doing a, you start running a marathon after running 112 miles, swimming two and a half miles in the ocean and then in the Hawaii at one o'clock in the afternoon. It would be hard to do that like if you were trained for it and resting. To come off the bike and do that was almost impossible. And I got on the run.

It was really hard. And I see my wife and she's recording and it's literally on camera. I run up to her. I'm doing this like, stop recording me. I'm like, I can't do it. I'm going to quit. I got to go back. I'm doing terrible.

I don't even want to finish with this time. I basically convinced myself it was okay. And as soon as I quit and walked back and got my bike, I wanted to throw my bike into the ocean. I was like, I'm a loser. I can't believe what a piece of shit I am. I'm an idiot. I dragged my wife here for this. They're not even finished.

I instantly regretted. I'm like, I would have just, I could have easily just walked and at least finished with pride. Right. Instead, I took the easiest way out, and it was like, it was just a reminder of like, yo, every time I looked for an easy way out or a crutch using drugs to deal with my emotional bullshit or deal with my own trauma. Every time I've taken the easy way out, it never pays well. It never ends well.

It's always 10 times harder. You think you're taking a shortcut, but all you've done is sabotaged yourself. And now I have to carry that feeling with me forever. And knowing what that feels like sucks. Did you go back the next year? Yeah, and then the next year I went back and smashed. I did like nine hours and 30 minutes in that context. I mean, to qualify that year, I finished like six overall at the Ironman and Wisconsin

and won my age group, which was something I would have never dreamed of doing until I had that experience. And I was like, oh, no one's ever going to see me quit again. I'm bringing the heat every time I show up now. And I crushed them. And I could have, I literally could have won that Iron Man, Wisconsin if I had done a little bit more swimming. I lost like 10 minutes on the swim and I lost by 10 minutes. Have you ever tried high rocks? Yes, I did one.

I won the New York City Masters the first year I did it in June. Yeah. Of course you did. Well, but funny, I did it the same year Lance did it. Really? Yeah. I know that was like, yeah. But I was teasing him because he did the open, he did the open category, which the weights are a little wider.

And I did lighter. And I did the pro category and still beat him. And I was like, oh, I got your ass. Really? Okay. So how does it? Because I want to do one. I haven't done one.

It is hard. It's hard, right? So what's the open category? Open and, so I don't know what it is for. It's very manageable, I think, for women, even relatively speaking. It's like, the weights aren't significant. In the pro category, it was like a. 400 pounds sled, you have to push and then pull the kettlebells that you have to walk 200 meters

with are 70 pounds each. It's harder than it sounds. You have to do lunges with a 20 pound sandbag for 100 meters. This is the pro. Yeah, you had to do wall balls where you take a 20 pound medicine ball, do a full squat, and then throw it up 10 feet and hit a target. That was my Achilles heel. I could, I was so close to breaking the world's record for the 50 and over and I just completely melted down on the wall balls. I end up doing an hour. in 10 minutes, but it took me like 10 minutes on like wall balls where it typically takes somewhere about four minutes and I like missed the record by like four or five minutes. Wow.

But I didn't know anything. I only trained for that one for four weeks. But then I came back in Boston last year, obsessed, training and completely fell apart. I made a few mistakes and I did like an hour in 23 minutes. I was so embarrassed. I had to like make a video and be like, dude, I thought I was going to kill and I got killed. And what was an hour? I still qualify for the world championships, but I like,

didn't like win. I didn't, I got humiliated. Have you ever done like, I want to try high rock. Would you do that with me? Can we train that? Because I want to have accountability. Oh my God. It is so hard. But I'll tell you this. Like I posted, there's some pictures that I posted online where I look huge doing that because I'm telling you when I was training for high rocks, I came up from the basement one time. I have all the stuff at my house. Like I have a turf strip in the driveway. Like it's not permanently. It's all I just bought it. I have a sled. I have all the equipment and I came out of the basement one day after lifting weights because I had been running and my kids and my wife were like, Jesus, what are you doing? I'm like, what do you mean?

They go, my oldest son was like, dad, you have huge muscles and I got, I mean, I got strong, crazy strong, but your body will adjust, like nothing got me in shape like that because you had a combination of like endurance, like there's a lot of running, but the strength stuff, which I had never really done that extensively. But when you have a goal and a focus, and driven. I was training like every single day. I was so like I know. I mean, I was big. Really? Big than this. Oh, it's like 20 pounds heavier of muscle. So, have you tried DECA? No, but similar. It's similar, right? I want to try the high rocks I really wanted to do this year and then like I got busy and life happened. But I want, will you do it like

the next six to eight months? I have, um, I've qualified for the world championships in June in Stockholm, but signed up for it. I got to get my head out of my ass. And do the open one? Not in Stockholm. Yeah, you can do the open one and qualify for the world championships up until like end of May. I won't be able to do the world championships.

I could do the open. Yes, no, of course you could. That's what I would suggest. Yeah, I mean, I would never do that first. Yeah, I mean, I would never. Okay, what about, okay, how about now that you're 54, though, are you still planning on doing another, would you ever, would you ever? I might run an ultra, but I think I'm done like with the,

I was talking to Rich Roll about this yesterday. Like, I don't want to feel like it's performative and it's like my whole identity is as a runner. Like, I am so much more than just a runner. And I don't know, it's kind of like, the competitive part of it has lost a little bit of appeal. It's like the ultra, like, when I heard about it, I was like, I'm fired up.

When I heard about high rocks, I was obsessed and trained obsessively. I can't get obsessed anymore about running. And I also don't want to feel like, I don't know, it's weird. It's like, if I've won the age group world champs, it's like, what else can I do? I almost feel like, it's like winning a local race multiple years in a row.

It's like, stop being a bully. Like, let someone else have a crack at it. Like, winning a race is awesome. I don't need to like keep showing all my neighbors. Like, I won the neighbor with turkey trot. Like in the Palisades, I'd run the turkey trot every year and the Palisades fourth of July race. And it was like, like, we got it.

We know you're really, really fast. It's like, yeah. You don't come to the local race and like bully people. Or just like you blast through everybody. Like, it's not even a fair. It's not even a fair. it's like going to hell on the hill and empty in the tank again i'm like i've already shown everyone i can do this i don't want to look like the guy who's you're dead in 12 minutes i don't want to look like the guy

who's like clearly has like some fucking something's missing in his life and he's here killing himself at hell on the hill fucking backyard race no one thought that i can promise you but like but really wasn't it your time like and i'm not even saying it to be funny like wasn't it like literally like 45 minutes to do it no no it was at least two hours that was i mean do that the race was so it is so It is hard. By the way, I like, I have to tell you, it was really hard. I was shocked. Like, I didn't train for it at all. I thought, oh, this is easy. I run every day. I can easily do it. I was like, it was mentally exhausted. It was boring up and down, up and down. Up and down. And it's like, there's not much space. So it's basically going around a track or like up and down a small hill. With like a hundred plus people. Yeah. It was like, I was speaking to this guy. I think I like made a friend. You know why I became friends with on that hill. And we're still friends is Todd Anderson. I love Todd. He's such a nice guy.

He lives near me. Yeah. Because, like, I met him on this hill. And we became friends and we, like, talked the whole time up and down the stupid hill for, like, hours on this thing, you know? Like, he had an injury, so he couldn't go fast. And I don't know. It was a whole thing, but he was very nice. And, like.

Oh, he's the best. Yeah. Really nice guy with dream recovery. Yeah. They've got awesome products. He does. Yeah. Okay.

So now tell me about your daily ritual. Do you take, like, creatine? Like, what supplements you take? What do you do? So when I wake up in the morning, I take. I take... What time do you wake up? I want to know everything. Between five and six, just by default. Okay. So if I have my druthers and I'm home and I doing things the way I want to do them, I don't like to get up and feel like I got to get right out the door.

Right. And I have four kids. So in a perfect world, I wake up at like 5.30. That's a perfect world? Yeah. I would have, I would have, I wish I could sleep longer. Like, as I've gotten older, I have a hard time sleep in more than like six or seven hours. I hate it.

I want to sleep for 12 hours. I can't. I wake up. My body hurts. I'm just like, it's pain in the ass. I can get. I get it. Okay.

Tell me more. So I wake up. I take. NMN and... Okay, wait, stop right there. Why do you take NMN and you don't take NR? That's a good question. I haven't really

considered it, but I take NMN and NAD plus. I don't know why I haven't added NR because what I've been doing has worked for me. Like, I couldn't tell you what each supplement has done like specifically for me, but I can tell you that when I added all these different things to my supplement

protocol, my life improved dramatically. Really? Yeah, like my raise time got faster, but it corresponded with like training excessively. So I take NMN and I take NAD plus and I take vitamin D and fish oil, which you know that vitamin D and fish oil have been scientifically proven that in conjunction with exercise has like a 40% some absurdly high increase to your longevity. Really? It's, you can just, anyone who's listening, just Google fish oil and vitamin D plus exercise

and look at the benefits. It's like sauna. Like the scientific, supporting scientific data is so incredibly strong. You'd have to be insane not to do these things. It's like sauna. Like adds like a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality. I hate the sauna. I get in that thing like it's my job.

That's a great point. So I've never heard that. So you're saying the stack to like live longer, 40% longer or or healthy. Some absurd number that scientifically it was in like nature. It was in nature. magazine just in the last year. Vitamin D plus fish oil plus exercise. That's amazing.

How long exercise? It doesn't, I don't know what it says. Did it give a duration? I don't know what it says in the data, but I was like, perfect. I do that anyway, so I was happy to read it. Me too. I do that also. So vitamin D, fish oil, NMN, NAD plus.

You should really try NR, true niogen. And I'm not just saying that. I mean it. NR, and I'll tell you why, because it's a smaller molecule and it's much easier. It goes through your system. It's how it can, NMN has to, isn't,

don't you have to convert NMN? I think that there are some other things. And the molecule's too big to get through yourself. It could be. Connect me with true niogen. I'd love to experiment with it. I'm going to give you some. How is that?

Or I'll send you some. Perfect. And by the way, I'm not just saying that because I actually true, like, wholeheartedly believe in it. I've seen so many,

so much data on it. Those are the best partnerships that you can say things like that. That's like a good, brand that as someone who negotiates a lot of those deals, I'd say to the brand, like, you want to work with people that genuinely are like missionaries for you. They believe wholeheartedly in everything that you're doing as a brand. 100%. Because there's so many brands, you know this better than anybody with what you do with your new company, with the agency. There's so many brands doing so many

things and there's so much noise. You have to be so discerning with who you're working with. 100%. Like I think it's really important because so much, so much of this business is junk. Like, you don't know what you're taking. That's right. People have no idea what they're taking. Well, you see, they just published all these findings about creatine gummies in so many of the brands. Like, some of the brands had no creatine in it. Think about that.

Is that crazy? Well, this is all the time. I bet you, if you were to take most of your supplements and take them into, like, a lab, you would be mortified. I agree. Of what's actually, how much of the percentage of things are in those things. Well, I would say this. I only take 90% of the supplements I take from Momentus.

Momentus, me too. Shout out to Momentus. They have their third party tested and NSF certified, whatever. Safe a Sport. Yeah. Certified, save for sport. I take their creatine. Yeah.

So I have the new chewable creatines I take. And that's the other thing I take in the morning. I'll take like five of those in the morning. What else you take by Momentus? So then when I finish my run, I'll take, I've taken recovery. It's called recovery. It's like got a right mix of protein and carbohydrates as soon as I run. I've taken that no shit every single day for like seven years.

Really? As soon as I finish my run, I take two scoops of that, one scoop of creatine, mix that in a shaker bottle, like nothing fancy with water and just drink it. And then I'll take another fish oil. And that's really it for supplements after the workout. I'll take another fish oil in the recovery and creatine. And then before bed, I take glycine, which is magnesium glycinate as a form of that. The momentous one? Yeah, then I take the Momentus Sleep Pack, which has magnesium 3 and 8, apennogen, and something else.

Spacing. It's like five, five capsules. So I take the glycine, which isn't from Momentus. I buy it on Amazon. Dr. James D. Nicotoneal turned me onto it. But then I take the sleep pack from Momentus. And sometimes I'll take elite sleep, which has a little bit of melatonin. For a long time, I didn't take melatonin, but then I was reading that as you get older, you produce less melatonin. so I've been supplementing with that. But, you know, it's hard to know, like, unless you're, like, going through, like, very stringent blood tests where you're testing your blood, taking the supplement, testing your blood, checking versus performance. It's like, it's not realistic.

Like, and I'm not, like, a professional athlete to the extent where I'm, like, roaring blood, as soon as I start getting into too much data analysis about the, about blood work and about metrics, it becomes a job. And then it's not, it's no longer fun for me. And even when I was racing my bike a lot, there's a lot of things that you can analyze, like, power output and heart rate. And I was in there like, what's your heart rate? What's your functional threshold power?

I'm like, dude, at that point, I'm not looking for like homework assignment. I totally agree. I do everything on perceived effort. Can I tell you something? I did this with Lance Armstrong. We talked about this a lot. And I found it very interesting that the people who are truly like the best of what they do or excel at such a high level, they are not, they're not.

not testing these little things anymore. Like, they're not doing it as much because of the When Lance was elite, he had people doing it, but he, and he's, of all the elite athletes, I know, no one was more in touch with, like, what was going on than him in terms of knowing his numbers. That guy is like...

When he was actually racing. Yes. But I'm saying, like, what I've noticed that people, like, after a while, you know your numbers. Yes. And then you can kind of go on, like, kind of like, perceived effort.

Perceived effort. Because the anxiety. of like tracking your sleep, tracking this. Everyone's wearing 97 wearables. You know what I mean? They're having their orrings and their whoops and their glucose monitor. I'm like, who are you? I would say that the glucose monitor in a lot of those things are good to have like a baseline

metric. It's good line to understand it. But when you start getting like Brian Johnson where you're measuring your erections and you're like looking at the red light and I'm like, dude, live a little brother. Like you know you're not, you know that we're not getting out of here alive. Like we're all like, imagine we're all in a box. No one's going to leave here alive and you're worried about like, I'm getting too much blue light exposure. That's crazy.

But what's the point? Then you're like not, you're going to die because, you know, you have no socialization, no community, no friends. You're like, you're not like able to have go for dinner because like you can't eat the calories and the carbs. She's definitely can't eat after seven o'clock at night. Seven, try five. What do you mean seven? Listen, I do think when I'm living, when I'm living a good, healthy lifestyle, I do like to, fast for a few hours before I go to bed. It's not really realistic all the time, but I do think that

I sleep a little better if I don't have, if I'm not digesting. But I also like, it's important that you enjoy your life too and like do these things and get outside and like live. Live. How about just the fact that just to live? How about aminos? Have you taken aminos before? I have here and there, but at some point with all the shit I just told you, I take it becomes like just overbearing. I'm like, I mean, if you take all the supplements that every brand has, I'm like, all I'm going to be doing is taking supplements. I'm not going to be doing anything else. Well, the reason why I'm asking you about this with am I meanos.

But I do think that they make a lot of sense, and I think they play a vital role. But if you're eating a healthy, whole food diet, I think that all of this shit is trumped by eating a whole food diet. Meat, fish, eggs, fruits and vegetables. If you can do that, you're winning. By the way, again, why we get along? because I totally agree with you.

All this other stuff is supplemental. If you're not doing the basics, it doesn't matter. You can take every supplement in the world. You can take any, you can go in a cold plunge until your little heart's content. It makes no difference. If you're not eating properly, exercising consistently, it doesn't matter. And also, like, to your point, if you start taking, you don't even know what's moving the needle. If you're taking 97 supplements.

But the only reason why I'm asking you about the amino's is because I started taking them because protein kick, right? It's as you get older to keep lean muscle mass, build lean muscle mass. How much protein can a person eat? Right? Like it's like so much protein. So now I'm taking these, like, I like to put it in my water. And I, and like, you know, everyone talks about creatine. But then how about these, how about these aminos?

I feel like it's kind of like one of these underrated things. I agree. I think you're right. It's just like my brain only has enough capacity to do these, to do so many things. I know. You can only do so much. Okay, so I interrupted you. The one thing I was going to tell you,

though about Lance real quick is I tease about beating him at high rocks, but I'm telling you, I've trained with him extensively and done some racing races with him bike races and stuff, and I'll tell you, I've never met anyone who gets in shape like this guy. Like, I've trained with him for a week once in Arizona. And from the first day to the last day, I was like, this is crazy. Is this the same person? He gets, he's a freak when it comes to endurance.

And when he's dialed. And I said this too in a video, I was like, listen, if Lance shows up and he doesn't care, he's just another guy. But if Lance is dialed in and focused and wants to win, he's going to kill you. Like he's a savage. A savage. But that's what it takes to show up and do something seven years in a row, not get sick.

And like, forget about all the doping stuff. Like I promise you, everyone's doing the same thing. It's still, he shows up seven years in a row in a 20-day event, doesn't get sick, doesn't crash, doesn't have a flat tire at the wrong time. And again, about all these supplements, when you were saying, like, people are worrying about all the different supplements. And if they're not doing little things, again, it's like worrying about what kind of tires you have in your car is a piece of shit.

Like what does the difference, what cars, what tires you have on that car? It's not going to get from A to B. Well, it's like also majoring in the minors, right? Like these things do not matter if you're not doing the big things, right? That's right? The basics. You know, my first book I ever wrote was called No Gym Required, right? Yeah.

It's the truth. Right? It's the truth. And nobody cared and nobody, like no one cared about this book because I spoke the truth. I'm like, listen, shop. the perimeter of the supermarket, right? Like the meats, the eggs, the vegetables and the fruit. Do your push-ups, your, you know, whatever.

It's all free. All free. And by the way, we'll get you in better shape than any piece of equipment than you'll ever get a, if you could do a pull-up, you're like, you're 99% there. I do, I do sets of 20 pull-ups every single day if I'm home and I'm in my gym. And I can do a max of 30 straight pull-ups, like any which way you want, overhand, to underhand, I take great pride in that because I call chin-ups like the great truth teller. There's nowhere to hide.

Get up there and do the pull-ups and you can wiggle worm and shake. You can freaking do whatever you want. Like, get over the bar. You know what I say? I always, you can't fake strong. No. You can fake a lot of shit in life, right? You can fake, you know, your influence, you can fake your affirmations all day in the mirror,

telling yourself how great and wonderful and beautiful and strong you are. But one thing you can't fake is fit. and being strong. So those things will give you more confidence and more self-belief than all these other things that you, all these other hacks that you talk about. And when you do a pull-up, that's like, that's like, that is strength right there. That's right. You cannot, like, that's body, that's upper body strength that either you have it or you don't. And so, yeah, so when I wrote this book, it's ridiculous. Like, nobody wants to hear the truth. They all will buy the, you know, whatever is that magic pill that's being promoted, you know, like if it's going to, like,

GLP 1. Like, oh, that's like the lifesaver for a lot of people now. It's the, it is the life of. Like, nobody's learning lifestyle happens. Well, I think that the GLP 1, though, I think you're going to see that just as quickly as it came in, go out because I think the GLP 2, GLP 3 is like red at true tide and shit. Oh, yeah. Those things are like helping you maintain muscle mass burn fat. It's crazy.

But I think that the ultimate flex and the ultimate status symbol that's available to anyone is walking into anywhere. and having people be like, holy shit, you're in good shape. When someone says to me, I'm like, yes. 100%. They would never be like, what a great watch. But they will say like, holy shit, that guy's in shape. Even when you say, like, I saw you at that race and you were doing this and doing that, I'm like, that's the nicest thing anyone said to me all day.

That's what I'm trying to convey is like a serious person. I want to be taken seriously. I want people to know, this is how I handle business. You work with me. This is what you're getting. And you might not like it because it's fucking I want to win. And if you don't want to win, I'm going to drag you with me. Listen, you're preaching to the converted.

Like, I've always said, I'm going to walk in. You're never going to say, oh, that girl has a nicest dress on or the best jacket. But you know what? You're going to say, damn, that girl's fit. Yes. And that you'll trust me because if I, like, I've had, that shows discipline, number one. And that if you take, if I can take care of myself and I can keep my shit in order, I can probably do the same for you.

100%. Right. And you care enough to wear sneak. Oh, yes. Oh, my God. These shoes, by the way, I'll, excuse me, I laughed and mocked at this whole thing because I thought, my God, they're so like, how can you wear a heel with sneakers? How, like, how ridiculous. Meanwhile, I cannot wear high heels because they're so uncomfortable. I tried on this shoe. It is so comfortable. I love them. My wife has, like, multiple pairs, and I think they're the sexist thing ever. She's like, you really think they're sexy or practical? Like, I go, no, no, no, no. Both. I'm always like, just put on your laundry and come out with your sneakers on. She's like, you think they're, they're like, you think they're. that sexy. I go, there's something sporty about it that is attractive to me. Really? I love that. I'm telling you, I'm going to wear these all the time. They're so comfortable. I love them.

And by the way, right, like, that's why I like them. I think they are sexy because, like, they're cute enough for people who are athletic and fit who can't wear, like, regular heels. But now they can have, like, they have a hybrid. And if someone tried to mug you, you could actually do, like, karate and shit in those things. Or you can run away. And by the way, I can also walk to my car because in the other high heels, I can't even walk. I've got to crawl or kind of like hold on to things. Okay, so probably I'm like hours late for the guest. Oh, yes, I am. Okay. I'm going to have to wrap this, but oh my God, this has been a pleasure having you on. Thank you. It's been a pleasure talking. Seriously, it's been so nice having you on this. Ken, Ken's book is called Everything

You Want is on the other side of hard. He is an incredible. You've got to read the book and get all his stories and his shenanigans because he is so, like I said, he is. He is, the real deal. And I cannot believe I finally had you on the podcast. I'm so thrilled to have met you in person without me just, you know, basically walking by you on the hill. And where else can people find you, learn about you, whatever, whatever, all the things? I'm super active on Instagram, Ken Rite Out, and the book comes out March 10th from Simon & Schuster. It's available everywhere you buy books. And I read the audio book myself. I recorded it. So that also comes out March 10th, and it's all available for pre-order everywhere you buy books, including Audible. And I've

be super grateful if anyone would buy the book. I'm going to do some live events in New York, L.A., Miami, Nashville, and I want to like meet as many people as I can. And I'm happy to sign books and do everything. I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to even have this and connect with all of my fellow endurance nerds. And, you know, I consider myself the leader of the nerds. So I say that as a term of endearment. But honestly, I'm like super grateful for you for allowing me to share this with your audience and I'm happy to know you. You have great energy. Oh, thank you. So do you. Well, we're going to be friends now. I know you say don't have room for any, but you're going to have to like push one aside. Oh no, we're constantly having cuts. Good. Okay, I'll talk to you guys

later. Bye. Thanks.