Habits and Hustle - Episode 80: Christopher Voss – Former FBI Hostage Negotiator, Best Selling Author, and Businessman

Episode Date: September 8, 2020

Chris Voss is a Former FBI Hostage Negotiator, Best Selling Author, and Businessman. A career of high-stakes interaction has opened Voss up to the nuance of human nature, and through a very scientific approach, not only does he break down what it takes to level with and empathize with life-threatening terrorists, but also a business associate. From the strength of “no” to the worthlessness of compromise, Voss and Jen discuss the ins and outs of hostage negotiation to the ups and downs of interpersonal relationships. Curious what insight an FBI Hostage Negotiator could possibly have on business, hustle, and success? Yeah, us too. Don’t miss out. Youtube Link to This Episode Christopher’s Website Christopher’s Instagram ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the Habits and Hustle Podcast. A podcast that uncovers the rituals, unspoken habits, and mindsets of extraordinary people. A podcast powered by Habit Nest. Now here's your host, Jennifer Cohen. Chris, you have no idea how excited I am to be sitting with you right now. You need to have higher aspirations. I'm telling you, first of all, I guess I'm using my like happy smiley personality with

you because I gotta say this is one of the only books that not only did I listen to it on Audible, but I actually read it twice because there was like so much information. You can't, it's impossible just to like listen to it one time or like read it once because it's, there's so much that you could apply to like practical your practical personal life, your professional life, obviously your hostage life. So I'm it. I loved it. Just want to let you know. Thank you very much. It's really kind of you to say it's much appreciated. No, it's true. And I also didn't realize until after I heard you in different interviews that that wasn't your voice on the audible On the book on the listening one because I was like I'm like wow no wonder if he was such a great hostage negotiator his voice was like

Beautiful and perfect Good voice. We had a good guy to the to the honorable. Oh my god. He was amazing amazing But anyway, um welcome to habits and hustle. I Hustle. That was not even my intro. That was just, I saw you and I was just so excited. I just had to tell you that. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, like I just finished rambling on to you, there's literally so many different things that I wanted to ask you about. And I don't even know where to start. I guess maybe the beginning, I guess. And just, you know, from what I just, what there's so many different concepts in it, but one thing that I found very interesting was that you would,

it's kind of like being a hostage negotiator is kind of like being like an amazing psycho at, like psychotherapist or psychologist, because it literally is like emotional intelligence on steroids. Thank you very much. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's crazy, right? Yeah, and I want to know from you, I mean, is that, is that do you think that everybody is able to learn those techniques or does some of it have to be innate in somebody? Now, you know, I'm very much a subscriber to sort of the Daniel Coil School of Thought on this e-book called The Talent Code, which is, we were all born with this stuff.

Coil would contend that there's no such thing as a prodigy. It's just that people got their 10,000 hours in sooner than other people realized. Right. You know, you put in your time, you enjoy it, you give your focus, and you join them as a critical, and join them is a learning hack, actually. But anybody can do it, anybody's got this in them. So were you born with a yeah, everybody was born with it?

Well, to some, I mean, listen, like there's a couple things, I mean, you were a couple things, I remember when you said initially that it sounds to me that you have to be a very good listener or you can learn, I guess, how to listen better, but the voice. I mean, if you don't have, you know, like you talk about having the voice is so much more important than the words, and when you talk to somebody is a tonality in how you speak. You talk about the DJ, you know, the nightly DJ voice and all that stuff. The latest. The latest. Yeah.

And then what were the other voices that you talk about too? Well, the natural sort of default voices, like, you know, the analyst voice, the late night FM DJ, analyst is a little cold. And with your late night FM DJ, you don't want it to be cold. You know, you want there to be some warmth in there. But the other two, the third of, you don't want it to be cold. You know, you want there to be some warmth in there, but the other two, the sort of, you know, the sort of is just direct and honest. Like, I'm going to tell you what I want just because it's quickest. I'm just, let me just tell you what I want. If you think of yourself as a direct

and honest person, you know, what you are is blunt force trauma. My natural type is assertive, direct and honest. And I once had a hostage negotiator, very talented hostage negotiator, when I was being myself, say to me, dealing with you is like getting hit in the face with a brick. You know, your third voice kind of tough. And then there's the combinators voices,

the smiling voice, the voice is happy to see you then there's the accommodators voices, the smiling voice. The voice that's happy to see you and it's just friendly and they smile and you smile back. And you know, there's a tactical advantage to each one of these and you accommodate his voice is you're smarter in a positive frame of mind. You're 31% smarter as a matter of fact. And so if you use that voice, you're both smarter. So there's an advantage to that. My daughter-in-law, she from marketing to my company. She's a natural born analyst. I mean, like in an analyst, deep down inside, they are analytical, as one might imagine.

They're assasps. I mean, they will, death weights in a dark. They'll shoot you from a thousand yards away. You never know what hit you She is very smart and Learned how much better she could do by seeming bubbly and happy and you talked to her and she laughs and she giggles And she's one of the most pleasant people you ever met spectacular deals by just smiling and laughing.

So there's tactical advantages to each one. But what I find, this is the thing, with everything that we're going to talk about today, about how to, about listening, about labeling, mirroring, whatever, it's also the thing that I found, it's knowing when to use which tactic, right? Like these are all tactics that you're going to be using for negotiating. And you have to have enough, you have to know when to use what or else it becomes, it becomes kind of, it's irrelevant, you know. I was watching, but I found very interesting.

I was watching more than just a bunch of interviews I saw that you were doing. I was watching a lot of your interviews or the presentations that you were doing with companies a lot of the time. And watching other people try to perform a lot of the different tactics that you talk about in your book, never split the difference. And it came off like awkward, right?

Because they don't have the same practice apparently obviously as you. But I was thinking to myself like, I don't know if I was the person that was the terrorist and I was listening to this, Bozo Sacer and things, I wouldn't listen. You know, that's what I was thinking. Like you have to have no when and how to do it.

Yeah, and there's only one way to find out with practice. When we tell people at the time, I tell people small stakes practice for high stakes results. You can get your small stakes practice every day opportunities. Like I took my, I still have the salsa red pearl toilet of four runner from,

I talk about the it in the book. In the book, yeah. You know, I took that in for service today. So, you know, I got to, I got to use the little practice. I still need my practice. I get some practice in with the service guy at Toyota. I got a little bit of practice in with the lift driver. You know, I'm a little bit of practice.

You know, these guys think I'm friendly. I'm practicing. Yeah, right. You're practicing, right? So I guess, let's talk about, let's talk about the tactics in general, because you kind of go through a lot of them, and you say that empathy is extremely important. It has a big concept in your book, having empathy is a really important thing to have when you're negotiating, even the matter if it's a hostage or a real life situation.

Can you talk about why empathy is so important in a negotiation and the benefits of having it, of using it versus or having it? Yeah, using it. Yeah, let's talk about using it. You know, because if you get into the discussion of having it, you get into a convoluted discussion, it just really doesn't do any good. Because empathy has become conflated with sympathy or compassion in today's vernacular and it is not. It is not.

I mean, the reason that I first started, you know, I took our skills as an FBI hostage and go share a start to collaborate with Harvard, which because a really smart guy named Bob Manouken wrote a book called Beyond Winning Bob was, and I think still is, in charge of the program on negotiation. And his book about negotiation is just empathy is not sympathy is not compassion, it's not even liking or agreeing. It's just identifying where the other side is coming from. And I read that and I thought, well, this is cool.

Harvard, near the iron, on the exact same sheet of music on empathy. It's not sympathy. It's not compassion. Because if you take it out of that definition, then you can use it on anybody. Period. It then becomes an unlimited skill. I have to have sympathy for you to have empathy, now I got my hands tied behind my back.

And it's an API hostage negotiator. By definition, I'm probably not gonna have sympathy for the person I'm talking to. I'm not. Right. You know, if those were the preconditions, who's the hostage negotiator gonna be able to talk to? Cause I ain't never gonna be a hostage negotiator on the other end of the phone.

We need an unlimited skill that works with everybody. Go ahead, go ahead. Oh no, please, I was just going to say that like, how do you find, I mean, it must be something again that takes a lot of practice to find something that you could be empathetic about when a guy is a terrorist and you're trying to negotiate. All right. So where is the terrorist coming from? You could be empathetic to a terrorist right now.

What's their emotional state? Probably angry. There you go. Angry. So now you got empathy for a terrorist. They're angry. That's empathy. That's a demonstration of understanding where the other side's coming from. Okay So then let me when would you take that emotion which is anger and then you talk a lot in the book about

Labeling an emotion that you're that you see right so you say I see I see or I sense that you have anger Let's say I see or I sense that you have anger. Let's say you were the I know I've got it down a little bit. We're going to award Smith that a little bit. Okay. Because every word has an impact. Now I is a centering word. And if I say I sent you a vanger, then you're focused a little bit more on yourself than I come to. If I say you sound angry, now I'm much more focused on them. It's more disarming to them for me to focus on them as opposed to me in that context. Right. So I'm going to go with the second. I'm not going to say I sent you a vanger.

I'm going to say, sound angry. Those are two, those will hit the brain in two different ways. In this context, I'm going to want to go with the second. Now, if I've made a man agree, or from their perspective is that I personally have made a man, then I'm going to do another adjustment. I'm going to I personally have made a man. Then I'm gonna do another adjustment, I'm gonna say I've made you angry. And now that's gonna have another impact because what's the other side of the perception that I made a man agree, that I'm accountable, that I'm responsible.

And that's where it becomes really tricky because nothing about empathy in anybody's definition says that an other side's perspective is either accurate or fair. By definition, if they're human, it's going to contain inaccuracies. And some people say, well, I can't. I didn't make you angry, so I'm not going to say I made you angry. Well, you're not admitting you made a man. You know, like, God help me. I'm getting ready to wait into some of the white privilege conversations that have taken book on Facebook, taken place on Facebook right now. And somebody that thinks that white privilege is a scam, you know, it's an insult. It's patently insulting. It's incredibly insulting.

I'm going to say to him, you know, you feel this is an incredible insult. That's not me agreeing. That's me demonstrating empathy. Or acknowledging where they're feeling. Now you're getting to it. Right. You can ignore. where they're feeling. Now you're getting to it. Right. You can make no, it's acknowledgement. Yeah. But what you could, a lot of times what can happen is if you say, I feel or I sense that you're getting angry, the other person can also get their back up and be like, don't tell me what you, you know, what I am. Okay. I'm a stop. You're right there. Okay. I'm gonna stop you right there. Okay. Literally, literally.

That's happened to me one time in 10,000. It's only one. Yeah. Wow. So, and here's what people do when they start getting concerned about communication skill that might blow up on. No one has a communication skill

that works all the time Every word out of your mouth might blow up on So well, I can see how that could go bad That's in no way shape or form ever a legitimate reason to not try anything Because for you to use that as for anybody use that as an argument is say, well, you get something that works all the time and you don't. So what kind of world do we live in? We don't live in a world of perfection.

Even though I live in Vegas, I've been using this analogy forever. We live in a lost Vegas world. Once you start bad and better than 51%, the beautiful, gorgeous buildings built in Vegas that sustain the Steve Windsor, the world, who are billionaires based on a 51% effectiveness rate. Now, by and large, our skills run dependent upon the context, like what, one in 10,000 went bad. That's a high effectiveness rate. Now here's what happened in a purpose for the structure of

the statement. I once said to an FBI agent in training, you sound angry and he looked at me and he screamed, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Because I got an automatic fallback position. Every word that I used was pre-selected and I already know my fallback position. I said, I didn't say you were angry. I said you sound angry. Right. It was inarguably true. And it stopped them, deadness tracks. And it stopped you. I let him yelling, and he looked down. And he looked back up. And then he complied with what I was trying to get him to do. And he walked away without saying another word. Walked up to me the next day with a short speech about how he felt

I had such insight into his personal history based on two senses. Sound angry and say say you were angry since seven. You know what, it's interesting because I feel like the language that you use would be very important, right? Because that's that you're choosing to use a word you sound versus I think or whatever it is. Right. Yeah, you know, in even your book, you talk about this, the words that you use is not that important.

It's way more important than tone of your voice. So you can, sounds to me, could say anything you want if your tone is the right, if you pick and choose the right tone. Well, you get a lot of latitude. I mean, you know, the bridge got a great, great saying. You can be as rude as you want as long as you're polite about. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. It's not about tone of voice. And my colleagues, you know, all of us that were team leaders, like if a person's got a great tone of voice, I'll put them on a phone. You know, they get darn near and get away with anything with a great tone of voice. I mean, your latitude for saying a wrong thing is massive.

Now, we're going to want the teacher to say the right thing, you know, and it's a little bit of the whole debate over the 738. 55 ratio of content to tone of voice to body language. Right. You know, that even even if because 7 738 55 equals 100 to 3 together is the entire of the message. I get no sure as a people saying like, wow, you know, 7% that makes words seem irrelevant. Like you can't say that. It's worth way more than 7. And I'll say, I put a number on it. Well, I can't put a number on it. It's way more than seven. And so I'll say, I try this on for sides. I said to you, that was an insightful comment. I said it and that was a compliment. I'll take the same words. That was an insightful comment. That was an insult.

I didn't change the words at all. I just changed my tone of voice. I made the words 0% important. Right. So, you know, people get bent out of shape over the 7%. It's like a DNA chain or molecule. Can you say H2O, the molecule for water? Can you say that hydrogen is twice as important as oxygen? Well, you take oxygen out, you haven't got water any longer. So people get really bent out of shape over the importance of the words. And it's about alignment. And it's about what gives you the most latitude.

And ton of voice gives you way more latitude than in the words themselves Way more latitude and then the other and then like let's go let's talk about the listing piece because You know when I saw I mean it when you see in the movies right and you talk and you talk even in the book You talk about this you have 20 people on a call you have like you know there Now is that is that what you just see? I mean is that kind of inflated like do you really have that many people in on a call. You have like, you know, there are now, is that is that what you just see? I mean, is that kind of insulated like do you really have that many people on a call at any given time when you're dealing with the hostage situation or terrorists or a situation or business situation. If you give me seven people, I'll put them all in the same room, we'll go on a call and everybody will have a different

job and everybody will pick up something in that conversation that the other people they need. Okay, and I understand that, right? Because I know active listening is not as easy. You have to focus and be honed in on something. For example, me, I would lose my attention in 10 seconds. But I'm saying, and actually a lot of people do, it's very hard to listen actively for a long period of time. But without practice, it's hard.

Without practice. But all of this, everything you talk about in your book or in general's practice, like you said yourself, you don't have to have a neat talent. It's a talent that can be home and with practice, anything, all these things, all these tactics. And I'm going to interrupt your thought, Charlie, for just a second. So please remember where you were going with that because I want to make a comment on practice. Okay.

Yeah, it takes a lot of practice for excellence. However, your biggest gains will be initial. So as soon as you get some practice in, you're going to make some massive jumps right away. You're going to need additional practice for two reasons because to continue to get better because without the practice, deterioration, hurts in immediately. It's like running.

Like you don't work yourself in the condition, you're like, all right, so I'm in shape. Now I don't got to run anymore. No, you got to do maintenance. Consistency is what I think you need. A lot to the consistency is very important. Yeah. Right. So practice and consistency.

And what I was going to say is, like, you know, like I said, I've never been in one of your situations and I've never been around you when you've been negotiating with the hostage, but with the FBI, although I would like to, do they ever take people so I can, you know, just, you know, people who are just curious to kind of go along and listen in as well, I think it'd be fascinating. Do you have right-alongs? Is that be fascinating. Do we have right-alongs? Yeah, do you have right-alongs? Now, you've got that reason to be a room professional.

We have to be able to articulate what you would be a value add. We've had non-law enforcement in the room, but they're usually therapists or psychologists, something along those lines. How we could articulate that it's a value A. Oh, okay. So just being a curious, you know, regular person doesn't really, doesn't really like hold any kind of mustard over there. No, no running out of the loud on those. Okay.

Well, this is what I was going to say. Like in the movies that from what all I can see is that, you know, you don't have time to sit there and like, kind of like do a huddle and be like, okay, tell me everything, like give me your spreadsheet of why this is, you know, what you heard and give me a, you know, an Excel spreadsheet over there, you know, listener number two.

Things are happening super quickly that how do you know what the other person is even doing and thinking? Don't you have to kind of, do you have a period where you guys can huddle or are people just taking notes and texting people on the regular to kind of get the information around? Well, you're gonna wanna get your huddles in,

but there are some people who are taking notes on large pieces of paper that are on the walls. So you can, you know, the person is talking on a phone can look around and see the notes in specific categories. But it's distracting. Don't you have to be focused. Like, if I had to keep on looking over there to see a note that Joe Blow was writing, I would lose my focus on what the terrorist was saying to get back to his, the place

where he trusts me and I feel and he thinks that I'm listening and that I'm empathetic and that I'm, you know, paying attention. Like, don't you get distracted when all these other people are chiming in? Well, the degree of distraction starts with how your primary sense is hardwired and just give you real short down a dirty brief. About 60% of the world, their primary senses are vision, about 30% is their hearing, and 10% is touch taste smell feel. So for me, sounds are the biggest distraction because that's what hits my brain first. My primary sense is my hearing. I can have all sorts of chaos,

visually, it's not going to break my train of thought. Somebody who's on the phone, if their primary senses are vision, now all the things that you were just talking about are distractions. And that requires some training to overcome. So it starts with how you're wired and then after that, it's, again, it's, it's practice. It's any skill. And how, like, what was the longest negotiation that you've been involved with? Well, kidnappings with terrorists tend to run longer lengths of time. The, you know, kidnapping in Columbia, where three Americans were grabbed, they were held for six years. There were hostages that were intermingled with them. That were held for longer.

Ingrid Benton Court was with them. She was in there. I think seven years, there was a pub, there's been an American retired FBI agent that they're pretty sure is dead now, that was held by Iran for Bob Levinson. He was there for his kidnapping start-up while I I was they grabbed him when I was still in a barrel about 2002 or so and I think that he was he 15 16 years before he finally died in captivity. So if the people on the other side of the table have any kind of infrastructure, whether

they be a terrorist group, terrorist groups tend to have infrastructures, right? It could be helpful for years. His baller, when I went to kidnapped and business in Bay Group in the 80s, you know, they're holding people for years. Terry Anderson, who I met personally, when he was released, he met his six-year-old daughter for the first time, because his fiance was pregnant when he had grabbed and he was held for six years So terrorists terrorists stop can last for use Chrono happens to go much shorter

So how long would be like the one that you were talking with the one in Manila with that terrorist? How long did that with that got a they had a guy name? I can't remember his name right now Jeff I think was his first name. They're telling I think was his first name. That was eight months. That was eight months. So then, how does it, like, can you just, I'm curious, walk me through like you're on the phone with them for what like from eight to five, then you call back the next day,

or is it, how does it work? Are you, what do you do? You know, it's crazy, but the terrorists, if they're out in jungle, when are they gonna get on a phone? When a son comes up. So you need to be expecting a call anytime after about 5.30 in the morning.

Because if you're out in a jungle, and the rooster started crawling about 5.36 o'clock in the morning, and they're gonna get up, they're gonna wash their face, gonna make a phone call, which is my money. Wow. And I get, when a son goes down,

it's dark in a jungle. They make a phone call, so they have no job calls. It make a phone call, it's not in a jungle. Right, exactly. You need me. But like, how do you call? We're not on a phone all day. Kidnapping's you're not on a phone all day every day.

You know, like, what are you doing? Like, tell me, walk me through it a day and a life would be there. You're on the phone, do you go for lunch and then say, okay, I'm going to be out. Like, it's not like a regular office job. So how does it work? Now, well, I mean, you're analyzing the conversation for a few hours, you're breaking it down, you're going to go back over two or three times,

you're going to create a structure, you know, you got to take a temperature, it's like the weather. Weather's going to change every day, but you can get a pretty good prediction on what tomorrow's probably going to look like. So you're doing an analysis very much like a weather analysis. I mean, everybody likes to make fun of how wrong weather meant a wrong, how often weather meant a wrong.

Right. Weather meant a right about 90% of the time. Like, I can go on my acu weather app right now, get a pretty good idea what temperature is going to be like two o'clock to my I don't know and whether or not it's going to be rain. So, but the assessment is ongoing. So you're going to assess the situation, you're going to pull a lot of information there. The alphabet, the alphabet soup of the federal government is going to be involved in international kidnapping, the O.D. Department of Defense. they got intel guys, you got the agency, they're intel guys. You got, they're gonna be intel,

everybody's got intel guys, everybody's got information. So, you're not taking your foot off the gas as far as work goes. You might not be talking about others, I mean, you're not working. Like, how do they even know your phone number and even get to you? Like, how does all the little minutias of the situation?

So then you do all your analysis and then you say, okay, it looks like tomorrow, we're going to get a call from this guy around 6am. So do you have someone available to answer the phone at 6am just in case? Or how does even have your number? Like, you do like log, like just like logistical things. Well, actually, you know, in point of fact, what we're gonna do is we're gonna coach somebody. Okay.

We're gonna find a family member or a friend or colleague. We're gonna look for the most coachable person. And then we're gonna bend the conversation at direction. Our bad guys are gonna start reaching out for points of contact also They want to talk to somebody so they're gonna find somebody I you know if the person they found is not coachable and we're gonna find a way to switch the conversation. Oh But we're gonna schedule the conversation too, you know, we're gonna put it We're gonna you know and we're gonna we're gonna make an a conversation too. We're going to put it, you know, and we're going to make an appointment to talk.

Now that sounds insane. Yeah. Your regular life, you got trouble getting appointments as it is now. Let alone get an appointment with a terrorist and I have a move. You're on a phone on the other end. I could barely get an appointment with my dentist, never mind a terrorist. You know, like, it sounds crazy. But if you were your dentist's sole patient,

it would be much easier. And you wanted, and at the time you wanted, was gonna help your dentist get paid. Absolutely. Then that dentist was gonna make that appointment. And so what you gotta do is you gotta pitch it to the bad guy, it's at the time that we wanna talk is going to help them get paid. And be like, all right, we'll call it 10. And then how long could these calls, what's the longest call that you've

had? Well, you know, they're going to be on the phone to get a yes or no on the money. Right. We're going to want them to have them on a phone much long. Because we're going to want to develop influence, subtle influence, the thing that they're going to be, it's going to be invisible to them. It's not different from a business negotiation. You want to develop a work and relationship where you have influence. Right. So we're going to get, we're going to get pretty good at keeping them on a phone a little bit longer, but not to the point where they get anxious because a real rule of human communication that everybody overlooks is the last impression

is the last impression. The most important impression is the first impression and assumes that, well, I made a great first impression, I'm going to make a great last impression. Not true. And the first impression, no matter how good it is, is not as important as the last impression. Just second most important impression, which makes number one a last impression. So in any given communication, you don't want the other side feeling anxious at the end of the call because the last impression is the

last impression. People don't remember what you said. They remember how you made a feel. You always make them feel anxious at the end of the interaction. You're going to guarantee they don't want wanna talk to you. That's such a true point, right? Like how many times do you meet somebody and you think, oh, they seem fine and nice and then as you get to know them more, you're, they annoy you and then that's what you're left with.

And then you never, like you like dismiss them because of that. It's, if it's not the biggest problem and human communication, it's in the top three Because what do we know? You know people are fighting to get in the last word What causes people to fight to get in the last word when the last words achieve chat You're jerk. No, you're jerk. No, you're jerk

You're fighting to get in the last negative impression, which if you give it some thought, that's so stupid. Right. But it's so invisible, nobody realizes. I mean, we're an interaction with about, probably about four years ago, with a company that we're determined in a relationship with. And this woman did all the stupid stuff, which is shocking because they had been a facilitator

of our training. So she was aware of bad habits. So she started, ah, dealing with you guys, been wonderful, you know, spent on productive for us. We made a lot of money. You made a lot of money. And then it's steadily deteriorated through the email. Till, you made these promises, you broke these promises, you said you wanted to be partners,

and the last line in her email was some partnership. And then she signed a name and that was it. The last impression was a cheap shot. And I remember thinking like How do you think that's a great way to close the whole reason you're writing to females because we haven't got a great relationship as it is With all this flowery stuff up front Wonderful. I love you. It's been great by That's not That only carries you to the next sense. Right. And if you get to the left and then your cheap shout at the end,

like that is so stupid, which is one of the reasons why we're not doing business with you anymore. Right. Right. Right. And that's when the motion gets the better of you. Right. It's a control that emotion that like that knee jerk reaction, right? That's what you're doing. Emotion, yeah, absolutely because it builds with you and the other thing as as a negative emotion builds the funny thing about it is Your self-righteousness increases With your negative like there's an old phrase out, never give a speech when you're angry because it'll be the greatest speech you ever regret. Right. Yeah.

The downward spiral of anger and self-righteousness, which again is very much the conversation is taking place on Facebook today. Yes. Self-righteous, angry self-righteous. Everybody's self-righteous and everybody's angry. And downward spiral in these conversations. I know, I agree. They need you on Facebook. Maybe you can help negotiate. I think you should go back into, like, you know, well, actually go back into the government.

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Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. I was gonna say to you something that, you know, you are always talking about no, you don't believe in compromise though. So. Absolutely. That's the way. How?

Is that, listen, how was that possible? In like real life or in business, right? I think it's, I thought that was so such an interesting thing to even read about because that's, it's kind of like a platter to that everyone always says, you know, like, you know, we need to compromise, we've got to find a compromise. We've got to find a compromise. It's like everyone's just like go to statement. Right.

Why do you hate, okay, so why do you not like compromise and what can you do instead of compromising to make parties feel that they haven't been taken over the coal, so to speak? Are you willing to compromise your integrity? Me? Yeah. No. But I thought you said compromise was good. Well, as I said, does it matter what you're compromising?

Can you, I mean, my integrity, maybe I won't compromise, but let's say, you know, certain other things, you know, I want to make $100, you only want to pay me $50, so we're going to settle on $99. I'm just joking, on like 75. So if I want to make $100, all I'm going to do is say I want $200, and I'm just joking on like 75 You know, so if I want to make a hundred dollars all I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say I want 200 I'm gonna compromise and take 100 and I will have completely suckered you and gotten what I wanted Every step of the way. I just lied But don't people know I mean at this let's just go let's operate on the plane that everyone knows that everyone does that right We're all gonna start high and try to get to a place that's more where we want.

Here's where, first of all, the top negotiators do not do that. What did they do? Tell me what they do. That's why I have you here. Well, the top negotiators, they realize that that's a game and it's a game of deception. And deception is not one of their operating principles. Either you're either you're a little bit pricked,

how can you be a little bit pricked? You can't be. No, so that deception is very much the same way. Yeah, no, I tell the truth except when it's not to my advantage, then I tell. But I tell the truth, but except if it's not to my advantage. And wait a minute, you don't tell the truth. Right.

There's all sorts of deception. And so that starts with you saying like okay, so there are circumstances I could deceive that's all right. That's a slippery slope That catches up with you It's going to catch up with you long term costs of deception are High and most of the people that are not into it, they learn the hard way. Like this is cost to me. The other side's gonna find out I lied to him regularly about what I wanted just to get them to the position I wanted them to be in. That's eventually gonna come out. I'm not a believer in using a negotiation concepts that I have to hide from the other side because I'm ashamed of.

using a negotiation concept that I have to hide from the other side because I'm ashamed. But compromise is different in deception, right? Like you're saying you don't believe in compromise in what? So what happens if you are a good... Let's parse this out a little bit because you talk about two different kinds of compromise. The first one was a fake compromise so I could end up where I wanted to a lot. Now let's talk about actual compromise. Actual compromise always waters down the solution, always. I mean, I don't have, I have yet to come across somebody that said, wow, we compromised

and it was wonderful. Our compromise led to the greatest solution we could ever have imagined far better than we if Compromise was a good idea In the American Congress We would live in Nirvana. There would be no economic problems. There would be no social problems Our taxes if we paid them at all would be extremely low and everybody would be happy and There would instead of painting on Pennsylvania Avenue saying black lives matter, the painting would say Congress is wonderful because it's already compromised and we love

Congress. Right. So the spirit of compromise is the idea should be the spirit of collaboration. I can give you massive example after example of how compromised destroyed the original attempt one of my favorite ones these days is Colin Kaepernick Colin Kaepernick started taking a knee as a compromise He was originally refusing to stand for the national anthem. So he sat Now he met Nate Boyer and Nate Boyer who was a I think May have played in the NFL, but he was also a special. Yeah.

He was also an NF, I know him. He was a bachelor for my Babes for Boobs auction that I do for charity. I just blew my mind with that. We've been and I didn't go there. But anyway. I have a, I have a breast cancer charity I started with my best friend to raise money for breast cancer. I auction off bachelors. Yes. And it's my way of giving back. Yes. And Nate Boyer this year for charity.

Sold men for charity. I sell men for charity from beginner dates. And I sold Nate Boyer to one of my best friends actually. How funny is that? I did it go? I got to know. It went well. Go ahead. She paid $3,000 for dinner. All the money went to breast cancer. It's very, a lot of people do it for the actual charitable contribution. And they had a good time from what I understand, but that's so weird that you mentioned Nate Boyer of all the people that you just said.

Yeah, my impression is from only what I've read in the media is a great dude. He's really nice. I like him. He's a great guy. He's a really nice guy. He works for the NFL network and he did play for the NFL for one year and he was like a special forces guy. That's exactly his resume his bio

So they goes to Capone Wow, yeah, just look as a as a special forces guy. I could take a knee At the grave of a fallen camera as a sign of respect Now Capone to his credit was touched by this and So he started taking a knee as a sign of respect Who that's opposed to kneeling sees it as a sign of respect? That's what compromised us. Hmm Gotcha, that makes sense. So is the better not to do anything you what rather walk away or just Stick to your own guns and just to you just to bend a little on something that you really hardly believe in

No, I say you know never split the difference. That's a double-edged sword You might be right I got to be willing to hear you out and be willing to be open to the idea that you might be smarter than me or you might have a better solution than I do. And if I, it's revealed to me that you have a better solution. Am I going to refuse to accept that because my ego is in a way? You know, that's my mom had a great face cut off my nose despite my face. You know, that's, I'm hurting me out of ego. I'm in my way. I'm holding myself. So, let me split the difference. The idea is if I want you to be willing to accept that I'm

completely right, I had an extra offer. You say, I can live by your rules. Can you? Then I have to be able to accept that you might be right and I've got to get out of my own way because you might be right. Now we're talking and now the likelihood is that we'll actually find a solution that not one of us envisioned. That's where this is going. No, I like that. When you even talk about it in the book, I found it, when you gave some examples, it's 100% true because when you walk away with that feeling of, wow, I kind of bend on this

and everyone ends up unhappy at the end of the day when you do it that way. It's a throw away that everyone always, again, like a platitude, everyone just says, yeah, you've got to compromise, you've got to compromise. You know, and you do that a lot actually, a lot of the things like, you know, even when you say, you know, the best negotiation always starts with the word no, right? And like, it's like when you think, when you first hear it, I'm like, what?

And then when you think about it and you explain it, it makes such, it makes such a good sense to why, right? such good sense to why. I'm happy to hear that. Yeah, you're welcome. But it's true, it's like, when you say, when you hear that's right, when you hear the two words, that's right, you know you're on the right track. Can we talk a little bit about that a little bit

about how, Okay, good. So yeah, go ahead, the floor yours. Well, you know, that's right. It's always a good sign from the other side. It tells you that to some degree, you're connecting, establishing a relationship, they feel hurt and understood. And you can, you can, you can get, you know, that's right. You get a great big giant. That's right. You get a great big giant. That's right. The other side is bonded to you. I mean bonded with nearly,

I don't know, I took nearly to an unbreakable degree. Like picking charismatic leader, it doesn't matter which one. You know, I use the current president of the United States as an example, but the guy succeeded. He's charismatic leader as well. They had unshakable followers. There were some people on earth that no matter what

Barack Obama could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue, they'd still support it. And like Trump said, I shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue, my supporters are still back me up. What a lot of people don't like him hate about that statement is true. It's true, exactly. It's in time. Donald Trump said something that they heard and they went, that's right. said something that they heard and they went, that's right. That's what a person says when they're all in,

when they believe that what the other person has said is the unequivocal, well, truth, it's inarruable, it's clarity, it's, they made as well, got it from on high. When you're all in, is what somebody said, people say, that's right. Now look at what's happened to the followers of the charismatic leader. They will ignore all other evidence to the contrary.

Doesn't matter how much comes at him, they stay bonding. And that's the advantage of getting a that's right out of somebody. If you get a massive that's right, in point of fact, we referred to it as the oxytocin event. Oxytocin is a self-generated drug. It's the bonding drug. It's the bonding, it's the drug that you get a hit of when you see your newborn child for the first time. It's the bonding drug. It's the way there's an Australian zoologist who got baby geese to bond to him

Just because he made sure he was standing there when they picked her way out of the show It's something like mama and they're following around like he's a mother It's that strong of a bond You give somebody gets a good solid hit of oxytocin in your presence They are bonded to you and that's what that five star that's right is all about. I get you bonded to me. We're going to work this out and because you're bonded to me and you're going to forgive me for mistakes. And when I make mistakes, you're going to you're going to slough it off. You're going to continue to work with me because I we had that bonding moment and that's why in the book, you know, the filling case you were talking about before, we got, we got a

five star oxytocin event out of our terrorist. When it was all over, and the hostages walked away, what's the significant of that? That means terrorists think it paid. Terror's got nothing. We can a half later, the terrorist calls the negotiator, he was talking to on the phone, the guy was coaching who got the debt right out of him and said, you know, you're really good, they should promote you. That's the power of a bonding, one of those bonding moments. I mean, I think that's, that's right.

Actually, that now I'm saying it to you. That's right. When you say describe that it is a hundred percent true. That is exactly how it happens, right? Because that you feel you make the other person feel understood that and they feel that they would they've been listened to and that you someone understands them and everybody wants to feel like they've been that they are understood and being listened to and you're tapping into that and your brain into their brain. And that's it. Yeah, and like we in my company these days, we're even going to talk about psychology. We talk about neuroscience and in neuroscience, we always talk about the neurochemicals that are released because you're going to have a tremendous

amount of speculation about what parts of the brain are involved at different times. Like, I read a study the other day, they're trying to map what it does to you to not be understood. They're focusing on the organic components of the brain and the different names of, you know, the hippocampus and all nonsense. And so it's math and academic study. God knows what it nonsense. And so this massive academic study, God knows what it cost. And their conclusion was, not being understood might make you feel bad. I'm like, wait, what are you supposed to do with that?

That's what it said? That's not, I mean, I'm looking at it. I'm like seriously. But now on the other hand, if I say, not being understood triggers your body's release of cortisol, which is a stress hormone, which causes the fight or flight reaction, which by definition destroys a relationship. Now you're going like, oh, well, that's information I could use because I know what cortisol it is. Right. And you know one of our principal endeavors in today's world is to live in our bodies dumping of cortisol into into our system because it's harmful.

Or if I say if you feel understood, then you get a head of oxytocin. And oxytocin is the bonding drug. You're like, ooh, yeah, I can use that information. Or I got another one for you that I really like. Okay. If you correct me, you get a head of dopamine. Yeah, that's a good one too. Yeah.

Dopamine is cocaine. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna like it so much that you can't wait to do it again. Yeah, that's a good one too. Yeah. Dopamine is cocaine. And you're going to like it so much that you can't wait to do it again. Which means you're going to stand at conversation with me. And you're going to want to repeat it. If the last impression is the last thing in question, and as a result of the last impression, you got to hit a dopamine, then you're going to pick up the phone every time I call.

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with all the tactics? It's knowing when, I think I began this, it's knowing when to use which tactic, and it has to be, you have to be, you have to know, you have to have the training, I guess, to practice, the consistency to know when to utilize what to get to that point. You know, the real critical issues occurs to make mistakes. And one of my favorite stories on making mistakes, director business development for my company,

young lady named David. David is a superstar. I mean, a superstar. this is development from my company. Young lady named David. David is a superstar. I mean a superstar. She's a young millennial Mormon. What difference does that make? She goes on a Mormon mission to Ecuador. She got to learn Spanish. She's in a Spanish.

And I say, yeah, well, it's gonna be awkward when you get down there, because for you to get to conversational Spanish, in reality, the person's coach and I said, you're going to have to make 10,000 mistakes and it's going to take you about a year to make 10,000 mistakes. And Davey said, oh, what if I just make the mistakes faster? She gets conversational in eight weeks because not only only is she welcoming mistakes but she sees

miss each mistake as a success so she's getting a dopamine hits by doing it wrong and she gets all her mistakes in and she's fluent conversation she's conversational she's made a years progress in eight weeks by getting her time in and seeing mistakes as not as punishment, but it's, I just got to make 10,000 mistakes and I'm going to have it. So she, you know, if you launch all in, you can get really good, really fast as long as mistakes are not a deterrent, but, you know, scoring points on the board to get you there faster. but, you know, scoring points on a board to get you there faster. But how would you, okay, so, like, you know, you have this thing, you have silence is also super important, right?

People think that they have to be talking, talking, talking. Yep. This silence part, the labeling, the mirroring. Also another one that I thought was, I wanted to talk to, but it was the calibrated questions, you know, always, it's basically an open-ended question, right? Like, how, or is it, when do you use what to get to the goal at, or to get to the that's it? Well, you know, what, what's a great question for revealing obstacles? Principally, I mean, you can use it in other ways, but as a designator, you need

to reveal an obstacle. Like, if you ask me a question a lot more, what's more important as your question, then your question is what's causing you to ask? The question behind a question is a thousand and one people would have said, if you ask me a question for me to give you a really smart answer, my best response is what makes you ask? So what's the next step? What's the biggest problem we face? What's getting in our way? What is the principally, if you're going to ask a question to reveal something, it's great

for revealing obstacles. And that's why we talk about calibrated questions because what are we calibrating? What are we designing the question to do? If it's to reveal an obstacle in a very deferential fashion because there's great power and defence, then we're going to use it, use a what question? That's, that's, that's, it's principle design. Now, calibrate questions, aka open into questions, also require in-depth thinking, which can be good and bad. So, a Daniel Conerman would call system two thinking, in-depth thinking.

In-depth thinking is fatigue. I can use a word question to intentionally fatigue you without you knowing that's what I'm doing to you. If I really need an answer, I'm not going to get a good answer after lunch on any given day because even if you don't eat lunch, you get more fatigued in the afternoon because your circadian rhythm kicks in, plus you're starting to suffer from the season., I need to, I probably need to use my word questions in the morning. We get a lot of gas in the tank and give me good ants. So context strategy, situation drive strategy.

What am I trying to accomplish? What kind of dynamics have I got on the other side at a bare minimum what time it is? And then, okay, so is that how you start? Okay, so I got two parts to this kind of. So you want people to start with, you want to, when you talk to them, you want them to start with no, so that's easier to get to a yes with. But also you say it also gives a person a feeling of control and power when they say no at the beginning, right?

So if they start with, so you have to be, you have to be fruit enough to know what, what to ask them to even get to, for that no question. It's about like, it's about wordsmithing what you want to ask them. So it becomes, it starts with a no, right? So like you say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, I say, like you, like a lot of this in the book is like, if you, when you call somebody and you say, am I catching you at a bad time, you know, or, or you say, can you talk, and whatever, or can you talk now, or it's like just tweaking it a little bit.

So someone starts with the no, so they feel the power. And then they ask you something and you can be like, you know, if they want to get away car or whatever, you're like, well, how do you expect me to get to do that car? Or? Right. But my point is, I guess I'm losing my train, my train is off. My point is,

My answer to him about changing the questions to none. Well, first, as much as you need the question to know, but like, again, what's the protocol, the pattern? Like, you start with what part to go to the next part? Because you say like you first do this, then you do the calibrated question, then you shut up and have silence. Like all those pieces, you know, like when you think,

when you're thinking about it, it's hard to be in the moment, I guess, is my point. But all of these. How practical it in the moment, I guess, is my point. But all of these. A practical thing is, yeah, without practice in it. So can you just walk me through what you would do, like to say to get to that, which is more important? For example, for the yeses, right?

You say, for the no, there's three different types of yeses. You say, right? People can just say whatever they want to you, just to kind of get you off the phone, right? The counterfeit yes. Let's talk about that. Like you start with the no. And then to get them to the proper that's right,

there's all these different yeses. I'll fix that. All right. Now, and I get to tell you something, we didn't deemphasize yes, enough in the book. I mean, we're at the point now where we're like, get out of yes entirely. Yes, it's so problematic that it's just simpler to leave the word alone. Every single question that you designed to get either confirmation or commitment, yes.

And a lot of people were throwing a confirmation, yes. Nobody ever asked you to confirm anything unless they've taken you. And everybody's been burned. You know, those saying, once bitten twice shy, or I think it's an African saying somebody's been bitten by a snake is scared of ropes. You only get to get burned by saying yes a couple times, fit to become an automatic response. Cause you will always remember when you got burned. I was on a call earlier today, my son is a president

of my company, phenomenal negotiator. To this day, he remembers when he was about eight years old, that somebody got him to say yes, and the next thing you know, he'd been parted with one of his from one of his famous favorite sports cards. It's burned in his brain, how saying yes betrayed. He is never going to forget that. Everybody's got an experience whether they can call it up or they just been drilled into him so

hard when I was about 23 I bought a coupon book for $25. It was supposed to save me $25,000. I remember that coupon book. I still got that coupon book in my desk. I didn't figure out how to use any of them. Most of the coupons are not even usable. Yeah, or the person, like there are people now making a massive living buying time shares. Because of how many people got conned into buying a time share with this yes would you would you like to stay in a luxurious hotel anywhere in the world

whenever you wanted to you know the whole series of yeses so many people have been conned into those time shares that their companies that are now buying up from pennies on a dollar, because nobody can figure out how to use their time share. Because they've walked into it with yes oriented questions. So the world has been so badly burned, everybody you meet has got, not one of those experiences, probably five of them, to the point that the minute you begin to engage

in the same behavior, that the person that ripped them off did, you start triggering an alarm bells in that person. That's the problem with yes. This summer, PXU Energy is back. The ultimate summer path, starting 50% off energy charges all summer. Everybody's on for automatic energy savings. Plus free energy on the hottest day.

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and they'll later on like just like, you need a yes with a how, right? Like that's what you do. Yes, there's nothing without how. And then really yes is nothing and how is everything. Right. So you just, I mean literally literally, I'm not kidding. And we're actually working on another book right now that you'd be out early next

year. Really? And because- What's it called? The working title right now is collecting notes, the missing radio for Never Split the Difference. Okay. Okay. Okay. Because you know, we adopted a yes formula to make sure that yes wasn't counterfeit,

we say okay, well, to make sure it's not counterfeit, you got to get three solid yeses to the same question and at the same time, three in a row. And it's an evolution, what Jim Camp would have called the three plus, three SS, three times in a row. He just wanted on these yes-hoeing to questions we expanded the skill set on how to get the yeses. But people misunderstand that. I mean, we're coaching a guy in a company

and he's trying to get three separate yeses to three separate questions. And finally, we stopped him and said, what were you getting this nonsense from? He says, it's in your book. Uh, I know it's in my book and that ain't in the book. And he went to the page and goes, oh, I guess, I guess, yes, a little bit different. But I like this.

So it's close enough to what you were saying. So I'm going to do this. And then I'm going to say that you said to do it. We're like, no, that is not what we said. It's just, it's such a slippery slope to deal with yes at all. You're so much better off by instead of saying, do you agree?

I say, do you disagree? Instead of saying, does this look like something that I would work for you? I say, I said, is this horrible? Is this ridiculous? And on the same call that we're on this morning, you know, my sense is he likes to say to people, is it going to blow up the entire schedule for the week to talk to me on Tuesday afternoon? No, it's not going to blow up my schedule, but here are my

following problems. And then we're going to answer. I'll give you, here's a tricky one, which I kept to myself and tell this has been a past relationship. My ex-girlfriend, I'd come in at late in the afternoon, too late to cook dinner. We're going to order door-dice. We always order, I always order the same thing. I get the same thing, I'm going to get some cheesecake factor. I got something I want. I walk in and I fight to say, you know, how about if we order a cheesecake factor? And she's going to be like, I don't know, what do they have?

We go through a 45 minute conversation. And then we get the order cheesecake factory. So I walk in one night and I go, you against ordering a cheesecake factory? Just no. And I order right away. We got it done 45 minutes sooner than we would have. Right. No, I love that. It's a laugh because I mean, I feel like everyone goes to that same thing.

You know, we all have the same thing we order every single time. But you talk about their rent. 100%. 100%. I also have, so many how you say, and I've made a little note to myself because I actually talk about this too. How the people who are too smart

make the worst negotiators because they think they know everything. Which is probably so true, right? Could you think that you know everything that you don't have the curiosity and the ability to listen to someone else? Curiosity is one of the great tactical advantages. That's just an negotiation but the life. Yeah.

I agree with you. That's right. Now you have me forever. That's right. Now you have me forever. So how do I feel bonded to you right now? The oxygen chosen, the oxygen chosen. It's so true though, it's 100% right. And then like, hold on, I wanted to say, I wanted to kind of like, you know, circle back to something. And I think I, I feel like I could tell, like I said, I wasn't joking. I I have so many notes here that I like highlighted because I just really enjoyed reading your

book. I really did. I really found it to be unique, interesting, and some of those things were like, you know, some of common sense and so common sometimes, right? Like, it's common sense that people want to be listened to and understood and this thing would work or that thing would work. But sometimes when you see it in writing, it makes you think about it more, right? And then use it.

But another one, I was curious, why you left the black swan whole, the whole thing, but the black, like the un-no, black swan, which is the unknown unknowns, or Shen, which I'm going to ask you about right now. So, so like to the words the end, because I feel like that is so important and so like fundamental to everything else that you talk about, right? Isn't it always the devil in the details,

which make everything the most... The devil's in the details, yeah. It's devil's in the details, and then like, and that's the, that really is. Like when I saw, and then when I read about the Black Swan method, which is a name of your company too, right? Yeah, Black Swan group. I found like, well, like, there should be at the beginning

of the book because it's so important. Yeah, those are tough calls. I mean, the order of sequencing of information, and kind of crazy thing though, too sometimes, sometimes you give an answer after you've made the question burn for a while. Where you put the other position for it to be revealing moment.

And you probably have done a good job if somebody goes, ah, I wish I wouldn't have known that sooner because then that means that at that moment they got it. So that at that moment, they got it. So. That's true, you're right. In that way, you're right. Because when I read it, I'm like, of course,

this is like the secret sauce for anything. But you know, it's like to me, again, when I was in my goals, obviously, we talk, first of all, tell us what the black soul on what it is because people are gonna be listening and they're like, what the hell is they talking about? So, well, you know, it's a small piece of information that's going to make all the difference in the world.

And the really hard thing about it is it's where unknowns overlap, you know, and you use the phrase, the unknown, unknown. But it's really where the unknowns overlap because if if you know if I've got us in an any given negotiation of if I'm holding Information back Then you are and I am and so you are to There's never case when you're not which means there's never case when the other side isn't also So we have to sense of unknowns And what happens when they overlap?

That's when it gets really crazy, because you can't know until you start getting what the other side is holding back out on the table. You're by definition moving forward on faulty information. And so many people get used to, look, I know what's going on, that that is just such a self-seduction and cutting yourself off from better outcomes. So it's kind of what the blacks ones are. Have you find them? What's the best way to find them?

Well, the first thing is accept the things that exist. Let's accept the UFOs exist. Let's accept the things that exist. And that's the hardest thing for some people. And then, except that the best place to find them is at the table. Now, the real barriers not finding them, it's a lot of people hate get caught off guard. They don't want to be surprised at the table because they'll

be embarrassed and that'll burn in their brain. So they'll spend six months searching for information. They could have gotten in a 20-minute conversation if they were in a good conversation. That by definition is poor use of your time. So it's willing to be able to go in, hoping for surprises, hoping for mistakes, you know, like Davey, open, open to make a mistake. No, no, it was a good thing. If you hope for surprises, now you're going to get caught, let us off guard. If you come in with a curious approach, you're not going to get caught off guard, you're not going to get rattled. It's going to be a better interaction all the way around. And you will

accelerate through the interaction as opposed to being bogged down. What's the best way? And I had a secret service agent on recently who was really fascinating too. And we talked a little bit about lying and how you can tell when someone's lying. And I'm curious from your experience.

From your experience, what is the best ways to tell someone's lying? Well, the quickest down and dirty thing is what we refer to is the Pinocchio effect. If the more words you use, Pinocchio's nose got large, the more words you use, know Pinocchio's nose got lower more words you use like if you're lying You know you're lying So since you know you know you know you're lying. It's gonna create some insecurity and you're gonna start convincing me the sense Convincing That correlates strongly with deception now the words that I use just now were very well chosen.

Correlation and causation. It's not definitive. You got to start knowing what correlates. And then ideally, you want, if three things correlate on the same objective, you've triangulated it, you got a pretty good objective. So convincing is a real strong one. Why would I lie? Somebody's got to say that because they lie. To be honest, that's a tell that the other side is uncomfortable with the words. Now this comfort correlates, but only correlates. They might be uncomfortable with the truth.

Oh, why would I lie? Could mean a lot of things. You're going to, you know, context situation drive strategy situation drives assessment. Start looking at the other things of correlate with that. You get you get three of the line up, you get a pretty you're probably you're probably right. Probably dead on. So when people use too many words, is what you're saying, you can tell that there's a good chance that they're lying when they get defensive, which I think is a kind of. No, no, no, here's another way. Now defensiveness depends on how you interpreting the defensiveness. If I'm getting angry at you for not believing, you might interpret that as defensiveness.

Right. Anger correlates strongly with somebody being honest. Like I told you the truth, you were too stupid to not pay any attention. So if I start treating you in this conversation as if you're an idiot for not believing me, you're propped most likely, say, I is lying, but because you were offended in my approach, you know, genuine anger and not being believed correlates very strongly with somebody telling the truth. I wish I could remember the British politician, House of Commons guy, right after the Second Iraq War, he was accused of profiteering by the U.S. Congress on oil contracts, and they subpoenaed him to Congress.

Not only did he show up, but he showed up without an attorney, which is an interesting move. Wow. And all he did was berate them and finger wag at them as to why they were idiots and how stupid they were. And he presented his evidence. And he felt like his evidence for him being an honest man was sufficient and he browbeat the hell out of them for being idiots. And I thought, all right, so he showed up without an attorney. We have to show up at all because he, a British politician can ignore a congressional subpoena all day long.

And he said they told him what morons they were. I believe this guy. Right, right, right, yeah, exactly. I would believe him too. But you're saying if someone says to be honest, that could be that they're lying also. To be honest, is always an indicator that the other person is uncomfortable with what they're getting ready to say or whether they just say. Now in the FBI, when we're interviewing somebody, if I guess it to be honest, I'm like, either you were lying or you are lying now, you know, you got, I just got to figure out which one is the case.

And but having looked at it and now and seeing it show up in other places, what it is, is it's always an indicator of discomfort. I'm worried about how you're going to react to what I'm getting ready to say. So that better than 51% of the time is your lion. But the significant part of the time when like you're just, you're getting ready to tell me the truth and you're scared. And you're using it simply as a softener. So that happens enough that I don't jump the gun on the phrase to be honest the way I used to when I was conducting criminal investigations, interviews on a regular basis.

I'm not so quick to pull a trigger on that being line. I just know you're uncomfortable. I gotta figure out exactly why you're uncomfortable. Right, right, right, because I say that a lot, but I feel it's also procrastination. You do it to procrastinate, right? To get to your point, you know? You like, you like do filler words before you say your actual statement. So you're thinking of when you think about something. Yeah, it was just, it's you being aware of wanting to make your words when you land them being carefully chosen. So to me, I hear that as another indicator of discomfort.

To be honest, I'm so happy. You're progressing because when it comes out, you want to make sure it comes out exactly right. Yeah, I mean, so you were doing this for, you were in the FBI doing this for 24 years. Well, I was in 24 years. I, my last 15, I was a hostage near shit. That's a, I'm surprised you didn't burn out before that.

That's a long time to be a negotiator, I feel, isn't it? Well, for the first eight of those 15, I had other duties. So I wasn't solely focused on negotiation. The last seven, there was nothing else in my life, and I worked every day. I didn't think I was burned out, but after I got out, I went back to school, an old movie with Rodney Dangerfield, this funny blue collar comedian. Yeah, I know who he is. I love him.

Of course, I love him. Of course, I know respect. How do you think I would be? No way. Come on. I'm flattered that you think I'm that young, they wouldn't know who Ronnie Danger failed in. Your parents told you about Ronnie Danger?

Oh, yes, exactly. That's how I know. Your parents made you watch it. That's exactly. There's that oxytocin again. I'm, that's right. That's right. That's right. So amazing. You went back to school after you were a negotiator?

After when I left the bureau, there was a special program. Oh, the Harvard, right? The Harvard thing. And I could get a master's degree in a year and I could get in. I'm by pass at a test, which I probably wouldn't have passed, but based on my sort of my life credentials and I'd racked up enough life credentials that they let me in. How long will you actually on the phone as a negotiator? Because I heard you in one interview saying that you could have the least, the person who has the least experience on the phone because a person actually talking is not the most

important person. So how long are you... Well, you know, I mean, depending upon the siege, any given if it's a contained siege, you know, you know where they are, they're not getting away, they're under bank or something like that. You know, a ghost shudder should never be on a phone from one of a couple hours at a time, you're gonna need burned out. And in a single conversation, and you're gonna want to have breaks. You're not gonna want to stay in a phone the whole time And then it's also gonna correlate with how long is the person put up with time and day it is like I I back I was a backup negotiator at a local siege in Dobbs fair in New York

We when we showed up the this it had been going for 30 hours And overnight You should have been going for 30 hours and overnight. So the hostage negotiators that were on a phone were for ride. And we advocated to the commander that they bring it to more negotiators and back these guys up. And I said, you know, I'm not on your team. It's not my job to get on a phone. I'm not advocating to get on a phone.

You got to bring some more your own people. And I said, we don't have any more people. You got to get in his backup. So I went in his backup and a guy that we rotated out, I mean, he was unconscious on his feet. I mean, he was utterly burned out because he hadn't had a break in 30 hours. Oh, wow.

So, plus, he went overnight. So he probably been up for, you know, probably close to 42 hours. So it didn't his time. So he went out of gas. Don't think we had to beg out and probably less than an hour. Wow, I was gonna say don't they get annoyed on the other side, whoever the terror is

so that the counter person is, that you're switching off people, because isn't it about rebuilding a rapport and building a relationship? Don't they want the same person to be on the phone? Well, they could, and then the handoff is critical. And so, you know, how do you lessen the negative response from a handoff? And they're you know, there would be like, for example, if they're going to hand off to

me, they can say, look, Chris has been sitting here for about an hour and a half. He's heard everything. I don't have to tell him what's going on. And so he's been listening. He's been dialed in. And, you know, I'm going to go, whatever I've got to go do. And, you know, that gonna go whatever I gotta go do. And you know the steps move handoff then somebody hands me the phone with my job if we're doing a smooth handoff which we don't always do but if we are my job as a

negotiator is to say look you know Bob you know I've been here for about an hour and a half listening and here's here's here's what I got up to now and I'll repeat everything. Essentially driving for that's right right off the bat. Now if I get it wrong instead of to Bob getting a hit of oxytocin, what Bob is going to get a hit of is dopamine because that's what you get when you correct. I think of the drug drug I was after, but I got a drug that I could use anyway. You know what I mean? Attention, Kroger Shoppers. Did you know there's a world of innovative services and patient care right in store?

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may apply. For coverage, consult your health insurance company, visit the pharmacy or our site for details. That's amazing. I know I'm keeping you forever, right? I'll wrap it up in like two seconds. I'm curious with the most common question that people ask

when they find out that you were this, you know, FBI hostage and go share. Just when at a party and a dinner party, when we used to be able to do those things, was the most common thing like off the cuff that people want to know. And then we get done. Are you gonna let me tell everybody

how to subscribe to the newsletter? Absolutely, I'll let you do whatever you want. You can keep on talking for the two hours. I'm fascinated by you. Well, yeah, I got other stuff coming up on account. It was very kind of you to say, appreciate that. Yeah, the typical response, how about business community, the typical response is, first,

you know, let me tell you about this, I'm a great negotiator, let me tell you about this negotiation I had. Now anybody says that to me, I always know that it allows you to negotiate and they leave them money on the table and if somebody says, let me tell you about this negotiation. It happened a long time ago, and they beat the other side, which means they left an enemy behind them instead of a friend. And the reason I hate those stories the most is because there tends to be a response to somebody who's closed to learning by anything other than experience. While experience is a critical element of learning, if it's the only element, you are steadily deteriorating. And I hate to

see somebody not only that is steadily deteriorating, but the amount of time it's going to take me to bring a barrage. It's just not going to be worth it for me. And so I'll just go like, yeah, okay, wow, wow, wow, wow, what a great story. Nice to meet you. And then I'll go to talk to somebody. That's exactly. I mean, you've been amazing. Thank you, Chris. I really want to show you this book. Never split the difference is amazing. Like I said, you're welcome. Not only did I listen to it, I also read it twice. How do people find out about you? You do a lot of these presentations for companies, you said, right? You're company, talk about your tell us about your company, where

people can find you. Yeah, the best way to get up to speed on us is to subscribe to our weekly newsletter, which is free. This is a good price. But even more important, because, all right, let's say it doesn't cost anything. What's the return to investment on your time? The articles are concise, short and sweet. You know, I get a daily 10 point update from the Wall Street Journal. First thing in the morning. By the time I'm reading, done reading that baby, I gotta go take a nap. There's so much information. It's fatiguing. Our newsletter has one concise actionable article in it. Curie. You can blast through it. You get a first thing in your inbox on a Tuesday morning. It's a tune up. it's a warmup, it's like stretching before you go into the game.

And it's actionable and you are going to be able to use it in stuff that day most likely. Plus we got a whole library of them on the website if you just search and pull out the appropriate one. Now the best way to subscribe to the newsletter, which by the way is a gateway to everything else. If you send a text message to the number 33, triple seven, the number again you send it to is 33,777.

The message you send is black swan method, three words, spaces in between, capitalization does not matter. Black swan method, just like you were actually text in that message to somebody, said it's a 33, triple seven, you'll get a request back for your email address, we'll sign you up, you'll be off to the races.

The newsletter is a gateway to everything. We train individuals, we train companies. We focus on high performance individuals. We market to the top 1% high performance. That's who we're really at because it's easier. High performers, they like eagles, every company's got some eagles. We do a lot of stuff for companies also but we specifically market to the top 1% performance. We coach a lot too. That was one of the things that I, you know, the unexpected. I thought we just trained companies and eventually we trained

every company and then we'd have to go into retirement. Go to another country. The coaching practice has developed far more than I ever expected. And we do a lot of coaching. We'll coach you through a deal. We're expensive. I mean, we're ridiculously expensive. But if you got enough on a line, we'll get you through that in probably a week. How long you've been screwing with it up to that point. What do you call that? That you just told everyone right off the bat that you're expensive. That's called something in your book. It's called on his feet for sure. It is. It's also called something. Oh yeah, come on. You know what it's called. You're putting books. I don't ever want you to get caught up guard by bad news. Wait, you

say that though that's called something when you you put that stuff in front, so you don't get it. Never use a negotiation. I think we've interviewed. We go to some tactics. Of course not. Why would you? How? Why would I use that?

Well, why would I? Exactly. To be honest with you exactly So you do a lot of what you do one-on-one coaching you do a lot of Speaking engage you can do speaking to employees as well. You said to you can train people through a negotiation So you're pretty busy and what's your what's your website so people know if they don't remember the text messaging or They can wait on You're pretty busy. And what's your website? Some people know if they don't remember the text messaging or they can... Or, blackswannltd.com,

B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N, L-T-D, like limited.com. Okay, you say you're so expensive. How expensive are you? Do you not wanna tell me right now? They should contact you. Oh, it's not. I mean, but you know, don't reach out first frivolously. Right, that's right. That's why you say give them a range.

Can you give a range? More than any lawyer would ever charge you per hour. Oh, so you do hourly? Do you do? You don't do daily? Well, we'll line you up. Well, if it's coaching, we'll like, well, we'll do an assessment of where you got gone. Um, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna give you an idea. Chances are you gonna be on a phone with one of us for an hour. Because, you know, the only people we got on for more than three, they've got so much at stake that not willing to lose the money.

It would cost them to fall out of practice. Lost aversion, I love it. Well, yeah, my son's got a guy. He's been coaching this guy for two years. The guy comes to all of our seminars. Guys got millions on a line, and his ego is not on a line. And for him, it's just stupid to make it look thick. Wow.

So, is there any other kind of social media? I know you have a master class that's popular. This is also one of the great bargains on a planet too. So it's one of the reasons I highly recommend it. I mean, because the cost of a subscription, which is barely more than, I think my class is $90. Yeah.

And the subscription for the year for everything is like 120 like why would you not buy the Subscriptions and say no, it's exactly I mean, I think so too. Do you do you make us split on that? Are you doing well with that master class? With the master class have been very good for us, but even even you know, it's good and in dollar terms There's been much it's been a much greater boon invisibility. Yes. The intangibles on that have been through the roof and say, well, they spend a lot of money on digital. I mean, I see it all the time.

I'm in a conversation the other day because we're working on a deal possibly with doing a show for NBC Universal, which I don't think is going to happen because TV shows almost never happen anyway. I know. Well, one of the lawyers involved, she said, get this. I put your name and number in my phone, your master class heads are now showing up on my Instagram. Are you serious?

It's the digital data out there. The way it's being exchanged is crazy. No, it's a me, that's actually I'm not surprised because your name comes up on my computer constantly now. Every time I want to never split the difference, I see your face with the master class constantly. It's just like, no, listen, it's working, right? It's doing its job.

And I mean, like I said, you have great information, so I'm hoping that it's doing well. They should be fine, the subscription, or whatever it is. And they should also contact you if they're a company or someone who's looking for a coach. Now you said you do the coaching, and you said, you've been mentioning your son a lot. Like if I was the negotiator, and you were the terrorists, I would

see there's like a very, there was a very soft, soft, soft spot for your kid, because you mentioned him, I see in all the other interviews that you do too. He comes up at least once or twice. You mentioned him. So. Star. I mean, you want to go fast, go alone, you want to go far, go as a team. Yeah. We got a pain. And my son is probably more instrumental really in pulling the team together than I am. Because well, you know, who pulls us together, who holds us together? My son holds us together.

I mean, I got a team of negotiators. And, you know, and the team actually, and today's economic downturn because there's so much of a need for what we teach in coach, we actually hired two people recently because the demand is through the roof. People are not willing to make mistakes now. I mean, mistakes, you know, are just too costly. There's too much at stake. If you're going to go straight now on your own, would relatively speak, you know, the cost of the mistakes are higher than the cost of the

trade. Could people, for class, $120, you got to be kidding me. Oh, absolutely. I agree. Could people hire you just to negotiate a contract like an attorney? No, we will. We only coach people. We do not negotiate on anybody's behalf.

Oh, you okay. So, okay. So, you don't do it. Okay, that's a good clarification because I was thinking, if you're so good, why am I why am I paying this expensive attorney for God knows how much money when I can be using you and maybe never having to compromise and getting exactly what I want? Well, it turns out to be independent. The attorney wants you right in your mouth. The attorney wants you writing them off your taxes from now to the day you die. I know. I we don't want that. We want to train you up and send you on your way.

Like why? You basically like teach the person a fish so they can fish for themselves. Exactly. That's right. That's right. I face the world with you right now. Oh, I love it. And I, and I you and I you. Thank you. You're awesome. Thank you so much for doing this podcast Can you come back when you do your you know when you release and launch your next book? I'd love to and are you planning on coming back to are you coming to LA? I lost at any time soon or is it gonna happen?

You know I If the world were like it was LA would be my preference. Now, we get a look to see what's going to happen post-pandemic because right now people are living in LA or paying LA taxes and not getting to enjoy LA. There are people who are bailing right and. And I don't know what kind of impact it's going to have on. As soon as the pandemic is over, I think that short-term impact on LA is going to be harsh. Absolutely.

And so, I'm trying to call the recovery. I'll probably hold off, but I love LA. I would love to move back. Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. A lot of my friends, a handful of my friends, have left in the last little while, the last month and a half, because of exactly that. There's no reason they'll be living here right now.

Everything's shut down. You're paying through the nose. What's the point? So they're all moving Austin, Florida, I mean, literally, everywhere but here. Yeah, exactly right. No, I agree, I, I mean, literally everywhere but here. Yeah. Exactly right. No, I agree, I agree.

Well, thank you. So then what's your, do you have any social media things that they can follow you on to? I'm sure if it is a scam or a... The FBI negotiator on Instagram. There you go. Are you active? I follow you.

One that I'm the most active on. Yeah, I like Instagrams kind of fun. Okay, good. Because I know I follow you. You don't follow me, but that's okay. Maybe now you will. We'll fix it. There you go. All right, I think we're good.

Thank you so much, Chris Boss. Never split the difference. Great book. Even better guy. And this has been awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks. You were delightful.

Habits and hustle, time to get it rolling. Stay up on the grind. Don't stop. Keep it going. This has been awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks. You were delightful We're having that, the habits and hustle podcasts, power by happiness. Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP Media Network, the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I want to tell you a little bit about my show. We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you.

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