Habits and Hustle - Episode 85: Alexandra Carter – Negotiation Trainer, Director of the Mediation at Columbia Law School, & WSJ Bestselling Author

Episode Date: October 13, 2020

Alexandra Carter is a Negotiation Trainer, Director of the Mediation at Columbia Law School, and WSJ Bestselling Author. Jen and Alexandra cover the key parts of her negotiation style and training, bouncing from one section to another from her new book, “Ask For More.” An actionable, accessible 10 question basis for finding success in negotiation, not only for business, but personal life, relationships, and yourself. Alexandra broadens not only our understanding of, but also the very definition of negotiation. Don’t think you have what it takes to be a good negotiator? Lacking that confidence or the other qualities you think you need to find success in both your business and at home? Get ready to be so wrong and come away feeling great about it. You can take it from me or from the woman who successfully wrote and published her very first book right in the middle of a global pandemic. Up to you, either way, you won’t want to miss this one. Youtube Link to This Episode Alexandra’s Instagram Alexandra’s Website Learn more at ucan.co and save 20% on your order with code HUSTLE ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to The Habits and Hustle Podcast. A podcast that uncovers the rituals, unspoken habits and mindsets of extraordinary people. A podcast powered by habit nest. Now here's your host, Jennifer Cohen. I have to say I'm very excited to talk to you. Number one, I love the name of your book. We have today on Happets and House of We Have Alexander Carter. She wrote the book, Ask for More. The title is amazing.

I mean, I live by this motto, my entire life, though I caught my eye right away. And you're also a college professor. You're a negotiator for a lot. Was it for Fortune 500 companies and for why don't you take it from here? Give us a little bit of a background story on you and then we can kind of dive into the questions I have for you. Yeah, sure. So I'm a full-time law professor. I'm a professor at Columbia Law School where I teach negotiation and mediation. I also train diplomats at the United Nations. I talk to Fortune 500 companies. Basically, I've spent the last decade helping thousands of people around the world learn to negotiate better and feel more confident doing it.

And I, you know, I would I loved about, when I first started the book, I mean, a lot of people who probably listened to this podcast know what negotiation is, right? Cause that's more or less my audience. However, I love the way that you define negotiation, cause that's not, what, let's not typically how we say it. So, you say you're steering the conversation.

So kind of tell us what, what, how you, what's your definition of what a negotiation is? Yeah. Well, this goes back to my honeymoon in Hawaii actually in 2006, ages ago, and my husband and I got in a kayak on the Wailua River, beautiful scenery. And the guide looked back at us and says, please negotiate your kayaks to the left so we can wind up on that beach. And that gen was the moment I realized that there's more than one way to think about negotiation. It's not just the back and forth over money right before

you sign a contract with the client or that once a year conversation you have with your manager. a contract with a client or that once a year conversation you have with your manager. Negotiation is actually steering. It's any conversation in which you are steering a relationship and that includes the relationship you have with yourself. I think it's so interesting. I love the title of your podcast, right? Habits and hustle. And I think when I think about habits, we talk about fueling ourselves with the right food and fueling ourselves with exercise, but we don't talk about the kinds of questions we're asking to fuel ourselves, right? And so when you are feeding yourself the right kinds of words, you are steering yourself with maximum effectiveness toward your goals.

Right. And like you say that you just have 10 questions that you have to ask to negotiate anything and five of those questions are to yourself. And the other five are for whoever you're negotiating with. And I found that very interesting. It was like we called it what the mirror for you and the window for the other people. Yes. And Jen, in fact, the original title of my book, Background Information, was mirrors and windows.

Before Simon and Schuster suggested that people might be looking for me in the home improvement section. That's good to say. Yeah. So they said, you need to change the title. And I kept coming up with titles and my editor very diplomatically would say, great start, Alex, keep going, which means these titles are terrible. And finally, 75 titles later, I thought, oh my gosh,

this is it. It's ask for more. Because the truth is, Jen, I think people often make the mistake of thinking that negotiation is all about arguments. It's all about who can be first, who can be loudest, who can be most aggressive. And that turns a lot of people off, frankly, including myself. I used to be as a young professional, a young woman.

I used to think that I couldn't be a great negotiator because that wasn't my style. But the truth is what you need to negotiate anything is just the right questions. Of course, it starts at home with you, asking the right questions of yourself. And then when you sit down with somebody else, if your listeners have ever wondered what to say when they're advocating for themselves,

you'll never wonder again because you will always have great questions at the ready. Right, this is why, first of all, what's great is that you get right to the meat of it. Like what it is is ask for more, or this is how you do it. There's like an actionable thing and there's practical ways to get what you want,

which is why I really enjoyed the book and why I wanted to talk to you. But before I even ask for those things, I'm curious, how did you become a good negotiator? How did you figure this out on your own? So I didn't. I had help. And if you're ready, I figured this out with the advice of a senior woman when I first negotiated my salary.

So Jen, like I said, I used to be this person who was so great at negotiating for other people, but felt really awkward or uncomfortable doing it for myself. Until the moment I went in to negotiate my first salary, I walked in, all nervous, they came in with a great offer, and I didn't know what to do. So I called a senior woman in my field and I

said, Hey, not sure what to do. They came in with a great offer and she said, I'm going to tell you what to do, Alex. You're going to go in and you're going to ask for more because when you teach someone how to value you, you teach him how to value all of us. So if you're not going to ask for yourself, I want you to go in there and do it for the woman coming after you, do it for the sisterhood. And that was the moment I realized that asking for more for myself was not a selfish act. Quite the opposite. It was an act of service. It normalizes it and I make it easier for the woman and the person who is coming

after me. Well, that's so true, because I feel whenever I negotiate on my own behalf, I always end up with much less money, much less of what I want, because I think human nature is you feel guilty, you feel bad asking someone else because that direct contact. So, when you give it to someone else to do it, you always end up much more successful in that deal structure, which is why these questions are so valuable, because it gives you the template. So you can take ownership of what you want and what you need. That's absolutely right. You know, I definitely wanted the book to inspire, but more than that, I wanted to give

people a roadmap to take the mystery out of it. Because I found that a lot of people knew kind of the things they should do when they negotiated, but they didn't know how or in what order. And so this is basically 10 easy steps that you can follow that will help you for any negotiation, whether you're dealing with your kids over screen time in the home, or whether you're trying to, as you were saying, negotiate for yourself and get more value from your deals. Right. And also, taking that ownership onto yourself. So tell us, what is the first question someone should be asking themselves?

Sure, so the first question you want to ask yourself is this, what's the problem I want to solve? What I found, Jen, was that so many people, when they came to me for negotiation help, would jump right into solutions. So I'll give you an example. I'm counseling an entrepreneur during coronavirus. And she tells me she just had a major client disappear. And so she says, OK, I need to run. So I'll give you an example. I'm counseling an entrepreneur during coronavirus. And she tells me she just had a major client disappear.

And so she says, okay, I need to reach out to my entire rolodex and blast folks looking for clients so I can make up my money this month. And I said, hold on a second, what's the problem we're trying to solve? Is it merely that you're just trying to bring money in the door at any cost this month? Or are you trying to pivot your business and find your best customers? Not just now, but into the future. In which case, we're not blasting the rolodex. We're doing a targeted reach out to the top 10 people who are going to be your people.

And the same thing would be true, Jen, of people who are trying to get healthy. So often people focus on just the low hanging fruit, like, I want to lose 20 pounds, right? What's the real problem you're trying to solve? I often ask people, okay, so what would happen if you achieve that? And they tell me, well, if I lost 20 pounds, I'd feel really proud of myself. If I lost 20 pounds, I'd bring my blood pressure down or I'd be able to play with my kids more. It's about getting to the root of what you want to do

because that gen is the equivalent of defining your beach. It's saying, here's where I'm steering my kayak and so that you can apply all that effort in the right direction. And also, you know, one thing that really struck me was when we took one of your questions in the first five for yourself, right? You have, what do I feel?

That's I think that's the third. Why that impacted me was you said feelings are facts. And I was like, this is interesting because, you know, and usually the cardinal rule is never let your feelings, your emotions impact how you negotiate. And when I saw that, it was the antithesis of everything I've ever seen. Can you kind of expand on that and why you think

that's not, that's a myth, I should say? Absolutely. So you're right. Most people think that feelings get in the way of making decisions when, in fact, feelings are how we make decisions. So a neuroscientist, Antonio DiMasio, I talk about this study in my book, he studied

people whose brains were completely intact except for the part that processed emotions. And do you know those folks could talk through a decision all day long, but they couldn't actually decide. Not just for big stuff, but even the little stuff, like, do I have Chinese or Italian for dessert dinner, you know, They couldn't make that decision. And so it turns out that feelings actually are important clues that help us decide what we need and why that's important.

And it's really important, Jen, for us to write down our feelings before we go into a conversation with somebody else. And when I say feelings are facts, I mean not that they're objective or reality, right, like time or temperature, but just that they're there, they exist and we have to deal with them. You know, during coronavirus, I've heard so many people say to me, you know, I shouldn't feel a sense of loss, you know, but I do. Or I shouldn't feel so anxious. I'm very fortunate, but I do.

We try to negotiate ourselves out of our feelings when the truth is if we just wrote them down as they were, they really start to melt. And so then when you do talk to somebody else, you're so much more self-aware. And it's less likely that your feelings are gonna boomerang back on you, like the monster at the end of the action movie.

You know, that's what you thought you had killed 20 minutes early. Well, I find that they say, that's why, and this is again a myth, I would imagine, I hope, but maybe not actually to be honest, but women are much more emotional. So sometimes they're not as good of negotiators

because they let those emotions ride them through, right? So if you're angry or whatever, and I always found that very difficult, no matter what sex or gender you are, because the reality is like that is like at the crux of who you are, how does that not impact what you are trying to get, you know, what you're doing, right?

How do you suppress that? It's impossible. It is get, you know, what you're doing, right? How do you suppress that? It's impossible. It is impossible, you know. I mean, it's like people think that meditation is about suppressing thoughts when it's not, right? It's about being present, accepting them and letting them float by. You know, and I would say this is kind of mindfulness

applied to negotiation. It's amazing, Jen. You know, I believe there is that stereotype out there this is kind of mindfulness applied to negotiation. It's amazing, Jen. I believe there is that stereotype out there about women being more emotional than men. But I was struck, the chapter in the book where I talk about feelings, it's at least as many men, whether they are lawyers in major law firms,

whether they are diplomats at the UN, talking about how feelings are critical for them as they make important decisions on behalf of their country, on behalf of the company. It really is critical for people of any stripe just to take a few minutes to think about and write down their feelings. You'll perform so much better in your next negotiation.

Is that because when you write it down, what is it due to you? Is it because when you write it down, what is it due to you? Is it because you're getting it out there on a piece of paper and then it's kind of you've dealt with it to some extent or you're much more cognizant and aware of what that feeling is? Okay, so it's both of those things plus. The first thing is by writing it down, you take away some of its power over you. It starts to dissipate, you've like grappled with it, right? The second thing is, you're now aware. I'm struck by how often, Jen, I start to write down my emotions because I do these questions

with myself and I get to something I hadn't realized before. I'm now aware of that. But the third thing, the place that leads us is sometimes writing down our feelings tells us what decisions we need to make in negotiation. For example, I spoke to a manager who needed to talk to a junior employee about a mistake the guy had made it work. He had violated a policy of their company. And initially, when he was writing down his feelings, he said, I'm annoyed that

this guy ignored the policy. I'm frustrated that I have to have this conversation. And then he wrote down, I'm doubtful that our policy is the right one. This was new information to him. He hadn't realized before. He really felt ambivalent about this policy. So as a result of writing down his feelings, he said, I need to do two things. One, I do need to talk to this guy, but two, I need to talk to my managers. And we need to decide whether this policy is really the right one for our company. Over and over again, when you write down your feelings, you generate data that help you make decisions.

If, for example, you know, Jen, you're the person who constantly feels like you're underselling yourself when you go into your contracts and you write down that you feel really undervalued, you know, and you feel disrespected. This is powerful information for you that you can use to charge yourself to go in and say, this time, I'm asking for more. Not just for me, but because my client doesn't benefit when I play small. Right. I like that. Can you give us another question we should ask ourselves before we move on to what you asked the other people? 100%. I want to share my favorite question. It's this. When you negotiate always, always, first ask yourself, how have I handled this successfully in the past? This is an incredibly powerful

question because asking yourself about a prior success does two things. First, do you know that if you go into negotiate having thought about a prior success, you're proven to do better? People actually outperform in negotiation when they go in thinking about a time that they were successful. But the other reason to do it is because when you think about a prior success, you generate data. You think about and write down strategies that have worked for you before that are going to work for you again.

So Jen, for example, if somebody told me, well, Alex, I'm going in to ask for a raise. Never done this before, but I'm a great advocate for other people. I would say, okay, fantastic. Let's write down what makes you so wonderful as an advocate for other people. I would say, okay, fantastic. Let's write down what makes you so wonderful as an advocate for other people, and then we're gonna apply those strategies to you. And even if you're trying to do something new, I spoke to a woman a couple of weeks ago,

and she said, I'm starting my own company. I've never done this before. And I said, okay, so let's just look back at the thing you're most proud of. And she said, my husband died, and I raised two kids on my own. And I told her, if you can do that, you can start a company. Let's write down how you did it.

And those things that got you here are also gonna get you there to starting your company for yourself. Keep coming back, you got plenty of space! Oof, not how you would have done that. You like working with people you can rely on by USAA, who has helped guide the military community for the past 100 years. USAA, get a quote today.

Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor called with love. USAA, get a quote today. Vitamin water zero sugar nourish every you vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass. Oh Well, you know, it's interesting that you said that as an example because I was going to ask you and when I was reading your book too is that what if you didn't have something that you can call to right because a lot of time is the first time it's the first time you're negotiating this thing or that thing, whatever it may be, and you get stuck, because you're like, I don't know, I don't know what I, there's nothing like this I've ever done before, so how are people supposed to pull from that information or that past experience when quite frankly, they don't have it to pull from

like someone who's a beginner even. Yeah, you know, and here's the thing, we all do new stuff, you know, in fact this year I published my first book and I did it during a pandemic. So never done that before. And I remember, you know, in mid-March, when my entire tour evaporated, and I thought, oh my god, how am I going to do this? I didn't have a prior success to look at. And so I went back and I thought about, okay, what do I need to do here? I need to communicate effectively. I need to get a large number of people on board, and I need to convince them about a message.

One of I done that before. And I remembered that I had run my husband's campaign for local office five years ago. And so I went back and I looked at what I did to make myself successful there. I went out and I recruited a team of moms in my neighborhood to be my captains. I brought them on board and together they went out and helped me spread the message. And so for the book launch, I ended up creating a launch team of over 600 people and they went out and helped to spread the message for me. And I would even think about somebody like you publishing your first book. If you've never done it before, I would

look back at, okay, once the last time you completed a really large project, how about the first time you got yourself into elite shape? That's a long-term project requiring everyday consistency. What are the things you did to get you there? And how might you apply those habits and those tools to the process of publishing your first book? You know what you do that I think is a great tool. It's a great way to communicate is that you bring it to someone else that you think that would relate

a relatable case study that they would understand. That's a great one and I appreciate that. But it does sound like you're very resourceful, right? So like you have someone has to be resourceful in order to think like that, right? So you know, with your husband, with the case of your husband or with your own situation with your book, with your book launch, I mean, you're also coming from a different place where you have that mindset, right? You kind of well, it seems to me, I don't know you very well, but you're taking the bull by the horns or you're very resourceful. For

someone who's just starting, is there any other simple tactile way that they could pull from that experience? Because I think that stop is in the start, right? A lot of times when people don't have that experience, they get really scared and that's when they don't know what to do and then that's when they don't know what to do and then that's when they back off. Yeah, that's so interesting. I do find that sometimes people get paralysis. You know, when I ask them the first question,

what's the problem you want to solve? Occasionally people get in their heads and they think and they can't come up with that. Like analysis paralysis. Totally. Right. And that's why in that case, if I see that type of person, I start them by thinking about a prior success. And I think, Jen, when I was talking about those successes, maybe they feel large to other people. Like I ran a campaign or I write a book. You know, that doesn't, it doesn't have to be something huge, right? And it gets much bigger than that.

I've heard people say, well, I, you know, I took a company public, right? Or I created a treaty between nations. You know, it can be as simple as I've had people tell me, you know, I got my associate's degree later in life, you know, as an adult. Or I ran an incredible PTA event for my child. I would just encourage people to think back to the last moment that you felt proud or happy or you received positive feedback from somebody and write down what you did there.

Because chances are that's gonna be a clue, not just to the strategies that make you successful when you are able to do things, but also it's gonna give you a clue as to what you want to be doing in the future, right? So it'll give you a clue to your passions and your desires so that you can pursue those. You know, sometimes, Jen, my work at Columbia is primarily mediation, which means that

I help people resolve conflicts. Usually that means I've got two or more people sitting at the table. But if you know somebody who feels stuck? That is an internal conflict. That means like the car crash is happening in your own head. It means you're stuck and you need to uncover what's making you stuck so that you can move forward. And sometimes asking yourself the right questions is a great tool to get there. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

I also agree that when you put yourself, the first part of what you were saying is that when you put yourself in that mindset of when you won and when you did something that was successful, it does change the way you go into the world and present yourself. You come in with much more confidence, right? Because you remember how you once won. At whatever the small, it could be a small thing, big thing, or whatever it is. So let's talk about this. So how does someone,

let's say we work on ourselves, we do all the five questions, and then we start asking the other five questions for the, not our opponent, but the person we're gonna be dealing with. What's the first question, and that's called the window, right? What's the first question we ask them? Yeah, so the first question, this is what I call my two magic words,

and it's kind of a trick, Jen, because this question doesn't have a question mark on the end at all. The two magic words are, tell me. Tell me your thoughts on my proposal. Tell me your greatest needs for this position. Tell me what you're looking for in a vendor of this type. Tell me is the question that simultaneously gets you the most information, but also, Jen, it comes across like you sincerely want to hear from the other person. You know, when I first started studying questions, I was amazed at the terrible questions I was asking every day. I would come home from work and I would ask my daughter, did you have a good day at school? What is the answer to that question?

It's usually like a shrug, right? You get in the... But really, it's yes or no. Instead, I started asking her, tell me. Tell me all about your day. Tell me the coolest thing or the silliest thing or the freakyest thing that happened that day. And I was amazed at how much more she started to open up.

You know, I give this example in the book, but it's really helped us stay close even now as she gets towards her teenage years. So last year, I was picking her up from her first ever swim meet. And she came out of the locker room and she was crying so hard. And I said, Cece, what's wrong? And she said, Mommy, I really don't like these locker rooms. You have to share showers and a girl came in while I was showering. And it was so awkward. And I sort of thought I had figured that out. I'm like, well, she's almost nine. Maybe she's starting to have some body anxiety. She's looking at other people. She thinks start looking at her.

But I didn't say anything. I said, well, tell mommy what made it awkward. And she goes, isn't it obvious, mom? And I was like, I don't know, tell me. And she goes, we wanted our shower at different temperatures. I mean, would that have been on your top 20, right? And I have to tell you, no, no, right? If this were like family feud, you know, that would be, I feel like number 100 or number 150 wouldn't even make the game show. Okay. Right. But it just goes to show, we often

think we know what people around us are thinking and we frequently don't. Even if we're spending all of quarantine locked in a house with them, we frequently don't know what's on their minds. And what works with your kids also works great if you're trying to land a job, land contracts as an entrepreneur, imagine the difference between calling somebody up Jen and saying, do you want to see the list of programs I have to offer, which is a closed yes or no question, or tell me what your company needs most this next year?

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You can learn more about UCan at UCan.co. That's UCAN.co and save 20% on your order with code hustle. I think a lot of people get they basically are their own worst enemy because they tend to talk, talk, talk, blah, blah, blah so much and then you're not giving a chance to, it could just a subjective bias, right? You think that because you think something that the other person is right there with you on the same program and almost 10 out of 10 times, you're actually wrong. And people get in their own way because they just wanted to hear themselves talk because

it's uncomfortable or awkward, right? Yes. And yes. I mean, and that is, and that's where you run into difficulties. And it's ironic because I cut you off, and I cut you off because I got so excited to talk about, are you ready for this? Silence. Indigo. I know.

Because when you said that, you know, we talk, talk, talk. Sometimes it's because we want to hear ourselves talk, but other times it's because we're scared of what's going to happen if we allow there to be silence. And I'm wondering if you've seen that as well. Oh, it's happened to me. I mean, I've seen it. People've done it with me. I've done it to them.

It's one of those things that it's, again, it's like a very, silence can be very uncomfortable and awkward, right? And it's very difficult to get over that hump of like being okay with silence. And that's why people say, once they find a partner that they can just be quiet with, and then they don't have to like, yap, yap, yap around,

they've found their happiness. Because out of that, like, I'm easing this, we end up like yammering on and on. I do it anosyam all the time. But, so I wanna talk about that. How do people, I guess the bigger question is how do people overcome that, like, discomfort with silence? Because that is, I think, one of the huge keys here for negotiation, right? Like allowing things to land and being quiet and hearing from the other person.

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, in some ways, I think it's like going to the gym. It's like a muscle that you exercise and the more you practice, the better you'll be. You know, the first few times I really was working on doing this, I would count to three or count to five in my head and just let the silence be. count to five in my head and just let the silence be. But once you experience it, because really powerful things happen when you allow there to be silence, you really encourage the other person to talk. It's amazed how heard they feel if you really give them the space to consider your question and to really think about a great answer. You know, the other thing that happens sometimes when you allow there to be silence is you

get what you want. You know, how many times do we sell ourselves short by saying, you know, so my rate is this. But if you can't pay that, that's totally fine. We can work out a plan and I can also discount right. People just it's like we bid against ourselves because we're starting from a place of we're not convinced yet that we're worth it. You know, that's where sort of asking yourself the questions and getting grounded and that comes in. But then once you are ready and you're in the room, I tell people these three words, land the plane. I want you to visualize that you are asking your question

or stating your price and then you are just bringing the plane in for a landing. And when you do that, it is just, I'm sure you've experienced this, it's incredible what you get on the other side. People open up, they give you great information and sometimes they say yes. Right, I mean, I could not agree with you more because it's this resonates with,

I'm sure this can resonate with everybody, right? We all do that when that's such an uncomfortable feeling like how much do you, how much will this be, let's say? And you're like, well, my rate is, you know, $100. But if you, and then because you don't know, you're so uncomfortable with saying that and you don't want that awkwardness, you're like, but I can do this. I will do that. I can just a sliding scale. And you literally can talk yourself out of a better deal. You talk yourself out of a aura. Talk yourself completely out of the deal. You can. And let me give you an example of how silence can work in the other direction.

So I was speaking to a group of moms about negotiation and this one mom said, Alex, I can't do this. I'm an introvert. And I said, oh, if you're an introvert, then you're going to be the best because you're going to have a better tolerance for silence. So she was trying to negotiate free tuition for her kids cousin who was going to their summer camp for one week

She calls up the director. She says look. I've been working here a long time I'd like for the kids cousin to go with them this week for free and he says well, you know, I think we could do maybe half off Silence He then says well Okay, maybe Maybe 20 that you, we could do it for 25%. She stays silent. Do you know three seconds later? He says, you know what, you've been working here a long time. Let the kid come for free. And she called me up and said, Alex, I did it. And all I had to do was stay silent on the phone for 20 seconds. So true.

Go on, I'm sorry. I'm just like, I'm thinking about it because it's 100% true. And they all say, you know, in my life experience, that they always say, or when I work with other people, you think that the best salesperson is the one who's the most grigorous and loud and bold. The best salespeople that I've ever worked with had been the ones who were more the strong silent type. They were quiet.

They were very, very different than what you would actually see in a movie as like that grandiose big sales guy. It's amazing to me. It is so true. In fact, if you're looking to be persuasive as a salesperson, there's a question in the book that I recommend for you. I taught this question to a sales team that was working during coronavirus. They called me because they got a call from a distributor. They're like, we really want to sell our product. We've gone in there twice before with our beautiful pitch deck.

We talked all about our product. We didn't get the deal. This time, they simply went in and said, we're so happy to be here. Tell us how you're seeing the sector and your concerns with our product. And five seconds of silence. And the distributor says, all right, you want to know why you didn't get the deal last time? Here's why you didn't get the deal. She explained exactly what her hang-up was.

They didn't need to show the deck. They just pitched right to her concern, and they landed a six-figure deal in the middle of coronavirus. Sometimes, the best approach is ask your great question, land the plane, and then zip it. And you'll be amazed at what you get on the other end. I think that's so true. I'm just thinking back right now, as you're saying,

at all these times when I've just babbled and I've lost certain deals because of that discomfort. I think that's actually great advice. Office Depot Office Max has great deals on everything you need to succeed, like stylish furniture and chairs to keep you working comfortably, the latest tech to keep you organized and productive, calendars and planners to keep you on schedule, and cleaning supplies to keep your space spotless.

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It's discomfort with claiming your worth. You know, you absolutely. You talk at those moments because you are already, already, mentally undercutting yourself in your head. I'm not worth this. They're not going to like me. And it all goes back to, I think, our fear of no. For a lot of us, but especially for women,

and I see you shaking your head, we a lot of us experience this, right? What do you feel as though if we get a no, that is a referendum on our worthiness? When in fact, no is not about you. No could simply mean somebody doesn't have enough information. They haven't understood. It's the wrong timing. You haven't asked the right person. There are a million reasons why somebody could say no or not yet, none of which have to do with you. And I think the more that we can internalize that,

take that in and rest in that, to know that we are worthy, regardless of what somebody's initial answer is, the more confidence we'll have to just state our worth and then let there be silence as the person considers it. I like that. So let's just go over that, because I think that's so important.

Number one, silence is so important to negotiate any deal. Maybe a good tactic would be before you ask you land the plane counting your head, you know, like up to whatever number 20, 30, whatever it might be, to kind of like give you something to do to distract yourself, so to speak, from like babbling, right? Or how I call it babbling. And then understand that it is a lot of times that fear of the no. Now the question I have, my follow-up is how do you turn when someone does say no? Because it may not, it's a lot of times like you said, you're not asking the right question. How do you turn a no to a yes? Oh, Jen. So I marketed a book during coronavirus. I am a

Master of hearing the no and turning this into a yes That's why I'm asking you the master. So through hard one personal experience, let me tell you Never fear the no again. Simply ask this four-word question. What are your concerns? No, we can't promote you. What are your concerns? No, we can't come in with the salary at that level. What are your concerns? You know, taking the salary, for example, what if somebody says, well, we're not sure that your experience meets what we need for the top of the band. Bingo, now you know what you need to show, right? Or in my case, here I am, I'm promoting a book.

My book sales were tied to all of these in-person events, and every single one of those disappeared. So, people would say we're not doing a virtual event. And I would call them and say, what are your concerns with a virtual event? One person said, well, we're not sure if our employees would want that. And I said, how might you find that out? And she said, well, I suppose we could survey them. And I said, great, do that and get back to me. They all wanted the event.

Over and over Jen, what I found was, when said, no, and I asked them, what are your concerns and really honored them. Not just paid lift service, but I listened, I repeated back to them, let me understand. And then I found something that genuinely served those concerns. Over and over again, you can turn a no into a yes. But more than that, the people on the other end of that yes said, Alex, we're so glad we ended up working together. You really can serve yourself and serve the other person

in the process of addressing their concerns and turning that no to a yes. So that's why you never want to do clothes that you always want to have open-ended questions, right? Like tell me more, or tell me why, or not tell me what, because you don't like the word why, I remember, right? You never want to use why in like, because it's a good, right? Is that not what I read? It is. You're absolutely right, because why is a blaming question? Social workers don't use why,

because it comes across making people feel defensive. Right. If I ask my husband, you know, why did you do that? It comes off differently than if I say, can you tell me what went into that decision, right, or walk me through that or what led to that for you? Right. So why is blame? It keeps us stuck in the past. But what is a question that moves forward and helps you diagnose? Instead, Jen, of saying, why can't I just claim my worth when it comes to setting my rate, I would ask myself, what can I do to support myself in doing this moving forward? So one keeps you stuck in the past, the other helps you diagnose and move forward.

And you know what, when, you know, I think a lot of this to be a good negotiator and you're the expert, but require some emotional intelligence, right? Because you need to understand that, that exactly what you just said, that, that, that why, why, how that why actually, when it does to someone psychologically, makes them feel defensive, makes them feel, you know, put on the spot, whatever that is, which then will, will deter your, your, your, your

power and the negotiation. But if it, if you tweak a word here and there, and catch on to what they're not saying or how they're saying it, it makes all the difference. So there has to be a form of that. How much of this is what people say versus their body language? Or, right? Because you have to be reading someone's body language or right? Cause you have to be reading someone's body language. It's just hard now.

It's a coronavirus stuff, but I'm zooms and stuff like that. You get you're able to as well. Yeah, body language is the majority of it. You know, when you think about it, our tone, our expression, our body language helps determine whether if you ask me, you know, tell me how you're doing today, whether I say great or I say great, right? In which case, right?

The latter of which you know is sort of, I'm ready to call it quits for the day. You know, and similarly, I find that when I go into negotiation, I try to, what I call, listen to everything, which means I'm treating everything as communication. You know, sometimes when people say to me, yes, that deal works and they're shaking their head, right? I might say to them, so your words are saying yes, but I just want you to know that your face is saying no. Let's talk about that. You know, other times you can tell by the way people fidget or if they're shaking or they're facial expression

that they're anxious or uncomfortable. You know, Jen, you talked about Zoom and or these virtual platforms. And the reason, or part of the reason that we experience that Zoom fatigue at the end of the day is because our brains are trying to make the most of the limited information they are getting about other people. You know, if we're in person, I can see your whole body. I can see your face looking confident, but your hands trembling underneath

the table. And I can then make a judgment, all right, you know, Jen's feeling some anxiety, and I'm going to try to put her at ease. Here, we can only see each other kind of from the waist up. And so we're trying to make the most of that limited information. Right, that's so true. That's why I'm having a Zoom fatigue, you know, because virtual fatigue, because it's too much of it.

And I don't feel you get to really connect the same way with people. Like, yeah, I mean, for example, look at us, we're not on Dumbur on another kind of virtual podcast, but yeah, we're getting along, there's a nice rapport, but whenever I do this podcast in real time, right, you feed off of people's energy, right? That's a big part of it, right? And you know, I guess my question to you is, is there a way for people to get better with

kind of reading the, I guess, the intangible stuff or reading the kind of like the nuance? Because a lot of people, that's where they also get stuck, right? They're not very, they may be very academically really smart and have the right information, right in knowledge, but they don't know how to read a person. And that's where a lot of, a lot of mishaps can happen. Yeah. So I do have suggestions for that. You know, Jen, part of the function of the whole mirror section of the book where you're asking yourself questions, is not just that you can prepare, but it's because when you do that prep work in advance, then your mind is more clear when you sit down with somebody else, meaning that you can truly focus

on what they are saying, because you know yourself solid. You're there to discover the other person. The other technique that I like to teach people is to summarize after they speak. So if for example you just spoke and I said okay Jen, so to make sure I got you right what you feel like is it's harder to create that same connection or feel the same vibe if we're not in the same room. You know does that more or less sum it up? If I follow up what you say by summarizing, and I get used to doing that, it means that I am then truly listening

to hear what you have to say instead of listening to prepare my response. You know, so often if we're in our own head or we're thinking about what we're going to say next, we don't have the focus to be able to truly listen to what somebody is saying. And that's really important because you could miss a word or two that make all the difference. I've been negotiating for myself as a speaker during this time of the pandemic. And I remember when I called somebody and they said, well, we'd love to have you, but, you know, we don't have any

budget. But what they said was, we generally don't pay our speakers. Okay. One word generally. And so I asked a question and I said, okay, so what would it take to overcome that general policy? What are the occasions on which you do pay speakers? And from there, we negotiated and they ended up paying. One word can tell you everything you need to know about somebody's mental state or really where they are financially. And when you listen to summarize, instead of listening to respond,

that is when you're going to pick up all of those clues. The other thing I would say, Jen, just quickly, is try to get to know somebody's baseline. So for example, with that means getting to spend a little bit of time with you on the phone. So if I see that normally you have a certain expression, right, or you're leaning back, and then all of a sudden you change that expression and move forward, that change tells me that something is going on. So you just pay attention to when people deviate off the baseline. No, that's so true, because I, people always say, you know, if they're, if there are arms or cross, that means they're angry

But like I could just be cold. I have like I have bad circulation and after breathing all the time, right? Like you it's not one it's not like an all-size-fits-all One-size-fits-all type of situation 100% I say that to audiences gently our kindred spirits I said that all the time that whole cross arms thing is a myth. For me, it just means I'm freezing and we need to turn the air conditioning down. Right?

And 100%. And it can mean, you know, some people, for example, have a natural, you know, more somber facial expression. It doesn't mean they don't like you, right? That's just there, you know, I won't use the term, but they're resting, right? They're resting me.

Yeah, I'm just 100%. Right? And so you get to know them and you understand that that's the baseline. And so part of it is, you know, Jen, when people see negotiation as steering relationships rather than just a transaction, it means that you're genuinely getting

to know that other person. It means for me that even if you and I are doing business together, I'm trying to understand who you are as a person, what's important to you, where you want to go in your life, and a bit about your habits, your body language, and what's important to you.

And it's by really understanding you that I can then end up serving you if we do business together and in the process also serving myself. It's not just about money, it's about steering relationships and that includes the whole person. No, I could not agree with you more. And, you know, I think I was watching something when I knew I was going to do this interview with you. And you're talking about, basically, steering the relationship when someone asked you about negotiation.

I don't remember where it was. And they're like, is that like manipulation? I'm like, no, it's not manipulation. Like, you're taking ownership and control of where this relationship is going for good or for bad. That's not manipulation. That's just being in control of where what's happening, right? Yeah, it's partnership.

The partnership, right? The truth, right? And I talk about the kayak, you know, when I'm steering the kayak through the water, that's not manipulation. That's me partnering with the water, right? And you know that if you're not steering what happens? If you put your ore down, you're gonna drift, right? And so, you know, over and over again, I found that when I partnered with people, it enables me to bring genuine value to them, to also serve myself and for everybody to benefit. That's partnership, that's what negotiation is.

Right, no, I agree. I've one other question for you. I wanted to ask you earlier that we were getting sidetracked, but is there a difference between a need and a demand when you're negotiating? Yes, absolutely. So a demand is often the tangible thing that you go in with, right? So my rate for this is $500. Or I need my salary to be $80,000. The need is the reason why you're asking for that amount. So for example, if you've set your rate in a certain place, it could reflect some different needs.

Sometimes it's a financial need. I need to charge this a certain place, it could reflect some different needs. Sometimes it's a financial need. You know, I need to charge this a much because, you know, this is my margin and here's how I feed my family, but it's more than that, you know, Jen. Needs can also be intangible. They could be, I need to feel valued, right? I need to feel excited for this event. You know, I need a sense of advancement in my life or achievement. Needs are driving forces behind everything we do. And so that's the reason that one of the first things I ask people to do in the book is really get in touch with their needs. The tangibles, right? The money, the clients, the reports, all of that. But also the intangibles,

you know, the freedom, the respect, the acknowledgement that make life worthwhile. Because those are what are going to enable you really, not just to make progress in your career and your fitness, but also to feel happy and a sense of peace at the end of every day. So what was the process in writing ask for more? Yeah, so it's interesting because for the few years before I wrote this book, I actually felt really blocked like I was unable to write anything. book, I actually felt really blocked like I was unable to write anything. And then I ended up having to get a really serious surgery on my foot that left me like, you know, in a rented hospital bed for months.

And so I was forced to slow down. And one day I sat up in bed and I was like, I have it. I have an idea and it's not for a textbook. It's for a book that everybody can use to learn to negotiate better. The problem was, Jen, I didn't have a clue how to write a mainstream book for a wide audience. I'd only have written articles for other law professors.

So the truth is that I googled how to write a non-fiction book proposal. And I found a website that gave me some good information. And then I slid into the DMs of a local mom that I had met in yoga class. And I said, hey, I think you're a ghost writer. Could you, you know, teach me how to write a book proposal. And so I took her out to lunch and she gave me the details. And from there, I spent six months like working on my proposal. And it wasn't just the idea, you know, in the process of writing a nonfiction book proposal, you have to talk about yourself and you have to talk about why people will buy a book from you. And so in the process of writing, ask for more, I was learning it firsthand. You know, I was learning how to step up and find my own voice and say,

shoes who I am, I'm an expert, and shoes why people will want to buy this book from me, a woman, and a younger person in my field. And Jen, when I tell you, I worked for six months, and then I sent it out. I had no connections. I didn't ask anybody for any connections to agents. I sent it out myself to like 10 agents, and I basically waited and prayed. And the next business day, I got a call from the most powerful woman on my list, somebody whose name I had heard, and she called me and said, Alex, we love your book.

We think everybody will want to buy a book from an expert like you. Jen, I have to tell you, I remember getting that voice mail. I have it saved on my phone. And I knew that that was the day that my life was going to change. And from there, we got a bunch of bids from publishers. And I couldn't believe it. You know, the day I signed my bid, I thought I did all this work. And there were so many days that I thought, you know, Alex, are you joking? Like are people really going to buy this book from you? Or they're really going to think this idea

is any good? And sometimes, you know, you believe in yourself and it really comes true. Then when it came time to promoting the book during a pandemic, you know, I drew on all of that work I did for the proposal. Because I remember thinking other people have more social media followers, other people might have more connections, but nobody, nobody is gonna outwork me. And so I used everything that it took to write my own proposal and send it out and believe in myself and my idea, and I applied that to the marketing of the book during May 2020 in a panzamic when everything was unlocked down. DQ presents, picture this.

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Only a DQ. Happy taste good. Okay, I love this story because you are a hustler, like no matter what, like, you know, because people can see this and be like, oh, you know what, you have a lot, you know, you're a law professor, you have a fancy law degree and it's, you know, it's easy for you to tell people how to negotiate this or do that. But at the end of the day, you know, how you've been got to this place of actually writing this book was you, you hustled your way through it. You didn't know what the hell you were doing and you kind of had to figure it out, like most people in the world, right? And you just kind of just didn't give up on yourself, kind of like how we

can talk ourselves in or out of anything, you know, and how we can get in our own way with our own negotiations, right? It's because we don't have that belief in ourselves. So you had that belief in yourself, you went for it, you got this great book deal. And like I said, I love that story because I think also, can you just tell people, like you didn't even know, I mean, that one agent, okay,

but how did you even get to the other nine names? Like how did you even find, this was not your world? No, it's not my world. So I basically looked in the front of books that I admired, you know, like business books or self-help books, and I looked at who the authors thanked, because they always thanked their agents. And so that gen was how I generated a list of like 10 people.

And I thought I'm gonna apply to what I think are like the best 10 or the top 10 first. And then when those people reject me, because of course they're gonna reject me, then I'll go and I'll start applying to other people. But here's the thing, So often, we're so afraid of hearing no that we say it for ourselves first before anybody else gets a chance to. And this in the process of writing this book, I literally asked for more. I summoned

the courage to stand up and say, I have something worthwhile to offer. I'm not the first person to write a negotiation book, but I have a message that's gonna reach some people uniquely. And sometimes, Jen, people, I'll be speaking to large audiences and somebody, usually a woman, will stand up and say, Alex, how do you get over your imposter syndrome? And I'll ask her, are you finding value from this talk here today? Because if you are, I want you to know that the only reason we're talking here today

is because I got over my imposter syndrome. The fact is that I believe everyone has a unique message that only they can deliver and there are people out there waiting for your message. Don't make them wait any longer, ask for more, can deliver, and there are people out there waiting for your message. Don't make them wait any longer, ask for more, and get out and boldly offer what you have. Because in the process of doing that, you're not just going to make your life better, but you're going to make a lot of other people's lives better too. I love that.

That is so inspiring. Thank you for sharing that story. You got it. I hope it can help. No, that's great. I mean, I think we really cut, I mean, your book is like I said, I really, the title itself, I mean, ask for more. I love it. I want to end with a couple of things because this is called Habits and Hustle, right? Whatever some of your top habits, what do you do daily? What are some of the habits that you want to share that kind of keep you on point, make you a really good negotiator? Sure. Get your mind sharp. It's so interesting. When I think about my daily habits,

I have a habit where every day I sit down with my daughter and we talk about three things that we are grateful for. I started this with her as an exercise to help her stop asking for more toys and be grateful for what she had. But I found that when I focused on what I was grateful for, it also set a tone for my day that was positive and kept me moving. The other thing is I don't let a day pass without moving my body. This is something I haven't talked about elsewhere, Jen, but I grew up with severe asthma as a child. I was frequently hospitalized. I couldn't do anything in gym class. It really led me to feel isolated and out of shape and with low energy. And as an adult, I started trying for the first time to exercise. I would run for two minutes, get an asthma attack and stop, three minutes and stop. And I remembered the day

that I built up to a mile, and it was the most exhilarating thing ever. For me, physical movement, you know, does more than just keep my body healthy. It also grounds my mind and like paves the way for me to do deep brain work. Right. No, I mean, I second that motion a lot of times, I exercise not so much anymore for my physical, but for my mental, for my mental mental, just so I can like be more alert, more focused, my cognitive, as I'm saying, cognitive. I'm like, uh, uh, but it does help with everything cognitively as well, right? Also release stress. Uh, so Alexandra, you're great. How do people find you? How did they find the book? How do they

follow you? What's your, give us your details. Sure thing. Well, people can find the book, ask for more wherever books are sold online. So that includes Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes and Noble. I'd love it if people would connect with me on my website, which is Alex Carter asks, aksks.com. I'm actually releasing some digital courses this fall for folks who want to negotiate better and get more information about how to do that right from the comfort of your home. And you can sign up there to be the first to get those. And last come find me on Instagram, Alexandra B Carter, where I post nuggets about negotiation, but also pictures of my daughter and cooking videos. That's one of the things I love to do in my spare time.

And I'd love to find people and hear about, you know, what's working and challenges you face. Well, thank you. I think you've given some really great practical advice on this podcast. And that's what we're all about. I'd like when people come on here and give people things that they can actually apply that are not so daunting. And you've done that with spades. So thank you so much for being a guest. And I guess I will speak soon. Hopefully I have you again for your next book, your follow-up book. Yeah, I would love it.

I'm working on it. So I'll let you know. Thanks a lot. You are. This has been a true pleasure. Habits and hustle, time to get it rolling, stay up on the grind, don't stop, keep it going. Habits and hustle from nothing in the summit, all out, hosted by Jennifer Cohen. Visionaries, tune in, you can get to know, be inspired. This is your moment, excuses we in heaven at. The Habits and hustle podcasts, powered by happiness.

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