Hacked - Talking Flipper Zero with The Talking Sasquatch

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

Scott bought a Flipper Zero and was too lazy to watch YouTube so we've got Youtuber The Talking Sasquatch (https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingSasquach) joining us today to talk through the hardware hacking device, its past and some of the ethical boundaries of being a content creator! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And BC5 investigates viral videos showing people how to use this $200 device that can unlock cars, secured gate, even doors to private buildings. Amazon just ban these cloning devices from its website. I can do a lot for $200. Well, we talked to security experts. And so naturally, I just had to buy one. You see a news broadcast saying there is a device that is no longer legal. So naturally, you had to pick one up. Well, it's not illegal.

It's just that's a discussion going on around whether it's going to remain legal, which means that I had to get one before that discussion elevates into law. Sure. You wanted to get one while to get in is good. That makes a lot of sense. I remember when I first heard about this, it was with murmurs that the flipper zero might not be long for this world. And I too wanted to buy one. So I'm very excited you did.

And we make a podcast. So the best way you could possibly learn about it is probably interviewing someone for this show. So when I got it, I was like, what is this thing? How does it work? How do I use it? Right. So I did what everybody does. And I went to YouTube. One-stop shop. Yeah. And what did I find on YouTube? What did you find on YouTube? I found lots of content regarding the Flipper Zero, but typically one large YouTuber, the Talking Sasquatch or Talking Sasquatch, or SaaS, as I like to call him. And he makes predominantly flipper zero content. It seems to be the biggest channel.

So I did what any sane podcaster would do. Instead of watching all of his content, I invited him on the show to explain it all to me in person. It really is like the luxury of hosting a podcast, the shortest distance between not knowing something and knowing something. Would you please just come on my show and explain it to me? Exactly. So today we're joined by the Talking Sasquatch.

and we're going to go through the Flipper Zero and all the questions that I had about it, which I hope you find interesting. It's a bit more of a technical episode today, as Jordan can attest to, if that's not for you, that's fun. I hope you enjoy some of the other content, but stick around.

It was a pretty interesting chat. Yeah, it's a technical conversation, but it's also a fascinating deep dive into both what you can do with this device, where it came from, this kind of story of all these different hacker tools being brought together into like, kind of more of a gadget.

something between a gadget and a platform. And then what it means to share information on the internet about a device that has kind of a little bit of like a reputation behind it, what it means to share stuff and to have to navigate, is this okay for me to be putting out there in the world? Is this useful information or is this like hacker information? It is a fascinating conversation and talking Sasquatch was great to chat with. So thanks for coming on the show. you know, we really appreciate you making the time, making the time to come on and enlighten me notably,

but also, you know, vicariously enlighten our listeners. Thanks for having me. So the, I bought one of these flipper zeros. I read an article that said that they might potentially get banned, and then that, of course, triggered me that burning need to immediately add to cart and buy one. So I bought one. I really, like, hadn't done any research into them. I just knew that they were like these cool little hacking utilities.

I won't call it a toy because it's not a toy. And I was like, what does this thing even do? How do I use this thing? And immediately found your content and was like, you know what? I'm just going to fire this Sasquatch a message and see if he wants to come on the show and just have a chat about these things. Because you know considerably more than I probably ever will about this device. So I just thought it would be great to have you on.

Well, yeah, I definitely know. to do a few things at this point. And it's interesting, too, because it's always evolving, right? Like, every week, it seems there's a new app that comes out. It's a new, something, like, there's a paradigm shift. And, like, it's just really, really weird. And I know all sorts of tech is like that, where literally things go from, like, 50 miles an hour to 100 miles an hour, like, just because one person shows up.

Sure. But there's always some cool stuff to do. It's been really good for a flipper for me, because, there's always content there. There's always, you know, evolving situations and stuff. Totally, totally. So the, just everybody knows our guest this week talking Sasquatch has a great YouTube channel that talks considerably about this device as well as other devices I see,

as I think your most recent video is in regards to a, a Wi-Fi device that is not a flipper-based one. But the, yeah, I think a great place to start is, you know, Kind of what is it? You know, what is this thing? It's very odd looking, has a weird shape. What is it? And where did it come from?

So, like, I don't know if you know where it's from, I assume by some of the Russian lettering on the soft case that I got for it, that it might be from Russia. But, yeah, so, yeah, the flipper team is, I think, Russian and Ukrainian, something like that. The logistics of all that I'm not particularly well versed on. But obviously, it was in Kickstarter for a few years. And it's one of those things that people were starting to question, well, is this thing ever going to actually exist? But, yeah, it's kind of billed as a cybersecurity toy for a number of reasons.

One, I mean, it's fun. You know, you've got little animations and things like that on it. So it's got, like, the very most basic virtual pet, like, kind of functionality. But underneath it is a pretty okay Swiss Army knife of, cybersec tools and especially for penetration testing, it's got some pretty decent functionality.

Now, it's not the best at doing virtually anything, but the fact that one small thing, the size of, you know, a couple lighters, you can do a whole bunch of cool stuff. Because like most of my backgrounds in software

side of the hacking thing, I never really got into the hardware side. I had a little bit of phone freaking back in the day, but most software side. And the gist that I've gotten, aside from just playing an endless amount of snake on it, which I have been doing,

and I've done pretty well at, is that this is kind of a multi, you know, functional platform to build out hardware hacking things. It has a bunch of built-in functionality, like a bunch of different radio receivers and transmitters as well as infrared receivers

and transmitters, and SC receivers and transmitters. It seems like it's like an extensible platform. Would you kind of agree with that? Absolutely. And what's really interesting being from the software side is that people are still kind of unlocking different features

or different things that you can do with the flipper just through the software. Specifically the BLE spam. The people finally kind of figured out that they were able to emulate these BLE packets and now they're using them to kind of a tack cell phones and things like that. And it's really interesting because that functionality obviously was there since day one.

But the idea of doing it with a flipper and stuff like that kind of just recently came out. And that's really interesting to see things like that. Because, yeah, with GPIO, you can make almost anything for Flipper. I mean, we've seen obviously Wi-Fi boards, but now we have GPS. There are range extenders, antennas. boosters, all sorts of cool stuff. I just want to rewind a hair there and talk about some of those acronyms. BLE, so like the is Bluetooth low energy, right?

Yeah, yeah, Bluetooth low energy. So this thing can, this thing can emit Bluetooth low energy signals, which people have then figured out how to spam them at devices, essentially causing the devices to lock, correct? There's a few of them. So the first one is basically a pairing spam. So you can just throw like a bunch of headphones try to pair with your phone over and over again. And since there are so many different headphones, all of those headphones like on an iPhone, anytime you pair in like a JBL or a Jabra or anything like that, it shows up as the actual device. Yeah, yeah.

All of those devices are mapped to like an image of it. So there is a little bit of a failsafe. So you can't take the same device and try to pair it over and over and over again, but you can try to pair different devices. So what they've figured out is they, yeah, all you have to do is take a, all through the list of the devices and keep sending it to the phone over and over again, and effectively you won't be able to really use the phone. There is another attack vector that they figured out,

which effectively starts an audio device or something. I don't remember the exact logistics of it, but it effectively starts what I believe is an audio device, and it will spike the CPU to 100%. And in doing that, it makes it so that the temperature control sensor, or temperature control service won't run. And if that doesn't run, then the kernel's not getting temperature information from the CPU,

and then it does kernel panic, locks up, shuts down. Weird. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just one of those things that I think somebody did by accident at some point in time, and they crashed their phone. trying to figure out what else they can do with it.

And they're like, wait a minute, is this work for you? Your phone, too? Yeah, wait, it works on your phone too? And then all of a sudden, I'm making a video about it. So that- Sure, crash your own device and realize there's a vulnerability out there. Yeah. The next, I just want to, the next kind of academy popped out there was GPIO,

which is the general purpose input output pins, right? So there's 18 little holes in the top of this thing that you can essentially clip circuit boards into. to the best of my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong on this. No, that's absolutely correct. Yeah, and it delivers DC current to them so they can be powered boards. It has kind of like, I actually believe when I ordered it, I ordered prototype boards, which are just blank circuit boards that are meant for you

to build whatever you would like, clip it in and write the code to make it work. Yep. You've built a few of these things, haven't you? You've built some of these boards yourself? Yeah. So one of the things that I did when I first started off just messing with Flipper was I didn't buy the official Wi-Fi board, didn't know what it did. So I didn't waste any money or time on it. So I didn't get one of those.

And then I had seen, I can't remember who was doing it at the time, but they were just hooking up a ESP 32 because, and that's just a little, basically a Wi-Fi board. And what's cool about that is only four wires to it. So you can have a set of DePont wires, plug in four wires, and you can flash this thing into a little Wi-Fi board using the Marauder firmware by Just Call Me Coco. So, yeah, that was the first thing that I ever did. And I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And, yeah, I mean, you could just use it with the prototyping boards or anything like that. Now, I am not a hardware person per se, is in like I've always kind of liked it. Like, I know how to solder and things like that.

But I'm a bicycle mechanic by trade. I mean, I've done that for like 20-some years at this point. So, and over the years, I've done some things here and there. But, yeah, I never really did any of this stuff professionally. And that's one of the things that's cool about flippers is because it brings a lot of people that may not be in either cybersecurity or technology or any of this stuff. And it kind of gives them a reason to maybe get in there.

Once you start messing with stuff, you can get more and more complicated. Because after I made that first board with, the four wires, I decided that I wanted to make a multi-board. So I wanted to have the Wi-Fi, but I also wanted to have NRF-24 on it, which is, that was what you used for trying to take control over wireless mice and keyboards on a 2.4 gigahertz like frequency. So I wanted to add one of those to there as well. That's another seven wires. And at the same time, somebody had showed be a picture of a Helltech

ESP 32 with an OLED screen on it and I'm like, you know what? I want to try to put my logo on this thing and I didn't even have a logo. I was, I mean, my Discord name was talking Sasquatch because this is the name I've used forever, literally forever.

So, yeah, I was like, oh, cool, I'm going to put a Sasquatch on it. So I spent an awful lot of time and energy figuring that out because me and Arduino IDEE and me are not best friends the Helltech board itself is super proprietary

so all of their like commands and stuff are like their own so you can't it was it was not easy to do I ended up spending a lot of time begging people for help on the Arderino Discord but eventually we got it going but yeah so that was like another board that I made

and I just kind of kept going from there slightly more intricate every time so do have having something like the flipper was really a catalyst that allowed me to try to do some things that I never would have tried before. And starting off small and then working your way up, it's kind of a good way to, again, that's a great way to learn how to do anything. So what you're saying is this is a gateway drug? It really is, though. If you ask anybody who really got into it, like, it really is, especially, I mean, because you can go from there.

And then I started messing with firmware. And actually, one of the first things that I did, too, was I started messing with animations. How I made my initial reputation was actually for writing the tutorial on how to make flipper animations. Because before I had written it down, the only way to really find out how to do that was to go literally beg people to tell you how it's done. And a lot of cases, those people, because they learned how to do it from Val.

Val was the animator for the official flipper project, and occasionally she would show up in their discord, and everybody would gather around and start asking all these questions. But nobody had formally written down the process for it. And even once I figured it out, or once I was kind of taught how to do it from all the other people, I had some stuff wrong, too. I had made some assumptions, and some of the things that I was doing were incorrect. and I only found out until later that, like, oh, okay, cool. So, you know, the tutorial was a living project, so we kept changing it. But, yeah, it was really interesting because there's so many things you can do on it. Then I started making the animations.

And then I realized that I didn't like the way the top bar looked because it was hiding too much of the screen. Somebody had already figured out how to get rid of the, there's a little ribbon cable that sits on the top of the screen on the flipper interface. Somebody already figured out how to get rid of that. So I'm like, well, if you can get rid of that, I want to get rid of the SD card icon and stuff. So I spent a ton of time in the firmware figuring out how to delete that. Because, again, I don't know C at all. All I can do is look at code and try to understand it and modify it. So I spent hours and hours and hours doing that, and eventually I figured it out.

So it got me a little bit more comfortable working with, you know, working with the firmware. So I started making custom stuff to firmware as well. So again, it just this little silly device. It's supposed to be some sort of cyber tech or cybersec like epet. Is, yeah, a great intro into whatever you want to do with it. You know, not only a gateway drug as far as hardware goes, you've actually started writing some code and messing about in the sea at this point. So it's broken you in entirely into the cybersecurity world.

Yeah, in general, yeah. Well, so again, that's been really fun. And it just gives you a reason to kind of mess around with stuff. Yeah, totally. I want to talk about firmware in a second, but the one thing I wanted to talk about was there's some criticism about this device that I've seen from other major YouTubers and stuff, talking about how you could use a Raspberry Pi to do most of these things.

But it just seems, like, to me that seems insane because starting with a blank Raspberry Pi and having to build all of these attachments and write all these apps yourself or find them and modify them and install them versus just getting this tiny little device and already supporting so many different things, radio bands, NFC, so many things that you would have to figure out how to build a circuit board

to add onto a Raspberry Pi just seems insane to me versus just paying $300 and getting this thing. Yeah, and I mean, it's the, right now, the official pricing, because they were always inflated in the aftermarket, but official pricing in America is like $169. It was like $170. Yeah. And what's a Raspberry Pi going for now?

The last one I bought was like $75. Yeah, true. And then, yeah, you have to write your own software. You have to add all the modules and stuff. And then you have this monstrosity that's just enormous that you have to like, I guess you're going to try to use it at that point. Obviously, you're not doing anything like actually red teaming with it because, I mean, you're going to need a briefcase.

It's, this doesn't make any sense. So I do understand that. And honestly, I have been waiting for someone to do a good write-up of, a DIY flipper zero, because I will absolutely make that, for sure, because that's just fun. I would totally do that,

but especially to show what it takes to make a flipper zero. Yeah, totally. But obviously all the coding and stuff for that is just all just crazy. So trying to actually do that seems like a fool's errant, if anything, because I've heard a ton of people say

they're going to do it. I'm going to make a cheaper flipper zero. I'm like, okay, cool, where's your startup capital? Get ready. You're going to need some coders. Yeah, well, I don't know, the idea of trying to rebuild.

Like, I could see trying to make a better version of it, but I could never see the idea of trying to make a cheaper version of it. Like, I don't find it particularly... For what you get, I don't find it particularly expensive. Like, I've wasted... Like, I think we're in Canada, so I think this thing costs me like $260, which is, you know, give or take a little bit of conversion

and maybe a little bit of aftermarket pricing from distribution taxes or something, but essentially the same thing is what you pay. But, like, I couldn't imagine trying to build one of these things with this much functional. and this much extensibility for less and be able to manufacture and sell it at a profit and sustainable for cheaper than that. That seems wild to me. Yeah, one of the main reasons why trying to recreate this doesn't make sense is simply because Flipper is as much a community project as it is the actual devs. So it's got a year worth of all these really smart people putting in all this work trying to make this thing work correctly.

And I think that's literally like one of the biggest selling points for this thing at this point. Think about the last time you heard a breach story on this show. It always starts the same way. Someone somewhere saw something too late. An alert buried, a signal missed, an SOC that just couldn't keep up. Arctic Wolf set out to solve that problem by rebuilding security operations from the ground up for a world where attackers are already using AI. They created the Aurora Super Intelligence Platform with fully agentic. system powered by the swarm of experts. Instead of single-purpose bots or lucky-guess

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So for I guess someone like me who doesn't own one of these things yet, but is sort of up to speed on what it can do, where's that line between what it can really do out of the box, the sort of like manufacture intended uses and what the community has empowered it to do? Like a broad overview of what it can do and what people have figured out it can do. Sure. So the basically the bear model flipper, especially in the earlier times, obviously they have frequencies and things that are locked out for different places. And honestly, most people don't really need to use those frequencies, but that's one of the things that the custom firmwares do. But beyond that, most of the good applications are written by the community. Obviously, the frequency analyzers and some of the IR functions, like those are things that were built by the original devs. But all of the additional hardware and functionality has been from the community. So you've got a lot of stuff, like, again, using,

the Wi-Fi board that comes with it, or that you can buy with it, that's set up with a firmware called Black Magic. What that's for is it's a log viewer, it's a debug viewer, so you can wirelessly read the logs from Flipper. That's what it was more or less designed to do. What the community ended up doing was installing Just Call Me Coco's Wi-Fi Marauder on it. Now you can test Wi-Fi devices, so you can de-authenticate Wi-Fi devices, you can record their handshake so you can try to decryp passwords and things like that. So a lot more functionality. You've also got people like Rabbit Lab out there and AWAC making all sorts of boards. So again, we've got the NRF board, which I mentioned before, for trying to intercept wireless keyboards and

mice. You've got a number of different CC-1101 is basically the chip set that they use to get sub-gaggaghertz frequencies. And basically the community is made. ones of those that work for 10 times further than what it currently works on without it. So they really added to the functionality, to the base functionality, through all of these community projects. And it's just really cool to see. So the sub-giggahertz frequencies, what are they typically used in? Do you know?

So, I mean, they're normally 433 and 900, I believe. Okay. And they're used in what, like ID passcards and stuff? right? Is that those? So those The ID pass cards are yeah those are going to be RFID or there's going to be NFC both of which the

flipper can definitely handle and the the wireless stuff is anything from older car keys well granted you can read a car key it's no problem you just can't use it in most current keys because they use rolling codes

which basically just means they have a sequential list of codes that it will use based on an algorithm and without knowing the algorithm, you don't know the next code, so you can't use it. But that's what the CC11 sub-gaggaghertz stuff does. Same with, I use in the control lights and stuff and little other stuff like that. And then, yeah, it does NFC, so it can read a lot of myfair keys. You can decrypt, if you have enough of the segment, sorry. And, yeah, you can emulate a lot of RFID stuff for pretty easy.

easy to copy. So anything that's relatively low security, you can pretty much copy too. And then you can get some data off of credit cards, which was a bit of a problem because that's why they got kicked off at Amazon, because Amazon saw that as being able to skim credit cards, which it definitely does not do. Yeah. So like in the old, you know, hacker movies and movies that have some cybersecurity professional and somebody steals somebody's like hotel key room card, these things like, When I first got it, I was looking through all the little sections. I updated to the newest firmware and stuff. Went through some of the apps. And it's as easy as like hitting read, tapping the card, and then hitting emulate and then tapping the hotel room door. And boom, it opens. Yeah. And that will work on some systems.

It won't on some other ones. It depends on the libraries and the dictionaries that you have. Of course. But, yeah, I mean, it's literally, in a lot of cases, that easy. Let's chat about the firmware world because that was one thing. when I got this thing, I was like, what do I do with it? I didn't even buy an SD card because I didn't realize it needed one. I did that too. I am that guy as well, so don't feel too bad. I got it. And then I was like looking around at it. And then I see some of your videos and I see

some other content about them. And I was like, man, it seems like mine's missing a bunch of stuff. And then I started looking into it. And there's a bunch of different major firmware manufacturers. You want to let maybe, as somebody that's been a part of that community, just give me a rundown or give us a rundown of like, you know. So, yeah, I can do that. Basically, I'll do a quick little story time in case we want to know. I like that.

I like story time. And I'm pretty sure this is pretty accurate. Not 100% on everything, because again, this is all like spoken word history, but hopefully my memory is good enough for this. So, yeah, basically in the beginning, it was just the normal firmware. And then there was nano and,

engineer, I want to say. There were two guys that were working on the firmware earlier on. Then it ended up just being nano for one reason or another. We won't get into. And then, yeah, basically Unleashed was born at that point in time. The fact

that they unlocked the frequency regular, the frequency blocks for certain countries was relatively frowned on upon in the official firmware land. So most of those guys got kind of exile for lack of a better term.

So that kind of branched off. So now we have Unleashed firmware. And then Roguemaster came along. And basically what Roguemaster was doing was taking the Unleashed firmware, adding things like animations, which was one of the things that got me into Roguemaster firmware anyway,

because I like animations and stuff like that. I have like a touch of the ADHD and things that are moving around kind of, you know, make me happy. But yeah, so that was one of the things that I liked. about it. And then he would also go through and scrub pretty much any application that he could find for the, for Flipper, and he would add it to the firmware, like, right away. So that app

had, or that would have basically the newest everything on it all the time. One of the downsides to that was some of these apps didn't work super well yet. Um, because again, this is, we're all doing all the bleeding edge technology or technology, but bleeding edge software. So sometimes those things wouldn't work and you'd end up with stuff that crashed. But I mean, again, if you want the latest and greatest, sometimes you run into issues with compatibility. So that's where Roguemaster kind of came from. And then Extreme popped up with Clara. She started working on a firmware, I want to say it was December of last year, as kind of an aesthetic pack on top of Roguemaster. And that was more or less the idea.

started optimizing some of the codes there. At some point, decided to reset and basically rebuild that firmware based off of the official firmware, so it's no longer a fork. And then they started working on more stuff there. Willie showed up,

and Willie is their main dev now there too, and really started doing some new stuff. Willie's very good at C and coding for a Flipper in particular. So at that point, Extreme really started doing a lot of really unique things. So most of the newest stuff out there has been really pushed and helped out by Willie and Extreme, the firmware. So they've done a lot of good stuff over there.

So right now, most of the Extreme firmware is, they've got most of the newest stuff out there because people are reaching out to the XFW devs whenever they have a new project or something, and they're actually being very active with the community in adding support for different add-on modules and stuff like that. So it's really been cool because, yeah, you can make something, like Rabbit Labs will make an antenna and reach out to XFW and be like,

hey, can you make sure this is going to work well on your firmware? And they'll add a function to it. like the ability to actually plug in external IR had to be built into the firmware because obviously it didn't exist because there was no real reason to do it. But because of that, now we have the ability to plug in IR boards that have seven or 12 or whatever LEDs on it. So it's a lot more functionality, but that had to be built into the firmware. And the fact that, you know, people could just go out and ask Willie if they could, you know, try to get it put into the firmware. it was pretty cool. So those are the main three

firmwares right now. Wait, main three custom firmwares. There were some earlier things that were kind of abandonedware, but like, yeah, that's pretty much where things

are at at the moment. So as, when I got it, obviously, as an extreme person, I put on the extreme firmware. Was that, was that the right move?

There are no wrong moves. Honestly, I tell everybody to try what, you know, try everything out. They all have their pluses and minuses, absolutely. And they all have different kind of artistic directions as far as what they're made for. Like Unleashed is a little bit less, it's a little trimmed down for a reason.

Like, they don't include as many things because they really, the idea for extreme was to include functionality, but let people decide what apps and files and stuff they wanted. where like Roguemaster was just like I want everything on it I want to just everything it's available I want to put in my firmware and Extreme decided they wanted to redo everything so they kind of just made their own stuff like they redid the entire UI they added their own settings and things like that they were the ones that finally figured out

how to change themes and stuff which is something that I had wanted to do for a while but again I'm not a coder so that was way outside of my my realm of influence, but they did a lot of really cool stuff that I always wanted to see implemented, so I was always impressed by that. As somebody who hasn't spent much time playing with it or using it or looked into building anything for it or even shoved any boards or modules in the GPIO, the one thing in the extreme firmware that I got to say I loved was the ability to turn it off easier.

Instead of having to go through the menus and find the power off switch, you could just tap on the back button until it prompted you to turn off. And that as a basic user meant a lot to me. And I was like, wow, this is great. So here's a funny thing. And this is something that catches people off guard all the time. And it did the same thing for me. That function is in the official firmware.

However, you have to hold it for a very, very, very long time. To the point we were like, is this working? So it does do that in the official firmware. They just cut the time down to like two seconds or one second. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know because when I first got it and I had the default firmware, I tried. And I was like, you've got to be able just to hold this button down.

And I held it for a long time and it never prompted me to turn off. And then I was like, oh, my God, do I actually have to go into the menu and go to the power, turn it off through there? And so that is funny that it did exist. It just was a user experience problem rather than a code issue. Yeah. And I always thought, I'm like, why do you have to hold it so long? This is weird.

Yeah, that's interesting. Like, it's good to know some of the background of this thing as, as it definitely, like, I recently flew somewhere and I didn't want to take it. You know, I'm kind of afraid of it in a small way. I'm like, is this going to emit problematic radio transmissions and I don't want to have it on an airplane? Will I get stopped at customs for having this thing? Like, what is, what is the liability that I've now taken on by owning this thing and

carrying it around with me. And for the most part, it won't be an issue. Don't go to Brazil. I think that's probably the one caveat, but yeah, for the most part, it's really not a big deal. People travel with these all a time. Granted, yeah, because we had a bunch of, everybody went to DefCon. So a bunch of flippers, so they all made it.

Cool. I think we're going to be a DefCon next year, so hopefully we'll see you there. Yeah, I'm wanting to go, and I've already kind of mentioned to my employer and stuff that I'll probably be doing that. So, Yeah, I very much hope to go next year. Let's chat about some of the modules that go on this thing because it seems like there's a lot of them.

And it seems like there's a lot that kind of do the same thing. I've looked at some of the ones from AWAC, is that right? Yep, AWAC. And some of them seem as impressive as the Flipper Zero itself, literally. Like I look at some of these modules and I'm like, oh my God, somebody like massive OLED screen, bunch of like external antenna arrays. Like they're,

they seem really comprehensive. So like what, what have you found to be some of the best modules? Actually, I'm going to reframe that question and say, what should I buy to play more with this thing? Okay. Because that's really what I'm asking.

It's pretty easy. So first things first, doesn't matter where you get it from, buy a Wi-Fi board. You can get the official one. That's fine. Or you can get one from literally almost anyone. AWalk's a good friend of mine.

And yeah, get an external Wi-Fi board. That's really, really cool. Beyond that, the external CC-11-1s are very cool because it extends the range that Flipper has, like, buy a lot. So you can, you know, you can access things that are much, much further away. And it's a lot, this makes it a lot easier to, you know, to actually do the things you want to do.

And the CC-1101 is used for what exactly? Is that sub-gigahhertz? Yeah, it's a sub-gigahhertz range extender. Okay. So what you're referring to is actually a really interesting thing. You're looking at the dual ESP32 touchscreen. That's a very cool project for a number of reasons. And it's a project that I, when he first sent me the pictures of this thing,

I was like, oh, man, this is always what I wanted this to be. the original design of this or the original one I actually made I wanted to do a because I put the touchscreen on a combo board so I had a touchscreen ESP 32 and then I had a NRF 24 on that so kind of the earlier version of the dual ESP and then my next one that I made which was my Yeti board which was actually a PCB project I worked on with a guy named I.M. O'Ryan.

And what that was actually had two ESP 32s on it, one of which was running the screen, so you could run, just call me Coco's Wi-Fi Marauder, because the software, the firmware that actually runs the Wi-Fi card,

you know, the Flipper Wi-Fi card, that's the same one that Coco uses in his ESP-32 Marauder standalone setups. So he actually has a device, which is for Wi-Fi penetration testing, and it's a standalone device, and it's got its own firmware. The ESP 32 runs the screen. So when I realized that, I was like, all right, cool, I put that onto one of my boards. But what I really wanted to do was I wanted to have two ESP 32s, one that was on its own and one that was run by the flipper. The idea was, basically,

you used the flipper to do a de-authentication attack against a Wi-Fi. device. So that's going to kick that device off of the Wi-Fi. And then use the standalone to get the PCAP files, the handshake files, for when it reconnects. So you're kind of doing two halves of the same attack where you are, you know,

both kicking something off of a network and trying to capture when they try to reconnect. So that's why this board, why I made my board. And then Awok saw that and he's like, okay, that's a cool idea. So he made the one that he has as basically what I wanted to do just done by somebody who's better at it. So yeah, that's what the dual ESP 32 that he created was, was pretty much the same idea of the one that I did just executed much better. So that just for, you know,

explanations sake, ESP 32 are Wi-Fi chips, correct? Basically, it's a Wi-Fi board and some of them have Bluetooth. Gotcha, gotcha. And then something, you mentioned a few times that I'm not fully up on and don't fully understand what it is. I doubt Jordan does. The Wi-Fi Marauder. What exactly is the Wi-Fi Marauder? The ESP-32 Marauder is an entire program set, and what that does is it can do de-authentication attacks, it can scan Wi-Fi networks, it can capture handshakes.

It basically can send and receive Wi-Fi stuff. and you can just basically figure out what you want to do with the information that you're sending or receiving. Can it sniff? Can it sniff on, like, unencrypted network traffic? So, yes and no.

I don't think you're getting as much data as you would on like WireShark or anything. Yeah. But it's, you can sniff a decent amount of stuff and you can just sniff raw and just see what you get. So yeah, you can do a decent amount of stuff with it.

So the, let's just talk about P-CAP stuff for a sec, because I know what it is, but some other people might not. So the D-Oth, let's just start with D-Ath. So when you D-Oth attack something, you're essentially punting it from a Wi-Fi network, correct? Yeah. So D-authentication attack is very politely asking a device to get off the network. Yeah.

And then P-CAPs, so when you reconnect to a Wi-Fi network, essentially your computer and the network have a little negotiation and pass a bunch of keys back and forth that agree that they should, that this device should go on the network, and that's called the authentication process, which is what the P-CAP files represent, correct? Yeah, yep. Perfect. Okay.

And you can take those P-CAP files, and through a different process, you can actually dictionary attack or brute force the Wi-Fi password, correct? Yeah, you can use, well, there's a bunch of things, but I think we use HachCat for that, usually. Yeah, perfect. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was fully aware. of kind of what the Wi-Fi Marauder toolbox does. Because you've mentioned a number of times, and I know that there's a lot of boards that I see

and a lot of extensions, even some stand-alones from Coco that run it. And I just wanted to make sure I knew what it was before I got one of these beautiful things and plugged it into this thing and figured out what kind of devious things I can get up to. Yeah, so that's basically what Just Call Me Coco does is the Wi-Fi Marauder stuff.

Nice. their devices and as well as AWAC's devices, both seem really, really nice. The Rabbit, what was the Rabbit when you mentioned? So, yeah, Rabbit Labs. Check out Rabbit Labs. I find them, like, every search I make for these things, I always end up on some website that I'd never known to exist called Tindy. I think it's called Tindy.

Is that right? Yeah. So he's, yep, tindy.com slash story slash T-EH Rabbit with two T's and two B's. So the, because I think Rabbit makes a lot of the information. red, the IR booster boards, right? That's Rabbit. Rabbit makes the IR booster boards. He was the first one to do them.

He's got a really good IR. He's got two of them, really. He's got the Mastoblasta, which is, I believe, 12 LED. So it's really strong. There's a lot of range there. And the first one he made was the Death Star, IR Blaster. And one of the things that's really cool about Rabbit Labs. And again, all these guys have their own specific style.

And it's all very different. It's kind of interesting when you look at it. And basically Rabbit Labs does a lot of really cool screen printing and things like that. And his stuff has a different vibe to it than everybody else is. And then AWOC, again, he does like, it's hard to explain without showing the different things that people are making. Yeah, yeah. But they have a very distinctive style. Awok's a musician and a graphic artist.

and it really comes through in his electronics in a lot of ways. Totally. And then Rabbit is just a hardware dude. So he just makes really good, complicated stuff. And then puts fun screen printing and stuff on it. And everything's got like a little bit of a personality. He's got a coming out a Minion ESP 32 board,

which looks like one of the minions. And it's just those little things. Yeah, he's got a, a midian marauder. And it's just cool. It's just, he makes cool stuff. All these guys make really cool stuff. Because the,

the, the Death Star is an IR blaster, right? And it's kind of, yeah, yep. It's got like, I've seen a video of it. It's got like a glowing light,

like as the Death Star Canon when it's powered up and stuff. It's just like a cool. They are very, very cool little, little things. Oh, so, yeah, like, it's just a,

it's a great way of marketing, too, if you think about it, because, I mean, obviously it looks cool. so people are going to look at it and they're going to want it. So, yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, the AWAC stuff, I've been waiting for something to come back in stock.

It seems like he sells out pretty fast or they sell out pretty fast. I would love to order some of their products and I'd love to get one of their t-shirts. I love their kind of, they're very kind of graffiti artisty DJ inspired. Yeah, I know. His t-shirts are awesome. Yeah, and he makes those too. He sells out extremely fast. And people don't realize that these shows.

Shops are people. Like, rabbit labs, just call me Coco, AWAC, they're just people. And they have jobs and families and stuff like that. So they can't mass produce a hundred of something. Like, well, actually, Rabbit does. Rabbit's, that dude's a beast. He makes a lot of stuff.

But it's also because of the things that he does is set up to do things like that. Like he can batch surface mount stuff in an oven. Like he can do that. Most people can't. He's got a part picker. Like he's got stuff that nobody has because it's prohibitively expensive if you're doing something like this. A lot of the modules you buy are literally just raw circuit boards.

And it seems like most people then 3D print custom cases for them. And you can even download the print files from the circuit board makers often. Like here's the case if you want to print your own case. It seems like an ecosystem just ripe for. gadgety people, you know, like, hey, there's a cool gadget here. This gadget also requires you to get other gadgets that then require you to get a 3D printer to print new gadgets. It just seems like a gadget ecosystem.

And I'm not opposed to it. I like gadgets. I'm a big gadget guy, so. Well, no, you're absolutely right. And again, this is where one of the things that happened because of basically these cases, that's kind of when I started doing some of the 3D printing stuff I was doing. I picked up an Ender 3 back in, like, February. or something because A, I wanted to mess around with 3D printing, and B, it was a cool backdrop

item. I would have it printing what I was filmed. I just thought that was cool. Do it all for the content. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I bought a printer and I spent some time modding it and messing around with that. So I kept printing more and more, learning more and more about 3D printing and, you know, putting designs on stuff. And so I'd keep posting stuff like that. Well, the interesting thing about that was that's how. I actually got asked by Deadmouse to make him a case. So, yeah, yeah, because he had posted a picture of his flipper with a Wi-Fi board plugged into it like a couple weeks ago. And I just ran him, somebody's like, oh, look, hey, Deadmost's got a, he's got a flipper.

So I'm like, oh, screw. I got to put a comment on there. So I commented it on there like, hey, man, if you ever needed like any flipper stuff. He's like, yeah, I've heard about you. I've heard good things. And I was like, holy crap. so yeah so then he DMs me and he's asking if I could make him a case for it so I'm like yeah yeah absolutely but like yeah it's the weirdest thing like one random email because I started a YouTube channel

about Flipper Zero and now I'm printing a case for Dead Mouse which I think it got delivered today so yeah it's just it's just really weird but again it just goes to show like this is another one of those situations that Flipper Zero and just the little weird things that you run into along the way, like, you'd really never know what that butterfly effect is going to have. So the, so this tiny little device that you probably kick started, I'm assuming. No, I didn't. You didn't? I didn't kickstart it.

No, I was, I was so lucky. I randomly, I don't know if I ran into an ad or what, but I know that they were really hard to get, but I didn't really know much about them. Randomly saw an ad about it, and I saw they were in stock. I'm like, screw it, I'm going to buy it, whatever. I don't buy things for myself very often anyway. So I'll go buy it, whatever. I don't care.

Yeah, so you bought this thing. Then you started designing circuits free and soldering circuit boards. Then you started writing C, and now you're like hanging out with Dead Mouse. So that is your Flipper Zero story arc. I'm not hanging out, per se, but I've talked to him a bunch of times. Actually, he's this really cool guy. It's really weird. I've met a bunch of people.

I actually just ran into Zero. day yesterday. And super cool guy too. All these people that actually know who I am because of this YouTube channel. And the YouTube channel really was, I was almost bullied into doing it anyway, which I thought was interesting.

Because originally, the only reason why I started doing this was, if you've done much digging into all the files and stuff, you may have heard of Uber Garritos. He was like the most, most well-known dude possible in Flipper World.

So, and he was around in some of the discords and stuff, but he had seen my tutorial for making animations, and he's like, hey, you do a pretty good job of writing down tutorials and stuff like that. I've got a project I'm involved in with

Lab 401, and we're making tutorial videos on how to use some of these devices. I'd be really happy to have you, you know, join that. Yeah. So that's where I got into making a video for Lab 401. And I, at that point, after that, I decided to start making my own stuff.

But, yeah, basically, Uber was like, hey, you want to do this? And he was, again, the coolest guy I knew at the time. So I'm like, oh, I sure, yeah, no problem. And, yeah, it was because of him. I even started doing any of this stuff. See, now I just feel bad for Uber because he was the coolest guy you knew at the time. But now you're hanging out with Dead Mouse. You're like, yeah, Uber's just a regular guy now.

Uber's a busy dude. I'm friends with him on, like, actual Facebook. And yeah, he's a busy dude. He's got a lot of stuff going on. So where do you think this thing's going to go next? You know, are there any projects that you're aware of any new functionality that you think people are building for it? Do you think it's just going to be kind of, is there anybody out there that's really, like, taking it to the next level? Like, is there something we should watch out for?

Or, like, you know, where does it go now? That's a really good question, honestly. So I do know that there's a new piece of hardware coming out called the flip. Nano. And that is a basically a flipper with less internal functionality and two rows of GPIO. So you have

twice the output. Oh, I guess input output. So there will definitely be a bit of a paradigm shift whenever that goes. Who knows if that will be this coming year, the year after that. Who knows? Timeframes for flipper stuff is

you don't want to mess with them. You never know. But that's a project coming out. But again, the crazy thing about, and this is every, every kind of field or every whatever genre of stuff, but someone will just show up and be a game changer. They'll just out of nowhere roll up and do something nobody thought was possible. And it just unlocks just so much potential. Like, it's just, everything all of a sudden happens. The one of the things I've been wondering about this device is, you know, is there a dark web, some private discords, places like that where you can get more, how should I put this, aggressive applications? Like the, like stealing a car keys rolling key code is very plausible. There's devices that do it already. It's actually not that hard. And the flipper probably has most of the functionality or could be extended to have the functionality to do it. Is, are there

places where people build apps that are a little bit less and build and share apps that are a little bit less publicly accepted? So absolutely. Now, I'm not aware of any like specific place. I'm also not the best person to tell about stuff like that. Not that I'm going to like make a video on it really, but being a little bit more higher profile person, I don't really. I don't really, I don't get invitations to the dark web as often as I used to. But so there are people that write scripts. Like I have scripts right now that I won't give out. Like I have a Flipper Zero ransomware scripts and I have a key logger scripts.

So there's a bunch of stuff that I am aware of and things that I have because I've used them for videos before. But are there places out there? that, you know, are writing codes for stuff, maybe. Like, because I know that Zero Day had mentioned on an interview he had done, that he was doing some things on his flipper that, at the time, weren't really being done yet. But honestly, since then, we've realized that, I mean, they do,

those scripts have been written. So whether or not he had those early or, you know, wrote him himself or whatever. But, you know, it did imply that some people had things that, other people did it. Just like I have some things that other people don't. And other people have things that I don't. Well, the, as an appeal to the community, if you were a member of a community or Discord that builds flipper scripts that maybe aren't public, fire me a DM.

Just hit me up. I'd be intrigued to know what else is going on under the covers. Because when I got this thing and when I realized what it was, like I thought it was, a tool and then I realized it was a platform. I was like, oh, there's a bunch of built-in functions already, but then you have the ability to extend it, and then you have the ability to essentially custom develop whatever you'd like for it.

What's cool about that idea, too, is seeing it as a platform, because also you have an incredibly powerful computer in your pocket already that can communicate with Flipper. So as far as, yeah, figuring out the algorithm, your phone could probably do that pretty quick. So I'm intrigued. I mean, yeah, I know I'm just intrigued to see.

I'm intrigued to know what you don't find on YouTube about this thing. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. Yeah, I know. I 100% agree. And I do look for it. I look for that stuff too. Obviously on Reddit and all sorts of other places.

I'm constantly looking for new stuff. Again, being who I am, it's a little bit easier because people reach out to me. So someone will just hit me up in DMs be like, I made a payload encryptor or something like that. I'm like, oh, that's cool. And that's how I met. That's literally how I met Red, who was the guy who wrote the ransomware and keylogger. And yeah, he's just like, hey, I made this one thing.

And then he was like, hey, do you know anybody who has this? And I'm like, nah, I don't know anybody who has this. And he's like, well, I do. I'm like, tell me more. Well, I do. I like that. Sounds like Red's a guy that I'd like to meet. Yeah, this is a very interesting little device.

I'm intrigued to, I should say, play with it. but I would say educate myself more on its functionality and what can be done and how I can extend it or it can be extended to do different things because it's coming from the software world. I'm familiar with all kinds of software vulnerabilities and code problems and things like that, but I've never really been into the hardware side,

and this has definitely piqued my interest. You know, I've, aside from emulating circuit designs that have been given to me to make musical instruments often, I've never really built anything. And now I have this desire to build a board. And I'm not sure what I wanted to do yet. Yeah.

And I mean, you can do pretty much, you can do a lot of stuff. And if you're a code guy, definitely check out code all night. Really, really cool guy named Derek Jamison. He is a phenomenal coder. I think he used to work for Microsoft. Don't quote me on that. But a really, really ridiculously, like painfully smart dude. And yeah, he writes code and apps and stuff.

like that. So if you're interested in software side and possibly coding stuff, he's a great resource for that as well. I'm curious as like a as a content creator. You know, I watched your video on the ransomware stuff that it can do. I'll watch your stuff on hacking Wi-Fi passwords. In the ransomware episode, there's this really interesting moment where you, you blur the payload essentially. And you flat out say, I'm doing this so that like a teenager doesn't get themselves arrested. And as like a fellow content creator that makes stuff about cybersecurity, like, how do you navigate that line between not wanting to empower a person to maybe mess their life up, but wanting to put this information out there and wanting to share it with curious, interest in people and

wanting to push the community forward? How do you balance those two things? It's tricky. because obviously doing things like Diothing Wi-Fi cameras which was literally the first thing I ever published. It wasn't a picture of an animation. My very first TikTok because I tried to start TikTok as a platform

which is a silly thing you do. But my first video was literally showing me disabling my video camera, my surveillance cameras. And yeah, trying to figure out where the tipping point is. Now, hacking Wi-Fi stuff

that's really, really easy information to find. So with five seconds worth of work, you can find somewhere else to get that information. So if I'm another person doing a video on how to do it, who cares, right? Right. So where I draw the line is handing someone a weapon.

And that's kind of the way I saw that video. And especially with bad USB. Now, if anybody doesn't know what bad USB is, Flipper has the functionality. Effectively, it was like a rubber ducky. So what it will do is you plug in your flipper to a computer, and you can run a script through PowerShop or whatever. You can basically use it as a keyboard, and you can do code injection.

So what that means is if I plug my flipper into something, I can run a code that is on my flipper. The problem with that is it's very, very easy to do. And when things are too easy to do, people do them without knowing why they're doing them or what might happen. So as an example, I've seen a bunch of examples. One of which was somebody almost got auto banned in my Discord by the bot because they ran a script that typed in every single line from a B movie. Sequentially, every like half second.

So they got flood spammed and they got kicked for it. But Flipper Zero can be used to infect your computer with ransomware. And, you know, just things to be aware of. Like, yeah, these things do exist. And since I have an audience that, you know, watches things about bad USB and stuff, it's a good idea to at least spread some awareness about that. And I thought it was kind of a cool thing. But again, I'm not going to hand somebody to the tool to completely screw up somebody's computer.

Sure. That makes sense. I guess minor point of clarification. When you say that person in your Discord posted B movie quotes, are you saying they posted quotes from a low budget film or from the 2007 animated comedy B movie starring Jerry Seinfeld? It was in fact the 2000s era B movie with posted, yeah, with Jerry Seinfeld in fact, yes. Sure. Where he plays a B trying to sue humanity for how they've treated B is unfamiliar.

I just wanted to confirm that. Yes, yes. Every single line of that movie in order. Yeah, posted in Discord. And yeah, that was fun. And I think the person that did that, they were actually in voice chat at the time. And you could actively hear them freaking out, which was very funny. Sure.

Oh, that's great. I mean, that kind of tangentially connects to the one other big question I had, which is like, kind of to do with internet clout and flipper zero. I watched some of your I watched Flipper Zero TikTok so you don't have to videos, quality content, just to pass on my compliments. But so many of those are about taking this device that can do a ton of stuff. It functions as a platform to do even more stuff. And a lot of the TikTok content is about lying about what it can do, which I found interesting. It's about like, watch me tap a credit card on it and boom, I have the credit card and can use it. It's like,

well, for all the things it can do, you manage to find a couple things that didn't and are now lying about it on TikTok. Why do you think it became the like, I don't know, like center of a little bit of an internet clout trend, where in a way that hacking devices really haven't done before. It was very interesting seeing how that was. And actually, I specifically picked a lot of the videos in the TikTok one that were real. Like some of the things that I showed off were real.

I featured a couple with, again, I am Jacoby and Taco Cat, I believe. So some of those things were real. But especially in the beginning. And the beginning was bad. It was really bad, honestly.

They showed some really sketchy things. One of the videos I couldn't find that I wanted to feature in that video because I thought I really needed to talk about it. But basically, some dude with a flipper zero effectively tries to show that he's stealing a card from somebody and then following them into a building. And you can kind of do that, but the way he was doing it wasn't working at all. And he was just like pushed it past a bag. But what was going on?

is people love sensationalism. They want to think that this is a sonic screwdriver. And they literally like, so when they see something like that, they immediately believe it because it's the internet. And everything on the internet must be real. I don't know why people believe anything on the internet. But yeah, so that kind of stuff went viral. And that's what people started thinking they were getting when they bought flippers. So I actually kind of cashed in.

on that idea because if I'm doing tutorials and somebody bought one of these specifically trying to do this, then maybe they'll find my channel and watch my stuff. But the flip side of that is why I made an entire video and actually spent a good amount of time with

a guy named Betsy, who's a pretty well-known guy as far as NFC goes. He spent a lot of time explaining how NFC and stuff works, but that's why I made a video specifically said, why Flipper Zero can't steal your credit cards because that was one of the most common things that I had

seen where people showing how they could use their flipper to steal credit cards. And it's just, you can't do it. It can't be done. At least not with any like normal style credit card. But yeah, there's all, there was all an awful lot of that. And I mean, it was, it was, it was, you know, getting clicks. It was getting views. I had never, ever gotten anywhere near any, of those like, you know, million view videos, even showing like the deauthic Wi-Fi cameras. And that was real. I really did that. But it never really had the same appeal as somebody, you know, fake using a credit card

or faking using it to access something that you definitely couldn't. But yeah, those videos went crazy, especially earlier on. Cloud chasing with flipper zeros on TikTok. It's a new sentence. My last question has to do with something you said earlier. We were talking about, you know, feeling safe take. taking this thing and traveling with it. You brought up Defcom, which is basically thousands of these things converging on one city. So it's obviously okay. But you made reference to

Brazil. You said, I probably wouldn't take it to Brazil. So I'm curious what happened in Brazil. And broadly, do you think there's going to be, I don't know, more of a legal response to this thing as it becomes more famous, more popular on the internet and people construe and misconstrued what it can do? Do you think there will be more legal fallout, essentially? So I think at this point, at least for most places, we're pretty much over it. Basically, Flipper devices are not certified in Brazil. They're not allowed in Brazil. Yeah, and probably mostly from, I don't know, I'm going to speculate and say auto theft.

Because now, this is a very valid point. And somebody had pointed out before because I want to say Hakista, YouTube channel, I believe he's out of the Philippines. but he pointed out that where he was located, a lot of vehicles have aftermarket keyless entry. The aftermarket ones, a lot of them don't use rolling codes. So you actually can access cars with those. So certain places got a little bit concerned about it.

And, I mean, again, even Amazon blocked the sales of them because they thought there were credit card scammers, which is the one thing it can't do. I can't do a lot of things, but it's one of the things it can't do. So, again, super interesting. And, yeah, it's, I don't see it getting banned anywhere else at this point because, again, it's not that damage is done, but at this point, you can pretty much figure out what it does and doesn't do. I mean, hell, if you're an entire country, you have the time to watch my videos. Just find out what it does first.

Watch talking Sasquatch before you pass any legislation. Yeah, just give me a few views. You can skip the ads. It's fine. It's fine. Just drop a DM. Work for us. Yeah.

Work for us. Work for dead mouse. Work for us. Just hit them up. Thank you for us. Send down and chat with us. I think that's everything I wanted to ask about. Scott, you got anything else?

No, no. I think the first hour of intense tech chatter was mostly what I was looking for. So they kept good. And definitely thanks for having me. It's been fun. So I apologize. This is my first actual long-form podcast. Oh, no. It's been, it's, every time I've done things like this, it's been tricky. Like, I did a video with David Bumble and we actually, I recorded more videos.

But that was like three hours of doing things live. I'm not used to working live. So, and I do a decent amount of post-production. So it's, again, first time being. actually on a podcast. It's, but it's been fun. It's just that's something

I've done before. So I'm getting used to the format. No, no. Well, you crushed it. Yeah. We appreciate having you. Five stars.

Five stars for talking Saswatch. Much appreciate you guys. Hey, man. Well, thanks again for coming on. And maybe we'll talk again in the future.