Heads In Beds Show - Here's What Trust Building Is Needed In The Vacation Rental Industry
Episode Date: August 27, 2025In this episode of The Heads In Beds Show, we're talking all things TRUST and what stakeholders can do in the industry to build or destroy that trust. ⭐️ Links & Show NotesPaul Manze...y Conrad O'ConnellConrad's Book: Mastering Vacation Rental MarketingConrad's Course: Mastering Vacation Rental Marketing 101🔗 Connect With BuildUp BookingsWebsiteFacebook PageInstagram🚀 About BuildUp BookingsBuildUp Bookings is a team of creative, problem solvers made to drive you more traffic, direct bookings and results for your accommodations brand. Reach out to us for help on search, social and email marketing for your vacation rental brand.
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Welcome to the Heads of Med Show presented by Build Up Bookings.
We teach you how to get more vacation rental properties, earn more revenue per property, master marketing, and increase your occupancy.
Take your vacation rental marketing game to the next level by listening in.
I'm your co-host Conrad.
And I'm your co-host, Paul.
All right, Paul. Good afternoon. What is happening? A fun pre-show that the listener doesn't get to listen to.
but what's happening, what's going on?
This was, this was a good one.
Yeah, this is, see, now we've given ourselves more buffer time.
This is probably, at some point, we will definitely run ourselves an hour through,
and then we have 30 minutes to record again.
So this is, this is just something that happens.
I mean, we've been doing this for a while, you know, so we're doing something right,
I guess, but how are you doing, sir?
Well, well, I think, I think we might have said this.
Maybe we should do like a one minute on this, you know, as like a hundred plus episodes in together
or 150 episodes in together, probably we're close to it at this point.
I was like, we already chat.
previously. We just weren't recording it. So now we're just recording it. It's basically not
that much more work than it was before. But now we've got all these downloads and listens from
it. And I think it's helped us both in a way. But the subtext for those listening is that Paul
and I, unfortunately, are competitors a little bit with this one market, this one GIA.
We won't, we'll spare the details as it were. Yeah. But, you know, naturally, that sort of
thinking happens. So it's all in good fun. And it's all in presumably, you know, good efforted
fun. But we have a client I have a client I'm working with. He's working with a client in the same
market and they're sparring a little bit as they should but it's you know it's all good um i'm winning
just if anyone listening is curious as far as what's going on but to be fair i have a much narrow
scope so it's you know it's apples and oranges it doesn't really count but yeah i'm a few under par
and paul's few over par as it were that's that's fair i think that's fair the golf analogy
yeah no of course we're we're joking and have a good time um i'll get there well let's see so
this one this one it's a common one that people will ask questions about this like trust and i think
trust as a proxy, if you will, for, or I could say brand, sorry, as a proxy, if you will, for
trust. When someone says that they trust a brand or they trust a company, well, I guess what
they're saying is they know what to expect, they know what they're going to get out of it.
And I think a lot of smaller, newer companies misunderstand how important this particular
factor is in their success, both on the guest demand, direct booking side. And I would argue
in the homeowner, you know, attraction or, you know, growth side of things. They don't understand
that, like, someone coming in new doesn't seem appealing to the market. Like, they're like,
we don't need anyone new or we don't want anyone new and they don't see a lot of success
early on and they go, man, you marketing people suck, right? You got all these clicks, you got me all
this traffic and it's not turned it to anything valuable from an inventory property management
growth perspective or from a direct booking perspective and they think, oh, this marketing stuff
doesn't work. I'm too small. I'm whatever. But I think if we set the table a little bit
differently and said, how do I get more people to trust me first, then getting them to agree
to manage their million dollar beach home or getting them to agree to book directly in the
website, give me $10,000 to book on my website would be a little bit easier. So,
If anything, it's a little bit of that.
I think this is like a, what am I looking for here?
There's one of these people who talks about like the inverse thinking where it's like
what makes someone not trust you.
And then by proxy, if we do the opposite of those things, inverse thinking, I think it's
a Charlie Munger thing.
Sorry, my brain's not firing in all cylinders here because of all the trash talking
before we hit record.
Yeah, that's right.
It's all good there.
So that's the thing.
We're going to talk a little bit about really more so the breaking trust and building
trust things that happens kind of with the guest traveler side and the property
manager side.
And then there's even, I would say, other layers to this, right?
There's the OTA platforms.
What do they do to build?
trust. There's the, you know, layers, government bodies, policymakers, local, you know,
people, did neighbors actually welcome short-term rentals or do they hate short-term rentals or so
many things there? So what's your thoughts on kind of this trust building as a proxy for
like brand awareness and how do we improve it as we get home? I think it's a really great parallel
there. And I do like, as you were talking about that specifically on the owner's side and
new businesses kind of emerging and trying to start and trying to grow themselves,
I can't tell you how many, I mean, this is this is kind of the benefit.
of seeing behind the scenes with Ventories, I got to see like 400 different applications and
see these different snapshots and see email communications and things like that.
And it was really interesting to see some of these that I, you know, following some of those
three to five unit starters, just trying to make it.
And a lot of the responses that they got back was, I don't see a lot on your website right now.
Get back to me when you've got a few more.
I definitely, I'm interested in what you're saying.
but I don't see that you've done this.
You haven't developed that, you know, built that equity.
You haven't built that trust.
So I think that that's, you know, kind of layering that on top of the brand.
You haven't built that brand.
You haven't built that awareness for people to know this is what you are.
This is what you're all about.
This is, I mean, this is what your logo is.
As simple as that, these are your colors.
These are identifying characteristics.
And certainly the more you learn about that brand, the more, you know, more of a relationship.
that you can develop in.
And yeah, I think that this is, the different layers,
it's not just guests and owners.
It's not just, it's not just OTAs in this and that way,
but the OTA's conversation is going to be a juicy one.
But that's something that the topic for the episode kind of just came as I was in the
middle of, I think a little bit of a rage rant over one of the vendors in a space.
Again, it's how do you break that trust?
we've built the trust over years and years and years working with the same people and doing
things like that.
But it's really easy to break that trust.
And in a hurry, the phrase trust but verify is something that I've certainly become more
accustomed to in my professional career.
That's something that hadn't struck me.
You know, I think it's a Reagan quote or maybe going back to Nixon or maybe something like that.
I could be wrong.
It's something like that.
Before our time, to be fair, to your listeners.
Before our time for sure.
So, but yeah, I mean, I think that's something that you have to trust the people you're working with, the guests that you have, the owners you're working with, the government, to have the right oversight and not be too oversighty or anything like that, all these things.
So it's fun to kind of be able to dive into this in a certain, a lot of different levels there.
So I'm excited.
Well, I think you nailed it a second ago, right?
It takes a lifetime to build trust or at least a long time to build trust and you can't break it in a moment by doing something very unethical.
or untold. Think of any romantic relationship you've had. If you've ever been cheated on,
it's like, maybe you were that with that person for five years. And then that happens. And then
you lose all your trust. You're like, okay, no longer trust you. And most people will end a
relationship over that, obviously. So that's a bit of a stream example, more personal. But,
you know, anything can happen in that. Imagine you've always acted in the home's best
interest. And then the homeowner catches you doing something, not in their best interest. You
booked a guest and then did give them the revenue one time. Oh, there's an accounting error. I
had to move someone, you know, whatever the case may be, right? And then all of a sudden,
they go, okay, well, maybe you've managed my home for five years, but I no longer trust that
you're acting my best interest, or they notice that you mark up a vendor bill 100% and they
saw the original on accident and they didn't know about that. They didn't know you were doing it.
And they go, oh, wait a second, this was a $100 repair bill and you build me $2.25. How's that fair?
So a lot of these things, I think, if you're not communicating, you know, the right way,
can, you know, again, it just takes one moment, right, to break that trust.
And sometimes it's more subtle. Sometimes it's not these egregious offenses, if you will.
It could just be the fact of what you said a moment ago, Paul, why trust a company that's
brand new? What are they actually showing to you that makes you feel like they're actually going
deliver for you. You know, it's like everyone says the same thing on homeowner marketing.
We've kind of be this one. I hope we haven't beat it to death, but we beat this one within
an inch of its life where everyone makes the same claims in direct mail marketing on, you know,
revenue generation. And I'm going to take care of property and all these kind of stuff.
So at some point, you're just like, well, I guess I'll just pick the big company, the big company.
They all say the same thing. But this one, other people have trusted them with their property,
presumably their million dollar beach house or mountain cabin rental or a ski chalet or whatever.
I guess I could do the same as well. So it's kind of this built in trust that you generate through
social awareness, that sort of thing. But it's like when you're new, you've got to figure out
how do you actually get there? So, all right, so let's hit some of these things on our outline here
and kind of go through it because I think we could start with even like property owner level
itself and host or property managers. It could be smaller, you know, smaller people that maybe
just manage a few listings. Obviously, that's a big chunk of the industry as people that only
manage a handful listings along with these large, you know, vacational management companies.
But, you know, I think anytime the guest acts poorly, whether it's fair or not, it's going to go
back towards the industry in general. So if you are hosting people who are constantly violating
the noise rules, the trash rules, the parking rules, the occupancy rules, whether you like it or
not, all the neighbors are going to say, well, that's not fair. That's not right. And you're breaking
trust. So when you're not hosting the right way, whether you're a manager or a host, whether you
got one property, 100 or a thousand, if we don't have like that conduct that's actually tied up
properly, it's going to go the wrong way. And I think that goes perfectly in the next bullet point,
which is talking about community. You know, community is ultimately the most important thing.
And everyone says it, you know, everyone says, oh, yeah, we're involved in our community.
And then you kind of peek out of the hood of what that actually looks like for most people
and, like, you don't really see sometimes a lot there.
I'll hear people say that.
And then I can't really pin down exactly what that means.
Whereas I find some people who really lean into it.
I'm at every single city council meeting.
Every HOA meeting, even if I only manage one unit in that building, I'm showing up there
and I'm giving my feedback or my thoughts on what we're seeing.
I'm engaging in the community.
I mean, it could be on like a personal level.
It could be donating time, money, effort, energy, all these things into local causes,
you have these sorts of things.
So community makes a lot of sense to me.
I kind of said it a second ago, but like anything legal, you know, that you're complying to, so if you got to have the right permits, if you got to have the right documentation on the property somewhere, if you have to respond to noise complaints within X number of hours or X number of, you know, minutes or whatever the case may be, it depends on the area, that sort of thing. I think building trust starts with, you know, also being accurate on your listings, not doing the thing where you know, heavily edit the photos to where it looks completely fake and, you know, it never looks legit. And actually you're, you know, supporting the local economy as well. So I think between those kind of bullet points there, those are, in my mind, things that
no trust anything you'd added into that or do you want to go over to the things that break the
trust unfortunately when you go the opposite way i like the addition of the accurate listings because
i do i think that that's that's where a lot of people if not your overall brand are introduced to
your real brand we'll say i mean the brand which is the rentals themselves so i really like
that inclusion there um actions that break trust uh in ignoring those nuisance complaints oh we don't
We don't want to do that.
This is how we get into the NIMBY people, the not in my backyard is that if you continue
to break the trust of your neighborhood of your community, oh boy, are we going to be run out of
town real quick there?
We have to operate within the bounds of legality.
I know that for a while, that was not the case.
I think back to the mid-teens, early teens, it was the Wild West.
Like I remember writing little business blog post that, well, now, actually, I think.
I think Schneiderman at that point is cracking down on Airbnbs in New York City and something's happening out in California.
And now all of a sudden it's like, oh, this is happening everywhere.
But that's not a bad thing.
We should all be operating within the constraints of the law.
Whether or not the laws are written well doing things like that, and is actually addressing issues and concerns, maybe a whole other thing.
But if you are not following the law, that's going to break trust.
And with your guests, potentially, certainly with your homeowners, potentially we can go up and down the line there.
Misrepresenting properties.
This is something that I caught a few people, companies, that were, you know, grabbing random rental listings off of other general sites or directory sites and then putting them on their own and then reselling and doing things like that.
You know, that's a extreme case of misrepresenting properties.
But even, like you're talking about, manipulating the photos, manipulating the content, not being as explicit about some specific things in a unit when it's got stairs or it's got some of these things that are going to make it more difficult to live in to be a part of there.
And then contributing to the housing scarcity.
You had to post on this on LinkedIn.
That's something that in some markets, yeah, it does contribute to housing availability and reasonably priced housing availability.
some things like that. Now, is that something that is the case in every market? No, but, but in some
markets it is in some of the larger cities where Airbnbs are, I would say more Airbnbs, single
property hosts, multi property hosts, something like that are more common. I think that's probably
where we get into that contribution of housing scarcity, but this is. I mean, we've we've all seen
some of those, some of those general rental markets as well that have felt the source.
squeeze. So yeah, I think those are all items that are going to certainly break trust at
different levels of your business. Some at all levels of your business there. So anything you want
to add to the break trust. No, no. I think that represents it well. And I think ultimately,
like we said, just takes a moment. That's the hard part. Right. So you do everything right to
everything right. It's like a chain. The moment there's one break in that chain. You know,
you're back to the beginning. So no, no, I'll turn the page. I like it. What responsibility does
the guest have, you know, to build trust? And I think a lot of things we just talked about is like,
all right, maybe that's the host fault or the property miniatures fault, let's say,
kind of combine those for how they represent the listing and we want people to behave.
When they're not behaving, of course, it's the property manager's job to go through and try
to enforce that.
You have to be willing to kick people out and so on and so forth.
But look, if you're booking a vacation rental, it's your job to be a good neighbor.
It's your job to listen to the house rules, follow them, right?
I think that the truth is 95% of the time, you know, everyone, 99% of time in most places,
people are following the rules.
People are just wanting to go there and explore, have a vacation, have a visit, and enjoy it.
They're not looking to, you know, be the bad guy.
if you will. I don't think that's the motivation of most people booking vacation rentals.
Now it's some, you know, and that's the unfortunate reality. And the bigger you get,
it's not a matter of if that will happen. It's only a matter when that will happen when you end up
having that bad guess that you have to deal with in a headache way. But if you're the guest,
you know, like, yeah, I think it's irresponsible to follow all the rules. Observe the quiet hours,
you know, know the trash rules, know the parking rules, all these kind of things.
I think it's communication too. You know, one thing I'm always torn about. I think we told
the story before on the show when I, and I don't do it very often. I can count on one hand
the number of times where I booked an actual Airbnb.
What I mean by that is like when on Airbnb made a booking.
Whatever I do there, I feel like it's my responsibility.
Even if I leave a five-star review to like give actual useful feedback, the things that they
can change, something someone's can't change, you know, so if you leave feedback like,
it was too much noise at night, like, I don't know if there's a lot that the host can do
with that.
They can't control exactly, you know, someone on the other side of the building and how
they're behaving.
But if it's like, hey, like this thing didn't work, like this bathroom is bad.
This door didn't lock.
Like I think, you know, I'll use that little private note section of you, I have in the
past to be like yeah there's like I left you five star but like I'm kind of in the industry like
I'll give you some tips you know things that I've done or things that I've seen other clients do
that maybe will make you you know do a little bit of a better job so if you're a guest then you like
doing that I mean some people like doing that being critical instead of a I found a hair in
the shower I want a full refund guest we all know that person that unfortunately drives us a
little bit baddie um I think that that that's not what we're offing but yeah I think you
want to leave a fair honest review I think you can use that extra notes field to leave some legit
feedback and if you behave well and then you give the host legit feedback and the host can
act on that and make a better experience for the next guest. Awesome. You probably might be the
beneficiary of someone who stayed the property before who got some feedback to the host or property
manager and then made that rental a better experience. I think that's a small little, you know,
trust building exercise that you can take to make things a little bit better. So I'll let you do
the break trust thing. But I feel like it's kind of similar to the, you know, it's echoing
what we kind of talked about a second ago, right? Well, again, it's, I think a lot of this is that
inverse thinking of, well, if you're not being a good neighbor, then you're probably
Disrupted being a disruptive neighbor
It is. I think
of when we were down in at VRM
Intel in the panhandle
Which is notable for some
We'll say spring break parking
The party, it was funny to hear some of the stories
From the Uber drivers about the party houses and stuff like that
How much natural light is consumed in March and April
In the panhandle?
Oh boy
It's all good
But yes, I mean you want to be a good guest
Can we define being a good
guess, no, but without going too graphic, don't be a bad person.
You know, be a good person.
Be a human.
If you picked up the vacation rental and dropped it next to your house, would you want to
live next to yourself for a week?
Right.
Like, that's almost like an interesting way to think about it.
If I picked it up and popped it next to your house where you live, would you want
your neighbor to be acting how you're acting?
Right.
I think that's perfect.
Property damage.
This is something that certainly accidents happen.
That is not, that's going to happen.
You feel as bad as you want to, I guess, about it.
But if you're intentionally damaging the property, come on, that's something we don't want to have happen.
That's something that's, you know, those are going to have to be repairs, might have to be replacements.
It could be a whole variety of things.
Well, you know, a lot of the rentals that we have are in communities.
They're in HOAs.
They're in some of these other areas.
So in doing so, maybe there are shared amenities.
Maybe there's just shared spaces.
And if you're littering, if you're not following local customs, if you're being inconsiderate,
Again, just be a good person and define that however you want to, be a good neighbor.
Yeah, again, that's actions to build the trust.
Breaking the trust on a traveler is pretty easy.
I think the other thing is breaking trust on the traveler side that we've seen more frequently now is like chargebacks.
You know, after the fact, getting, trying to get that money from the property manager after you've had a good stay, after you've had a stay, you know, that bogus reviews.
that we've seen those become a little more of a trend here, not a true, like, something
we're concerned about, but they happen. Certainly, I, if I ever saw that, that you'd be the last
person I'd be renting two down the road or doing anything like that. So, and I think that's,
that's something that, you know, any as a professional property manager, that's something you have
to be considering, is that do I want to take on these guests down the road? Do I want, like,
I had one bad experience, you know, what is, probably?
Accidental property damage.
Well, what if you had them ran down the road and it wasn't accidental property damage?
And there's, you know, just some things that you have to think about there.
So I think that is pretty straightforward, but anything you want,
do you have any other horror stories per se that of guests and travel breaking?
How much time do we have, right?
I mean, yeah, I think the most egregious thing, I think I've been to tell the story before,
but the most egregious thing I've ever seen is people used to watch calendars
and then go break into properties when they knew they were unoccupied.
That, to me, was one of the worst things.
I've heard several stories of that in the past.
One where it was, like, really egregious.
And what's crazy about that is the neighbors would, like, have no reaction to it
because they were like, oh, it's a vacation model.
There's random people coming in and out all the time.
So I remember years ago, we had a client that I worked with who we removed the addresses
off the property detail pages because people were breaking in, which you can still figure it out
if you're, like, really dedicated, right?
You can look on the map pin and kind of drive around until you find it.
But yeah, they'd look at it.
They'd be like, hey, it's empty this week.
They drive down, break in, stay their week, drive back home.
You know, and then the next guest, the property manager thinks it's clean, right?
And so the next guest comes down, like, what do you mean?
I mean, it was not booked last week, but it was clean.
You know, someone was there six days ago, whatever, and they're like, no, this place is a mess.
Like, I've seen that happen multiple times in the industry.
So, yeah, I mean, that's just straight up basically fraud and theft, you know, of services, if you
will, so that's pretty egregious.
But yeah, I've seen that one before, heard that story before.
All right, let's let's, yeah, let's turn the page a little bit to these OTAs,
which are supposed to protect us from this kind of stuff, but we'll see.
I do think the OTAs and any booking platform in general just has a responsibility, right?
because the OTA, like them or dislike them, and obviously, you know, we know where we stand here,
which is that they're kind of necessary, obviously.
And I think you should build your business around the OTAs as part of your business, but
not the one in the driver's of their business, which is sort of our take that we've had for a long time.
But there's a lot of things they can do to build trust.
You know, I think in the past, when we see an Airbnb comply with the local governments
of that we're going to put a field here for the permit number and the people are going to have
to put in their permit number in order to list, that's a way to, like, force that mechanism
and say, if you want to comply, you've got to put your permit number in here,
in order to less than Airbnb.
I think Airbnb deserves some kudos there, right?
And that sort of thing.
If they make that easy and fair and it works the right way,
you can cross-check that data or validate it,
that's reasonable in my mind.
If you're going to have some regulations around permitting
or safety or something like that,
and the process is straightforward to get quote-unquote certified or legal,
and that can be something that Airbnb assists with
by having a little text field or something for the permit number,
hit more power to them.
I think that's perfectly fair.
Obviously, they all have their own platform's rules.
You know, and when it cuts one way,
it's a little bit of frustrating.
It seems to mostly cut on the Airbnb side, for example, almost always against the host, against the property manager.
So that's, I would say the downside there.
I will say this, though, you know, as like a general capitalist or, you know, free market libertarian, if you will, if you go on and you sign up for these rules and you don't read the Airbnb rules and then you're upset about the rules.
I would say that's the arena that you're entering.
You're walking into the Airbnb world.
That is their choice.
You may not like it and feel free to express your displeasure, as it were.
Again, free country, you can say whatever you want.
But also you can't say, it's so outrageous.
It's so egregious that Airbnb would do this.
And it's like, you agree to that when you put all your listings on there.
So yeah, but they have every, I think, reason in their mind when they're doing these
platform rules, they're not trying to score for the host.
They're not like excited about storing over a host or property manager.
They need the host or the property manager for the inventory for their business to work.
But at the same token, they're always going to side with the guest in almost every situation.
And you just got to know that.
So, you know, if listings, you know, I'll give Airbnb credit too.
It would be very easy for them to leave a lot of lower performing listings on their platform
and inflate their revenue and inflate their listing count, you know, and say,
hey, we've got 8 million listings, we've got 9 million listings, but they don't do that.
Airbnb, in particular, we'll remove listings if they get bad ratings and reviews enough of them.
They'll take them off the platform, and they don't want those people to come in and have a really bad experience in a short-term rental in an Airbnb.
So, you know, obviously Airbnb is going to maximize their revenue, and they believe that the long-term revenue is maximized by enforcing standards on their platform and making sure that people are getting a good product or trying to do their best to make sure they get a good product when they're there.
I will, I have to slide this in, though.
Years ago, Airbnb said we're going to verify every listing on our platform, and that turned out to be
So I guess take that for what it's worth. Here we are in 2025. And they have not really
made any effort to do so. I think for a while there, I don't know if you saw as Paul,
there was like self-verification, which was like you just tapping like, yeah, I'm legit. It's just
always cracked me up. You know, it's like, it'll be like a cop pulling you over after you pulled
in your house. And we're like, did you speed when you drove home? You're like, no.
And they're like, okay, sounds good. I just let you go. That's got how I think about self,
enforcement, self-verification, which is just hilarious. But yeah, no, they've got their rules.
I think that for the most part, Airbnb is trying to set up rules over the long term for the
health of their business. And in theory, the health of their business is the health of your
business. We're kind of, if you're listening to Airbnb, you're kind of in the same boat together.
Now, again, they're the captain. You're not. But, you know, in theory, they want the same thing,
which is more people using their platform, more people spending money in short-term rentals,
and then you obviously get, you know, your portion of them. I'll give them some credit to the fees.
No one likes the fees. And yet, you know, the last few years of conversations have been dominated
by a lot of property managers charging more and more and more of that guest wallet share,
if you will, trying to get more of the more of the kind of revenue to their side of the ledger.
I think their change of like, hey, just show the price all in, cleaning fees, services fees, everything.
Here's exactly what you see.
I think that's probably a good trust building move on Verbo's part, on Airbnb's part.
Was it forced a little bit by legislation and government?
Maybe, from what I understand, particularly in California, there was a law about that.
But no, I think that's fair.
You know, so as far as what value the homeowner sees, when there's a lot of fees that a property
manager might use, like a big national manager might try to take 50% of the booking on average,
according to their public docs when they went public few years ago.
That's interesting, obviously.
But I think that when it comes down to it, you're paying what you're paying.
So if you're a guest, do you really care 50% of it goes to the property manager and 50%
to the host who owns that property?
Not really.
If you're getting good value for your money and you're happy with the stay and the
property is what you expect, let them deal with that on their side of things.
But as a guest, I think that's fair to not get the bait and switch tactics.
So get platforms to the credit to the platforms for kind of being more transparent on pricing
there.
And then, you know, this is a tricky one.
But when their support works well, I think that they've been.
do build trust. If you ever have a situation, you call Airbnb, and certainly many of these
interactions go very positively. We hear about the bad ones, and yes, we've heard a lot of bad ones,
but I'm sure there's lots of experiences of people having an issue. They call up Airbnb, they call
a burbo. They have a good experience. And then they feel like they trust that platform. That's why a lot
of people do trust these platforms, because they think, hey, if something goes wrong, I've got this middleman,
if you will, that will protect me in the event of a bad host or bad property nature.
Again, I know. We're trying to be somewhat positive here. We can point in some examples of, yeah, yeah,
No, no, no, no, that's, that's, that, that's, that, no, it's in, in theory, everything you said there does build trial.
I guess, let's, if, if we think about this probabilistically, maybe, and then you, you can feel free to rip them apart here after.
But if we think about this probabilistically, obviously Airbnb has grown tremendously, verbose grown tremendously, off the backs of people trusting them with their credit card, trusting them with their brand, trusting them to choose a rental, trusting the review system.
And are these things perfect, God, no, they're not perfect.
You and I know that better than almost anybody, right?
anyone who's been doing this for any length of time knows these platforms are not perfect but like
if you look at a thousand interactions a thousand bookings how many of them actually go as planned a lot
of them obviously the overwhelming majority of them people are having good experience they're getting
what they paid for or they wouldn't come back like let's be honest right they don't have to choose
to use these platforms and there are some people who will say I've tried a quote unquote Airbnb I didn't
like it and I went back to hotels so if that group gets large enough then we will cease to exist right
like our product will eventually die out in favor of the hotel that obviously hasn't happened
And so there's been a lot of growth there on that side.
Go ahead.
No, I will see.
The caveat of today, literally today's news or yesterday's news of the earnings call
when Chesky just said hotels are coming on the platform.
But I'd agree with.
And they've owned hotel tonight.
Sorry, they've owned hotel tonight for how many years now?
Seven years, six years?
It's been a while.
Way more than should not have been.
But they never talk about it.
It's kind of like this.
And at one point there was hotel inventory mixed in the Airbnb search results.
And they kind of went off that.
So, yeah, we circle back to that one.
If you want to hear a hotel, Airbnb,
breakdown. We can circle back on that one in the future. But yeah, I mean, let's be honest, right?
Back to my Airbnb, or my Airbnb Chesky will do what he wants post from a few weeks ago.
Of course they need to do that. Because if they have all this traffic and they're not converting
enough of it into, if they don't have enough inventory, why not chuck a few hotels at the bottom
and say, well, this doesn't work. Book this stuff. And they still make money off of it.
So if I was in their shoes, I probably would do the same thing if I'm trying to grow my company
and get more revenue. Well, this relationship right here, the OTAs and the booking platforms,
it's two different relationships that are going to build truck. Like the actions they're going to
build trust for the traveler may not build the same trust for the property manager for the host.
That's just, I mean, obviously, yes, we're trying to serve two different, two different businesses
will be the consumer side, which is running the business, let's call a spade and the inventory
side, which again, runs the business in its own way, but can you figure out ways now, again,
with hotels and anything else? We'll see. But actions to break that trust is, you know,
let's talk about illegal rentals.
That is something that has happened and will continue to happen on that platform.
Even if they eventually do catch people.
And once people are not following the rules, they get knocked off or they get, you know,
their strike rules or whatever that is, that's great.
But it happens for a while.
So that's, and there's ghost listings out there.
There's a whole bunch of things that happens.
So that's on the traveler side, certainly.
I mean, when we look at just the overall holistic nature of the industry, regulation.
I mean, there is a gigantic hotel resort hospitality lobby.
Case rentals don't really have that.
And I just think that that's something that Airbnb could certainly shoulder that role.
And I think they do kind of.
I think there are steps that they're taking.
But again, when you're operating nationally, multinationally, I think they're probably in a position of,
we got to pick our battles.
We got to figure out where we're going to go,
where we're going to do this.
But again, being around, being there to uplift the rising tide rises all ships,
being there at more of a national level and trying to work.
Being there at a state level, do you need to be at the municipal level?
No, that's probably where each individual host and each individual property manager
like you talked about above should be participating and can build that trust.
But yeah, when you're fighting regulation, when you're trying to make sure,
that your bottom line is the need that's met over others and using regulation to help that,
yeah, that's not what we're here to do.
And hidden fees.
Now, again, that's something that, thank you, ticket master, thank you all the legislation that
went into place there because now we don't have as many hidden fees.
And while it may not be fun to itemize those and show where that money is going, ultimately,
yeah, that consumer is not that concerned about that.
the homeowner, the property manager, they'll work the system the way they need to make everything
work there. So I do. I think that the consistent siding and those error quotes are heavy
with travelers, what would you expect them to do? I mean, that's the type of thing is that
and I think even thinking about it from where that complaint is going to go. And upset travelers
is going to go to Reddit. They're going to go to TikTok. They're going to go to Instagram, Facebook,
Reels, they're going to go to YouTube. They're going to go to some big places. Most likely, a property
manager that gets screwed over by Airbnb is going to go to LinkedIn. That's great, because we know.
But that is a tiny, tiny audience and very little manipulation control. There's not a lot of PR control
you have to do there. So yeah, nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to be in a position to do that.
But let's think about where they can absorb a little more paint and a little more, you know, again, if I'm Airbnb, do I think I can replace X number of units?
Yeah, I do.
So that's, I mean, you have to be of that mindset if you've grown to the size that they have.
And again, we'll talk about that inventory.
I guarantee you in a future episode and more we're going to go with hotels and stuff like that.
But that's something that I think the drive.
drumbeat for and against the OTAs swings by the week, by the month, because again,
it's maybe it's a policy change, maybe it's this, maybe it's that.
But I think most of the consistent drumbeat is don't let yourself be held captive.
Like build the trust work with all these, work with all these things.
Follow the platform rules, you know, make sure your pricing's in line as a property manager.
But then don't rely on that to run your business.
business because it's not your business. It is, it is Airbnb's business at that point. And we've
talked about that. You're not owning your business. You're not owning your brain. You're not
following all the top items to build trust. I'm not saying you're breaking trust necessarily,
but in over leveraging Airbnb, you've broken the trust of yourself, of your business. It is.
It's just that you don't have that business like the stand-off. Yeah. You know, I think anyone
and listening knows the battle that they fight with the OTAs.
And I think you nailed it a second ago when you said, what should the OTA do?
The OTA kind of has to pick a side in most situations.
And Airbnb is determined right now that that's the side to pick on.
Now, I wonder what would happen in the future.
If there was a very well-funded, very large growing competitor to Airbnb,
and then all of a sudden they were losing inventory left and right.
You know, how quickly would those tides change in the fact of, you know, how it went through.
There's this clip that goes around, I feel like every few months or whatever I see it on Twitter.
And it's Bezos.
and he's doing an interview in like 2001 or 2002 or something like that.
And they're asking him, like, you're not an internet company.
Like you're building warehouse space.
You're shipping books out.
You know, this is, of course, like before Amazon was doing a lot of other products,
is my understanding.
And he's like, yeah, because I care about the customer.
He's like, when I build more, you know, warehouses to house books and I can ship the book
to the customer quicker and they order and they get it off Amazon after two days instead
of a week because it's coming from Seattle and they live in Florida, I'm going to
make that customer happier.
So I'm going to make decisions based on the customer.
And that was, again, Bezos 25 years ago.
Here we are 25 years later.
and there you go.
Like, they make decisions.
That's their North Star.
So if you're a seller on Amazon,
I suppose it's very similar
to how the property manager gets treated
on, you know, Airbnb they feel like at times.
The seller probably gets treated a little bit roughshod, right?
Like, hey, if you don't give me the product, someone else will
because I have customers that want to come to Amazon and buy the product, right?
So I think that if we have that,
if I get rid of you, it's a bummer,
but basically I'll take someone else and replace them with you
and someone else will sell, you know, books or any other million things
that Amazon sells nowadays.
So I think that probably is the Airbnb mindset is like,
if we have happy guests that like using Airbnb,
they consistently return to Airbnb to make reservations,
then the inventory will sort itself out
because the marketplace dynamics are such
where that is the battle.
And I will say that's not to slam on people
that have gone down this path before.
But I would say it's probably every few months,
and it seems like it's not as much now as it has been in the past.
I'll get a lead or I'll get a contact form
or I'll get a message from someone that goes,
you know, the fees are the problem.
I'm going to build this platform and I'm going to build this book direct,
you know, movement.
And I'm going to, you know, take all the fees out of the equation.
It's outrageous, it's gotten too aggressive, and I'm going to, you know, take out Airbnb with this messaging of lower cost, basically, is kind of their messaging.
And I'm just like, cool, what's the plan for traffic?
Because if you don't have the traffic, I don't care, and there's been companies that have gone very far in this way.
I don't think we're saying a negative thing.
Let me say Hopper at one point was being very aggressive on acquiring inventory, and they had a strategy on getting traffic.
They were kind of leading into like this, like, social video, you know, TikTok, GenG style like awareness.
They're like, hey, we're going where Expedia, Burbo, Airbnb aren't.
focusing on. They had a whole kind of plan put together how it would look. And they were signing
inventory at like a high clip at high rate, but the traffic wasn't there. At least the booking
audience traffic wasn't there. And now it's for my understanding. I don't see any like no
clients of mine or like, to my knowledge, listing on Hopper or getting any meaningful bookings
from Hopper. So if you get one side of the dynamic at play on the marketplace where you have
all the homes, let's say I snapped my finger and there was, you know, some brand new travel
vacation rentals.com site that Paul and I owned and every single vacation rental that was on
Airbnb was on that site tomorrow. It almost wouldn't, I wouldn't say it wouldn't matter. We'd be
we'd accomplish something amazing, but then we have to get all the traffic and all the
awareness and build up all the trust, back to the topic of today's episode to get someone
a book. If we don't have that, guess what? It doesn't matter, you know, if you don't get
those things. So I kind of understand the position, even if when we're on this side of the coin,
we hate it, I can get why people get to that level with Airbnb, because they feel like if
I have to break trust, I'd rather deal with the ire of the property manager who still needs
me versus the guest who then goes, tells 10 people, Airbnb sucks, and then that person
tells 10 more people, and then they have this, you know, negative brand sentiment that they can't
recover from. Yeah, we have. We've seen
plenty of people in the space try
to compete. I would love, I mean, I would
love to see something
that matches, but
you hit the nail on the head there is that
I remember trying to
get more inventory because
we had traffic and resources
and a lot. It's, that's
everybody's matching point.
I have a directory. Like, that's what
Airbnb has done, you know, I
think that's where that search trends
report that I like to dust off every once in a while,
where we do vacation rental, Airbnb, and Burgo, and just kind of show the contrasting lines of
how people search. And you look at 2016, 2017, those lines just converge, and Airbnb did it.
And again, when we're looking now eight years later, well, of course they're successful because
this isn't just the flash in the pan at this point. They grew and they grew and they grew and they
became what we are as an industry.
They overtook vacation rentals.
It is.
People don't search that way.
People do search for vacation rentals.
Look at all of our search.
Shermer's reports that's happening.
But Airbnb is just so consistent.
It has...
I saw a review come in for a client the other day, and it was a direct booking that
was made on their website.
And the review came in and said, we love this Airbnb.
We had a great time.
Five stars.
We'll return again.
And I was like, dude, you went to this property manager.
website you know but yeah to your point it's it's hard to push against that we try you know and to your
point there's absolutely a lot of traffic out there for it but yeah it's it's a challenge that's for sure
it's challenge all right so let's let's look the page a little bit here so vacational management
companies obviously very similar you know to kind of some of the host things that we talked about
before being a community partner having standards for your properties hey what do I allow
what do I not allow in my actual program itself I think that comes back to brand which I'll touch
on in second you know community investment local compliance all those things kind of check those boxes
so we touched about that earlier.
I would say the one, I'd say difference that I would, you know, point out,
the reason that someone would choose a property manager over a host,
let's assume reviews are somewhat comparable,
properties are somewhat comparable,
is I think that your expectation with a property manager
is that you've got a more full suite of services
or you've got a little bit better coverage if something goes wrong.
So, you know, one thing I don't like to see is these property management companies
are like bare bones or like super multi-market and they're like,
yeah, we have 100 listings and we got 20 here and seven here and four here and whatever
because it's almost like they're operating like a big company.
but they have to act like a small company, you know,
with regards to, like, support and logistics and stuff like that,
but when you see someone, a property management company that's a mile deep
in their destination and they have a home every few blocks
and they have, you know, on-site everything,
or they can take care of things, they can roll a truck out and fix issues right away.
When you see those, like, very operationally solid companies,
I think that's where it gives you confidence to be like,
oh, if I book here, they're going to take care of me.
I guess, like, that's the difference I see between a well-run vacation rental
management company and a well-run host is that a well-run host is like,
let me try to help you, whereas a management company is,
Like, we will take care of you.
It's like this collective versus the singular thing of like, I trust the brand.
I trust the logo.
I trust the shield.
I've had a good experience before.
Something bad happened and they sent a truck out and they fixed this issue right away.
So, you know, if there's something different, I would argue, maybe that's one thing that I would, you know, kind of point out there.
Excuse me.
But everything else we said earlier, I think still applies.
So I don't if there's anything that would be beyond that, you know, that you would say there.
Maybe the only other piece that I would say that's a trust building exercise is that it's easier to verify a brand maybe in a way.
So if it's, you know, John and Mary, and they're the Airbnb host, all you really have to do is rely on Airbnb reviews, which you don't know what you're going to get.
When it's a company, and we see this a lot with our clients, people go out and search them on Google.
They'll look them up on different platforms like Yelp.
They may go on their Facebook page, look at their reviews.
They're like, hey, you're a company.
I'm going to go fact check some of the stuff and see what I find.
And when they find good stuff, they find good reviews, happy guest comments.
They find, you know, one thing I love to see always, by the way, retargeting ads, a bunch of comments at the bottom.
Oh, I just stayed here.
I loved it.
This property is amazing.
This stuff's amazing.
Bam, bam, bam, bam,
love that social proof.
They find what they're looking for.
I think it increases their conversion rate.
It increases their direct traffic.
They get more direct bookings because of it.
When they start to go poke around and they start to see some three stars,
some two stars,
some one star reviews pop in,
that's when obviously we have issues,
you know, as far as trust building there.
So I'll leave that, you know, to you if you want to break apart
anything there on the break trust side.
But those are kind of some things that I would say
that are slightly different versus just the idea of like trusting a host
or trusting a smaller, you know,
property manager that only has a few listings.
No, I think, I mean, you think you hit the nail on those
even entering into the breaking, those things that break the trust.
I mean, it's once the small little items start to pop up.
I mean, I think one of the things that when we look at those bigger,
those multi-city, the big sprawling national companies,
sprawling is probably doing quite a bit of work there,
but that's usually prioritization of profit over people.
And understanding that go downstream with that,
yeah, you can make a profit.
But going downstream, talk about those five-star reviews become four-star reviews, become three-star reviews because you don't have the ability to operate as a true management company owning a market in a community.
There's a difference.
I mean, there's just no doubt.
Even the best multi-city company, they can't service the same way.
They can't operate the same way.
You can't.
I mean, there's simple math that, that is.
isn't going to work for you.
So I think that that's something where, again, once you start prioritizing profit over
people, whether that's your people who are working for you or the travelers, because ultimately
they're the ones who are going to suffer as a result of you putting their profit above and
whether that's safety compliance, whether those, I mean, there's some real life things that
could happen there.
That's certainly going to break trust of anybody you're working with the vendors even.
There's a whole bunch of stuff that we're talking about.
But that's where everything is so interconnected on where you're breaking that trust.
I think there's more than just one layer to all of these.
Managing illegal properties, obviously, I've said it three times.
But again, it's no less illegal to manage illegal property.
So don't do it.
If you can't manage in a market, don't be in that market.
Don't try to get around the rules.
Don't try to, oh, we did it here, we did this.
There was a loophole.
just by saying the word loophole, I'm sorry, you're breaking my trust.
Even if you found something that is legal for you to be able to do something,
that's not a way you're building that trust in.
So not great there.
Thinking about the community as a greater whole, poor guest screening.
You know, if you're kind of taking that out of the consideration,
you're not going to screen everybody.
And I know everybody's got different rules and different stipulations.
But having some type of check, if you don't have that check in place,
again you get the community not being very happy with you yourself your HOA your
on-site management company that's that's that's that's doing it and you're just kind
of dropping in and being casual about it it's it's it's not going to work you're
going to be able to tell a difference so I do I it's a lot of this is wash
friends repeat but these are the things that will break trust in again any
relationship but certainly in any interaction
And whether it's with the management company, whether it's with the traveler, the own homeowner, you know, even as we get down into the government bodies.
Yeah, yeah, right on.
So I think, you know, we can probably jet through these next to a little bit quicker because we kind of are on the same page at this point.
So, yeah, management company.
So, yeah, we have government kind of left here.
And then we've got local communities and residents.
So, you know, interesting, you know, we'll end on an interesting note there.
But I know we're probably coming against it a little bit timewise here.
I think the number one trust-breaking activity that I see at the local government level
is listening far too loudly to a handful of voices that are very loud
and not considering a 360-degree review.
So it's neighbor ABC is mad because of ABC situation.
How dare there be a short-term rental here?
This was never the case before.
It's ruining my experience to be here.
There's all these problems, et cetera.
Instead of, okay, let's fix the problems.
You know, it's let's ban all short-term rentals.
And I think as humans, we generally speaking are pretty selfish.
we look at it from our perspective and we have a hard time in many situations putting ourselves
in someone else's shoes i'm i'm certainly empathetic to that person if i was next to a party house
i'd be pretty angry too you know loud music at 2 a m in the morning my kids are trying to go to
sleep and i can't go to sleep i'm going to be pretty upset at that property owner and that property
host who's making money at thousand miles away and they're sitting here ruining my day-to-day life
i can totally understand them but i think that if you don't actually talk through the whole
situation you know you're letting one little situation paint your whole perspective of how all short-form rentals are
that's a problem. Now, see all of our other commentary about you want to host good guests,
you want to be a good guest, et cetera. And when that's the case, I feel like none of these
policy issues will pop up in the same way with the one caveat perhaps of
housing affordability and some of those things. But we can meet that up a thousand different
ways. The data is very obvious that in most markets, it's you're not actually losing any
meaningful housing stock. Certainly you're not losing much affordable housing stock with short-term
rentals. That's very obvious. And if you are, it's probably somewhat minimal. And it might
be, it might increase supply in most markets anywhere from like 1 to 3%. And then you'll find
the odd market here and there. It's very isolated. Tell you right, being good example,
Aspen, Park City, these kind of places where there's nothing else around. And, you know,
the short-term rentals can be 20% of the housing stock and it can absolutely harm and impact affordability.
We'll dispute that. Maybe there's some government, you know, policy that needs to exist there.
My argument would be very simple. Let people build up. That is the most efficient way to offer more
housing in any situation on planet earth. The more up you can build, the more affordable
you can make housing is very simple. But that's too simple of a solution. People don't want to hear
that. So they got to have some kind of scapego. But yeah, if you're a government body and you say,
well, what if we allowed more ADUs? What if we allowed people to build a five unit building or
even a 10 unit building or maybe a 20 unit building? Holy crap, what a crazy thing. They don't
want to allow that. Then I guess my take on it would be, is it the government's responsibility
to make housing affordable. That's where I would draw the line and say, no, personally. I don't think
it's the government's responsibility. I think you can take it as an issue.
you and try to say, how can we figure out a way to get people the option to do so,
you know, to get the option to live in a certain area. But in my opinion, no one's guaranteed
to be able to live in a nice area. Just because you grow up there doesn't mean that you can
live there forever, especially if you don't own property. You notice the unfortunate reality
of how these things go. So again, maybe that's my own, now, that's my own political bias,
sleeping in there, you know, sleeping in there. But I think that's a, is the government's
responsibility to fix every problem or is it their responsibility to make sure that we have
a fair, equal shot at what it would be like to be there, regardless of if it's, you know, a
thousand dollars, you know, per square foot to build a house or whether it's $200 per square
foot to build a house. It is what it is. That's what happens. People want to be in certain
places. They demand a lot from them. And then they, they want to figure out to go from there.
So, yeah. I don't know if you have anything else on government without, you know, we're trying
to be, like, I'm not political, you know, on the show, but I'm trying to have to say,
you know, I kind of feel about that. Where it's like, when you buy property, what are you
actually getting? You know, it's like, my belief would be like you have the right to act in a way
that you feel like is the best accordance with your best interest, as long as it doesn't
I'm at the expense of other people.
Like, I think pollution is an amazing, you know, sort of like a property rights flag
because no one would say, hey, I bought a house.
I bought the house next to Paul and now I'm burning rubber tires in my backyard.
It's my property.
I can do what I want, but it's not because the rubber tires are leaking, you know,
chemicals into Paul's, you know, neighbor's yard and there's, you know, his kids are
inhaling toxic chemicals and we all agree that's not a good thing.
So there's, like, good examples, I think of ways that we can say, you can't just do
whatever you want in your land where it doesn't impact other people.
But you've also got to say, like, it's my land.
under these rules, I should be able to do what I want with it.
And I think that's where the government has to find that very fine point to try to make
everybody, if everybody's a little bit upset, you're probably doing things about right.
When one group's really happy and one group's really pissed off, you probably did something
wrong.
That kind of might take on it.
I mean, it is.
I think everything with government comes down to specificity.
I think that the one that the one item under the actions at break trust, punitive and
unclear regulations.
Now, I think that's something that has been very, I think that is improved over time.
Again, because we've worked collaboratively as a greater vacation rental industry to push for clear regulation.
Regulation that actually is not overly complex, not one size fits all, but understanding that every market is different and trying to help write regulation or help correct regulation wherever we are at in different areas, that's going to actually make it be fair.
Again, if everybody's a little angry, you hit that that is it.
If everybody's a little angry, then we're all happy about life.
That's something, I mean, I think about all the basketball games you've watched.
If all the fans are really mad at the refs or all the fans are met at the national commentator, they're doing it right.
I hope that this is something where at every city level, you don't have people who are in a position to wipe out an entire industry because of one or two voices.
Again, once again, they're right exactly what you said.
a lot of these markets are favorable to live in because of the industry being a part of it.
So just take that into consideration, I guess, that we're all citizens and that we should all
have some type of representation.
I think that was part of some big document a couple hundred years ago or something.
So we'll figure it out.
I agree more.
Well, that probably brings us close to it.
I think the last thing we had here on our list was the local communities or residents.
So, you know, right.
I think it's when you're being honest about what's going on.
I think that's a perfectly healthy thing, the way to build trust.
Hey, you may not be aware of this, Mr. Property Manager, because even if you're a mile away,
you're a mile away.
But when you have these guests coming in, they're terrible and here's what they're doing.
And if you don't know about that and you're not being honest about that, how can someone
make it better?
So I can totally understand that side of it.
I think when you do complaints through the right channels, you know, through the right
platforms, it makes a lot of sense to me.
I think if you just, you know, go on Google and leave a negative review in a property
manager, you know, because they had a bad guess.
That's not really fair.
So I think you do have a responsibility, if you will, to kind of
put things through the right place where they can, you know, they can be acknowledged in the right
way and they can, you know, take action there. Yeah. And I think ultimately, um, you know, if you
acknowledge that people do have these rights to rent their property. And if they're following all
the rules and regulations, I think you should understand that there's benefit to your community.
The fact that all these people have second houses, you know, here, they pay, so if you have
a second house here in South Carolina in my area in South Carolina, you're paying like triple
the property tax that I'm paying. So like, because you're paying triple the property tax,
I'm paying one third of the property tax, right? That could be paying otherwise. So I love these
vacation rentals, right? They lower my tax bill probably a lot.
versus people who live here versus people who have vacation here.
So anyways, we could do a whole list of things there.
But those are just some things that come to mind, right?
I think some people will pick out some, you know, a lot of trust-breaking activities that
are just like, I'm a little bit agreed.
Therefore, I'm going to try to burn this whole thing down that is vacation rentals
in my destination.
I think that's obviously the wrong thing to do if you're a local, you know, property
manager, as it were, or guest as it were.
Again, I think that that's the, are there some bad operators out there.
Yes, there are.
Again, I wish it weren't the case, but there are.
But, again, blanketing your opposition because of those one or two bad apples, one or two bad eggs, that's just, I mean, it does.
It sets us up for a relationship that does get fiery and does get hostile and does cause yelling and screaming matches at city town halls and things like that.
You know, filing frivolous complaints.
Don't file a noise complaint when a noise complaint doesn't happen.
If it does happen, it will probably happen again.
I'm sure that's one of those things of
I get that maybe you don't want to be the neighbor to it
but if it's like don't make up things just to
just to make it sound worse than it is because it
again I think most relationships in these neighborhoods are
positive or we would hear more about them
that's that's the reality of it is that
when when bad things happen they make the headlines
they make the local newspapers and then they make the regional
newspapers and then every once in a while they make it up to
USA Today or something fun like that.
So, you know, as a community member, as a resident, put up with as much as you can.
But when it gets to be bad, then like you said, go through the proper channels there.
Again, if you're not engaging, I mean, don't complain about it.
There are things that are happening.
There's legislation that's happening.
There's regulation that's happening here.
So if you want to be a part of that discussion, be specific again.
Make sure that you're actually being a part of the discussion.
Don't just say, I hate STRs, I hate vacation rentals, I hate them, Airbnbs, and the verbos and everything like that.
And I started, I didn't mean to go southern on it, but that's where we got a lot of these markets.
So we're going to go there as well.
But, yeah, again, I think the communities, the local governments, the residents all kind of have a responsibility to get along as best they can.
And maybe not, it's not going to be a perfect world for everybody, but it's going to be a world that works together.
Yeah, yeah, right on.
That's a good place to end it.
Boy, that's a long one.
You know, there's a lot in there to, if you made it all the way to the end.
We did.
We did.
We made it too long.
Well, if you made it all the way to the end,
probably there should be an Easter egg or a surprise here at the end.
I'm not sure what it is.
I don't know.
Email me.
If you made it all over the end,
email me,
email me marshmallow and then say,
I made it to the end in the body,
and maybe I can get you dinner or something because I was long.
So it should be fun.
VAL for one person.
I don't want like everybody going to the end.
You're the first person to make all over the end.
Now it's all good.
one thing before you get out of here dear one listener who made it all by the end need a podcast review go to your podcast app of choice click five stars leave us a review iTunes listeners we get the most downloads there Spotify listeners we get the second most downloads there so we appreciate a review because then we can come up with more new episodes and we'll make sure we keep on a little bit tighter time horizon next time as it were thank you for listening you're the best you're an awesome beautiful person and we'll catch you in the next one thanks so much