Heads In Beds Show - The Art Of The Offer: Making Homeowner Lead Gen More Effective For Vacation Rental Brands

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

In this episode Conrad and Paul break down the key to making a great offer to drive more lead gen for vacation rental homeowners.Enjoy!⭐️ Links & Show NotesPaul Manzey Conrad O'ConnellConrad's Book: Mastering Vacation Rental Marketing🔗 Connect With BuildUp BookingsWebsiteFacebook PageInstagramTwitter🚀 About BuildUp BookingsBuildUp Bookings is a team of creative, problem solvers made to drive you more traffic, direct bookings and results for your accommodations brand. Reach out to us for help on search, social and email marketing for your vacation rental brand.

Welcome to the Heads and Beds show where we teach you how to get more properties, earn more revenue per property, and increase your occupancy. I'm your co-host Conrad. And I'm your co-host Paul. All right, Paul, how's it going today? Just another fabulous day here. You know, we are, as we're recording this, it's championship week in NCAA basketball, so a lot of things to watch if you're interested in that arena.

I love seeing the Cinderella stories, those mid-majors, the Stetsons, the 4-0s of the world that maybe don't get the big play throughout the year, but it is. It's kind of a fun time. It's going to be time to fill out a bracket soon. That's that might be the best. Now I get to worry about that on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, and just decide whether, you know, it's,

I just want to beat my kid this year. That's all. I, I, I, I, that's it. They don't know how old your son is. Well, my oldest is going, be... He will still be five. I wish I could say he is six. Maybe that would be better. No.

But they'll both fill one out. And the four-year-old and the five-year-old have... Last year, AJ, my five-year-old, beat me. Previous year, at that point, two-year-old. So, you know, he's just picking the logos. But, yeah, he beat me too. So, I just want to beat him both this year. I don't, I used to notice.

The bar is on the floor, my friend. That is not very good. I don't, I'm not really into college basketball. All right, give your prediction right now. So we're recording this March 14th. We'll give away the secret if you're listening to this. It's April, but we're recording this March 14th. So what is your prediction?

You can look really smart right now. Oh yeah, I'm going to look real smart, real foolish. I think Houston is going to be in the final. And I think one of those ACC teams, so a Duke or UNC is going to make it. So Big 12, we'll say generally conferences, Big 12 and ACC will be representing teams in the championship. And when that's the Big 10 and the Big East or whatever, y'all can, you know, don't take it to Vegas on me. I'll say it that way.

Yeah, the outcome will already be settled at this point. Actually, so as we were recording this again, this last week is NFL for Agency. I was going to ask about your boy Kirk Cousins heading down to Hotlanta, I think is what the kids call it. And, you know, the framing on it, I heard some interesting framing where like they're now out of Kirk Cousins' jail. Like he puts you in this financial bind that now you're just like the only small win of that if there is one i know it's not good to lose a good quarterback um we lost a bad quarterback so it's like whatever um no big deal is yeah you just shrug your

shoulders and at least you're not like having to pay mediocre 50 million dollars a year so i guess that's you know a fun little fact i will say 100 100 that man has has done very well for himself i think he guaranteed money how about this have you seen have you seen how much he's made compared to lebron james on on the like field or on the court have you seen those persons when this contract is over i think they're projecting lebron's going to keep playing i think this is the case he's made one million dollars less than lebron james on the court versus on the field so that's how much money he's made in his career. And the basketball players get paid well. It's not like...

They do know that. So Kirk Cousins will likely end his career on the field having made pretty much just as much as LeBron James. And there might have been years in there where he lived in lower tax states because now LeBron's in California. So I bet his actual net take-home pay will be higher than LeBron James. So there you go. He's done well for himself.

It is. Good for him. I will take, now I will take, I would take your free agent quarterback pickup of Jacoby Brissett over hours of Sam Darnold, but that's a whole other discussion. He was out there. Oh, goodness. I'm saying, I would have taken, no, I know, we got it. We were going

discount shopping on that one. We were too, and you still got a discount. We'll see. They would never do it. They would never do it. They would never do it. This could make an interesting conversation if I end up being right about this, though. So again, we're saying this on March 14th.

What if Justin Fields wiggled his way over to Minnesota? You'd have to do a turnaround there as far as whatever your opinion is of Justin Fields. But that actually does make a little bit more sense as far as talent, opportunity. It's a good roster. Like he's throwing to good players. I mean, I'm not like a Justin Fields stan or fan or anything like that. But I think like that would be a better outcome for Justin.

He would get a chance to play. And like Chicago doesn't want him. So like, why not? No. That does make some sense. All right, we'll see. I could be Nostradamus if you see that trade alert, you know, and then you're looking back on this.

Or he's cut and, you know, this is all a moot point. But anyway, speaking of fun points and speaking of things that happen, homeowner marketing happens. So Paul, we were deciding we have a shorter one today. We spent four minutes on sports when we have very little time, which is probably not ideal, but all good. So you came up with this idea of the offer and the offer is a very specific thing. So we can kind of do it justice,

I think, even in a relatively short period of time, because we're not talking necessarily about the media or the creative. Maybe you could articulate that direct mail versus cold email versus there's all these different channels. But whatever you're a vacation manager out there, you are at various points making an offer to a homeowner, you're trying to entice them. And a lot of these offers aren't very good. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what the typical offer is and what you've seen on the Vittoria side of things of what tests might look like to make the offer more appealing for the homeowner. Well, I think everybody's offer is, well, we're going to make more money for you. Well, sure. That's, that's

the goal. That's the dream. You don't control that. You can't do anything to really, you know, you know, you could quantify it, but there's not really anything you can't do anything to really, you know, you know, you could quantify it, but there's not really anything you can concrete saying concrete that, that this is, this is what we're going to be able to do. So I do, I think, you know, it's something that there's a lot of different things that you can offer to people. It is from free digital locks to that. I think everybody thinks, Oh, a free income projection. That's great. You can project how much they're going to make, and we're going to make more for you. But what can you tangibly give someone? And I know at previous times we've talked about, well, let's put together an onboarding package. Let's do some of these things like this. Things that you already do for the homeowner themselves.

That is, and that can be part of your compelling offer. Sometimes it's just about telling people what you do and, and making sure that they understand this is what we do just to ensure that you're going to be successful in, you know, making more money, having a better home care for, for your home. Yeah. You know, when we look at some of those items that we, we often suggest that people do, free photography, that's an easy one. That's a light one where we'll come in, we'll take better pictures of your home so that when we put it out on those booking sites, it's going to look awesome.

It's going to be Instagram worthy. It's going to be one of those top performing properties that Airbnb wants to show more frequently or whatever you want to do there. B&B wants to show more frequently or whatever you want to do there. It is, you know, you can take that a little further, maybe do free 3D tours or free drone photography. It is anything you can do to paint the home in a better light. I think that's always something that you want to consider. And it is, it ultimately will help.

And you've seen it on the guest side, certainly, that it's going to help the property perform. And you've seen it on the guest side, certainly, that it's going to help the property perform. It is interior design consults, home improvement credits. These are some things that I think if you wrap a lot of these things together in that onboarding package and say, you know, you put that dollar value on it. This is a $2,500 value that we're just giving it to you for free. Now, we're giving it to you for free. But at the same time, it's that $2,500 investment for that property manager upfront is worth way more in the longterm of that gross booking revenue that you can hope to yield from that property and,

and doing stuff like that. So, so it is, I think you can take it in a lot of different directions. And it is, and, and being able to test those things. And we can talk about that in a little bit here, but you do, you want, you want to try different things out. You don't just want to keep it, you know, I'm going to do free digital locks for the next 12 months. Okay. That's all right. But what if that doesn't move the needle? I'm going to do the free income projection. Well, what if that doesn't move the needle? Well, let's take a look at some ways that we can, we can test some of those offers out. And I think that's even a little more universal with any offers that we're running, whether it's on the owner side or the guest side. I think you

do want to test different messaging, test different deliverable, test the different value, percentage versus dollar amount off, that type of thing. I think that's always beneficial to see what is that end user really seeing as the value here. So that's a lot of talking. What do you think about that? How does that all either... I mean, I know you've done some of it on the owner side as well. How does that work there? How does it carry over to the guest side for you? Yeah. I think that on the guest side, it's like the value proposition is always the same, especially now with dynamic pricing. It's like, we're going to try to charge you the highest possible rate, if we're being honest, right. That we can get for this listing during

this day, during this timeframe. And you're going to try to pay as little as possible and still get a good property for the most part, unless you just have an asset that's, you know, an unreasonable value for money, whether the experience or whatever. So on the guest side, I feel like the things to play with could be more of, we have clients that have done this before, like the whole free beach gear, late checkout, those types of things that are more like little bonuses or benefits. But I think to your point, the homeowner piece is where you have to get a lot more creative because to be honest, you have to do a significant amount of marketing for homeowner and your response rates are very low. I can't run ads on the guest side where we get one of a thousand people to click on a campaign and go to our page and

even potentially fill out a form. But in owner direct mail, not only are those numbers pretty common, they actually still work fine from a unit economics perspective, right? If you're sending out 5,000 postcards and you've got five leads back from that consistently and you did it every time you sent it, then Tori would be doing very well for you, probably speaking, you know, probably simply speaking, because you know so many of those postcards are just thrown out. So I think the benefit on the homeowner side

to testing different offers is, to be honest, when you haven't done a lot of volume of marketing, you just don't know what people are actually going to respond to or not. And if across those 5,000 people that you're marketing out to, if it's a postcard send that you're doing,

you don't know who picks that up in a given day, what they're actually, you know, motivated by or what they by or what they will do well by. But I share your kind of concern with the idea that a revenue offer is not necessarily the most appealing thing. You know, a free revenue projection, that's like going to a restaurant and they're saying like, we're going to cook the food. Like I would hope that you'd give me a revenue projection before I started managing your listing. It's kind of like a reasonable, you know, base level assumption. So I think the problem with a lot of homeowner marketing is it just kind of washes over people, is that especially because they get a high volume of it, typically, you know, I'm getting one from

a cost, I'm getting one from 12 other local companies. Right. And I get it like, you know, that's the business that, you know, we're in where we have to stand out from the crowd, so to speak. And it does make it hard when your offer doesn't really look any different or feel any different than anybody else. And for whatever reason, in our industry, we just haven't evolved or done a lot of testing around the offer. And I think that that's something Venturi is working towards fixing and doing a good job of. But before we had started working together, you and I on these things in the past, I mean,

I would always just see the same thing. And it was almost just like a fact sheet. It was, you know, those cards were sent out and it would basically just be like, here's the name of the company. I've been in business this long, picture of our office, like here's our team, like we have X number of listings maybe or whatever. But there wasn't even like even a clear call to action. It was just like a phone number on the back or, you know, maybe a webpage URL in the back or something like that. Not even tracked or, you know, anything. And that was it. That's what people were running with. So you guys have like improved this significantly, but it's still up to the property manager to be clear, to articulate what

their value is. I think that's the missing piece, right? Like it's not Venturi's job, nor BuildUp Booking's job on the best side to build the value of your company for you of like what you guys do differently. That's your secret sauce. And then we should go shout to your target market, whether it's homeowners or guests, what your secret sauce actually is. So maybe you could go through that idea a little bit of like trying to amplify the message and not build the message for the client, because that's not really necessarily what we're always doing. Right. And I think that that's because everybody does have more or less the similar blueprint

of how they do it. It is difficult to differentiate yourself, but that's why you, that's why you have to do it. I mean, that, that it, because there is so much noise out there because it isn't just about, I mean, even if it were just your local competitors, that'd be great, but it is Vicasa. It is Evolve. And it's, and it's a lot of other people trying to come into the space as well, trying to do the exact same thing. So how do you cut through that clutter? I do think the nice thing about the digital side that I've been able to see, and you know me, I'm not a big Facebook person, but this is the one area where I've found it very helpful to be

able to use some more of that, I call it the multivariate testing, but we use those dynamic or the responsive ads and be able to test out some of those different asset types and to be able to test out some of those different offers and the actual ad content itself. And is it just straight one to one of, oh, yeah, well, Facebook's going to do this one more frequently because they're going to serve up this to this person and this like that. I think it gives us a pretty good understanding of what is the value in this market. And we see it. If we go to some of those more metro markets, we tend to see the headlines that talk more about their ROI being more valuable. You talk about some more of those niche markets. It is. It's about that home care. It's about how you can give them that owner that peace of mind and making people feel like, OK, I can put my million dollar home in your hands.

It's going to be taken care of. It's going to have all that. I don't have to work. It's the stress free property management. So I do. I think that when you're talking about these offers, you do you kind of have to blend that quantitative with the qualitative. Yeah. I want to see how much you can make, but I also want to know what you're going to do to protect my asset. So, so it is. So putting something together like that free digital locks and giving people, or the, the onboarding package with free digital locks to give people that peace of mind. Maybe you're going to put noise aware in there. Maybe you're going to do that, that design consult. Maybe you're going to, you know, you are going to give them a thousand bucks

to put new furniture in or to replace that old refrigerator or, or to turn that regular kitchen into a gourmet kitchen. Like these are, these are things that I think at that point, when you're using those, those compelling offers, the homeowner can see the vision of what you're presenting to. And then your USP, it is, it, it explains itself. Maybe I think that's maybe a little too general or too broad strokes there, but it is, it's, it's trying to figure out ways to capture that value. And the more you can build out those personas, the more you understand who you are trying to deliver to. I mean, let's face it, in our space, there's a lot of trusts or a lot of these larger entities that own a lot of these homes. They're probably not as worried about, you know, they have different concerns than do the small family who has a second home,

a second cottage somewhere, something small. They want to be able to use it. They want to be able to have that free unlimited owner use, which scares me all the time, but whatever. It's not an investment for them. So truly understanding who you're marketing to and segmenting that appropriately helps, as with anything, helps that offer go a little further and make sure that it is compelling. Because if I'm sending an ROI type of offer to someone who doesn't really care about that, is more concerned about being able to use the home whenever they want to, of course, we're not going to match up and we're never going to be able to sell that

on there. So I do think that a lot of what makes an offer compelling is understanding who you're marketing to and making sure that you're giving them something of value. It's just saying, we're going to make you more. We know that's not right, but it's really not right for the people who are more concerned about the home care than they are about that ROI. Yeah. I think that's like if you ever encounter a bad salesperson, what do they do? They keep going back to their script. You know what I mean? When it's like you're trying to buy a car and he's like, yeah, man,

it's got 300 horsepower. But like my wife doesn't care about 300 horsepower. Like she cares about safety. You know, she would care about reliability. Maybe she care about how it looks. You know what I mean? Like those are things that would be more important to her than the fact that it has 300 horsepower. And if the salesperson was just going back again and again on 300 horsepower, you're just going to be like, okay, dude, like I don't care about that. Right. And we do see that quite a bit now that the trouble with direct mail and the trouble with any sort of like media that's not interactive, right. That's like one-sided, whether it's a cold email, whether it's direct mail is that we don't know what the objections are. So we have to use our intellect and our intuition to try to predict what those, you know,

kind of roadblocks might be. Oh, am I going to be able to use my home? Like you mentioned a second ago, well, we actually allow unlimited owner use. You can block off whatever dates you want in our online system. You don't have to talk to us or anything. You log in, click block. You can use the property. We'll clean it for you, you know, upon your arrival and we'll clean it when you depart, get that ready for the next guest. Okay, cool. Like that, to your point, that may, that that's the hook for the person who goes, you know what? It's my second home. I go there frequently, but I want to cover my costs while I'm not there, which is really how our industry started anyways. Like this whole,

this whole idea of ROI, I feel like is a newer one. I say newer, I mean like 2020 forward, you know, and Mike Harrington has alluded to this many times before where it's like, he's been doing this for a long time, you know, 20 plus years. And he's like, it was never an ROI. Like there was never an ROI buying a beach house and, you know, X market and that sort of thing. Maybe there was a little bit, but it was always just meant for you. I it and then when it's not there you rent it out that was always the game so understanding like you said i think the mindset is so critical and the offers to your point the reason that you have to test different offers is number one you just don't know what's going to resonate with people but even within that group of 5 000 people you don't know which people are

going to resonate with which offer too what you described as far as segmentation makes a ton of sense once you know again if i was sitting in front of you talking to you you would know how to pitch me if you've done it before because you go, ah, Conrad seems to care about this. I'm going to try to guide the conversation in that direction and talk about how we do it that way. I may mention other things. I may mention our dynamic pricing. So hey, when you do rent out, when you're not here, we're going to try to get the most possible revenue out of the property. And even an owner that's not revenue focused or overly revenue focused, excuse me, is going to feel like that's a positive thing,

but it's not going to be their primary concern, right? Their primary concern. In fact, some people may worry, you know, I remember this, this a while ago where I had a client that I worked with here in the Myrtle Beach area. And he was indicating to me that a lot of his owners will tell him, go ahead and block out the bike weeks. We have two bike weeks. They get very crazy mild at times and they go ahead and block out the bike weeks. I don't want any bikers in my property basically was their conclusion. And, uh, you know, nowadays that would be seen as like ridiculous. Cause that's your, that's your chance, right? Yield up that revenue to the max, high demand, you know, high traveler, uh, you know, kind of profile coming in. These people are affluent. They have these, you know, 30, 40, $50,000 motorcycles. They'll pay whatever,

you know, let's go ahead and make our hay during these two weeks. But 10 years ago, that wasn't the mindset. The mindset was, I don't want my property to get damaged. You know, I know you're not going to have the chance to validate that there's someone quality in my place and they might damage it. And therefore I don't want to deal with that. So therefore block out the weeks and call it painting or whatever. And I was like, what, what a turnabout, right? When you think about what that owner would be optimizing for versus what a different owner would be optimizing for. Um, the, I think I've done this analogy before. So if the previous listener, you know, has listened to a lot of our episodes,

here's a bit of repeat here. I apologize, but I know there's some new listeners, which is that I think you should look to these industries that market kind of a commodity product, but do it in a very engaging way. The example I always give is, of course, the mattress industry. A mattress is kind of a commodity product. You buy one very irregularly.

Maybe you buy one every like 10 years, seven years. Like mattresses last a pretty long time. Unless you're a vacation host or manager, then you buy them all the time. Funny enough for your business. But as far as like your personal use, like I bet the mattress that's sitting in your house has probably been there for a few years and you might replace it. I think we replaced ours that we had before we moved into our old house and we just replaced it like a few months ago. So that was like six, seven years that we had that thing. And then we got a new one. And yeah, so you do it so infrequently, what do you see advertising constantly like right now as we record this they're

probably having a march madness sale you know for at the metro store when they go into spring it'll be the easter sale you know at the end of the month we'll get into april and they'll have something else that they're doing you know there's like they're always inventing new reasons and i think that the vocational manager can actually use the same idea because let's be honest you are not that you're marketing a commodity service i hope you not. But you are marketing something that doesn't really change month to month, like your approach to vocational management isn't different in March than it is in April. It's like we're doing the same things. So you've got to kind of create, I think this, like freshness to the media and to the marketing that you're doing. And I think that is one way to

do it is to have a lot of offers that you rotate in and rotate out. So people who pick up the postcard may have been like, Oh, I didn't know that i was getting a smart home kit or whatever um so maybe you could talk to this fact which is something that i've said before which is that sometimes uh we've gone through this process you and i together before we're like forcing the vocational manager to articulate what they do for their customer for their homeowner and they like realize i'm like wow this is a lot that you guys do on this postcard it looks like you're just saying like property management or vocational management. You're not going into the details and digging it out.

So maybe you could talk about like what that process is like to kind of go through. I know you guys have a marketing asset that you work on if they're a regulatory client called Key Messaging. Maybe you could talk about that and then how it helps you build some more compelling offers. Yeah, it is. We run people through a pretty long document.

I mean, it's the meeting that we use to do that is usually an hour long, and it usually almost always extends. I mean, this is something that you start to get people thinking in different ways about their business. It's not just, okay, how am I going to... It's not thinking about how am I going to get a homeowner or what do I do? It's really making them consider the business at a deeper level, not just guests, not just homeowners, but what do I do that's different? And it does,

it's taking them down to who is talking? I mean, we can go through the whole key messaging thing there, but who is talking about you? What are they doing? What are people who you currently work with, what are they saying about you? And it is, when you kind of throw that back on the property manager, it's just that aha moment of, oh, I hadn't really thought about how they are looking at us. I just thought about how I see the, and admittedly, it's how I see the marketing coming in from other competitors. Well, already you're starting in the wrong spot because you're focusing on what they're doing and not on what you're doing. I do.

I think that that's, it can be a painful conversation because a lot of the questions that we're asking, and again, we work with people who don't have any units to have 500 units or just acquire new properties. So it is, it's even those people that have 500 units, they may not know what sets them apart. They may just think, well, you know, right now it's just that we have this great brand and people know it and people like it and we don't have to do a whole lot of work. Well, you did a lot of work to get that brand to where it was. So let's not say that this is just luck and that, I mean, there was a lot of groundwork and equity that you had to put in to get out where you are. But it does come down to these things that they can't identify what they do better than someone else. So maybe they marketed themselves better than someone else previously and now they're able to leverage that.

But for the people who don't have that equity built in, it's a difficult conversation. But how can we use this review to kind of paint the picture of what your homeowners are looking for moving forward, what your guests are looking for moving forward? And it is, you keep double-topping on the money. It is one of the scariest offers that I still, like, Anytime I hear it on a strategy call, guaranteed revenue. And that probably, I mean, it probably goes back to that 2020, 2019 period where that's all people were. It is that I'm going to get you 15,000 a month. If we don't get that, I'm going to pay the rest. Well, in the perfect market.

Yeah, sure. That can work. But I still hear that not for a while. It felt like I was hearing it like every other week. Now it's maybe once a month, once a quarter type of thing. But there's still people that they have that so ingrained in their minds that that is the with me. Whoa, I get that that's probably compelling, except for when your accountant or bookkeeper takes a look at things and the revenue is not quite fluctuating, your controller's not able to get checks out to people, to homeowners, or we're scraping the bottom of the barrel. That is, I think there are other ways. I mean, there are just other more compelling offers, better ways to do it. The last time that I had someone suggest that as an offer, I just asked them, you know, what do you see, like, where do

you see that being more valuable to the homeowner than saying we're going to provide that? And I use the onboarding kit example. I said, well, they're you know, they want to make the money. I said, not everybody wants to make money. And it was that was just they hadn't thought about that. They just were so driven by because they're investors. They're in the real estate business. They you know, that that's what they know. But you still got to take into

consideration who is that audience? I mean, as in everything we do, it's all about that audience. It's all about who, making sure that messaging is, is reaching the right audience. And if you don't have the messaging, right, you, you're never, it doesn't matter what the offer is. You'll never be truly successful or have that sustainable growth and scalable growth that you're hoping for. So yeah, it's tricky. I was pulling this quote while you were going through that. It's Robert Collier had this quote, you need to enter the conversation happening in the customer's mind. So if you know what your homeowner is actually thinking about internally, then you can actually enter that conversation with the right offer,

whether it is revenue, whether it is property care, whether it is all these other things. I'm worried of property damage. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. All those things they're worried about. I'm worried that you're not going to do better than my last property manager. They may be in it with a property manager that's good. And they go, you know what? They're good. They're not great. I'm worried that you're not going to do better than my last property manager. They may be with a property manager that's good and they go,

you know what? They're good. They're not great. I don't know if, but there's no guarantee that if I switched you, it's going to be better. So you have to kind of enter that conversation and figure out a way to fix it. And sometimes testing the offer on your marketing is one way to do that instead of doing what does I think get a little formulaic and what does kind of get people in trouble, which is this idea of like repeating out the same things over and over again, free revenue projection, things like that. These things kind of tend to fall flat on their face, I think, if it's not, you know, kind of repeated. So I know we're roughly at time here, Paul, on your side of things. You have to jet today, so we will stop beating this up too

much. But I think it's an interesting topic. So hopefully the listener got some value out of it. Yeah, homeowner lead gen, it's hard to do. Your response rates are going to be low. Your commercial rates are going to be low. The best, largest, most successful companies in your industry who have spent millions of dollars on homeowner marketing still get relatively low response rates. By low, I mean like far less than 1% of the media that they send out. Certainly, if it's physical media, it gets responded to. So if you are a small property manager, to be honest, it might be even harder for you. But one way to fight against that is to come up with these clever, you know, creative offers.

And hopefully, we've given you some ideas today. And Paul's given you some ideas today that you can test and put into your media, your marketing, which can make your homeowner lead gen flow a little bit faster, get the leads coming in a little bit quicker. It'll definitely benefit you and your business. So that's all we got for today, Paul. Hopefully the listener is listening in a time capsule to our March 2024 predictions in April and everything that we said is true. And they know we they can talk about man not only did these guys know marketing pretty well they're pretty good about sports too you know maybe that's a that's a fun little you know it's always good to have that second thing kind of in your you know

little feather in your cap instead of just being a one-trick pony like some people accuse us of and they have accused us of in the past um but again thank you for listening we appreciate you if you made it this far you must have got some value out of the episode therefore you owe us one thing which is to go to your podcast app of choice, leave a review, five stars, click that button. Not only will it put a smile on her face, but it'll just make our whole day and we'll feel better for having this time today

recording with you. So thanks again, Paul, for your time. We'll catch everyone on the next episode of the Heads in Bed Show. Have an awesome day. Thanks so much.