Heads In Beds Show - Understanding The Lingo: Social Media Marketing For Vacation Rentals

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

In this episode Conrad and Paul revisit the "lingo" series and focus on social media marketing and paid social ads mostly on Meta (Facebook / Instagram).  Enjoy!⭐️ Links & Show NotesPaul Manzey Conrad O'ConnellConrad's Book: Mastering Vacation Rental MarketingConrad's Course: Mastering Vacation Rental Marketing 101🔗 Connect With BuildUp BookingsWebsiteFacebook PageInstagram🚀 About BuildUp BookingsBuildUp Bookings is a team of creative, problem solvers made to drive you more traffic, direct bookings and results for your accommodations brand. Reach out to us for help on search, social and email marketing for your vacation rental brand.

Welcome to the Head to Med Show presented by Buildup Bookings. We teach you how to get more vacation properties, earn more revenue per property, master marketing, and increase your occupancy. Take your vacation rental marketing game to the next level by listening in. I'm your co-host, Conrad. I'm your co-host, Paul. All right. Hey-host Paul. All right. Hey there, Paul, how's it going today?

Well, you know, we have the Tyford Merry House in Minnesota. We've let's see here, we've got a little ice, we've encountered norovirus and now COVID has made its way into the Manzi household. So, you know, I'm just loving the new year so far. 2025 has got a lot of great stuff going for me. Had to watch the Vikings lose to the Lions last night. Conrad, you've heard me complain for about the last five minutes or 10 minutes, or well, we've been on for a little while. So how are you doing?

Let's get some positivity in the new year recordings here. How are we doing? I will say, I don't know if I could be super positive, but I'm not as negative, maybe, if that makes sense. So you know, what, if we always went on here and said everything was I don't like people like that, to be honest with you, I don't like fake positive people who always say everything's going smoothly, who always indicate that everything's going awesome, who

always have the nicest thing to say, I think these people are kind of like medicine, they're good in small doses. And if you do too much of them, it's not a good thing. I like we actually have this thing internally. I think we've talked about this before in the podcast, we just think internally and I don't track it. It's not like this. It's not like this official metric or whatever, but we go around the room and we do personal win and professional win with our team every Wednesday on our team call.

And every once in a while, it's roughly like once every six weeks or so, someone will go, you know what, I don't have any wins and I go, all right, go ahead. And I let them, instead of saying all their wins, we do that, like, what's all your losses? Like everything that went wrong for the last week or so. And if you need to go back a little bit further, that's okay. And people use this sort of token. They turn it in roughly every month and a half or so. And then I go, yeah, that all sucks.

And then we just kind of laugh about it. And sometimes it does feel good to like not try to fake or pretend there's positive things going on when there's not positive things going on. and just be like, yeah, that was terrible. But you know what, I feel a little bit better now that I got it out. So maybe that's how you can feel next week and people listening in the future. Shoot, for all you know, they're winning and they're back the track. So it was a, it was a blow, but it wasn't a fatal blow. Let's say it's that way as we're recording before the advance of the

next round, or you could be crying into your into a towel a week from tomorrow. So who knows? We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Well, all right. Well, I don't think people tune in necessarily for the sports stuff.

They tune in probably more for vocational marketing. So we started this episode series last year. At this point, that was 2024. And we did kind of an understanding of the lingo episode. And we kind of skipped over social, not for any specific reason. We just didn't get to it.

And we thought, why not slot this in as a way, a quicker episode, maybe to kick us off here, recording and getting going in 2025. So this is a, the premise of these episodes is to kind of talk about some of the language that we use, or maybe another company that you work with, or a freelancer, or someone on your team might use to describe social media. I think we're probably focused a little bit more on the organic side today. We may reference some of the paid stuff, but for the most part, we're focused on social organic today. And what are those terms and metrics that you should keep an eye on or what terminology

is out there that you should be aware of? And I think that if you're aware of what the, not that you're going to become an expert in social, there's probably someone that you're hiring that's probably more knowledgeable on social, but you should be able to understand and have an intelligent enough conversation to know if that person working for you is on the right path of the wrong path based on what I've seen. So you and I are not, you know, neither one of us are necessarily like organic social focus. Like that's not the core thing that we're doing all the day, all day, every day. But I people on my team, we sell that service, we offer social posting for a good chunk

of our clients, we do it for them. And I think there's a lot of value, obviously, an upside in doing the social content creation. So where do you want to get us started on kind of these key social media terms? What comes to mind initially? Yeah, I mean, I think one of those things that I mean, it's the I think it's the pillar of overall social media is I mean, it's engagement. You're not on social media to not be seen. I think that's that's pretty clear as either as an individual or as a company, you're looking for some type of engagement. You're trying to create an ecosystem of fans, travelers, owners, whatever that looks like that is going to, it's a community.

This is your online community. If you're not engaging with that community, and it is as simple, likes, comments, shares, those are important. As far as getting your business, your brand out there, that's what you should be striving for to a certain extent. Now, it shouldn't all be about engagement and we'll talk about that a little later there. And I think there's probably a little vanity metric in what you're looking at with some of those engagement items. Heck, you can buy a engagement if you really want to.

So that's something to put that caveat in there. But I do, I think that at a very basic level, that's kind of what it's all about. That's what allows you to grow. I mean, if you're getting more likes, you're getting more comments, you're getting more share, you're expanding that community, you're expanding that ecosystem to allow for more visibility and

hopefully to be able to leverage that to highlight your individual properties or make individual sales or put some specials out there that are going to or some contests out there that are really going to drive and define how you can grow the business there. So I do. I think engagement is kind of one of those real principle keyword or key terms in the social media side of things. What do you think about that? We've got a whole list here, but I think that's a big one that always hits me first.

Yeah, I think it sounds simple, but counting the comments is one thing. Reading the comments is something completely different. So I think when it comes to engagement, the type of things that I'd like to see on high performing organic social content is, I mean, is that like, I like to see content that's actually there, you know,

that people are commenting to and their positive feedback from your ideal customer type, from the person that actually wants to potentially, you know, stay with you or potentially be a guest. So if you're posting a reel of the property and whether it gets a hundred views, thousand views, a hundred thousand views, whatever, I like to go look at the comments and see what people are actually saying, you know, I think there's a lot to learn often from that sort of, you know,

feedback, it sounds simple. So in a spreadsheet, I think sometimes you can miss the nuance, because to your point, Paul, you can pay for engagement, you can pay for comments, you can pay for a few likes, you can pay for a few different things there, but it doesn't necessarily provide the same value, I at argue, you know, it's kind of the classic like, Kevin Kelly 1000 true fans, like, I think if you have people who actually enjoy the properties, they comment on the post, I would take 100 or 200 of those people over 1000, you know, purchase followers that

just don't care about it. And I think that's one thing that we just broadly speaking, I think we're in good shape on that today. But certainly a few clients will hang around that old idea of like, I want more more followers on my Facebook page, I want more followers on Instagram. And it's kind of like, yeah, like, but did they care is really what matters nowadays much more on social, especially with very algorithmic feed where you could and we have clients that have these pages, these kind of like old shells of pages that have hundreds of 1000s of the client is a million like page that gets less reached than their brand page that has like 200,000 likes because they post content, but people

just don't care. So I think that that vanity is easy to fall into, like you mentioned right away with engagement. And I think that, that comes into reaching impressions. Again, you can buy reach, you can buy impressions pretty easily through paid media or whether it's paid or by like, do you use using Facebook ads and meta ads, I should say maybe, or whether it's actually going and buying followers, you know, from bot farms and things like that, that can be kind of fake, but I think it's reaching impressions for the right people. And when you're posting content, I

think you can tell pretty much right away, because you'll get actual messages from people asking very specific questions. It's not a message like, can I sell something to you? It's a message like, wait, are these travel aids available? Or hey, what's your policy on pets? Or hey, exactly where this is located if you didn't exactly put that information in the post.

That's the kind of comments that you know you're on the right track. And I would take, again, a much lower volume of those over a higher volume of reach that doesn't actually lead to anything. So that'd be my view on that as well. Yeah, that's, I mean, I always think reach versus impressions, it's great to see 10,000 impressions,

15,000 impressions, 20,000 impressions. If those impressions are going to the same 400, 500 people, there's a pretty good chance that you're, I think another thing that reach're, I think, another thing that reach impressions and then the other thing is frequency on the social media side is that, especially on the ad side, people are seeing the same ad 10, 15, 20 times, even if you're varying some of the content, some of the creative things like that, you got to pull it back and say, ooh, is this really hitting home? Am I actually getting, I mean,

is meta not understanding? is Facebook not understanding, Instagram, are they not understanding the value or are they just not feeling that there's enough engagement, as we went back to there, on these posts that I don't need to further expand that reach? That's, I think that's something that reach and frequency are two of those, especially when you're marketing to smaller groups.

I mean, smaller lists, smaller audiences, stuff like that. If you're only hitting 300 people, those impressions and that frequency kind of can skyrocket in a pretty major way. So just kind of keeping it on top of that and making sure that creative and the content that you're putting out there is continuing to hit people in a meaningful way. That goes into, I'll kind of hop into retargeting as well. I think that that's something that when people are seeing your brand, I mean you want to, you definitely want to ensure that once

people have that initial engagement with your brand, they're continuing to see your brand. So that Facebook pixel, this is the PSA to everybody to start the year in 2025. If you don't have the Facebook pixel on your website, boy, that's a missed opportunity to be able to at least start to aggregate the people who are hitting your website because ultimately you need to be able to get back in front of those people. And while again, I'm not a huge Facebook bobo by any means, if anybody who has listened would know, retargeting is very important.

Staying in front of those people at a reasonably low cost manner. I mean, in our space, on the traveler side specifically, people who are looking to plan those trips, it is. Inspiration takes a lot of, I mean, we've seen social media create a lot of inspiration. So continuing to stay on that path and retargeting people in that inspiration zone, I would say, super important, especially on the booking side of things. But

what do you think about the retargeting side and how important that is in just the full full funnel strategy there? Yeah, I mean, that's what I always tell people to start their ads with, you know, even if someone had a low budget, I'm like, we'll start with your targeting, we just target people that have been on your website, target people on your email list and target people that already follow you on social media, if you're going to do some ads. So this is swapping a

little bit more into that paid ad side of things, obviously, on I mean, we keep seeing social media too, just like we were going to get to this later, but I'll just hit it now. I mean, Facebook, Instagram is kind of where you're going to get I think the bulk of your reach and the bulk of your, I would say desire and interest. Certainly you could test and we have clients that have tested putting video content on TikTok.

I don't think we've nailed that format yet. I think the troubling part about TikTok, to be honest with you too, whether you're doing paid or organic, is that it feels very lumpy. Like you'll have a good outcome on a post and then you'll just go like goose egg for like post after post after post. And I see this on all the big accounts. So I'm like, well, it's not us. It's not me.

It's like a lot of people seem to struggle with this. So going back to running ads specifically on Meta, Facebook and Instagram, I think recharging is always a way to start. Even I tell people all the time, if you had $5 a day, like you can run ads to all the people that have been on your website, on your email list and follow you on social, and you're going to get at least some level of reach out of that. You're telling me you can't invest $5 a day. So people are aware of you like that to me, then you should be running the business, right? Like if you can't justify $5 a day, or $10 a day for your business, then I don't really know how you can justify you know, doing any sort of advertising for it because in my mind, although not many people

and I've said this many times before, will click from, you know, from Facebook or from Instagram over to your booking engine, make a reservation, that's not the point, they're gonna see that content. So if you haven't had other people are watching engaging with you're getting those comments, you're getting that positive stuff on there, and you're targeting the right people on the retargeting side. That's a pretty solid playbook to at least get you out of the nest,

so to speak, and get you going. And, you know, start to see some of that initial reach. So our next thing we had actually dovetails perfectly into what I was just saying there, creatives and I will say, we need to do some improvement on this regard with our I think our clients internally, we will typically launch what I just call statics or like, you know, just single image ads right away, like we'll get the going with static image ads. But I'm not always aggressive enough with getting video assets from clients or clients say, Oh, I don't have a video or I don't like the video. It's older. It doesn't show my case,

my property in the right way. And I think one thing that I've done a little incorrectly in the past is just shrug my shoulders and be like, Okay, well, when you get a video, let me know. I'm now being a lot more direct with clients of like, Okay, well, then we need to get a video shot. It's not an option. Let's say we need to get a video shot so that we can take that and cut that into an ad for, or an ad or social content for all of the stuff that we're doing. So it's interesting, too, how often you

can reuse different portions or clips of videos. So I don't think when I say video, it's not like you're committing to doing one video every single day for the next five years or anything like that. I think you can do these things in batches or you can take a look at a property, shoot it one time and then potentially use that for, you know, days or weeks at a time. Or if you're a property management company,

we have a client who's doing this right now. Actually, I think he listens by the way, and he went out and blocked, he found a relatively low low book today in December, cause this kind of his slow season went out and did multiple homes in one day when got a bunch of video footage of the property. So it's like eight or nine, put it all in the folder, you know, pop that up for us. And that should be enough to last us potentially a few months for social posts. Because we can chop up in different ways. And then also it could be, it's already proven to be a few paid ads that we're

doing for him as well. So yeah, I think the creative and what to do on the ad side, it's just become so heavily in video. Now I will say even if a client gave us awesome video that we loved, I would still throw static in there. And I will say, even if a client gave us an awesome video that we loved, I would still throw a static in there. And I would still potentially even throw a carousel ad in there because although video is dominant, it doesn't show absolutely everywhere. So my logic is like, why not make sure it's filling in any other admin inventory on meta?

But that's kind of my take on it is like, get an image live first, but then work, work, push hard towards video and then just leave the statics in there just to mop up anything the video isn't catching. But what's kind of your philosophy on that side of it? So because a lot of the focus has been on the owner side more recently, and then just leave the statics in there just to mop up anything the video wasn't catching. But what's kind of your philosophy on that side of it? So because a lot of the focus has been on the owner side more recently, what I've tried to do more frequently, and it was more static images certainly,

but trying to make sure that we were using the dynamic creative. So that's the one thing where I took it as the multivariate testing. That's kind of how we were gonna be able to do it. Small, again, we're working with smaller budgets, smaller audiences. I knew that the deck was stacked against me a little bit.

So how to kind of get that diversity of creatives in place, I've been plugging in multiple different headlines, multiple different descriptions. Well, I'm not as worried about the description on the Facebook side of things, but it is more about that image, more about getting those different headlines in and then seeing what is meta, what is Instagram, what is Facebook serving up more frequently? Is it the, you know, for the owner side, is it earn more money, increase your ROI?

Is it peace of mind? Because we know that there are a lot of different audiences and personas that people are considering, you know, reasons why they don't wanna manage their own property anymore, or reasons why they wanna switch to someone else. So really being able to vary up that content and those calls to action kind of help define what is it in this market, what specifically are they looking for?

Okay, it's ROI, ROI, ROI. That's what Facebook is serving up more frequently. That's what's being engaged with more frequently. So I think that's the one thing with the ad creatives. I like using the dynamic option because it does. It kind of lets, without doing a straight AB test for a headline or an image or something like that, you're kind of getting to multiply again,

multivariate testing and really do stuff like that. Now, that one caveat that I always also said was that, I don't know why Facebook is actually serving this ad up or this creative up as opposed to this. I don't know why it's serving up this headline as opposed to this. That's still that gray area, the black box that we'll probably never truly understand.

But I would say that's kind of the big thing. I mean, I think you hit the nail on making sure that you're using the right ad types for what you're trying to display. I think carousels are great options for displaying multiple properties. I think videos are crucial in any stage, but just being able to test and figure out

what creative is working, and we get a lot of opportunities to do it in Facebook because it is a little lower cost, we have a big audience, typically that we can go after there. But that is how I've tested and found that to be effective. Do you use dynamic at all? Or is that something? Do you are you just doing kind of the static image straight text, you know, single headline, single description, that type of stuff? I struggle with it a little bit, to be honest with you, because I think that I don't like

my copy getting messed with. And sometimes the combinations don't match up well. So that's sort of my battle against that. And now with the AI thing, that's another thing that's popped up recently, too, when you go and write an ad, it tries to like auto the other ones, which sometimes they're okay. Sometimes they're not. And obviously, you should review anything an AI tool does for you, of course. Yes. Just even if it's any good, particularly

on an ad, if you're going to spend money promoting it, definitely review it carefully from a copy perspective, or you go live. I'm not like anti AI, but I am like, anti not having any control. So I think that's the place we land on there. So I'm okay with it. I could kind of, you know, go either way with it. I guess the piece that I the struggle I have with that is that Facebook doesn't really do AV testing. What they do is they pick a winner. And that's the one they keep serving, right? So it's like, how did you give enough impressions to, you know, this particular variant or this particular copy,

if you've shown it a few hundred times and there's 10,000 people in my audience set that I wanna reach out to. So that's the piece I struggle with sometimes, just that Facebook gives up or Meta gives up too early on some of these tests. So that's the battle that I run with it. If someone's telling you they're running A-B tests

on a Facebook campaign, what they're probably doing, if they're doing it well, I would say, is they're doing it in separate ad sets where you actually have a separate ad set strictly for testing. Then if it's working well, you take that creative and rotate it into a main one. But that's not something most people are doing with a low budget, or should they be doing it at a low budget? At a low budget, you probably just want to run what you have and then get the data and

go from there. And if it's not working, just turn it off and try a new one. That's probably a better bet when you have a lower budget. But as your budget gets bigger, you can run like a true testing thing. So that's a piece I struggle with. I just probably like with Google for a long time and try to keep more control, more of my hand on the steering wheel

of a lot of these things. And then over time I get that there's data that indicates that it doesn't always, you know, make the most sense to do that. You should probably give the steering wheel a little bit to these machine learning algorithms with the ad platforms. But as long as it makes sense, I'm okay with it.

But by default, is this something I'm opting into on my side, generally. Sure. Yeah. So that talks a little bit about creative copy, you know, we kind of done these sort of KPI metric things before we get touch on these relatively quickly. A click through rate if you're running, you know, a sort of link post, first of all, good luck if you're running post organic. If you're running link, Mr. An ad, that's a different side of the coin. But it certainly feels like a lot of, you know, the reach nowadays on Facebook just gets crushed completely. If you're running a link, Mr. an ad, that's a different side of the coin. But it certainly feels like a lot of you know, the reach nowadays on Facebook just gets crushed

completely. If you put a link post in there, we certainly have clients where we've told them, hey, we're not going to post any link post content, we will do a feature property. But then if they message you or whatever, then like, you know, send them the link to the property. But if we put a link in that post, it's going to kill the reach. But click through it would tell you how often people click through, you know, from a social post over to your website. If you do over 1%, you're probably doing pretty darn well. So it's not driving a lot of traffic that way. You could track things like

conversion rate. That makes more sense in my mind when you're looking at it in a view through format on the ad side. So again, I've said this before, but don't expect many people will come from your social media pages to convert in that same browsing session. That does not happen very often. Even the clients that we've worked with, their projects that I've looked at that have significantly highly engaged large social audiences, most people don't click and then book through that social platform. They're doing some brand search later on,

they're coming back directly and so on and so forth. But you might want to track the number of visitors coming. That might be some health indicator, how many people are clicking over, how they're engaging, that sort of thing. I think we mentioned engagement earlier, but like engagement rate might be a valid thing to look at. So for example, how often are people engaging

with the content, that could be a good sign. Again, I'll go back to my earlier feedback about don't get two numbers driven, look at the quality of the comments, not just the quantity of the comments. And I think you'll find that if you're reaching the right people, you can kind of dial into that side of things.

And if you're doing ads, I think it's very fair to measure Facebook on a row as basis, over a longer period of time, I wouldn't do it on a week or a month, but if you're running Facebook ads, they've got to support your overall brand goals and larger advertising goals. And I think with Facebook ads and meta ads in general, I should say, I look at it as if I had to place these ad dollars in Google, could I do better? And there's certainly clients we have that run no social advertising whatsoever, the focus

strictly on search ads, because they feel like that's a better bag for their buck. They tried social and hasn't worked for them in the same way. I would say broadly speaking, these are clients who have to put it nicely, uninterested standard inventory. So I think those things do much worse on social media, generally speaking, than stuff that is more visually appealing. So if you're a property manager who has that sort of set

of inventory that is more standard or not engaging, I think I struggle more on social, organic and paid, versus someone who has the property where the property itself is the show, the property itself is the content. I think you can have a lot more success in that regard. So that's firing through some of the KPIs. What are some other KPIs that you might look at

if you're managing a social account or you were auditing one? What would you look out for? I mean, I think that is, I think those are the keys. You can certainly look at the followers. I mean, that is something that it is good to know what that number is. Chasing it, I think, tends to be a problem. I think that's the thing.

I think anytime you start to chase the metrics and chase the KPIs on social, you're gonna get upside down in a hurry, because it is. It's just, it's not as, I think Google is just more concrete on the search side of things. There's just more you can genuinely go at when you know there's an upper limit.

There's never, it's an infinite upper limit on the social side of things. So you can kind of chase as far as you wanna go, but there's a limit to the value and you're gonna have that diminishing return at some point there. So I think we nailed the KPIs pretty well there. I mean, just looking at the overall platforms and channels

that you have options to use in the vacation rental space, I think it should be pretty clear what we've talked about primarily here, it's Facebook and Instagram. I think Meta has put together a platform and it's a huge platform. There's over a billion users, billion and a half maybe,

that are on those two specific channels. So there's a good chance that you're gonna hit the people that you need to hit there. Organically staying on top of that as well as running paid ads, I think we've both seen success in that area. TikTok is that emerging channel that everybody wants to be on, but you've got to have the right content to be on there.

But if you do, I think there's opportunities to see some success there. Same thing, if you're using it doing TikTok video, I think if you're doing more long form, YouTube should be in your playbook as well there. So that's something that I've seen a lot of people just doing those virtual property tours. They've got 100, 200, 300 of them out there on YouTube and they don't get a ton of views,

but you know, a dozen views a month or something like that over time that can build up and can get you a little bit of love, a little additional engagement there as well. We've got Pinterest on the list. That's something that I, at one time we were in late teens, 18, 19, we were trying to push more people to use that, to get that visual discovery inspiration. I think that the users probably are down a little bit

on Pinterest. I just don't hear as much buzz about that anymore. So, I mean, maybe that's something that you've seen more on the on your side of things. I think you can get traffic from Pinterest, the trouble I've had with it is that it's never seemed to lead to a lot of the right type of traffic. So I don't just mean last click stuff. I mean, the trouble is, I think a lot of people are in

Pinterest, literally just to look at things, right? It's visual inspiration. So it's like the example I give, and I've had this client that I've talked about before, like on my website, and we work with a large cabin rental company in Catlinburg and Pinch Forge in the past, who actually had a solid Pinterest presence, but they would get people coming to the page that are just like, oh, I like the interior of this cabin. I like the pool in this cabin. I like the way they did the driveway. And it'd be people that were building a cabin in like Oregon, and they were just looking at pictures of cool cabins in Tennessee. In other words, there was no intent

to actually travel to Tennessee to stay in one of these cabins and book it. It was just literally visual inspiration. So I think as far as social traffic goes, I just put Pinterest, the lowest priority, you know, value. It's the funny part is you can drive a high quantity relatively inexpensively, but I just don't see it ever converting, you know, and I know it's not converting. And I know it's not relevant traffic because when I look at like metrics like time on page or how often the photo gallery gets clicked on or how people put in date, I'm not even looking at bookings, I'm just looking at like, some sign of life that they're using this in some meaningful way. And then I'm getting something the

backside of it. And I could almost never find that data when I looked at it at Pinterest. And this is across 50 60,000 visitors a year, you know, coming from a platform and not really seeing it convert well. So if you want traffic, just the sake of traffic, or if your property is literally so unique, I have one client that fits this bill, that someone could be so inspired by how it looks that they will come stay with you. I think Instagram is going to work well for you. I think Pinterest could potentially work well for you. But I think generally speaking, unless you have the budget to

do so, see my book Mastering Vocational Marketing, we talk about it, master what these one or two channels first, Facebook and Instagram, and you're probably going to get a lot more reach. And then maybe the TikTok channel would be the one I probably want to explore third. From there, I just have a hard time justifying someone spending much time on, you know, like, you know, Pinterest, that sort of thing. We had I know we're at a time here, maybe we could do a future episode on YouTube, because I do think there's, there's something to be said there for someone doing YouTube

well could potentially see a lot of reach out of it. I guess I don't even know what I consider YouTube at this point. I guess it's not really a social media platform, although it's comment driven. There's comments, obviously in the video, that you know, YouTube is almost more like a search engine in a way, but you don't really own any of the content or you're not really posting any of the content, you know, there for consumption. So I think YouTube is just its own thing, like a social platform.

It's not search engine, it kind of behaves a little bit like both those things in some way. But YouTube is just YouTube, like it's just, it's a, it's its own channel in a way, you know, and I think that people can certainly do well on YouTube by building a community building a following. I fell this guy, the Pacific Bend guy and Blake on his first name right now, but I think his last name is Luke, Doron or Tavon loop, I think is his name. He built I think as much of his reach off Instagram and YouTube.

And there's I think he has like a million subscribers on YouTube. And he's building these projects out in Oregon or Washington State, I believe. And the whole premise was just people following along the journey. And then when he opened it up for booking people booked it. So I think you could absolutely do well on YouTube short form or long form. But I think it almost takes like this rabid dedication to understanding the YouTube formula, and then applying that

to exactly how you're doing that channel. And I just haven't seen anyone do it well outside of these people that are doing it more for creativity sake and launch. And here's what the process is like. I haven't seen like your traditional property manager do YouTube well today outside of just using it to host things like property tours or walkthroughs and things like that, which can get you a little bit of reach. But I think if someone was actually making like a storytelling format for YouTube, I think they do well with it, but I just haven't seen it yet. So that's kind of my final thoughts. But yeah, Paul, all good. I know we're, I know we're at time for today. So we might have to come back and do a future deeper dive

into other social ad metrics and things like that. But by the time we record next time, Paul, you're going to be feeling better. The Vikings will have won another game. They're going to be on to the next round of the playoffs. Things are going to get a little bit better. It's going to make you happy on the social network. So we appreciate everyone for listening in today

and your time and attention. We'll catch you on the next episode of the Heads of Med Show. Please follow, subscribe, leave us a review. We appreciate those things. And we're looking forward to more awesome episodes in 2025. Thank you so much.