High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 127: Transition to College Athletics with Confidence with Carmen Tebbe Priebe, Ph.D., Sport Psychologist at Upside Down Performance & University of Iowa

Episode Date: August 13, 2017

Dr. Carmen Tebbe Preibe spent 9 years at the University of Oklahoma Athletic Department. At OU, she provided counseling, performance enhancement, leadership, and team-building services for all OU student-athletes.  While we loved life in Oklahoma, her and her husband wanted to raise our children closer to family and moved to Ankeny, Iowa in August 2015.  She worked for the Iowa State University Student Counseling Services for 9 months and then started in her current role as a part-time sport psychologist for the University of Iowa Athletics Department.  In addition to serving the Hawkeyes, she has a consulting and private practice business, Upside Down Performance, with Dr. Angie Fifer (Episode 40: Confidence is a Decision). Carmen and Angie have over 25 years combined experience and offer on-line courses for student-athletes in transition. To learn more about their course, go to upsidedownperformance.com where High Performance Mindset listeners get 25% OFF any on-line course with the coupon code: TRANSITIONS. Find the full show notes at cindrakamphoff.com/upsidedown.

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff, and I'm grateful that you're here, ready to listen to episode 126 with Carmen Tebbe Priebe. The goal of these interviews is to learn from the world's best leaders, athletes, coaches, and consultants, all about the topic of mindset to help us reach our potential or be high performers in our field or sport. Now in today's interview, Carmen and I talk

about her experience in college athletics. She spent nine years at the University of Oklahoma Athletic Department, where she provided counseling, performance enhancement, assessment, leadership, and team building services for all OU student-athletes. Now, she loved her time in Oklahoma, which you're going to hear about, but her and her husband decided to raise their children closer to family and moved to Iowa a couple of years ago. She worked for the Iowa State University Student-Athlete Counseling Services and is now a part-time sports psychologist with the University of Iowa Athletic Department.

In addition to serving the Hawkeyes, she has a consulting and private practice business with none other than Angie Pfeiffer, who was guest number 40 on episode 40, Confidence is a Decision. And they recently started a company called Upside Down Performance. Now, combined, their experience is over 25 years of teaching and working with college student athletes. Now, one of the things that Carmen and I talk about towards the end of this interview and a little bit throughout is a new course that they just developed for student athletes to

excel in college. Now, the course which Carmen will talk more about is full of practical strategies like mental skills training, academic skills, and team cohesion to help you gain more control over your mental game and help you transition to college. Now there's three things amazing about this course. First, believe it or not, they are giving all of the listeners to the high performance mindset a 25% off of all of their courses. So this is the first discount that I know that they're giving. Amazing. 25% off of all of their courses. So this is the first discount that I know that they're giving. Amazing. 25% off. So you can head over to their website, UpsideDownPerformance.com,

and use the code TRANSITIONS to get the 25% off. So again, that's UpsideDownPerformance.com with the code TRANSITIONS. And the cool thing that we talk about in this interview is that the course is accessible. It's affordable. And you also have lifetime access to help kind of help you learn at your own pace, but then review as you need so that you can prepare for the moment and don't let unexpected challenges or the mental game hold you back. So my favorite point in this interview that Carmen shares this, think outside the box.

Just because it sounds different doesn't mean it won't work. If you enjoyed this interview, we'd encourage you to head over to Twitter and you can tag myself mentally underscore strong as well as upside down performance at upside down perform. And again, you can find the full show notes over at

cindracampoff.com slash Upside Down. Now, before we head over to Carmen's interview, I'd like to read one iTunes review. Now, this is from T Adams For You. And T Adams says, I really like the quick eight to ten minute segments. Those are the radio spots that I provide every week. And T Adams For You says, Love the interaction between the hosts and of course, Cinderous Tips. So thank you so much T Adams for heading over to iTunes and leaving that review.

Now if you could help us do one of three things. If you could tweet about the podcast or share it on social media, that would be amazing. Help us reach more and more people each week. Or you can head over to iTunes like T Adams for You Did. Or you could tell a friend about a podcast. That would be awesome. So without further ado, let's bring on Carmen.

I'm so excited today to welcome Carmen Tebby-Preeve on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, Carmen. Thank you for having me. Awesome. I look forward to kind of diving into your work and a little bit more about what you do. So why don't you just start us off and tell us what your passion is? Sure. So I mainly focus with college student-athletes, and I've been working in that setting for the last so about 15

years and even had like a little bit of a brief transition out of it when we made a family move and during that time it really just solidified how much I love this population so I got right back into it. Well that's awesome so just give us a little bit of you know brief snapshot of you know where you're at now and how you got there. Sure. So I'm at University of Iowa Athletics Department and I've been with them for about a year and a half now. Before that, so I was a volleyball student athlete. I played at USC Upstate in South Carolina and then I got my master's at Wake Forest and then my doctorate from North Texas in counseling psychology and specialize in sports psychology. And so after

that, I landed at Oklahoma and I stayed there for nine years and was very happy in terms of what my career was, but we just really wanted to get closer to family, had two small children. And so we made the move to Iowa and it was a professional leap of faith for me. We followed my husband's career and it all worked out really well. But in that time, I had to do a lot of kind of reflection on what I wanted to do and how I was going to spend my time and really focus. And I ended up working at Iowa State Counseling Center for about nine months. And then after that transition to Iowa. And so right now I'm in a part-time position, which has been different, which has been goods and bads of difference.

It's been really good because I have more time to focus on outside projects. You know, obviously the cons is I just don't get to be around as much. So I focus more on a few teams, but I don't just, I just don't have the same opportunity to get to know everybody in the department, which I really do miss. But one of these things that it's given me the chance to do with having this extra time is we started a business called Upside Down Performance. And so last year at a conference, Angie Pfeiffer and I, she's been a colleague that I've had a friend for years. We just started talking. We were both in this kind of same transition in life of working in a part-time role, trying

to figure out some private practice and consulting on the side. And so we just, we ended up getting closer and just talking about, well, what are you doing? What are you trying and sharing ideas? And then we actually went to a presentation that you did with some of your colleagues. And they kind of learned about online classes. And so as we were talking about it, we figured, okay, maybe this is something we should look into.

And then just some momentum built from that in terms of like a very shared experience and passion that Angie and I both have is the transition to college athletics. We'd both been teaching classes on that for several years and had worked with freshmen in terms of how do we really get them prepared as soon as they're on campus. And so that just sparked the idea of how about we make this online resource so we can get these high school and club athletes prepared before they even get there. So as we're doing this, we're, you know, we've got all these ideas, we've got

the content down and we realized that, you know, an opportunity for growth for us was the technology part and just learning that totally different industry. And so we brought on a third partner. Her name's Chelsea Latorre and she helps us with a lot of the logistics and keeps us in line on our deadlines and all that. So we just launched the course and we're really excited about it. It's upside downDownPerformance.com. And, you know, I'll probably talk a little bit about it as we go in terms of how it relates to the work I'm doing now, but we're really excited about it and learning a lot from it. Learning a lot. Yeah, that's awesome. So for people who don't know who Angie Pfeiffer is, she's the

Sports Technology Coordinator at Drexel University. Tell us a little bit more, Carmen, like why Upside Down Performance? Like what does that mean to you? And, you know, what do you hope to help athletes do with your courses? Sure. So the courses are split into nine different modules, and we broke it down into different mental skills training, but also very focused on the whole experience of what a student athlete means. So all of the social challenges, all of the academic expectations, all of the athletic expectations, you know, what we've really learned in our work is, you know, if you're, if you're an athlete at a D1 level, you were very good before. And when you get there, everybody else is good. And just learning a new

way of approaching how, how you learn new things, how you kind of push through adversity. And so we broke the course up into this is what you can expect. This is what we've seen in our work. You know, between Angie and I, I think we've got a combined 25 years of work in college athletics. And so we share some experience with them, some different strategies, and then really try to just give them the confidence that they're going to be able to do well as soon as they get to college. Yeah, that's good. And I'm thinking like upside down means like maybe they're thinking about performance in a new way or, you know, tell us why the phrase upside down. So I'm a Jack Johnson fan and he has a song called Upside Down.

And it's all about just learning and being open to new possibilities and being curious. And I've always just liked the song, just kind of like the beat. Um, but as we were kind of building this business, I heard it one day and I was trying to come up with something that was a little bit different and unique and then it just kind of clicked. And so I asked them and we went with it. Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. I love, I love when it's like connected to a story, you know, the reason that you name things or, you know, the reason you do what you do. You have such an incredible experience now at Iowa and at the University of Oklahoma for nine years. Tell us what you see your polygraphic struggle with. I think that, you know, the pressure of performing at that level,

and that's what everybody sees from the outside, is just them as competitors. But the reality is college students that are not athletes have a lot going on in this developmental stage, just in terms of relationships, time management, and stress, family dynamics. And so what I often work with is, how do we improve your athletic, kind of your mental skills and be the best competitor that you can be, but also who are you as a person? How are your relationships going? How are academics? And so I really work from a broad spectrum of, I'm a licensed psychologist, so I do work with mental health concerns, but all the way to the other end of the spectrum in terms of everything's going well, how can we be even better?

You know, I think the speed of life right now is so different and all the expectations they have. And just I learned so much from the students that I work with in terms of how to manage adversity, the stress, how to, you know, just keep pushing every day. So it's a lot of stress on them. Absolutely. And, you know, I think about Oklahoma, Iowa, those are pretty big time programs, you know, so what do you see specifically in those bigger programs that, you know, is unique to that, let's say that level compared to maybe other college athletes? I would say how much public exposure they get. And so they're going through just the normal things that everybody goes through, but there's a lot of people that are interested in how it's going for them.

And so for them to just kind of maintain their own identity, maintain who they are, and to block out all that noise, and they're going you know, they're going to stumble. They're going to make mistakes, you know, just like we all do. It's just for most of us, all those mistakes aren't very public. So, again, just the normal college student challenges, but then also, you know, the competitiveness and the expectations are very, very high. You know, it's not rec sport.

You're getting there, and you're expected to perform. And it's grueling, the work that it's required to do well in terms of how much time you have to put into it, what it does physically. And so for them to just be able to focus and give everything that they have for sport to be the type of competitor that they're wanting to be. And then, oh yeah, how about academics? How about their social life? How about everything going on personally? So just the expectation on them is very high. Yeah, absolutely. And I like your holistic approach that it's not just performance, but it's academics and it's about kind of this identity they have, who they are. So let's say you are working with an athlete who's really struggling. Maybe

they're getting a lot of criticism. There's a lot of noise coming at them. Perhaps they're a high profile athlete. How might you work with someone like that who is getting a lot of negativity on the outside? Well, one of the things I first try to do is help them identify, you know, who is their inner circle that's willing to give them feedback that they need. Because, you know, we don't want to get rid of all feedback just because it's negative, because there might be some feedback that challenges them and really pushes them. But really trying to figure out what can we learn from the adversity that we're going through? Like, what is something that needs to improve? But then also recognizing that, you know, there comes a point where not paying attention to that is it preserves

our focus. And that's, that's very hard. And so I often, I encourage athletes just take the social media off their phones, take the app off their phone. It's so, it's so much easier to not look at that all day long. If it's not on their phone, that might mean they go look at it later, but you know, as soon as we let that information enter our focus, we can't start, we can't help but think about the what-ifs and what people are thinking of me. So they really have to protect their focus and make sure they're getting direction and feedback from the people who know them well and who are able to give them the feedback that they need. And it's very much just kind of narrowing in on, I often use the term like, who's your board of directors? Who are the people that, you know, you trust to tell you what you need to do to improve, but they also have your best interest

in mind. Absolutely. So who are your board of directors? And I like the idea of protecting your focus and, you know, your focus doesn't need to be on the things that are distracting you. You know, so I'm thinking about how you just have this incredible opportunity to work with some of the best athletes at the college level. What do you think, Carmen, separates those that are, you know, outstanding from others? Like what do they do mentally to be able to, you know, deal with the pressure and really be at their best as often as possible? I think they're coachable. I think they're willing to push themselves and they're willing to try things that are different because again, if they got to this level, something was going well. They wouldn't have gotten recruited to this level if they weren't doing well, but then often they'll

get to this level and if they never really learned how to work hard and how to take feedback and really buy into the system, you know, if they're resistant to what the coaches or the system is trying to do, you know, then we're going in different directions and we're not all on the same page. So the athletes who are really willing to buy in and do the work all the time, not just some of the time, and there's trade-offs, there's sacrifices. They don't have the same social life. They don't have as much time to go do other things. You know, even with their relationships, they have to talk to their significant others about, you're not going to see me as much as what other people get to see the people that

they're dating. It doesn't mean I don't care about you. It just means I only have so much emotional, mental and physical energy to go around. And so they're very deliberate about how they spend their time and their energy. All right. Awesome. So I hear coachable. They push themselves. They try things that are different, maybe get out of their comfort zone. They're deliberate with their time. Let's say there's somebody that, you know, you're starting to work with that perhaps is not coachable. You know, how might you approach that? Well, I think it matters as to why aren't they coachable. So is there a reason for not being coachable because they haven't bought into the system? They haven't, they don't trust their coach or is it there's something else that's holding them back in terms of pride? This has always been working for me.

Why would I change my ways? Is it something else that's going on? Are they getting outside influences? Because that happens a lot where coaches will be giving some feedback, but then you've got these other people saying, no, this is what you need to be working on. So we really got to figure out first what's the root of why they're not coachable and then take it from there in terms of challenging. And how I usually phrase it is what you're doing right now, working. If it's working, keep doing it. If it's not working and you're telling me it's not because you'd rather be in a different place, how about

we try something different? And then we start figuring out, well, what could we try different? Yeah, that's good. I like that idea of just like well, what could we try different? Yeah, that's good. I like that idea of just like asking yourself what's working and if it is keep doing it, if not, you know, make some changes, make some adjustments. Carmen, let's talk about, I know you do some work with teams, but also do work individually. Tell us about, you know, mental training topic that you cover with, you know, most of your clients? I like to start with energy management. And so a lot that has a lot of different terms, arousal management, anxiety management, I tend to use the word energy management.

And I have this kind of graphic that I go over with them. It's called the go zone, where we all have this like optimal level of where we're just at our best. And if we get too hot, we tend to be a little bit too agitated. We're pressing things. We're over amps. And if we're too low, we're in the blue zone and we're flat. We're bored. We're not doing enough.

And so I really try to help them become more aware of where are they at every day in that zone. And it depends on different tasks and just knowing that it doesn't have to be the same all the time, but is it appropriate for what we're doing right now? And then I think that's just a good basis for us to start working on refocusing strategies and confidence and intentional, you know, focus the routines. So that's kind of the basis of what I do with a lot of them because that brings just a lot of awareness. But then that also helps me from like a mental health perspective because there are some athletes where the performance anxiety is more pervasive and we actually have an anxiety disorder. And that helps me teach them what that difference is.

Or the athlete isn't burned out. It's not that they're just having a bad day. They actually have depression. And so I use that continuum a lot in terms of them understanding just their own kind of better insight into what they're bringing. Absolutely. So they become more self-aware of when they're at their best. And then what I hear is like you teaching them different strategies to get in this go zone more often. Right. Absolutely. What about your work with teams? Tell us a little bit about that and, and perhaps share with us, you know, a signature technique that you might use with, uh, with teams. Well, my work with teams is very much dependent

on what the coaches want with the team. Um, it's a much more collaborative experience in terms of, is there a certain topic or issue the team wants versus the coaches wants? And, you know, I would say that that is the main thing where that relationship with the coach is so important. Because if you're not on the same page in terms of what you're doing as a team, it could feel like you're teaching them strategies that are different than what the coaches are doing. So number one, I'd say my approach is we all have to know kind of what we're working on. I'd say, you know, a signature technique I use is there's this game that I use. I've used it for years. It's called win as much as you can. And it is about individual goals and team goals. And how do you balance those when they

feel like they're competing with each other. So how do you strive to be your best while putting the team mission ahead and then what behaviors tend to get in the way of doing that. And so it just brings up a lot of great opportunity for discussion in terms of what they're doing every single day. Yeah and when you think about teams that are performing at their best where is is that balance between individual and team and what they're working to strive for? They tend to realize that the more they focus on the team goals, the better their individual performance tends to be, even if that outcome isn't what they hoped it would be. And that's, it's really difficult. It's very difficult because sometimes people have to play

a role that that's not the role they would have chosen. That's not the role that they had in the past. That's not the role they thought they were going to have when they got to college. But the more you fight that role, the less satisfied you're going to be with your experience. Could you give us an example of a team that maybe saw that when you were working with them, you know, saw that their individual and their team goals were in conflict? A lot of times I'll just start with like very small behavior changes where they're willing to see if I make some tiny adjustments, that's going to help the good of the team. And then we'll reflect back on what did you do and what changes did they make to kind of build

momentum. Because if you ask them to just make big changes all at once, if they fundamentally don't believe in that team mission, which unfortunately can happen, small changes tend to be more doable. And then we gain momentum, we get some progress, and we're willing to do more things and stretch ourselves even more. You know, I'd like to, Carmen, talk a little bit about yourself and, you know, I'm thinking about even just your transition between Oklahoma to Iowa. Tell us a little bit about that transition and, you know, why you decided to make it. So my husband is from Iowa and I'm from Southern Illinois. And after we had our second child, he got a job opportunity. So a lot of it was just I was supporting my husband's career and knew that was best for our family.

But the other thing was I knew that I was very happy at Oklahoma, but I also we wanted to be closer to family and just have the opportunities that that brings us. And then it also gave me the chance to try some new things that, you know, are fun and challenging. And so when we first made the transition, I didn't even have a job. So we had moved, I have a toddler and an infant. And it was, you know, I'd say my professional identity, I was, I was lost a little bit trying to figure out what I wanted next. But I just kept always getting pulled back to college athletics was my passion. You know, I kept, I still was interested in it. And then the opportunity came at Iowa State to work in their counseling center. And then through that, I got to know the athletics department

fairly well. You know, there was a lot of staff members that knew each other at Oklahoma and Iowa State because there's the same conference. And so I just was a lot of staff members that knew each other at Oklahoma and Iowa State because there's the same conference. And so I just was ended up to make some relationships there. And while I was working with both college students and college athletes, that was the first time that I had been working with non-athletes and just recognizing what I thought my own strengths were, and where I really felt like I was most effective, most inspired. And, and that's not to say that, you know, I don't enjoy working with non athletes. But in terms of like the bulk of what I was doing, I just I missed it, I really missed it. And so this job opportunity came up at Iowa, and it's a little bit of a unique role because it's part-time, and some of the work I do is remote.

And so while I'm on campus, I'm working a lot with teams and coaches, but then I do a lot of my planning and administration from home because it's an hour, 45 minutes away from my house. And so it's a little bit of a creative, unique role, but it's really ended up just fitting for my family because, you know, when I'm there, I'm very focused on what I need to do. But when I'm home, I still have, you know, the attention and flexibility for my little kids. Yeah, that's, that's great. You know, I find just like the transition really fascinating that you described that, you know, it was like a little bit of your professional identity was lost and you're really trying to figure out where you wanted to go. As people are listening, you know, what insight can you give in terms of people who are, who maybe are going through the same type of transition, you know, that they

might be transitioning maybe from, from high school to college athletics, or, you know, maybe they're transitioning into just a different position in their job, or maybe they're not sure where they want to go and they're kind of stuck. What did you learn about yourself or, you know, about happiness or performance during that time frame that you can share with us? It was a kick in the butt to think about things differently. You know, I had to be creative. I had to come up with different ideas that before I wouldn't have ever considered because, you know, the opportunity that I had at Oklahoma, it wasn't right in front of me where I could just step into it. So I had to really work hard to

build the relationships, but also to just think outside of the box of, you know, just because this looks different than what I had thought it was going to look doesn't mean it's not going to be a good thing. And there are so many ideas that I like this, this business that I started with Angie Pfeiffer, I never would have, because it took some, you know, it took a lot of time to create and it took a lot of mental energy to really be creative. And so I think, you know, the transition, although it was definitely, you know, scary for me, it, it put me in a position where I had to think of new things that before I would not have thought of. Nice. So it allowed you to be more creative and this new opportunity that you wouldn't have had if you're still in Oklahoma.

Right. You know, Carmen, one of the questions I ask everybody in the podcast is to tell us about a time that you failed. So that we can learn something. And the idea of that question is just that failure can be really helpful in our journey. And sometimes we fear failure or we react to it in a negative way. But in fact, it really helps us learn a lot about ourselves. So maybe share with us a story, you know, a time that didn't go so great for you and what you, what you learned from it. Sure. So I was working with a team and we were working kind of on a team wide basis, but also I had a lot of the individuals on the

team that I was working with. Some of it mental health, some of it performance, combination of both. And we had been making a lot of really good momentum. I had been getting some good feedback from the coach, felt like I was getting good feedback from the athletes. And so, you know, when we get good feedback, we tend to think, all right, I'm on a roll. Let's just keep doing what I'm doing. And I had kind of these ideas of these different things we were going to be working on. And I had one athlete that came in and, you know, rather than asking this athlete what they wanted to work on and what was really important to them, I kind of had this agenda that I put on it because I had been getting all this good feedback

and we just, we just didn't click. And the whole session just felt a little bit more forced than what our previous work had been. And, you know, luckily, this athlete came back. But when I was kind of reflecting on what happens, I just kind of realized I never really checked in with this athlete. And so when they came back, I stopped and I said, you know, what would you like to work on today? And this athlete basically gave me the feedback that last session they considered not coming back. And so, you know, what I really learned from it is like, you know, I'd been doing this work for years and I knew it and I had been teaching trainees, you know,

make sure that you're not imposing your agenda and, you know, been supervising this, but we're all still, you know, we can all still make those mistakes and you can never get too comfortable that, you know, what you're doing is what you should be doing. And that this is the way it, you know, that every time it should go, because especially when we get good feedback, because we assume that's what we should do. And so it was just really a lesson in me. And for me that, you know, don't get caught up in that momentum and make sure you're meeting them with the needs that they have and that you're checking in with them. Yeah. So what I really hear is more like a service mindset, really being there for the

athletes and going in with your own agenda. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really great lesson that you learned that I appreciate that you shared with us. All right. So, you know, if we go back up to like learning a little bit more about kind of how you do the work that you do, you talked a little bit about how you use the energy management, the GoZone. I really like that. Helping athletes understand their board of directors, you know, who are they, who are they surrounding themselves with?

Who can, who are they surrounding themselves with? Who can they connect with? Could you tell us maybe, Carmen, another signature technique or perhaps a specific intervention that you use with people that you work with? You know, a big part of what I do is kind of just relationship building in terms of are they making the relationships with their coaches, with their teams, with others. And so while it's not necessarily a mental skills technique, I think, you know, it would certainly apply to it's going to improve their performance, but it often takes a little bit more of like a mental health balance, but I see that very much as a continuum anyway. But a big thing that I'm trying to get them to do is understanding which relationships really fill them up, make them feel confident, which relationships are more that they need to be polite and respectful and, you know, good teammates and which relationships maybe are unhealthy. And just increased awareness of who you're allowing in your circle is so important because they affect every single day. You know, what's, there's a lot of, you know, literature and everything out there

about organizational dynamics and, you know, working with teams and a lot of it's at the business level. And so I think a lot of it applies, but at the same time in other settings, most workers don't go home with the people that they work with. They're not living together with them. They're not going out with them socially. And so it gets a little bit of a trickier dynamic in terms of how do you manage all these relationships when you're constantly around people? And so I really, really focus on what are you learning from these relationships and not getting too caught up in the stress that is just naturally going to happen. Right. So being really deliberate with your relationships, that's one of the things that I hear and working to build the ones that you really need, but also surrounding yourself with

people that are going to be helpful in your journey. Right. That sounds great. You know, one thing you said, Carmen, that I'm interested in learning more about, you said is that you see mental health as on a continuum. Tell us a little bit about your perspective on that. Okay. So, you know, my background in training and the work I do, it's very much that, you know, people, we go through different phases, different stages where, especially in the college years, where there might be times where we are, we're not actually functioning very well, where we could potentially have a mental health illness. And then there's other times where we might be functioning very well, but we could be doing better. But most of the time, we kind of slide back and forth between those two ends of the continuum. So I really see my role as

I have to figure out where are we at at any given moments on that continuum. Because if I'm trying to do mental skills training with somebody who actually has a mental health illness, the words that I'm using could actually be very stigmatizing. So for example, you know, people will ask me what's my favorite quote. And I have to be very deliberate about even which quotes I use in my office. Because on one hand, I think in doing some mental skills training, and you know, I'm you're doing some mental skills training and, you know, I'm trying to teach them being more aware of their thoughts and how can you use your thoughts to be more productive? How can we accept our thoughts? How can we build confidence?

And the very next client that I have could have a disorder that, you know, for example, depression. One of the things I teach is it's faulty data. You know, the thoughts that you're having are accurate. And until we stabilize how you're doing, we don't want to buy into those thoughts very much. And so those are two very different messages that if I'm not, you know, pretty deliberate about where are we at on that continuum, I'm not going to give them what they need. And I could actually make it worse for them. So most of the attention on that gets in terms of like if you miss a mental health condition and you're trying to do mental skills, but actually the other way too, you know, if I've got someone coming in who's, who's functioning really well, but they come in and I'm using terms and words that make them feel, you know, what I hear a lot

is like, do you think I'm crazy? You know, if I'm using things that feel very stigmatizing, they're not going to feel comfortable coming in. And so I have to be just really deliberate about, you know, what my approach is, depending on what their functioning is. And that changes, you know, I could be working on someone who we had a diagnosis, things got better, and we're always watching it, we're kind of maintaining, but we've moved into a place where we're doing some more mental skills training. And what percentage of your work right now, Carmen, is kind of mental skills based versus more clinical in nature? I would say, you know, we often get asked this question and it's so difficult to determine because I see it as so much as a combination of both. So 20 to 30%, just performance-based, 20 to 30%,

probably more of the mental health and everything's in the middle. Yeah, absolutely. I like that you're suggesting that it's not always one or the other, right? Usually isn't. Yeah, good point. So Carmen, I have a few final questions for you. Do you have a book or resource for the audience that you think would be helpful? Sure. I really like the book Grit. That's a new book that's come out, The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth. In fact, you know, Upside Down Performance, one of the things we're doing is offering a weekly blog on a book that we've chosen to kind of apply our own experiences to. So we wrote four different blogs on this book and just our work with it. So I really liked that book because I think it highlights, you know, as a society,

we tend to get a little bit obsessed with talent. You know, we watch TV, we see these amazing plays, we see these talented performers, and it really just highlights that, you know, there's a lot of hard work that went into that. And until you really are behind the scenes and you can see the work that goes into it, we think it should come easier. So I like the fact that it really highlights hard work. But one of the other reasons I really like it is it sparked a lot of national debate in terms of, you know, teaching grit to children. So there's a lot of education reform that's using it in terms of, you know, can we cultivate grit?

Can we teach these skills when they're young? But then at the same time, we have school systems that, you know, they don't even have the resources to have good educational or, you know, low SES where kids are coming to school and they don't even have, you know, nutrition and safety. You know, when they don't even have good nutrition and safety, are they even able to cultivate grit? It challenged some of the previous scientific findings and, you know, personality research. And is grit just conscientiousness? So that's one of my favorite things about the book is how much debate there is about it. And I think anything

great that comes out that sparks new ideas and sparks people to challenge each other will just spark even more. And so, you know, there's a lot of the book that I like, but I also like that other people have challenged it. Absolutely. And what did you learn as you were studying this and look and writing these blog posts? What did you learn about how great is connected to conscientiousness and is it the same? You know, I, I've barely scratched the surface and all of that. I think one of the things, and I think they're still kind of debating about this, but it's really about like consistency, effort across consistency, you know, across time and how much that takes to kind of nurture that through adversity. And so, for example, you know,

college athletics, I see that happen a lot during transition. So again, you know, you were very good, you got to this next level. And if you hadn't learned how to do that, how to really work hard, take feedback, fail, get back up, it can come as a surprise that that's actually a skill you should have learned. You know, a lot of athletes at the high school level, they may have just been bigger, better, faster. So even if they hadn't really learned the play, even if they hadn't really known what they were supposed to do, their physical skills outweighed everybody else so much that you couldn't tell they didn't

know it. Now they get to this next level and they can't rely on that anymore. And so I see that as a little bit different than conscientiousness, but I've barely scratched the surface on, you know, the comparison between those two. So I wouldn't want to speak out of turn on that. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I also really appreciate the book just, you know, it shows you that you need to continue to work hard, like you mentioned, but that there's going to be adversity and setbacks along the way. And are you, are you committed to your goal in the long term? I think, you know, when I look at the, what are the best athletes do and they are committed and they make the decisions to stay committed. And like some of the things that you talked about, making sure they have people around them that are supportive of their goals

and their dreams. So yeah, great recommendation, Carmen. So tell us a little bit more about your courses. I know you guys just launched those, you and Angie. Tell us about that and how we can learn more information about your courses. All right. So upside down performance dot com is kind of our website, but we also have a Twitter feed, Instagram, Facebook. So I'd

encourage anybody to check out the website, sign up for a weekly blog series or start following us on social media. We're giving away a lot of like little tips, freebie information to help along the way, but the courses just launched this week and the first section is on the academic adjustment. And so we go into a lot of detail about socially, the academic expectations, even down to what NCAA eligibility means, what the different types of classes in college might be. So we go into a lot of detail about what you might expect and how you can find your resources. The second module or the second kind of section of the modules is more on the

mental skills. And so while we're using a lot of the terminology and vocabulary about the transition to college athletics, it's really applicable to athletes of all levels. So we have a section on focus, a section on energy management, a section on confidence. And then finally, we also have a section on goal setting and vision. And we kept that separate too, because again, that can apply to a lot of different populations. Our terminology is focused on college athletes, but everybody's looking for new ways to kind of set their mission statement and to follow their goals.

So we have it broken up into nine different modules. People can buy different packages. We do have a special if you buy the entire course. But we've already learned so many different things we're going to do differently the next time, which is, again, this new challenge that we've had of, you know, get out there and try something, learn from it, make it better. And it's just, it's been an interesting experience for us to apply a lot of the skills that we're teaching others into this new adventure because it's different. It is different and trying new things can be really scary. So yes, yes. Getting out there with your message. And so, you know, the course is for college athletes, but then, you know, there are these other populations who might be interested. So tell us specifically who the course is for.

So we're really marketing towards, you know, the high school and club athletes as they're getting ready to make this adjustments. But it's also for college students. Maybe they've been in there because a lot of campuses, they do have a transition course, but it might be a little bit more focused on what their campus offers or it's not very in-depth. So we're just meaning this to supplement what a lot of other places are doing, or they have somebody on staff who's also doing this. Some campuses, they don't have the resources to have any of this. So this could also supplement what they already have. So athletes that are a little bit more advanced in the college level, you know, some of the information, for example, the academic expectations, that's not something probably they would be interested in.

But the focus, the confidence, the distraction management, the goal setting, you know, the vision, any athlete at any level is going to learn skills that can help them, you know, better understand their mentality against sport. Yeah. And what I love, Carmen, is just the holistic perspective that you're taking, that it's not just, you know, mental skills that are important for athletes to transition well, but it's all these other components that you mentioned. So pretty awesome. When I look at the website, it's really amazing what you guys have put together and just the detail of what you've done here. So again, UpsideDownPerformance.com. Tell us how we could reach out to you. Let's say, you know, people are on social media. What's the best way that we can

tweet at you or connect with you, Carmen? Well, follow us, send us any ideas you have for the course. If there's something particular, a blog that you found interesting, we'd love to hear your feedback. You know, we definitely want to interact with our audience a little bit more. We're just starting off. So send us an email. Introduce yourselves. And then obviously buy the course and tell us what you like. Tell us what you didn't like.

This is going to be a long-term project for us where we're always trying to improve what we're doing. So the more feedback we get, the better. That's awesome. And your handles and your email. So give us your email and then where you are at on social media, on Twitter, for example, or Facebook. So it's all Upside Down Performance. So for Twitter, at Upside Down Performance, same thing with Instagram. And then it's UpsideDownPerformance, same thing with Instagram. And then it's UpsideDownPerformance at gmail.com. Awesome. You know, Carmen, you have given us so much valuable insight and information today. What kind of final advice do you have for those people who are listening who really want to be at their best more often? You know, I think again, you know, just my transition the past two years, it was so good for me to just broaden my perspective and think about how things can be great, even

if it's not what I thought they were going to look like. And so I think anytime we take that approach and we're open to all the new relationships, all the new information, you know, what can this experience give for me? We tend to be more aware when those opportunities actually do come to us. If we stay, you know, pretty narrow-minded in terms of this is the way it's supposed to go, we can get pretty frustrated. Absolutely. So be open to new experiences. Yes, absolutely. New things getting out of your comfort zone. You know, Carmen, I just want to thank you so much for sharing some valuable information today on the podcast and for being such a great role model in the field and getting

out there with your course. And I want to also share with you just a few things that I thought were really kind of stand out from our interview today. I liked like you're really your holistic approach to performance that, you know, it's who they are as a person, who they're surrounding themselves with. It's not just these, you not just these mental skills that we might teach them. I also love what you talked about related to the energy zone and your go zone and helping people figure that out. Having people think about their board of directors and how are they building relationships and really being deliberate with their relationships and enjoyed our discussion about grit as well.

And I really encourage people to head over to UpsideDownPerformance.com. Carmen, I've been reading your blogs, and they're awesome. And I love how you guys have chosen these different books to provide an overview of. Grit, one of them you said, The Mindful Athlete by George Mugford. And then I saw Ryan Holiday's book. So I definitely encourage people to head over to UpsideDownPerformance.com. Thank you, Sindra. I appreciate it.

This has been fun. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you like today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend, and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.

Hi, Sindra here again. Thank you so much for joining me for Carmen's interview. Just for being a high performance mindset listener, you can get 25% off of all of their courses over at UpsideDownPerformance.com with the coupon code TRANSITIONS. Now, if you are a high school athlete or a college athlete and you want to gain more control over the mental game, help you capitalize in the moment, this is the course for you. Or if you're a parent and you know that your student athlete, your son or daughter could gain more control over the mental game and you could help them transition to college athletics more effectively with this course so again the course is full of practical strategies mental skills

training academic skills you can learn at your own pace and to help you prepare for the moment again head over to upside down performance.com and use the coupon code transitions for 25 off