High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 150: Working on the Edge of Your Capacity with Brian Miles, Mental Performance Coordinator for the Cleveland Indians

Episode Date: January 2, 2018

Brian Miles recently transitioned into the role of Mental Performance Coordinator for the Cleveland Indians after being a Mental Performance Coach for their minor leagues for the past two and a half years. In his role with the Indians, Brian works to enhance the mental and emotional development of players, and works to ensure collaboration of the mental domain amongst other disciplines within the organization. Prior to joining the Indians, Brian worked for the United States Army as part of the Comprehensive Soldier and Family Fitness Program both at Fort Bliss (TX) and Fort Drum (NY). Brian received his Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Montclair State University, NJ where he played four years of college soccer. He then received his Master of Education in Psychology: Athletic Counseling from Springfield College, MA along with a Certificate of Advanced Graduate Study in Clinical Mental Health.  In this interview, Brian and Cindra talk about: What separates the world’s best What it means to work on the edge of your capacity How and why to take the ego out of your work How acceptance and then moving on is key to staying in the present moment Why routines lead to consistency How the best approach obstacles You can find a full description of the Podcast and contact information for Brian at cindrakamphoff.com/brian.

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff, author of Beyond Grit, 10 Powerful Practices to Gain the High Performing Edge. And I'm excited that you're here today joining us, ready to listen to Brian Miles. And guess what? I know you're going to love this one. I really enjoyed talking to Brian last week and I'm excited to post it here on the podcast.

Now, before I get into the interview and introducing Brian to you, I'd love to go over to iTunes and read a rating and review. And this one is from Tim. Tim says, big value. Love the show. I'm a psychologist and mental skills coach who also works with professional athletes. And I really appreciate the value that Sindra brings and the value of the High Performance Mindset podcast. I highly recommend this show for anyone looking to improve mindset. Thank you so much, Tim, for going over there and giving us a rating and review. Now, if you enjoyed this episode with Brian, or if you tune into the podcast regularly, if I could just ask for one small favor to head over to iTunes, or if you're listening on Stitcher Radio, you can do the same. And you can head over there and click, give us a rating and give us some

comments over there so we know how we're doing and we know what you want more of and what you like. Now, the great thing about if you have an iPhone and you're listening on the iPhone, all you have to do is pull up the High Performance Mindset podcast on your podcast icon and there's a great way right there just to give us a rating on your phone

right when you pull up the podcast. So I just realized that on my new iPhone, the new update, and pretty psyched that it's so easy. All right, that would be awesome if you could head over to iTunes or on such a radio if you're listening there. So let me tell you a little bit about Brian Miles. So he recently transitioned into the role of mental performance coordinator for the Cleveland Indians after being a mental performance coach for the minor leagues for two and a half years. Now, in his role with the Indians, Brian works to enhance the mental and emotional development of players, and he works to ensure collaboration of the mental domain among all the other disciplines within the organization. So prior to joining the Cleveland Indians, Brian worked for the United States Army as part of the Comprehensive Soldier and Family Fitness Program, both in Texas and New York. Brian received his Bachelor's of Arts in Psychology, and he also played four years of college soccer. He then received his Master's of Education in

Psychology Athletic Counseling from Springfield College, along with a Certificate of Advanced Graduate Study in Clinical Mental Health. So there's lots of things that we talk about in this interview. I love just getting to know Brian and learning more about his work and talking high performance and mindset on the podcast. And so here's a few things that we talked about. We talked about what he sees that separates the world's best from a mental standpoint. He talked about what it actually means to work on the edge of your capacity, which is one of my favorite quotes from the podcast. He talked about how and why we need to take our ego out of our work, how acceptance and then moving on is the

key to staying in the present moment, why routines lead to consistency, and then how the best approach obstacles. We talk about just the concept of how the obstacle is the way. Now, there's two quotes that I'd like to share with you that were my favorite, and you can just kind of listen for these as you're listening to the interview. So I loved how he talked about how the best are excellent separators. And he says they see baseball as what they do, not who they are. And then he says something like this, that the ego is something we all struggle with. But the best say I might fail and look stupid, but I can laugh it off because I know I'll be smarter tomorrow because of it. I know you'll enjoy today's

interview and after the interview you can head over to Twitter and join the discussion. You can tag myself at mentally underscore strong and Brian at Brian C Miles. All right without further ado let's bring on Brian. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Cyndra Campoff, and I'm excited today to have us joined by Brian Miles, the Mental Performance Coordinator of the Cleveland Indians. Brian, thank you so much for being here today to share your wisdom with the listeners. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I look forward to talking to you more about your position and your perspective of high performance and the mindset and the psychology of high performance. So just to kind of get us started, Brian, tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do right now.

So, you know, I've realized, I think, from what I consider to be like a very short time in this field, that my passion is really about people. And it's working in this field is a great opportunity to interact with quite different groups of people. And I think in baseball, you get, you get the opportunity to work with people from different cultures, different age groups, different experiences. You know, and I think a lot of times we often think about the players and yeah, the players range from 18 to 30 years old. But then when I start to think about the coaching staff and everyone like that, you really get to learn a lot about experiences of things that people have gone

through. And I feel like we get educated a lot. We get to learn every single day. And so from a passion standpoint, you know, you get to interact with people all the time, which is awesome and exciting. And then you get put in this environment where you constantly learn every day and you get pushed sort of to work on the edge of your capacity. And I mean, how cool of an experience is that, that, you know, we're yearning and we're excited to help players and coaches, staff get on the edge of their capacity, but yet we get to be that person every single day too, just based on the environment that we're in. So there's no doubt that the passion for people and learning certainly gets used every single day. So it's pretty awesome, exciting. No, that sounds great, Brian. I like what you said about working towards the edge of your capacity. And I think about myself and how actually that's like so exciting and kind of stimulating

when I do that. Tell us kind of how that plays out for you in your position and, you know, how maybe you can relate it to us, what that really means of like working on the edge of your capacity. Absolutely. You know, I think sometimes we, we get lulled into wanting to be somewhere that is comfortable for us, you know? And so for, for myself, um, you know, prior to working into baseball, I worked with the military for a couple of years, uh, had no, you know, no one in my family was in the military, kind of had no

understanding of what that looked like. And to be thrusted into that environment was really uncomfortable for me. One, because of like, obviously how much I appreciate what those men and women do and because of how valuable they are. And I had this sense of like, wow, I'm really uncomfortable kind of being in this environment. And all of a sudden, I just found this excitement with that and wanting to learn and listen and ask questions. And so as I transitioned over into baseball, you know, I played a little bit of baseball growing up, but you know, I was a soccer guy, played college soccer. And so I never really understood the culture of baseball and really never understood the intricacies of the game. And so I found myself living with this tension of, of being a little bit outside of that comfort zone.

And I found the, this, this excitingness to the tension. Like I was like, I almost enjoyed it a little bit. Um, and you know, it was a lot of questions. And it was a lot of, you know, what are the players already know? What are they learning about? What are the coaches know? I mean, you know, before mental performance consultants in baseball, a lot of times it was the coaches who were doing the mental side of the game. And so how much valuable experience do they have that I could learn from them? And part of that is just being willing to learn, taking your ego out of it and just being, you know, kind of a white belt mentality of I'm going to learn every single day.

But you got to be comfortable with that tension. And I found in these opportunities that I was experiencing that I kind of liked the tension. Yeah, I feel similar. What I like what you're saying, Brian, is it all about growth mindset and just continuing to push your comfort zone and also asking really good questions and being curious.

And I could imagine that really helps you grow in your position and allows you to better connect with the athletes and coaches that you work with. Absolutely. I think those well-placed questions are, are obviously important and, you know, obviously people want to know that, you know, what you're talking about and that, you know, what you're doing, but I found like the context and the environment is so important. If you don't have that, you know, people won't want to listen to you if you're not willing to listen

back. And so I've found that those, those questions and the times you ask them and, and, and, and having a little bit of that feel and that social intelligence and awareness of like the right person to ask it to, um, that's not always easy. I think, you know, I think sometimes people just think it's a knack that you have, but I do think there's a learning component to that. Um, and you know, once you figure that out though, it's, it's really exciting to, to see how open other component to that. And, you know, once you figure that out, though, it's, it's really exciting to see how open other people are, too. And I think that's what, what keeps you going. For sure. Well, tell us a little bit about, you know, what you do for the Indians and a little bit about how you got there. Absolutely. So I'm transitioning into a

new role this year as the mental performance coordinator. Previous to this for about two and a half seasons, I was a mental performance coach working primarily with some of our minor league teams from AA down to about low A. And I'm really lucky that I get to work in a team of mental performance coaches, you know, so having that opportunity to, you know, ask questions and be in an environment where we're all learning from each other and we have a support system is, is really something that I value and that we're very lucky here at the Indians to have. So, you know, my role really was to help sort of the mental and emotional development of our players and our staff

at these specific three levels. And so, you know, that looked like a lot of travel and a lot of spending time and growing relationships with these players, a lot of focus on meeting them where they're at, not trying to, you know, instill or push things on players. I feel like a lot of times, sometimes as mental performance consultants, we can have this urge to want to fix or like be an impact person immediately. And I realized, especially when I got here, that stepping back and identifying where the player is at, meeting them where they are, and then cultivating and building that relationship with them to,

you know, slowly move in a direction that is going to benefit them on the field was really important. And so, you know, that takes time. I think if an organization is willing to invest in somebody in the sports psychology field, recognizing that it's going to take time for them to build those relationships and earn that trust and the respect from the people that they're working with is really important. And, you know, luckily for me, I had, you know, I had two people here before me that were blazing that trail for me and, you know, Dr. Charlie Marr and CeCe Clark. And so, you know, I came into an organization that really valued the mental side of the game. And so it was excellent that, you know, we were just able to step in and do that. And so I spent

a lot of my time with the players, a lot of my time with the coaching staff. I do a little bit of scouting work here and there, assessing the makeup of players. But, you know, really, it's about building relationships, being there as a support system, and then most importantly, I think, being proactive. You know, people ask you to describe what you do, and we sometimes will say, you know, hey, we're a strength and conditioning coach for your mind. You know, you lift every single day in the gym. You go and hit in the cage every single day. You stretch every single day. You know, can we find a way that you're getting a mental rep in every single day, just like any other, you know, physical aspect of your game or fundamental side of your

game. So it's been an absolutely incredible experience. And this year, it's a little bit more transitioning into coordinating the mental skills. And that involves a lot more of the interdisciplinary component to it of how the mental side of the game is interacting with strength and conditioning with the medical, with the fundamental coaches and coordinators, and finding ways so that we can all work towards one common goal with those athletes. It's pretty awesome that you guys have such a unique team there who's really, you know, working together to build the mindset of the athletes that you work with. Brian, when you think about, you know, your responsibilities, the mental and emotional development of players and staff, you know, what would you say is like central to your practice

of sports ecology and helping athletes and coaches with the mental and emotional development? So I would say, you know, something that's, I think, central to it is, you know, what obviously I've talked about establishing the trust in the relationship. And I think part of it too is, you know, recognizing that there is like a component of the results. And I know that sometimes we're not supposed to say that, but, you know, in a game like baseball where the results are there every single day and it's posted on a big screen, you know, we're dealing with that as much as the players are too, because that's something that for them is like visceral. Like they see it up on the screen and they see it up on the scoreboard every single day and they get text messages from family and friends about it. And so part of that is, I think, empathizing with the athlete

for that and starting to work towards that idea of acceptance. And, you know, when we're looking towards the idea of them being accepting of what's going on, I think part of it is just being able to understand that you might be in a situation that is uncomfortable. You might be in a situation that you aren't particularly enjoying. And being able to accept that, kind of see the red stop sign or the red stoplight and stop for a second, accept where you are at. And then really for us, it's about moving. And so for me, it's constantly talking to players and to coaching staff about how can we move just a little bit about how can we move just a

little bit? How can we get just a little bit further? And a lot of that is using creativity or, you know, allowing them to find something tangible to hold on to. And it's about gaining little inches, little wins every single day. And the hard part is, is, you know, you might not see that or feel that, or even think about that after one day of just like that little inch that you moved. And obviously, over the course of a full season, that adds up. And I think that's really powerful. The hard part is, is that, you know, when you go to the gym one day, and you lift a new muscle, what do you feel the next day, you feel sore. And you're like, okay, in my brain, wow, I feel sore. So I was obviously working something right. Sometimes, you know, players

don't see that or feel that per se. And so, you know, finding ways to be creative and work through those things with them, I think is really essential to what we do. And also just being aware that, you know, they're playing a game and they kind of have these external distractors, these external things, stimuli always pulling at them and being able to work through that with them is really important. For sure. And I think about baseball, it's such a long season that it can really be difficult to stay motivated the whole time and burnout can happen. So, you know, just by taking it sort of like one inch at a time and improvement, I could see that that helps them stay focused on the more positive than, you know, how long the season is or how tired they are. Absolutely. You know, I think, and for them too, I mean, having that, having a clear goal and

clear kind of set in mind is very important. You know, they're, they're constantly, you know, talking about, you know, what is their fundamental goal? What are they working on with hitting or their delivery and pitching? And I think for us, you know, having a mental goal is something that's actually really important. And having that and having that thing to continuously come back to and work on, and having them working on it with their coaches and the staff and things like that, too, I think gives them that clear focus, that kind of grounding point to come back to every single day. And perhaps, you know, obviously what we know about goal setting too, like allowing you to see progress, maybe, you know, celebrating the small wins. And so I think having that clear set and that clear mind of what is the mental goal that we're going to work on or the mental plan we're going to work

on can be really important too. Can you give us an example of like a mental goal or a mental plan that a player has had? Yeah, I mean, I can give you an idea of sort of something that we might be working on just overarchingly with the players, you know, part of that idea, a little bit of the acceptance component to it is about, you know, keeping our mind in the present moment. And so if we recognize that perhaps a player struggles to keep their mind present in the moment after something happens. So if you're a pitcher, you think you make a pretty good pitch,

but the umpire calls it a ball and you walk the guy, right? So you might have a lot of things going through your mind at that time, perhaps emotions of frustration and anger. Maybe you're saying some things, maybe your body language isn't that great. And you're recognizing that perhaps you're starting to lose kind of composure and you're losing, you know, your present focus at that time. So if you're recognizing that your

mind is out of the moment, for us, you know, the goal would be to find a strategy or a way to help that player regain control of what they can control in that moment. And so part of that is helping them have the self-awareness and understanding of, you know, I'm starting to lose control. And so guys tend to know, guys tend to know when they start to tense up, or they tend to know when those kind of emotions start to impact their ability to play. And so for maybe it's a guy, he steps off the rubber, you know, he kind of walks towards the back, he identifies some sort of, you know, kinesthetic cue that he uses, maybe he takes his glove off and shakes his hand out, because he's shaking off that last pitch, puts his glove back on, and then resets and re engages, you know, and for us, it's about finding consistency with the

athlete doing that. And then obviously following up and reflecting with them on it. You know, because it's very easy for them to say, yeah, this is a great goal. It's a great way to do it. But then when it comes time to actually implement it on the field, when something like that's happening, it can sometimes be difficult in the heat of the moment, you know, when you're playing. And so us being there and traveling with the teams and seeing them play can oftentimes be a great reminder and a great opportunity to reflect on those things with the players. Absolutely. So I like the idea of like the individual mental goal and plan. You've also talked about like acceptance, not fighting what's happening, right, but accepting what's going on and regaining control of yourself.

You know, Brian, when you think about your practice of sports psychology, is there any other topics, you know, that are central to just how you practice? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think a really important component, and I found this to really play out in baseball, was the idea of just overarchingly routines. And I think you hear that a lot in baseball players talking about themselves and any mental performance consultants or coaches that are working with baseball players. I feel like I've gotten schooled a little bit over the past two and a half years of digging deeper onto what it means to have a routine and the idea and importance behind it. And I think one of the big parts about how we practice that now, or at least how, you know, I look at it is players will typically do something, you know, if somebody asked them to do it. And so if you ask the coach to develop a routine for a player, and then that coach tells it to the player, chances are he'll probably do it because the coach is telling him to. I think a big part of what I've learned, especially from CeCe and from Dr. Marr, is just that understanding the why behind it is probably

one of the most important things. Because if the player doesn't understand the why behind what they're doing on a consistent daily basis that leads them into the best opportunity to be successful in the field, then I don't think it will stick. I don't think it will have the exact same meaning it possibly could. So, you know, I think growing up and, and, and thinking about, you know, even ourselves as athletes, like, oh yeah, we do the same thing every day. And every time we're going to play, because, you know, it just, it gets us ready, but we don't actually know why it's getting us ready. So I started to develop that, that yearning and that, that really kind of questioning now to a player of like, why are you doing that? Like, what does that do for you?

And you start to peel back the onion layers about how that preparation is helping them get prepared. You know, and I find it with our older players that they start to understand it a lot more and they start to streamline their routines a lot more. It's not so, you know, lot more. It's not so scattered. It's very specific with what they're doing for a very specific reason. And I think the biggest thing is like, it's not sexy stuff that they're doing, right? For a lot of them, it's tedious.

It's annoying. It maybe doesn't feel good. Maybe it's time consuming, but they understand the why and the purpose behind it. And that's exciting because that's the thing that they can fall back on every single time. Because if they go out and play that day and they get beat, they know that they were as prepared as possible and they just got beat that day. That's a lot easier to come back the next day and play again than if you were like, oh, I forgot to do this.

So that's probably why it happens. And all of a sudden, our mind is making these excuses, which we know our mind's really good at doing. And you have that questioning. Whereas a player who understands their why and what they're doing with their routines, they know that, hey, I just got beat that day. Or hey, maybe it wasn't my day. But I did everything I could to prepare. So I feel like we empower the athlete a lot more when we do that.

Absolutely. And then they can stay confident despite the outcome, right? That they know they gave their best in the preparation. Brian, can you give us an example of maybe somebody who, you know, it was doing a routine that they didn't really know why there's kind of going through the motions and then how being more aware of the reason that they did what they did really helped them and perhaps maybe enhance their game or enhance their ability to stay in the present absolutely um you know i think i think something we see a lot you know i think a standard thing that um baseball players do is they take batting practice every day uh you know where they they go out and they they get into groups of four and you know there's a coach throwing to them um you know not super fast and and they're hitting the ball and they're kind

of doing well and i think what we've seen is that a lot of times athletes that come from high school and then sometimes college too um they look at batting practice as just you know i'm just getting comfortable seeing the ball hitting the ball and kind of, you know, feeling it out. And what's something that I'm really excited about with some of our coaches and especially our front office player development group is that having the intent behind what you're doing in batting practice or having the understanding of what you're doing. So it's not just I'm going to try to hit home runs off every pitch, but it's about having an approach with what you're doing. So I'm going to, you know, I'm envisioning that there's a runner on second base and I want to move them over to third base. So now I'm specifically trying to do something with this one pitch that I get versus I'm just swinging to swing. So it creates a purpose and a thoughtfulness behind each pitch they get from the coach. And it's not just I'm out there for 20 minutes, just swinging to swing. There's a purpose behind that routine of what they're doing in batting practice, which replicates the game, right? You know, it's just, it's replicating scenarios and situations in the

game, which for them transition and translate over to when they're in that situations in the game, which for them transition and translate over to when they're in that opportunity in the game, you know, in the eighth inning and they got to move a runner over. They've already done there. They've been that. They've experienced it, you know, earlier that day. Absolutely. And they're just not going through the motions at batting practice, but really being intentional with their mental prep. You know, Brian, when you think about some of the best athletes that you've, you know, Brian, when you think about some of the best athletes that you, you know, witness that you've been around that you've worked with, what do you think kind of separates them from maybe average athletes? Or, you know, what do you think separates the really good ones mentally from, from the ones that don't necessarily stay in the league

or, you know, that don't thrive? It's a really great question. It seems like the athletes that tend to be pretty successful, and I think, you know, I think I saw this when working for the military as well, there was such a yearning for learning and growth from those individuals and an excitement every single day to want to show up and work hard. And, you know, it's something that you see and that is almost tangible and palpable. Like when they come out into the field, you know, their energy and their excitement is there. And I think that's definitely one part of it. I think another part of it is just their attention to detail and really being able to, to separate and to be able to, to separate the external stimuli that's coming in and all the different, you know, voices that they're hearing on a daily basis. And

when they, when they come to the ballpark, they leave all of that at the door and they're excellent separators. They're really good at understanding, you know, that, that baseball is what they do. It's not who they are and that they're able to, you know, not take that stuff home with them. And, and they're not bringing their stuff from home into the ballpark either and so I feel like the people that can separate tend to do pretty well because they're not taking you know an ego hit every single time that they don't have a good game and so I think that part of it is really important um you know and I know we talk all the time about just a growth mindset, but it's,

it's just so real, you know, players that can look at this challenge that they're facing, and just see it as an opportunity and excitement. It's, it's really impressive, you know, their, their ability to, like I talked about earlier, handle the tension of being uncomfortable, and the tension of like possibly looking stupid because they're trying something new or because they're going to go out and, you know, do a new drill, their ability to live with that tension and almost invite it is certainly something that pushes them to the next level. You know, and Brian, I've heard you say taking the ego out of it or, you know, not taking like your head on your ego when perhaps the media or fans,

you know, trash you. Tell us about like what you think about the role of that, like in terms of, because when you, when you're describing that, you know, how the best athletes kind of, how their mindset operates, like they're willing to take risks. They're willing to get uncomfortable. They're really willing to ask questions and be curious and this excitement. So my sense is their ego isn't very big. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, listen, I think even as people, the ego is something that we all struggle with. I mean, think about how many times even for us as practitioners, like we've, we've not put ourselves in a situation where we might fail because we're afraid of how it might make

us look. We've all done it before. We've all done it before. And so, you know, it's, it's not even just baseball players, but it's the hard part is like, you know, when I make a mistake, you know, in, in my, in an office or something like that, like I'm the only one that knows I made that mistake. If a player makes a mistake, unfortunately, it's sometimes on tv or if you know you're in the minor leagues like there are a lot of people that see it it gets written in a report or something like that you know you have to be willing to i think look at it big picture wise too and recognize you know i mean baseball is such a long season and so you know for these minor league guys that are playing 155 games i mean that's you know you're playing every these minor league guys that are playing 155 games, I mean, that's, you know, you're playing every day. And so recognizing that you'll have another chance tomorrow is super important. But there is a component of the players that are successful tend to look at things as opportunities. It's like, so this is not an opportunity for my ego to get hurt. Like I might fail and I might look a little silly. I might even look stupid, but they recognize that. And

almost like, I mean, they're the, they're the guy that can laugh it off because they realize that they just took stock of what happened and they just got a little bit smarter for tomorrow. Like, you know, and, and they're the guys that can joke about that because they recognize that they just, you know, they just added another bullet for what tomorrow is going to bring, because of what they just learned. And we all have those opportunities to do that. I think we just, we shy away from those situations. An interesting part, too, is like, I mean, how much ego plays into confidence too like if we continuously shy away from those situations we probably won't grow but the second we decide okay i'm going to take a risk and i'm going to do this this one thing that makes me really uncomfortable well

if you're successful you know how much how much more excited are you to take perhaps more risk it's almost all compounding on top of each other, but it's about taking that first step and that first risk to, yeah. And you might fail and you might bruise your ego a little bit, but you know, as soon as you recognize that, oh wow, like the next day, everything's the same, I'm okay. What did I learn from it? You know, what, like, what, what can I take from that to make myself better tomorrow? That's, I mean, that's the ultimate thing. Like, I mean, if you could fail once every day and learn something, I would take that over being successful every day and not learning anything. That's super good. Well, I think maybe the book that really helped me get more awareness of the ego is Ryan Holiday's book, The Ego is the Enemy. So it's made me really think

a lot about like my ego and how it holds me back. You know, Brian, what you're talking about related to being willing to fail and getting uncomfortable and, you know, taking your ego out of it. How do you think that we can teach that as mental performance coordinators or coaches or consultants? That's a really great question. It's certainly something that I think about a lot. I think our team here thinks about a lot. One thing I think is working, so I think working actually with the coaching staffs that we're working with to create environments that make the players uncomfortable. So doing the drill that is just on the edge, if not pushed past a little bit of the edge of what the player is capable of, where there is innate failure, and reflecting on it with that player about how they felt about it.

Because I think you can learn a lot when you have a proper debrief and a proper reflection after a drill. I think sometimes that can be missed by coaches. And I know when I used to coach soccer, I missed it a lot too. It's like, oh, I got to move on to the next drill. I got to that can be missed by coaches. And I know, you know, when I used to coach soccer, I missed it a lot too. It's like, oh, I got to move on to the next drill. I got to move on to the next thing. So if you take some time to reflect with the athlete about what they experienced, what they learned from it, I think you start to get a little bit more at that idea of like, hey, wow, you know, I just failed a couple of times, but this is what I just learned. Okay. So the next time that this

drill happens, this is maybe how I'll combat that and get through that. So, you know, I'm, I think growing up, you know, being outdoors all the time and then in grad school, having a lot of opportunities to do experiential education, firm believer over here about we learn best by doing. And so if we can let the athletes do something and let them learn from the doing, and then maybe we reflect with the coaching staff on it, I think that's the opportunity for players to really have that visceral reaction, that visceral experience of the failure, and then let them talk through that. What does that feel like? Why did it feel like that? And most importantly, what am I going to do tomorrow if we do this drill again to be a

little bit better? Absolutely. And I go back to what you said at the beginning of the interview is, you know, working to be at the edge of your capacity and just having that as a focus every day. When you're talking about debriefing, Brian, do you think that, you know, would you encourage coaches to do that like at practice with the whole team with the whole team after the drill where they push themselves? Or do you think that's better more individually so the athlete gains more awareness of what's their reaction in that moment? I think there's certainly opportunities for both, honestly. Typically, you're working in smaller groups in baseball, So you might be working with just the infielders. Maybe you're working with just the first baseman, just the outfielders.

And so I think in that small group, the players feel pretty safe to want to reflect. I think there's definitely opportunities to reflect individually with athletes. And, you know, even just looking at situations that they experienced in a game or even practice and just saying like, what were you thinking right there? This is what I noticed with your body language. Like, what do you think that portrays to the other team or to your teammates? Sometimes, you know, it's difficult because people don't see it. And I mean, we're lucky that we have video of everything. So there's always video and sometimes videotaping things is really unique as a player might not

remember or might not know what they look like or might not realize their reaction or might not even even see how close they were getting to that drill that was supposed to be really hard for them really difficult and they see themselves being successful so I think sometimes even utilizing video could be a great opportunity as a reflection tool or a debrief tool. I like the examples that you're providing of like coaches, you know, empowering coaches to push athletes to be uncomfortable. I'm also thinking about like, you know, people who aren't necessarily in baseball. And it could could also be like as a leader pushing your your, you know, staff under you to to just get out of their comfort zone and push to their capacity every day. You know how, Brian, you were saying that your new job is to coordinate more with the coaches and the strength and conditioning coordinators, maybe the athletic trainers. Tell us how you see

like that moving forward in terms of the field of sports psychology. Do you see us doing that more often? And how do you kind of see that working? I certainly hope we do that more often. It's such an untapped potential at this point about how much overlap and collaboration there could be between all the different departments when you're really looking at a performance team or performance culture. You know, I mean, even this year, you know, we had an intern, her name was Sydney, and she kind of took a focus on our rehab group, on the guys that were out in Arizona by themselves, you know, imagery scripts for healing and specific imagery scripts for going into their surgeries for Tommy John. It's like, if we weren't working with the rehab group out there, the trainers out there, you know, we would have never really known what was going on. And then you look at strength, you know, camps and strength coaches

and performance coaches, like lifting a heavy weight, that's a performance. There's a mental component to that. There's a component of, I'm going literally out of my comfort zone to lift a weight I've never lifted before. Like, what are you thinking about before that? Are you putting your body and your emotions in the right spot to be able to do that? I think there's just so much collaboration that could happen. And I'm, I'm obviously super excited about it. And I think there are definitely some organizations and there are some, you know, entities that are doing this really well. And I'm excited to just continuously look at, you know, how can the mental side of the game

impact all these different domains? And, you know, obviously, you know, the psychology of injury and psychology of rehab is really important. And I think in baseball, that's certainly something that's becoming a lot more prevalent too. For sure. When I look back at the things that you've already mentioned about your practice of sports psychology, you know, just the importance of accepting and then moving on. You talked about routines to help you stay in the present, kind of this idea of growth mindset and taking the ego out of it. You know, do you have any other maybe a signature technique or any other topics that you know, you usually

talk with the athletes that you work with related to or about? Yeah, absolutely. So part of this, it ties a little bit into the acceptance part of it. But it was interesting, you mentioned, you know, Ryan Holiday, I've been being pushed to read The Obstacle is the Way for a long time, I finally got down to reading it. And one of the parts that he talks about in that book that I've found utilizing with players very recently, is part of that idea of, of a challenge or an obstacle in your way and how we face that. And so, you know, the example is the idea that if you know, if right now I knock down a player and pinned him to the ground, you know, the example is the idea that if, you know, if right now I knocked down a player and pinned him to the ground, you know, how would he respond? So if I'm completely

on top of him, all of my body weights on top of him, how would he respond? Is there, is there panic? Is there fear? Is there frustration? Is there anger? Is there, you know, what's going on in his mind? And chances are, if he wanted to get me off of him, he's going to push me with all of his strength. And the problem is that it won't work. You know, my body weight is on top of him. And I have, you know, I can keep his shoulders down to the ground with really little effort. And so what will happen is he keeps pushing and pushing and pushing. And he's just going to get really tired and exhausted.

Because what he's doing is basically the opposite of the process. You know, he's just trying to move the obstacle. But he's not is basically the opposite of the process. You know, he's, he's just trying to move the obstacle, but he's not engaging in the process. And so when I've talked to the athletes, I'm like, listen, you know, there's an easier way. One, don't panic. Conserve your energy when you face this obstacle, because I think our first reaction is to panic. And then the focus is to, to, to not let it get worse, obviously. And it's not thinking about like, oh, this is to to not let it get worse obviously and it's not thinking about like oh this is going to be okay it's going to be fine it's like no what can i do to remedy this situation yes this situation stinks like i don't want somebody pinning me down but what can i do to remedy this

and and part of it is just moving that little bit i know we talked about moving inches before but it's like okay if i don panic, if I focus on not letting it get worse, what can I do? And so part of that is bracing and finding ways to get some breathing room, you know? So in the example of me pinning him down, perhaps it's him lifting his arm up and grabbing, you know, my shirt on my shoulder. And as he pushes me back a little bit, he uses his other hand and pushes my hips. And so I'm probably not going to go flying off of him, but what will happen is I'll probably end up getting moved back an inch or two. And then what does he do?

He pushes my other hip and I move back a little bit more. And then maybe the person who I'm pinning down starts to kind of squirm a little bit or shrimp a little bit and move and move and move. And so, you know, I've talked to players about, it's not like, the idea sometimes is like, oh, I'm trapped now. Like I'm trapped by this obstacle about, it's not like the idea sometimes like I'm trapped now, like I'm trapped by this obstacle, but it's not, it's just, you're in a, you're in a position that is, is not comfortable. You are in a position that, you know, is unfortunate, but it's not your fate. You know, you can address it by eliminating each part of that small situation with these deliberate

actions. And part of it is being creative. Part of it is being, you know, what can I control? How can I use some urgency, some creativity to kind of get myself back to where I want to be? And it's all about gaining, you know, like those little inch by inch by inch spaces, take back control over the process and control of what we're doing. And so I've found that by explaining that to athletes, they don't see these obstacles so much as these things that are their fate. They see it as, okay, this is a obstacle. Roger that. How can I squirm and shrimp and move and challenge and use creativity to get a little bit out of there and then drive on and kind of get back to the process? And can you give us an

example, Brian, of some actual situations maybe in baseball where they notice the obstacle or maybe even in their lives because, you know, what happens in their lives and the stress they experience in their lives ends up impacting their performance on the field. So tell us a bit more about that. I like the idea of identifying the obstacle but not pushing against it, accepting it, like what you're saying, and then focus on the process and being creative. Absolutely. You know, I think, I mean, a big one, obviously,

is players that are injured. You know, Tommy John surgery is prevalent in a lot of pitchers and some position players. You know, the so-called fate of that is 15 months, you know, outside of your sport, outside of the game. And it's been really interesting to watch some of our players attack that. They literally attack the surgery and they don't let it define them or define their fate. So, you know,

you're really talking about a player missing an entire season. That can be an obstacle that definitely feels like you're getting pinned down. And so for us, the little inches are these little increment wins that they get to do. So perhaps the first one is just getting your arm above your head, right? That's like a little inch. And then maybe the second one is being able to do, you know, a slight rotation with your arm, maybe four or five times. And as they get closer and closer, you know, when they're four or five months out, it is, you know, it is throwing a ball,

but then it becomes the challenge of, of being honest with the rehab group, you know, being honest about your pain level, being honest about, you honest about where you're at. We have some really tough guys, some guys who just want to blow through the recovery process, but it's about being able to sustain it and get there for the long time. So yeah, I'm throwing from 30 feet. Okay, great. So I threw from 30 feet for seven days and now I'm throwing from 40 feet. you know, for the normal person, 10 feet might not seem like a big deal, but in the process of that person going through their recovery, man, that 10 feet is, is that person pushing on my hips that I had them pinned down and gaining two inches that they can squirm a little bit more, you know? So I think for them, it's, you know,

not looking at it, like I said, not looking at it, like it's your fate. And it can feel very much like that the day you get told that you have to have surgery. And I know that a lot of athletes out there feel that way too. I know in other sports, it's the ACL, but you know, there's a lot of people out there that I'm sure feel that way. And it's about identifying, all right, you know, what can I control? And then how can I get back to the process? Like, give me a little bit of breathing room and let me get back to the process. Excellent, Brian. I could see how like, as people are listening, maybe their obstacle isn't Tommy John surgery or an injury, but it might be something where, you know, they're applying for a job and they, you know, didn't get an interview. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, we all experience obstacles and I like the idea of like the obstacle is the way that's where you're going to learn and you're, you're going to grow. And you've given us some really like tangible strategies on, on what we need to do is, is be creative and focus on what we can control and then, you know, get our attention back to the process, like the next step, the next win that we can make, even if it's just inches. Absolutely. Brian, you know, one of the questions I ask everybody, which is one of my favorite questions to ask, is about a time you failed and what you learned from it. And why I think that's really powerful is, you know, based on our conversation today, just the importance of

having a growth mindset and taking the ego out of it. And I'd love for you to share an example of, you know, a time that you failed, you know, how did that failure shape you today? And what can we learn from from your failure to help us grow? Absolutely. Ironically, my failure has quite a bit to do with ego. So I think it plays in perfectly, you know. As I mentioned before, I was really lucky to get an opportunity to work for the Army program when I when I ended up graduating from grad school. And so I got to meet some pretty exceptional mental performance consultants while I was working there. One of those people was my current colleague, Cece, and I got a chance to meet her at the ASK Conference in New Orleans. Cece was working for special forces i was working

out at fort bliss in el paso texas um it was my first time meeting cc but we ended up getting on pretty well you know she we had a lot of the same kind of mindset and similarities and excitement about about learning and growing i was really captivated just about watching her present and kind of the way that she talked through things. And so, you know, I just mentioned to her, like, hey, you know, I'd love to learn more about what you do. If there's ever an opportunity, you know, I'd love to throw my name to the hat. I guess, you know, to my surprise, I got a phone call from her a couple weeks later saying that they had a position available and, you know, that if I was interested that I could get a chance to interview for that position. And so, yeah, so I was, I was obviously very excited. And then I started experiencing thoughts

like, oh, you know, this is just this is just another army program. Like, I've worked in the army for a little bit over a year and a half, like, I know so much, like, I'm good. And so I had a phone interview with with CC and a couple other individuals from Fort Bragg and to say that the interview went poorly is probably an understatement I was unprepared uninspiring and honestly you know I was beyond embarrassed with how it went and I knew it from the moment I hung up on the phone that that did not go well. And yes, quite the ego hit, but also like, just embarrassing, you know, I've been given this opportunity, and I didn't take it. And so I got told I didn't get

the position. And then I did something that certainly made me uncomfortable, but I did pick up the phone and I called Cece and I said to her, you know, I did not prepare. I thought that this was just going to be just like the other, you know, regular army interview. And I thought I knew, I thought I knew enough. I thought I knew stuff that was going to excite you and I didn't. And it was one of those experiences where I was definitely humbled. And I realized like I had lost that white belt mentality. And to say that that's instilled in my brain now forever is an understatement. You know, I, and I think probably the most, the most part of that hurts me the most was just like my lack of humility about that situation. Like thinking that I knew what I knew and that that was good enough, like instead of

preparing and not, not feeling like how much of an incredible opportunity this is. And so, you know, I, I, at that point I said to Cece on the phone, I said, thank you for the opportunity. This will never happen again. Like, I'm going to put my head down and do really good work and just do work. And yeah, I mean, that, that hurt, you know, I was, it hurt not only me, but like, you know, my wife and I were trying to move back to the East Coast. And so like, that could have been an opportunity as well. But at that time, you know, I just decided, like, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna be better. I'm gonna, I'm, I don't

know everything, like, I'm going to learn, I'm going to continue to ask questions. And I'm gonna put my head down and just try to do the best possible work with where I'm at right now. And I feel like that was probably the best thing that could have ever happened to me was not getting that position. It was incredible that I needed that kind of kick in the ass, honestly, and that embarrassment to, you know, eventually just get back to what's most important. And that's learning and just never being satisfied and always being hungry to learn more and learn more. And Brian, my sense is like, didn't Cece later, did she hire you for the Indians job or tell us how, you know, I'm wondering if you wouldn't have called, like what would have happened, you know, tell us about like how it ended up playing out in your life later.

It's a full circle. About two years after that i got a phone call from cc and uh you know she kind of asked me what was going on like how are things going uh i had recently moved to new york because i was working at fort drum at that point and you know it was nice to see her and chat with her i said like hey like things are going great like i'm really excited you know doing stuff with the best ranger team and like just really happy. And she said like, Hey, you know, we have this position with the Indians. I was certainly surprised. And, you know, throughout the past two and a half years kind of working with CC a little bit

more, she, she does her due diligence. And she, you know, she said she kind of called around and just asked people about some work that was happening and who was doing the work. And, you know, yeah, my name did pop up, but it was one of those situations where, you know, I think people ask all the time, like, and I was, you know, I'm not saying that I was doing the best work. I was surrounded by incredible people who helped me all the time along the way. And some of my best friends are people that I met in the army program. And, um, you know, I was just really lucky to be surrounded by great people and, and, and great, you know, installations to be able to do that kind of work. But, you know, full circle. full circle yes uh I did get a chance and I to tell you that I was prepared for that Indians interview let me tell you that

I would not make that mistake again so uh yeah it was it was an incredible learning experience um and you know I've told this story to a lot of people because I think, you know, I think if I had just put my head down and was like really bummed out about that situation and angry about it versus wanting to get better and improve, I think the outcome could have been a lot different. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I hear just many different takeaways from that story. You know, the first one is that, you know, our most difficult moments in our life can be our greatest gifts. And I think you just gave that example of it was a wake-up call. It made you realize like, hey, I got to get back to learning and growing and also like not having such a big

ego that you, you know, that you don't prepare, you don't do what you can. But I like that, you know, just that it really did shape you. It allowed you to have this opportunity now, which is, you know, also a gift. And I think you also said something, Brian, that really stood out to me is, you know, when you're doing good work, people will find you. And that's really what it's about. Sometimes I think that people want the next opportunity or, especially in our field where, you know, they're looking for the next thing instead of like just doing great work where you're at and getting really, really good at it and learning and growing and being the best that you can instead of always like searching for that next,

next gig or the next big opportunity. Absolutely. I mean, right. We asked our athletes to be present, don't we? Like we asked them to be where their feet are. And it's like, if we, you know, we, we kind of practice what we preach too. Like we be present, be where you are. And it's like, if we, you know, we, we kind of practice what we preach to like, we be present, be where you are. And I think for us to like, being grateful, you know, like, you know, it was five years ago when I graduated, and I was so lucky that the military was hiring in the influx that they were, and I got that incredible opportunity experience. You know, I know, for some people that are older than me, that opportunity wasn't always there.

So like it was hard to find, you know, opportunities and chances. And I feel like as the field continues to grow, there's these great experiences that people out of school can get and even people in school can continuously get. And part of that is from people that have been doing this for a long time like you and, you know, like Ken Reviza and like Charlie. And I think those opportunities really help to continue to push and grow the field. Absolutely. Absolutely. So do good work where you're at and people will find you. Love it. So Brian, as we wrap up the interview, you know, do you have any kind of final advice for people who just want to be at their best every day?

You know, if you can think of a mindset or a psychological principle that you think is really important, you know, what would you tell people? So one thing that I've actually, that I need to continuously get better at, but, you know, I mentioned before about the best baseball players are tend to be good separators. And I think that's really important for us too. And I know, you know, in pro sports and for people that are consulting on the side and doing a full-time job and maybe doing stuff teaching wise, like we get really immersed in our work. And I think sometimes if we don't take an opportunity to step back and separate and kind of be around the people that we love and that we care about, and be able to rejuvenate and practice what we preach, that, you know, the idea of burnout and the idea of like, just not being able to handle it anymore, and the schedule and the pace is very

real. And so that's like something that's really important to me and that I am still trying to get better at. You know, I'm only as, as I'm only as lucky as I am because of my wife and everything that, that she provides for me for being so strong and such a good communicator and being so willing to sacrifice for the careers that I've been looking for. And like, I'm really trying to do better at being present with her at home and, and, and being able to separate from, from work and our life. And so, you know, I know it ties in a little bit, we said, you know, looking for the next opportunity and doing what we do. And it's like, if we don't take an opportunity to reflect and, and be present with the people that are most important outside of work.

Or, and sometimes for me, my wife is the most important person. It's like, I'm never, you'll, you'll never reach your full potential because you need those people in your life. And so, you know, I know that may not be like particularly a technique or signature technique, but it's just like, it's something that's so real to me. And I think people with families and I'm so lucky to work for an organization that values family and that values the relationship that we have outside of work.

But that's something that's been a little bit more prevalent to me recently, just with travel and things like that. It's just like really being happy to be at home with the people that you care about the most and being present when you're there. I think you're speaking to me, Brian. I actually just wrote my goals for the year. And one of them was to, when I get home at, you know, six o'clock, I'm not going to do any work. And that's really hard because, you know, for me, I'm an achiever and I like to like, you know, cross things off my list. But I had the realization a couple of weeks ago as well that, you know, cross things off my list. But I had the realization a couple weeks ago as well that, you know, if I keep doing that, I'm missing out on like really important moments with my family.

And I have two boys, Carter and Blake, who are, you know, eight and 10. And pretty soon, you know, they're going to be grown up and they're not going to want to be at home. My goal for the year is like, be completely present when I'm at home, turn off the phone and, you know, the email and the to do list, put those keep those in my car in my office or something. Yeah, yeah, it's really true. Absolutely. And so I think like, for us, you know, our work is, it's something we really care about, you know, and I think, I think it was Angela Duckworth, who said that, you know, passion for your work is a little bit of discovery followed by a lot of development and then a lifetime of deepening. And for me, it's like, okay, I can, I can continuously discover

when I'm here, I can continuously develop and I can continuously deepen for my lifetime. And part of me feels like that's not just in my work either. That's at home with my wife. Like, you know, we're always discovering and we're always developing and cultivating our relationship. And then it is, I mean, a marriage is a lifetime of deepening as well. And so I just feel like that translates not just into what your career is and work, but it's like your passion for your life outside of that too. Really, really nice. Well said, Brian, and heartfelt. So I appreciate that for sure. Well, Brian, you've given us so much just to consider and to think about. I'm just going to kind of summarize what we've talked about to kind of pull out the main points. You started with talking

about working to be at the edge of your capacity, which is a really clever way of kind of just describing like always getting out of your comfort zone and how you even see the best athletes do that. We also talked about, you know, taking the ego out of it and how the best athletes, they're always looking to get the edge, but being okay if they fail and looking stupid and actually being the first person to perhaps laugh it off. You talked about the importance of accepting the moment and then moving on. And we also talked about the obstacle is the way and how you help athletes really do that, that embrace the obstacle. You talked about being creative and focusing on the process

and gave the example of the Tommy John surgery. And, you know, I just really appreciate your time and your energy, Brian, to share with us some wisdom. And I know that you have positively impacted thousands of people today by sharing more about the story and the work that you do. So I really, really appreciate you coming on today. Thank you very much. Obviously, you know, we all appreciate you out here too. It's always incredible to get an opportunity to listen to some of the amazing people in the field

and what they're doing. And I think, you know, like I said, we're all, we're all grown and learning. And so what a great opportunity to do that every week, getting a chance to listen. Nice. Yeah. And I, I grow and learn every time that I interview somebody. So I like the idea of just like continuing to deepen your practice and always, you know, having this growth mindset. So Brian, I really appreciate all the great work that you're doing in the field.

And thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you liked today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend, and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration

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