High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 232: Be the Best Version of Yourself When it Counts the Most with Dr. Karen MacNeil

Episode Date: February 8, 2019

Dr. Karen MacNeill has the unique experience of having both competed and consulted on the World Stage.  She is a registered psychologist and performance consultant with over 18 years of experience helping Olympians, organizations and business leaders consistently bring their best in high pressure situations. She has worked with athletes competing at the last 4 Olympic Winter Games, and competed herself at the international level for over a decade.  Karen applied her knowledge and expertise in her capacity as Manager of Sport Psychology Services for Vancouver Olympic Committee’s medical team at the 2010 Olympic Games.  Most recently, she was the Lead Mental Health Counsellor for the Canadian Olympic Committee at the 2018 Winter Olympics in Korea.  At the 2018 Games, she was also the Mental Performance Consultant for Ski Cross Canada who had their best Olympic result to date capturing the Gold medal in the men’s event and Gold and Silver medals in the women’s event. Karen has become a partner and Chief Product Officer with a digital health media company, Headversity, which offers innovative education through on-site and on-line programs to help people to build mental resilience and thrive. In this episode, Karen and Cindra discuss: Why you need a “mental fitness golf bag” The rationale for giving 80-90% not 100% The importance of considering your personal brand Why we each need to “do the work” on ourselves How resilience is proactive not reactive

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today. Now, the goal of these interviews is to learn from the world's best leaders, athletes, coaches, and consultants, all about the topic of mindset to help us reach our potential or be high performers in our field or sport.

Now, typically with two episodes weekly, we explore everything related to mindset. You can learn secrets of a world-class consultant, coach, entrepreneur, athlete, or leader, or listen to me provide a short, powerful message each week to inspire you to be at your best consistently. Now, in this episode, episode 232, I interview Dr. Karen McNeil. Now Dr. McNeil has a unique experience of both having competed and consulted on the world's biggest stage. She's a registered psychologist and performance consultant with over 18 years of experience helping Olympians, organizations, and business leaders bring their best in high-pressure situations. She's worked with athletes competing at the last

four Olympic Winter Games and competed herself on an international level for over a decade. Most recently, she was the lead mental health counselor for the Canadian Olympic Committee in the 2018 Winter Olympics in Korea, and she was also the mental performance consultant for Ski Cross Canada, who had their best Olympic performance to date. Now in this interview, Karen and I talk about her new adventure called Headversity, which is a digital health media company, and we also discuss several very important key factors in terms of performance. We talk about why we need to each have a mental fitness golf bag and what that means. She talks about the rationale for

giving 80 to 90 percent, not 100 percent, which I think you'll find interesting. She talks about the importance of considering your personal brand and what that is and what that includes, why we need to each do the work on ourselves and what that means, and how she views resilience as proactive, not reactive. Now, as you could imagine in today's interview, I enjoyed many of the things that Karen talked about. My two favorite parts is how she defines high performance and her message to the Olympic athletes and the lead athletes and CEOs that she works with is really about being the best version of yourself when it counts the most.

And I also appreciated what she talked about in terms of adapting and reacting to what is now instead of what is supposed to be. Now, I know you're going to enjoy today's interview. You can head over to Twitter and connect with Dr. McNeil and I. I'm at mentally underscore strong. And Dr. McNeil and I. I'm at mentally underscore strong. And Dr. McNeil is at Dr. K McNeil. All right, without further ado, let's bring on Karen. Thank you so much for joining me, Karen. I'm so excited to have you here on the podcast.

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. You bet. Well, I followed your work for some time now and heard you speak at the Association for Applied Sports Psychology Conference last year. And so I'm just looking forward to getting to go know you a little bit better and to learn more about your work. Sounds great. Look forward to the conversation. So Karen, tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do right now. Yeah, I think, you know, around my passion, it's, you know, when I look at my why, it's about being a difference maker and, and really it's in the area of building resilience, developing mental fitness. So my performers can be the best version of themselves when it counts the most.

Okay. Nice. Counts the most that that's important. Tell us more about like, what does that mean to you? You know, being the best version of yourself when it counts the most. Yeah. And I think it is, it's, it's in those moments, whether they're big for you or small, it's, it's that ability to show up consistently, knowing your core, knowing what you're capable of and being able to produce that. So, so when I say counts the most, this is, you know, with the Olympians, with the executives, when there are those critical moments, they're able to bring the best version of themselves to that, meaning that they are performing 85 to 90% of their potential. Okay, excellent. And why not 100%? What are your thoughts on that? I think when we look at performance and we shoot

for that 100, when we don't hit it, which I don't know anyone who has, it feels like we've not met the expectation. And so when we put it as 85 to 90 to 95 of your best, I think it creates a little bit of wiggle room. And what I find with the athletes is they know they're like, I am that good that all I need is 90% of me. And that gives them room to be free and even do more. Absolutely. So they're not feeling so much pressure or anxiety that I have to give, you know, maybe what you might hear coaches or parents say is give 100% 110% today. That's even what they say, right? That's right. And I think it is, it's not necessarily what they're giving. It's what, you know, they're being able to produce and what is realistic. And so what I find is, you know, at this last games in particular,

and I think that's that was at the 2018 games, my athletes there, I think a lot of them, we were able to say, and no matter what the result was, is I was the best version of myself today. And that's what's so rewarding, I think. Mind you, they came home with a gold and a silver on the women's side and a gold on the men's and so and a variety of personal best. So it wasn't really the result. It was that feeling of satisfaction that I know I did everything I could today. Absolutely. You know, Karen, I know you've had a really unique experience competing on the world stage and then now consulting there. So tell us just briefly how you got to where you are now.

Yeah, so my journey started as an athlete. And, you know, and if I go right back, I, you know, I played a variety of sports throughout the years. And, you know, I had what I would call a Karen enhancing coach early in junior high and who noticed that I had a little bit of excess energy and gave me a simple breathing technique and it made all the difference. And then fast forward 10 years later, and I am on my first tour with the Canadian field hockey team.

I had the opportunity to represent my country in that sport. And I'm going to my very first match, very first opportunity to represent my country, which was a dream of mine growing up while we were a big sporting family. Olympics was a big thing. And, you know, I got off the bus and I saw the Heineken tent. We're in Holland. I saw the Heineken tent over on one side and the band over there and 10,000 people in the stadium. And I was freaking out. My heart was pounding. My mind was racing. And so when I had the opportunity to get on that field, I failed. So my big moment, basically my mind was a thief, not allowing me to be my best in that moment. And so I think as I was consoling myself in the Heineken tent after, I thought to myself, never again, I would never

let my mind be a thief of my big moment. And so that led on this journey four degrees later, 20 years in this field where I've had the opportunity to work with, you know, whether it's athletes, it really started out with the athletes and Olympians and then and then went into organizations and executives and individuals. So really, the gift or I think what I'm really driven to do is help people train their mind, so they can be the best version of themselves. Absolutely. And so you know, when know, when you think back to your experience as a field hockey athlete, hopefully you've recovered from that.

You're able to, you know, gain some awareness of yourself and how to use the mental tools. Tell us a bit more about that and what made you decide to move forward with performance psychology as a career? Yeah, and so that was my very first match. I had 10 years after that and so absolutely learned that lesson you know work to train the mind uh throughout that process and I think my teammates

if they're listening to this they'd often ask me they'd say Karen what degree are you in like sports psychology I was one of the most competitive and demanded a lot of people, I think, in those moments, but really just wanting us to achieve and succeed. And so for me, the work during that time, working with a consultant, becoming more self-aware, so I wasn't that girl on the field, managing my focus and directing it to the right things, being able to manage some of those distractions were very helpful. And then really, I think by the end of my career, it was really coming to peace with myself. And so I had a moment, it was, I think that the Olympic qualifier, getting ready for the Atlanta Olympics. And in my mind, I was young and a rookie and you go to the

qualifier and you qualify and then you go to the Olympics. Well, we were one team away and we didn't qualify. And so after that point, there was this moment and this three month period where I went into a bit of a depression and my identity was so intertwined with my role as an athlete that I felt lost. And so I think it was after that point where, you know, I recognized being an athlete is something I do. It's not who I was. And so I had to figure out that piece. And I think that's where it led to this journey in sports psychology, where I really thought, okay, what do I want to be when I grow up? That instance was right after my undergrad. And then I applied for a master's University of Ottawa, Terry Orlick, Natalie Drambush. And then that led me on a path and I went into applied psychology and then my PhD. And so I think,

you know, that moment of really needing to discover and figure out what your passions are, which is, I don't want anyone to feel the pain that I felt before. And so let's help them train their mind, really always interested in the human condition and how we can really push ourselves. And so I think that's what led me into this field. Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said about being an athlete is something that I do, not who I am. Now, how do you see that kind of manifesting itself like in the work that you do now, either yourself as a consultant right if you're anything like me I can I can take it not as something I do but who I am may or not be may or may not be always helpful but how do you see that play out with the athletes and corporate executives that you work with now yeah and I think I think this is one thing for

a lot of the people I work with and in my, I'm constantly doing work on my side. And I think that's the one thing I would say to the consultants out there, do your work, know why you're doing what you're doing, know who you are, know what your triggers are. And I think that's the thing too, with my athletes or the executives is, is really, we talk a lot about self-expertise and personal brand. And it's that whole idea of grounding yourself in you, in the person you are, and how you want to show up, right. And so it's looking into what is your why? Why are you doing this in the first place? What is it about? Because at the games, it can be about, you know, doing it for my country, or not disappointing others, or and that creates a lot

of internal pressure pressure versus getting really clear and and driven on that mission so you know those who know of victor frankel a psychologist who who survived a nazi war prison camp you know coined the term if you know your why you can endure anyhow and so i think it just grounds them in the path that they have to go through to be their best. So yeah, I think that level of self expertise and knowing your why your personal brand is really around how do I want to show up on a consistent basis. And I don't know if you experienced this, but sometimes I'll get emotionally hijacked. My husband and my daughter will tell you that at times. And so it's kind of saying to myself, who is the mom I want to be? Do I want to be the frustrated, you know, irritated person because she's not putting on her shoes? Or do I want to be patient and loving and nurturing? And so that's more brand driven behavior rather than emotion driven. So if we can get the athlete, the performer, the executive really clear on who they are and how they want to show

up, how they want to present, that's super helpful to ground them in those emotionally charged situations. Excellent, excellent. So Karen, you know, you've spent so many years now at the Olympic Games with the athletes that you work with. 2002 was your first Olympics, right, in Salt Lake City, is that correct? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what you see that the best of the best do, you know, and you kind of mentioned the gold medals during the last Olympics that you were able to be a part of. Tell us what you think that the best of the best do on the world's biggest stage. Yeah. And I think what I have seen, the best of the best, I think there is that internal, get that one extra percent. It's not

it's not the 80 90% better they are than the other person. It's the 1% more that they do each day. So I think putting in that work, I think the other piece is, you know, we've heard a lot about mindfulness and being in the moment. And so I think the best of the best are able to lock in to the experience and let it unfold, adapt and react to what is versus what is supposed to be. I actually did my PhD dissertation on this in terms of what are the factors that lead to optimal Olympic performance and looked at a bunch of medalists. And that was one of the factors is that ability to be in the moment, but also to be flexible and adapt and react depending on on what's coming at me. I think the other thing is, they're,

you know, that narrative and that builds that confidence, but it's they're hard on themselves, they demand a lot, but at the same time, this internal belief, knowing that they got this. And so, you know, working on that inner coach or that inner narrative that is more productive rather than defeating. So those would be a few things that stand out to me. Yeah, those are really powerful. I have a few kind of follow up questions from each of those. And so maybe let's start with the one that

you said about being in the moment, but being able to adapt. And I know that came from your dissertation a little bit, but also what you see. So, you know, for those people who are listening and say, wow, yeah, that sounds like awesome, but how do I do that? Yeah. Well, you know, and I know it's a work in progress. It's not something you just learn to do overnight, but what do you see, you know, the best of the best be able to do in terms of how they learn to be in the moment and then to adapt and react like you mentioned? Yeah. And so I think training that level of awareness and insight, right?

And so, so mindfulness is our biggest tool in that, right? Mindfulness being deep awareness at the present moment in an open and curious way. And so the more, and that's, it's an interesting thing because I was at a conference where, you know, mindfulness and performance conference, and we were talking about is, is it a skill and a tool we use to develop this ability to adapt and be in the moment and all those things, or is it a way of being? And, and what I would say is developing the skill allows us to create that way of being. Like, for example, one of the gold medalists from the ski cross team at the 2018 Olympics, he broke his leg in 2010. He came fourth in 2014. And so, you know, if he hadn't done the work, there could have been a bit of pressure there. And I heard in an interview, I read in the interview,

and I was like, yes, he did it. Saying, you know, every time I thought back to Sochi, the last Olympics, I just thought, be here now in Korea. So he'd done some of that work. So it allowed him to be in the moment and adapt to what was coming his way. So I think for those who need a little bit more mental flexibility, It's a matter of doing some of that mindfulness work, developing that greater level of self-awareness and insight, and then directing your intention, saying, you know, how do I want to be? And I think if we map things too much in our mind, you know, imagery is great. At the same time, people can panic if the external environment doesn't match the internal situation.

A really good example of that is this athlete was at an Olympic Games and she visualized, you know, coming out of the gate first over and over and over again. Well, in the final, she came out of the gate second. And so what happened in her mind is there was this brief moment of panic. And so, you know, led to a crash being airlifted off the mountain. And so that's an example of, you know, creating your mental map, but also having some flexibility. So what's plan A, what's plan B, what's plan C, as you're going down the track, the run, the course, whatever you're doing. So I think planning a little bit for the different scenarios

that you can face, and then just getting engaged in that present moment, noticing what's coming at you, being present and grounded will allow you to be a little bit more adaptable in those situations. Yeah, I like that advice, Karen. And I'm thinking about being able to adapt and recover means that you're not pushing, you're not fighting what's happening, you know, you're just like letting it be. Do you think when you're helping, you know, those elites that you work with plan for plan A, B, and C? Do you have them do various types of imagery, not just like this mastery imagery of me, you know, doing my skill perfectly and winning? You know, tell us a little bit about how you see them being able to

adapt and plan for plan A, B, and C. Yeah. And so once again, I think as a consultant, one of the biggest tools is really ability to know that individual, know what their needs are, and then help them discover what they need within that. So everyone's going to be different. You know, I have some guys, their plan is not to plan because their instinct level is so high that it's a matter of they know they need to be in the moment. And that's what keeps things fresh and allows them to engage in that moment where others need that sense of, I have looked at every single angle and I know exactly what's coming my way. Right. So I think there'll be a variety there in the imagery. Once again, I leave it up to the individual. Everyone will have a different level. So I think there'll be a variety there in the imagery. Once again, I leave it up to the

individual. Everyone will have a different level. And I was listening actually to Anders Ericsson on Mike Gervais Finding Mastery podcast. And, you know, they had a little riff on imagery and acquisition of expert performance. And what he actually said, the best thing to do is watch a video of an expert performer and then imagine yourself on that same course or track. So, you know, I've been playing around that with a few of the athletes and that's seemed to be effective where, where they're either watching them do it very well or watching a teammate or someone best in the world. And then they'll do an imagery and put themselves in that exact same situation in terms of how they may go about doing that.

So I think with imagery, it is it's really being clear on on what you're using it for, whether it's to build confidence, whether it's to, you know, map out your plan, whether it's to reinforce and validate your strengths and expertise, and then, you know, giving them a variety of options in terms of how they can execute on that. Yeah, I appreciate that, you know, just in terms of helping the athlete figure out what they need. And it's not like this bandaid approach that works for everyone, right? When you were saying about because one theme I'm hearing quite often you say is like, know who you are and how do you want to show up? What kind of guidance would you give people who are listening in terms of okay? You know, I like your example of a mother because I am a mother too, right?

And sometimes I can find myself getting frustrated that they won't put their shoes on or whatever and That's not the kind of mom I want to be tell us about you know How you might guide someone through that or help them better understand how they want to show up Yeah, and so it's a hard kind of area because you're really looking deep into your soul and who does that, you know? And so, so really the whole idea is it's within you. We just need to reveal it. Right. That's, I think that's a Mike Gervais-ism as I say it out loud. You know, I think that he says that quite a bit. And so I think that's, that's part of it. And that's where, you know, creating some of that

space for the mindful reflection, you know, asking yourself, who am I, you know, those kinds of things. We, we go through a little bit of a exercise, you know, a lot, a lot of based on, you know, the thought leader, Simon Sinek, in terms of finding your why he is a bit of a formula, really it's around, you know, what really are my key contributions that I want to make. And, and those can stem from questions such as like, what gets me out of the bed in the morning? What excites me most about what I do? What contribution do I make doing these activities, you know, kind of get to the crux of that. And then once you figure out your contribution, Simon Sinek's formula is then, well, what impact is that going to have? So it's kind of like

to insert contributions, so that insert impact. So for me, it's to be a difference maker, developing mental fitness so that individuals can be the best version of themselves. Right. So I think like reflecting, creating space and time in and sitting in some of those questions, I think also going back to your origin story. Like for me, it's really when I I when I look back even further than that first you know field hockey event I can look at little points of pain in my history where I wasn't my best whether it was due to my mind or due to stress or whatever it may be and so that's kind of informed that hey this is the ticket for me I think on that other point that

you're talking about you know it's more around how do I want to show up? It's really about doing the work, you know, and for the athletes out there or the consultants, who is the consultant I want to be? If my athletes were around the proverbial water cooler, what would I want them to be saying about me? Like for me, it's like, I want to be approachable, knowledgeable, supportive, empathetic, empowering, you know, or whatever those are. And so then you can create your list of, and I'd say four or five descriptors of how you want to show up. And then every so often keep yourself accountable and rank how well you're doing on those one to 10, 10, great one El Saco, right. And you can kind of monitor and get a sense. And I'll do that for myself at

home sometimes. So who's the wife, who's the husband just to keep myself in check. And I'm like, yeah, patience. I can improve on that. So it just keeps me in check in terms of, am I showing up in the way that I say I want to be and not letting my emotions overtake that. Yeah. And helping you show up the way that you want to and reflecting on that. That's exactly right. Yeah. And helping you show up the way that you want to and reflecting on that. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Karen, have you experienced any sort of like pushback, right? Because I'm thinking about people might say, well, I don't want to do the work. And what does that even mean? And, you know, maybe I have too big of an ego to even think that I need to do the sort of like

internal work so I can do well. And in this moment that matters to me, you know, do you see any of that? Or do you, do you think that it's kind of decreasing in terms of the importance of training your mind and how the best of the best, you know, might approach that? Yeah. I think that like, I'd say in terms of training your mind, the mental fitness, that side, I think we've come a long way. Like when I first started, it was really doing a big marketing job. This is really helpful. You need the, it's not just for the individual that has a psychological problem, right? So we had to do that where now this is just part of the program. You know, it's, you've got to train, you know, what you do, your craft, you've got to train your body and you've got to train your mind. That's how you become the best. So I think there's a

little bit more openness. I think the challenge with the mental fitness side is that it's invisible and it, and it comes out in behaviors, right? So the physical fitness, we can do a test and it's like, yeah, the strength coach is great. And we're making improvements on the mental side. They have to experience it. And that's what I'd say early in my career as a rookie. It's like, here's your worksheet. Like it was very conceptual, right? It was very like, here's the technique that you need to do. And this will help you versus saying, Hey, okay, when you go out next, I want you to try this and just, just notice you, you tell me what the difference was or what that experience was like. Right. I think we've come a long way in the mental training side on this self-discovery self-expertise I think it really depends on where that person is at and

and so that's where with this I meet them where they are at so some who have a little bit more armor on you know maybe background was a little bit different or challenging and need to have a little bit more protection don't feel as comfortable being vulnerable then then really there needs to be a lot more time put into developing the relationship, getting to know them, them getting to know me so that we can have an authentic dialogue around some of those things. I like what you said about like having them try it. I use the metaphor quite often. It's like a mental fitness golf bag, right? So you're not going to go around the golf course with just, you know, your putter. It's not going to be effective for each

shot. So we need to resource you with these mental fitness tools so that, you know, your putter, it's not going to be effective for each shot. So we need to resource you with these, with these mental fitness tools so that, you know, you have the calm club, you have the focus club, you have the confidence club, you have the performance planning or, or distraction, whatever it is. And then you can pull out the club as you need, but why don't we like, why wouldn't you create like carry this tool bag with you? And so, so it's a matter of just giving them these personal resources that they can use as when needed and then helping them integrate it into what they're doing. Absolutely. So tell us a bit more about what you mean by self-expertise. Let's kind of talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So, so when I look at that as it's, you know, and that's kind of my model, I think of high performance or when I'm doing this performance consulting, John Herdman, he's the soccer coach in Canada here.

And he's just, he's an amazing guy. Now he's coaching the men's team, but he kind of, he came into, you know, in Canada, we had a meeting of all the sports psychs and, and he challenged us and he said, what's, what's your model? And, and we're all like, Oh yeah, I guess we should have a model. Right. So, so so I just you know this was a while ago but I kind of doodle down in terms of like how do I conceptualize this how do I see it and that was core is it always starts with you in terms of that level of awareness and as a player I would say my my insight and awareness was very lacking and I had this once again another care and enhancing coach, Drew Marshall,

who, who held me accountable and helped me to create that awareness and say, this is how you're coming across. And I'm like, really? I'm the asshole. She's like, yes. I'm like, oh, okay. You know? And so it's helping them to develop that. And so I think it's that level of awareness and insight. So when I'm saying self-expertise, it's really around, once again, as we've talked about before is what is your why what's really driving this, what's driving around, once again, as we've talked about before, is what is your why? What's really driving this? What's driving you? What is your brand? Once again, how do you want to show up consistently? And then that third layer that we haven't talked about is superpowers. The Pareto principle talks about 80% of the output comes from 20% of our factors, right? And so it's all about what are those one or two things that

I am really strong at, and that I want to maximize in difficult conditions. And so I think it's giving the individual insight into the into those three aspects, in addition to what does high performance look like to them, like Matt, like for the leaders, it's mapping that out. It's like, if you're being a high performance leader, you know, you tell me what does that look like for the athlete? And this was actually your podcast with Sean McCain, McCann, McCain, where he talked about, you know what, we don't know what the outcomes are, but you know, the behaviors you need to be your best. And I've always talked about key performance factors. So that just reinforced, yeah, that's exactly what we're doing is what are those behaviors? What are those attitudes?

Where's that focus in order to be your best? So helping athletes to map that out for themselves. And then, you know, when they're pretty grounded in themselves and feel pretty solid in their core, the environment around them isn't so distressing, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And can you give us some examples of superpowers, you know, maybe your superpowers or superpowers that Olympians that you've worked with or execs have, you know, that they might be able to rely on in those moments that matter to them? Yeah. And so, so I think a couple of my guys, we always talk about captain compete or the compete factor. They're just so driven and competitive and they know

whether they're, you know, didn't get the right sleep or whether, you know, there's so much media on them and maybe fatiguing them. They know their compete factor is going to pull them through. So that would be something that they can ground themselves in. I think for me, personally, you know, when I look back, like 2010 games, I was the manager of sports psychology for the medical team. And, and he was basically, you know, the charge was to provide services to the Olympic family, any athlete, any country anywhere. First day luge athlete, unfortunately, dies on the on the luge track. so I had to do the crisis intervention and so I think for me one of my superpowers is the planning and anticipation I can you know see ahead so four years prior to that I'm mapping out I'm getting trained

crisis intervention had my team had everything going and then the ability to lock into the moment and get engaged in my I think people will say for me, which it's a double edged sword, my energy, right, which can be too much for some of my intensity, but but that energy helps me in those intense moments as well. So yeah, so those would be some examples of really and really thinking about like, what is it about me? And it's not that I'm better than anyone else, but that I know I can rely on in any circumstance. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And tell us a bit more about what that event was like for you, the luge crisis intervention. And, you know, if you're not controlling yourself as a consultant and acting purposefully and like how you want to show up, right, it can negatively impact a lot of people. And I could only imagine, you know, like the athletes that you're working with there. How did you handle that situation? Yeah, great question. And I think it, you know, as the story goes, is, you know, it was it was the day before the opening ceremonies. And I'm sitting in, you know, the Chan Center, there was this speaker center at the university, and Johan Koss was was presenting, you know, a gold medal speed skater,

founder of the right to play. And I was on call, but I turned my cell phone off for the 20 minute talks would be rude if it rang. Well, within that 20 minutes, I turned the phone back on and I have 21 voice messages and it was the chief medical officer, my team. And, you know, and this was the moment where Nodar from the Republic of Georgia flew off the track, hit a pole and died. And it was my job to do that crisis intervention. So the immediate reaction was instant intensity. Heart started to pound, mind started to race. I'm kind of running around and I had a colleague with me and she gently put her hand on my shoulder and said, Karen, don't we want to model the behaviors we want others to have?

And it was like, stop freaking out. I'm like, right. Okay. And I'm a human being, right? Like I'm going to react in this way. That's a normal thing. And so it's that ability to be able to, okay, get that awareness. And thankfully she was there just to give me a little tap, kind of saying, ah, hello. And so then because I'd done the work, and I'd say in 2002, I did not do the work. And there were some challenges there, which we can talk to in a moment. But I'd done the work. I'd just finished an eight week mindfulness course, I'd, you know, managed my nutrition, my exercise, I'd done my mental skills training, identified who I wanted to be at my best, we had mapped out this plan. We knew exactly what we needed to do to intervene. And so then I could carry on calmly. I went back to our book that we

wrote in the event that this happens, read the manual because you're probably going to be a little activated and we just implemented and went through. So I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, know that you're going to react, know that's human and don't beat yourself up about it. Just go back to, okay, what is it that we need to do to manage and be most effective in this scenario? Absolutely. And I'm thinking about don't beat yourself up about it. You know, I know part of what you talk quite a bit about is like resilience. Tell us how, you know, that impacted your work, not only there, you know, at the Olympics and managing that event, but how do you see that play out with the athletes that you work with? That's right. Yeah. And so I think that is it and it's doing the work. And so, yeah, just as I, we were talking earlier, you know, I've kind

of been a solopreneur my whole life. So, you know, currently I'm, I'm lead performance consultant with the Canadian Olympic committee and I have contracts there. I do stuff with Alpine Canada. I have a variety of leadership and organizations I'm working with. You know, speaking, love to do that. And then now I've kind of become this entrepreneur launching a company called Headversity. And really, the goal is to train and measure resilience in workplaces. And, you know, the model that we're using there is quite similar to what I use with athletes. And, you know, there's two schools of thought around resilience. And there's, there's a bit of a discrepancy in the literature, I'd say there's a variety of definitions. And one one school is, you know, you have an adverse event, resilience is about bouncing back and, you know, moving forward,

where the other school is like, actually, no, it's not a reactive thing. It's a proactive thing. And so how we're really looking at resilience is it's that ability to develop the personal assets so you can tolerate your environment, the stress, the demand, and execute in adversity. And so that's how I really see resilience is it's really about equipping people with these personal assets. And I'd say that's where that self-awareness, the mindfulness tool. So you can create a separation between your reaction and your response, right? We're humans. Just like when the luge athlete incident happened, I'm going to react.

But I was able to create that buffer through my colleague. So no one else really saw that response, right? Developing the mental fitness tools we've been talking about, and getting into hardiness. And really, it's around that ability to endure difficult conditions. And there's a whole, you know, the three C's control, commitment, challenge, that we can develop an athlete. So there's this whole internal awareness and tools that we can use to help people build that resilience. And what do you see, Karen, in terms of like the long-term vision of Head Diversity, just so we can, you know, continue to follow along and tell us a bit more about

what that will look like in terms of building someone's skills to be hardy and resilient? Yeah, and where we really started is, so my partner is a psychiatrist. And so he's at the one end of the spectrum who he's seeing, you know, in the hospitals, people who are really suffering with deep mental health and psychological issues. I'm on the other end, I'm working with executives and Olympic athletes, but our model has been similar. And really, not our frustration, but our challenge or what we both find overwhelming is our ability to scale and help people. You know, his wait list is a year or two for people to just get into them. And I'm finding I'm only one person. So by using

technology, and then we have a PhD in eLearn, an excellent marketing guy, and our finance guys, we have this amazing team, so that we're able to take our knowledge and ball it up and put it into, you know, and so the training program is on site, there's a workshop, but it's also online. And I think that's going to be the play in and this is what I'm seeing. I work at Coatman Healthcare as well, which is a multidisciplinary clinic. And that's what we're seeing is we're going more into digital using into technology to manage health just due to that accessibility issue, in addition to scalability and being able to reach more people. So yeah, we're pretty excited to be able to kind of change

the way people view mental health and resilience and help people take on challenges, execute, and thrive in their life. Yeah, I can't wait to see, you know, how that progresses as you get going with it more. Sounds amazing. Yeah, and yeah, people can punch wait to see, you know, how that progresses as you get going with it more. Sounds amazing. Yeah. And yeah, people can punch over to the website. We really are trying to, you know, make it all things mental health, resilience, performance. We have a lot of content, videos, all that kind of stuff. So interested in finding a bit more, head over to headfirstu.com.

Excellent. Excellent. So Karen, one thing that I always ask everyone, so I love your answer to this question because as people are listening, they're thinking, wow, lead athlete herself has worked with Olympians, executives, helped train the world's best. But tell us about a time that you failed

and what you learned from it. And I think that's important to ask because not everyone's perfect, right? Absolutely. And I think this is the thing in my journey that I've learned is early on, I had a fixed mindset, I would say, if you know, if you know, Carol Dweck's work in terms of growth mindset and fixed mindset, where, where I really had this needing to prove my worth through what I do type of a thing. And yeah, I'd say in my, my, my late teens, early 20s. And

so I think a time where I feel, you know, and I see it as a failure, but really, I'd say in my late teens, early 20s. And so I think a time where I feel, you know, and I see it as a failure, but really, I see failure as feedback, right? So now that I'm able to look at it, but it was a horrible experience at the time. So 2002 Olympics, my first games, and I really got put there, Cal Botterill, you know, has always been my mentor, champion, and really gave, you know, kind of put me in the situation where I got the opportunity I just retired from being an athlete and let's be clear I've been to Commonwealth Games Pan Am Games but we did not qualify for the Olympics so it was this I'm at peace with it now but at that time it you know I did not achieve my goal and so now here I am I get to go to the Olympics and so I think with that, it was with the speed skating

team and our marquee skater won a whole bunch of world cup experiences, fell in his race that he was supposed to bracket bracket win the gold medal. And yeah, everyone was pretty distraught about that. And we had our other athlete who was going for her second gold medal the next day, which she ended up getting, but then there was a lot of intensity around that. And so I think, because I did not do the work, because I was not aware of the internal reaction is it was that over functioning, it was that wanting to be there wanting to help instead of reading people and reading the environment. And, you know, and this is where my worksheet comes in, you know, like leading up to that games, like, here's your worksheet, come on, here's your skill. And, you know, versus just, you know, and this is where my worksheet comes in, you know, like leading up to that game is like, here's your worksheet, come on, here's your skill.

And, you know, versus just, you know, really understanding them as athletes and as humans. And, and so, you know, fail bracket bracket, I think it's more, I know at the end of that, I was not my best self and, and it felt really, did it have any impact negatively on the athletes? I don't think so. I don't know that it was enhancing for them, but it took me a while after that to really, you know, process that experience. And then once again, as that failure being feedback in terms of really looking at what needed to happen, which is I needed to do my own work.

I needed to maintain more poise. It wasn't about me feeling useful and capable and those things. It was about responding to what the athlete and the environment needed. And so those were some really good takeaways and lessons after a bit of therapy and doing my own work, you know, but we're all human. And that's where I can really say now where I'm at in my career that I feel at peace and I go into these experiences that sure, maybe they're a bit over my head, but I'm like, what can I learn from today? And so it really is that growth mindset. And I, I welcome kind of the pressure because that, that turns me

on and that, that, that actually helps me to push a little bit more. So, so yeah, going from that experience to taking it into present day, which is really, once again, that art versus those tools type of. I appreciate you sharing that story because a few things I'm thinking about how we're performers as well, right? And maybe we're not actually doing the sports skill, but you can experience it all the time. So I appreciate your openness and honesty, you know, for those people who are listening who might be leaders in some way, what would you tell us in terms of your advice? What did you learn from that experience that you know you to encourage others to do? I think, you know,

when you're in the lead, and this is where I had like Pete Carroll, I was a fan of his before I got introduced to Mike Gervais and the Compete to Create situation. And so, you know, I read his book and then I met some guy who put me in touch with this other guy. And then I'm with Compete to Create, which is, yeah, Mike Gervais and Pete Carroll's organization who they've launched. And so I had the opportunity to go and observe the Seahawks and talk with Pete a little bit.

And so I think in terms of leaders, you know, what I learned from him is really, it's about creating the vision or creating, yeah, the vision in terms of what do you want this environment to be? What do you want this culture to be like? And then it's about reinforcing those principles. So, you know, Pete is really around like always compete, right? Be your best.

And so, so everything that that individual would do would be reinforcing to that. So I think with leaders is it's a matter of knowing what you want this culture to be about, and then reinforcing that through your communication, through what you drip into the culture, you know, whether it's, hey, let's do some mindfulness, because it's really important to be present and be in the moment. Or, you know, let's bring in a sports psychologist, because we really value training the mind, or let's have an authentic conversation about what's really going on here in this critical moment. And we're all really angry and frustrated, because I want to reinforce the importance of critical conversations. So yeah, I think it's having that vision, having that clarity of, of what you want to try and develop

in your team or your environment, and then making sure you're taking action to, to reinforce those messages. Excellent. I know that's helpful, you know, to many of those people listening who see themselves in leaders as leaders and helping them think about what kind of culture do they want to create. You know, one of the things that you said, Karen, is you said like, do the work, right? So I thought maybe that might be something else you'd encourage other people to do because I'm hearing it so often from the interview today. What would you tell people in terms of how to do the work or what's important, you know, in terms of the ways that you've done it or the ways that you've seen other people do it in the past? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, I think once again, is it's partly doing the work. It's, it's, it's almost like that onion, you know, you got to kind

of peel away and they're like, Oh yeah, I need that too. Oh yeah, I need that too. Right. So, so really getting at the core of what you really need. So I think it is, it's kind of looking at, you know, what do I need to perform in this environment? So if I take example of 2018 games, so my role there, I was the, you know, the sports psychologist with Ski Cross Canada. And then I also was the lead mental health counselor, the Canadian Olympic Committee put in this role, basically to attend to the team's mental health, any crisis that may occur, and then mental performance. And so for me, I've learned from that 2002 experience, I'm a high energy person. And the Olympic Games environment is like having an IV of Red Bull

coursing through my veins, like I'm on. So having that awareness and having that experience, knowing that that was my work. So once again, just to top up my mindfulness, I did another eight week mindfulness course. I started it in September, kind of finished it in November. So I had that kind of booster. And then I had my daily practice, my exercise, I make sure because that's, you know, in terms of the brain power, really important in terms of the physical energy, I had a nutrition plan. So that was part of an energy management thing. So athletic greens, I actually used, I had it daily. I did not get sick. It boosted my energy. And then I had my, my biggest challenge there was going away from my daughter who's five years old for that long,

that length of time. That was the longest I've ever been away from her. And so that was my big concerns. So how would I manage that? Talking it it through talk with my husband in terms of plans, doing the little video message every day or whatever I felt I needed to which she did not need to watch. She was like quite happy watching Madagascar. And so so yeah, so I think it is it's looking at what could be some of those interferences, those derailers kind of going into the situation. So that's kind of when you have a situation specific, I think when you're working towards something, really look at what are the needs going to be there. And then mapping out for me, what does high performance look like? So what are my key performance factors? If I was really performing well in this environment, what are those attributes? What are those characteristics?

And I would monitor that every couple of days just to keep me in check to see where I was at. So, so those are some of the things I did. I think doing the work can also mean, you know, outside of having like an event you're working towards is it's, is it's really, you know, what's high performance living, you know, so taking care of yourself, getting the recovery, like mindfulness, once again, we've talked about that a lot and that's what it was, but, but it just works. It's, you know, the science is rich on it. The nutrition plan, the social support is a big piece as well. And just being able to unplug. And so for me, my passion, I love what I do.

I'm so grateful to work with the people and learn so much. I also love my family and the adventures we have and being with them. And so how do I integrate this and and not have them competing with each other right so so it's knowing all that kind of stuff too I think I like the examples and I think about myself you know if I was going to give people one advice about how to build a business in sports psychology I think the thing that's most helped me is doing the work on myself you know my I have, I have a coach that I've had, I don't know how long, maybe six or seven years. Right.

And I, much like you go to attend different speakers or trainings or, you know, not to maybe learn from them, but like to learn about myself. Yeah. I appreciate a really important message to you because I feel similarly. Yeah, using yourself as the learning lab is the biggest way. I'll do that quite often, not necessarily for my work, for what helps me perform. And then it may come into my work because it was a useful tool, right? So, and yeah, the therapy I can't, you know, or those kind of things, just, you know, checking in, having your guy, having your person that you can

go to when you need to, I think developing that relationship throughout your career is really helpful as well. Yeah. Karen, is there any other topics, you know, that you see yourself covering quite often with the execs or the athletes that you work with? Any topics we haven't talked about? I think we've probably covered most. Oh, I guess one thing that I think was, that's been important is, and one thing we're doing with this Canadian Olympic Committee right now is just that whole idea of, we have the individual in the team culture.

And so we address the individual. And so one thing I think, a big part of my work with this one team I'm working with right now is developing a high performance team culture as well. And so when you look at some of the resilience literature, Jenny Liu, actually, she's working with Headversity. She's our main research out of the University of, or Ryerson University. And that's her model is multidimensional. It's not just about the individual being resilient

in that environment, but it's also the environment or creating a condition so that individual can thrive as well. So I think that'd be the one other aspect we always talk about, you know, in the mental training, but it's also helping to form and develop the team culture that's required for those individuals for that organization to be their best. Yeah. And when you see like the best of the best do that in terms of leaders who impact culture or like Pete Carroll, the Seattle Seahawks coach you mentioned, you know, it sounds like he's very clear on read his book as well, like the vision that he wants and then really creating that culture. What else do you see in terms of the best do in terms of creating a high performance culture? Yeah, I think it really does start with that is being clear and having a collective vision on what you want this culture to be. So if we look at, you know, the team I'm working with, it's about a high performance team culture with individuals achieving personal bests, right? So it's like something that everyone can buy into. And then

we need to look at, I think after that, we got to be really, really clear on the behaviors. Okay, so if we are creating a high performance team culture, what does that look like? Like, let's break that down. Okay, so we've got solid communication. We have the right to challenge. So if there's an issue, we're going to talk to people

instead of about people. You know, so really mapping out what those behaviors are. I think clarity of role. And I think this is where teams, whether it's the individual athletes, or it's the staff around them, if people can can have clarity of roles and responsibilities, and then commit to that, I think that's a helpful, useful thing. And I think one thing that's lost on a lot of these teams, especially in sport, just given time and the pace of how things move is the system of accountability. And so one thing we've implemented in our, with our group is we have debrief calls and we've set it up throughout the year. So after their major training camp or after, you know, a race block or a competitive block, I'll, you know, call every single individual and staff, and then we'll

just check in on our values, how well we're doing as a team, what are the individual needs, any feedback, and then we feedback that into the system so that we can, you know, keep improving over time. So yeah, the vision, being clear, defining the behaviors, roles and responsibilities, and then that system of accountability. In addition, we'll call them like process tools. So you need to know how to manage conflict, you need to know how to communicate effectively, those kind of things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Karen, I am so grateful for your time and your willingness to give back and your willingness to share with the listeners about your perspective. You know, as I think about summarizing the last hour, it's very difficult because there's so many amazing things that you said. I liked at the

beginning, just your definition of being the best version of yourself. And it's giving like 89 to 90%, not 100%. We talked about what that means to you. And then we talked about what you see that the best of the best do differently. Few of those things are they really know who they are, and they're able to be in the moment, but adapt and, and react, which I appreciate our conversation about that. And what we were talking about with imagery, you know, and that making sure that you're flexible, and that you have a plan A, plan B, and plan C. And then I really appreciate our conversation about doing the work on yourself

and what you were describing about self-expertise and understanding your own superpowers and the ways that you really want to show up and what high performance looks like to you. So I am so grateful for your time and your energy and just sharing your expertise with us today. It's been a real pleasure being with here and a fun conversation. I've learned a little bit more about myself too.

So it's great. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, you know, as you kind of wrap up first, tell us how we can connect with you. So I know you had adversities. One thing that you're working on, what are the ways that we can follow what you're doing either on social media or on the web? That's right. And because I'm now working with this group of millennials in a digital company, I'm actually getting on social now. So I think I have 101

followers. So yeah, headversity.com. Any emails, any more information you want, info at Headversity or at Headversity. You can follow us. Those are social channels there. For me personally, Instagram is Dr. Karen Mack and then Dr. Kay McNeil for Twitter. I don't do that as much, but I'm working on it. So be my 102 follower. Exactly. It is a work in progress. I appreciate that. Well, what final advice would you have for those people who are listening? I think part of it would be, I think right on that theme. And I think that's, what's come through here is around being clear, knowing who you are when you're at your best,

define that for yourself and then do the work, right? Make sure you are identifying where your gaps, where are your strengths, but put in the time and energy because when you're in that moment and you're able to bring all of you to that situation, which I've experienced at multiple Olympics, there's no other feeling like it. Yeah, love it. That was outstanding, Karen. Great. Well, thanks again for having me and look forward to continuing the conversation offline. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you like today's podcast,

make a comment, share it with a friend and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.