High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 252: Certified Consultant and Professor Shares Strategies for Top Performers with Dr. Jamie Shapiro

Episode Date: May 24, 2019

Dr. Jamie Shapiro is an Associate Professor and the Assistant Director of the Master's in Sport and Performance Psychology program in the Graduate School of Professional Psychology at the University of Denver. She earned a Ph.D. in Sport and Exercise Psychology from West Virginia University, and an M.S. in Athletic Counseling from Springfield College (2005). She earned a B.S. in Psychology from Brown University, where she was on the gymnastics team for 4 years. Dr. Shapiro is a Certified Mental Performance Consultant, listed on the United States Olympic Committee's Sport Psychology Registry, and a National Certified Counselor by the National Board of Certified Counselors.   Dr. Shapiro is a consultant for Sport & Performance Excellence Consultants based in Denver, CO. She has consulted with youth, collegiate, elite, and Paralympic athletes from a variety of sports. A former competitive gymnast, Dr. Shapiro still likes to do handstands in cool places all over the world. She is originally from NJ, and now that she lives in CO, she is attempting to improve her skiing abilities!  In this podcast, Jamie and Cindra talk about:   The habits of top performers  How to be a reflective performer  Why we need to mind our mental energy  How to refocus when negative Ways to deal with fear of failure  When discussing high performers she said, the best “KISS – Keep it simple and smart” to quiet the brain.  You can find a full description of the Podcast at cindrakamphoff.com/jamie.  

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today, ready to listen to episode 252 with Dr. Jamie Shapiro. Now, the goal of these interviews that I do every week is really to learn from the world's best. And I interview consultants, speakers, leaders, coaches, athletes, all about the topic of mindset to really help us apply this and be high performers in our field. Now today, Jamie and I talk about a variety of

different things, specifically all around the topic of high performance or top performance. And Jamie and I were talking about where do we first meet? And I think it was in 2012 at the Orlando Conference at the American Psychological Association. So it was really fun for us as we were doing this interview to think about how long have we really known each other and where do we first meet? So I am delighted to introduce you to Jamie. So Dr. Jamie Shapiro is an associate professor and assistant director of the Masters in Sport and Performance Psychology, the program there at the Graduate School of Professional Psychology at University of Denver.

She earned her PhD in Sport and Exercise Psychology from West Virginia University, along with her Masters in Community Counseling there. And she also has a Masters in Athlet in athletic counseling from Springfield College. She earned her BS in psychology from Brown University, where she was a gymnast for four years. We talked quite a bit about that and just the psychology of that sport. Dr. Shapiro is also a certified mental performance consultant listed on the United States Olympic Committee's Sports Psychology Registry and a national certifiedor from the National Board of Certified Counselors. So she is a consultant along with her work there at University of Denver.

She's a consultant for a group called Sport and Performance Excellence Consultants, and they're based in Denver, where she works with Paralympic athletes, youth athletes, college athletes, and elite athletes. And one cool thing about Jamie you might not know, you know, as a former competitive gymnast, what she likes to do is take really cool pictures of her doing handstands all over the world. So I will post a picture of this on Twitter so you can head over to mentally underscore strong to look at those pictures, but they're pretty cool. In this podcast, Jamie and I talk about what top performers do in the habits of top performers, how to be a reflective performer, and what to do at the end of your performance to really help you

learn and grow, but to stay positive and productive. She also talks about why we need to mind our mental energy, which is a concept I really loved learning about in this podcast from her, what we need to do to refocus when we're really negative and that it's much more than just being positive, and then ways to deal with fear of failure. Now my favorite quote from this interview is this one. She talks about when discussing high performers, she said, the best kiss. And what this means is they keep it simple and smart in order to quiet their brain. I know you'll enjoy this episode with Dr. Jamie Shapiro. Would love to hear anything that you have to say about the podcast. You can find me over at Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. And if you

enjoyed today's podcast, wherever you're listening to this podcast, if it's iTunes, iHeartRadio, Stitcher Radio, just head over there and write a comment or review about the podcast. That would just help us reach more and more people each and every week about a positive message about mindset. All right, have an outstanding week, my friends. Without further ado, here is Jamie. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jamie Shapiro. So great to have you here. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for having me, Sindra.

It's really an honor to be one of the people you interview on your show. Absolutely. And we were just talking about how many years ago that we met. We can't even remember, but I know it's been five, six, seven years ago. We've roomed together at some conferences and I really enjoy your insights. I'm really looking forward to talking with you today and learning more from you, Jamie. Thanks, Indra. So let's start.

And just for those listeners who might not know who you are, tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do right now. So to sum up my passion in a few words, I would say that it would be studying, observing, and being just a small part of people's growth experiences, both professionally and personally. And that relates to several things that I do. So my full time job is as an associate professor, a faculty member at the University of Denver, they have a master's in sport and performance psychology program. So I'm a faculty member there. It's a graduate program that's really practice focused. So we're training practitioners in sport and performance psychology. And I do supervision of the students work in the

community. I'm very lucky to be a part of a team of four faculty members. We have four full time faculty members there. And that is my full-time job, teaching, advising, supervising the students. And then on the side, I get to do some sport and performance psychology consulting. So I'm a member of Sport and Performance Excellence Consultants here in Denver, Colorado. The majority of my consulting work over the past five years has been with U.S. Paralympic teams and athletes. I also do work with some individual athletes in the community as well. So that's my side gig, the consulting. We're moving to all of those areas.

Yes, I'm excited to talk more about that. And also I'm involved with some professional organizations. Like you mentioned, the American Psychological Association, Division 47 is the Society for Sport Exercise and Performance Psychology. So I'm in the leadership executive committee there, and then also really involved with ASP, the Association for Applied Sports Psychology. Awesome. So, Jamie, tell us a little bit about your interest in like studying sports psychology. I know you're a gymnast at Brown, and my guess is that's a little bit of what you know, made you decide to pursue this as a profession.

I would say I got interested in the profession probably in high school. I took, you know, my intro to psychology class and loved it and heard from probably a teammate and my coach about the field of sports psychology. At the time, I was interested in doing something with athletes, maybe physical therapy or athletic training. And I went to a lot of physical therapy for my own injuries, and decided no, this isn't the direction I want to go. I saw them touching people's feet. And that that's what was the end of that for me. So I was like, I'd rather talk to people and not have to touch body parts. But anyway, part of sports psychology, I was like, I'd rather talk to people and not have to touch body parts. But anyway, I heard of sports psychology. I was like, that sounds really cool.

You know, I love my psychology class. I went to Brown. There's no sports psychology classes there. And we didn't have any sports psychology services either on the gymnastics team. So I really did my own research. And whenever I could write a paper on a topic of my choosing, I chose to write it on sports psychology. And that's how I started learning about the field.

I loved it. I totally understood it, especially as a gymnast. It's so mental. I connected with the field. And senior year, I did an independent study with a few other athletes. A psychology professor was nice enough to take us on. And we read sports psychology textbooks and discussed it. And I just decided, you know what, this is what I want to do and talk to people in the field, learned about the

different paths I could take, applied for graduate school. And that's what started my path. That's awesome. So Jamie, one of the questions I always ask people at the beginning of the interview is to tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from it. And I think the reason I think it's important at this point is because we're going to dive into your work, but it's also important to know that it hasn't been perfect on the way, right? And that we all have these failures, but we can really learn a lot from them to view them as challenges or opportunities. So tell us a story about a time you failed and what you think we can learn from it. Sure. I have a couple stories and it was really about my professional path. So when you look at my professional path, I wanted to do sports psychology and here I am doing pretty much my

dream job. But in between that, you know, once I decided, okay, I want to go to graduate school for sports psychology, I didn't get into my top pick of a program, which was the PhD program in sport and exercise psychology at West Virginia University. So I didn't get in out of undergrad and was disappointed, but I did get into Springfield College's athletic counseling program. And that's where I ended up going. And one lesson learned is just that things work out for a reason and they eventually work out for a reason. And they eventually work out if you continue to pursue your passion. So looking back, I'm so grateful that I didn't get into West Virginia and got to go to Springfield College because I have a whole

other set of amazing, phenomenal mentors from Springfield. I got to see a different way of training, learn from different people. And I actually think that's quite important for young professionals. I really value that I have a master's degree from a different place than my PhD. So I worked my butt off at Springfield, had a great time and then applied to West Virginia again. And this time I got in and even got a fellowship. And so it worked out for the best. So that's one lesson learned. And then my other sort of failure was when applying for jobs. You know, it's my last year at West Virginia. I'm doing my dissertation. I'm like overwhelmed with all that and some jobs came out. I applied. I really wasn't getting any interviews or anything. The job from Denver came out. And I kind of, as I usually do, procrastinated a little bit on applying for that job, because another job had come out at the same time with the deadline.

And I finally called Mark Alyagi, who's now my boss and director of the program at DU and, and said, you know, I'm interested, can I ask you some questions? And he said, you know, Jamie, I met him at conferences. So he knew me. He said, Jamie, we've already met and created our list of people we're interviewing. So, you know, you could, you could still apply. I'm not telling you not to apply because technically the applications are still open, but just want to be honest with where we are in our process and that we were moving ahead with interviews. And so I cried a little in my apartment. I was like, at the bottom of the barrel, hadn't heard anything about interviews, writing my dissertation. And I was mad, but I decided to apply anyway to DU. I said, I'm just going to send it in.

This is probably a waste of a few hours of my time, but whatever, you know, you never know what will happen. And, you know, a few months later, Mark called me again and said, Jamie, are you still interested in available in this job? And it was a halftime faculty position. So it wasn't a full time. And I said, yes, and yes, because I hadn't heard from anybody. And he said, you know, our search didn't work out. And, and you're right now the only person we're even looking at and considering. Wow. You're interested. So then I didn't cry. I mean, maybe I cried for joy at that point. But I said, Yes, I'm definitely interested and talking to one of my mentors, Sam Zizzy. And he said, Well, that's great. But first of all, tell Mark, you're not coming out until you defend your dissertation. And the second, are you really sure you want to consider a halftime faculty position and

moving across the country for a halftime faculty position? And I said, you know, it's a new program. It's a great program. It's in a great city. I was ready to live in a city after being in Morgantown. As much as I love Morgantown, I was ready to be in a city. And they did say eventually, they wanted it to go full time, they just didn't know when this was during the recession in 2009. And things

like that. So I took a chance, interviewed there went well, got offered the job was half time faculty my first year and went full time my second year. So a lesson learned from that a few lessons one, when the job description comes out, call, find out their timeline. Don't dilly-dally on that. And then take a chance. You know, it was a halftime position that most people wouldn't move across the country for. And I saw the opportunity there and decided to take it. And obviously, it's worked out.

This is my, almost my 10-year anniversary there. And it's really just a dream job, an amazing professional fit for me. It's a, like I said, a practice-focused program, and it's been amazing. Well, that's awesome. You know, I have a similar story in terms of, I did, I didn't get into my top choice or my PhD program either. And then it kind of came full circle where I talked to the faculty who is in charge of that program, like last month. And you know, he's kind of said, I've been following your career. I've been watching what you're doing. Great job. And I said, you know, I didn't get into your program. And he said, well, you didn't give me a call. Like I just applied, but kind of like what you did is you called Mark.

And so I think maybe I was too stuck in my comfort zone, the fear of rejection, not to pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm really interested in your program, you know, put myself out there. So and it did, it ended up, you know, perfect, because I'm really happy with where I'm at. So great story. So Jamie, you do some work with the US Paralympic teams. So like alpine skiing, snowboarding, you've worked with track and field. So tell us a little bit about that work and what you do for that. U.S. Paralympic teams. So like alpine skiing, snowboarding, you've worked with track and field. So tell us a little bit about that work and what you do for that. Sure. So I just want to give a little background for people out there who might not be familiar with what the Paralympics is. It's elite sport. It's elite level sport for athletes with physical disabilities. There are

a couple sports where they have a classification called intellectual disabilities, but for the most part, these are athletes with physical disabilities. So you'll see people in wheelchairs. You'll see people with prosthetics. There's also a class of visually impaired athletes, so blind athletes, and there's varying degrees of blindness. So that's just a background on some of the athletes that I'm working with in the Paralympics. And I got involved with that really, again, by luck, as most of us get some of our

opportunities by being in Denver. And the high performance director of US Paralympics wanted to expand their sports psychology services. They didn't have any sports psychology professionals on the ground in Sochi and realized they really needed someone there. So they reached out to a few of my colleagues at the University of Denver and two of us, Dr. Artur Poshfordovsky and I took a coffee meeting with the high performance director and it went well. He gave our names to some coaches and it took off from there. So he and I do quite a bit of co-consulting. So when I say we, I'm talking about Artur and I, that we do a lot of co-consulting with

some of the teams that we work with. So again, just taking a chance, taking that coffee meeting could have gone nowhere. And it happened to lead to these amazing opportunities that I've had for consulting and gotten to travel with teams. And it not only enriches me professionally, but helps enrich my teaching and that I can bring in confidential examples of what I'm going through as a consultant. You know, we're training consultants in sport performance psychology.

It's important that we as faculty members are out there, just like you, Sindra, also doing the practice so we can talk about what we're going through and our successes, but also our challenges. I think our students really appreciate, especially hearing about our challenges. They kind of look at us as invincible and like, we know what we're doing. And when we talk about, you know, I wasn't sure what to do there. That was really uncomfortable for me. I think they really appreciate that. Yeah, love it, love it.

So elite level sport, tell us a little bit about watching because I think of the world's best athletes, right? Tell us what you think kind of separates them from the rest. Sort of what I mean by that is those people who can do really well at the games. I know you've been to Pyeongchang this last Olympic cycle, but tell us about what do you see them doing that's different from others who don't even get there or who maybe don't thrive when they're at the highest level? Yeah, I think one thing I think about is being a student of the sport. So really learning about what it takes to be an excellent performer in that sport. And that would be physically, technically,

tactically, and mentally as well. So when I see athletes who are who are really excelling at that high level, they come to our meetings with a notebook, and they're taking notes. And they're really engaged and paying attention when the coaches have team meetings. And they're, I think for Paralympics, especially, although for able-bodied sport, there's equipment, right? But for Paralympics, they have prosthetics, they have special equipment, like the skiers have mono skis, the track and field athletes have racing wheelchairs. So they're learning about the equipment, they learn how to fix it, they learn how to use it to its highest capabilities. And so they're really studying what it takes to get to that high level as well as mentally. And I think they have, in addition, just a high level of self-awareness of what works

for them. And they capitalize on that. And they also have a self-awareness of what they need to improve or continue to work on. So I also say, athletes at the highest level, I think are really good, what I call or not what I call, but what the field calls, reflective performers that they're reflecting after each performance after each practice day after each competition, you know, after a season, and really thinking, you know, what's going well? And how do I continue to build on that? And what do I need to improve? And how do I go about doing that? Is it the mental piece? Is it the physical piece? Is it both? You know, what are my resources

for improving on those things that I need to improve? And how do I really engage those resources? So we definitely have some athletes who utilize our services more than others. And I think those are those people who realize, you know, I have to improve on that mental game. And we have Artur and Jamie and Sarah Mitchell's the full time sports psychologist at the USOC right now for Paralympics. And so they they engage us more so than maybe some of the other athletes. And what would you say in terms of what are their challenges in terms of competing, like with a physical disability? You know, what do you see them struggling with either from like, just a technical standpoint, maybe a mental standpoint, perhaps?

Yeah, I think the mental piece is quite similar to able bodied athletes. Of course, there's confidence issues and focus and motivation. And some things may be specific to the Paralympic athletes with confidence. You know, I just met with some athletes who have only been racing for two seasons and they're already at the international level. So the trajectory for Paralympic athletes sometimes, because there's not as big of a pool of athletes athletes is that they can get to that international level that elite level really quickly and so they haven't necessarily developed the the mental skills that are needed to compete at such a high level with the pressure that they're under so that might

be specific to them motivation as well could come into play I I think, as you know, many athletes start out, I love this, I love the feeling of this. And then it becomes a job. And there's expectations of medal counts and podiums and sponsorships, and it can take a toll. I think for Paralympic athletes to the money may not stipends may not be the same. And so they're working full time jobs, or they're going to college. And to fit in the level of training that the coaches require with those full-time jobs or school can be really difficult for some of these athletes. That's what I've seen. And some are able to full-time be an athlete and they get that money and sponsorships, but many of them don't. Yeah, absolutely.

And Jamie, what do you see? You said kind of the mental skills needed to compete at the highest level and do well, despite the pressure, you know, and I know we have all this academic literature that tells us, okay, what mental skills are needed to be able to do that. But what do you really see, you know, the people that did well, what did you see? What are the mental skills that they used when they were competing there I think the the planning and being able to execute the plan so working on I'm talking specific to the sports I work with skiing and snowboarding having a plan you know a pre-competition pre-race plan thinking to that but also being flexible because as you know especially at a game situation there's all sorts of distractions there's you know there could

be delays there's weather issues so we had some days where there was weather and they had to reschedule so being flexible with their plans and resilient with those plans and really being able to roll with it um but then when they're in the start gate they do their routine and I want to say during the course I think this is true of any athlete staying present and having cues to help them stay present so having you know usually we talk to them about technique cues whether they're leaning or dropping a shoulder whatever they want to focus on you know we're not experts of the sport. I wasn't a competitive skier. So really talking to them about where do you want your focus during this run, and them executing it, staying really present during the run, being able to roll, you know,

skiing conditions constantly change. So they have to be really adaptable to the condition. So developing that mental flexibility, I think is very important for certain sports, like where conditions are changing. And then again, reflecting. So we often met with athletes at the finish line to say, okay, how did that go? What went well? What do you want your focus to be next time? It was really quick, but it helped them process what their focus would be for next time. If it was at the end of the day, it would be a similar type processing. What went well? What could have been better? But what do you want your focus for tomorrow? Or if they were totally down in competition, doing a larger processing of that. Love that. So what went well and where do you want your focus tomorrow? There's nothing negative in there, like what didn't go well, right? So you're helping them stay focused on the positive,

but this idea that focus can be manipulated or changed or, you know, that we have control of that. So I like that question. Jamie, what do you see in terms of, is there a topic or a technique that you kind of see yourself talking about a lot with the athletes that you work with to help them, you know, just master the mental game? in our program in the graduate program we're really big on talking about theoretical orientation to performance excellence and I've talked about mine with the students and I've called it mind your mental energy so mind being like using our mind but also pay attention

to where your mental energy is and I talk to athletes a lot about that they only have a finite amount of mental energy, just like physical energy. And some athletes are taught really well how to manage their physical energy. And I think especially with athletes with disabilities, some of them could get fatigued quite quickly, and they have to be really careful about how they manage their physical energy. So we talked a lot about managing your mental energy and how you're spending it and spending it on things that are productive.

And I use the word productive very intentionally. I don't use the word positive. I think many athletes come back and say, you know, I just had a terrible run or I just fell or whatever it might be. Like, I'm not going to be positive after that. And I totally get that, especially as a gymnast. You know, you fall off the beam, you don't feel good about it. But can you refocus to something productive and helpful for you? I think you can even if you feel negative. So we talked a lot about what what's the most productive place to put your

energy and it might be it might be being positive, it might be encouraging yourself, or it could be what's my technique word right now? Or what's my technique focus? So that's more of a neutral thing. So so productive mental energy is something I'm constantly talking to athletes about. It's a lot about what's in their control. Many athletes are focusing on things outside their control, whether it's an issue with a coach or a teammate winter sports definitely the weather and the conditions and that's all out of their control so it's like what's what would be more productive to spend your mental energy on right now awesome i love that i love that you're choosing productive over positive and you know

that it's really, again, empowering them that they can control this mental energy. I think so many times, we focus on things we can't control, maybe we spin on something negative, you're overthinking. So what do you see in terms of what gets in the way of people having, you know, this productive mental energy? I think, well, one thing you just said overthinking, I think that's so common, especially with our analytical athletes, that they're analyzing every single thing. And that can actually interfere in the brain with their motor programs. So I like bringing up the KISS principle quite a bit. And I say, keep it simple and smart. Ah, good. So keep it simple and smart. Simplify things because we need to kind of quiet the brain

in order to let those movement patterns go. Like we want athletes to go out there and do their automatic movement patterns. And when there's other, what I call noise in the brain, whether it's distractions or overthinking, it blocks the ability for that movement program or motor program to execute. So definitely simplifying things, I think, is really important.

Awesome. And so what was it like for you, Jamie, to be at Pyeongchang with the athletes supporting them, traveling as a consultant, to really be there to serve, right? Like you're not there for you. You're there to support them. So tell us a little bit about what that journey was like for you. That was definitely a highlight of my career aside from getting the job at University of Denver. But it was a highlight. It was the culmination of almost four years of work with some of these teams. And like I said, there was no one on the ground in Sochi and the high performance director, Matt Kramer, brought three sports psychology professionals out to Pyeongchang. So he really took a chance with us and felt really good about having those resources on the ground. So for me personally, I was really aware based on my experiences over the last four years of managing my own energy.

That I could be a good support for the athletes. I had been to the Parapan Am Games and I was the only sports psych person there. I had traveled with other teams and I just noticed that managing my energy was really difficult because you are on, as a consultant, from the minute you wake up, kind of, to going to bed.

You're eating with the athletes, you're watching them train. And then when the coaches get a break, you're meeting with individual athletes to do mental check-ins with them. So it's very tiring. And it was important to me to manage my energy in Pyeongchang. I was there for almost three weeks.

Wow. So that was the longest I had traveled with the team as well. I feel very grateful and lucky that there were three of us there because we definitely kept each other in check to make sure we weren't doing too much or if someone seemed really kind of stressed or burnout, we were able to check in with each other and say, why don't you take the night off or let's go for a workout, whatever it might be. And we, instead of going on the bus with the athletes at four or five in the morning to the mountain, we went around seven, which was after their inspection.

And we could still check in with them. But I think in the past, we might have been like, yes, we have to be on that bus with the athletes in the morning. And then we would have been just totally burnt out by the end of it. So I was happy with the energy management piece. But some of the work that we did there, we checked in with athletes a lot. And what was really nice about that experience was I felt like they finally knew how to use us. Yeah, that's awesome.

Before that, they like weren't sure. Should I approach Art tour and jamie i don't know how this is gonna go and by that point they knew okay we're gonna check in about the race plan in the morning and talk about any concerns we have and then check in with them at the end of our run and before the next run and we were some of the only staff down at the finish line because the coaches were up on the course. And so it was nice for them to have someone to check in at the bottom of their run right when they finished. So it was fresh in their minds how it went.

We met with them. We stayed in the Olympic Village. So some of them requested some longer meetings, especially if they felt some nerves. Or maybe it was just to review their plans with us just for a confidence boost. And that's some of the work that we were able to do. We sat in on team meetings and piped in every now and then if we had something to say. But for the most part, you know, we balanced between checking in with them, but also just sitting back and letting them do their thing. We didn't want to be one more distraction or obligation that they had to do when they were already under so much pressure at the games. Absolutely. Well, I'm hearing a lot about like, how you are the performer and you have to manage yourself. I think we can all relate to

that no matter what our profession is, is like, how are we managing ourselves to using our own mental skills to serve others? Yeah. So tell us about like, what was a highlight for you? You know, like maybe it was a performance of an athlete, maybe it was just being there. And like a specific moment that you remember that you were really grateful for, but anything come to mind on like, just a really cool moment? Well, I think what I said before about the fact that I felt I didn't get sick, I felt good by the end. And that we felt like I said we felt really helpful to the athletes and it was awesome just to feel like okay we know when to use Artur and Jamie and Sarah or or not there was an interesting story I have which was I definitely had to use my own composure mental

skills for but at the start line I had an athlete come over to me who I'd been working with for a few years and said, I don't know what to do. Like before her run. And I was like, what? You know, this is an elite level athlete. And so I'm trying to stay composed. Like, yes, you do know what to do. And let's talk about why. And we also had cameras circling us while having this conversation. So both of us just trying to block out that distraction and have a conversation to get

her in the headspace where she could race and do well. Because she, in her qualifying runs, just wasn't performing as well as she could. And so she was really nervous for the final run. And I said, yeah, you do know what to do. Let's talk about why. And she listed some of the reasons. And we also went through an imagery script of the course. So she closed her eyes and went through it and went through all her cues, and was a little bit calmer after that. So I'm certainly not taking credit, she happened to do really well. Like, yeah, could have gone the other way. But, you know, even if I

was just a tiny part of being able to calm her down and get her to be able to focus on what she needed to do, that was kind of a cool moment where she had to use her mental skills, but I also had to keep my composure. Absolutely. I saw it with cameras circling us, which is obviously not something I had ever experienced before. Yeah, and what I also hear is like you really knew her to be able to think about what the imagery script is right on the spot and to know what her cues are. You had to really had developed that relationship with her and understood her to be able to give her that, you know, brief intervention in that moment. Yeah, that's definite brief intervention. I also want to talk about some struggles I had there. I think that's

important for listeners to hear. For sure. That, you know, there were certainly a lot of highlights. It's awesome to watch athletes even working with get a medal, succeed, just have a really great performance. But then it's really, really hard to watch athletes not perform the way that they wanted to and expect a medal and not get one. So that was that was hard for me to to just manage my own emotions, you know, as sports like consultants were usually taught to like, stay really neutral in terms of emotions. And that was hard for me not to get like super excited when the athletes did well, but also not to get super disappointed when they did. And I think my go to intervention is reframing a lot.

So reframing, again, to look at something more productive or positive. And there was an athlete that, you know, was super disappointed after a run, came over, and I went to the reframe, and it was just too soon for that. And I really felt like I should have just sat with him in those emotions and validated them a little bit longer. And he was able the next day, he was a new person and was happy to go to closing ceremonies and he was fine then. And that would have been a more appropriate time. But in that,

in that moment, I think I struggled with, what do you, what do you say, you know, to someone who didn't have a good games and didn't meet their expectations. And I think what I learned is really just sitting with them and that and letting them lead, you know, whatever they kind of need in that moment and meeting them where they're at. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because from my own experience, it's really difficult not to tie your own identity into like, when you're helping people perform well, and if they do well or not, I've had to really manage that as well and gotten better at it over time. But, you know, a couple, five years ago was really

difficult for me. And I like what you're saying is that maybe the reframe or the intervention is too quick. I had an experience with a college football team who I worked with for many years, like seven years. And last year, they were really working to get to the national championship game, they didn't make it. And I remember kind of shortly after the game, I was talking to one of our quarterbacks and, and did kind of talk about reframing, it was way too soon. You know, you're right, because you have to kind of sit with it and make sense of it yourself before maybe you're applying a different positive perspective or productive perspective, if I use your word. Yeah, yeah, Jamie. So one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about was your

experience as a gymnast at Brown. And from my own experience working with gymnasts, I think that it can be such a difficult sport from a mental standpoint, because there's a lot of fear and anxiety that can take place, particularly if you have fallen or, you know, had an injury. So maybe to start us off, tell us a little bit about your experience just as a gymnast and what that was like for you. And then we can dive into sort of like the mental game about gymnastics. Yeah, so I did club gymnastics up to level 10 in New Jersey, which is where I grew up, and then made the team at Brown University. And I was on the team for four years. You know, I had injuries throughout my career.

But my first real major injury was freshman year at Brown. It was the day before our first meet. So my first college meet ever. And I tore my ACL on a dismount on bars. And bars was not my best event. And I shouldn't have probably been competing in any way. But they, at the time, freshmen to to trade all four events. And so I remember being so exhausted before this routine, but I did it anyway and and blew my knee on the dismount and floor. And this is one of my mental examples was I did great on beam. My sophomore year, I was one of the most consistent people. And so I was known as consistent gymnast on the beam. And then junior year, I came back

and fell in almost every meet. So it wasn't my physical talent, because in practice, I nailed it. And so they kept putting me in the lineup because they knew I had the potential. But I think because I had this label and this pressure of being the consistent beam person, then for some reason, junior year, I just couldn't get it together. And I did, even though I didn't have a sports like professional, that's when I really wish I did. I did a lot of video watching and imagery. And I think what ultimately worked, I finally nailed my routine. And one of the postseason meets was using technique cue words. So and I use this a lot with athletes I work with as well, in developing what a woman named Allison Arnold, she does some sports psychology work with gymnastics, she developing what a woman named Allison Arnold, she does some sports psychology

work with gymnastics. She calls it mental choreography. So in gymnastics for floor routine and beam routine, we get them choreographed. We have choreography for the routines and, and she calls it mental choreography where you come up with cue words or it could be sounds or it could be phrases or, you you know whatever works for the person some people sing to themselves during the routine so that works of just that keeps you present and focused and not worried about falling or or getting too ahead of yourself and getting too excited when you're in a good routine so there are times that on balance beam when yes I got all my major skills stuck and then you do a little turn and

bobble because you're too ahead of yourself or too excited. So mental choreography really keeps you present and focused on what you need to do. And that's ultimately, I think what works for me on beam to get back to it. And senior year, unfortunately, I had a another injury, I had an ankle injury, so was unable to compete. I definitely because it was my senior year, unfortunately, I had another injury. I had an ankle injury. So I was unable to compete. I definitely, because it was my senior year and I knew it was my last year of gymnastics ever, tried to push it too hard too soon, injured my ankle even more, and finally competed, I think, in my last meet. So I ended on a good note, but it certainly wasn't the senior season I had imagined.

And by the end of that, my body was ready to be done. So people ask if I was sad to be done with gymnastics. And it was certainly such a big part of my life. But my body was like, please stop doing this. So happy, my mind kind of had to catch up. And I certainly missed being part of a team and things like that. But I was lucky to transition while I was at Springfield College, I was able for some of my graduate school funding to coach the Division III team there. And that helped me, I think, with my transition out of the sport. So, Jamie, can you give us an example or two of like this mental choreography and the technique keywords?

Like what helped you, particularly, you know, that junior year that you're talking about be more consistent in the end? Yeah, they're really short words. So they probably won't make sense to people probably won't make sense to anyone but me but I would go through my routine and I would say okay arms push go extend tight you know just the very again you want to the KISS principle you want to keep it simple because if you're really telling yourself sentences you don't have time for that in the middle of a back handspring layout, you don't have time to actually break it down and tell yourself each technique it takes. So if you can encapsulate that, you know, the back handspring in one word, and like I said, it might be push, feet, lift, arms, and like, that's what helped keep me focused. So really short words. And for some people, it might be sounds.

Like some people might be like, boom, bam, things like that, that that helped them through their routine. That's awesome. Do you have any other strategies or techniques that you think help help gymnasts be more present and then so they're less likely to experience that fear, anxiety that can cause injury or, you know, falling. I wanted to talk a little bit about mental blocks. I think that's something so common in gymnastics. And I saw it with teammates, I experienced it a little bit. And I see it a lot with clients. That's when clients call me usually when they're having a mental block. And what that means is all of a sudden you can't do a skill that you previously were able to do. In some other sports, they call it the yips. Yeah, exactly. Right. So pitchers all of a sudden can't throw a pitch. So mental blocks is the terminology used in gymnastics. And it's really tough. I think

everyone's gonna work through it differently. But one thing that I think is really important is to try to reduce the pressure on the person to get that skill back. Often, the coach is like, okay, come on, why can't you do this? Let's keep working on it. And the parent is constantly asking about it. And obviously the gymnast is super upset and worried about it. And so all of that pressure, like we talked about before, is interfering in the brain with what their body knows how to do, that motor program. And so I actually think a lot of coaches and parents should sort of ignore it.

So maybe not let them get away with it, but say, okay, like you're going to do it again when you're ready and not keep asking and putting pressure on the person to do it, because that actually usually makes it a lot worse. And I have heard from some gymnasts, even at like a college level or high level that they never did this certain skill again, like they just never got it back. And to me, that's, I think, could be worked through. One thing to do to build that confidence, that mental piece, is the gradual progression of the skill. It's almost start learning the skill over again, and going back to, okay, what does it take to learn about cancelling? You do it,

you know, you do a back walkover, and then you can do it over a rolling mat, and then you do it with a spot, and then you do it on a soft mat, and you do it on a hard mat. So building that confidence by those smaller progressions towards the skill, I think is really important, but it takes time. It's like relearning a skill. I think developing, like I talked about before, those technique words could be really helpful because that keeps the person in the skill instead of thinking like, oh my God, why am I not doing this? Or I might fall or I might injure myself. And something I think is so important, if possible, is finding video of the gymnast doing that skill. If they don't have one of themselves, I think they can look at someone else doing that skill,

if they don't have one of themselves doing it. And then practicing imagery while watching that video so like feeling themselves go through that skill that kinesthetic sense we call it in sports psychology while watching video and then eventually hopefully they could do the imagery themselves without watching video and then hopefully that once they start feeling it in their body again the brain firing to their body the way it would physically that hopefully they're able to transfer that a little bit more when they get back in the gym. That's great, Jamie. I think about so many times where I've heard athletes, yeah, they think that they've lost a skill. That's maybe what they would say, right? I'm thinking of figure skaters or gymnasts, or I just was talking to a baseball coach that was talking about yips. And I think sometimes what can happen is like we generalize, we think like, oh, one time we, we couldn't use that we didn't

do this skill. Oh my gosh, I lost it. Right. Or, you know, one particular event happens. And then we say we're in a slump, you know, kind of generalize the language there. I appreciate your strategies. Excellent. Is there anything else that you want to make sure that you're sharing with us today? I just want to encourage people who are interested in this field to follow their passion. You know, it's about passion first. I know that's something you really love talking about. You know, we have people in the field who say, okay, this is the path to take. And if you want the most jobs, this is the path to take. And people certainly gave me advice of like, become a licensed psychologist, and that's going to open the most jobs, this is the path to take. And people certainly gave me advice of like, become a

licensed psychologist, and that's going to open the most doors. And I personally like loved counseling, but didn't feel passionate enough to do a doctoral program in clinical psychology or counseling and stuck with what I really wanted to do. And that was teaching and consulting. And, and I eventually got to where I want to be. So, you know, listen to people's advice, but really follow what feels right to you. And then you're going to get there. You know, I think sometimes when people take others' advice and it doesn't feel quite right,

then they realize that's not the path they should be on and they drop out or they switch careers or whatever it might be. So I guess do what feels right to you. And same with athletes, right? Like trust your training, trust yourself. If something's not feeling right, speak up and take charge of your own training. And it's easy to do for older athletes that I'm sort of working with now. For youth athletes, it's a little bit harder. And I would just say to parents and coaches,

I am so big on positive youth development through sport. And I think there's a way to coach and still get really good results and develop competitive athletes by doing it in a positive way and something that's going to enhance someone's development, not hurt it. Awesome. So how can people find you, Jamie? Are you on social media? Or what's the ways people can reach out and follow what you're doing? Sure. I have some web pages mostly through the University of Denver. So if they search Jamie Shapiro, University of Denver, they'll find that page with more of my academic accomplishments on it. And then for if they want a consultant, then they can look on the Sport and Performance Excellence Consultants website, which is specs, S-P-E-X, consultants.com. And it lists all of our consultants,

but they could certainly find me there as well as my email. Awesome. Jamie, here are the things that I got from this interview. So I took four, which is a lot. I love what you talked about related to reflective performances and how the best athletes you've worked with like reflect on each of their performances in a way that like they think about what went well and then what do I need to respond. And I loved how you talked about how you even

debrief an event or a performance with an athlete. You ask them what went well and then where does my focus need to be? And I love that because it was not negative, but helping them direct their focus and helping them think about that they have control over that focus. And then the last two pieces, the third piece would be, you know, how your mind or mind your mental energy and the importance of being productive with that mental energy. And I think anybody who is listening can apply that idea of, you know, being productive with our thinking. And then loved your thoughts on mental blocks and just the different strategies that we can use to help people overcome mental blocks. So I'm grateful

that you spent the time with us. I know your time is valuable, so I'm grateful for that. Do you have any final advice or thoughts for high performers who are listening today? Well, what you were just summarizing that, Sindra, the productive piece, the having productive thinking, I think it's important for everyone to think about how they can apply that to different areas of performance in their life. So not just sport, but their work life, their performing arts, or a high risk occupation, but also just in general in their life, their performing arts, or a high-risk occupation, but also just in general in their life with their relationships, with their families, with their exercise as well. So I hope people can take that productive mindset to many different aspects of their life.

Awesome, Jamie. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Cedros. It was awesome. So good to chat with you. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you liked today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend, and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Cydra's free weekly videos, check out DrCydra.com.