High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 268: The Flipside of Failing with Sarah McVanel, Speaker, Author & Coach

Episode Date: August 8, 2019

Sarah McVanel helps individuals leverage the exponential power of recognition to retain top talent, fuel healthy teams and sustain healthy bottom lines. She speaks nationally on the topic, leads workshops, coaches leaders, and conducts organizational recognition program reviews. Sarah specializes in working with service-based organizations and “helping professionals”. Sarah is a Certified Senior Organizational Development Professional (CSODP), Professional Certified Coach (PCC) and Certified Human Resources Leader (CHRL). She is one of 1500 Certified Professional Speakers (CSP) in worldwide and President of the Toronto Chapter of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers (CAPS). She has a BA in Psychology, MSc in Family Relations, and Diplomas in Human Resources and Healthcare Administration. Sarah 20 experience including at a senior leadership level and now owns boutique firm Greatness Magnified. She is an author of peer-reviewed journals, articles, four books, “Forever Recognize Others’ Greatness: Solution Focused Strategies for Satisfied Staff, High Performing Teams and Healthy Bottom Lines” (2015), “The FROG Effect: Tools and Strategies to Forever Recognize Others’ Greatness” (2016), #GreatnessBizHacks: 100+ Tips to Grow a Profitable, Service-Based Biz you Love!& FLIP Side of Failing: How to Recognize and Leverage Greatness in Work and Life (2019). In this podcast, Sarah and Cindra talk about: The contents from her new book FLIPSIDE of Failing How the best are constantly looking for failure Her FLIP Framework (see picture) Why it is important to flip failure in the moment Her ACCEPT vs ACCUSE Framework (see picture) How businesses and leaders can help other celebrate failure

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and I'm so grateful that you're here, ready to listen to episode 268 with Sarah McVannell. Now, the goal of these interviews is to really learn from the world's best. The world's best authors, speakers, coaches, consultants, athletes, and leaders,

all about the topic of mindset to really help us be at our best consistently day after day, to help us be high performers. And if you know that mindset is essential to your success, then this is the podcast for you where we explore everything related to mindset. And in today's interview, I interviewed Sarah McVannell, who I know from the speaking world. She just became one of the few certified professional speakers in the world.

I just saw her at the National Speakers Association, which I attend. And I'm also in the same mastermind as Sarah. And so I learned more about her book, read her book on the way home from the National Speakers Association Conference. And I couldn't wait to have her on this podcast, particularly because her book is all about failing and really how the best are constantly looking for failure. So let me tell you a little bit about Sarah.

She helps individuals leverage the exponential power of recognition to attain top talent, fuel healthy teams, and sustain healthy bottom lines. She speaks nationally on the topic. She leads workshops and coaches leaders, as well as conducts organizational recognition program reviews. Sarah specializes in working with service-based organizations and helping professionals. She is a certified senior organizational development professional, a professional certified coach,

and a certified human resources leader. She is one of 1,500 certified professional speakers in the world, and she's also the president of the Toronto chapter of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers, also known as CAPS. She has a BA in psychology and a master's in family relations. And Sarah has over 20 years of experience, including at the senior level, and now owns a firm called Greatness Magnified. So she's the author of several peer-reviewed journals, articles, and four books. The book that we're talking about today is The Flipside of Failing, How to Recognize and Leverage Greatness in Work and in Life. Now you'll want to go over and check out the show notes over at cindracampoff.com slash

Sarah, because in the show notes we talk about, or I included, the different pictures and the frameworks that are part of her book, The Flipside of Failing. So let me tell you a little bit about what Sarah and I talk about. We talk really, the focus of this interview is about the flipside of failing and why the best are constantly looking for failure. She describes her flip framework, her accept versus accuse framework, and both of those are over on the show notes page, and why it's really important to flip failure in the moment. She also gives us some guidance on how businesses and leaders can help others celebrate failure. Now, I know you're going to enjoy this interview today with Sarah McVannell. And again, you can head over to the show notes at cindracampoff.com slash Sarah.

And you can also find Sarah and I both on Twitter. We'd love to hear what you thought about this interview, what stood out to you, what did you learn about failure that you didn't know before. And you can find Sarah at Sarah McVannell on Twitter and myself at Mentally Underscore Strong. All right, without further ado, let's bring on Sarah. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset. Today, I'm excited to welcome Sarah McVannell. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Cintra, so good to be here. I'm really looking forward to talking to you. We just spent, you know, several days, four or five days in Denver at the National Speakers Association. And so I was able

to talk to you quite often and get your book, Flipside of Failing. And so I'm really excited today to talk to you about it. And I read it yesterday on the plane. Power reader. I love it. And what I liked, you know, at first I thought, well, what is she going to say about failure that I haven't really thought about? But there are so many different ways that you connected failure to you today about failing and just in general about like why it's important for people to fail because I think people always you know maybe maybe don't always see the benefit yeah well and why I'm so excited to speak with you is because you're of course changing careers and lives and you're helping transform right there on the front line as a high performance coach and the work that you do, you know, with the Vikings and it's just, woohoo, go Vikings.

Well, awesome. So maybe, you know, to start us off, Sarah, just tell us a bit about how you got to where you are now, you know, as a professional speaker, just to kind of, you know, just generally how you got to where you are. Yeah, really quickly. I was always the speaker in the household. I think my family used to probably pay me off on road trips to not speak. And so I didn't really realize this was actually a thing. This was actually a career. I'll actually be curious to ask you one day, what your path was. And when I did work in corporate, you're always giving presentations, you're always training, you're always doing small mini group training to do really, you know, excellence coaching and training for your, your small,

small staff groups that report to you. So I just, you know, when a life crisis hit and this was actually how I begin my failing book, as I talk about that, that story and my son had a mental health crisis. And yet I was so on the treadmill, the one that we all think we need to be on around the bigger house and then the second house and the cars and the, you know, and you just end up having no choices in your life and you think you're doing everything right. And in that moment, I realized that we felt totally stuck and we're not living the life we're supposed to lead.

So in that moment of feeling like a failure, I just, I realized there needed to be a different way. And I quit my corporate job, completely freaked out. My parents were entrepreneurs. They're like, no, don't give away the pension and the benefits. Don't become an entrepreneur. Don't do what we did. It was not glamorous when you were growing up.

Why would you think it'd be better now? So, but it was just, I just knew it was the right thing. It was not glamorous when you were growing up. Why would you think it'd be better now? So, but it was just, I just knew it was the right thing. I was willing to fail to be able to not fail in the most important thing in my world, which is to be a good mom to both my kids. And of course to be a good wife too, because it's, it's a stressful thing we were all going through. And so I just, you know, I launched my business with zero plan. I don't know if you have that kind of strategic planning in your business model syndrome, but I just started

and, and with no plan B and actually turns out I'm kind of good at this. And awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Well, part of it is surrounding myself with really positive, influential rock stars like you. So that's, you know, that's part of the equation, everybody. You're the best version of the five people you spend the most time with, right? So I just, as part of my speaking, as part of my business, I launched into speaking and not only does it feel like home, it also allows me to have the biggest reach of, you know, my core message, which is around recognition. How, how do you recognize people so that they, uh, corporations retain their best people so that even recognition at home, like that's what we did. That was one of the things that healed our family. So when it came

to, you know, the speaking career, it was very much having people who say, Hey, Sarah, you know, I know you're already doing a lot of training, but why don't you do this in front of larger groups? I think your audience, there's a bigger audience for you out there. And, and joined CAPS, Canadian Association of Professional Speakers, tons of support, so much learning. They're amazing organizations. If anyone is thinking about speaking, even if you're not speaking yet, or if you are speaking and you don't have a community around you to support you, to grow your business, to help you commiserate with you when you're experiencing challenges, to give you the latest tools, join community because it just, it allows us to do a better job by our businesses being more successful and reduces the likelihood that we define success as the opposite of failure

in business. But actually it's just, as I'm sure we can both attest to, it's learning something, trying it, not working out, sometimes not working out multiple times, still something sort of takes us back out. And that's really, I think, what brought me to the speaking associations is just needing that community so that I had a place, ironically, way before I ever wrote the book, I had a place, ironically, way before I ever wrote the book, I had a place where I could stumble and still have somebody to help pull me up or to validate, yeah, I've been there too. You just keep on, you got to keep on going through that, that valley. Yeah, for sure. So as we jump into this, Sarah, tell us a little bit more about like how

you define failure, because you just said something that I think kind of gets at the definition, but I thought we should just be really clear on like what it means to you as we get into this conversation. Well, the interesting thing is when I went to write this book, it was actually supposed to be a book on greatness because my brand is forever recognize others greatness. So I wanted the greatness motivational book, but it was so boring. And I had interviewed all these amazing people to write this book. And I thought, I can't not write the book. I'm disappointing all these famous, accomplished people, people that took all this time and other busy schedules. And actually what I noticed,

the only theme that came up completely unsolicited in every single interview was failure. And most of them defined it in a very different way than how we define it, or I mean, at least how I defined it, I don't know about you, Sindhra. And that is failures are textbook or dictionary definition of it's a failure is a lack of success and a failure to basically pivot, adjust, and to be able to be adaptable. And I realized through every one of these interviews, again, not that we were even looking for this, that they actually don't do it that way. They constantly are striving for failure. They set themselves up for a bigger job. You know, I interviewed a national, the biggest award-winning speaker in Canada. He said, I don't even have a university education, but I knew I was going to be the top journalist

at the top station in Canada. And so I just kept putting myself out there and doors slammed in my face all the time, but I expected it. You know, and every time an Olympian, as you know, Cinder, all your high performance athletes, if they want to achieve something bigger with their body, their body's not like, oh good, I've been waiting for this. It's pain, it's grind, it's like, oh, you know, sometimes you have to completely change your technique in order to reach that level of performance.

So, you know, in a nutshell, defining failure by lack of success rips us off and it's not true. Actually not maintaining and sustaining the resiliency to be able to see what is actually possible. Ah, I love it. So seeing failure as resiliency, not a lack of success. And so tell us what you mean by like the flip side of failure. Cause I'm getting a sense of what you mean, but you're just for other people. Yeah. So the flip stands for fail because you have to have a triggering event when there's a failure and how that, by the way, for all the listeners out there, I'm not going to, I'm giving you definitions and context and frameworks, but you get to define what you think is a failure. Because for one person, it's a bad date. For somebody else, their marriage broke down. For somebody else,

they had a fight with their kids or whatever that is. So you define the failure. And I suspect you will continually evolve that definition. So when we have that failure, that triggering event, then we have the opportunity to learn from it. And probably most listeners have heard the acronym, first attempt in learning is what FAIL stands for. So the connection between failure and learning is out there. However, when we study people who are high performers versus low, we notice that the threshold for being willing to fail and then learn from it is very low in the high performers or in the low performers and the high performers, they expect it. They don't let it stand in their way. They jump back up. They keep on going over and over and over again. They're

the ones who practice longer, practice. Somebody said, I can't remember who now is simply, um, you know, controlled failure and, and that is your path. So then the eyes ignite because what if that makes you so excited? Like what? Wow. I like my body can do, I can, I can get my body to perform this much better. Or, um, I, you know, yeah, I got rejections, but this time I only got eight and not 20 this week. You know, you, you have to be able to see, and what, how is that exciting? Like I, you know, you could still see your career. You can see what's possible or the fact that you're struggling inspired somebody else. And they're like, wow, you know, if he can do that, if he can fail all those times and still

keep coming back and be the last one in the gym, working out, maybe that's like what truly being passionate about what football is, you know? And, um, and then the, the P is praise. And this is what really connects to my core brand, but I think it's, it's an important thing that we often don't talk about. And that is sure. You can praise people and yourself when things are going well, but what about when things aren't going well? I love it. Yeah. When you can unconditionally acknowledge yourself and others. Now that is true unconditional recognition. So how could we, whether it be in our training situation, in your family environment, in your corporate team, on a new project, whatever that is, when you can recognize what's, ask yourself what is working, even when it seems like you're in the storm of disappointment. There's always something that's working. Always something.

And Sarah, would you actually tell us to praise ourselves? You know, because what I'm thinking about is the high performers I know, you know, many of them are very, very hard on themselves. And I think that maybe like beating themselves up after failure is actually good. Like it's going to motivate them or, you know, it's going to make them more dedicated. Are you kind of saying the opposite and tell us more about like how you might tell people to praise themselves? Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that because we have so much literature coming out of the field of positive psychology, which is only about 25 years old now that actually validates your point around when we only focus on what's not working, our brain chemistry actually changes.

When we focus on what is working, then we can leverage not only that brain chemistry, but because we're not flooded with cortisol, which also then limits our physical ability, it's not just, you know, so much of this is the mental game as well as the physical because we can't separate the two. And I'm raising competitive athletes right now myself. They're not quite as hyper, you know, at that elite level as the folks that you work with, Zyndra. But, you know, my son, who was struggling, struggling, struggling with schooling all

his life with mental health and anxiety, he decided he wanted to join rowing. Rowing's a big thing where we are in Canada. We have the second nicest rowing course in the world. So, you know, just a little plug for Niagara, Ontario. Exactly. I'd like to come visit you soon. Oh my gosh. And we'll hop in a skull and we will try it for the first time. It's so breathtaking. And, you know, to get in a boat where the very first day of your training season, there's still ice in the water. You know, you are with teammates that you don't know. You are trying a sport that you have been just training on land to do, but you actually don't know what it truly takes off of an erg or outside of an Olympic erg system.

You know, at our local university, they can in all winter, the land training. So all that stuff is priming you, but there is nothing like when you actually get in that boat. And when you quote, catch a crab where the oar can come back and whip you in the chin and slash your cheek or bang your teammate or throw you out of the boat into the icy water. And so each you have for those guys, for these young teenagers, hormonal as they are to quit because they caught a crab and everybody can see it and they razz them and make fun of them.

If they quit that because they failed, I mean, not only can you not get back to shore, I mean, there's just some short term practical solutions, but, but also you just have to learn how to erase when the weather is terrible or on a day when you're freaking tired because you woke up at four in the morning and you were studying late the night before, or it's just an off day for you. If you beat yourself up in that moment, you know what's going to happen? You're going to keep catching crabs. You're not going to be able to find your rhythm. You're not going to be able to focus. You've got to get refocused.

And you let your whole team down if you can't get focused. So you have to flip failure in that moment. You have to be like, okay, I've got to adjust to the environment. I've got to adjust to different people being in my boat than yesterday. I do have to adjust to the fact that I had five hours sleep. And maybe in that moment, you're not thinking because, yay, I'm a rock star. I studied the night before. In that moment, it's just like, no, we just got to get our job done. So if we obsess about being perfect, we've all heard the expression, perfect's the enemy of progress. Sometimes you just have to make progress. And out of that progress is actually going to be the success. If every single moment were a peak moment in our career, how boring would that?

It'd be like living at Disneyland. Every day is cotton candy and rides and mouse ears and theme music. Even the biggest Disney fan, I would suspect, 365 days would not want to be a visitor in their theme park. I'm guessing. There may be the odd one who would dispute that with me. So we can't have peak all the time because how are you supposed to really cherish and reflect and notice the power of those days that were, you know, were your, your, that was your, your victory story. That was your hero's journey that day because man, was it a grind? So I love what you said, Sarah, about like flipping failure in that moment. And

I think it takes a lot of like psychological skills. Like it takes like work to do that and practice to do that and to be able to do that in the moment. And one of the other things I really enjoyed about your book is really early on, you made a list of times you failed. Yeah. Well, what you're doing is just kind of normalizing failure. And so what I'd like us to do is like, tell us about a

story that you failed and what you learned from it and what people can learn from it. Maybe how you might've used a flip idea. Yeah. I mean, you failed. Yeah. I'd love to do that. And if you're game too, I'd love to invite you to share that as well. Okay. Okay. Okay. I love it. You're open for anything. What's funny? I care so much about you, Cyncia. So here's a little example. I started my business and I didn't really know what I was doing, but I really wanted to get a book out there because we had a message around recognition. And when I say we, I started co-authoring when initially with a beautiful person I used to work with, Brenda Zaltraminden. And a publishing company approached us, which we thought, wow, that's pretty lucky.

A publishing company approaches you. How often does that happen for a few months into business? And they said, we have an anthology with Dr. Wheatley and Jack Canfield and a number of people. So they have written a few chapters already. We're looking for a few authors who have a related message, but a different take. Would you like to be a part of it? And we thought, wow, that's such an honor. And then anyone who's business savvy probably knows what's coming next. And so they said, we just have to, you know, there will be, we'll pay for all the

production costs, but you have to upfront pay for your books because we have to lock in the costs that are going to be involved. They thought, you know, cost sharing makes sense. So we were going to get a couple hundred books and each of our investments was about $700. And we thought we can manage that. That's a good investment. And we get a hundred books out of the deal each. Fabulous. Because now we've got something to sell at the back of the room. Now we've got somebody to share potential clients to who is going to hire us. And how cool is that to be affiliated? That position status and social proof that you get by being connected with people that people know. And we produced our chapter. Everything seemed to be going well.

We were told, okay, there's just a few more people who have to produce their chapters and nothing. So then a few months later, I contact them and I said, I'm just curious, probably actually every month I contacted them and said, just curious, how's it going? Initially we got emails back to saying, you know what? I'm so sorry. You guys were so fast in getting your content back to us. We're waiting. We're waiting. Well, six months goes by, Sandra. And now my book book is coming out. And I just messaged him and say, I want my money back because I don't need your book now. I can't believe that if you have all these people who can't even get a book written in six months, how their chapter is going to be good, I don't want to be associated with them. And I don't need your book

anymore. I've got my own book and it's freaking fantastic. So, you know, I don't need it. No answer at all. And then I just decide to Google them. There's just one moment, you know how you wake up sometimes about something. Yes. Wake up. I Googled their company name and their pages down. Oh no. No. Was it a scam? Pardon? Was it a scam? Well, they did produce a few books for people, but they went bankrupt. Oh no. All of the people's money. And I actually managed to find one person. I don't know how I did. I can't remember how I did it now, who also was supposed to be in our book and, uh, and just ask if she had gotten anything. And she said that, um, she was supposed to be in this book. She had

done a book with them previously and did actually get something from them, but this was, I guess they must've filed for bankruptcy, but you know what? Here's the other thing that just makes me so angry, but we won't get into it, is that they just opened up again. They just started all over again. So the lesson from that is, so we failed, we learned from it. You can't trust everybody. And that it may seem like a good idea on the surface, but frankly, the other learning was this was an ego choice. This was a fear-based choice. I cannot write a good enough book to sell something on my own without other names attached. The ignite is, so what if I then go and write the best book and I never, ever, ever have to be dependent on another publishing house unless I want to work with them.

I never have to depend on a testimonial. I just can write books that are such good quality. It doesn't matter that anybody else is involved or not. I mean, obviously I have editors, but you know what I'm saying? That how can I depend on myself only? And that ignited this inner author in me and this focus and this drive to do books well and to do them quicker than I could ever get done by a publishing company. And then the praise was, I'm able to acknowledge that I've been able to co-author or author four books since that time and not let that get me down. So that's a failure. Yeah, I love it. And I'm, what I'm hearing is that, you know, like you took back your power,

you realize that, you know, you can write and you don't need anybody else to rely on. So, you know, I sort of think I use a phrase a lot in my work that like things happen for you and not to you. And it's a Katie Byron quote. And I love it because it makes me think about like how even these difficulties actually like are a gift, right? To help you like learn something about yourself or that, you know, that you, you can write and you don't need anybody else to help you do that. Well, and, and we pay a lot of money to go to business school. This was a business lesson. This was a $750 business lesson. Yeah. And, and we, we have to sometimes pay for our lessons. Yeah, for sure. Hire three coaches before you find the perfect coach for you. You know, you have to, maybe some of your professional athletes, if they're listening to this conversation are thinking, I had to go through some pretty nasty coaches before I found the awesome coach that I have now. I had to go through that physical grind of that pain by using technique or working too hard and not resting enough.

I had to go through that to be able to realize the importance of health and wellbeing and, you know, body and rest and, uh, or, or using my body the way my body's designed to be used versus what I should do, what other people are doing. So we all have these expensive lessons. The expense for me was $750 for somebody else, it might be an injury. For somebody else, it might be a divorce. You pay your currency and then you choose to see it as a debt or you choose to see it as an investment that you're going to reap more. I have gotten more than $750 out of that experience. Now, believe me, I think these people should be behind jail and behind bars because I actually do think they're being manipulative.

They knew very well that their business was floundering when they took our money. But the point is, that story doesn't help me. So I choose to own my story. So I love your message around, and that's one of your 10 dimensions, right? Is around, find the control that you do have and leverage that. And I so value that about the work that you do. Yeah, it makes me think about my, you know, in my book, I talk about these 10 practices of the world's best. And number nine is live and let go, you know, that we do have to reframe, we do have to see the positive. And I like what you said about

like flipping it in that moment. And what story are you telling yourself? Is the story that you're telling yourself helping you or not? And if it's not, you know, that's, that's when you got to switch it. And when you asked me to share a story, I was like, Oh gosh, what's the story I'm going to share of a time I failed? Cause I feel like there's so many. But I think you said that, that there are so many as opposed to, oh my God, I don't

want, that's vulnerable to me. So kudos to you. Yeah. You're living your message. You're living your 10 practices by, ooh, of all the juicy stories, I could tell which one. I know, which one should I choose? And this is a story that happened a few years ago, maybe five years ago when I was in my

town, we have a marathon, and I really wanted to win this marathon. And so I spent most of my summer really like hardcore training for this marathon. And I started this marathon with one of my grad students. And I felt so good. And but he was pushing the pace a little bit. He's maybe a little bit fitter than I was. And I was like, I'm just gonna go with it because I feel really good. Okay, something you shouldn't do the first half of the marathon. And for the first 13 miles or so I was in second. So I could see the first place female and I was like trying to get after getting after and you know, the thing that's interesting is you think you can't control who else is in the race yes you

really can't control if you win or not because you don't know who's going to show up that day and so I'm pushing it and I'm on pace to run under a three-hour marathon which is probably like you know at least a five-minute PR for, just like crushing it. And about mile 13, I start not feeling very good. And I saw some friends and they were like, Oh, Cinder's struggling. And I just like, I didn't take control. I wasn't in, I didn't feel like I was control of my pace. And I just kind of, you know, maybe let my ego get in the way or I don't want Mark to beat me or I want to stick with Mark instead of like really running my own race. And then the second place runner passes me.

So I get, you know, I'm in third now and I'm, I'm just really struggling the last couple of miles. And I remember I had this like drink that I was going to take that I'd never taken before, but I gave it to a friend and said, hey, if I'm struggling, can you give me this drink, right, and it was actually sparked by Advocare, but I'd never taken it, like, during a race, and so I'm really struggling, like, mile 24, and still in third place, though, right, still in the podium spot in my hometown, all these people were watching me, I'm, like, a role model, you know, like, I, I wrote on were watching me. I'm like a role model, you know, like I wrote on my arm, like I am a role model for mental toughness. Like I was putting a little

too much pressure on myself, too much pressure, you know? And so I take this Avacare drink or the Spark drink and all of a sudden at about mile 25, I'm just cramping. Like, and I'm going down straightaway. I have like, oh goodness, maybe a quarter mile left and I'm going to get third. And my, my friend says to me, there's no other female behind you. Just take it easy. So I decided to take it easy. And then all of a sudden, boom, I get past the last minute and I get fourth. And it was so hard for me because I didn't really manage my body. I was trying to manage my mind, but I was in so much discomfort. And I was so disappointed on that race, you know, like just because I didn't really take control and I kind of let other things determine my success instead of really deciding what I

wanted to do. So it was really hard for me because all these people were watching me, but I maybe put a little too much pressure on myself. I hear that. I hear that. And you know what else I hear? I hear that you were a role model for mental toughness, toughness, actually. Yeah. What would be your other choices? Like, you know, you, yeah, you finished the race and it came in fourth, but what were your other choices? Right. Right. Well, and I did, you know, just try to keep, I finished, I kept pushing. Right. And I, I think what I really learned in that moment, if I take the L in your flip, right. Is that sometimes we can have these really outcome goals that can drive us when we're

training. But that wasn't helpful for me in that moment to think about winning that race. And I was so caught up in like winning that I think it negatively took over kind of my mindset in that moment. And I learned after that to define my performance less like outcome focused, but more about, you know, like how I raced and that I was really in control of my body and my mind and my pace and my nutrition instead of just trying something new that maybe, maybe would have happened. But there's lots of other stories I can share with you. We'll have to create a whole bunch of stories in the show notes. Yeah, yeah, there we go. We can just like talk about stories. So I go back to Sarah about the flip side of failing, right? And so why would you it just highlights that we need to flip failure and then we need to share our failures. So, I mean, I know something about you. I've come to learn

a lot about you over the last year and a half of us being the same speaking mastermind. I'm a huge raving fan of yours. I think what you do in the world is so cool and you're incredibly humble. So, you know, hearing that and hearing it, hearing, hearing what makes you, what ignites you, what you're passionate about and how that can shift. I just have even more respect for you. And then, you know, what I think we all need to keep in mind is your own version of, and you're, you had that on your arm, right? Mental toughness. I know. You demonstrated that by finishing. Mental tough, like physical and mental toughness. I know. You demonstrated that by finishing. Mental toughness, like physical and mental toughness was getting off onto the other side. I mean, frankly, it was just getting in the

game to begin with, because I've never run a marathon and I used to do distance running. So, you know, it is not on my bucket list. There's a lot on my bucket list, but that one's not one. And for stories like that. I understand. There's been amazing races I've had though. Of course. No. And you've done, you've done incredible things. And, and that's okay. Is that, you know, sometimes we, we look at, we, you know, lots of people listening to your podcast will think, Oh, you know what? I'm so respect Cinder. I should do what Cinder does. And then now you're not running your own race again in life. You're trying to live a life that somebody else is living because that's what ignites them so running for you it's dancing

for me if i said hey cinder why don't you join a hip-hop class this year and do that every day would you be like yes or uh no no exactly see you're you're running i, I'm hip hopping and that's fine. So, you know what I think for people who really want to embrace this and accept failure and build that resiliency, I actually, that's, I have two frameworks in the book. The one that I think would be most relevant to the work that you do is the mindset one, because just a very quick overview of this, and we'll put some pictures in the show notes so that people can get the visual of these. First, we noticed from all of these interviews we did with folks and all the research that supported this, neuroscience, as well as positive psychology and solution-focused approach, is that it starts with having a failure

resilient mindset. Because when you can embrace, so if you next, next race you went into, I suspect you'd say, this is my own race. I'm going to notice my body. I'm going to slow my pace, quicken up my pace, the process that matters more than the outcome. And probably my, the ironic thing is then your outcome will probably be better, which I'm sure you've had that. Although four, I have to say is pretty darn impressive, but anyway, you know, and so, so the mindset and then it's the failure resilient context. You're running, let's say this guy, Mark, that you're running with was like, what is wrong with you? You're keeping me back. Come on. You're going to let everybody down. Like if he was full of lack of mental toughness and he was being super hard on

you, then it's no longer even an ego thing for you. You actually were in a failure resilient or failure resistant context. So we have to make choices in our life, in our work, in the training room, who we're going to spend our time with. And that's of course, the benefit of people working with you, Cinder, is that you help them be in that failure resilient context, because it's not being at your peak physical and mental performance every day. It's getting ready for ideal performance. Once you get there, we heard a speaker yesterday, who's the first female, you know, fighter pilot. Yeah. And they train them in the most ridiculous conditions that set you up for failure so that when you actually are in the high stakes, real situations,

you've already gone through the worst possible, every single scenario, and you have developed mental toughness. And if you don't have mental toughness, then they don't put you in those situations and, you situations and losing your own life and a multi-canalion dollar helicopter or plane or whatever. So yeah, so that's failure result context. And when a triggering event happens, you can deflate, you could just mitigate the damage or you can elevate. And when I give you those three options, sometimes we have to go through all three and sometimes it's okay. If you lose your closest family member, you have to go through all three and sometimes it's okay. Like if, you know, if you lose your closest family member, you develop mental toughness that day,

you're going to be deflated and you're allowed to just like, just go through the motions and just mitigate for a while. And then you can maybe elevate from there and other things like we lost another game. Okay. Well it's, you know, yes, I can be in that downward cycle, just mitigate up. We come or if it's something that's going to happen and it's expected, why, why get mired in it? So people can check, check out in the show notes when it comes to diving more into the mindset part

of that first part of the model, the accept, which is a failure resiliency mindset, accept stands for something. It's an acronym. And A is acquire. What can be learned? C is choice. What options do I have available? C is connection. How can this actually bond and unite? It makes people more human when they fail and they share their stories of failure. E is expect. Could this be expected? P is progress. What's the best way forward? And T is transformation. What is most important long-term? Because the opposite, when we're failure resistant, and see if maybe this showed up in that race story that you gave beautifully just a couple of minutes ago, we accuse, we become failure resistant. A, who needs to answer to this? Like what, you know, what did I not know?

How was I not prepared? The first C is covet. What do I want? I want, you know, I have to have first place. You know, that's that sort of thing. The next C is cajole. How can I save face? U is unanticipated.

Why didn't I see this coming? S is stuck. Why bother? Like, should I quit? Should I just like throw in the can, throw in the towel or keep going? E is error. Why did this break? What's wrong with this picture? And just like from a mental toughness, which of those sets of questions is going to make you more mentally tough? The apt questions or accused questions. Okay, really good. And so I'm going to go back to the deflate, mitigate, elevate. And I'm guessing that's maybe like the process that we go through

when we fail, right? And tell us about like maybe each of those. And you gave a great example of, okay, if we have something really difficult in our lives, we might not go to elevate really quickly. So what do you see in terms of how people go through these steps? Yes. Yeah. So I'll try my best to do, you know, I'll give a sports. That's okay. Give us a business example.

Okay. Business is okay. Okay. Yeah. So a great example is you go for a job, you know, so I, I am the perfect position for this job. I, I've got people supporting me. I've got, I've done all the work to prove myself.

You go for that job interview and you do a pretty good job in the job interview. You think, you know, afterwards as most of us do, oh, I could have answered that question differently. I wonder if that what they were trying to get at that. But you know, you made good eye contact. People smiled. They said, we'll be in touch. And you're thinking, yeah, they're going to be in touch for sure. And then they call you up, or maybe it takes a while for them to call you. And they say, yeah, you did really well, but we went with somebody else. And that's all the information you have.

So it's natural to feel deflated. Wow, I really think I had this and I perform well. So heck, if I perform my best and I do everything I need to, to be able to set myself up to get this job and I still don't get it, what's wrong with me? Have I misinterpreted the situation? Maybe, maybe I'm not as qualified. Maybe I should leave the organization. Perhaps, you know, I should, maybe it's now time to switch careers. We really get ourselves down. The, the just mitigating might be okay. Well, all right. I'm not getting this whole beating myself up thing. Is that going to help at all? And I actually do have some counter evidence that I was still qualified. Mitigating might be, well, probably there are other candidates. So, you know, it's,

you're competing against other people, just like in your race analogy, you can't control who else enters the race. Same within the job market. And, and so you may be think, okay, you know what, maybe I'm going to just take a restorative bath or go for a run or go out for dinner and celebrate that I did well in my, my performance in that interview, even if I didn't get the job. And then elevate might be, hmm, you know, what could I do? What could I be doing now based on, you know, the fact that I know I still deserve this job? Maybe you go to one of the members of that hiring team and you wouldn't have before if you stayed in deflate to say, you know, I really would love to know what can I do to be successful next time? Is there anything else that you could recommend

that I start doing? Maybe you start posting regularly on LinkedIn articles, your own thought leadership, because probably nobody else on the panel in a company is doing that. Maybe you decide, you know what? One area I know is still not an area of strength for me in this, that is essential in this role is let's say project management. I'm going to go take a project management course. So you find the new energy as opposed to, I'm not good enough. It's, I'm just going to elevate my performance a little bit, just like it's a process. I'm going to see it's an experiment. I'm going to see if this works now. And then I suspect you'll be successful in the next time. The other thing is it may also teach you through that process of trying to,

you know, meet the expectation is, you know what? I keep trying to meet other people's expectations, but I wonder if I could do this in another way. Maybe I actually want to work for a smaller company where I'm going to get more opportunities, or maybe it's time to open up that business. Maybe I am going to be a professional speaker and I'm going to start speaking as much as I can while I'm still employed so that once I go and I launch my own business, I am going to be able to get my full fee and have a viable business. Sometimes that process of going through deflate and mitigate and elevate is where the, the, the elevate part is a new definition of what you most want and need in your life.

Ah, I love that. So I go back to kind of what you were saying at the beginning, Sarah, the people that you interviewed and you said that they were constantly looking for failure and then something else that you said in the book is like, you know, that they became more successful because of failure. So tell us how maybe we can like adapt that mindset throughout our day, throughout our year, you know, cause that's a, you know, that they're constantly looking for failure. And so tell us how we might actually be able to do that. Well, a great example of that is, and this would, her story, I'm sure would be echoed by many successful Olympians is Heather Moyes. So her and her, she was actually a national rugby player.

And before somebody approached her and said, Hey, do you want to get in this icy sled and like shoot down a track, you know, headfirst at 365 kilometers an hour initially, because she probably has good sense said, no, that doesn't sound like a good idea to switch careers. I'd rather stay on land. But she had so much talent and people could see it in her. And they said, just, you know, come out for training camp, just try it out. And she, she performed really well. And they said, we'd love to give you an Olympic spot. Now, when you come into Olympic sledding, the likelihood that a brand new sled team is going to podium, especially in that sport where you're hundreds of a second away

from the podium finish. So they, her and her teammate went in being the underdogs. And so that's a little easier to not be on the podium, but here's cool. Here's what's cool is they came so close to the podium. They were just shy of it. Now, again, even if you don't expect you're going to get it, it would be easy to be disappointed that you were fourth. Oh my gosh, we came one one hundredths of a second behind the medal, the bling. But she didn't, she did not go to the Olympics expecting, well,

frankly, to ever even have gone there. So the fact that she went there was the huge accomplishment. And so then when next training camp came along, she, she tried out, she, she, she beat her push time back at the Olympics. And this time her and her teammate were the first Canadian gold medalists for Canada in women's bobsledding. So that's pretty cool, right? Super cool. Super cool.

Had she let a fourth place finish tell her that she wasn't good at this and that she should go back to rugby and track, which was her original sports know, her original sports, she wouldn't have been part of, and maybe we wouldn't have medaled like that this year or that year. She had to, she was, it just, cause you get a medal doesn't mean to say that you get, go back again. She had to train again, but this time in between all the sports had done damage to her hips. She had to have major reconstructive surgery nine months before training camp to recover, to be able to recover to the extent of a surgery like that, to be able to even be well enough to do what she does, to do all the rigorous training camp trials is pretty unheard of. So she put her body through some really intense physio,

got back. Actually the, the, the injury turned out to be a blessing because it actually corrected some of the way in which her hips were built that actually she was having to compensate for. She had no idea. She had the fastest push time on record in training camp. Awesome. Awesome. So again, that failure, like I have to have surgery and my body's broken, it turned out to be a huge positive for her. And she, she made it back onto the team, a second gold. So, you know, for, for her, I think that's an example of, you know, she could have, she had many points where she could have seen that is not successful. In fact, when she went back a fourth time, she was actually retired. She had written a book. She was on the speaking circuit, but a developing athlete reached out

to her and said, you know, the only chance I'm going to the Olympics and starting my career is by training with somebody like you. Would you push? She was the person in the behind. She was the quote, break man. So doing the pushing and then madly breaking at the end. Embarrassing on national television to smash into the end of the track. So two pretty intense jobs. And she knew that she wouldn't meddle. I mean, it was virtually impossible for a brand new driver, this young 22 year old new on the sledding scene to, to metal. And Heather hadn't been in a gym for three and a half years since the last Olympics. So she came out of retirement at 39 years old. I am very close to that age. And I don't think I could put my body through remotely. What she her body through, came back with only six months preparation. And they came in only five one hundredths of a second behind the bronze medal team, sixth place, which again, if some people thought, oh my God,

you got a gold last time you came back and you came in sixth, that's a failure, not for Heather. Because she had done what she came to do. She wanted to develop and mentor and support and guide this athlete who will probably go back to the Olympics, the next one. And she's, she's probably our best chance for a medal. And she is the future of female sliding in Canada. So, you know, I think we all have these stories all around us of people who, who have defied the, of the expectations. You, you can't go to the Olympics at 39. You can't come out of expectations. You can't go to the Olympics at 39. You can't come out of retirement. You can't go from one sport to another

and be at the top of the podium. You know, you shouldn't be doing that. You should be buying a house and buying a car and raising a family. You're not doing what you should do. So it's a matter of examining our life and our work and redefining what will success look like. And that is going to require a lot of flips along the way. Ah, that's super good. So Sarah, when I was listening to you, I was thinking a little bit

about like how sometimes our expectation of what's going to happen contributes to our belief if we failed or not, right? Like, so she wasn't expecting to win. I think about my race, how I was expecting to win. And then I was really disappointed to, you know, get fourth by a couple of seconds. So how do you think like our expectation connects with our belief that we failed and just wondering how that maybe connects with like not having a failure resistant mindset. I think we, we talk so much about goals, particularly in North American culture. And, and that is oftentimes goal can mask a super high expectation. And, and if we say it's a goal, it's a good thing. Goal good, you know, like a wish bad, you know, that, that seems like it's, it's, it's fluffy. The challenge with goals, especially if we don't really have process oriented goals, we only have outcome oriented goals,

which the progress part is related to having process oriented goals or process, depending on where you are in Canada or the U S process and process. I get it. I, I speak, I speak Canadian. So, you know, the process along the way to reach that goal has to include milestones, has to include measurements of how you're getting there. So if there's one piece of advice I can give people so that they can have high expectations and not have unrealistic expectations that may disappointment, or what will not allow them to complete the flip with the P is praise. We need to acknowledge the progress along the way. I'll give you an example of how, when I was writing this book, I took a thermometer image off of

Google images. I did not steal it from anybody. It was free proprietor image out there. Anyway, so I printed it off. I'm not sure if you've done something like this, Cinder, when you've written your books. I wrote down, I wanted to get to 60,000 words. And so on there, I had every 10,000 words was marked. And then I highlighted at the end of my writing day I wrote for a month straight in the July of 2018 and every day once I was done I didn't write expecting that it was great a great book because I figured that's what editors are there for to tell you this makes sense this thing you seem like you seem like you were, you know, drink, drunk, drinking, although you weren't like, you need to fix that part. That always happens, right? You

know, you have to, you have to have people help you along the way. And, um, and, and I, so I just wrote, and that was my only goal is progress, not the outcome, which is a, like a bestselling book or, or, you know, a book that all my clients are going to buy. I, I knew that I wanted a book that was going to lead to a new keynote that excited people and that filled a gap that I was hearing at the end of my keynotes of people struggling with recognition when things don't go well. I just, I had to focus on the process and the progress first because that's what's going to get me to the outcome. So the only progress measure was how many words, regardless of how good those words were.

And you know how motivational it is by seeing that thermometer fill up? Yeah. I'm only halfway. And I would share my progress. I'd share, Hey guys, um, I can't believe it. I'm 25% there. You are going to love this book. I'm so excited.

I haven't reread it yet, so I don't know for sure, but I think you guys are going to love this book. I'm so excited. I haven't reread it yet, so I don't know for sure, but I think you guys are going to love it. Or I'd share a motivational quote and I'll say like, this quote I've decided to put in the book, what other quote should I use? So I was actually very open about my progress with my community and social media. Not that it was done because oftentimes we don't celebrate until the end. And people were like, cheering me on. They're like, I can't wait to read it. And how can I get a copy? I'm like, I don't know, probably the website, you know, and I love that meme. And so they would share it because people want to support you in the, in the journey too. So open yourself up. You don't have to, because sometimes people don't, they're like, well, what if I never get to the end? What if I'm going to have to go back and tell all those people that I failed and I

didn't, it didn't write that book. Well, you know, that's part of what keeps you small. I never told anybody when I was writing with the exception of one Instagram post, I never told anybody I was writing the original two books that I, that failed. And I think that there's maybe something tangled there together. The outcome was the greatness book and 60,000 words. When I got to 10,000 and I decided that these books were not the books that I was meant to write. Cause I tried to rewrite it twice. I didn't celebrate like, yes, I just invested all that time to realize what is the most important message. At first I was deflated. I was thinking, wow, that's a waste of time. I don't have time to waste this time.

I could have spent with my family or exercising or training to become the Olympics. Cause you know, if Heather did at 39, maybe I could do it. You know, yay, 40 year old. So, you know, the point is it, it, it, I got deflated and it, and I had to put the, all that great content and research aside for six months. It took me an extra six months and maybe it's not, it didn't take me an extra six months. Maybe that was the process that I needed to go through. I could have pushed forward. And the only outcome in writing the book on greatness, I don't care how many pages, I don't care if it's any good. I don't care if it inspires anybody. I don't care if nobody ever buys it. I did it. Well, what's the point in writing a book

that isn't any good or that nobody likes it or that nobody gets any value from it? That's I think what we need to do is measure progress. Ah, really good. So when I think about failure resistant mindset and some things that might get in our way of developing that, like I think about sometimes organizational culture, I think about maybe a boss who maybe, you know, is really hard on you when you fail or a family member or a spouse. So tell us about, you know, the failure resistant mindset, even within this culture that maybe we can't always control. And how do you see the organizational culture? Like, cause I know your work is on recognition, right? So tell us about that connection. Yeah. And, and thank you for asking

that question because it is actually the space where I play, where I feel such huge passion to bring this message around flipping failure into workplaces. And the context chapters of the book, they talk about this in your own head. That's one context, as you know, from the coaching work that you do. And so much of your book gets at that. And then the other one is family. The other one is organizational. And the other one is actually in school and academic context. So we have to have a failure resiliency mindset in all four of those contexts. So when we specifically dive into organizations, one of the biggest reasons why people, there are two big

reasons why people do not praise folks regularly in this context. One is they don't know what to say to people that they don't like. They have this notion that I can only acknowledge people when they are performing at their best, the whole high expectation thing that we're talking about. And yet there is greatness in everyone, the extraordinary and the ordinary. We often don't see. So if we only think we can acknowledge people when they're going quote above and beyond, then we miss all of the things that are the process to going above and beyond and that you could lose them. You could literally lose them as in, in our current talent shortage, where attrition is so high in almost every company out there. And you don't have your best people to meet your, your innovative needs, your customer service needs, your, your, where people want to stay and that they're acknowledged on a regular basis, even when they don't necessarily have the outcome that they hoped for,

you hope for, however, things aren't worse and they're making progress. So that's one thing is, how do I recognize people that I don't like, or when things aren't going well, notice something that is. Even in the grisliest colleague or boss, there is something that you agree on and something that you see eye to eye on. So just look for that. You have to kind of be a personality scavenger hunter sometimes. And the other thing is that you can actually benefit as an organization when you notice and celebrate failure. Some of my clients

celebrate the biggest oops award. So yeah. So imagining a team meeting and you talk about some people that you want to recognize and acknowledge some things that worked well, maybe read a client testimonial before you move on to the other business and say, okay, and who is, is vying for the biggest oops award. And whether it be people submitted in advance or, or you just share it, well, we lost a big client this week and with, and then it follows by. And what I think we could learn from that is this. And so you basically make a pitch why your failure is going to be a focus at the meeting. Oh yeah, well, our email system crashed

and nobody could get back to anybody for two days. Yeah, that's pretty big oops. So you all share these failures that happened and then you decide on one that you're going to study, even if it's for five minutes, ideally more like 10 or 15. And you're going to try to understand, learn everything you possibly

can about what contributed to that and create a very quick next step or ideally maybe even a few next steps to help to make sure it won't happen again and and talk about i mean not only are you going to be better off on the long term as a company? Not only are you more likely to recognize people for not being perfect that, you know, we all make mistakes because you've just had multiple people share failures of their team or something they did or a client or whatever, but also you're helping to spark innovation and creativity that we talk about in workplaces, but we don't actually know what that means. Like we think that's the job of resources and development departments or Stan who's super creative and loves to tinker with things or Gloria who always stays late and brainstorms

ideas on whiteboards and you walk in and magic is all over the whiteboard. It's one of us, our greatest ingenuity innovations come from failures because it's what's not working. And that's can be, that can be what ignites us is, wow, this may be one of those lessons that we didn't want, but think about how much it would cost us if we didn't notice it now. So let's say this, we lost this client. You realize you uncover, oh my gosh, we, half of our clients are at risk if this keeps happening. So you need to fix that thing. So one client lost actually saves

you half your clients. You know, so that's what I really encourage organizations to do is to find ways to make it safe and authentically safe, not just artificially safe, to share failures. And then with that, what can we learn? Because there is no singular failure. Unless somebody has maliciously, which virtually never happens, maliciously gone out to do something to destroy somebody else. Even context, I've studied organizational development and practiced it almost my whole career. Even things like bullying, that seems like that is one bad apple. Well, what contributed to them getting there? Who didn't give them feedback? Who didn't stand up for themselves? Who bullied them that taught them it was okay? Has the, has their boss or their colleagues

or somebody intervened on behalf of the person that's being bullied what is psychological lack of psychological safety exists in the workplace that that can thrive how how is and how is this person perhaps trying to distract from failure so that you know we they're they're covering up for something there's there even things that seem like it is a singular person who's messing up in their responsibility, there's actually probably a whole bunch of other contributing factors. And if you are willing and on it, and this is where your ego comes, we think it's an individual thing. No, this is where your organizational ego has to be called into question. Because probably you feel like, what else might we uncover about our organization or our people,

culture, or our customer relationships that we don't want to know? And so you have to be willing to see that. No, no. And expect it. There are things broken about this whole business. And you know my... go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about, as I'm listening about how, like, this is an example in the end of the book, when you're talking about how failure is a gateway to transformation. Like when you're, when you're describing and sharing and connecting about your failure and being okay, describing it and telling people about it, right? Like you can transform your company. You can transform your business. You can transform your own performance when you're really willing to examine it this way.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's really the exciting thing that most of us are leaving on the table. We're just, we have very, we feel very vanilla about our job and about our family and about where we're going in our life. And sometimes it's actually those failures that are the wake-up call that make us realize, you know what? I think I've been living on autopilot. I don't. And that was the thing for me. I really loved so much about my job and I never consciously really decided at some point I need to, I'm going to climb the ladder. I never wanted to be CEO. So I have no idea what I was climbing to. Like I would have just kept climbing, fall off the ladder. And, and I didn't diversify in other businesses and,

you know, areas I worked in the same industry. And, and I actually realized when our family failure triggered me to have to step back uncomfortably and look at, is there anything else in my work that in my life that's not working? Sure. I realized it was my career. It was the commute that went along with it. The long meetings that I hated. I was in death by meeting cycle.

I, I sure I had a team that were super high performing. I never had time because of the senior leadership role I was in to go out and do the hands on work that I love so much and it took so long to do and that my children had no idea what I did. And now as a speaker, they get to come to really cool countries and see me speak and experience it with me. And I just, I got my certified speaking professional designation at the NSA and they're so proud of me. And that wouldn't have happened had I been just on autopilot doing the things that my parents wanted me to do. And God love my parents. They always

wanted the best in us. And what they define as the best stable job, get as big a title, the most money, the most job securities you possibly can. And absolutely that's one path. And I am not dissing it for anybody who is on that path. If that is what ignites you, because so many people write that ignites them. They love that. I know lots of friends who I used to work with that are still in corporate and they love it. And that's great. It wasn't right for me, but I had to leverage a failure to be able to have the energy to be willing to potentially fail hugely in business. And the ironic thing is I won in business and in life. My relationships with my kids are so much closer.

They're doing competitive sports now because we have the flexibility in our life to do that. I actually sponsor both of their teams now. So my business is able to feed money into those organizations. Yeah. So that they can, because they have thrived their mental health and their physical wellbeing to levels that there's no way I as a mother could do in my own house. It's just, it had to be, it had to be outsourced. Well, Sarah, I think that's a great example that kind of gets us to the beginning of like what you described and how you got to where you are, you know, and I, first of all, I just want to tell you how grateful I am to spend some time talking about your work. And I'm grateful for you sharing this with us and you doing such amazing work in this area. So I want to congratulate you on your CSP, your Certified Speaking Professional Award

you just got at the National Speakers Association. And I want to share with you some of the things I took from the conversation. Yeah, kind of wrap it up and summarize what we talked about today. So you said that success is not the opposite of failure and that the people that you interviewed actually were constantly looking for failure. So I think that's a really big takeaway for people and that you can become more successful because of failure. I loved your flip acronym, you know, in terms of like, how do you, how do you flip this failure? And you said, fail, learn, ignite and praise. And I thought the praise was really unique because a lot of people don't

necessarily think to praise themselves after they fail. And then you just talked about how like trying to work to flip failure in the moment. I thought that was really powerful. And just like a takeaway people can use that, okay, how can I flip this in the moment? Because it does change my brain chemistry, which you mentioned. And maybe a way that you can ask yourself that is like, is this story helping me or not? Yeah. of just like how to work through the failure. So your book here, Flipside of Failing, How to Recognize and Leverage Greatness in Life and Work. Tell us where we can go ahead and get that book. Well, of course, folks would like an autographed copy. Just come on over to my website, greatnessmagnified.com. But it's also, if people search for that term, it'll come up on multiple booksellers. It's going to be available in audio as of August.

So it might be when you release this, it might already be in audio. It's probably going to be the end of August. And of course it's on every mobile device. So Kindle and Kobo and so forth. So that's already out there. Print, so print and electronic versions are available all over the world.

And frankly, while people are buying my book, if they haven't yet, for some reason, bought yours, I think they need to buy both at the same time. No, that's awesome. Just to read below on Amazon, yours and mine should be right beside each other. Yeah, we should try to get that. Yeah, we should. All the things you teach and who you are as a person, Sindra, and the brilliance you bring into the world, these things go hand in hand. So I just, whether you start with one and then you read the other,

I don't think there's an order because they completely tie in to have leading a high performance life on the field, off the field, in the boardroom, in your family, at the dinner table, everywhere. So Cindinder, you thanked me. I want to thank you for that work because this allows people who maybe did not come from failure-resilient contexts to work with you as an incredibly talented coach to be able to have a failure-resilient context, perhaps for the first time in their life.

And that what you do to teach them to be high performance in the work that you do, they can carry that forward for the rest of their life. So I appreciate that you're doing, you're living this work through the work that you're doing. Thank you, Sarah. And I have heard Sarah speak several times in our work together. So you should check out Greatness Magnified if you're looking for a speaker. Check out Sarah. And again, the book is Flipside of Failing. So thank you so much for joining us here today, Sarah. Thank you. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you like today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend,

and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.