High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 323: Be Present and Mindful with Dr. Michael Gervais, High-Performance Psychologist

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

Dr. Michael Gervais is a high performance psychologist working with some of the best in the world, training the mindset skills and practices essential to pursuing and revealing one’s potential. His clients include world record holders, Olympians, internationally acclaimed artists and musicians, MVPs from every major sport and Fortune 100 CEOs. Dr. Gervais is also the co-founder of Compete to Create, a joint venture with Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll, which has built a framework to enhance high performance cultures by focusing on mindset training for individuals. More than 30,000 employees from across Microsoft and AT&T have completed the High-Performance Mindset Training Course. A published, peer-reviewed author and recognized speaker on optimal human performance, Dr. Gervais has been featured by CNN, The Wall Street Journal, ESPN, NBC, NFL Network, Red Bull TV, Extra, The Huffington Post, Outside Magazine and others. He is also the host of Finding Mastery, a podcast that takes you inside the rugged and high-stakes environments of those on the path of mastery to explore how they train minds to be at their very best. Gervais unpacks and decodes each guest’s journey, psychological framework and mindset skills and practices.  Dr. Gervais received his undergraduate degree from Loyola Marymount University. He completed his Ph.D. while studying under Dr. Bruce Ogilvie, at San Diego University, Integrative Studies. In this podcast, Cindra and Mike talk: The journey Cindra went on after hearing Mike keynote in September Strategies to deal with changes and adversity What to do with the excessive anxiety we may feel right now How to care less about what other people think What mastery is to him Why we need to live on the edge between vulnerability and courage each day Lessons he has learned from some of the best athletes and coaches in the world To view the full show notes, visit here. To join Cindra’s webinar mentioned in the podcast, visit here. 

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best so you can accomplish all your goals and dreams. So I'm over here following my big dreams and I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Ms. Pac-Man. Yes, the 1980s game Ms. Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and

let's go. This is the high performance mindset. We've got these seeds and whatever we water, they grow. And some seeds are more weeds and some seeds are beautiful flowers. And, you know, I've got weeds that I've been watering for a long time, like I think about, you know, the seeds of anger, frustration, worry, like I've got those seeds too. And so when I noticed that I'm watering one of those seeds, I can feel it, I can feel the difference between smelling a rose and the kind of constricting nature of a weed. And so it is the practice of mindfulness to gently, without judgment and critique, go, oh, I see what I'm doing. Come on back. It's like, that's it. Like, oh, look at that. I know where this is going.

You know? And so come on back to the task at hand, to a breath, to something that is concrete in this present moment. Welcome to episode 323 with high performance psychologist Michael Gervais. This is your host, Dr. Cinder Akampoff, and I'm grateful that you're here today listening to the podcast. If you know that mindset is essential to your success, then you are in the right place. Now more than ever, it is essential to train your mind to stay in the present and not live in the future with fear and anxiety. And I know it's scary. I have been feeling it too. And today's guest you will enjoy because he gives us strategies on how to live in the present and reduce the fear and anxiety we can all experience right now during COVID-19 and all the changes happening in

our lives. I was supposed to be in Pasadena this week speaking to hundreds of figure skating coaches and traveling to interview Mike face to face but with the virus I am at home just like you and there's been a lot of changes in my life. My kiddos are home, online distance learning. I've had some friends that have been laid off. Personally, I had a TED Talk canceled that I was so looking forward to in April, and all of my speaking engagements have been canceled or postponed through May. But there's still so many things to be grateful for. I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for you as a listener. I'm grateful for my home. And I'm grateful that I live in this beautiful state of Minnesota and our governor is crushing it. But my speaking

engagements is how I've been getting my energy all these years. And so I'm redirecting my energy and my time and I'm doubling down on what I can control. And that is my attitude, my attention, my passion, my purpose, my perspective, my effort, my emotions, and my energy. And I have two really exciting things to announce. Tomorrow on Friday, I'm hosting my first webinar live. It's about staying positive and on purpose in change and adversity. And here are some things that we're going to be covering tomorrow. You can join by going to cindracampoff.com slash webinar. So that's C-I-N-D-R-A-K-A-M-P-H-O-F-F.com slash webinar. And we're going to be talking about how to understand fear and provide tools and how to reduce it. We're going to be talking about focus improving questions we can use during this transition, how to lead with grit and resilience and energy. And then I'm going to be sharing a grit priming exercise in detail to help you maintain your energy. So I'd love for

you to join us tomorrow. You can head over to cindracampoff.com slash webinar to join us and to register for the webinar for tomorrow if you missed the webinar and you are listening to this after Friday still head over to cinderella camp off comm slash webinar and you can get access to the free webinar over there the second thing I've committed to doing to improve all of your lives as I am hosting a high performance mindset summit in April. So watch for that. And I will be announcing more information about that in the next coming weeks. I've always wanted to host a webinar in the summit. And so I'm feeling like this is a great opportunity, really trying to ask myself, what's the opportunity here to really give and serve? And wow, I've got a great guest on the show for you today.

More than ever, it is essential that we master our mind. We must take care of ourselves and nurture our mindset. And today is the perfect guest to help us do that. Michael Gervais is a high-performance psychologist working with some of the best in the world, training the mindset skills and practices essential to pursuing and revealing one's potential. His clients include world record holders, Olympians, international acclaimed

artists and musicians, MVPs from every major sport, and Fortune 100 CEOs. Dr. Gervais is also the co-founder of Compete to Create, a joint venture with Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll, which has built a framework to enhance high performance cultures by focusing on mindset training for individuals. More than 30,000 employees from across Microsoft and AT&T have completed the high performance mindset training course. Gervais is also a published and peer reviewed author and recognized speaker on optimal human performance. He is the host of Finding Mastery, a podcast that takes you inside the rugged and high-stakes environments of those on the path of mastery to explore how they train their minds to be at their very best. Dr. Gervais received his undergrad degree from Loyola Marymount University

and completed his PhD while studying under Dr. Bruce Ogilvie. In this podcast, Mike and I talk about the journey I've actually been on after hearing Mike's keynote in September. And so I am vulnerable to how I've really grown and learned since September based on something Mike said in that keynote. We talk about what to do with the excessive anxiety that you may be feeling right now, how to care less about what other people think, what mastery is to him, why we need to live on the edge between vulnerability and courage each day, and some of the lessons he's learned from some of the best athletes and coaches in the world. I had two favorite parts on this podcast. First, I appreciated

the advice he gave me about being courageous and vulnerable. And the second thing I appreciated what he said is he said not to let the external distractions dictate the internal. A perfect reminder in today's world. If you enjoyed today's episode, wherever you're listening, please subscribe and give us a five-star rating. I am working on attracting amazing guests for you, and that's going to help us get higher on iTunes and Apple Podcasts. So please head over, give us a five-star rating and review wherever you're listening. It's just going to help improve the podcast. So I really appreciate that. And reach out to Mike and let us know what you appreciated about this podcast. What were your

favorite parts? You can tag us on social as you are listening. Mike on Twitter is at Michael Gervais and I am at mentally underscore strong. And you can find me everywhere else by searching syndra camp off. Without further ado, let's bring on Michael Gervais. I really enjoyed, Michael, your ASP presentation this year. I took quite a bit of notes and there was one thing that you told me or you told us you, I thought you were talking to me. Oh, that's always fun when you hit that mark, right? Yeah. Thank you. And thank

you for the compliment. Yeah. It was great. You said something like this and you said, can you be yourself in every situation under every circumstance? And when I was sitting, listening to you, I, at that point said, no, you know, I was like, I can't be. And particularly where I was struggling at the time was really ego-oriented environments, right? And I have spent four years working with the Minnesota Vikings. So you kind of think like, well, it's actually the place that I thrive the most in like these ego-oriented environments, but it's hard to be yourself. So I went on this quest since September to try to be in myself in every situation. And I had an opportunity, let's see, it would be in January

to speak to 40 NFL coaches. And my only goal was to be myself. And it was interesting. I walk in the room and you know, body language, right? They're kind of sitting like this. One guy had his like hands all the way up his armpits like this, just so closed off. And in that moment, I could have easily been concerned about what they were thinking about me, right? Instead of that I'm here for a reason and deliver this, these powerful strategies that I've been learning, that I've been observing. And really, I went back to my only goal is to be myself. So I thank you for that, because it really has helped me do this work a little bit more, for sure, authentically. And I think I just show up in a more present.

That's how I would describe it. And so what I'd love for you to share with other people who are listening is can you be yourself in every situation under every circumstance? What does that mean to you? And how have you done that in really, really ego masculine environments? Yeah, that's cool. Well, first of all, nice work, you know, like setting that, that goal to be about it in those environments and then, you know, having the skills to back it up, if you will. So nice work there. What does it mean? It means to know who you are. And when you know who you are, that's the kind of the big container to get, or the big rock to get in the container. And so that takes a long time.

Yeah. That takes, you know, and there's three ways of self-discovery that I found to be really powerful and as a general framework self-discovery is sitting with yourself and you know non-critically non-judgmentally just observing and learning you know and that's where the art and skill of mindfulness come into play and then the other is writing and writing creates this forcing function to choose words in your native language to say it's this no no no it's not that it's this and it's this forcing function and it if we're not careful it sounds so fifth grader ish you know but it's really a powerful medium and then if you can't get with those two which ideally you do all three of these if you can't get with those two, which ideally you do all three of these. If you can't get with those two, though, sitting with somebody that is wise, a wise man or a wise woman. Yeah, it could be somebody on your neighborhood. It could be somebody in your tribe. It could be somebody that you hire,

like a psychologist, if they, you know, can help you out there. But it's those three functions to really understand who you are. And then back in the skills, the mental skills to be about it. And I think just like with just about everything that we want to do as humans, setting the, having a really clear vision, like, okay, this is what it looks like and this is how I'm going to do it. And then practicing it on a regular basis. And then when you practice it, like, let's say it's not with the NFL coach, you know, leaning back in his chair, but you practice it, like, let's say it's not with the NFL coach, you know, leaning back in his chair, but practice it in your living room, practice it walking down

the street, practice it in small rooms, practice it in safe environments, and then more rugged environments. And then before you know it, over time, it's like, you just are yourself. And it's, I'll tell you, there's a lot of freedom there. Yeah, there's a lot of freedom there to not worry about what other people think and to be yourself. And so tell us a little bit about your journey in terms of doing that and specifically in maybe these more masculine ego environments like the NFL or other places that maybe you've

been. I think it's, I'm not sure for me if it's like the masculine piece, but I think it's that it's going into environments where people are highly skilled and they've got a real strong point of view. They tend to be more correct with their opinions and ideas than wrong and they've been tested. So going into those environments, independent of gender, that it's like, okay, well, at some point, we all need to learn. And that goes for that person and me.

And so creating an environment of learning is kind of the first place that I noticed it really helps get into that place where we can all explore and get better and grow and be ourselves. But when it's not those environments, and it's's opinionated and it is critiqued or there's high criticalness in the environments that's where it's trickier so but the commitment is to not let the external dictate the internal and i'll tell you i've been in those environments a lot and whether it's the NFL or it is you know stuff that in the backcountry we're doing an action sports when the athletes are the best in the world or it's musicians who you know they fill up in

stadiums within 10 minutes of announcing their own tour like they're good they're really good they know their stuff so it's not trying to be anything other than be the person that you are and hopefully when we really strip it down it's like we're learners and so that's what helps me is get into that framework to be a learner to be a beginner yeah be curious and but also know what I do know to be true. And the things that I don't know to be excited to learn. And I feel like that is this breath of fresh air for many environments. And then the second part of that is it gets tricky when your relationship with them is connected

to their outcome. And at the same time, it's connected to your outcome. Right. And so detangling that is really an important process. And the detangling is like, hey, listen, I'm going to hold up a mirror. Sometimes you're going to hear and see things you don't like to see, but I'm going to do that. And I'm also going to be, I'm going to have that courage to say, I don't get it. That doesn't sound logical. It doesn't sound like you. It doesn't seem like

that's something that seems reasonable even. And, you know, like sometimes say no, like that doesn't work for me either. And so having that barometer to be able to hold up a mirror and honestly reflect and then have a gauge of what's okay what's not okay what doesn't seem okay and explore that too so I think that that's a breath of fresh air for people who are best in the world at what they do most people my experience is most people are craving that and most of their community are not giving that to them. And so it takes courage, it takes vulnerability, it takes some risks. So those are some of the ways I think about it, but there's so many ways to get at it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and actually that kind of goes to my next question that asked at your talk, you said like every day we need to live on the edge of vulnerability and courage to learn more about who we are. So what do you think holds us back from doing that? I think particularly in our field, it might be as the practitioner, you might be worried about the outcome, right? And how the person performs. But what do you think just generally for people, what holds us back from showing vulnerability and courage and learning more about who we are? Yeah, good question. I think the number one culprit, and nothing is this simple as I'm about to say,

but humans are multidimensional and complicated. But I think that the number one fear for most of us is the fear of other people's opinions. And it's the fear of judgment people's opinions and it's the fear of judgment critique and then what would happen if we didn't measure up to the community or to the person yeah and so because of that we play it safe we play it small we play it in ways to fit in rather than to you know to be authentic and sometimes we don't play it to fit in, but we play it like we have to be something bigger and come in like in this almost over the top way. So there's strategies, right? Small versus too big. And it's for me, whatever the response is, it usually stems from

the fear of what other people might be thinking about us. And it activates, as you recognize, it activates the same centers of the brain that are ancient. And they are the same centers that are fight, flight, and freeze. And those centers, the amygdala, the limbic system, whatever, whatever, that when those things are online, then it feels like it's life and death,

but it's really just potential ego death. Right. Like being able to work with that space. And it's a funny thing because it's really just potential ego death right like being able to work with that space and it's a funny thing because it's like intellectually you know like you know what's at stake is just risk of ego but it feels like because of all the physiological symptoms that it's real you know in the sense of my heart's pounding my my breathing rate has changed i'm sweating in funky places and you know all of that seems um just like it does if we were being chased down a dark alley by somebody so give us

some insight on how you've learned to uh not worry about other people's opinions well I I mean I suffered with that for a long time and um and so at some point when you get to a place where you just make a decision yeah you know and i think as as people in our professionals in our field is that our job is not to help people feel better but our job is to help them be honest yeah and sometimes that's helping them with a bit more pain feel a bit more pain and so i just got to a place where it was like you know like this just doesn't work anymore so helping people get to that place is really a massive gift so for me I just got tired of it right and um that's how it started it first showed up when I was 15 years old and surfing um showed up all throughout college and then um it showed up early in my

professional life where i had this experience where i was included in the small little group of kind of up-and-coming sports psychologists and it was this passing of the guard from the old guard to the young guard it's this beautiful kind of three-day experience and then i wasn't asked back for the second year and And it just was like, wow, okay. And I just went into this place, like, what did I do? What did I say? I wasn't enough. I didn't measure up. I made all these stories up. To this day, I don't really know why. I mean, it's probably all those reasons. And then I just was like, I can't- Maybe none of those reasons.

Maybe none. And then, so just said like the this sounds so simple but it's like hey you know what um i'm giving that way too much time and energy and um there's two things i i want to go upstream to my purpose and that's getting me away from purpose and um it's certainly getting away from me you know know, being free. And so, I don't know, you just get tired of it. If it's enough, you get tired of it. I have this quote by Daniel Amen, and he says something like, when you're 20, you think everyone's thinking about you. When you're 40, you know, you've maybe seen it, you know,

you realize no one's been thinking about you. When you're 60, you don't give a darn what other people think of you. But I like the idea is just that as you age, I think you also realize no one's really thinking about you anyway, you know, and so maybe that's also a reason to not care as much about other people's opinions. I appreciate that insight. So since we're talking about courage and vulnerability, I'm wondering if you could share about a time that you failed and what you learned from it. That's a good question.

And when I think about failure, I don't think about it like kind of scoreboard success or failure. I fail so many times throughout the day because I'm trying to figure it out. And so, like, I just want to say it that way that I'm not even sure of my failures. Yeah. Because it's like it's gone. it's gone, it's gone. And like, I might've said something to our conversation that missed the mark or whatever, but it's gone and I'm trying to figure out the next. So you're trying to stay in the present.

Yeah. So I don't really think about it like a scoreboard in that way. Like, Oh, that was a massive failure. It's like, I think about it more like free and then everything else is kind of substandard. And like, am I able to express myself authentically? And then everything else is substandard. And I think about it more that way. And the substandard is fine. It's all part of it. You know, people talk about all the time, like

failure is part of life, get good at failing. and I think like taking swings is part of it so get good at taking swings it doesn't mean you're gonna get a home run a triple a double grand slam single that doesn't mean anything it's just but I'm gonna keep swinging at it and um so I have a hard time actually thinking about it that way yeah and then, but the way I do think about failure is when I know I have something to say or to do and I hold back. Okay. And so that's the way I think about it. And I've just made a commitment to myself that, um, that to me is way too painful. And so you had to say, to say something artistic, artistically and gracefully and to not do it when the timing calls for it, that's what I think is remember saying, hearing something about, you said like failure is what a time when you're not being authentic. And I thought that's a great, a really interesting and cool way to

describe failure because you're right. Like I think failure can in our society be, you know, you, you score, you don't score, you miss, or you make the shot. Right. And I'd encourage people as they're listening, what is your definition of failure? But so tell us about a time where, and I want to ask you this question a little bit more and stay on it because sometimes I think we hear people like you and all these accomplishments and we think, well, you know, Mike's never failed. But can you think of a time where maybe you didn't speak up and you wish you would have and maybe there was some pain there that you didn't speak up yeah for me it's like um I can just think like yesterday like that something was happening in my home and I wish I just had a little more patience a little more grace like I don't

it's not like it's a failure but it's like I wasn't able to be that be the man I want to be and so it's like these little thin slices of optimized substandard optimized so you know it's like that and i'm i've spent way more time in the sub the sub place than the optimal but um like if you want to think about big frames and i'm not trying to skirt the skirt the question by any means but in big frames but it's really like challenging because i don't think about it that way yeah um in big frames it's probably the things that i don't even quite realize like i um oh i can tell you a good story is um okay so i had i was given a really amazing business opportunity and it was like it was a good one let's just say like everything lined up to be amazing and I I took a

little too long in pulling the trigger and I was in the airport going up to sign the document and it was about three weeks of a negotiation back and forth and I was gonna work with the company it was good three weeks of a negotiation back and forth. And I was going to work with the company and it was good. Like I said, without details, just trust me that this was going to be a game changer for my family. Yeah. And so I'm going up, I'm in the airport and I'm going to sign the documents. And, um, the, the, the gentleman called me, the CEO called me, He says, hey, good news or bad news?

I go, oh, gee, like, okay. And I said, it doesn't matter. And he says, good news is I just accelerated my contract and I got paid XX million dollars last night. And I'm talking about big dollars. Yeah. And just sub 100 million. Okay.

I was like, wow. I said, great, good for you. And he goes, yeah, bad news is that the new person coming in is he's probably not interested in working with you oh yeah so um failure i don't know but certainly a lesson on um moving fast is certainly a lesson on capturing opportunities when they're there and not kind of letting them slip through. Yeah. So, you know, and that would have been, like I said, a game shifter, but I'm not a material spiritual person. Like, so I took the next step in another direction and trying to figure that out the best I can.

And it leads to wherever we are today. So. And the lesson that you feel like you took from that is just being a little more quick with your decisions related to business or what's the lesson you took from that? Yeah. Is, you know, it was speed. It was a decision about speed. Okay. Yeah. That was the takeaway. Yeah. So your podcast is called Finding Mastery. Excellent. So people should check out your podcast. What does mastery mean to you? And how has it evolved? Because you've been, you know, I know part of your interviews is asking people what they think mastery is. So I'd love to hear what you think. And then how has it evolved over interviewing hundreds of people. Thank you. It's been, we've had about 242 interviews, which is like,

like I'm amazed that we're able to kind of crank through these things. And they are with people that are extraordinary. And so it took the first hundred and push them through a machine learning algorithm to, to try to make sense of the themes and the streams and the applied insights that were shared and so I can share some insights from the science there and I can also share kind of tonally you know what I'm capturing and feeling by being through the interviews let me start with the last and then we'll get to the science is that so when I first uh conceptually i knew the difference between mastery of craft and mastery of self and it's become just more apparent that how different they are and how strongly interrelated they are and how most people are interested in something less than mastery

but they're interested in high performance they're interested in you know peak performance maybe and that's certainly down below mastery and it and it's more about craft and self okay and so I'm walking away right now from the 240 some under the belt that I'm more interested in mastery of self through mastery of craft and mastery of self is really about self-discovery and the tools to authentically express yourself. It's about understanding the space between the spaces. It's the nuances of who you are, as opposed to, you know,

kind of the thoughts about who you want somebody to think you are. And so that's the authentic authenticity piece. And I'm also like, really like, I wrestle with just how hard it is to describe what really goes into mastery of self. And so I don't have a framework lined up yet. I do know that self-discovery is a big part of it. And then mental skills are a second part of it for the master of self-peace. And I also know that from the research standpoint, is that purpose is a big deal for most. Most people that have been on the podcast that are truly committed to mastery, their purpose is clear. And I also know that those that write goals and are committed to

like the structure of goals report having less absorption in their life, less flow state, if you will. People are, according to the research, they are connected to what matters to them. And they tend to care about other people and ideas more than, you know, money, fame and recognition. So, you know, there's some interesting stuff there. And I think there's a surprisingly, it's easy to romanticize that people that are on the path of mastery are internally driven more so than externally driven. But that's not showing up to be the case. There are people that are, I think that gap is a little bit more shallow than we might think, meaning that people are internally driven and for both intrinsic and extrinsic rewards.

So that's an interesting bit of information for me. And then last thing, and I'll stop talking about it, is when I first started, is that I thought the clever definition of mastery was the game recognizes game. Okay. And meaning that... Okay. What's that? The game recognizes game? Yeah yeah like that's how you

can spot it if you understand master you can see it and feel it and observe it like in somebody else you even if you don't play the violin but you understand what goes into making something complicated beautiful and something simple as it seems and And so if you understand it, you can see it. And so that's one clever way I thought to think about it. And then I started to learn so much from these men and women that it's not, it's not that simple. And it's more about like the goal is the path as opposed to it's about recognizing it or something else.

So mastery is the unfolding goal of learning, you know, it's the unfolding path, I should say, of discovery. And the further you go into something, it sounds so trite, but the further you go into something, the more you know you don't know. And so there's more to learn. And so I will say that there's been this theme of humility that has been, you know, like so easy to catch. Like humility is just absolutely pervasive. And when somebody is struggling with it and they're more arrogant than

they are humble, it just jumps right off the page. So. So one question I have that I think about, I think this relates to mastery, but one of the things I noticed, particularly in the guys in the NFL last very long when, let's say, a newspaper article comes out about them and they're really critiquing the player or there's a lot of negativity on Twitter or social media that they read, that they can let it sear their confidence. And I see them not stay around very long when they do that. So what do you think about this idea of, you know, what kind of this watch me mentality, sort of like they can turn this adversity into, I'll show you. And do you think that has anything to do with mastery? Yeah, sure. I think that it's a, it's a, it's a benchmark. It's a bus stop, if you will,

on the path. It's, I think it's really cool cool i've seen it a lot with people when something is written or whatever and like there was this right up on the seahawks wide receivers a couple years back that they were pedestrian right they loved that they're like oh pedestrian huh and so it just sharpened them up a little bit um i think that though there's a substandard nature to that a little bit i think it's great you can use it substandard nature to that a little bit. I think it's great. You can use it. It's fine, but it's an external driver for the internal, which is harder to sustain. It's better when it comes from within. Yeah. So I think it's fine. It's good. And I need it sometimes too. It's like, it's hard to be 100% internally driven. That's a hard thing to do. And I will say though,

when the external drives the internal, what ends up happening is you fall potential prey to the external influencing the internal. And so let's say that somebody is bigger, faster, stronger, they've got better stats, they're on a roll, roll we're in home that we're in their stadium and you know and there's an external hostile environment right and it's letting us it's influencing the internal that that becomes a little problematic if you don't have the right chip or the bite or yeah that's to want to like you know try me type of type of mentality so I think the strongest humans are the ones that the internal that the external does not dictate the internal but the internal dictates how they influence the external it doesn't mean it's always going to go your way but you are going

to be you and I think that's a big part of it so I think it's fun I love it when I'm in it um for me too like it's like yeah good try me you know let's go and I I wished five seven ten probably like ten years ago now I wish that there was a sports psychology competition you know because I read so much I love research and you know I'd love to have some sort of jeopardy competition for you know stuff and I'm not saying I'm gonna win but I'm gonna give it a strong go and so I would love something like that to see yeah well we'll talk to ASP about that how about yeah yeah that'd be funny um can you tell us a story about um a lesson that you learned either from a top athlete that you've worked with or performer or a coach? A lesson. Yeah. There's a couple big ones that just jump right out at me. One is

the ones that I enjoy working with the most are the ones that get to the edge of their capacities and they know that they're at the edge and they know that the community is what's going to help them get to the next step. And so those are the most fun ones. It's like they've exhausted everything they possibly can get out of themselves by themselves or with a small community. And now they need a bigger community. And those are the fun ones because they're scared and they're nervous and they're anxious and they're overwhelmed and they're like, I need, I need to, you know, I need to understand better and be better so that I can express myself better. And so those are like the most fun ones. And it's a reminder to me, like, yeah, what edges are you running to? You know? And like, when you get to the edge,

can you dance? And when you can't dance, do you find the people in your community that are going to help you dance? So those are the most fun ones. And then the importance of trying to figure out the dimensional part of being human. And so there's a dark side, there's a cost to living in a highly outcome-based world and that balance that i'm not even sure i understand well enough is the balance between work and home and i think it to me it's this mythical ridgeline like it does not exist and people talk about sacrifice all the time and those that i've worked with that are tip of the arrow, best in the world at what they're doing, they, they don't, they don't see like, they tend to love what they do. So the sacrifice is not more time in the gym, the sacrifice is a bit of loneliness. It's the, the knowing that you might be letting people down that you really do love and you're letting them down. So it's that, it's that

sacrifice that it is, it's not the, the hard work that they're putting them down. So it's that, it's that sacrifice that it is, it's not the, the hard work that they're putting into the craft. It's the other more lonely parts of life that are, that's the real cost. So there was a few questions, lots of questions actually that were submitted on Twitter. Let's get to a few. So one person asked, could you ask Michael, he says that you train three parts of you, of a person, right? Your body, your craft and your mind. And he's asking, could your spirit potentially be a separate means of improvement? What do you think about that? That's a good question. And I used to put an ash, I used to have four and then I slid the fourth one off spirit off to an asterisk and so the only kind of literature that I can find for training spirit is from st. loyal st. Loyola of Ignatius and he did some writings on it. And then that's kind of it.

So if the person who wrote it can put me down a path, I really do want to understand it. And I describe myself as a spiritual man first. And the way that I'm coming at that conversation is that I can't be in connection or harmony or what's the word I'm looking for blanking on the word but I can't be connected let's just put a note on that what's true beautiful and good if I am NOT in the present moment right so what keeps me from the present moment is the unconditioned nature of my mind right the inability to manage perceived or real risk and so

that's why i start with the mind so that i can be at the present moment and that's where true beautiful and good is expressed and and um connected to and so that that's how I get after it. And so I'd love, like I've studied, you know, from a, let's call it a thin standpoint, the 11 world religions, like not, not the depths that, I mean, they're so mystically beautiful, but I can't see another way about it right now. Maybe it's because I can't, I just can't see it, but I don't know how to do it. I'll put the note on Twitter to the person who asked that question, and we'll see if he has any response to that. Yeah, and hold on, Sindhu. I think it's really a beautiful question.

I don't think, though, that the Bible, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, I don't think that those are the ways to train spirit. And so I think that those are ways to think about principles to guide thoughts and actions. Right. And the way to train spirit is to open up our ability to be in the presence of fill in the blank. And so that for me, again, I don't think it's, I don't think it's the spiritual tomes that are teaching training spirit, but I definitely could be wrong. Another question that was submitted was, how do you convey the value of mindfulness-based approaches in sports psychology or in sport performance, especially with maybe football

players who don't necessarily buy in, was the question. but I know a lot of your work is mindfulness based. So what's your thoughts on describing that to somebody who maybe is unaware or just learning about it for the first time? Okay, cool question. I think the first is living it. And it's kind of like, I know for me, when there's somebody that's got a way about them, that's really interesting or attractive or inviting, like I kind of lean into it, like, what are they about? Like, what are they like, how is that working? Yeah. And so I think the first order business is living it, demonstrating it, living it. And what does that mean? It means being present. It means being highly aware. It means being a beginner and a learner. it means being humbled by wisdom and so

um i think that's the first order business and the second is like if if uh let's say let's create a scenario that the coach says okay and cinder is going to teach us all about mindfulness right like how would you go about that um i think the first thing is to leverage, if you can, the people, their heroes, you know, that might be interested or might be down the path. And so if they've got people they look up to or mentors or heroes in the zeitgeist from way back when or whatever, is to borrow some of that glow saying, okay, I want to talk about something that's been around 2,600 years. Science is ridiculous. I'll get to that in a moment.

But there are some of the best in the world who are talking about it. And I want to share what they're talking about. And I want to show you exactly how they practice. And then it's so it's borrowing the glow from the ones that are a beacon for it. And so that's like, I don't know, there's no, there's no right and wrong way to do it. But that seems to get people's attention a little bit. But I think the first one is the big one. Not so much the second one.

Yeah, I think what you're saying is 2600 years. And here's all of the top performers that are talking about using mindfulness in business in sport so um yeah and and then i would say just that you hit a good note there is that i don't think it's necessarily like using mindfulness but mindfulness is the way mindfulness yeah yeah so here's the way you know as opposed to this means to an end right the practice of mindfulness is the end in and of itself right and that's why it's like the goal is the path yeah and and the goal is to be aware to get to the present moment more often to have moments of insight that lead to wisdom and so it's those four components that are i don't know, I just can't see another way through it.

You know, so awareness of four things, thoughts, emotions, body sensations, and the unfolding environment. And when you have those, you live in the present moment more often because you're using mental skills, of course, correct. And then you have these aha moments, these insights. And with enough of those, you get down to what wisdom is. Yeah. And so, I don't know the gold dust is relaxation but that's not the purpose of mindfulness the gold dust is that you'll be a better executor and hostile environments you'll sleep

better you'll whatever it does all the research stuff but that's gold dust it's not the gold got it got it okay here's one more question that was asked hey soon I want to say I want to say thank you for um just letting me talk shop and kind of play and explore a little bit i was like we could do this for a couple hours but i know i'm trying to keep us on track but it's really hard because i want to go into the depth of a lot of different places but given the time constraints i know uh i can't but one more question so So when you catch yourself going down the wrong path, mentally, how do you reset? Meaning what do you do?

Cool question. So it happens all the time, right? Because I've got old habits. I've got the way that I think about thoughts are, there's two ways I like to use analogies. One is that we've got these seeds and whatever we water, they grow. And some seeds are more weeds and some seeds are beautiful flowers. And, you know, I've got weeds that I've been watering for a long time. Like I think about, you know, the seeds of anger, frustration, worry, like I've got those seeds too. And so when I noticed that I'm watering one of those seeds, I can feel it. I can feel the difference between smelling a rose and the kind of constricting nature of a weed.

And so it is the practice of mindfulness to gently without judgment and critique go, oh, I see what I'm doing. Come on back. It's like, that's it like oh look at that I know where I know where this is going you know and so come on back to the task at hand to a breath to something that is concrete in this present moment and the other way I like to think about thoughts is trains of thought okay and as humans there's lots of trains we can get on and I know the destinations of many of the trains because I've you know it's my life my mind I've ridden on these trains most of my life and I know what it feels like to get on the it's called the F train and I know if I get on the F train it's going to take me to the place that is like I just feel all effed up you know like right you know so

I know what that train smells like. And so when I noticed that I'm on that train, I go, wait a minute, there I am again. And I say, okay, let's get off and get on another train. Right. Right. And so I wish I could put better handles on it, but the, these are the concepts that are just underneath the ability to put words to. So we tend to create metaphors or like it's thoughts are like a running river.

Okay, it's a metaphor because it's just underneath the ability to put words to that where a image is doing it justice, but it falls below somehow. So it's as simple as just hello and goodbye and on to the next. But I spent a lot of time working on not being critical of myself. Yeah. Excellent. I'm so grateful that you spent time with us today, Mike. So I'm really grateful for the work that you do. I think you help us all in terms of when you get out there with your work, it just helps grow the field. And yeah, thank you.

Grateful for that as a practitioner. And I'm grateful to learn from you today and to ask you some questions that I've been wanting to ask you. So thank you so much for the work that you do and just helping all the high performers out there. So I love it. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Like, I love the vibe. I love, thank you for all of that. And I love the fact that you are in your community that you're leading, you know, with curiosity and kindness, and you're leading with like shared practices about how we can become yes and right now i just want to say so we're in the kind of the midst of the coronavirus conversation i'm not sure when this airs but um just a couple notes if i could one is um right now is i think more than

ever there's a couple things that are evident one it's the first time in my life, your life, I've seen the planet fly in formation. The globe is flying, our global community is flying in formation, radical. The second thing is that right now is a fantastic time for those who are able to demonstrate what it means to be present in the face of an adversity and uncertainty like lead you know and your whole community I want to

say if you're switched on to these types of conversations you have it within you yeah to be grounded to show what strength looks like the show what a commitment to immunity building looks like. And so like your people, your community needs you. And so I think it's a very special time. I think it's a very hard time. I think there's a powerful flexion point that's going to take place for us. And we will be reminded about how important people are and how temporary

life is. And we're going to need everybody in the community to stand up, you know, and to have purpose. And that purpose to take care of other people by showing them what it means to be strong and compassionate and, you know, make discerned decisions about how to move forward. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I think what I took most from what you just said is me continuing to be a good role model for this as well and for staying present and compassionate and building relationships I do see it's part of my purpose to disseminate information about or strategies or tools in a really practical way that's what I know that I'm here for. You know, I've spent a lot of time really thinking about that and thinking about what

my superpower might be in terms of how do I help people. And I think right now it's a time where there's so much fear and anxiety and unknown. It can be really easy to live in the future and to not practice. Awesome. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, very cool. So what final advice would you have for people who are listening, Michael? Oh, good. I don't have any advice. Like, you know, like, I don't, I, yeah, I'd say just my hope, maybe is that people will

triple down on getting to know themselves and triple down on breathing strategies to, you know, I'm taking 500 to a thousand deep breaths a day because I'm constantly being pinged with things that are alarm bells from outside of me. And so, you know, like I'd say, awareness, breathing strategies, and then, you know, reconnecting to what purpose is for you right now. Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for you then. And just in terms of spending time today and being on the show. Awesome. Thanks, Sindra. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow. Did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to

subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-I-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.