High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 325: How to Build Your Resilience with Dr. Karen MacNeill, Performance Psychologist and CPO of Headversity

Episode Date: April 4, 2020

Dr. Karen MacNeill has the unique experience of having both competed and consulted on the World Stage. She is a performance psychologist with over 18 years of experience, having worked with athletes competing at the last 4 Olympic Winter Games, and competed herself at the international level for over a decade. Most recently, she was the Lead Mental Performance Consultant for the Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) at the 2018 Winter Olympics in Korea and will perform the same role in the 2021 Olympics in Japan. As part of the day to day routine, Karen thrives having a broad scope of practice focused on building mental health, mental fitness and resilience. She is a founding partner with headversity, a mental wellness tech company that measures, tracks and trains to help people think, feel and be better. Karen is a sought-after presenter and speaker having delivered multiple presentations to CEO forum, leadership conferences and corporate events. She has been invited as a keynote speaker to industry leading conferences, organizational retreats and presented to aspiring leaders at the Young Women of Influence event.   She has also been selected as a TEDx speaker and was to deliver this talk later this spring. In this podcast, Cindra and Karen talk: Resilience strategies you can use right now 3 phrases we may go through during this change Why emotional agility is relevant right now How to see our emotions as data not directors Emotion driven vs. brand driven behavior 2 powerful questions we can ask ourselves to connect with our purpose   For more information about Karen, visit: https://www.headversity.com/

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best so you can accomplish all your goals and dreams. So I'm over here following my big dreams and I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Ms. Pac-Man.

Yes, the 1980s game Ms. Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the high performance mindset. The emotional agility is the ability to sit with your full experience, to acknowledge it with compassion. Yeah, I'm angry that this is gone. Or yeah, I'm feeling scared. And with curiosity. Hmm, why am I reacting that way? What's the need there? Not why in a judgment way, but more in an information gathering way. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Sindhara Kampoff, and welcome to episode 325 with Karen McNeil. Now, I'm so grateful that you're here, more grateful than ever before,

and if you know that mindset is essential to your success, then you're in the right place. I know that now more than ever, it is essential that we train our mind to stay in the present and not live in fear and anxiety. And so I wanted to bring this topic to you today about resilience to help you really build your own resilience during this time of change and adversity. And I've been doing pretty good the last two weeks, focused on new projects and directing

my energy to fun things I have coming up, like the High Performance Mindset Summit, which will be launched on April 17th. So pumped about that. And I always wanted to do something like this. I'm using this time to really direct my energy in unique ways. But today it's sunken. I'm feeling a little bit more emotional today than typical.

And maybe you are experiencing the same thing where your emotions are just a little bit more up and down. That's how I feel. And so it was really great for me to talk to Karen today to help me continue to use these mental skills to stay strong mentally. What an incredible expert thought leader that we have on the podcast today. Now before we jump into the interview, I have a free gift I am pumped to offer you. It is a training that includes my Focus Formula to help you stay on purpose and positive during this time of transition and change. Now, I typically get thousands of dollars to deliver a similar message on stage, but

it is a free gift to you. So if you love this podcast, you are absolutely going to love this training. You can head over to cindracampoff.com slash webinar for the Focus Formula training. You can head over to cindracampoff.com slash webinar for the Focus Formula training. So let me give that to you again. That's cindracampoff.com slash webinar. C-I-N-D-R-A-K-A-M-P-H-O-F-F dot com slash webinar. Now Karen is the perfect guest for us today. Dr. Karen McNeil has a unique experience of having both competed and consulted on the world stage. She's a registered psychologist and performance consultant with over 18 years of experience helping Olympians, organizations, and business leaders consistently bring their best in high

pressure situations. She has worked with athletes competing the last four Olympic Winter Games and competed herself at the international level for over a decade. She knows what she's talking about. Karen applied her knowledge and expertise in her capacity as the manager of sports psychology services for the Vancouver Olympic Committee's medical team at the 2010 Olympic Games. And most recently, she was the lead mental health counselor for the Canadian Olympic Committee at the 2018 Winter Olympics in Korea. And we talk in this interview about how athletes are dealing with the change to the Olympics and

how she's helping them manage that change and transition. So Karen recently became a partner and chief product officer for a digital health media company called headversity which we talk about in this interview which offers innovative education through on-site and online programs to help people build their mental resilience and thrive and i think that's what we really want to do during this time is not just survive but can we thrive so in this podcast, Karen and I talk about resilient strategies that you can use right now, three phases that we might go through during this change, why our emotional agility is relevant right now, and how we can see our emotions as

data, not directors. That was super awesome. Super good. And we talk about motion-driven versus brand-driven behavior. Excellent. And then at the end, she gives us two powerful questions that we can use to ask ourselves right now to connect with our purpose. So two of my favorite quotes were this. She talked about her power phrase right now is, I can adjust and and adapt whatever comes my way. And then at the end, she describes how we have to fly in formation globally. If you enjoyed today's episode, wherever you're listening, please subscribe and give us a five star rating and review. I am attracting better guests than ever before. And this would help us get higher and higher on the iTunes charts, which makes a huge difference.

So thank you so much for doing that wherever you're listening today. Without further ado, let's bring on Karen. So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Karen McNeil. Thank you so much for joining us from Canada. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Karen, there's not very many people who I've had on twice to the podcast. You're only the third person. So I wanted to specifically bring you on

to really talk about what's going on with athletes right now and how can we specifically help them during this time. So I'm just so grateful that you're on today on the podcast with us. Thanks so much. And it's great. I think there's many populations affected by this. So it's good to help our athletes along the way as well. Absolutely. So just for people who didn't listen to the first episode or don't necessarily follow your work, just tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do right now. Yeah, great question. So my passion really, I mean, when we look at my why is to be a difference maker. And so I think in this field, it's developing mental fitness

and building resilience in others so that they can get to be the best version of themselves. And I'm fortunate and grateful enough to do that in a few ways. So as a performance psychologist, I work as the lead mental performance consultant with the Canadian Olympic team, in addition to a variety of other athletes. I'm a co-founder at Headversity, which is a digital mental wellness program for today's workforce. And it measures tracks and trains and builds resilience, which is very timely right now to have it mobile and able to access and help people's mental health and wellness. And then I work as a psychologist in a clinic a couple of days a week as well. So working on the mental health side, a lot of this with leaders and executives. And lastly, just as a speaker, you know, kind of helping to promote thought leadership around performance psychology

and around how we build resilience and get people to be their best. Yeah, awesome. Give us a little sense of, you know, how to how you got to where you are right now with the Canadian Olympic, the Olympic team there, and then just your work as a keynote speaker and a thought leader within resilience. Yeah, I think, you know, really, my starting point was as an athlete. And so I, you know, throughout the years played a variety sport, but it but it was field hockey that ended up choosing me and I played on the Canadian team for about a decade. But it was my first match, where, you know, I trained my body, I trained my skill, but I had not trained my mind. And after, you know, my very first opportunity to represent my country, getting yanked off, I think after like four or five minutes,

because I'm having a little panic attack on the field. And so as I was consoling myself after that, and thinking about it, I thought never again, would I let my mind be a thief of my big moment. And so it forged into this path of performance psychology. So, you know, and really, I think with what I do today, having kind of the breadth of practice, you know, in school, I started with a master's in sports psychology. And then I thought, no, I wanted more psychology. So I did applied psychology. And then my PhD was really incorporating, you know, more organizational psychology, sports psychology, and the clinical side. So today, I'm able, you know, really to develop people in, you know,

those different ways, whether it be on a performance stream, or more on a on a mental health stream. And I appreciate all the different areas that you're working in, you know, mental health, performance, with leaders and business people. So that's awesome. And I appreciated also what you said about never letting your mind be a thief of the big moment. I know you and I have a similar story in that I did let my mind also be the thief of my big moment.

So that's what kind of led me to where I'm at today. I think about how it helped me turn this mess into a message. Yeah, absolutely love that. So tell us a little bit about your role as the lead mental performance consultant and the mental health counselor with the Canadian team. So yes, in Canada, we work a little bit different than in the States. So I know the USOC has hired consultants. And so for our listeners at home, we work a little bit different than in the States. So I know the USOC has hired consultants. And so for our listeners at home, we call mental performance consultants, MPCs. So I'll use that acronym. And so what we have with the Canadian team is we have a few people who are in some roles just to help coordinate things. So as the lead mental performance consultant, I share that

role with Penny Werthner and Peter Jensen. And really, it's to offer professional development to our NPCs when we're at certain events or workshops pertaining to getting people's games ready, in addition to being that liaison with the COC and a consultant to the COC, just to make sure that they're embedding programs that help to develop the mental side of the game. And then the mental health counselor is an interesting role. I think over the years of different games and doing the debriefs, what they identified is a real need to have someone on the ground to kind of deal with things situationally. So the mental health counselor role is an at games role.

My first games was 2018. In this role, my first games as a consultant was 2002. So been there a couple times as a consultant and then into this role. And so really three functions of this role is number one, kind of to care for the mental health, provide some counseling as needed to the Olympic, the Canadian Olympic team. And when we talk about that, it's not just the athletes and coaches, but it's also the staff that's surrounding that team. And as we know, one in five are going to have a mental health issue in this year. And so that's going to happen with our organization. So just being there to be available. The second part of that role is crisis intervention. So when issues that are that are disrupting, or, you know, whether it's it's

it could be, you know, a smaller incident, or it could be a larger one, to be able to have a team in place to be able to manage that. And then lastly, the performance consultation. So just the situational most teams will have an NPC with them. Some will not. So it's being able to provide that, whether it's the athletes or whether it's some of the leadership within there. And when you think about what athletes are struggling with right now, given the current circumstances of COVID-19 and particularly how their season has ended, maybe not even started, right? The Olympics have been moved back one year.

What do you see them struggling with right now, Karen? Yeah, and you know what? It's really variable. So one thing that we've done is we've created a COVID-19 mental health task group. And so once again, in Canada, we have a variety of partners that service our national sport organization. So Canadian Olympic team being one own the podium, the Canadian Paralympic Committee, our sports centers across the country game plan, which is more of a athlete wellness, Canadian Center for mental health and sports. So we have a variety

of partners. And so what we've done is we've gotten a representative from each one of these organizations together to form a task force to really look and assess the needs. And so we've been holding calls with our NPCs across the country right now focusing on the summer sports. And we'll be starting with our winter sports shortly to assess those needs and get a sense. And then also, what are the resources we need to help them? So to your question of what's coming up, and there's a few different things, it's varied. I think one thing that's helped me to kind of frame this or contextualize it is I almost see this situation happening in phases.

And so, first of all, there's kind of that acute crisis phase. So, you know, we went from living our normal lives to everyone, we need to you to keep your distance to everyone needs to be at home. And for these athletes, it's, you know, Olympics is on to modify training to Olympics is off. And then there's that working through phase. So we're kind of adjusting to what we've just found out what we've just heard. And then there's that kind of aftermath phase where it's, you know, what's the impact this is having. And the thing we got to realize is, is this is happening over and over again. So we had the acute phase where, okay, it's, it's, is it going to be delayed? Is it not? And then we had the postponement phase, right? And so we were having multiple acute phases,

working through phases and aftermath. So by the so we're having multiple acute phases, working through phases and aftermath. So by the time we get to our ninth one, people may be fatigued by this. And so we have to kind of keep that into consideration. And so I think, Sindra, on that phase, you know, depending on the different phase that people are at, there's going to be different things coming up. So once again, everyone's going to have their own experience. But what we're seeing is, you know, there's, you know, people who had mental health, that's being wrapped up a little bit, given the current situation. Grief and loss.

So, you know, I had an athlete who trained and was feeling so ready for trials, and this was going to be the opportunity. And all that hard work he couldn't show in these moments, right? So it's, I think, the grief and loss and helping people process motivation and focus. So they had this goal, they had this mindset, or this kind of endpoint they were working towards. Now, you know, for part of the time, it was taken away from them and so so how do they struggle with it and and resulting from that guilt I should be motivated I should be you know all those different things um and I think that comes from the the lack of structure and routine so so those are are some of the the high level things that we're kind of noticing and seeing yeah I

really like your idea of all three of these phases, the acute phase, the work-through phase, the aftermath phase. And maybe some people are still in like this acute crisis phase, you know, just still trying to adapt. It feels kind of like a crisis. Some of us might be in the work-through phase. How do you see, let's talk about maybe each of these separately, but I'm specifically thinking about the work-through phase. What do you think, let's talk about maybe each of these separately, but I'm specifically thinking about the work through phase. What do you think is important during this, that phase to be doing from a mental perspective and even a mental health perspective?

Yeah. And I think that's the thing we've got to realize is when people, when we say the word crisis, some people can react like thinking like real traumatic events and you know, and the thing crisis is, is simply when there's been a disruption. Right. And everyone's going to respond differently. And it's a disruption where where livelihood or that there's a real threat to an individual to a certain extent, which is which is what we're finding ourselves in. And so I think helping people, the very, very first thing is meeting them where they're at. And that's why I think in my brain, I've kind of identified these different phases, because some people are still in that crisis. And what do we do? And how do I switch? And, you know, and so they're in that the interventions and each one is going to be different. And so it's meeting them where they're at, and acknowledging their experience. And then I think that's one of the biggest things too, is helping them to process and validate and normalize their emotional reaction to all of this.

So, so once again, another athlete I had, you know, it was this whole idea of I can't help, but, but be disappointed and frustrated and mad, but I know I'm supposed to be optimistic. And so I think the whole idea there is, yes, we've got to focus on, you know, how we work through this. At the same time, you know, those emotions are there for a reason. Susan David, she has a book on emotional agility and really talks about the importance of seeing our emotions as data versus a director. So not letting it direct your behavior, but using it as data. What is that emotion? What is that telling me about it's important that all the hard work you paid, you put into this, that you can demonstrate that and you can test yourself and prove that you are ready.

And so finding creative ways to help them explore that, but also normalize and validate those experiences. So I think partly meeting them where they're at, acknowledging and validating the experience. And then it's also, you know, what's the opportunity in this? Peter Jensen, one of our seasoned sports psychologists said the other day on one of the calls is, is what an amazing training ground this is. We've got uncertainty, we've got stress, we've got, you know, the need to adapt and react, like what a better training ground to build resilience and mental fitness skills, right. So, so it's using all that and, and, and showing them that this could actually work for them and get them prepared. Wow. So many really good points there. I appreciated what you

said about like meeting them where they're at and those emotions are important that they don't just kind of push aside and they really tell you what's important to you. So I think that right there, we just kind of have to let that sit in for people because I think some of us can maybe, I saw Brene Brown kind of talk about this last week of like, we can compare our suffering to someone else and we can be, you know, thinking, well, gosh, it seems so much easier for them than it is for me, you know, and, and maybe beat ourselves up for that, but instead have some grace because we're all in this together. Right. And we have no idea how long this is going to last. Uh, but I appreciated what you said about, um, the data, seeing emotions as

data, not a director. Wow. Is that powerful? Yeah. And, and that's Susan David. She's been doing like she, so she had her uh TED talk that was that was you know highly viewed and then and Ted's been doing you know some of these series and she was on the other day and then she's written this book on it um but you know it's interesting because she talks about you know she did in her research I think she she interviewed 70,000 people on you know what do you do when things become difficult? And, and we either bottle things up and minimize or ignore or don't address them, or we brood on them, which, and then we get stuck in our emotions, right? And, and, and both can, can impact our mental health and not be productive

for us. So, so it's really, you know, the, the emotional agility is the ability to sit with your full experience, to acknowledge it with compassion. Yeah, I'm angry that this is gone. Or yeah, I'm feeling scared. And with curiosity, why am I reacting that way? What's the need there? Not why in a judgment way, but more in an information gathering way. Yeah, really helpful, Karen, really good stuff. When you think about the aftermath phase, what are you thinking that means? And what's what is that going to

include? What's that going to look like for athletes or just us in general, who maybe aren't participating in sport right now, but just trying to, you know, go through these changes that we're experiencing every day? Yeah, and I think, you know, once again, the need in this phase is to do a bit of a resource audit and, and do a bit of a, you know, looking at my context specifically. So the working through phase is like, I've been given this information, you know, there's high anxiety around it. Now we know that the Olympics have been postponed.

I'm working through kind of accepting that. And what does that mean? In this aftermath phase, I think this is where, you know, and this is the chat, this is where COVID is so unique. You know, if you have an injury or, or, um, you know, if there's, if you have, you know, if you've gone through, um, some challenges in sport, there's usually a start and an end point where with this, we, we just don't know what the end point is and what it looks like we can guesstimate from what we're seeing in china and all those kind of things and so i think in that aftermath phase we need to create some structure and some planning so we've got to forecast into the future okay if the games go ahead in next summer if i work myself back to

now um what are some of the things i need to do? So start thinking about it that way. But then also acknowledging, I don't know if that forecasting is going to be accurate. So what can I do this month? You know, where, what is what is going to have the most impact, you know, starting with that forecasting in terms of where do I need to be to create that vision, and whether it's an athlete, whether it's a business, whether it's a, you know, a parent who's looking at their child and missing school kind of getting the grand vision, but then bringing it back to now. And, and in this next month, this is going to be our focus and then bringing it back to the week and then, and then to the day. Right.

And that's where that mindfulness tool can be so helpful if we're, if we're getting caught in the what ifs and, and not being able to plan for all this uncertainty. Absolutely. So I'm hearing like it's important to plan, thinking about forecasting and thinking about, okay, if it is, you know, if this is extended until May or June, then this will be my focus, but also not getting caught up in that because that's something that we can't control. That's right. And, and JF Menard, I know, you know, JF. So one thing he offered to our community, and I thought it was

really interesting. He was talking about talking with an athlete and, and, and it went something like, you know, if you, if I told you two months ago, your entire season would be canceled. Or if I told you two weeks ago, our country would be on lockdown. Or if I told you two days ago, the COC wouldn't be sending a team, you know, could you have predicted that? And the answer is no. And so, you know, in two days from now, in two weeks from now, in two months from now, you know, there'll be some more unpredictable things, right? And so it's partly the ability to create enough structure and planning, but also the nimbleness to be able to adapt and react. And I think that's where,

you know, that, that internal locus of control. So, so focusing on what's in your control, that little whisper, I can adjust or adapt to whatever comes my way. Right. So that ability to kind of tolerate and, um, handled by focusing on, okay, I don't know what's going to happen there, but this is what I can do. Yeah. And you're right. This is a great training ground to be able to really improve our resilience skills and develop like our mental strength so that when competition does start again, we have these additional strategies and tools that we can use to really be at our best when we want to perform well. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's the thing with some of these Olympians, like really, when we look at the difference makers going into the Olympics, you know, it's, it's working as a

team, it's making sure you have your plans, and it's having resilient individuals. All of this condition is going to boost our starting point and our ability in all of those areas. You know, and I want to go back to what you were saying about Susan David's idea of like data, not director, like our emotions are our data. To me, that means like it's information, but it doesn't have to dictate what we're going to do or where we're going to go or how we're going to, how we're going to continue to feel is, would that be accurate in terms of how I'm explaining that? Yeah, Cindra, and I kind of, I kind of equal it to like, I kind of talk about it when I'm, when I'm speaking with folks is you've got emotion driven behavior where I am feeling, you know, in this situation, let's take this situation. I'm feeling, I'm feeling this is unpredictable. I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling frustrated. Um, and, and I'm feeling like I'm lacking control, which can lead into certain behaviors, buying all the toilet

paper, um, you know, hoarding all those kinds of things. Cause all we're trying to do is get that sense of control versus having brand driven behavior. And your brand is really, how do I want to show up in this circumstance? What do I want to be known for? Who is the athlete? Who is the leader? Who is the consultant I want to be? And so giving yourself almost some grounders. So for me in this situation, I've committed to trying to be grounded, calm, and proactive. That doesn't always match my internal world. I'm anxious sometimes, and I'm uncertain sometimes. But external facing, and let's be clear, and my husband will tell you that I'm not always 10 out of 10 on those ones,

but it at least guides me when I'm feeling emotionally overwhelmed, right? So I think that's the thing. And that's the data versus director is, you know, instead of having emotion driven behavior and letting our emotions direct our behaviors and what we're going to do, be clear on your brand and how you want to show up consistently and let that guide your behavior. I appreciate that because I'm thinking about the leaders who are listening. So maybe the coaches, their leaders of their team, or the seniors, or the upperclassmen, or even I'm thinking about business leaders. And right now, it's so important that we lead, right, in a way that is resilient.

So I think just sitting down and thinking about what are the, what's my brand? What are the values that I want to lead with today? That can be really powerful. How might you encourage us to do that, Karen? Yeah. So, so, you know, that's what I would say. And I, and sometimes this is contextual, right? So, so for me, it's, you know, who is the consultant I want to be? There might be some descriptors there and really in this when I look at those three it's also who is the parent who is the mom I want to be right and so I think for each one come up with you know three to five descriptors for yourself that the second piece to it is you can give yourself a scorecard and it's just that gentle monitoring you know so for me if I look at grounded calm and and proactive one to ten you know one el

saco not very good and I'm I'm killing it um where would I be on those and and so it just gives me a simple check-in uh on calm and grounded I was at a three last Thursday and I had some different interesting conversations with people so I needed to check out this weekend. And I went up to the mountains with my family and got some recovery. And so it just helped me to really kind of get a sense of I'm in the thick of this right now and I need to regulate and make sure. So it just gives you that pattern. So that's what I'd say is, you know, answer the question, who is the mother consultant leader I want to be? Ident identify those descriptors and keep it pretty like tight to three to five and then and then give yourself a scorecard, you know, maybe weekly or

when you find yourself in a situation both where you felt you handled it well or where you didn't just to kind of see where you need to might focus some attention. And I'm guessing you'd probably also say like the scorecard, we don't want to beat ourselves up if we're at a three out of a 10 or one out of a 10, because I think it's so important that we have to have grace with ourselves right now. But it's more of like a check in, right? Totally. And thanks for highlighting that. It's really it's not it's monitoring. It's not it's not a test. It's monitoring. And it's it's all used as feedback. Yeah. It's all used, it's all used as feedback to just help you regulate and kind of take in what's going on

right now in the world. Yeah. So I think about how resilience and mental strength is so incredibly important right now to be able to adjust and adapt, like you said, and to keep ourselves on task. First of all, in your opinion, why is resilience essential right now that we work to develop it? Yeah. And so first of all, I think we look at the definition and there's a few schools of thought with resilience is one is that whole, we bounce back, right? Something bad happens to us, we bounce back, we develop skills. And that is to be true. But also looking at it is it's actually a proactive construct. And it's more around developing personal assets, developing skills and insight and awareness so that I'm ready to face what comes at me. So at Headversity, we define resilience as the readiness to face adversity.

And so it's developing those personal assets, those tools, that awareness, so that we can tolerate the stress. We can handle the challenges, and we can execute and be well, no matter what the circumstance. So I think it's equipping ourselves. There's a beautiful poem by Shanti Davis. And, and it really is talking about, you know, it's go something like, you know, if I could cover the earth with leather, then I'd be protected. But actually, if I just put leather

on the soles of my shoes, but if I train my mind, then I would be protected from all else, right? So it's training our mind. And that's a very bad. Anyway, look up Shanti Davis in this poem. But the basic premise is we can't control our external environment. But we can equip ourselves with the right protection and the right tools and strategies to help us navigate it and protect us from the ill effects of some of the things that are happening. So when you think about your top tool or strategy for us to be able to develop our resilience during this time, what would you say would be one of the top strategies you'd maybe teach people or teach the athletes you work with

or the business leaders? Yeah, and I just think to myself, you know, and, and, and for me to navigate, and I've been able to navigate many different situations. And I think this is just built into me from a kid, but from being a child, but is, is almost optimism or the opportunity mindset. And so, so I think as much as we need to acknowledge and validate our emotional experience, we also, for me, when I'm, when I'm trying to get through something, I'm like, okay, what can I learn from this? What good can come from this? What is good? Right? So I think part of the tools with that is that optimism. And so our amygdala, the place in the brain, that's going

to scan the world for threat and danger. It's going to be lit up because of all the uncertainty. We're going to have heightened anxiety. We balance that with scanning the world with what's good or what can come of this or what can I learn from this? I think that can kind of balance things. So that would be one thing, Sindra. I think mindfulness and for me, and I guess I put mindfulness as part of a also into a routine. So So for me, I have my daily morning practice, and needing that just to ground myself and connect and be able to regulate. I mean, the science is so rich on mindfulness, and especially for right now, in terms of regulating our emotional worlds, helping us focus and be attentive,

helping us to connect and really understand what's going on inside so that we can create a separation between reaction and response. So I think that would be the other one. And then all those great energy management strategies. So that exercise and moving, sleeping, making sure you're focusing on that, connecting virtually in this world that we're having this. I did a really cool webinar last Friday, Karen, where like 400 people were watching this webinar. And the thing that most people really appreciated was I gave them a list of like focused, improving questions. Like that's how I described it. Things to really help us kind of shift our mindset at this time. And it's like, what's the

opportunity here? What good can come from this? How can I grow through this? What's awesome about my family? What's great about my team? You know, and I think it's so easy to be focused on all the things that are going wrong or live in this fear and anxiety. But I appreciate what you said about just coming back to developing your optimism during this time or reminding yourself to take that lens. Absolutely. And once again, what a great training round, because this is where optimism and that opportunity mindset is going to be challenged the most, right? So if you can do it in this condition, it should likely be with you as you move forward. And I'm thinking about something you said earlier about athletes right now kind of struggling with motivation or focus. I read a study of CEOs a couple weeks ago where Todd Herman

asked CEOs, you know, how are you responding to the COVID-19? And one group was really unfocused. And I see that with athletes too, that it's hard to get focused right now with all the things that are changing. It's hard to stay motivated. What kind of advice would you give to people who maybe just are struggling in their work or kind of struggling with motivation, even if it's just getting back to an exercise routine? And yeah, I think that is the the thing the very first one is compassion of course you're struggling with motivation this is an uncertain world we don't know what's going to be happening and things have changed you don't know what you have control over and so for the athletes you don't really know you know we now know when the Olympic Games are but when are going to when's

going to be the competition and and so when do we need a peak for? And, and so there's no kind of the, you know, end point. And so I think first of all that, you know, give yourself a bit of a break. It's okay to be struggling with that. And then I think it's going back to, you know, kind of going back to what's your why and what this is all about for you in the first place. Right. So it's, it's grounding yourself in that. And so, you know, of course, Simon Sinek, the thought leader, and he kind of has two parts to it. So it's, it's in terms of the why it's like, what's the contribution I want to make and what impact will that have? So, so I think for our leaders, for myself, I had to do that because I had so much coming in and it just was feeling overwhelming. And so what's the contribution

I can make now, whether it's being a thought leader, whether it's helping people, whether it's developing, you know, imparting some knowledge and what impact will that have? So I think for our leaders and for our athletes is it's going back to what is this all really about, right? What's important to me? And for a lot of them, it's to be the best in the world or to be my best. And so then bringing it back to once again, setting a bit of structure and saying, okay, within these confines in the next two weeks, what are a few things I can do to work towards that purpose, right? So I think we got to dig a bit deeper in that and, and link some of our behaviors or, or, or kind of task ourselves with a few things. And if we're not doing it at the

same intensity, and if we're not doing it at the same vigor, then, you know, it's, it's using that once again, as feedback. I think the other thing that's going to help people and what I've noticed it with some of the athletes is, is community. And, you know, it's okay, well, we've got to go through this hard workout, one person is on on zoom on one side, and one is on the other. And we're individual, but we're together and doing these team workouts and and whatnot. So connecting each other and feeling the motivation or sorry, feeling the reinforcement that you're you're kind of moving a little bit there. Yeah. And I like what you said about just doing a few things after you've asked yourself, what's the contribution I want to make? What's the impact

that I want to have? And it's okay not to bite off this long list. You know, there was a managing director I was talking to yesterday, and I think he's like in super achiever mode just to kind of even cope with what's going on. And I said, you know, it's okay to take a step back and be with your family right now, you know? So it's interesting the ways that we're responding to this uncertainty and some people can maybe double down on their goals.

Well, and I think that's it. And that's going back to that opportunity. And it's like, okay, I'm a little bit demotivated, but there's gonna be a time that I'm gonna be in crunch time again and'm not going to be able to work from home and see my daughter for lunch and, you know, do all those different things. And so I think it is, it's, it's looking at, you know, what can I, what, what's most important to me right now? We have to contextualize this, right? Cause I think, I think for some people, um, given that,

that, that, that this whole thing COVID it's bigger than all of us, right? It's bigger than being an athlete or being a leader or my company or, you know, and, and, and it's this thing where we really have to band together. It's the first time that we all have to fly in formation globally, right. To, to manage it. And so, so it's, it's, what can I do? What's my part within that? And then looking at your other area, whether it be your business as an employee, as an athlete, and what's my main purpose in that? So I think there's kind of this dual function to people right now.

And there's almost guilt if I don't contribute to the greater good, but also guilt if I'm not completely committed to my other thing. And so to give yourself a bit of room to dance between that and just see what's most important to you in this moment, using that forecasting to make sure you're keeping accountable and on track for where you need to be in the long term. So what are the ways that you've been using your own strategies, Karen, during this time?

Yeah, great question. I think for me, I am on that opportunity mindset kind of person every stage and almost play it like a game. You know, it's kind of like, okay, world versus Karen, you know, and did I win today? And so it's what are the things I can do to kind of manage. So for me, the regularity and routine of having my exercise in the morning and having my mindfulness in the morning is a really big, really big piece of that. Focusing on what's in my control and setting actions and agendas towards that. And I think, you know, like that whole brand idea, I'm an emotional and passionate person. And when I'm switched on,

um, the, the, the communication can come across way more aggressive than I want it to. And so, so really trying to use that to, to manage how I'm coming across to others. And then lastly, um, what's good and, and this beautiful time we've been having with our family and, and, you know, my, my little one, she's, you know, seven years old and the time I'm getting to spend with her. And so really just soaking that in. Yeah, that's excellent. Is there a lesson that you've learned during this time, just the, you know, three or four weeks we've been in this time period, or maybe two or three, it seems like longer than maybe that. Doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, yeah. I know. I know. I think, I think it's that, you know, a few things is,

is number one that the need to tolerate uncertainty, right. It's kind of being comfortable with being uncomfortable and that little whisper of I have what I need to adjust or adapt to whatever comes. So, so just the acceptance and let the experience unfold versus trying to plan and control and all those kinds of things. So, so that would be one thing. I think, you know, the, the opportunity, the biggest lesson too, is just how important contributing to, to my community, but also my family is. And so, you know, the balancing and, and, and, and being connected with my family. And then really what matters, I think like you, the first question you asked is what

are you passionate about? And, you know, really having a business with Headversity that is a digital mental wellness platform, um, that measures and trains resilience. I mean, we couldn't be set up better to help people and we're a mission driven company. And so, you know, really, I think the lesson there is just because some days it's hard to have, you know, entrepreneurship and, you know, doing all these different things. But but this is really elevated the purpose and the and the mission in it. And when we're getting back the help we can we can impart on others, that's really

feeding me right now as well. So I think those are kind of the things that have been highlighted for me through this experience. And tell us a little bit about Headversity since we're talking about that. Tell us about your digital platform. What an amazing resource you have for people. So give us a little insight on that and where people can find more information about that, Karen. Yeah, so it's a digital mental wellness program built for now, so for today's workforce. And so really, you know, being that it's mobile, can go with you, it's micro, no lessons more than two minutes, and it's measurable, so that we have a resilience measure that we validated within there. And then so really, it's around, it's a training program

that can help build your resilience based on, you know, 20 years in the field, in addition to all the science and research that we've found. So if interested, if anyone's interested in that info at Headversity, you can head over there and we'd be happy to talk a little bit more about what we offer. And I think that's the great thing of how we've scheduled, we've structured everything. Everything's digital. So we can do a digital onboarding, we can webcast that. And it's all kind of in people's fingertips. And people need these skills more than ever. So it is like I think about having the opportunity mindset and optimistic mindset, like you said, this is a great opportunity for you to serve people. And I think we're seeing more and more why we need these mental skills of being able to be adaptable and flexible. That's right. And I think all of us, you know, even, Sindra, what you're doing and, you know, different initiatives, you're launching this podcast, and I see so many people in our profession coming together to do that. I think, you know, it's a real time for

our profession to rise and to be able to really help our communities because we have a skill set that that's so needed right now. Absolutely. You just gave me goosebumps. Well, thank you for all you're doing. I really admire and appreciate it. Appreciate you saying that, Karen. That means a lot. There's so many things that, and this interview was dynamite. I knew there was a reason I had you on that, Karen. That means a lot. There's so many things that, and this interview was dynamite. I knew there was a reason I had you on today. And so just so many useful things that people can use. I'm gonna summarize the things

that really stood out to me today. So like the idea of how you're conceptualizing those three phases, this acute crisis phase, the work through phase and aftermath phase, and how, man, we're maybe gonna be going back and forth through those phases as we adjust to the things that we can't control with COVID-19. I love the idea of just emotional agility in Susan David's work that you talked about, data versus director, how super powerful. And then what you said is like sitting with your full experience with curiosity right no judgment

but just like see it more as as how your emotions are just more data and uh they're just giving you information about what's important and then this idea of emotion-driven behavior versus brand-driven behavior you got us to think about how do we want to show up what's what's important to us what is the brand and just identifying three to five words to help kind of guide you through during this time. And I heard you say a couple of times, you know, can I adjust and adapt to whatever comes my way? And then at the end, we talked about these two questions, Simon Sinek questions, like what,

what's the contribution I want to make and what impact will I have to help us guide us through our motivation sometimes the new lack of focus during this time yeah a lot of a lot of a lot of stuff there right and look at the value just provided everybody amazing so there we go that's the way I see it is value value added added. So how can people reach out to you, Karen? Obviously, Headversity, you can check that out. But what are the other ways that people can reach out to you if they're interested? Yeah, for me personally, LinkedIn is probably your best way. And so it's Karen McNeil, M-A-C with two L's on the end there. So find me there.

I'm not awesome on Insta and Twitter, but, but my Instagram's Dr. Karen Mack, Dr. Karen Mack and the Twitter. I really don't use much, so I wouldn't even go there. So yeah, found me on LinkedIn. And then once again, headversity.com or info at headversity.com if you want to find a little bit more about our mobile platform for workplaces and sport. Love it. Is there any final comments or advice you would give

to those high performers who are listening today? I think, you know, and not advice, but I think just, you know, connect and understand where you're at. Kind of do a bit of a needs assessment, normalize that, but then make sure you take care of yourself. And then I think this is a real opportunity to build resilience, train your mind. And so double down on building those skills for yourself or using the ones that you already have. So I think that would be the biggest advice

is use this as an opportunity to train the mind, build your resilience. It's an awesome training ground and do what you can and do your part for the better good of all of us in this world. Awesome, Karen. So grateful for you to be on the podcast today. Thank you for bringing it here today. Thanks for having me, Sandra. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra.

That's D-R-I-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.