High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 34: Enjoyment as a Practice with Dr. Jonathan Fader – Sport Psychologist to the NY Mets

Episode Date: March 14, 2016

In this interview, Jonathan discusses several factors that separate successful pro athletes, leaders, and high achievers. He believes the practice of enjoyment is at the center of high performance. One suggestion he provides the pro athletes he works with is to ask: “What did I enjoyable the best about today?” within 60 seconds of finishing the game. He describes how the best have an optimal “mental climate” and how they keep their “fish tank clean.” The best of the best are also hungry for success, adopt a growth mindset, and remain process focused. You can preorder his new book, Life as Sport, on Amazon, and find more information about Dr. Fader on his website.

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff. And if this is the first time that you're joining us here on this podcast, I'd like to welcome you. If you're returning, thank you so much for coming back. I'm grateful that you're here ready to listen to an interview with Jonathan Fader. Now, Jonathan is a licensed clinical and sports

psychologist. He also lectures nationally on the topics of motivation and performance enhancement. He is the team psychologist for the New York Mets baseball team and is the co-founder of a practice in New York City called Union Square Practice. He has a book coming out on May 3rd. And this book is called Life as Sport, which you can pre-order on Amazon right now. And in this book, Life as Sport, he gives readers an inside guide to taking the principles and techniques of sport and performance psychology and helping you use them to achieve your full potential in your daily life. I think that after listening to this interview that you're going to go pre-order that book because he drops a ton of value bombs. What I love about this interview,

he doesn't hold back and he really provides a lot of value that can help us improve our performance in sport and in business, but also in our life. And he talks quite a bit about how performance psychology doesn't just apply to those big moments, but to every single thing that we do. And one of the things that's really unique about his work compared to others in sport and performance psychology is his emphasis on keeping joy and enjoyment and gratitude as the center of performance. And I can see and just sense throughout this interview that Joy is really the center of his work within performance psychology. So talk quite a bit about finding your intrinsic motivation or your why and how the best of the best

are very hungry for what they want. Listen to that really closely. He talks about how to incorporate that as part of your routine. And our conversation about growth mindset is very good in terms of how can we choose a growth mindset. He also has a unique concept that I haven't heard anyone else talk about in performance and sports psychology, and that is your mental climate. He uses a fish tank analogy that is so spot on. And he talks about how the best of the best clean their fish tank regularly. And what he means by that in terms of mental climate is really about how you think.

Your actions like your deep breath. Are you careful with the assumptions that you make and that you think about in terms of your cognitive appraisal? Are you able to stay present in the moment which we talk about a lot? Do you know your why and do you understand your why and do you keep that as part of your routine? And one of the quotes that I really enjoy that he talked about is he said, you know, the quickest path for you to get success is to focus on what you can control. Again, tons of value bombs throughout this interview. At the end, he talks about how performance psychology is a part of every single thing that he does.

And I'd encourage you to think about how can it be a part of what you do more often. We would love to hear from you. What stood out to you about this interview? You can send a tweet to myself at mentally underscore strong and Dr. Fader at Dr. Fader, that's F-A-D-E-R on Twitter. Or you could always send me an email at syndra at syndracampoff.com. I'll make sure to forward it to Jonathan. So without further ado, let's bring

on Jonathan Fader. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Cindra Campoff. And today I am delighted to provide you an interview with Jonathan Fader. So Jonathan, can you give us a little insight into your passion and what you do? I, you know, I'd love to. And, love to. Part of my passion is actually talking to you. What I mean by that is that I think that for my career, I've really followed what I enjoy doing and what I feel like are things based on improving people's functioning and relationships. What makes me passionate is really following my joy. And my joy has been in my career to really help people find their strengths. You know,

that sort of started, as I can tell you about it, in clinical psychology and developed into my interest in sports and performance psychology. Excellent. So tell us just kind of briefly how you got to where you are in New York City and your private practice. Kind of tell us about your journey to get there. Well, you know, I grew up interested in sports and performance. And actually, you know, I went to a performing arts high school. I went to the FAME High School in New York City. And from a very early age, I was really interested in what makes a performer, whether they're a performing artist, whether they're a sports performer. And I became very interested in the psychology of that. And as I went through school and as I began to think,

what am I going to do in life? You know, I actually went to a school that was focused on clinical psychology, but there was exposure to people like Ron Smith, who was one of the professors there, who was a big academic sports psychologist. And I realized, hey, wait a second, there's a way that I can combine my interest in psychology with this interest in performance. And what makes people their best? And how do we look towards science-based skills that can say, hey, wait a second, you know, if you practice these skills, you can both enjoy life more and actually be at your best. You know, tell us a little bit about your practice in New York City. Who do you typically work with and who are your clients? You know, I work with anyone that is really believes that there are things they can do to be a better human. And what I mean by that is, you know, I certainly primarily in New York City work with elite athletes and elite performers. So

that means, you know, people who play baseball, who play football, mostly hockey and basketball. But also, I work with people who are performers from other areas. In my view, everything is a performance. I don't mean that in the sense that we're not being authentic. I mean that in the sense that everything we do can be optimized. And it can be optimized in the sense that we can do it better, and it can be optimized in the sense that we can enjoy it more. And so in my work with actors and performing artists as well, my practice is composed with lots of people who have the primary belief that, A, you know, it's not about fixing a problem.

It's about saying, you know, how can I look at my response to adversity and stress? How can I look at what I do in my day-to-day, whether I'm a business person, whether I'm a teacher, whether I'm a mom, a dad, and how can I do it better? And so most of my practice is about, it's filled with people who are doing pretty well in life, but say, you know what? I'm really interested in taking this gift that I have, this next however many years it is, and being fully present and doing it at my best and using what we know from science is going to help are the techniques and the ways of being that are going to help me to do that. Jonathan, I have a similar philosophy to you in terms of just that everything is a performance. And I like what

you're describing that it's not about fixing a problem, but optimizing it. And I, you know, in terms of being fully present, that's so important because we can just kind of go through life and our performance and be distracted or not really fully be in it. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, and, Sindra, you know, what's great about that is as you're saying it, I think about it. And, you know, one of the things that's led me to really commit to performance psychology is the fact that I, as a human, know what it's like to be distracted, and I know what it's like to not be at my best. And the same ways of being and the same techniques and the same focus on the process has helped me to be less distracted and to be more present in my life and to enjoy the work that I do. Can you give us a few examples of things that you do to

stay in the present moment or be kind of at your best, which you're kind of describing as this optimal state? Yeah, yes, you know, well, first, I would say this is that, you know, there's a quote I always think about with regarding being your best, which is by this philosopher Suzuki, who says, you know, in the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities, and in the expert's mind, there are few. In the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind, there are only few. And so I think about that quote a lot. And it's really helped me because, you know, certainly, you know, people like you and me who've spent our lives really studying this stuff, you know, you're a and me who've spent our lives really studying this stuff.

You know, you're a person, I'm a person with a lot of expertise in performance psychology. And I think, you know, sometimes we forget that we can keep learning. And I guess what really makes me passionate and helps me to and learning about and being open to new things about how to get better to help me ground myself. So it's sort of a guiding philosophy to me is to say, you know what, I can learn and I can always learn. And there isn't anyone who can't teach me something about myself or about the world. And I don't care if that's, you know, someone who has zero education or someone who's, you know, got an MD and a PhD and whatever other letters we like to put on our names. I believe that, you know, the quest for learning and being really open

and having, you know, a beginner's mind is something that is a guiding thing that I'm passionate about. And so that's led me to pursue certain study and certain practices that have, I think, helped me to engage with those learning moments. And I think the two things that have helped me in learning are, one, the idea of what it means to really be present in the moment, as you said, and what are the things that are going to help me to stay present in the moment. So there are certainly techniques that have helped me to do that. And the other thing that I talk a lot about and that I find that high performers are able to do well is not only to stay present, but to find enjoyment. That, you know, being

present in the moment is much more about, I think, self-acceptance and about what we call mindfulness, about allowing the present moment to exist with non-judgment. But I also think that enjoyment can be practiced. And I think, you know, when I'm working with athletes that are in a slump or I'm working with people that have had not such great results in business and other areas, that for sure, you know, the practice of enjoyment, even of adversity, is tremendous and tremendously powerful in terms of changing the course of your experience. You know, Jonathan, one thing I was just thinking about in terms of what you're talking about is continual learning. I think about, sometimes I follow Brennan Burchard on Facebook, and he defines an expert as somebody who is always continually learning. So I like how you said, you know, like, what really, you know, you're using this term expert, but that it really means to me, to you that you're continually learning and improving

yourself. I love that, Cintra. I love that. And I'm going to have to look more carefully at the stuff that he puts out because I think that sums it up a lot. One of the things I did early in my career is I did a lot of training on cultural competency. So I'd go in and teach people in different areas, doctors, lawyers, whoever, about what it means to be culturally competent. And they would almost walk out of the room because the first thing I said is, like, let me just tell you something. Being culturally competent means realizing that you'll never be culturally competent. The idea is really that I think you're right. Being an expert is realizing that, hey, it's about the quest for self-knowledge

and expertise that makes you expert. And once you think you're an expert, wow, you know, I mean, you're really going to miss out. So I don't think of myself in that way. I think of myself as an expert at committing to learning. And certainly I have a ton of expertise, and I know from reading the stuff and listening to your podcast that you have a ton of expertise. But I think, you know, one of the things that we share is a quest for knowledge, and I think that's really what makes someone an expert. So I totally agree with that.

Absolutely. So Jonathan, you've had a really incredible opportunity to work with some of the nation's best. So what do you think separates those from who are really, really, you know, great at their craft and who are at the top compared to those that aren't or don't make it there? Wow. I mean, I think there's so many factors. But if I had to point to a few essential factors, I think one of them relates to what we've just been talking about, you know, that the best are hungry. They are absolutely hungry for, you know, the best really don't,

they don't care if it's, you know, if you show them science that, hey, you know, what's going to help you is to really make a broccoli puree and wash your face with it, they're going to find a way to do that. And so sometimes there's some writers who talk about this as the rage to master. There's this idea that there's this internal desire that people who are going to be the best have that shows up in early childhood, this need to really optimize. So I think that that is a quality that people have. And my philosophy is that can be learned, that if you align yourself in the right way, meaning you really figure out why you're doing something, for example. You figure out your internal intrinsic value that's leading to it.

That rage to master can be lit on fire. You can feel it more presently. There are certainly, I think, top performers, as you say, that I've worked with, a lot of them are kind of born with that, or they come from an environment where that's been fostered. But I believe everybody, everybody who's listening to this podcast, can enhance that about themselves. I think the other quality that

elite performers have and also can be optimized is, you know, what is commonly referred to in the literature as a growth mindset. And, you know, the idea that basically they're going to look at adversity differently than the average person. They're not going to go to a place, when they have a choice, when there's a stressful situation, and we all have these stressful situations, whether they're paying our taxes, parenting, a business decision, or it's facing a hundred mile an hour fastball. Do you have a stressful situation? And so you have a choice. Do you look at that situation as a threat, or do you look at it as something that's more of an opportunity or a challenge?

And that in my experience, elite athletes generally choose and are and are predisposed to look at those situations as challenges. I'm going to I'm going to do this. I can. I'm going to. And I and by the way, I'm going to learn to enjoy it. I'm give me that. Give me that fastball. Come on. I'm going to. And by the way, I'm going to learn to enjoy it. Give me that. Give me that fastball. Come on. I want to feel that challenge rather than, geez, I don't know if I want to get close. I'm going to avoid that because that scares me. And I think for the most part, and philosophers and scientists are going to argue this for the next thousand years, whether that's born or that's something that's developed. If you ask me, I think it's a combination. But the thing that we control is the development part.

You know, we don't, at least until now, we don't control the genetics. That's changing. But, you know, I think for the most part, what we day-to-day in the year 2016 control is how we develop that. And I believe, obviously, that that can be developed. And I believe that, you know, in performance psychology, we have some of the best methods, but also philosophies to develop that in people, whether you're an elite athlete or you're an elite person. You know, one of the things I like what you said, Jonathan, is that it's a choice. So you choose to see it as an opportunity instead of a threat. Love that.

Yeah. And I think, you know, Sindra, just as you're saying that, it's making me think that, you know, I guess what I believe too is that choice can be practiced. Because what does it mean? You're sitting there, you're facing 100 mile an hour fastball, you're sitting there, you're facing this business decision. You know, I guess the question is for most people and for me as well, what are the things I can do to create a performance state that's going to allow me, support me to make that choice to choose a challenge? And a lot of times I think that, you know, for day-to-day living and for elite performance, it's creating the correct mental climate to be able to make that choice. Because, you know, I'll just speak for myself.

If I'm in a very stressful situation, if I don't have, I'll give you a specific example. You know, I'm doing some work with firefighters. And one of the things I recently did is I actually went on a drill into a burning building with oxygen and everything. And it was a funny situation because they were telling me, you know, okay, here's what you're going to do, Fader. You're going to do this, that, and they were giving me instructions, right? And I'm listening and I'm, I'm cognitively,

I'm hearing what they're saying and I'm cataloging it, Cendra. I'm like, okay, this is what I'll do. Then fire truck, you know, arrives at the, at the drill scene. They cut the gate. We go into the, the burning building. It's a burning building. It's full of smoke. I'm sucking on oxygen. And all of a sudden I can't even remember what my name is. I forget about the instructions, right? I don't remember what my name is, right? And so we're all familiar with that as just an arousal response. And elite athletes experience it and people experience it in stressful situations. But what I was able to do was I was able to remember all the training and work I've done over the past 15 years and say, wait a second, your mental climate isn't aligned here. So I instantly had a routine that I lock into,

which involves some of the traditional techniques, arousal control, the way I was breathing, my cognitive appraisal, how I'm talking to myself. And I was able to do that quickly, because I don't have a lot of time. I have my hand on a guy's oxygen tank in front of me. I'm walking into this completely zero visibility setting. So I think I could choose threat there or challenge, but it's not so much. I think the choice is connected to what your mental climate is. And so if you're working on having a mental climate that's healthy and you're working on having a way to prepare for adversity, not just let's see what happens.

Hey, I hope this goes well. Hey, you know what? I hope that test goes well for you. I hope that meeting goes well for you. Rather than saying, I'm not hoping, I'm working towards preparing myself that it will go well. Well, that's going to be helpful for me as some guy who's definitely not who you want fighting the fire. And that's going to go well for, you know, a major league baseball

player, a hockey player, a football player, or, you know, a man or a woman who's walking into a sales call or a business meeting in which it feels like there's a fire because a lot's on the line. What a great story, Jonathan. Can you tell us how you define mental climate? How would you describe that to a client who's maybe unsure? Yeah, you know, I mean, I think one of the ways I talk about mental climate is, you know, I'm a fish tank. I'm terrible at maintaining fish tanks, right? I'm sorry to say in my childhood and even with my kids, I've ruined fish lives like many, many times. And the reason is because, you know, if you have a freshwater fish tank, just say like a beta or a goldfish, it's pretty simple, right? You just change the water and you put in a few worms

and you're pretty good, right? That's something that even I can handle. But let's say you have a saltwater tank. And a saltwater tank is much more complex, right? You got to put in pH balancing things and all kinds of chemicals and you have to put in the right species of fish. Well, that's, I think, more what developing a mental climate is like. It's not just, hey, you put water in it and it's fine. A mental climate is you're really optimizing a lot of different factors about the way you experience life. And so I find that sometimes what we do is we just say, hey, you know what, I'm just going to have a croissant and a coffee and roll into work and see what happens. Well, that sometimes can work, right? But if you really are

saying, I want to be the best, it's really evolving and saying like, okay, how do I manage the pH of my brain? What food do I add? And by food, I'm not just saying, I'm not talking literally here, obviously. I'm talking about how I think, how I breathe, you know, being very careful about what assumptions I'm making about my experience. It may be developing a kind of way of being in contact with the moment. It might be, you know, the way that you actually focus on understanding

why you're doing things and making that motivation more clear to yourself throughout the day. So these are things about managing your own fish tank in your brain. And I think most people do it. And probably people listening to your podcast do it pretty well. But I'll say the fish tank can always be cleaner and the fish tank can always be better optimized. Right. And the fish can always live longer depending on what you're doing. So I think that's the way I think about mental climate is what am I doing day to day to keep the water clean and to, you know, create the best life for the fish of my experience and the people who's who I work with in optimizing their life, their experience. What a great analogy. And I can hear what you're saying in terms of what the best of the best do is they keep their fish tank very, very clean.

Oh, my God. Let me tell you, you know, the best of the best, they're in there every day, right? And they are vigilant. You know, they have those kind of cleaners with the magnets so you can clean it in the outside. And, you know, they're really, if a new species comes along, they're looking very carefully at that new species. You know, the best of the best, they don't have conversations with negative people. The best of the best, if someone is really negative and they're, you know, you can see in a locker room that the best of the best, they veer away from things that are going to get, that are going to pollute their mental

climate. And if they don't, which sometimes they don't, it can be really destructive. So I think really thinking about, you know, who is around you and how, and being around people that inspire you. And that's almost, I mean, in some ways, that's the most important thing, even more than having a performance coach. I think one of the most important things is making sure that the people that are directly around you are people that bring out your best and that when you're with them,

you feel great and you feel motivated to compete. Jonathan, we've been talking quite a bit about what the best of the best do. So what do you see some of your clients struggle with, even though they're the best, they might have some struggles kind of mentally, what do you see them kind of struggling with in general? Well, it comes back to the range to master idea. So I think one of the downsides of the range to master is, you know, this is why you see athletes on a professional stage, you know, the best of the best curse, kick the dirt, throw things, sometimes get into, you know, battles with inanimate objects. You know, the best of the

best have such a passion that when things don't go right, it's very, very frustrating. Now you and me, you know, we miss a shot in a basketball game. I'm not maybe I'll talk about me. You're probably a better athlete. But like, you know, my sports of choice usually are surfing and snowboarding. And if I miss a wave, I'm like, ah, all right, sorry, there's another wave coming. Because it's not, fundamentally, my self-esteem is about helping other people be the best. Like, that's what gives me my sense of, like, joy and my sense of, hey, I'm doing a great job here. But as an athlete, you know, what I think the biggest struggle is, what do you do with not ideal results? And so, and what most, a lot of athletes, even professional athletes, don't work on and don't realize is taking in a kind of process focus.

Meaning, you know, I think the biggest challenge for being a person is that we get tied into the outcome. You know, we're so focused on what's going to happen. How much money are we going to make? Am I going to catch this wave? Am I going to, is this man or woman going to say yes when I swipe the right way on this online platform? You know, what's going to happen? What's the result here? And I think that comes, it's understandable because it comes out of a place of immense pressure, internal pressure to be your best. So I think one of the things that, you know, I work on most with elite athletes and performers is helping them to take the focus off of the actual results, realizing that we have little control over that and directing the attention more to the two things that we control, which are basically, in the most simple form, what you do and what you think. We can get very complex about it, but really, primarily, you know, what an elite performer or any of us can do is say in any one moment, okay, this sucks, but how can I get my

bandwidth back to the two things that are in my control, my actions and my reactions? And so that's a lot about what I do with people is the shortest time, the quickest path to your success is the shortest time back to the thing you control. Say that one more time for everybody that's listening. The quickest path to your success is the shortest path back to the things you can control. So oftentimes, you know, when we're working in competition, you know, something happens we don't like. Let's say I'm on this podcast and all of a sudden I lose my chain of thought.

Now, me getting wrapped up in that is what's going to take me down a path that's actually not going to be productive. So I need to have already a way that I can focus my energy back on the things I can control, which are what I do and what I think. Now, if I think, oh my God, what am I saying? I'm totally lost here. I'm going to go down a rabbit's hole. That's not going to be helpful for me to feel at my best, feel that confidence, choose challenge rather than strength. Or if I, you know, if I'm not breathing correctly or if I'm actually not even focused on the things I'm doing, one of the things that's helpful for me is focusing on actually the sound of your voice. Sometimes I'm doing an interview with someone and the sound of their voice doesn't sound open and engaging, and that's going to affect the way that I have to

reach deeper into myself to come up with information. A lot of what's happening here is that your questions are both excellent, but you're also you sound interested in what you're talking about. So I'm actually using I'm really focused on that because it's helping me to be engaged in the moment. So, in other words, you know what I can control are not I can't control you. I can't control the outcome of this interview, I can control me. And so I think going back to your original question, Sindra, which is a great one, is I think the biggest challenge comes out of a good place. The biggest challenge is that people want to be their best,

and sometimes they get so frustrated when the results don't match up with what's in their head about what they know that they can do. So having a plan for how you're going to deal with that before it comes, because we're all going to have results we don't like. You know, you're going to do, well, personally, I mean, from the podcast I've heard, I haven't heard negative results, but one day you're going to do a podcast and you're going to be like, ah, so it's how do you come back from that? And how do you respond to that in an adaptive way? And I think that that's fundamentally, even at the elite level, what a lot of athletes could do more work on,

is really having a process focus. And I'll say that coming from myself, I work on that every day. I work on having a process focus and to try to use the techniques I know that help me stay in the moment. Yeah. And my guess is you use that a lot when you're writing your book, because you can get so focused on the outcome, and then it's like, what do I got to do today to get this book done and to get it to the publisher? 100%. Yeah, it's interesting because I think that the book idea is a perfect model

for how to do this. So you have a project like my book. Now, my book came out of a place of real passion, which is to look at transferable skills. I'm really interested in how sport and performance psychology apply to every man and woman. How do we use this in our day-to-day life to both have a sense of mastery? Sure, I'm interested in mastery, but I'm also really interested in enjoyment. Because at the end of the day, you can have mastery without enjoyment and then what you have, right? So I'm interested in mastery, yeah, in mastering our skills, but I'm also

really interested in enjoyment. And so in writing the book, it was sort of like on a meta level, that's what I tried to do. It really helped me to say, well, what is it about this that I enjoy? And why am I doing this? And how can I increase my enjoyment? So for example, in the book, I found that one of the things that helped me really connect to the material was to interview people like you're doing. That's one of the things I really liked. It kept me very connected to it. So if I'm writing about, which some people want to read about, the science behind visualization, which can be sometimes a little dry to look through that stuff. But if I'm actually talking to an elite actor or elite performer about how they visualize, I think it could be, it helped me

to stay connected to it. So yeah, absolutely. You know, when you're trying to get through, you know, writing actually 200 pages or 60,000 words, you know, being able to stay connected to what I like about it was super, super helpful for me because, you know, we all have problems with these goals that are outcome-based and that are so far away. And most of the time when people come in to work with me and sit in my practice, they have these outcome goals that are very separated from what their passion is. So the first step is to connect their outcome goal to the passion. Jonathan, you have provided so many mindset topics you've been talking about so far,

having joy in your life and using, you know, just using strategies to increase your joy. We've talked about a process-focused growth mindset. We've talked about focusing on what you can control, which is really your thoughts and your actions. We've talked about hunger. Is there anything else that is always a conversation that you have with your clients in terms of is there a topic or concept? Yeah, I mean, I think that we've talked about them a little bit, but I guess just to drill down a little bit more, I guess what I'd say is people often make the mistake that enjoyment has to be about their specific task. So let's say I'm a baseball player. It has to be about enjoying the at-bat.

But enjoyment, I think, is anything in your life that adds joy. And the reason to do it that I talk about with my clients, whether they're an athlete, an elite athlete or a performer, is that it builds up this bank for you. So the more that you're enjoying things, it kind of protects you. You can think about it as sort of like you're, you know, hopefully you have like a month of savings there in case things go wrong. Well, if you're enjoying things, let's say I'm a baseball player and I hit a slump. If I've been like really excited for my teammates and I'm a veteran and I'm helping people and I've seen this happen, you know, helping people who are junior to me, I'm going to interact with that slump in a little bit of a different way. And so enjoyment is really about, yes,

finding the joys of looking at things as a challenge, but enjoyment is everything you're doing day to day. What I work on, you know, many people are surprised, but when I work with an elite athlete, I want to know what joys they have in life, apart from their skill set. You know, like before we drill down and actually come up with a customized visualization exercise or we talk about a mantra or a self-statement or a growth mindset or any of these things that we talk about

or mindfulness, I do a lot of meditation and mindfulness. Before we do any of that, I really want to understand what are their joys in life. And because my experience has been, if there aren't joys outside of their work, it's really hard to get traction. If someone is just so focused on the performance aspect, that they're not enjoying the rest of their life, I find it's really hard to help them move along. And oftentimes, elite performers lose some of the joys.

And what I've heard from baseball players and hockey players and basketball players is people really have to have a deep enjoyment to sustain the play at a high level. And for those veterans that I've talked to who've been in sports for 10, 15 years and have managed to do it, it's really an in-depth practice of joy. So does that mean that you're going to think about how to be a leader in the clubhouse or in the locker room and how you do that, either silently or actively? Does that mean that you're going to be a practical joker? Does that mean, which, you know, I am notoriously known for being, does that, does that mean that you're, and also being the victim of terrible jokes, but does

that mean that, you know, does that mean that you're going to take a minute after every game and really 60 seconds? I'm talking about 60 seconds. I'm not talking about three minutes. I believe everything that's worth doing, you should be able to write it down on one piece of paper because you're not going to remember it. And my work with firefighters, they always say, I'm not thinking through 10 steps there if I have a ball of flame behind me. So, I'm talking about 30 to 60 seconds to say to yourself just this, what did I enjoy the most about that? Whatever that is, your performance call, your evaluation from your boss, you know, all the things in life that we might dread. What do I enjoy about that? What did I enjoy the most about that?

There's so much science and opinion that I think is correct about that idea of enjoyment slash kind of gratitude that I think changes the way in which you perform. And so I really go in depth in have the opportunity to be here on vacation. Because saying to your kids, you should be, look, my mom walked 10 miles to school. You know, they're like, oh, my God, let me cover my ears. You know, but if you say, hey, you know what, I feel really lucky that we can go to the beach today. Like, look at this. There's much more of a chance that they're going to model that and learn that from you. And so I think similarly with athletes, the more that you can model that in your work with them

and also that you can help them to say, well, what did I actually enjoy? What was fun? And by the way, enjoyment could be, you know, knocking the glove off some guy's hand. You know, I mean, it doesn't have to be this sense of like, you know, enjoyment can be a fierce competition, but it's about really taking the focus away from your, how many points you scored and your ERA or how many, you know, how many yards you ran past completion and just say, well, what did I enjoy?

Or how much, what's our P&L? How much money did we make this month? What was the thing that made me feel alive and made me feel connected to people and myself? And Jonathan, what I'm hearing is this practice of enjoyment, which I like the way you're describing it, helps you focus on the process. 100%. So you're not so focused on the outcome and the results. That's so smart. Yeah, so smart because, you know, you can't – that's so smart, Sindra, because it's so hard to say to an elite performer, just focus on the process.

I mean, they're like, yeah, if I could do that, like, I wouldn't need you. It's the same zone. Yeah, so, yeah, you need a routine that helps you to do that. And so, exactly. So if I'm asking myself, well, what did I enjoy? It helps me to be grounded in the process and not, you know, be so affected by the ups and downs that we all have in terms of our results. So Jonathan, can you tell us about a signature technique that you use with your clients? Maybe one of these topics we've talked about, or maybe there's, you know,

something else that you think would be helpful for those listening yeah I think there are a few signature techniques that I do I think that one of the things I do is I'm a big believer in honing intrinsic motivation meaning helping people to identify what it is exactly that creates a passion for them to improve and to enjoy things. And I think my experience has been in doing a lot of training about the science of motivation and working with others to develop it and leaders and businesses and elite performers is that a lot of people haven't clarified their real reason. Sometimes I know I've seen you refer to it,

which I really like, as the why. And that's a way that I really like to describe it as well. And I think that is huge. So I guess one of the focus of what I do with a lot of performers is to develop methods. One of the things we do, for example, is a value card sort. So I help people to look through certain values and to clarify at the most basic level why they're doing what they're doing. So let me give you an example of that. And it's also a transferable skills example. I just did a talk for a bunch of successful novelists about writing. These folks wanted to know what's the top, what's the science about how do I stay motivated to write? Because as we all know, writers have this thing.

They talk about it as block. I don't even like really thinking about that because that's a focus on the problem where I'm really trying to focus on the solution. So, but, you know, what's really interesting is that a lot of these writers, if you ask them, you know, what motivates you? They might say something like, well, to show people I'm going to be the best. And this is what elite athletes say to me all the time.

If you ask a guy, hey, why do you want to get to the NBA? They'll say, I don't know. It's always been my dream. That really doesn't clarify for the person and for me as a performance coach, like, what does that actually mean? We're trying to take, we're trying, if you think of it, it's like when people's motivation is like a piece of coal, and you're trying to help them get to the diamond. Like, what's really the power and why they want to do that? So I guess as far as a technique or a conversation that I have at the deepest level,

and using motivational enhancement techniques is to say, let's have a deeper conversation and use some strategies that we know work to identify why you really want to do this. And that that power of that wire, that intrinsic internal motivation is going to help us. It's like the gas in the car. I think that, you know, performance psychology is like a Lamborghini. Like we have some great techniques, right? We have mindfulness. We have visualization. We have self-talk. We have goal setting. We have routines.

We have all these things that we like to do. But if we don't really know why we're doing it, if we're not sure about what this is about and why are we pushed towards doing this, it kind of falls flat. So my first step with people is to really figure out and tying it into enjoyment. But why are we doing this? Why are you here? And I don't take superficial, you know, answers. If someone says, well, I just want to be the best, I don't even know what that means. Like, why do you want to be the best?

And what are the values that are connecting to it? Is it stability? Is it mastery? Is it achievement? Is it relationships? And if it is relationships, why? Oh, I want to show my son, but why do you want to do that? So getting to the bottom of what powers people and then helping them

to move that into a routine so that the motivation becomes part of their cognitive appraisal. It becomes part of their mental climate, as we talked about before. Their motivation is one of the ingredients in that mental climate that we talked about that helps to keep the fish tank clean. If you really know why you're doing something, it helps with adverse situations. So it would be part of the routine, maybe before you go out and play, you're reminding yourself of why you do what you do and this really deep internal desire. Exactly. Yeah. So I'll give you a personal example. One of the things that's most important to me is I have a real sense of the gift that I have of being alive. I really feel like it's a total opportunity. And I feel so grateful for that. I feel so grateful for this moment to talk to you.

And sometimes when, you know, I get caught up because, you know, my kid has a meltdown or, you know, whatever team I'm working with that has not a good result, I might get detoured a little bit from that and get frustrated. And so on my phone, I have a keyword there. It just says moment, right? And it's a keyword to me to remind myself of some of the connectivity to my motivation. What motivates me is the sense of that I really feel that being present and being present in relationships is sort of part of the meaning of why I'm here. And so that helps me to cue me. So I think, you know, connecting it to a routine or to some self-talk or something that messages you about where your focus can be can really help people to get back on track.

You know, in order for something to gel, I think it has to be a habit. And so anything you can do to assist the habit is going to assist you to do it with more adherence and regularity and enjoyment. Jonathan, I love what you said about you kind of just describe your why and you think that part of your why is to be present and to practice being in the present moment for relationships. Tell us more about your why and that desire. Well, I think when we think about flow, which is a topic that we talk a lot about in performance, one of the ways to describe that is where your ability meets the challenge, where you're really fully immersed in the moment. And I find that to be the most gratifying experience, where I'm really saying, A, I'm good

at what I do. And B, this is pushing me to the limits of what I can do. And I feel that I've let go of myself, that I'm not really tied up in who I am or what I need to prove or what I need to show people, but I'm just here. And I think that that is one of the most enlightened places to be. And so for me, I'm most that way in my life when I'm interacting with someone else and we're working together to better a situation or better themselves. And that I really think that there's a certain enjoyment to the generosity of that experience that helps me to remind myself of why I'm here. And when I'm working with people, especially when I'm working with people that I can see the direct effect. So, for example, working with firefighters, right,

where I see that the gift of that relationship, the gift of that training could actually affect people in a real-world way. Or when we work with elite athletes and I know that their behavior is something that a thousand girls and boys will model. I have a direct sense that when they change that for the better and they are a more present, generous person enjoying life, that that actually is going to affect the way that thousands of kids act because of the way that they live their lives. So that's a passion I have. And I think that we all contribute in small ways and in the very, very, very, very small ways that I can help an athlete regulate and create a mental climate that's really adaptive and is based on kindness and presence and enjoyment, I do think that that's going to affect the world because we know that the high performers out there are setting the model for how people should behave and who we should look up to.

So the more that they are incorporating some of the aspects of high performance should behave and who we should look up to. So the more that they are incorporating some of the aspects of high performance and enjoyment and present moment, the more we can give that gift back to people who don't have the means or the reach that the people we work with have. Jonathan, can you take us to an aha moment that you've had in your career and how it can help us learn something? I think, you know, the instant thing that pops to my mind about that early in my mind about that, early in my career as a performance psychologist and working with elite athletes, you know, my focus was so much on the results.

It was so much on, like, how can I help this team win? How can I show people what I know, that performance psychology can help them? I'm going to convince them that this can help them. And I think early in my career, I was not practicing what I preach, meaning I was really focused on convincing others. Most of the time, it's about trust and about care and kindness first in anything that we do. And if you look at the world's leaders, like the people that we really respect about leadership, that's what they

do. They're kind, they're authentic first. And then they say, okay, what's the goal here? And so that really helped me. That was an aha moment for me because it kind of awakened in me something I really already knew, which is that kindness. Another quote I think that summarizes this well, I'll just share with you. If you have the choice between being kind and being right, always choose being kind because if you're kind, you're always right. And so I think that starting from a place of kindness, that was the aha moment there. And that taking my time and just realizing that that relationship is more important than any knowledge or technique or wisdom I could bestow on the person. It's really about seeing athletes and high performers as humans first, and then a high performer. And what I hear you talking about, Jonathan, is that it allowed you to kind of get back to focusing on the process, right?

The relationships instead of the outcome, which is the result. So it kind of takes us full swing in terms of the interview today. A hundred percent. And I think, you know, what you've pointed out in our dialogue, which I think is really important, are two of the things that we talked about. One is, you know, enjoyment. The other one is, you know, kindness and relationship building. That one of the ways for all of us in our relationships and our practice

and day-to-day to really become part of the moment is to focus on those two things, to focus on enjoyment, what do I enjoy, and focus on building a relationship first in whatever we do. Luckily, you know, in performance psychology, there are many things that can assist you with both of those goals. You know, and I'm thinking about the people who listen to the podcast, that's so applicable to business leaders to develop relationships and be kind to coaches, to athletes, to consultants and performance coaches and sports psychologists. So a lot of applicability to what you're talking about. Well, I'm glad that's the idea. So I'm really happy that hopefully it'll reach a lot of people in that way. Absolutely. So Jonathan, tell us which of the top 10 traits of high performers do you think that you exhibit the most? Yeah, well, I love the ideas in there.

And I think, Sindra, you're onto a lot. I think you synthesize in some of those concepts, really what's the heart of some of performance psychology here. And I guess, you know, for me personally, and for people that I, that I work with, I think there's a combination of kind of the idea of being comfortable with uncomfortability, but also a combination of that. And what you talk about is as self-compassionate. It's kind of, I think a hybrid between those two things. And what I mean by that is what makes people comfortable being uncomfortable? Largely, that's about self-appraisal for the most part, right?

Because what happens is you get uncomfortable and all of a sudden you're messaging yourself stuff. And that stuff could be like, whoa, I'm not ready for this. Or wait, I don't know what's happening here. Or am I in danger? And by the way, we talk about self-talk. That term actually doesn't really, I think, approximate what's happening because oftentimes it's kind of non, they're not even words. They're just a mix of kind of feelings, is that the ability to let go of a negative way of talking about yourself and embrace and work towards an adaptive. I don't usually use the word positive

because I don't think it always has to be positive. It just has to be adaptive. It has to work. And so moving towards a growth idea about how I'm going to talk to myself, and not in a kind of BSE way, in a very concrete way that really says something like, I've been trained for this. I've been prepared for this.

If not me, then who? If not me, then who's going to do this? So it doesn't necessarily say, I don't think that it's about saying, I'm going to kill it. That's really a dangerous way of self-talk. It's really just about adaptive and realistic ways of talking to yourself and thinking about high-performance moments that allow you to be more comfortable. I wouldn't say comfortable. I'd say more comfortable in uncomfortable environments and more self-compassionate, meaning to say it's okay. Okay, I'm feeling like an imposter now. I'm feeling threatened by that.

That's all right. That's all right. Like that's part of it. It's staying away from the dangerous kinds of appraisals that say I'm in danger here, which is very natural in being human. We're naturally predisposed to do that. But saying that that's a practicable skill, as you say, you know, being comfortable, being uncomfortable is something you can practice. You're born with

a certain ability to do that, but then you can practice just like you can do curls at the gym or like you, I know, run insane amounts of miles. You know, you can practice, you can get better. So which of those top 10 traits, Jonathan, do you think that you're still working on? And the reason I ask that is just to kind of emphasize that everybody's a work in progress and, you know, you should be doing it better. I absolutely, you know, when you're talking about working on my own grit, having a clear purpose, I've improved my sense of purpose on this phone call. Like in our interview today, in our discussion, you know, I really feel like this conversation has helped me to clarify even at a deeper level what the purpose is of my

work. So I think, you know, certainly about being comfortable in uncomfortable situations and being compassionate to myself. I mean, there's not one of the things on the list that, you know, that of concepts that you've really, I think, put out in a great way, a very clear and pithy way. I don't think there's anything there that I'm not still working on, except maybe the authenticity part. And only because it's hard for me, like, I think that the more I think about being authentic, you know, it takes me away from being authentic. But I think, you know, I definitely think that's one of the most important ones, as we talked about before, is just showing a care. But I think they all are ones, every single one, one through ten,

from grit to having clear purpose to mastering thinking to self-awareness, controlling the controllables, empowering emotion. I think they all are ones that day-to-day I'm working on and that I look for opportunities like this one to help me to do it better. As I said, I certainly learned from you and I think I can learn from everybody. You know, that just gets back to our conversation earlier in terms of that you're always learning, you know, and you're always on this kind of growth mindset journey to really improve your craft. So love it. If anybody wants to get that PDF of the top 10

traits of high performers, you can do so on my website, cindereckcampoff.com. Jonathan, let's go to the speed round. So the first thing that comes to your mind, just answer quickly. If you could recommend one book or a person to follow, what would you recommend and why? Wow. I mean, I think, you know, there's so many books. It depends on what your interests are. But lately I'm reading a lot of stuff about mindfulness. So people like Stephen Hayes and Kelly Wilson are authors, I think, that have written a lot about interesting stuff about mindfulness. One of the best books I've ever, I think, read is Man's Search for Meaning, which is about Viktor Frankl and his experience in concentration camps. As far as, you know, concrete skills, I really love, for sports, I really love Ken Revisa's work and Heads Up Baseball, I think,

is one of the classic books that's really, you know, it can be applied to many sports, but I think Ken really lays it out so clearly in that book, how we use performance psychology. So I think those are the things that come top to mind. And what's one word that people would describe you as, Jonathan? Ridiculous. No, I mean, yeah, definitely ridiculous, but enthusiastic. I think enthusiasm is a way that people would describe me. I think it's tied to enjoyment, but enthusiasm. And what is the best advice you've ever received? My mom used to have me, when I went to bed, every night say three or five grateful things, things I'm most grateful

for. And it's a habit that I do with my daughters. Every night before they go to bed, I ask them, what were they most grateful for in the day? So I'm not so sure that that's advice, but I certainly feel like that was implicit advice in how to view the world. And so I guess, you know, the idea of being grateful and practicing gratitude was something that was instilled in me from a very early age. And so I guess the advice was to me to do that with my girls and to find ways to be grateful. That's amazing because I hear one of the things that we've talked a lot about in this interview and is very apparent and is really important in your work is joy and gratitude. So it's pretty cool that you've had that practice ever since you were young. You know, I got to say, you know, a lot of that was instilled in me from

an early age and I really value it and I see it as a practicable skill. And what is the success quote that you live by and how do you think it applies to us? So again, I'm not sure this is a success quote, but the quote that I really say to everybody and I really love is, you know, we act as though comfort and luxury are the most important things in life, but really all we need is something to be enthusiastic about. And so that's attributed to Albert Einstein. And I think, you know, in my mind, one of the best paths to mastery and success is enthusiasm and enjoyment for the moment. And that's one of the biggest catalysts for commitment. So I think that when we think about success, that passion for what you do and developing a passion and developing enthusiasm and motivation is something I think that quote

gets to. So Jonathan, tell us as we wrap the interview, a little bit more about your book when it's coming out. I think your interview today was just so spot on. I can't wait to read your book because I think there's going to be a lot of really good things in there that not only apply to performance but our life. So tell us about where we can find it. Yeah, so my book, Life is Sport, is about what you can really learn from elite performers and athletes about how to win at life. And when I say win, I mean two things, as you could guess. One is, you know, learning the techniques of sport and performance psychology, but also learning how the aspects of practicing enjoyment can really help you to be at your best and to have greater life satisfaction. So Life

as Sport is, it's coming out. You can get it on Amazon. It's coming out May 3rd. It's put out by the publisher Decapo at Perseus Book Group. And I think it really gives, through interviews with top performers and athletes, but also through really talking about what it means to practice performance psychology, how anybody, no matter what you're doing,

can apply those principles of mastery and enjoyment to live more fulfilling and successful lives. And can you pre-order it on Amazon right now? You absolutely can. You can just as soon as you listen to a few more podcasts from Sindra, you can run right over to Amazon and just look at Life as Sport by Jonathan Fader, and you'll find it right there in pre-order. And you can also get it in your local bookstore at Barnes and Noble or wherever you are practicing enjoyment and mastery. And Jonathan, where can we follow you or connect with you if we'd like to do so? Two best places to find me are one on my website. It's just

JonathanFader.com, my name, or on Twitter at DrFader, at D like David, R like Roger, F like Frank, A-D-E-R, at DrFader on Twitter. Jonathan, tell us what final advice you have for those high performers who are listening. I would say, look, make your goal to be a lifelong learner. You're already doing that by listening to a podcast like this because, Sindra, you're clearly someone that appreciates what everybody can offer. So, you know, I would just say, look at what you can learn every day and also make your goal not only mastery, but enjoying the process of becoming a master. Jonathan, you provided so much value today. I am so grateful for your time. I took many notes as we were talking. And there's a few things that I really want to point out that I

think that you just really played full out for the listeners. So I really appreciate that. I love your discussion about hunger and finding your why and really getting clear on your intrinsic motivation. I loved our discussion about having a growth mindset and that your growth mindset is, you know, you can choose either to see something as a threat or an opportunity. And the choice to me was something that really stood out. I love your fish tank analogy with your mental climate and how, you know, the best of the best really are very clear.

And they clean that fish tank a lot. So their mind and their mental climate is very clear and helping them be at their best. And I finally loved our conversation about focusing on the process and how enjoyment and joy is really foundational in your work. That's something I think that's really unique in terms of, you know, a person in performance psychology, I don't hear them talk a lot about joy and enjoyment, but you're absolutely right. That's so foundational in the process. And just for each of us to take that and remember to be grateful and to enjoy what we're doing and focus really in the present moment instead of the outcome.

So I really, really want to thank you for taking valuable time out of your day to impact all of us with your positive message. It's so, I appreciate it. I learned a lot today from your questions. And, you know, I think, as you know, that's one of my goals. So it was a gift to me. And I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about it. And I look forward to many conversations, both recording and non.

Awesome. Thank you so much, both recording and non. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jonathan. My pleasure. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. Are you signed up for Sindra's weekly email with free mental tools and strategies for high performance? Why the heck not?

Text MENTALLYSTRONG, all one word, to 22828