High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 355: The Grit Factor with Shannon Huffman Polson, Speaker, Author and CEO of the Grit Institute

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

Shannon Huffman Polson has worked with leaders in industries across the country and around the world on managing change, building leadership and grit, and planning for diversity. Shannon is founder and CEO of The Grit Institute, a leadership development organization dedicated to the whole leader approach to ethical and people centered performance in times of change and challenge. Shannon is the author of The Grit Factor: Courage, Resilience and Leadership in the Most Male Dominated Organization in the World, forthcoming from Harvard Business Review Press in September 2020. Before writing her book and starting The Grit Institute, Shannon was one of the first women to fly Apache helicopters, serving on three continents and leading two flight platoons and a line company. As a keynote speaker at business and corporate events around the world her clients have included Microsoft, Amazon, New York Life, Bristol Myers Squibb, the FDIC, and T-Mobile. In this podcast, Shannon and Cindra talk about: · How to develop your grit · What it was like bring one of the first female Apache helicopter pilots · How grit and leadership are connected · Why your core purpose helps you be gritty · Ways to own your own story · Why stress is a good thing and how we learned this from the Navy Seals You can find more information about Shannon here: http://www.shannonpolson.com/ and at https://www.thegritinstitute.com/. HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/shannon HOW TO ENTER THE PODCAST GIVEAWAY TO WIN $500 CASH: www.drcindra.com/giveaway FB COMMUNITY FOR THE HPM PODCAST: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2599776723457390/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong   Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best so you can accomplish all your goals and dreams. So I'm over here following my big dreams and I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Ms. Pac-Man.

Yes, the 1980s game Ms. Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the High Performance Mindset. Welcome to episode 354 with Shannon Huffman Paulson. This is your host, Dr. Cindra Kampoff, and I am grateful that you're here. If you know that mindset is essential to your success, then you are in the right place. If you haven't already, come join us at the High Performance Mindset Podcast

community on Facebook, where we share behind the scenes of the high performance mindset. We have discussions about the episodes and share more tangible strategies and inspiration for you to be at your best. So on Facebook, you can search for us on High Performance Mindset Podcast Community.

And second, moving forward, we are providing the transcripts for each of these interviews. They are so good. We wanna provide you extra value for listening to the High Performance Mindset podcast. So for each of the episodes moving forward, you can head over to the website to look for the transcript. Today's episode, you can head over and look for it at cindracampoff.com

slash Shannon. So I heard Shannon during a webinar for the first time a few weeks ago. She was delivering a webinar with the Harvard Business Review and I knew I needed to have her on this podcast to help you. We are both lovers of grit. My book Beyond Grit and the content in that book is very similar to what Shannon and I talk about today. So it was awesome to have this interview and I can't wait to hear what's helpful for you. So Shannon Huffman Paulson has worked with leaders in industries across the country and around the world on managing change, building leadership and grit and planning for diversity. Shannon is the founder and CEO of the Grit Institute, a leadership development organization dedicated to whole leadership approach to ethical and people-centered performance in

times of change and challenge. She is the author of the upcoming book with the Harvard Business Review Press, which will be available September 2020, called The Grit Factor, Courage, Resilience, and Leadership in the Most Male-Dominated Organization in the World. Shannon was one of the first women to fly an Apache helicopter, serving on three continents and leading two flight platoons and a line company. Now as a keynote speaker at business and corporate events around the world, her clients have included Microsoft, Amazon, New York Life, and T-Mobile. In this podcast,

Shannon and I talk about how to actually develop your grit, what it's like to be one of the first female Apache helicopter pilots, how grit and leadership are connected, why your core purpose helps you stay gritty, ways to own your story and how that's connected with grit, and why stress is a good thing and how we learn this from the Navy SEALs. My favorite part of this interview was when she was telling a story about a colonel and how a colonel told her she would never fly an Apache helicopter. She said, I have to own my story. I will control my narrative. Today's rating and review comes from

Maddie from Great Britain. She said, love the energy, content, guests, and inspiration from this podcast. Thank you so much, Maddie. I'm grateful. Thanks so much for leaving a rating and review. And if you haven't already, wherever you're listening on iTunes, iHeart Radio, Stitcher Radio, anywhere you're listening, head over and leave us a rating and review. And I can't wait to read it next time. I know your mind is going to be blown during this interview with Shannon. Look forward to hearing what you think about this interview. And without further ado, let's bring on Shannon. Shannon, I am so looking forward to talking with you today. So thank you so much for joining us on the High Performance Mindset Podcast today.

Cindra, it's such a joy to be here with another lover of grit. Thanks so much for having me. I know. I'm like, this is going to be a really fun conversation. I first got to know your work. A friend sent me your webinar link, and there was a webinar about grit that you did a few weeks ago with the Harvard Business Review, which your book, The Grit Factor, is coming out in September 2020, so just in a few months. So I was loving the webinar, and I was like, I need to reach out to Shannon, and I can't wait to talk to you, but also just to help people learn more about what you're doing. Well, thank you so much. It seems like such a great fit with your work as well. And I'm grateful to have been introduced to you, however it comes.

Exactly. So give us a little insight into your passion and what you do right now, Shannon. Yeah, you know what, I've been for the last number of years now really passionate about connecting to people and working on leadership and grit. And I really do see them as connected, even though I think for some people they see one or the other. But I think when you when you exhibit grit, you are showing leadership and leadership requires grit. And I find that many people that I work with actually are really looking for development in both of those areas. And so I've been telling stories over the last number of years of leaders in the vanguard of their fields. They happen to be women, they happen to be military, and this all came about because of my own background. But really telling those stories to offer the opportunity for other people to enter into those stories and gain strength from those stories as they develop their own. And I really, that is the beginning of the grit factor. It's the beginning of the training that I have that accompanies it at the Grit Institute called Going for Grit, which is really looking at owning your own story. So that's been my passion for the last five years and going strong. So one of the things that I think is cool about your background is you're one of the first women to fly an Apache

helicopter. So tell us what that experience was like. I know you went to Duke University, and you know, you're in the ROTC there. And just what was that like being one of the first women to do that for the United States? You know, I'm incredibly grateful for the experience, really, truly. And I worked with some of the best people that I'll ever know, and some of the worst as well. There's always a bell curve, right, in a large organization. But that really was, and I'll just say briefly, that that was the genesis, of course, of the grit factor, of the Grit Institute, because a young lieutenant reached out to me about 10 years ago and asked me if I would be her mentor as she began the process of entering flight school for the

Army. And I said, of course, I'd love to do that. But I realized, oh my gosh, like my experience is already a decade old. I transitioned through an MBA at the Tuck School at Dartmouth and then spent some time in the corporate world as well, leading and managing teams. And so I wondered, gosh, you know, my experience was so unique as one of the first women in this particular time that preceded hers. How can I scale the advice that she receives and then also scale the people to whom that's available? Because this is going to be a lot of work. And that really was the genesis of what became the Grit Factor and the Grit Institute. And it is stories like mine of many, many women leaders in the vanguard of their

fields, often the only woman, often fields that by themselves were incredibly challenging and incredibly demanding. And it certainly mirrored my own experience. It gave me, in a way, a sisterhood that I hadn't had when I was serving. And so I'm grateful for it selfishly, but also grateful to be able to honor these stories, honor these experiences by passing them on. Yeah. So there's so many things that we can dive into. I want to talk to you about grit specifically and how you started studying it and what does it mean to you? But I also want to ask you about like, what are you learning from these women? Because if they are some of the only who, you know, have been in their fields,

what do you see is like, you know, the differentiator? And I, you know, have been in their fields. What do you see is like, you know, the differentiator? And I, you know, I'm speaking from my experience, I do a lot of work in sport. I've worked for the Minnesota Vikings for the last four years doing mental training. So there's, you know, not a lot of women in the NFL. So give us a little insight on like, what is different about these women for them to be able to, you know, survive and maybe even thrive in this space of that's just male dominated? Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And it really is ultimately over several years of doing the primary research of these interviews. It really is what formed the backbone and the structure of the grit factor of the training going for grit. And that training is available, by the way, to individuals or to corporations or organizations. And what it really came down to is looking at this

massive interviews, several dozen interviews, then taking the secondary research that was primary in the fields of leadership, in the fields of grit and resilience, and then combining that too with some of the positive psychology that underpins the Army's Master Resilience Training Program. And that was a decades-long development in its making as well, as you probably know, both for soldiers and for their families, because we've had these multiple deployments and sustained stressors that are incredibly difficult on the military, something I think that we can all in a different way relate to right now, especially in this time. So the idea of grit and resilience is particularly

important. But what I really came out from understanding from these interviews and from my own experience as well is kind of putting this into three phases. And we start with the commit phase. The commit phase is, and I like to say that you're a leader when you make the commitment to excellence, when you make the commitment to making a difference wherever you are. So you might be the janitor or the administrative assistant. So that's okay. It doesn't matter what seat you're sitting in. You are a leader when you make the commitment to lead.

So that commit phase is really about owning your story. And I've got multiple exercises around this. And this is deep introspective work. It's not kind of thinking about it for five minutes. It's really doing deep work. And then drilling down, not just to purpose, starting with why is okay, but it doesn't go far enough. So really drilling down into what I think of as core purpose, which I think is such

an important thing for all of us to do in this time. But I think it was pretty clear was at the base for many of these leaders' experiences that became part of the grit factor. The second phase is learning. The third phase is launch. And learning, and this is something, it's interesting, because this came out of every interview with a senior leader, essentially said that one of the most strategic leadership skills

that needs to be developed, that we don't spend almost any time on, is the art and the science of listening. So in this learning phase, this middle phase of learning, it's really understanding that leaders listen first, that leaders know that to be strategic, they have to ask the questions, they have to leave the space for the answer, and not rush to the response, right? So there's a whole art and a science to this that is really absolutely critical, especially by the time you get to be a senior leader, but certainly something that should be developed even at the lower levels. The second part is building your team. Your team matters a lot. You know this in sports. None of us do this alone,

right? And, and these, these leaders knew that they had to have a team. And so we look at the different elements of what that team might involve. And then there's building your resilience. And building your resilience really is something that can be done, right? So you don't, you're not just born with grit or not. You, you can build grit, you can build resilience, right? So you don't, you're not just born with grit or not. You, you can build grit, you can build resilience. And that's part of this learning phase, this middle phase of developing your own ability to get through hard times and to not just get through them, but to really thrive and excel. The last phase then is launch and launch is about, and we can come, we should come back to some of these because this is kind of where the rubber meets the road or where, where we take off into the sky, depending on which metaphor you want to use.

But it really is about authenticity. And this is something that the leaders that were able to sustain themselves through a career understood in a way that I did not, for example, as a junior leader, right? And we should talk more about that one for sure because that's a hard one for a lot of people. There is also the ability to adapt. And adaptability is maybe the most critical element for success. I mean, right now and anytime. And that builds on all of those other pieces. So I think that's one of the real important parts to understand. And then finally, there's this audacity. And I love the word audacity, because audacity is about being willing to take risks, being willing to put yourself out there and understanding that if you fail, that's not the end, right? You pick yourself up one more time than you fall. It's not failure that matters. It's what you do with it that counts. And leaders

understand that. They're willing to go out on a limb. They're willing to take those hard assignments. They ask for what they want. They ask for those hard assignments. And ultimately that is what leads to success. So it's a combination of those factors. Each builds on the other in this commit and then learn and then launch. Awesome. So commit, learn, and launch. One of the things I'm wondering, Shannon, is your perspective on maybe we should define what grit means for you right now. And when you were talking about the commit phase, I was thinking about owning your story. Ooh, that's so important. And I was thinking about how do you think that connects with grit? So tell us your perspective on that. Yeah. Well, and you know, just as well,

I'm sure that Angela Duckworth's definition is passion and perseverance towards a long-term goal. That's her definition of grit. And I honor her incredible body of work around this in this field. It's interesting, though, because right now, many of us don't know what the long-term goal is, right? Because the horizon is constantly shifting. And I have always defined grit, since I started this work anyway, as a dogged determination in the face of difficult

circumstances. And for the time that we're in, I like that one better right now, I will say, because that long-term horizon is really unclear. And I think that is what is so unsettling for so many people right now, whether it's personally or professionally. So that's where I like to start with as a definition, but I do always ask that of the people that I interview as well and get a lot of great answers. So where does that connect to owning your own story? I think, you know, the work that I have people do around story, and this is the first exercise. This is actually where I would tell people to start right now if they're feeling buffeted by turbulence and uncertainty and feeling frightened? Because I hear that actually from a number of people and professional people say,

okay, okay, enough on the strategic stuff. What do we do right now? Because people are scared. Right. And I say, you know what, the place you start is this commit phase. And you can go back to it at any point. And in fact, you should. And owning your own story means going back.

And I like to do a lifeline exercise where we draw out your lifeline from birth until now. And of course, you'll be looking forward with that arrow. And look at the events that had primarily a positive influence on you on the top part of the line and events that had primarily a negative influence on you on the bottom part of the line. And of course, anything of substance is going to be on both parts of that line, and that's okay. So that takes a little bit of time. And then you start to go back and look at what values are represented by those experiences

for you. And you'll start to see a trend if you do this, if you go back and say, okay, well, maybe this is athletic performance, maybe it's musical performance, maybe it's a connection to wilderness, or for me, it's a connection to service, right? So what is that thing that comes up again and again? And this is not a specific activity. This is a value. And then you look at those values and really say, how do I understand my purpose in this? There's a whole other exercise for a core purpose.

But what are those things that are most meaningful to me as a person, that most drive me as a person? This isn't your company yet, not your organization, but me as a person. How do I connect and find that source of strength that then allows me to contribute my best in whatever field it is that I'm working in or playing in or flying in. And so that's really that work of story. And I think it's that foundational work that gives you the anchor when you are feeling a bit buffeted, when you are experiencing this turbulence in the air, right? Hopefully you don't have an anchor in the air, but a boat would want one. And so turbulence in the sea.

So it's that anchor that keeps you connected to what's important. And that allows you to pivot. that allows you to change direction, that allows you to even pick a different path, but you're always connected to the things that matter most. And there's a sense of security in that, but there's also real meaning in that because that allows you then to do that contributive work that all of us want to do for a life of meaning. That's really powerful, Shannon. And I was thinking a little bit about owning your story, right? When I understand my story, where I've got to where I am today, that also gives me more clarity on what my purpose is. And I think purpose evolves, it changes. And so by continually connecting with your story,

I think it's also how you connect with other people, right? Like, I feel like I know you better just hearing your story and reading about it. And I think as leaders, it's so important because the vulnerability piece, if we're not telling our story, how do people even connect with us? How do we build trust and relationships when people really don't know us? But we got to know ourselves first. That's exactly right. And, and, you know, when you do make that connection to that,

that purpose and you're right, purpose might change. I've had people kind of be nervous and say, oh my gosh, I feel like I have maybe two or three. I'm like, that's okay. That's okay. It's, it's doing that work. And when you're connected to the purpose, it's easier to be more vulnerable in sharing your story, right? Because you understand anyone has ups and downs and mistakes and failures and successes as well. And so sharing that story with real honesty and vulnerability, I think is a lot easier to do, a lot less scary. It's still scary, but it's a lot less scary when you are connected to that core purpose and you've looked at that arc of your life. Awesome. So Shannon, when you think about grit and your definition, a dog of determination in the face of uncertainty,

is that what you said? In the face of difficult circumstances, but you know what? Uncertainty qualifies. So there you go. Difficult circumstances. How do you think, in your opinion, it's developed? You know, I'm kind of thinking about people who are listening and might say, well, I don't, I'm not sure I have that much grit or I really want to improve my grit. What would you say is like, all right, how do we develop this? Well, first of all, know that you can, I think that's the first thing. And it is a mindset thing, right? Is the understanding that you can do that. You might not have grit yet, right? It's the yet at the end of the sentence. Yeah. So I think the key

is that to understand, and I went back to West Point a couple of years ago to speak. And one of the things we talked about is that if you train for pushups, you train for pushups by doing pushups, right? You don't train for doing something else. So you train for doing hard things, for getting through hard things, for working through with grit, by doing things that require grit, by doing other hard things. And those should be incremental. They should be small. And then you increasingly make them bigger and bigger challenges. The story that I like to tell recently is I was bike riding with my seven-year-old and we were talking about building those ships in a bottle. I said, I want to build a ship in a bottle. I said, great, that's great. I'm sure

we can find something like that. And he said, but, I want to build a ship in a bottle. I said, great, that's great. I'm sure we can find something like that. And he said, but first I want to start with a rowboat before I do a ship. And then I want to do a raft. And I was like, wow, he gets it. Like you start with something smaller and more simple and then you build that up and then you build that up and take increasingly bigger steps.

But what I do think is important to understand is if you're in the midst of something that seems so overwhelming that it doesn't seem like you can go anywhere, taking that step in a different area of focus also applies because the grit that we develop in one part of our life applies to the other part that we're really getting stuck with.

So sometimes it's better to take those steps in another area and then come back and return to the other part that we're really getting stuck with. So sometimes it's better to take those steps in another area and then come back and return to the place where we feel stuck or unable to progress and then take those small steps there. Now there's a number of practices that are really specific towards building that resilience, building that grit. But I would say the most important thing is say, I'm going to do hard things. Nice. Nice. I like to say that to myself, like I can do hard things. Like I was born to do difficult things. So I guess when I say that I'm developing my grit. I like that. Yeah, there you go. And then that mindset that when you do that, you will build your grit, like know that it's scientifically very clear that that's what happens. And so just remind yourself of the evidence and move forward. Yeah, nice. So Shannon, what I always ask all of my guests is to define what failure means to them and tell us about a time they failed. And I love this question because this weekend I went back

and looked at, I started analyzing the differences, how people define failure different, and it's pretty cool. But I'm thinking about, you know, your work, flying helicopters, and just what you've been doing since then. But tell us what you think failure means to you, and tell us about a time that didn't go so great for you. Yeah, that's such a good question, and an important one. Wow. I would say that my first gut answer would be that failure is not meeting expectations. And with the caveat that that's not because of some other extraneous circumstance, but a failure is not meeting expectations when I have control over that circumstance. And so, and expectations for me, like they are for you and probably for most of your listeners means exceeding expectations. So not meeting the standard, but exceeding the standard. Uh, and so, um, uh, wow, I there's, there's so many examples of this. Um, for me in my life, I think I fail every single day. And, um,

but I'll tell you one that I talk about in the grit factor, which I think is a good one because it's the only time it happened. And I was so aware of being in what is essential, you know, was often described as a fishbowl. When I was 23 years old, I arrived, or I guess I was probably 25 when I arrived at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and I was the youngest woman in the regiment of 120 male combat helicopter pilots. And I knew that every single thing I did was being analyzed and that I had no room for doing anything but exceptional work. I mean, I arrived there, I had cut my hair, like buzzed it up the back, not because the army required it, but because I wasn't going to give

anybody anything to say about why I thought I was different or why I thought something should be different for me. And I focused so hard on the work that I was doing. And I did. I did very, very well. And the flying was really what was going to matter to the pilots because that's the job of an attack helicopter battalion. And I had always done very well all the way through flight school. I graduated as an honor grad and got to my unit and I had an instrument check ride with an instructor pilot who, whom I liked, but he was very upfront about being uncomfortable about me being there, which I actually sort of appreciated in some respects, right? It's nice to know where you

stand. He wasn't unkind. He just said, look, I am not comfortable with you here. I'm not comfortable being in the field with you. I'm not. And so I knew there was this discomfort that he had. And so I had this discomfort in return because I knew he was uncomfortable. And we went out to fly. He was an outstanding instructor pilot and instruments in particular. And so instruments for those who are not, who don't know is, well, especially in attack helicopters, we've only fly instruments really

once a year for our check ride. It may be one flight before that to get ready for it. It's really a tactical helicopter that flies low and doesn't usually fly with instruments, but we're required to be instrument qualified. And it's pretty tough. Like you have to fly, you know, without looking at anything, but what's right in front of you, you can't look out the windows. And, and it takes, takes a lot of getting used to in the original training and then frankly, in the subsequent training as well. So I was getting ready for the check ride. We went out, we pre-flighted, we took off. And in the afternoon in the South, and I was in North Carolina at the time, there are these huge thunderstorms and these thunderstorms come and then they go. Anyone in the South knows about them.

Actually, in the Midwest, you probably do too. Yeah, and there's a lot of turbulence in the air as a result of that. And there's also a lot of heat in the summer. So there's enormous amounts of heat that come up off the fields that's raising you, right? And then you come over like a riparian area or a river where there's trees and darker areas. And then all of a sudden it's cooler. So the result on an aircraft that flies relatively close to the ground even when

we're flying instruments we don't go too high in the Apache is that there's a lot of turbulence and and one of the requirements is to keep your altitude plus or minus 100 feet when you're flying instruments. And I failed to do that on this checkride. I did not keep it in within plus or minus 100 feet and and you know you have to adjust for these things when you go out there because you're going to drop suddenly and then you're going to come back up and you have to make the adjustments in the helicopter. But we landed and I had not kept things with intolerance. And I had never, ever, ever failed a check ride before. And

I was mortified. I mean, I knew that everybody was going to know this within 30 minutes of us landing. And not because he was being malicious, just because I was being watched and I was being observed. And, and it was really hard. And, you know, one of the things I talk about in the grit factor is something we talk about in aviation, which is that you, because the requirements, once you fail a check ride, is that then you go take another check ride with another instructor. And if you fail that one, then you're grounded and you have to go up through your progression from the beginning again. And it's a pretty big deal if that happens. And so I had another,

I had one more chance. And what I had to be able to do was to compartmentalize that failure and to put it away, to literally think about, and they actually talked about this in flight school. You think about putting it in a box, stealing the box and setting it on the shelf. And now you're focused. That doesn't mean you never take it off. It doesn't mean you don't go back to it and address it later, but it does mean that when you are in the midst of the action that's required, you're going to have to put that away. Now, this was true for pilots that were going through divorces or had other kind of home challenges or any soldier similarly with challenges. Any of us that had other challenges extraneous to work that could interfere with the execution of that work,

you had to learn to put it in a box and put it away. And my next checkride went very well and everything was fine. But I just remember the sense of mortification in the moment and almost paralysis. Like, I can't believe this happened. And I know everyone's going to know this. And I know, and suddenly I was doubting my own ability. And you have to kind of say, wait a minute, let's reframe this. Like I've always performed well. I've always done my work and I've always excelled. And so put this aside and let's focus on the next step. Awesome. So what I heard in that, just how you moved on is like you protected your confidence. You reminded yourself of the ways that you have been successful, that it was just

like this one time. And then you, I like the idea of like putting in the box. Like I don't need to think about it right now. I can process it later if I need to, but moving on quickly from that. Yes. And, and, you know, the reality is all of those, that's a hard thing to do. So it's not just like getting out of the helicopter and being like, all right, I'm going to be confident and go do this. It's, um, it's hard and, uh, and it takes work and really focused application. But, um, but again, something all of your listeners will be familiar with.

Yeah, and mental strength. And I was thinking about like, okay, so you're sitting in the helicopter with the guy who says like, I'm not really comfortable with you being here. You could have easily been like, yeah, this isn't a place for me. So I'd love to hear like,

what was your internal dialogue that you accepted that you didn't let that impact if you were going to stay kind of give me a sense of like, what did you do? And I think for female listeners, this is really important. But for anybody who gets this, you know, feedback that, hey, you aren't supposed to be here, but you really want to do what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the best story I have for that is actually not that one, but I'm going to back up a little bit because I think it helps inform it for me, um, how I would respond because this is the kind of thing that I would hear a lot over those eight years and have heard it subsequently. Um, and, um, it's interesting, right. Uh, but I will, the story that I like to tell is when I was, had not yet graduated from

college. So I was still, was still an English major at Duke. I was still a cadet in ROTC. I'd been drilling with the National Guard for two years as part of a simultaneous membership program. So the assumption was that I would receive my commission in the National Guard and then receive an assignment for the years ahead. So as a senior in college, I drove out to the state aviation office in Raleigh, North Carolina to receive that assignment. And I reported to the aviation officer, he was a colonel, so probably late 30s. He sat behind a desk that seemed as wide as his room with these shiny plate glass windows, everything was very formal and fancy. And, you know, I was just turned 21 years old, I was trying not to shake too much and gave a salute and he asked me to sit down. And then we exchanged a couple of

pleasantries back and forth before the interchange that I will never forget. When he stopped in the middle of a sentence, leaned back in his chair, looked down his nose and said, you realize cadet that you will never fly an attack aircraft. And I looked back at him and I realized his comment for what it was meant to be, which was small and mean and cutting because at the time attack aircraft weren't open to women to fly. And so I looked back at him and I said, the only thing you could in a circumstance like that, which is yes, sir. And I went on to the next meeting, which was with the assignments officer, and he was quite a bit nicer, quite a bit more civil. He picked up one of those old-fashioned phones, the kind that had that little curly thing at the end, if you remember those, and made a phone call.

And he said, listen, cadet, this isn't official, but the battalion commander won't allow a female pilot to be assigned to his unit. So I said, yes, sir. And I went back to the campus of Duke University, went to the ROTC detachment, and requested a transfer out of the National Guard and on to active duty. And then later that spring, Congress changed the game on that colonel, lifted the combat exclusion clause, and suddenly every aircraft in the inventory was open to women and men to fly. And I thought that the sky was the limit. And so I went then to Fort Rucker, Alabama, graduated as an honor grad, was assigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina as an Apache pilot.

And, but I, at each step in that process, I had to decide I am going to own my story. I'm not going to allow somebody else to shape my narrative. I'm going to control my narrative. And I think this is something that came up with pretty much every leader that I interviewed for The Grit Factor is that we're all given the raw material of our lives. We don't get to choose that in many cases, but we do get to choose what we do with that raw material and how it is that we shape that for success. And I think that's what's really important in that owning your story piece and in reacting when somebody said, I'm not comfortable with you being here. You're never going to do this. Why are you here? It's deciding I'm going to own my own story. I've earned the

right to be here and I'm going to knock it out of the park. Nice. I'm cheering you on. I love what you just said about, I'm going to own my story. I'm going to control my narrative. And I'm thinking about the story of your past, but also I'm thinking when you say that, like your future story, and just because it said that you can't be here, it's not going to, you can still get to decide if you're going to listen or if you're going to, you know, one of the things that I, I find that's really interesting in pro athletes in particular, when they are told that they can't. Right. It's like the pro athletes who stay in a league for a long time, they turn that and they say,

watch me. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's what I'm hearing that you did, that it was, sure, that's your opinion, but I get to control what I'm going to decide to do. That's exactly right. And I think that has come up again and again from other leaders and was certainly my experience, both the sense of like, I'm not going to decide to do. That's exactly right. And I think that has come up again and again from, from other leaders. And it was certainly my experience, both the sense of like, I'm not going to quit. I won't quit. There's nothing that can make me quit nothing. But

there's also this sense of exactly watch me. Yeah. Right. And I think that is the reaction. And it's a great reaction because that just fuels, that fuels the fire even more. Now, hopefully you also, I don't think that's enough to fuel a fire, but it is a great fuel to go on top of that, owning your story, your foundational core purpose, right? And that work right there. And then somebody says you can't do it. And you're like, really? Watch me. I love it. Okay. So for everyone who's listening, just take that, that little phrase when someone tells you, you can't. Exactly. Yes, that's right.

And my dad always said, can't never do anything. So you're not allowed to do that for yourself either. Nice. So a few things from your webinar that I wanted to ask you about, Shannon. So I thought one really cool perspective that you had was like how stress can actually help us develop our grit. And I think right now people are under a lot of stress. We had our first, my family, our first COVID case, you know, like one of our family members tested positive for COVID. So the last couple of weeks have been really stressful and just like a little uncertain we're all okay but you know I it's also given me

a different frame of this just what everybody is experiencing right now and how it can be so stressful so give us a little insight on like what role do you think stress can play in our ability to develop our grit well you know it's interesting because I I just um and actually an old boss sent this to me knowing the work that I was doing, which was some very, very recent research. And I want to back up before that to say that I think I would have said before that stress is really good in the moment. And I think this research will back that up or can be good in the moment. The key is also though managing that over the longterm, because I do think that we all need to take care of ourselves and back way off. Sometimes I have something I call the grit spiral, which before you can get to take care of ourselves and back way off sometimes. I have something I

call the grit spiral, which before you can get to the outside of that, where you're really innovating and creating, you have to make sure that if at some point you're not ready for that, you need to come back inside that spiral. And at the very inside is really taking care of yourself, things like eating well and sleeping well and exercising every day and connecting with your family. Those things have to be there for a sustainable management of stress, right? And a sustainable performance. At the same time, what's so interesting in this, I think many of us think, oh my gosh, this stress is going to age us all 10 years and we're all going to, you know, be sick for it. And I think the key that came out of this most recent research, and it's a research about the Navy SEALs, actually, and the Navy SEALs and their BUDS training, which, of course, is designed to be exceptionally stressful, is that it has a lot to do with mindset.

So this, I think, is critical to all that we consider about grit. And this is this mindset that hard things make us stronger. You have to have that mindset. You have to number one, know that the scientific evidence is there and then have the mindset where you understand like, Hey, this is hard, but this is going to make me better. In the same way, this training specifically around mindsets regarding stress showed that when Navy SEALs went into the BUDS training believing that stress enhances performance, it did in fact enhance performance and significantly. So it showed something like a 54% increased completion rate, better completion rate, and actually better ability on some very specific tasks. And very interestingly, actually,

60% fewer negative evaluations from peers, which seems to indicate much better cohesion and teamwork. So the mindset that stress can actually enhance performance can help us use stress to enhance performance. And I think that's absolutely fascinating. It's so recent that it didn't make it into the grit factor. But I think that's really important. Other mindset issues did for sure that are related. And I think this builds on this growth mindset work that Carol Dweck has done that's so important. But going into difficult circumstances, feeling the impact of stress with the mindset that that can make you better will in fact help you utilize that in a productive way. And that's just, I think, incredibly powerful. I think that's powerful. It makes me think of Kelly McGonnell's research, and maybe you've seen her book called The Upside of Stress.

Ah, okay. Yeah. I have not seen it, so I'll look for that. Yeah, yeah. But I like that idea. And I think right now, I really appreciate what you're saying is we have to, you have to take care of yourself. But I think there's this, I mean, I'm learning a lot about myself. I'm learning a lot about what's important to me and how to be able to adjust and adapt my business. You know, so there's, there is a lot of things that are positive. I'm putting that in air quotes because what does that mean? But some good that's coming from the stress that we're experiencing. That's right. And the other piece, and all of the research supports all of this as well, but is that

where we choose to focus matters a lot, right? So this is about mindset. It's about perspective. Yes, there are a lot of really challenging things happening right now. And there's no question, we need to address those things in our own lives, in the lives of the people that we work with, or that work for us. And in the broader society, all of that is true. And this does not in any way take away from that. But the perspective, and the focus on gratitude for what is good in this, like I've had my kids, they are missing their friends, but they are

closer together, right? We've had much more family time, I've been, my kids are, they are, they are missing their friends, but they are closer together. Right. We've had much more family time. I've been on the road less, like focusing on those pieces that are positive, that focus allows you to tackle those bigger issues that still need to be addressed. And that's so important. I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. And I think it helps us develop our grit and help us, you know, just a different perspective, stick with the things that we're excited about. There was something else that I thought was a really cool perspective that you talked about in your webinar. And you talked about how fear is something we need to turn towards. Yes. Tell us your perspective on that, because I think that's a

really amazing, awesome perspective that all of us can use because there's so many things that we maybe fear during this time period, but also that we fear that maybe we're holding us back from our goals and really what we're designed to do. For sure. And if it's okay, I'll just take you out onto the tarmac for my very first flight in the Apache for this. I know I did that. Okay, perfect. It sort of sets it up well, right? But I was, I had just finished flight school. I just graduated as an honor grad from the officer basic course in flight school. And I had asked for and earned and requested a transfer into the Apache attack helicopter. So I walked out on the tarmac on a winter day in Alabama, down at Fort

Rucker, towards the Apache that I was getting ready to fly. Now, the Apache is a weapons platform, an aerial weapons platform, essentially, right? It's 58 feet long. It's 18 feet wide. It's 12 feet high. It has four rotor blades, two 1850 horsepower engines that power this thing. There's a 30 millimeter cannon, high explosive rounds that slung from the bottom. On its wings, there's any combination of the 2.75 inch folding fin aerial rocket and the anti-tank Hellfire missile. On the nose are three different sight systems that allow it to see under day and night and adverse conditions. I walked out on the tarmac on that winter day, and I had chills going up and down my back. And they were chills of excitement, but they were

chills of terror as well. But I wasn't about to let anybody know what I was feeling because I walked out towards that aircraft and I thought, who am I to fly this thing? I mean, I was an English major in college and I had to decide on the tarmac then that that's when I was going to own my own story, right? That's when I was going to own my own story, right? That's when I was going to control my own narrative. And so I walked out to that aircraft. I put one foot up onto the wheel, the other foot up onto the Ford avionics bay, opened that all glass cockpit that opens up and out like a Lamborghini, swung myself in.

And as we got ready, we ran up the helicopter. We began to taxi for takeoff. I like to ask people if they know which way you take off in the Apache helicopter. I have no idea. Most people say up. And that is, of course, ultimately the end goal. But in the Apache, like in any other aircraft, you turn the nose to face the wind. And when you use it the right way, the resistance will help you to rise.

Now, I wanted to back up to that because when we get to fear, and fear is a normal thing for all of us to experience, right? It's completely normal. Every single one of us experiences it. We all go through it at different times right now, maybe even more than most. But anytime we face fear, you just have to understand that fear is just another form of resistance. And you remember what you do on takeoff with resistance. You do the same thing with fear. You turn towards it and you fly directly through it.

You've got to take a wave straight on. You've got to take fear straight on. And when you fly directly into the resistance, it will help elevate that aircraft. It will help you rise. So that can be a hard thing to do, but the absolutely wrong thing to do with fear is to try to turn away from it, to try to not pay attention, to try to deflect it in some way. It doesn't make it go away any more than that box on the shelf, right? We have to be willing to turn towards it and fly directly through it.

Awesome. That was a value bomb right there. There you go. There you go. Boom. I love the analogy of the wind and flying into the wind, right? Like not trying to avoid it because you can't. And I was thinking about how fear is something, right, that we all experience. I don't think we ever want to eliminate the fear because we did, you know, we would make, be making really unsafe choices right now during this time period, right? If we were going to eliminate it, but I like the idea of, you know, it is a form of resistance and it's like, okay, kind of this idea of flying directly into it and not letting it stop you. Yes. You've got to, you've got to turn towards it. You have to define it. I ask people actually to write it down, like write down, write down specifically what it is that, that is, that you're afraid of and write down the implications of what you're afraid of. And first of all, that act by itself takes some of the power out of it, right? It takes some of this

unknown, scary stuff out of it. And then you start to do the same things you do with hard things. This is what grit is about, right? Is taking one step forward, just one action. Maybe it's one action a day and writing that down. And I think that action by itself, taking an action, owning the agency to do something in the face of that and in, in the direction of it is, is absolutely critical and, and, and will take you farther than you can ever imagine. So awesome. Shannon, when you think about, I know you talk a lot about grit and leadership together. Tell us a little bit about how do you think that leaders can develop grit

like within their team? That, what a great question, because that is something that is, is something that we all need to do, right? And maybe especially now. I think some of the same steps that are, I outline in the grit factor and in the training that the Grit Institute, which is going for grit, which are for an individual, work for a team as well. And as a leader, and I would actually take teams through that training, by the way, because I think taking that training together helps you to build that vocabulary and those muscles together. And that allows you to then take that forward into whatever the challenges might be. But I would also say that the other reason that it's such a great opportunity is that

I just heard this the other day, actually, that there are studies are showing that if you as an individual are standing by yourself looking at a mountain, it looks 20% steeper than if you're standing next to somebody else. And I think there's power in addressing a challenge as a team. That's where we need our own teams, but where we also can bring our teams together to be able to address the biggest challenges with the drawing on each other's strength, right? Really drawing on that support, that strength, and those individual strengths that we all bring to bear in any kind of a given situation. So I would do actually, I mean, I would take your team through going for grit, honestly. Like I think going through those practices together really does allow you to form as a team. And then when you get to the places, you know, owning your own story, your own core purpose, those are individual

exercises. But sharing that process helps you to strengthen and grow as a team in building those relationships. Then as you get into the learning phase, these are actually team exercises really, right? Like learning how to listen, the art and science of listening, building your resilience. Those can be individual or they can be team-based depending on how it is that you want to focus them. And then what it looks like to build your team. Who should be on your team? Who's not on your team that should be? Whose team should you be on supporting? Because by the way, that's a really important element of success for you and for others. And so those really are about pulling a team together, however it is that you conceive of that. You can do it on your own, but I think it's even much more powerful as a team

to be able to do that. And then I think going through those final exercises in authenticity, in audacity, and in adaptability, those are absolutely great opportunities for your team to take situations and be able to work through those together, to be able to figure out how they would work together, to be able to pivot together, to take a risk together, to really be true to who they are and the values of the organization as well. Yeah. Oh, excellent. So one final question and then we'll wrap up. So I know on the webinar, and you already just mentioned Carol Dweck's word for growth mindset versus fixed mindset.

What's your perspective on how that is connected with grit? I mean, I think it's integrally connected. I think they cannot be separated. And that is where mindset, and I have this in the learning phase really in terms of the specific exercises that build on this, but where mindset is utterly critical to being able to move through things. I think you could probably gut through, you know, mile 23 of the marathon or the, you know, the one hour and the driving rain. You can kind of gut through that maybe without that mindset, but you're not going to get much further than that. And that's where Angela Duckworth's definition of the long-term goal and my dogged determination in the face of difficult circumstances extended, right, to something even intermediate term. To go more

than just in the moment, you've got to have a mindset that it's going to make you stronger, or it will just wear you down. And ultimately, it's not sustainable. And I think when you're looking at leadership and you're looking at grit, there is the in the moment grit that you need to have, right? That you need to find. Most of us can find that actually, if we're right in the moment, most of us will access that. But what makes that sustainable in the longterm, right? And what makes that sustainable in the longterm is the mindset that it will make you better. It will make you stronger. It will allow you to contribute more meaningfully. And ultimately, that goes back to the purpose piece too, right? And so that mindset is utterly critical for grit

to be sustainable, for leadership to be sustainable. Awesome. Shannon, I love talking with you today. How fun was this? For people, they can head over to the Grit Institute and that's where they can find your training going for grit. Your book, The Grit Factor, comes out just in a few months. And I know people can order that right now. I've already ordered my own copy, by the way. Oh, thank you.

Fanta, yes, your orders are great. Yeah, exactly. Helps you get higher on the bestseller list. I know that. But you can go to your website to find that. Give us a little insight on where we can find you and then where you are on social. Yeah, great. I'm at ShannonPoulson.com and my last name is P-O-L-S-O-N. So ShannonPoulson.com, TheGritInstitute.com. Those are the two websites. You can find me on social at Facebook forward slash Shannon Huffman Polson, on Twitter at A Border

Life, on Instagram at A Border Life, and on LinkedIn at Shannon H. Polson. And I'd love to see you in any of those places. Awesome. So Shannon, I really enjoyed talking with you today. Here is what I learned, okay? The things I've taken from today. And I always try to finish this with a summary so people can, if they haven'm taking from today, and I always try to finish this with a summary, so people can, if they haven't been taking notes, they can go back and jot them down now as we're ending, so I liked your three components, or three stages, I think you said, like commit, learn, and launch, and just the different areas that are in there, and I thought what was most fascinating is this idea of like owning your story, that it's, you know, owning your story in the past and maybe even doing like a lifeline exercise and thinking about your purpose, but also like continuing to own your story. And I really enjoyed your actual stories to help us learn through your personal experience, and just how you took this like watch me mentality

that you went forward and did it anyway, and I think that's part of grit. You talked about failure is not meeting your expectations, but compartmentalizing it and putting in that box so you could think about it later, but that it didn't impact you in the moment, and that fear is something that actually is just another form of resistance, sort of like wind. And we can, we need to move towards that, not let it stop us. So just doing something a little bit easy, right? Like one thing that's fearful every day, maybe keeping track of it, like you said, or define what that is so that we can kind of get it out of our mind and on paper. I also really liked this idea of the grit spiral.

I thought that was really cool. And just like what that means for us. And we really have to take care of ourselves first and foremost. So Shannon, I'm grateful that you've been on the podcast today. What an honor. And I'm so grateful that our paths have crossed. Sindra, I'm so grateful to be connected. And it's just fabulous to talk to another

grit lover and practitioner. So thank you so much for your time and the great conversation. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe

and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A dot com.

See you next week.