High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 398: Building Team Culture and Committing to the Now with Dr. Jeni Shannon, Director of Mental Health and Performance Psychology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Dr. Jeni Shannon serves as the Director of the Carolina Athletics Mental Health and Performance Psychology Program. She is a Counseling and Sport Psychologist within the UNC Department of Sports Medicine, providing performance enhancement and psychological services to UNC student-athletes.   Shannon meets with individual student-athletes on a one-on-one basis and also works with teams to offer comprehensive and integrated mental health and performance psychology support. Additionally, she collaborates with other Athletic Department staffers to educate student-athletes on a range of topics related to mental health, well-being and optimal performance.      A native of Phoenix, Ariz., Shannon earned both a master’s and a doctorate in counseling psychology with an emphasis in sport psychology at the University of Missouri. She also completed a pre-doctoral internship and a post-doctoral fellowship, both with a specialty in sport psychology, at the University of California, Davis.   She is a licensed psychologist, a Certified Consultant with AASP and a member of the USOC Sport Psychology Registry. She also serves on the advisory board for the Collegiate Clinical/Counseling Sport Psychology Association.   Shannon and her husband, Eric, live in Cary, N.C., with their son, Oliver, and daughter, Ivy.   In this episode, Jeni and Cindra talk about: Why committing to action under pressure is important for high performance How to train yourself to be in the present more often 3 strategies you can use to build team culture in sport and business How we can use our values to guide our decision making Why failure is a teacher HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/398 HOW TO ENTER THE PODCAST GIVEAWAY TO WIN $500 CASH: www.drcindra.com/giveaway FB COMMUNITY FOR THE HPM PODCAST: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2599776723457390/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best so you can accomplish all your goals and dreams. So I'm over here following my big dreams and I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Ms. Pac-Man.

Yes, the 1980s game Ms. Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the high performance mindset. Welcome to episode 398 with Dr. Jenny Shannon. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today. Happy New Year. Way to start 2021 with a bang, ready to work on your mindset and learn from some of the world's best. I'm really excited about 2021, and I loved every moment of my conversation with Jenny Shannon. What a great way to start the new year. Now let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Shannon before we jump into the interview. She serves as the director of the Carolina Athletics Mental Health and Performance Psychology Program. She's a

counseling and sports psychologist within the UNC Department of Sports Medicine, where she provides performance enhancement and psychological services to the student athletes there at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She works one-on-one with the student athletes, as well as she works with teams to offer comprehensive and integrated mental health and performance psychology support. She's a native of Phoenix, Arizona, and she earned both her master's and doctorate in counseling psychology with anate in counseling psychology with an emphasis in sports psychology from the University of Missouri. She is a licensed psychologist, a certified consultant with the Association for Applied Sports Psychology,

and also a member of the USOC Sports Psychology Registry. And in this episode, Dr. Jenny and I talk about why committing to action under pressure is essential for high performance, how you can train your mind to be in the present more often. She describes three strategies that you can use to build team culture that could be applied to sport, business, or your family, how we can use our values to guide our decision making, and why failure is a teacher. Now, if you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to provide a rating and review. Please do so if you haven't already. This just helps us reach more and more people each and every week. And also think about a friend as you're listening to this episode. Maybe it's a coach or a leader

or a good friend that you're thinking about. Take a screenshot, share it with them. Or you could also share it with us on social media. Tell us what you enjoyed about the podcast, what you got from the episode. You can reach Dr. Shannon and I on every social media platform. On Twitter, for example, I'm at mentally underscore strong

and Instagram and everywhere else, I'm at Mentally underscore Strong and Instagram and everywhere else, I'm at Cyndra Campoff. We'd love to hear from you. Let's get on with the episode. Here is Jenny Shannon. Dr. Jenny Shannon, thank you so much for joining us there from North Carolina. How are you doing today? I'm doing pretty well, winding down the semester. Semester's over, but winding down for winter break and looking forward to a few days off. I know, I am too. I would love to just have you share with the people who are listening a little bit about your journey and how you got to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Yeah, absolutely. So I was a competitive gymnast. That's my sport background

and had plans to walk on in college and unfortunately ended up injured. So it was an injury I wasn't able to come back for, never got to compete in college at all. And so that kind of shifted a little bit of a plan, a lot of plans for me. And I actually ended up coaching, coaching club gymnastics while I was in college. I was a psychology major, but had no idea what I wanted to do with it. I, as a gymnast was one of those kind of headcase, like mental blocks and balking and all that stuff. My like almost entire career, I was a mess. So wish I would have known a lot of this, um, at that time, but then the injury was really challenging for me to deal with emotionally. And then when I was coaching, seeing it from that

angle and seeing kind of what my athletes went through and, um, wanting to help them, but not having all the tools. Um, but I didn't know that sports psychology was a thing at the time. I got really, really lucky. I was at the University of Arizona and this name will mean something to you, but maybe not other people. But I ended up taking a class with Jean Williams, who is one of the most amazing women in our field. I had no idea who she was. The class was called Psychology of Excellence. It fit my schedule. I was like, yay, why not? First day I learned that sports psychology was a thing and it was just this like amazing moment of, oh, okay, well that's what I want to do with my life. So yeah, it was, it was just amazing. And being the nerd that I was, I like ran down after the lecture and introduced myself to her and asked if I could learn more about sports psychology.

And it was just like the most wonderful coincidence because I got connected with her. I worked in her lab for three years. She mentored me. And that really set me on the path. Once I knew sports psychology was a thing, it was like I never looked back. So that's how I got into the field in the first place, which, again, I just feel super lucky that all those things lined up to get me in that random class that day. That's awesome. And if you don't know, she has written like a classic book in sports psychology that is one of my go-tos whenever I have a question or need refreshing. It's like, OK, what is Jean Williams book say?

Exactly, exactly. And that was the book of my class. So, yeah, it was an amazing experience. So I ended up doing both my master's and doctorate at the University of Missouri, counseling sports psychology, or sorry, counseling psychology with a sports psychology emphasis. And was really lucky that my program allowed me to get like right into the athletic department. I was working hands-on with teams and athletes throughout the whole time there. And so got a lot of really great performance psychology experience. And then also a really, really strong kind of mental health counseling background, which I really enjoyed having both parts because so often they overlap or people are willing to come in for performance, but there's really some mental health components. Just gave me an ability

to work from all angles, which I really enjoyed. And then I did my internship and postdoc at UC Davis, kind of similarly with Counseling Center and Athletic Department. Worked at a Division II school in Colorado for a little while. Regis University. Did a private practice while I was there. And then got an opportunity to come out to North Carolina to work part-time at UNC as a contract provider. And with existing private practice here with Dr. Bradley Hack. I loved UNC. I loved working in this athletic department. I've always loved being part of a system. And so when the opportunity for a full-time position came about, I was really

excited for it and was fortunate enough to get it. And I've been in that role for a little over three years now. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much for describing a little bit about your journey. I think that helps people just better understand your experiences that you come with. So now that you're at Chapel Hill, tell us a bit about how would you describe your philosophy of applied work in general? Yeah, it's probably my favorite part of my job is getting to do that applied work. And I'm lucky I get to do it with both individuals and teams.

And while it might look different in some ways, I think some really common underpinnings. I really work a lot from kind of an acceptance and commitment and mindfulness acceptance commitment approach. So meaning a lot of my emphasis is very present moment focus, like I'm very focused on process and very focused on helping athletes kind of ground themselves in, in the moment, putting their focus on where it needs to be right then and there. The acceptance part of that.

And often means that they have to accept that they feel some sort of way or are thinking some sort of thing and kind of direct that focus to right here, right now. And then when the next thing comes up, adjust that to what's most important right here, right now. The other parts of that, of my philosophy that I really lean on are values-based approaches. With both my teams and individuals, there's rarely a session or a conversation that doesn't come back to values in some way to really identify what are those core values for you as an individual or you as a team? How are we acting in line with those rather than the emotions or the thoughts that may sometimes pull us away from those? I really believe they serve as kind of our compass that tells us what to do in the hard moments, that tells us how to do the harder thing when that's in front of us.

And so that can be incredibly valuable for high-level athletes and people in high-pressure situations is to always have that to come back to you, to always kind of have that consistency of choosing action based on your values. You know, being able to feel any sort of way and still commit to action, still commit to what you need to do to execute. And so that's kind of that committed action piece that you literally can feel any sort of way and still commit to action. You know, I think with that comes the ability to accept your thoughts, accept your feelings, accept everything and keep moving forward. I always like to tell athletes or teams, like, don't believe everything you think. Like, that's one of those things we can

come back to. The example I give, and I love this one, is I'll ask my athletes, like, how many times have you had the thought in the middle of a really, really hard workout? I'm going to die without fail. Everyone's like, yep. And then I asked them like, have you died yet? And if they're talking with me, obviously they have not. And so we use that as an example of like, you can think anything, feel anything. And while you might not be able to control what pops up, you have the ability to redirect your focus to the moment, to those values, directed actions, and work from there. Awesome. Thank you, Jenny. Let's kind of dive into that a little bit more. And I'm thinking about the application. And first of all, there's so many ways that people can use what you just said. And I'm thinking about

right now, during the pandemic, where sport has been impacted, been impacted, holiday plans have been impacted, you know, like, I've been with my parents for 40 some years at Christmas. I will not be with them this year. Right. So there's a lot of like guilt and sadness and all that comes with that. Maybe you're a business owner who's struggling, you know, with their business right now. So how would you suggest, you know, these various people use what you just said and specifically, you know, these principles related to act. Yeah. Oh, it's so true. I mean, we're, we're all in, in the same swirl of confusion with this right now. And so I think a really important part of it is starting with like the acknowledgement

of what you're feeling and the kind of compassion for it. Like whatever we're feeling right now makes sense. We don't do ourselves any good beating ourselves up over it. Like we're, we're all feeling stuff for a reason. So I think this kind of acknowledgement of what's there is, is really, really critical. And then an acceptance of it, like it's not right or wrong. It just is, you know, this acceptance of, it makes sense that I feel this sort of way. Like, of course, I feel this way with all of this. And then I think we can kind of shift our focus, our energy to maybe some of the more values based off or committed action. Like, for example, really getting clear on what your core values are, because even if the action with it looks different when you can come back to I choose what I do based on these values not based on my sadness not based on my guilt not based on

my fear but I choose it based on my values that can be really helpful you know example for myself connection is one of my core values and I am so zoomed out so much of the time and like tired, maybe from a whole day of talking to people, but it's like those moments I feel most drained are probably the moments I need my own connection really well so I can either check out and scroll on social media, or I can have a committed action of like, okay, I'm going to have an engaged present conversation with my husband when I get home. But I've got to go through this process of being like, oh, I feel so drained. And then have a moment of like, yeah, of course you do. It was a really long day and telehealth is hard. And then say, okay, what would my value of connection tell me to do? All right. I can feel drained and I can connect, you know, and I know that is, that's congruent for me that aligns

with my values. And so I'm going to feel better about what I did with my time and I'm going to get what I need, even if it's the harder thing in the moment. So I think for folks to, you know, I think about this process, I use this with performance a lot too, of like acknowledge, accept, adapt, the three A's of acknowledge, accept, adapt. And I think kind of going through it with something like this works too. I feel some sort of way, it's okay that I do. And what am I going to do with my energy or my focus? And specifically in line with my values or related to being focused in the present moment? You know, how do I kind of acknowledge that I am really exhausted, but be present with my kids, because that's really important to me. All right, let me get down on the floor and like, just

observe what they're doing. Be curious, like feel the floor beneath me, listen to their sounds, just observe what's going on. And so I think we can find a lot of ways to do that right now. Yeah, that's beautiful. Really clear examples of how you could do it and how you could use some of these principles. So give us a sense of this acknowledgement that you see and people using these principles. How do you see that it helps athletes perform better or people perform better in general? What do you see the benefits are? Well, I think the benefits are it frees you up to do something and to do something that lines up with what matters to you. We can get so easily stuck in. I shouldn't feel this way. I can't feel this way.

Oh my gosh. That just takes so much energy. Like think about the energy that goes into fighting something that's there. Like we didn't choose it. Like none of us choose to feel crappy. I don't, you know, but, but we do sometimes. And so what I've seen with the athletes is when they can buy into this idea, which sometimes it's hard, it's a little bit different for a lot of athletes, but when they do, it's just freeing. I think that's the best way I can describe it because you, you really learn that you can feel anything and commit to action that lines up with what matters. Um, and it's a lot of like holding both is the way I phrase it. Sure.

It's often like, we can do this even physically, like you can feel sore and really commit to pushing off, you know, you can feel exhausted. And like in that moment, you can't change how much sleep you got. You can feel exhausted and focus on, you know, getting to that spot on the field, whatever it might be, we can hold both, but we've got to start by acknowledging what what's there, whether it's physical, whether it's emotional, whether it's mental, like we can name it. And, you know, there's a saying about name it to tame it. And I think that's so true. Like we take some power away from it when we say like, okay, this is here. I know it's here. Doesn't mean I have to let it dictate what happens. I can acknowledge that it's

here. I can allow it to be here and I can put all my attention and energy on the next right thing, the present moment, my action that's based in my values. Like it can be there and I can shift my focus. I can shift my energy to right here, right now, the next most important thing. And then I shift it to the next most important thing and then I shift it to the next most important thing even while all that other stuff might be kind of in my periphery. I was reading Jenny a study yesterday about comparing like this act-based approach to worry and worrying thoughts like thoughts that kind of lead to worry over time versus more of a cognitive behavioral approach.

And this was more effective, right? Just like naming the thought, accepting it, or you're naming the emotion, accepting it, not fighting it. And I'm thinking about, especially for athletes who feel a lot of nervousness before competition or feel a lot of pressure, or maybe for us, you know, who aren't athletes or competitive athlete, at least I would say I'm an athlete, but I'm not competing right now. I can use this when I'm like overwhelmed with the moment or overwhelmed by negative news or, you know, the things that maybe happen right now during the holiday season with all of us. Absolutely. And I encourage

everyone to just experiment with it. Like it sounds counterintuitive. Like if I name it, it's going to get bigger, but the opposite happens. I mean, if you think about fighting this stuff, you're putting energy into the thing you don't want to be there. And so by just naming it and allowing it while focusing on what's more important or what's present, it just makes such a difference. And you're totally right in how that can look with all our present moment challenges.

Exactly. So give us a sense for people who are listening, who are like, I don't really know what my values are. How might you help one of your clients or a team be able to determine what their values are so they even know, you you know how to act based on their values yeah so I you know I think there's a lot of different ways to do and it kind of depends on how you learn and how you like to sort through things um you know there are lists like a value words and there's like values I have like a values card sort that they just each card has a values

word on it and I'll have people like narrow it down. So sometimes that's helpful just to like get a sense of when we say values, what does that actually mean? Because it's different than goals. It's not where we're trying to be. It's kind of like, how do we get there? What is our compass? What determines how we make choices? And so I think sometimes looking at those as a starting place, just to start to wrap your head around it. For some people, then like keeping with that and like breaking it down, like crossing off the stuff you know doesn't matter. And then starting to go through like, okay, what really matters and continuing to break it down and narrow it down until you get to like three-ish core values.

And it doesn't mean the other ones don't matter. It just means these are the ones that you absolutely want to be the way you make decisions, the things that guide you. So I think that's one way. The other way, if you're maybe wanting to be a little bit less concrete with it is thinking back to times you felt really satisfied with kind of how you've moved through tough situations or points in your life where it's felt like you really were being the person you wanted to be and acting in a way you wanted to act in and and thinking back like what was driving those actions like what was kind of some of the consistent pieces in terms of how you made decisions or how you acted or what drove you forward I think doing some of that reflection can sometimes

reveal the values. And then similarly projecting ahead. If you think about like, where do I want to be? Asking yourself, what is going to get me there? With the teams I work with, we revisit core values every year because each team and each set of challenges might need a slightly different set of values. I think for individuals, they tend to be a little more like pervasive, but for teams is this kind of living, breathing, changing culture. We need to kind of see, okay, with this group of people and with this set of goals, what are going to be kind of the core things we want to act on? So, you know, I think, again,

looking through those lists and just narrowing down, reflecting back or kind of projecting forward are all different ways to get at the kind of question of what's most important and how do you want to make your decisions? How do you want to choose your actions? Oh, so good. I love all the various ways and strategies that you just gave us to consider. And I'm thinking about, you know, starting the new year, right. And even considering what are some of your values that you want guiding you for the year. I did that last year about this time, Jenny, and I actually have a grit board on my, right by my office framed over here. My three values, which is like love, um, courage. And then the last one is contribution. So that's what I wanted to guide my, my work is like, okay, how can I be courageous

this year? How can I contribute? But how can I show love and warmth? And then I wrote some, what I called away values. And those are just values that I didn't want to live by, or I maybe experienced them, but I didn't want them guiding me. And so mine are like not seeing my value. I don't really know if that's a value. Sure, yeah. Comparison, judgment. So that helped me kind of acknowledge like how I don't want to feel or what I don't want to be. So just the idea of that.

I might feel judgment or comparison sometimes, but not kind of not giving into that. I love that. That's such a cool spin on it. And it makes me think about some of the way to kind of deepen the value sometimes is one of the things I'll ask my teams to do a lot of times, kind of along those lines is with their core values, think about like, okay, what are the actions that show you you're moving towards your values? And what are the actions that show you you're moving away? And I think that identification is a little different, but related to what you mentioned, that ability to catch it when you're slipping away from your values is so important. And so I think it's really, really critical to know what that looks like. So you can not only like choose the actions that line up, but notice, cause we all slip, but to be like

really attuned to, oh, I am, I'm getting away from my values. How do I kind of get back on track? Yeah. So powerful. So I encourage people to think about how they might do that at the beginning of the year, like list their values and then what actions will help you experience those values more often and what would not. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yep. I'm with you. I don't set resolutions. I set intentions and I try to have them be really values-based. Yeah, that's great. Great suggestion. So we've been talking, Jenny, a lot about kind of present moment focus and why, you know, that's important and to label and acknowledge these emotions and getting our attention back to the present. Tell us from your perspective, like why that is so important, just this present moment focus. And I can kind of share some of my thoughts but wow how would you describe to a performer why that's essential? Well I think most performers have experienced this when we ask about think about your your peak performance think about the time you were best like what were you thinking about the vast majority of them either the answer is nothing or it's something really like in that moment, task oriented. Like I was

thinking about, you know, some technique or mechanics or some sort of thing, and usually not even thinking about it, but like present with it. I think that sometimes it's a little bit of a distinction. Like I'm maybe not cognitively telling myself, you know, lift my elbow or release here, but I'm feeling it while I'm doing it. And so I think most athletes recognize that where they get into trouble is overthinking where they get into trouble is being in the past or the future. And so I've yet to find a performer that doesn't do their best in the present moment. Because when we're there, all our energy is in what we're doing right now, as opposed to some of our energy being in the past, in the future, and taking away from what we need to do right here, right

now. And so I think most athletes, most performers of any kind can relate to this. So it allows us to do what we've trained to do. It lets us get out of our own way and let our bodies or our, our minds, you know, depending on what type of performing, let out all that training we've been putting in. And so I I'm really big sometimes on connecting more for athletes with like the kinesthetic side, like just be in your body, like don't necessarily tell yourself what you need to do, but feel what you need to do while you're doing it. Like commit to the feel that works for you. And again, I think it just comes back to, we get out of our own way. And

when we're right here right now, we are tending to do the things that work best, but we're also more able to react and respond quickly because we don't have to like stop thinking about something. We can just take it in and shift with what we need to do. We're just so much more able to do that. And in some sports, that's, that's the difference maker right there. The decision-making that happens at its best when you're present, as opposed to in your head. Yes. Yeah. And you know, what you just said about commit to the feeling that works for you. I think that's really powerful in terms of when I'm thinking about like even ways I perform, if I'm speaking on stage and if I focus on how do I want to feel today, maybe inspired or courageous. You know, that's very different. I show up very differently. So, yeah, I think that's very different. I show up very differently. So yeah, I think that's really powerful. And I'm thinking about how really the present moment, I think is the only place we can be at our best.

I've never heard of anybody saying, oh, I experienced flow by thinking about the past. Right. When I was ruminating on last, the last game, the last inning, like, no, never happened. No. Right. Or I'm worried about what coach is going to say when I get back to the bench, like no one performs at their best. No, no, no. So good. What are ways do you think, or what would you suggest to a performer who wants to learn actually how to do that? What would you suggest that they might do to get, just train their mind to be more in the present? Yeah, there's so many awesome ways to do it. I think, you know, mindfulness meditation is one that's, you know,

very popular right now. And there's a million different apps like Headspace and Calm and some other ones. So that's a great foundation that's pretty accessible to most of us in terms of learning more traditional mindfulness meditation, which has us kind of present with our breath, being able to notice thoughts and let them go. So definitely encourage everyone who's interested to try that out to get a feel for it. And ideally engage in like a more intensive mindfulness practice. There's really cool research about how that changes our brain, like the actual structure of our brain, and makes a really big difference for not only performing,

but just everyday life with happiness, well-being, reduction in stress, and all of that. So that's one, but I think some more applied ways to do it are incorporating it into your everyday life. And so some of the suggestions I tend to give my athletes is mindful walk. So you've got to walk on campus in normal life or virtual right now, but in normal life, you have to walk across campus. And so most of the time they're thinking about what's the next thing I need to do, or they're on their phones or whatever it might be. So I tell them like, put your phone away, take your headphones out. And from walking from this building to the next building, just notice, notice all the senses,

notice everything going on. Like feel the ground beneath you, feel the sun on your skin, hear people talking without actually like tuning into it, watch the leaves falling off the tree, like spend that walk being present, noticing, and your mind's going to wander that always does. It's what our minds do, but use that as an opportunity to notice when it does, and then redirect back to that next step

where your foot makes contact, redirect to that sound of that leaf you just crunched, like take that walk, which you have to do anyways. This is not adding time to your day, but instead of it being a mindless walk, let it be a mindful walk and train that focus of just being. Or we'll talk about something like when you take a shower, again, you have to do it. You can't really do anything else while you're doing it. You can think about things, but you can't actually do anything. So for that time you're in the shower, feel the water pressure, feel the temperature, you know, smell your soap, like be present. And

when that mind wanders, just bring it back. So these are really good, like everyday ways to train that ability to be present and be focused. So I like those because they don't take any extra time for us. Yeah. And they're really practical. Yes. Yeah.

And I think about how many times I'm at, I think that I'm, you know, practice mindfulness, at least that's my intention, but there's still so many times throughout my day that I'm mindless, you know, especially when you're saying in the shower, I'm like, Oh, I've taken mindful walks and then mindful eating, but I haven't done a mindful shower. It's awesome. I highly recommend it, you know, and then for athletes, I think one of the like next steps of training this is to bring it into the stuff you tend to do mindlessly in sports. So I will tell my athletes and teams all the time, like put this

in your warmup or you're stretching or something else that you just go through the motions. Like most of the teams we work with, you do the same exact warmup no matter what, but most of them do it really kind of mindlessly going through the motion. So if you start on that, like first jog, instead of just doing it, like feel your feet, make contact, feel how your knee lifts when you're stretching. If you are feeling that kind of stretching your hamstring, you know, like tuning into your body, you do all the time, but you really get curious and present and notice how your body feels when you are doing these very, very basic things. That's an amazing way to train it. Or like in the weight room, like I work really closely with some of our strength and conditioning coaches to incorporate these concepts. And that's something we talk about, like how do we get them to be really focused on what they're doing while they're doing it

in some of these types of repetitive activities. And with something like lifting, there's an added benefit if they're likely to do it better and get more out of it, just like once we perform on the field. But I think building up to that and training that skill

of being present with those types of things makes a really, really big difference and then applying it to pressure moments and intense situations. Yeah. And I could see when we practice it throughout our day, right? That just, that it's more like who we become. For sure. That we're doing it as we perform and only as, you know, in our, in our performance, whatever that is, if it's on the field or in our job or in our business. Absolutely. So Jenny, tell us a bit about the work that you do with teams and maybe let's just get started there and then I can, we can kind of dive into that deeper. Yeah. I love my teamwork. It's so much fun. It, you know,

I obviously love working with individuals too, but the dynamic of a team is really fun to work with. And I'm super fortunate here at UNC. We've got really high caliber teams to work with and amazing coaches that I have learned so much from. So it's just the environment's exciting. What the teamwork that I think is best and that I enjoy the most is the consistent teamwork. So I have a number of teams here that I meet with really, really regularly, either weekly or every other week, which if you know the world of collegiate athletics, where there's limits on hours to have a coach give you any consistent time is incredible. And so these coaches have done a really nice job of demonstrating the value of sports psychology by making it a consistent part of training.

And so my work with teams tends to be a mix of kind of team culture, team dynamics work and because I really genuinely believe that's such a difference maker at this level, that the teams that have that foundation can push each other more, can work harder, can put themselves out there more. And so we invest a lot on the front end on building that culture in a few different ways. You know, goal setting values work and connection work. I think it's really important that teams learn to be vulnerable with each other, that they learn to really know each other as human beings, and that they develop authentic ways of communicating with each other. So we do a lot of that on the front end and then kind of shift more into the performance work after that. And I try, you know, it looks lots of different ways depending on the team, but I tend to be very, very discussion-based. I always want my teams talking to each other. These athletes are together all the time, but they rarely actually

get to talk as a team without someone talking at them. And so I find that whether it's team culture or performance stuff, like giving them that space has just been so valuable and they come up with awesome stuff. And I'm just like, I just feel lucky to be a part of it. So that's great. Yeah. And I'm thinking about all the teams that have been really successful there that you work with. So that's really great. You know, I just had a conversation last week with a coach actually, he was asking me kind of similar questions, you know, how do you develop, she called it a championship culture. And, but I think it's also like a healthy team culture, right? That's kind of focused on high performance. So what, what are some strategies you might give,

let's say a coach or a leader? Cause I think we also develop culture within our business, within our family, right? So what are some strategies you could give us, Jenny, that would kind of help us consider that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things I love about this work is the applicability to so many different areas. And definitely, I think what works in a collegiate team can work in so many other settings. So if I think about kind of three really key pieces, and one I've already spoken about, like rally around values. Like, you know, I think teams really have to get clear on who they are. So values is the way I like to really dig into that and create this kind of collective identity based not just on a goal, but on the, like, who are we, what matters to us and what are we going to do every single day? And then teams get to use that as a compass for themselves. And I think that's such a key part of culture because

that creates consistency. I, when I work with teams on values, we incorporate them into everything and they're not just nice, fluffy words. Like we really break it down to what does that look like? What are the actions? How do, how do we see this show up every day? You know, I'll ask teams all the time, like, okay, if I go to practice tomorrow, what am I going to see that I could be like, oh, there's your value. Like show me, it's one thing if we say it, but we need to show it and live it and breathe it. And so I think when teams buy into this and really embrace it, that just makes such a kind of pillar of their culture because it is something that ties everyone together because we're all kind of bringing the same, we're valuing the same things and we're working

from the same understanding. And it creates a consistency in how we move through everything we do, that it's always coming back to these values. And there are things that teammates can reference with each other that it's, you know, if we need to kind of like call someone out or call someone in that we can have it be based on values and it doesn't have to feel personal. It's like, hey, we as a team said this matters. Right. What's happening isn't lining up with that.

Like, what do we need to do to get back around this? And it's kind of a non-threatening way, I think, to keep coming back to center, to have that consistent piece for teams. So identify values, clarify values, incorporate them into everything, reference them all the time. So that's one piece I would think about. That's great. I think that I'm just thinking about the teams that I work with. And it's like, I think some teams do have pretty clear values, whereas maybe other teams don't. So, and we can incorporate this into, again, to our work or maybe even our family as well. Definitely.

Yeah. And then I think another step is like developing a real connection. And when I say a real connection, I don't just mean like, you know, play some getting to know you games or like go have dinner together like that can be. But I really like for teams to be vulnerable with each other. I think that is such a key. And I'm a big fan of Brene Brown's work and buy into the idea of vulnerability as courage. And we want courageous teams. And I think we need vulnerability as a team to do that. I really encourage coaches to foster this by having them really get to know each other, like learn about their lives outside of sport, give them opportunities to connect, ask them questions that challenge them, you know, to,

to like open up with each other, create space for that in some of your team bonding stuff and make it real model it yourself as a coach so they can see that and then from a more sport perspective really making space for athletes to connect around like their why their purpose their passion that if you like really get underneath the surface can be very vulnerable for people but we've got to create the space that they can dig into it. It can't just be a surface level, like, okay, why are you doing this? Like, we've got to really unpack it a little bit and create environments where they can open up and create environments where they can talk to each other about why. And then this creates something bigger than themselves that they want to fight for because they're talk to each other about why. And then this creates something bigger than themselves

that they want to fight for because they're fighting for each other. They're connected with each other. They see each other as like these real human beings that they care about. And then I think this kind of foundation then allows for hard conversations. It allows for more kind of work around mistakes and failure and problems and all the tough stuff we run into, but we've really got to build this, this foundation of connection and vulnerability. So although sometimes coaches don't want to take time away from like the X's and O's and the physical training, I think there's a lot of value in investing in that, creating that connection and vulnerability and authenticity with your team on the front end. Yeah. So powerful. I'm thinking about a story that

I read about Clemson football, and I don't know if they do this in the off season or when exactly they do this, but I'm guessing it's probably in the off season where it's like this hot seat where a player goes on and they hear like a really difficult moment they had in their life so that people can connect with them. And I'm thinking about, wow, for, I have to feel safe and secure to even share. Right. So it's like creating part of that acceptance of each other, regardless of the tough things that we've gone through, or what I might describe as like a crucible moment, right? That led you where you are today. For sure. Yeah.

And you make such a good point that kind of leads to the third part I was going to mention about safety. Like, I think the other thing coaches absolutely have to do is create psychological safety. There's been a lot of research like from the business world, like Google did like a huge study about psychological safety

and what a difference maker that was in successful teams and innovation. And this applies to sport in a really big way. And when it comes down to it, like coaches are the environmental engineer coaches create that environment that allows, that gives it an opportunity or not in so many ways. Like, yes, our athletes have to be the ones that like really go with it and foster it, but coaches have to create it from the beginning. And so some of the ways they think about creating psychological safety. And what I mean by that is creating spaces where athletes or performers or whoever feel like they can speak up, they can give input, they can make mistakes, they can ask for help and feedback. It's kind of like I can put

whatever out there and I know I'm okay. I know we're okay. I know my team is still there and has my back. And when this happens, what a difference it makes when people aren't acting out of fear or aren't holding back because of fear, but are willing to put themselves out there, whether it's with ideas or opinions, with kind of speaking to difficult dynamics that are happening that are maybe problematic or like physically taking risks in their sport that, you know, tend to lead to really big outcomes. And so creating an environment that allows for that kind of stuff. That's what I mean by psychological safety. And I think some of the ways that happens that coaches can influence is creating team norms as part of it, that like on this team, everyone has a voice. You know, on this team, we, we own mistakes. Like one of the teams I work with, for example, one of the norms is when you make a

mistake, you put your hand up, like to just show, like, I got like owning it, you know, that was my bad. And, you know, that's created a really cool culture around like ownership, but then also the ability to kind of come back to that person later and give some feedback because you know, they know, and it's not a big deal. We're just all trying to get better. You know, we're all working for the same stuff. And so creating team norms around that type of thing, like everyone has a voice, how do we handle mistakes? How do we give feedback? How do we communicate like that? So we all are on the same page takes practice and we're all going to screw up and not do it. But for coaches to work with their teams to create those norms are really helpful. I think another part of creating the psychological safety is half the hard conversations. We tend to shy away from it because we don't want to

stir it up more or we're just hoping it goes away, but being able to name conflict and address it and address it when it's small, rather than when it's floating, even if it's off the field stuff, like it can come right on. And so I really encourage coaches to make that part of their practice, you know, or bring a sports psychologist in if you want someone from the outside, but have the hard conversations and have the athletes have the hard conversations. That's where that foundation of connection and vulnerability helps because we know we can, and we still love each other. We're still there for each other. And then I think for coaches modeling it too, how do you react to mistakes when they happen? You know, that sends a huge message. How do you kind of elicit feedback

from, from your athletes? How do you kind of invite opinions from, you know, all players, like model it, like walk the walk, talk the talk that makes such a difference in a big way. And then when you see your athletes or your performers doing it, well, reinforce it, like the whole catch them doing something, right? Like when you're like, Hey, you, I saw that she owned her mistake and you came up after and gave her feedback. That's awesome. That's what we're about. You know, that just rewards, like not that we're not focused on the mistake, but we're focused on what do we learn?

How do we grow from that? And how do we handle it? So, yeah. So I think that's kind of the third thing I think about all the ways coaches can create psychological safety. So good, Dr. Shannon. Thanks for dropping some good bombs there, knowledge bombs that we're going to call them. And I'm going to put in the show notes,

I think it was a Forbes article that I read, I think about Google and psychological safety, but I'll put some resources in there for people to learn. And I think what you just said about like making mistakes, okay. And that this idea that everybody makes a mistake and paying attention to how we react as a leader to other people's mistakes. So many times when I'm watching TV, right. And I'm, um, or even when I'm at a game, I might see a coach blow up or, you know, the, the whole body language of the team changes when an athlete makes a mistake. So what do you see,

you know, the really good coaches do? Because you've got to watch some of them and be a part of their teams in terms of when an athlete does make a mistake, how do they react? Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, obviously every coach has to find their own style. But I think the ones that I've seen that have been most successful are keeping their own composure, you know, which is hard and takes a lot of practice and a lot of their own work, but when they can keep their own composure and, you know, connect with the athletes around the mistake in terms of, you know, depending on the athlete, like asking them like, okay, what do you think happened out there?

You know, I think creating some of that, like very, like, let's use this as a learning experience. And obviously in the middle of the game, you may not have the time to engage in that. That might be more of a practice situation where you can engage in that. But I think the other thing that happens is telling the athletes what you want to see from that in a constructive way. So often where I see coaches in that kind of blow up moment, they're screaming at the athlete for what already happened. They're telling them they screwed up when they very obviously already know it. I've yet to find an athlete that makes a big mistake and doesn't know they made a big mistake. And so just railing

them about that doesn't get them somewhere. So instead of doing that, helping the athlete kind of see like, hey, here's what you need to do next time. Like help them see what they need to do can be huge. And then it becomes, again, a learning experience. And that's, I think, what mistakes and failure is all about is that kind of teacher about learning experience. And so when coaches can embrace that idea to maintain their own composure and then be able to kind of coach the athlete in that way, not here's what you screwed up and you know,

what the hell were you thinking? But like, okay, that happened. Here's what needs to be different next time. Here's what you need to do. And that also helps the athlete direct their focus to the next right thing to that present moment focus as opposed to being stuck in the mistake that already happened so I think that's probably one of the best responses I do love to have that like back and forth when there's time without a practice or watching film but in the heat of the moment I think the best thing coaches can do is composure to show their own calm and then to direct to like the, here's what you need to do. And I always tell coaches, I tell this to athletes too. It's if you don't do it well, it's always okay to circle back and be like, Hey, so,

you know, heat of the moment, sorry, I blew up. Let's break this down. Let's learn from this. And I think that sends a message too and I really good point of like when you help athletes learn it helps them get back to the present and doing their the direct their their attention back to the next right thing and as I was listening to Dr. Shannon I was thinking about parenting you know and how our kids make mistakes. Or as a business leader, it's like, you know, mistakes happen all the time. So creating that psychological safety is a really excellent point. So one of the things I ask almost everyone on the podcast is to help us get an understanding of how you define failure and tell us about a time that you failed.

So would you describe what failure means to you? So I think I kind of referenced it, but like, I think of failure as a teacher, like that is the biggest thing. Like it's where we find our edge. It's where we learn about the stuff maybe we don't want to learn about. But it like, I have yet to ever experienced failure that hasn't taught me something or work with an athlete where failure isn't a teacher. But my caveat to that is we have to be kind of curious and compassionate with failure

to learn from it. And so I think as I've kind of wrapped my head around failure and what that means in my work and personal life, like that comes right along with it. Like, yes, failure is a teacher, 100%, but only I think if we can allow ourselves to kind of be curious about it and be compassionate with ourselves so we can learn and grow from it. I think about, so I have a one-year-old and she literally just took her first steps the other day. So if there is ever like a model of learning from failure, it is an infant learning how to walk. And like, she has fallen down so many hundreds of times, but she

doesn't beat herself up about it. She doesn't stop trying. She doesn't say, screw it. I'm never going to walk. You can like see the little gears in her brain turning. And the next time she tries something a little different and she balances for one more second before she eats it, you know? And then it's just this, like, it's such a humbling thing to watch kids because you're like, oh, that's what we all need to be doing. And so I think of that as like that quintessential example of like yep keep failing but every time like getting something out of it and getting a teeny tiny bit closer to it so that's my like real life recent example of someone else failing until she got it back in April um I interviewed Jack Canfield on the podcast. So he wrote all those books,

Chicken Soup for the Soul, for sure you've seen. And one of my favorite books called The Success Principles. And he talked about how like fail equals fall. And so kind of the same thing, like all we just need to do is change that third letter instead of an I, it's an L. And it's like, okay, it just means when we fall, we get back up. So I was thinking a lot about your, you know, learning to walk analogy and it's like, just put yourself back up. It's okay. What did you learn by taking this caring and compassionate approach? Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. So a time that I think this came up for me, it was kind of earlier in my career. So it's a professional example. I have so many athletic ones I could get, but we'll go with a professional

example. And it was a little bit earlier in my career. And there was a team I was working with that I just really wanted to impress and connect with and was like really just putting a lot of pressure on myself. And so if this was an example of jumping in without actually knowing enough about the team culture, without really learning the team where I got engaged in this team session and the coaches weren't there and it turned into a lot of complaining and I was trying to facilitate it. Again, like I said before, I'm really discussion based. And so I was trying to facilitate it in a way that everyone felt heard and I could be an advocate for them and I could like help them figure some stuff out. But really I just kind

of got sucked into some drama of it and also didn't know kind of like who was who on the team enough to know, like who were the leaders leaders who were the influencers and what ended up happening were people who were maybe not as well respected or influenced on the team kind of commandeered the session and were you know complaining about things that were maybe perceived a little bit differently by others and I ended up you know I left feeling like yeah everyone got their voice heard and they were feeling good I was like okay I think that was a little bit differently by others. And I ended up, you know, I left feeling like, yeah, everyone got their voice heard and they were feeling good. I was like, okay, I think that was somewhere. And then I got a call from one of the assistant coaches afterwards who had had some of the more experienced older players come to them and say, that did not go well. That was not helpful.

And it was like, I had such a pit in my stomach because all I wanted was to do well with this opportunity. And I, what I learned from it, like it crashed and burned. Like I had to spend a lot of time rebuilding credibility with the coaches and with the players after that, because it just wasn't helpful and it frustrated a lot of the players so what I learned from that was you know one I got to know teams a whole lot better before I start kind of facilitating those kinds of conversations I got to be really oriented to the culture and the dynamics of who's who but it also like brought up my insecurity and my need to be liked and like choosing wanting to be like liked and like joining with them and on their

side over what was actually helpful in the moment so that was such an incredible humbling moment and teaching moment of like okay I need to get grounded in my philosophy about how to approach team sessions not just go in wanting to make them happy. And so I got real clear, real fast on kind of my approach and what mattered to me into the session. So. Thank you so much. And you know what, that same thing happened to me. Right at passage, maybe. Maybe, but it was when I was a doctoral student and so excited. It was a tennis team. I clearly remember actually, even though it was when I was a doctoral student and so excited. It was a tennis team. I clearly remember, actually, even though it was many years ago, I remember the room we were in because it was the same kind of thing. I kind of went into it just kind of trying to, and the coach was really general.

We want to, we need some help team building and we just want somebody to facilitate. And it was the first session I'd ever done with this team. I would never do this now because I learned a ton about what not to do, you know, because I felt the same way. I was like, man, I did not represent the field very, very, very well, but learned a it. And I do remember it so vividly. And like, I think of how long I have that pit in my stomach about bringing it up. But it was like, it just it transformed how I approach team stuff. So I'll take it. failure as a teacher, right? And both what we both learned about this, a similar experience. Before we hit record, we talked a little bit about the teams that you work with. And I know you work with some men's teams there. Tell us about your perception of how you might kind of destigmatize just mental training in general with both men's and women's teams. Yeah, you know, I think the most powerful way to do it is have them talk to each other about it, but you got to get in the door first. And so, you know, I think the coaches

have a huge influence on that. The athletic trainers have a huge influence on that. Like the people around them that they already trust in my experience has made a big, big difference when other people are able to kind of vouch for it and sell it and like say, Hey, this is just as important as your physical training. This is where we get our edge. This is what's going to make us better. That sets the stage. And so that's, that's really big. You know, my experience, the men tend to be a tougher crowd to get in the door and to like be bought in. So it's so, so valuable for someone they already trust to set that stage. And we might not always have that, but in and of itself, if a men's coach is

inviting me in, they have like said, okay, this is important. Like by giving up some of our precious time, this is important. So I try really hard to help them understand like how it's going to give them their edge and to help them understand, like you put all this time in to the physical stuff and, you know, the classic question so many of us ask, like how important do you think the mental training is or the mental part of your game? And they'll all say, you know, 80%, 90%, how much time do you put into it? None, 5%. And so we'll bring that up. But what I then like to do once they kind of help them understand like how it's going to benefit them and give them the edge is make it really tangible, like give them really concrete strategies that they can go out

and try that day in practice. You know, I think for men in particular, getting to the nitty gritty of that has been really helpful. That's where sometimes when I partner with strength and conditioning, and it can be reinforced in the weight room and when they're conditioning can be really helpful of just as much application as is possible. So they can practice it. It can be tangible. It can be hands-on and then hopefully start to see the benefits. You know, the team sessions are more broad. And so as far as getting them in for individual sessions, that tends to be hard sometimes because nobody wants to say, I'm struggling, I'm having a hard time. And this comes up with the mental health side of it too,

even more so that when they have teammates who are willing to say like, oh yeah, I meet with Jenny every week, or yeah, I worked on my mental game with her, you know, my freshman year, or oh, when I was injured, I met with her. That makes such a difference. You know, one of the teams we've seen a huge increase in willingness to do individual sessions is our men's lacrosse team. And historically across campuses, men's lacrosse is, is a tough nut to crack and it's a tough team to get into, but it's this combination of the coach making time and space for sports psychology, their athletic trainer, that is like the biggest cheerleader in the world on our services. And over time, the guys themselves talking about it, like that's been the number one most powerful thing. So I think if we ever

have opportunities to encourage people to like talk about their experiences, makes all the difference in the world. We had a senior class a few years back that like half of them at least sought our services and like talked about it, like just like going to the training room with a dietician. And it just set a cascade of people coming in. Yeah, that's great. Wow. You have given us so much to consider and I'm so grateful for your time, Dr. Shannon. Here's a few things that I got from our conversation today as a way to summarize. We were talking about the importance of kind of acknowledging how you're feeling and taking more of a compassionate approach and then working from your values and realizing that you can take the

next right action that you want to based on your values. So I really appreciate our conversation about that and this idea of like name it to tame it. I also appreciated the ways that you provided us to kind of consider our values or how we might do that maybe to start the new year off the way we'd like to and the ways that we want to act towards those values and the ways that, okay, maybe what we would do that doesn't act

towards those values. And then at the end, we were talking about team culture and you gave us some like three suggestions on how to develop team culture. And you said, rally around values, develop real connection, and then consider psychological safety and the different ways that you could do that. And then at the end, I really appreciate you describing a time that you failed. Mostly because we did the same thing. I love it. I love it. And hopefully that helps people as they're listening. So tell us how people can reach out to you and if they'd like to follow you on social media. Yeah. So welcome to email me at my UNC email I've got questions Jenny Shannon j-e-n-i-s-h-a-n-n-o-n

at unc.edu and then I've got a UNC twitter at UNC sports site and so either of those are good ways to to find me awesome do you have any other kind of final thoughts for us? Oh man, I don't know that I do, to be honest. It's been a long year. My brain made me all out of thoughts, but I really appreciate the opportunity to talk through this stuff with you. I love these things, and I think they're just so, so important, and I hope it reaches more people who can embrace them and adapt them to whatever setting they're in whatever setting they're in and whatever they're working with. Absolutely wonderful.

So, so great to talk to you this afternoon and have a great holiday season. Thanks. You too. I appreciate it. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow. Did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want

more, remember to subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.