High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 405: How Professional Athletes Gain the Mental Edge with Lani Lawrence, Psy.D., New York Giant’s Director of Wellness and Clinical Services

Episode Date: January 30, 2021

Nohelani (Lani) Lawrence, Psy.D., is the Director of Wellness and Clinical Services for the New York Football Giants. Prior to joining the Giants, Dr. Lani was a clinical and sport psychologist at the University of Southern California. Her background in both sport and clinical psychology has led to a unique perspective regarding the concerns of student-athletes. At SC she provided performance enhancement training and mental health support to 21 elite NCAA Division-I teams, including men’s and women’s basketball, track & field, and swimming. She is a licensed psychologist in the State of California, and a Certified Mental Performance Consultant (CMPC) of the Association for Applied Sport Psychology. In 2012, she earned a Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology with an emphasis in Sport Psychology from the University of Denver and went on to complete both her pre-doctoral and post-doctoral internship at USC’s Student Counseling Services. Previously, she received her Ed.M. in Counseling Psychology, with emphasis in Sport Psychology from Boston University in 2008 and B.S. in Psychology from Northeastern University in 2002.  In this episode, Lani and Cindra talk about: What the best of the best do related to the mental game Strategies to reduce pressure she learned from elite athletes The mental game differences at the collegiate, Olympic and professional levels The Giant’s response to the death of George Floyd Why she is passionate about social justice issues Stategies she has implemented for herself as a female of color working in professional sport HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/405 HOW TO ENTER THE PODCAST GIVEAWAY TO WIN $500 CASH: www.drcindra.com/giveaway FB COMMUNITY FOR THE HPM PODCAST: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2599776723457390/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong TO FIND MORE ABOUT LANI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nohelani-m-lawrence-psyd-b0475012/ Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best so you can accomplish all your goals and dreams. So I'm over here following my big dreams and I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Ms. Pac-Man.

Yes, the 1980s game Ms. Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the high performance mindset. Welcome to episode 405. This is your host, Dr. Sindhra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today. If you know that your mindset is essential to your success, then you are in the right place because each and every week we explore various topics related to mindset. And this week I had the honor of interviewing Lonnie Lawrence. Now, Dr. Lawrence is the Director of Wellness and Clinical Services for the New York Football Giants. Prior to joining the Giants, Dr. Lani was a clinical and sports psychologist at the

University of Southern California. Her background in both sport and clinical psychology has led to a unique perspective regarding the concerns of student-athletes. At the University of Southern California, she provided performance enhancement training and mental health support to 21 elite NCAA Division I teams, including men's and women's basketball, track and field, and swimming. She's a licensed psychologist in the state of California and a certified mental performance consultant with the Association for Applied Sports Psychology. In 2012, she earned her PsyD in clinical psychology

with an emphasis in Sports Psychology from the University of Denver. And before that, she got her Master's in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Sports Psychology from Boston University and a Bachelor's in Psychology from Northeastern University. So in this episode, Dr. Lani and I talk about what the best of the best do related to the mental game, strategies to reduce pressure that she learned from elite athletes and working with them, the mental game differences at the college, and how to get the best of the best do related to the mental game, strategies to reduce pressure that she learned from elite athletes and working with them, the mental game differences at the collegiate, Olympic, and professional levels, the Giants' response to the death of George Floyd,

how she personally impacted that response, why she is passionate about social justice issues, and strategies that she's implemented herself as a female of color working in professional sport. Here are two of my favorite things that she said in this episode. She said, NFL athletes have learned more to get the mental edge. Talent alone won't help you stay at the professional level. And then she also described how goals are a roadmap, but values are your compass. You can use your values when you feel lost

or to help you make the right decision. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you haven't already, leave us a rating and review wherever you're listening. This just helps us spread the podcast quicker and reach more and more people. If you're listening on iPhone, for example, you can just scroll up

and leave us a rating and review there. Thank you so much. Now, without further ado, let's bring on Lonnie. Lonnie, thank you so much for joining us here today on the podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you this Friday morning. How is everything going there? Everything is great. It's been a busy week, so it went by quick, but certainly glad to be able to spend Friday morning with you and be able to get together today. I know. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And just for people who might not be familiar with your work, maybe just start with telling us a little bit about your

passion and what you're doing right now. Yeah. So it's so interesting to think about different passions. I often go back to like values that are really important to me, making connection with people, family, travel, stuff like that. I've been really passionate about, especially in my career, about diversity and inclusion. And a lot of that has led to my work that I'm doing now with the Giants. So I'm currently the Director of Wellness and Clinical Services for the New York Football Giants. I've been there, actually, today is my one-year anniversary.

I just realized. Oh, today? Wow. Yeah, so I've been there for exactly a year. And it's been an interesting one, to say the least. But yeah, an amazing organization and so happy to be a part of that club. Wow. Well, I look forward to hearing and talking more about your role there and how you got that role, but also what you've been doing in there and the great work you've been doing.

So maybe just start us off and tell us what led you to the field of sports psychology specifically. Yeah. So back in the day, I got a full scholarship playing women's basketball for those who haven't met me before. I'm about 6'3". I have a really long wingspan and played division one. And while I was there, my senior year, we got a sports psychologist and he was absolutely amazing. I kind of struggled a little bit with anxiety and he was able to, it was the first time I had learned about meditation, mantras, all the mental skills stuff that I ended up learning. But at that time, the team was struggling with different clinical issues,

like substance abuse. There were some legal issues, relational issues. And what I realized was that there was an opportunity to impact a team beyond just being a coach. That if I was able to learn a little bit more about sports psych, not only would I be able to impact a coach, that if I was able to learn a little bit more about sports psych, not only would I be able to impact a team, but I would be able to work one-on-one a little bit more with players, which I really enjoy. And so after I graduated, I was really fortunate and played overseas for a year, just enough to travel around Europe and then realize I wanted to be back home. And when I came back, I began a program at Boston University. They had a master's program. And as soon as I started that program, I was like, this is it.

This is what I want to do. And after BU, I realized that the type of work I wanted to do included clinical work still that I was really invested in learning more how to help support athletes and beyond just performance. And so that led me to this ID program at University of Denver, which is a great program and was able to match and got an internship at USC where I stayed for about another, I think, eight years. So it was a good spot. But that's how I initially really got involved in sports psych and recognizing some of the issues that came up with my team and all the different ways that one person could positively impact the way that both individuals and the team overall can perform.

So, yeah, that's how I first got started in sports psych. That's beautiful. I'm thinking a lot about our stories. There's some overlap. I'm not 6'3", but played a role, ran cross country and track, Division I as well. And, you know, I was not very consistent. I wish that I had the mental skills now. You're right that I know now I wish I had them. But I saw a sports psychologist as well. And that's really how I got really interested in the field. I remember getting this Rick runner's world magazine. My mom bought me, you know, as a Christmas present. And I would, Oh, the first article I would always turn to was like the mental training article. Like there's always one, right. Where like Kate Hayes and people in our field were quoted.? Pretty fun. So tell us a little bit about the work that you do now and just how you go about doing your work.

Yeah. So what's really unique about my position is that I oversee three three general areas. So one one piece is player development. And when you think of sports psychology, mental skill training, a lot of the work that I do is embedded into those programs. So we have rookie success training that we do where we speak to the rookies almost every day during OTAs, opportunities to talk to the vets during that time period as well. And then doing programming like team cohesion, consulting with staff and coaches. So one aspect is performance and player development. The second piece is mental health. So I'm hoping, well, like the clinical referral list that I utilize with my players and coaches, but also the staff. And so I provide support not only to the team,

but I also do some general support to the business side as well. So that can be a little bit busy. And then the third part is helping out with draft assessment. So last year, attending the Combine, interviewing prospects, there's these things called 30-30 visits where they come to visit and doing individual sessions with them, helping create an assessment tool that we use within the Giants and providing feedback on that and being in some of those meetings. So my scope is actually pretty large. And my hope is that it will continue to grow in terms of my department

and retaining some help in all these three different areas. But it's kind of like an umbrella of all those things. Yeah. And I could see like, given you're just balancing all those three, those could be positions within itself. Exactly. When I interviewed, I felt like I had to feel like, so I just, I just want to make, I just want to be clear in the beginning that hopefully at some point I'm going to get some support. And they're like, yeah, we're, we're, we're hoping that this will expand. And I'm like, okay, just want to make sure that this, this is a huge, huge task. And so I'm looking forward to the future of what will be created, but yeah, right now it is really interesting trying to balance all three.

So I think one thing that's really interesting about your work is you were at USOC for a while, right? You were at University of Southern California. So you're at the collegiate level. I know you've done some work with USA Track and Field and now at the Giants. So you've got to see these different levels of sport. Tell us just a little bit about your perception of the differences. Yeah, so what's been unique

about my experience is that at USC, I have been there for I think about eight and a half years, almost nine just to round off. And all the work, not necessarily with the USOC, but with USA Track and Field, I've been able to really experience what it's like, the pressure that some of the athletes have in having, instead of a Super Bowl happening once a year, having to wait every four years for that one defining moment all the time, and then moving on to the football level, which is a completely different type of organization than USA Track and Field. But when it comes to performance, it's been interesting to see how the individual athletes are different on each of those levels. So with college,

I don't know if it's distraction, but you have collegiate athletes who developmentally are at a different level than a professional athlete, even though there's maybe a couple of years difference between a rookie coming in and a freshman coming into college, that, you know, peer relationships being such an important aspect in college, the pressures of academics being in college and being eligible, the pressures that you get from family members, from your high school team, your coaches team, to go from being one of the most successful maybe players in your high school and then taking a backseat at USC can be sometimes a challenge in a way that with NFL players, those types of distractions don't typically happen.

And then with, you know, some of the USA track and field athletes that I have as well, the contracts that you get at football is just not the same with USA track and field. And so the pressure of being able to put food on your table, to be able to get a sponsorship, to be able to stay focused and not overwhelmed by the pressure of trying to make an Olympic team, each three of those different phases look really different because of the environment, pay structure, and support that those three groups have. And so there's certainly a bit of variety in between. And I can go more into it, but I don't know if that kind of initially answers your question. Yeah, that does answer my question. And I'm thinking about, as I'm listening listening just how the pressures are different right absolutely with all those levels but haven't necessarily been like with USA track and field necessarily see it in depth but it's more like I see it at the individual level um and you know the pressure to provide for your family or to pay your bills versus the pressure to, you know, do work at, you know, do well,

really well in school versus like Sunday when you're on TV. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you see in terms of like the mental game and how the mental game might be different given the different circumstances? So I was actually surprised on the NFL level. And I can't tell if it's because of the pandemic and guys just have more time. Like there's less to do. You're not socializing as much with your teammates. Or I can't tell if it's the way that

or the type of players that the Giants draft. But what I've observed is a really willingness to learn more about how to get that mental edge, whether it's reading, whether it's meeting with people, whether it's open discussions that for the players that I know, anytime I suggest a book or anytime I print out information, they're constantly wanting to gather information, absorb it, learn more, discuss it, talk about it in a way that really surprised me. And I can't tell on the collegiate level because you're so overwhelmed by academics, it's really hard to have that space and time to consume all the information you want to help with your individual performance. But that's one thing that actually surprised me coming in, the willingness and openness to learn more. I also think with college athletes, again, there's so many things going on in terms of academics.

You're trying to socialize. You know, you're you're at a place mature wise where you're where you're trying to balance interpersonal relationships. There's breakups going on. And so a lot of the athletes that would maybe initially come and see me wasn't necessarily performance. They're coming in because of a breakup, a fight that they're having with a teammate, depression, anxiety, disordered eating. And it's not that those things don't occur at the other levels. But I think as you mature and get older, those issues become more stabilized and they don't feel as urgent as they do when you're an undergrad. And so certainly the level of maturity, the mental health issues that come about. And I'm kind of thinking as I'm talking out loud, I also believe that as you transition to becoming a professional, unfortunately, it's so competitive that if you haven't yet been able to manage some of the mental health issues that you

had in college, talent alone is not going to allow you to stay on the professional level. That there's too many people with similar talent and ability that they're ready to take your spot. That unfortunately, you can get weeded out, for lack of a better word. And so again, those issues don't become as apparent. Now, I think there's some stat that one in five Americans have severe mental illness. And I still think that stat is true for any kind of professional level, whether it's USA track and field or NFL. So I'm not saying that there's no mental health issues within those levels, but it's certainly different

than why maybe somebody is being self-referred or referred in on the college level. And again, with, I think USA track and field, I think the pressures and distractions are different than they are at the professional level. And again, it's not to say that we don't have rookies who are struggling with pay or vets who are struggling with moving from team to, like, you probably know, like, you can be on a team for a week and then cut. Absolutely. And then get sent, like, you know, across the country for a tryout. And, you know, so it's not to say that NFL players live in this utopia, utopian environment, right? Like they experience stuff,

but it's just, I think it's different than for track and field and especially for college athletes. Yeah, Lonnie, as you're talking, I'm thinking about a rookie who I did some work with, and he was struggling with some pressure from his family. And it was kind of, there's a lot of distractions with his family. And because he was so distracted, you know, he wasn't able to really show in that really short week what he possibly could do. And so then he didn't make the team because it was so cutthroat in that short amount of time.

Whereas I think college athletes have a little bit more time to like show their skills and show what they can do for the team. You know, as you were talking about Olympic athletes and just this pressure to have your one shining moment every four years, you are talking to an Olympic athlete who was expressing that kind of struggle or pressure. Well, how might you address that? Or, you know, what are some things that you're, you're, you know, in your, your perspective helps athletes do with that. I mean, the one thing I'll say consistently is remaining present and that everyone should have a goal in mind, right? And I want everyone to be high achieving, but the journey to get to that goal, it's probably going to look a lot different than what you're expecting that there's going to be unexpected obstacles challenges setbacks um and everybody thinks success is the straight line when it ebbs and flows and it's up and down and i think one way

to combat those um times of struggle is really being present and creating small goals for yourself, small achievable goals that you can set forth and kind of mark your progress, something to kind of reflect on. And the more I think an athlete can be present on maximizing their practice and letting each practice build into the first race or event yeah maximizing as much as they can that event and having that build to whatever goal that they're setting um if you can if you can take your mental, physical, emotional energy and focus it and pinpoint on getting the most out of that day. And then you can stack those days up. You start building the steps that you need towards success.

I feel kind of cliche in saying that. But I truly think that having the mental mindset of remaining focused can be really helpful. I also think I don't, this may not be appreciated as much, but having a positive mindset can be really helpful. And being hopeful, even in times of struggle, and remaining focused on what you're trying to accomplish can be really helpful. I think one of the biggest struggles I've seen is for track and field athletes, them having already lost the race or the event in their mind before competing, before they even get to the line, they're concerned about where they're going to finish. And instead of focusing on whether it's getting into the blocks or feeling like the shot put in their hand or

feeling the grip of the javelin, you know, and thinking about execution, they're already stepping ahead in the future, becoming anxious over something that hasn't even happened yet. And to me, the ones that I've seen the most successful are the ones that are staying present and thinking about executing that one moment. So. So I think everyone can relate to what you're saying, you know, and that takes a lot of practice in terms of staying in competition when you want to do really well, or it's the olympics or the trials right and um you're feeling a lot of the pressure and the um maybe urge to think about the future a

lot in your perspective what's the best way to train that ability to stay in the present more often well i think you know i my training more recently, as I've entered my mid career has been on mindfulness and practicing meditation. And I, to be honest, when I was in college, I didn't really understand how that was helpful. I was taking deep breaths. I wasn't helping fall asleep. Aside from that, I didn't know how it helped improve my focus, attention, helped me let go of negative thinking, helped me come back to positive thoughts. And whenever I've worked with a team, whether it's been USC, whether it's been with USATF or with the Giants even currently, I've always encouraged meditation and mindfulness and really emphasizing

it beyond just relaxation, that when you can get, when you are able to practice it on a consistent basis, you would think like after a couple of weeks, you start, you start to realize how much your mind is that jumping around and how much, how, how distracted you can be, whether you're in practice or watching film or reviewing video. And anytime that I can get my athletes to, to practice, participate, discuss, read about mindfulness, I think it's always been extremely helpful. But the other But the other thing I think is really important too is consistency. And not all athletes are a fan of mindfulness. I think there's even some athletes who find it actually anxiety provoking to sit and just to focus on their breath.

And so whatever routine that they find consistent, if they can reflect on a time that they've performed well before in the past and thinking about those things that they did to get their self into the right mindset and creating a routine that is flexible, that incorporates even their values and things that prime their mind and their body physically, I think is always, always helpful. So staying present, being positive, being consistent, those are some of the things I try to preach and, you know, create a routine in. That's great. Lonnie, I really like and use this for a long time. I love meditation apps on my phone. I really love one. It used to be called Stop Breathe Think and they just changed it to like. Yes. Yeah. And I don't know if I'm allowed to promote or, but if I were to suggest an app, we're just sharing what's helpful for us. Okay, good. So if I, if I were to recommend a meditation app, I would certainly recommend it is called my life. And the reason why I like it is because it literally has you check in. It has you

stop, think about how you're doing physically, mentally, emotionally, and then it's able to create or suggest a meditation based on how you're feeling in that present moment. And then when you do it enough, you're better able to notice your change of emotion. You're better able to change. You're better able to recognize your mood and the current state that you're in. And I think what's even better, when you're feeling a certain way, you have a general sense of what meditation you need to do. Like if I'm feeling down or unconfident, I know that maybe a gratitude meditation or self-compassion meditation would be really helpful for me to engage in. And if I'm feeling a bit anxious, doing something that's focused on my physical body, like a

body scan or deep breathing is really good. So I highly, if there's anything that people get out of this talk, it's to download this app. Yeah, I really, I've never heard anybody else say that they love it as much as I do. So everyone should download it. We're not, we're not going to say this, you know. Exactly. That's great.

So I'd love to learn more about your transition to the Giants. And, you know, you guys have been doing such amazing work on racial justice. And so I'd love to learn more about your transition to just the Giants in general, and maybe how that started as you started your position there a year ago. Yeah, so who would have thought, you know, a year last year, if you think about it, we had just heard about this coronavirus. And I was in the midst of just meeting people from the football side, from the business side, which was great that I had the opportunity to do so and kind of see what like what normal life looks like within the club. And then eventually was able to

go to the combine and get that experience too. But in March, when we were all sent home, everybody across the league had to figure out how they were going to do OTAs virtually and how were we going to connect with our, with our rookies and our rookie program. And so, you know, the Giants being an excellent organization was able to figure this out and the virtual meetings that we're going to have. And so we were meeting with the rookies maybe on a daily basis and our vets or the entire team, maybe on a, uh, twice a week. And when everything happened with George Floyd, for me, it was being able to communicate the importance to people within the organization of what just happened and the response that

the players would have. And, you know, again, I'm going to get sound tired by saying this, but the Giants are just such an organization, they immediately got it and realized that there were conversations that needed to be done. And we needed to figure out how to best support the team. And so one of the things that the organization did was really trying to figure out how could the athletes maximize their platform and positively impact the region that we play for. And so Coach Judge, who's amazing, thought of this idea called Team of Teams, where the entire organization, or sorry, the team was broken up into seven different groups. And each group represented a region within the New York metro area.

So one group represented East Orange, Patterson, Manhattan, Queens, New York, and they were named after different New York, New Jersey teams. So I think the Islanders, it was like the, but it was like Staten Island Islanders because we couldn't go all the way out to Long Island. And then, you know, we had the Harlem Globetrotters. We had the Manhattan Knicks. We had the Mets, which represented Queens, New York Devil, I mean, sorry,

the New Jersey Devils, I think, represented Newark, et cetera, et cetera. And each player or each group was able to identify a nonprofit that they were going to represent and partner with and do work. And for some of our players, I think Jabril Peppers is from East Orange. And so he was able to choose a nonprofit in his hometown. And Matt Pert is from the Bronx. And so there was an organization that was paired with him in the Bronx, et cetera.

And the players just went with it and did such an incredible job. There was mentoring programs that they would develop, meeting weekly with kids. There were partnerships with the NYPD that they would do and in their football league. And I have to say that all this stuff is like public. I'm not providing any insider information or anything, but the success of that and it being successful because of the amount of participation that our coaches and players did and the positive response from the nonprofits in the communities. And players picked, you know, voting registration, domestic violence, homelessness, like a whole wide range of different organizations and areas that they were passionate about. And so, you know, I think we are one of the teams that does kneel, not the entire team, but there are players who kneel during the national anthem.

And I think one of the things that was really important for the organizations, but I think also for the players, was that they want to be able to use their platform to raise awareness around racial injustice, but also show what it looks like to make an impact yeah and to use their voices not just to bring awareness but to bring about change and so um being able to just be a small part of that team of teams piece was amazing and i ultimately think that it helped helped connect players with one another because you're working with people who aren't in your position group you're working with coaches who aren't your position coach it brought cohesion with the team it felt like that despite all of the negativity that was happening within the beginning of the summer and all the backlash sure um that the team was able to find a way to unite and feel like that they were doing something together and it was competitive you know for each

team that um there was i won't go into it but each team was actually um not judged that feels a little harsh but uh but but they were you know analyzed with the work that they did. And there was a prize, like, you know, once a month of who was doing the most work. So the guys were competitive to get that, you know, that parking spot and everything else. So for us, it was just amazing to be a part of that. And I'm looking forward to seeing how the team continues to work on that in the future. Well, a few things that I'm hearing is that it did bring the team together, right? But I'm curious to learn more about how you think it impacted just awareness of racial injustice within New York or just within the United States. And I think it's,

it's easy for maybe feels, you know, just to kind of like what happened with George Floyd and the death of George Floyd, not to do anything with what happened with George Floyd and the death of George Floyd, not to do anything with that as an organization, but I think it's incredible that something came from, you know, like the teams of this, this team of teams. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How the organization came together. Yeah. So I think it did two things. I think it, I believe sometimes organizations are hesitant to bring up issues they find uncomfortable. Right. And it allowed our organization to figure out how we could become better in addressing issues of racial injustice. It provided a platform for our players to really thrive and use their voice in a positive way. I think it helped even the business side connect with the players more because they were able to not promote it, but just to shine light of the incredible work that the players are doing. I mean, I encourage

anyone to go to Giants.com and read about some of the stuff that they're doing, because it really was each group did such a magnificent job in their own way, but it really provided a way for the organization to figure out what more could we do in this area and recognizing what hadn't been done in the past. And some of the work that I've done has been helping create a diversity and inclusion group that really focuses on the Giants organization in doing more in this area, how staff members can participate more, what changes the organization can do. And again, I think this is all motivated by not just wanting to say we want to see a difference, but really walking the talk.

I can't think of anything that's less cliche of really putting into policy changes that needs to be made, really thinking about how we can better show appreciation and thoughtfulness toward diversity inclusion. Like, you know, I think, I don't know if this is league wide but I know like for us, we're celebrating Juneteenth, that is a holiday for us. And for a group that doesn't get Christmas off, like Christmas is not like an official holiday

that we get off, right? Like that is hugely important. And I think it's also about education, educating our players, our coaches, our staff about the experiences that the organization can grow, but also really being able to signify how changes can be made. And so I think it's been well received within the community. I couldn't tell you, I haven't read a newspaper article necessarily saying like groups being like, oh, this is amazing. But I do think it's made a positive impact and something that I hope becomes a continuing legacy of what the Giants organization does within,

within their region. So. Yeah. And I'm also thinking as I'm listening about how you're helping, you know to help the organization really grow in this way and, you know, just changing the organization, which I think then you help change the world, right? So, yeah. I mean, that's a small piece, but, and I have to say that there is a group of dedicated employees who find, who feel so passionate about this area and to be able to work with them, especially my first year coming in, like they don't know me from like a slice of bread with everything that's going on, but to join with other employees who really want to see,

see change and seeing how, how can we maximize our impact? How can we be a cornerstone of what other clubs and teams can do? Like it's, it's exciting in a way that I would have never thought a year ago I would be participating in. Yeah. So I would definitely encourage people to check out. And I will also put out, you know, more about this initiative in the show notes. So if you just want to scroll down as you're listening, I'll add some links there so you can learn more about what the Giants did. Lonnie, one of the things that a lot of people ask me, you know, is like, tell me about your experience working in football. Since you're a female, I'd love to learn more about what your experiences have been and, you know, how working in this culture might be very different than maybe at the college level or the

Olympic level. Yeah. You know, what's interesting, especially with USA Track and Field, you have men and women who are competing, training, lifting together 24-7. You have female coaches coaching men. And so there's a dynamic there that I now appreciate more than I could realize in terms of just the equity of seeing men and women competing and and the ease of that and especially on the college level certainly typically female athletes are um utilizing counseling services at a higher rate than our male athletes and while I had, I got the experience to work with our football team and men's basketball team, you know, when it comes to individual sessions, you would have a little bit more of an influx of women. And especially in the counseling center

world, the majority of professionals are women, right? So coming into football, you know, and I had thought deeply about this and and kind of knowing that it was going to be more male centric. The concerns of it being a more heterosexist environment, certainly concerns about maybe it being more of a homophobic environment. And for those who don't know I identify as a lesbian of color and so that was extremely important to me and being in a in a safe environment um and so in some ways uh the Giants are incredibly progressive like extremely open um you know uh coach judge gave me and my partner a wedding gift you know and maybe that shouldn't be unexpected but like just small things like that are so important, right? Very important.

Yeah. Not all organizations, I think, are like this in the NFL. No, I don't think so either. And it certainly determined whether or not, you know, to go from USC to move across the country, even though I was moving closer to home, certainly came into play about how me and my wife would be received, right? And whether or not they would be not just even received or accepted, but like, would we be appreciated? And, you know, and that's certainly the case. So with the pandemic, though, and the limited amount of people who could interact with the team um any female employees that i was working with pre-pandemic were basically gone afterwards it was

me and one other individual who worked um in uh i.t i believe were the lone females traveling with the team, being at practice, being in the cafeteria. And so there's certainly this element of being very aware of your gender, your presence. And this is within an organization that, again, I feel is very progressive, very welcoming, very thoughtful about the way that they incorporate women into the training room. And at the same time, having concerns about whether or not my presence was valid, whether or not suggestions or when I would consult with coaches, staff, or even players, how much that consultation or feedback or information given was appreciated, viewed as knowledgeable. And I think what's constantly challenging whenever you're, maybe, I don't know if it's necessarily a minority, but certainly as a woman,

a Black woman, and a concern of whether or not an interaction that you have is maybe your own misperception and concern about how you're being perceived versus a valid experience of what somebody's projecting onto you. And it can be very energy draining if you allow yourself to kind of constantly worry or think about whether or not your words, whether or not what you're saying is being seen as valid. And that is certainly an experience I had to work through and really being confident in myself and my knowledge and what I bring. You know, I had to remind myself, you know, the Giants aren't going to make a hiring decision just based on being nice, right? Like they're not going to invest money, you know, or bring in someone just because they, you know, they want to look good or because

they think that a particular hire needs to happen. They, I, you know, I, and I, you know, I don't know how this is going to come across viewers or whoever's listening, but for me, I, I had to remind myself of that and remind myself of the skills that I, that I bring and the knowledge that I can, can have. And so, you know, and, and I'm not just, and I'm not to say too, that maybe men don't experience this, that they don't experience, you know, whether or not they're being heard. But I do think it is that there is some truth that people may not immediately see me as knowledgeable. They may question my role being there. They may question how I can help them. And it's my job to educate and to be able to show and showcase what I bring so that I can be utilized. And I certainly felt like that was done, but it was a hard transition

initially. I shouldn't say hard transition. It was a transition to be able to work through that stuff, that personal stuff for me initially. Well, first of all, that I appreciate everything that you just said, because I have felt similar and to know that, okay, I'm not alone, where maybe you start overthinking interactions and I found that's not helpful, you know, and I, you know, I was just thinking, I wanted to ask you, like, what have you done? And what I'm hearing is just like, remind yourself of your knowledge, remind yourself that you are confident that you have the knowledge and the education and the experiences to rely on and not be silent because they didn't hire you to be silent or to be a nice person. Exactly. Or whatever, right? They hired you to be silent or to be a nice person. Exactly. Or whatever, right? They hired you to really impact the organization.

I mean, the one thing I feel like I've been forced to grow is being confident in my voice and being outspoken. You know, I actually appreciate a lot of feedback. And I reached out to players and coaches just receiving feedback about my first year. And it just made me realize that the one thing I want to do more this upcoming season is really just vocalizing and saying more, interacting more, sharing my knowledge, meeting more with individual players, meeting and consulting with coaches. Not that I didn't do that last year, but now there's, now that I have a sense of how the season goes, having a year under my belt, kind of seeing the dynamics and understanding what the Giants organization means, the NFL league is doing more to reach out and connect with players and coaches and staff and that there's not a vacuum but what's so exciting is that

sports psychology has gained traction within college but it's like still a new frontier it feels like with the NFL and professional teams but there's yeah there's information that that players and coaches don't have yet and resources they're not even aware that the apps i have all my athletes i've sent all of them this app to have them work on and that's one of the things that they said has been most helpful is being able to utilize and having suggestions on which one to use and everything else. And those small things go so far because it's knowledge. It's an area that has been untapped. Everybody has a nutritionist, everybody has an athletic trainer and everything else,

but not every team has a sports psychology doing performance work. And not every team, you know, has someone who has different specialties that I feel like I bring. And when I remind myself of that, like you can probably even hear it in my voice, like I get excited and feel more confident and want to connect. And so those are the things that I remind myself. And for those who may be out or unsure about what I bring, I hope that my personality, my ability to connect can help educate them a little bit more, you know, and change their minds. Lonnie, what advice would you give to people who maybe do feel silenced or feel similar to what you and I just described? Maybe they're a minority and, you know, they might feel like they should be quiet, you know, what advice might you give them? I think this can relate to any profession, not just in performance psychology. You know, I always go back to, well, two things. I always go back to my values. I value connection. I value education. I value, there's certain things that are core to my personal life and career that I always make sure that I remind myself and try to

exemplify. And so for me, education, even doing this podcast, for me, it's educating other people about the experience of the NFL, of what it means to be a sports psychologist and the work. And so if you can really, if you can identify your three to five values that you can always come back to whenever you're lost. Somebody said this to me and it really stuck. Goals are kind of like a roadmaps, like Google Maps. You go from one point to another, you make a left turn or whatever, but your values is more like a compass. When you're lost and you kind of need to point yourself in the right direction, you go back to your values and that helps you make the right decision. one piece. The second piece is recognizing your uniqueness. I think what makes me great in this role is that I'm not another random dude that the guys can talk to. One of the reasons why I think I

excel in this role is because I'm different. I have a different perspective. I've not worked with other NFL teams. I've worked with track and field athletes. I've worked with collegiate athletes. And that provides me a different perspective that's refreshing and needed for the coaches and for the players and for the staff. And so whenever I feel like, wow, like I haven't been in the league long enough, do I really know what's going on? How can I really help if I don't know? Like they didn't bring me here because I was like everybody else. Like they specifically brought me here because I provide a different experience, a different perspective that people can connect with me.

And so if you can think about what is unique about you, what is the perspective that you can bring that is lacking within your organization or within the team or the work that you're doing. And, and that, that feels authentic. Yeah. That, that again, can be your, your guide, something that you can come back to that's going to be consistently with you and help, you know, help you make decisions, whether it's for yourself or for, or for the company. I think you can always, you know, help you make decisions, whether it's for yourself or for the company. I think you can always, you'll always go the right way doing that.

And I have a tendency to talk a lot, but the one thing, the one last thing I'll say is that allowed me to come to this position. If I had decided to go a different route instead of training or, you know, my background was actually psychodynamic, that would have taken me a different route. But because I made decisions based on things that were important to me, it's allowed me to get to this point where I am now in a way that's authentic, where I can be my full self and not be appreciated and really welcomed. Lonnie, what a great way to end this conversation. I think everything that you just said, I am taking in, reminding myself of, but I know, you know, everyone who's listening appreciated what you just said about authenticity and like

really finding your full self and being your full self and finding your voice. So thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so grateful that you described some of the things I took from today was just the differences between college, Olympic, and professional athletes in the mental game. I really appreciated everything you described about the Giants organization and the racial injustice work that you're helping to lead there and what a powerful impact that makes. And then at the end about our conversation about, you know, just navigating a space that maybe you might be different in. So how can people reach out to you or follow along if they want to learn more about what

you're doing? Yeah, so unfortunately, I'm not a huge social media person. Like, so I have a Twitter, but I'm barely on it. So don't follow me on Twitter, but I do, I do actually do some stuff on, on Instagram. So if anybody wants to follow me there, Dr. Lonnie underscore sports psych is probably the best way to kind of see some of the stuff I'm about. And, you know,

if anybody wants to slide into my DMs, that's a way to contact me as well. Perfect. Thank you so much, Lonnie. I'm so grateful for your time and sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us. Well, thank you for giving me this platform to speak. I really enjoyed today. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump.

Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers, where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.