High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 438: The Mindset of an Olympian with Iris Zimmerman, Performance Coach and Olympian

Episode Date: June 20, 2021

Today on the podcast we have Iris Zimmerman, an American Olympic fencer turned Performance Coach. Iris is an Olympian, Mother, and Performance Coach. At 14 years old, she became the first Fencing World Champion from the United States. Over the next 21 years, she had a successful fencing career -- becoming a NCAA Champion for Stanford University and making the 2000 Olympic team. Her accomplishments and career in fencing eventually earned her a place in the United States Fencing Hall of Fame. After she retired from fencing, she became the co-owner of the Rochester Fencing Club with her sister and fellow Olympian, Felicia Zimmermann. Iris is currently the Director of Client and Coach Experience and Performance Coach for Valor Performance. Through her work at Valor, she has coached leaders from Salesforce, Akamai, Brigham and Women's Hospital. She also owns her own consulting and coaching business that specializes in working with business owners and entrepreneurs. In this episode, Iris and Cindra discuss: Her lessons learned from her journey to the Olympics The top traits of high performers in sport and business The impact of negative self-talk and the Imposture Syndrome Why you are your greatest enemy and what to do about it Why it is important to “take a step back to thrive forward.” How having joy in the process is essential   HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: https://www.cindrakamphoff.com/category/podcast/ FB COMMUNITY FOR THE HPM PODCAST: https://www.facebook.com/groups/highperformancemindsetcommunity FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong TO FIND MORE ABOUT IRIS AND HER WORK: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iriszimmermann Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best. So you can accomplish all your goals and dreams.

So I'm over here following my big dreams. And I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Miss Pac-Man. Yes, the 1980s game Miss Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the high performance mindset. Claire Hughes once said, if you dream and allow yourself to dream, you can do anything. Michael Phelps said, you can't put a limit to anything. The more you dream, the further you get. And Jackie Joyner-Kersee said, work 100% but enjoy every moment along the way. This is your host, Dr. Cindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today on the podcast. If you know that mindset is essential to your success, then you are in the right place. And today on the

podcast, we have Iris Zimmerman, an American Olympic fencer turned performance coach. At age 14 years old, she became the first fencing world champion from the United States. And over the next 21 years, she had a successful fencing career, becoming an NCAA champion for Stanford University and making the 2000 Olympic team. Her accomplishments and career in fencing eventually earned her a place in the United States Fencing Hall of Fame. After she retired from fencing, she became the co-owner of the Rochester Fencing Club with her sister and fellow Olympian Felicia Zimmerman. Iris is currently the director of client and coach experience and a performance

coach for Valor Performance. And through her work at Valor, she has coached leaders from Salesforce, Akumai, and Brigham and Women's Hospital. She owns her own consulting and coaching business that specializes in working with business owners and entrepreneurs. In this episode, Iris and I talk about her lessons learned from her journey to the Olympics, the top traits of high performance in both sport and business, the impact of negative self-talk and imposter syndrome, and why you are your greatest enemy and what to do about it. She also shares with us her favorite concept, which is this, take a step back to thrive forward.

To get the full show notes along with a transcript of this episode, you can head over to cindracampoff.com slash 438. And if you enjoyed today's podcast interview, please leave us a rating and review wherever you are listening. This just allows us to reach more and more people each and every week. Without further ado, let's bring on Iris. Hi, everybody on Facebook. It's great to see you. I'm so excited to welcome Iris to the podcast. How are you doing, Iris? I'm doing great. I'm very excited. We're live. It's amazing.

We are live and we just got a little bit of feedback on my end. I had to close the Facebook group, um, or at least what I could see, but thank you so much, Iris. I'm really excited to have you here on the podcast and to just get us started, started, tell us a little bit about what you're passionate about. Oh, what a great question. I'm passionate about a lot of things. How about that? But, you know, I was an Olympic fencer. So for a lot of my life, I was very passionate about the sport of fencing.

And, you know, in the last couple of years, I've been a performance coach. So I've been very passionate about that. I work for Valor Performance. We are teammates on that Valor Performance team. And I'm also the director of client and coach experience at Valor right now. So I'm passionate about that. And I think because of who I am, I would also say I'm really passionate about my own family, my kids. I have two little kids, two daughters, six and eight, and I'm really into raising them and being a part of their lives. So I would be remiss of not mentioning them as well. That sounds wonderful. I can't be remiss of not mentioning them as well.

That sounds wonderful. I can't wait to learn more about your experience as a performance coach, but also as an Olympian. And so maybe just start there. Tell us a bit about your background in fencing and what led you to trying to make the Olympic team and ultimately making the Olympic team. I love it because it's like sum up 15 or 20 years of your life. I was like, that was a big question. Can you sum it up for us? Um, so, you know, my sister was, my sister is a two, not was, but is, so we're always Olympians, right? So she's a two-time Olympian, um, in fencing as well in 96 and 2000. And she, my story intertwines with hers. So she started fencing at about eight years old. I was about two or three. And so I would

toddle along with her to fencing to the fencing club. And even the, my coach also made me a little foil. So even at three or four, when I was walking I was just hitting a target on the wall and coming in. And I finally, you know, made the leap at six years old. And at that time, you know, that was before Tiger Woods and that big deal of like, oh, well, he started at six playing golf. And so it was kind of unusual to have a six year old starting a sport and taking it. Not that I took it that seriously. Let's just, let's just be honest. I was having fun. I had, we played games and then, you know, about eight, nine, 10, my sister was doing very well and traveling internationally. And, and so we were there all the time for her and I was just enjoying myself as well. And I think one of the things that I would also say is my parents are

immigrants to this country. So my father is German and my mother's Chinese. And my mother knew that in the United States, if we're going to be able to afford college, we are going to have to do a sport. So she looked for hobbies, as she called it, sports to do. And then she pushed us. So if anyone knows what a tiger mom is, my mother is in the dictionary as a tiger mom. I mean, we did like sports, school, piano, Chinese school. I mean, we did it all. And we were definitely the definition of that. But so the journey of getting to the Olympics, it was all part of that. My sister was older, kind of pulling me along. She was in the 96 games. I was the youngest at the time, the youngest cadet world champion, which is under 17 age category. I became the first American world, at the time, the youngest cadet world champion, which is under 17 age

category. I became the first American world champion. So at a very young age, I was very good. And so, um, I made the 2000 Olympic team. And what was interesting is looking back on it, I actually missed the 2014 as an alternate and then 2008. And, um, so it's been, it's been an interesting ride. So when people talk about sustained performance, I think about my performance and why it was that I couldn't sustain that high level of high level of winning, right. So, or success, so to speak. So, so I use a lot of that in my thought process, thinking through why is it that I didn't make those teams or what happened and why was it such a, like a quick burn and then a come down? There's a lot to it, very complex, but so that's, I'm,

I'm summing up very quickly. My 15 years of dancing. And that's what follow-up questions are for, right? So, you know, and I was thinking about how you were raised and the tiger mom idea. And I can see so much of that in you now. You know, you're just such an incredible worker and so supportive of other people. And you're so quick to return emails. And I'm like, wow, you know, I can see that background. So

so I'll say thank you to your mom. She's listening. Yeah. But, you know, I was also thinking about tell us a bit about what that was like to not make the Olympics twice. Right. And what did you learn from that experience? Yeah, well, first, we could definitely psychoanalyze the perfectionist tendencies that have now been ingrained in me and outcome orientation. And then, you know, for those two Olympic games. So at the, at the 2000 Olympic games, I was 11th individually and we were, my sister, myself and another athlete, Dr. Ann Marsenik, she also was on the Olympic team. And we were favorited to win a medal, the first medal for women's foil in the United States.

And we were two points shy of winning a bronze medal. And I think that was kind of the beginning of the end, right? So at the Olympics, everyone else is enjoying themselves, really soaking it in. We've made it. It's so great. I flew all the way to Australia. And all I'm thinking is, when can I get home and start training for the next Olympic Games? When can I start training again?

And I need to prove it. I need to prove it. I need to prove it. So I don't remember ever in, like, of course I enjoyed myself. It was like, I was like Madonna at the Olympics with my credentials getting into all the parties. But, you know, I didn't really soak it in. I didn't think I was at the Olympics. I thought I failed. I'm a failure. I did not complete the mission. I didn't do what I was supposed to. And I failed. And at 19 years old, that's where my thought process was. And I was injured a lot

because I was an over, I would over-train because of this mentality. So when we talk about that professionalist mentality, it's like over-training overdoing now that, you know, you do everything wrong and then you become a coach because you did everything wrong. So, you know, we, I over-trained and I got back and I remember like getting back, I didn't really rest. I just trained again, you know, and I went to college and I become an NCAA champion. I trained at Stanford and I just kept training and training and it was just never enough. And I think part of it too, I had a coach that was very old school. What have you done for me lately?

Outcome oriented, not a lot of like safety there. It was a lot of pushing. So I didn't really have anybody in my sphere of influence that really knew how to support an athlete and an athlete's mindset. I had a lot of sports psychologists, but I think when you have so many voices kind of telling you you're only as good as the last outcome, and then you have like one person that meets with you you're only as good as the last outcome. And then you have like one person that meets with you for half an hour every other week. It's not enough to undo the noise. So, um, you know, I became an alternate to 2004. I ended up like breaking up with my coach at that time because it just wasn't working anymore. His tactics of pushing hard weren't

working anymore. He was very much like a dictatorship. I'm the boss, you're the student. And at some point I was like, you know, I go to Stanford, I'm kind of smart. And I kind of been fencing for a long time. I don't really need to be talked down to like that. So I left and I did work with another coach and fascinating enough. She was the one coach, a female, Dr. Nat Goodhearts, who started working with me. And it was too, it wasn't enough time. She and I started before the 2008 games, like two years before, but she had to unravel 15

years of negative self-talk and negative push. So it wasn't enough time. Um, but I do think that, and I have thanked her for it is she's had everlasting effects on me. You know, one of the reasons I'm this, because I can hear so much of her voice guiding me towards this, this more positive place and a, and a more healthy place, um place to drive myself. That's a beautiful story. And I'm curious, Iris, you know, I have two boys myself, they are 14 and 12. And so last weekend, I was at like seven of my son's baseball games. I'm like, this is this is a little much, you know, 12 years old, but it was a lot of fun. But you know, you just kind of watch the coaches and I'm curious, you know, what advice would you give that you had

two very different coaches, one that was maybe more supportive, more that was, you know, more a dictarian or dictator. So what advice would you give for people who are listening, who are leaders or coaches? Right. I think it's the first words that come to mind, and maybe this isn't totally resonant, but it's about the long game, right? So when you coach somebody, and actually I glossed over this, but my sister and I owned a fencing club for nine years, and we could incentivize our coaches to say, make every single person that comes in here, the best they can be while they're here. Like meaning like let's burn them to the ground until they get results. Like we could be at that extreme or we could say, okay, we are one part of the

kid's journey. They have to love fencing. Right. And then they have to continue developing even when they're not here. right? So it was less about us than it was about the student. So when you focus in on the person and the student and their needs, rather than what do I need to do for my ego as a coach and what is better for the long-term development of the student, then you've got a good equation there, right? What's more important is this short period of time where I can burn them out or is, uh, is it better that I make good human beings through fencing or through a sport? And I think the best coaches like, um, John Wooden, I really like him too. He cared about people, right? So, um, I think the coaches that have really lasting effects

really care about people. However, I do understand the nature of like, oh, well, it's so touchy feely and like, you know, you know, it's too soft, right. Cause in sport, we gotta be hard and we gotta drive, we gotta grind, but the athlete themselves, if they're really good and high performance are already grinding, they're already pushing themselves. You don't have to force it more, right? You're there as I love this thought about kids too. Are you a gardener or a carpenter? As a coach, you're a gardener. You are a gardener. You're providing the environment for them to thrive because they have the ingredients to thrive. You have to care that they have potential. Same thing when we coach. Same thing when people lead.

You have to look at someone with potential. Sometimes you have to push hard because they're afraid to push themselves. But you're there, again, as a gardener. So I think the mentality is very different when it's not about you. And there are coaches with great intentions, but it really is a skill. You have to develop the skill. You have to develop a skill. Leaders have to develop the skill. Coaches have to develop the skill. The problem is, is that there's not enough focus on helping coaches and leaders develop those skill sets. It's not like

you're born one day and you're like, Oh, I can be a really good coach. Now, you know, it's, you're not a Phil Jackson overnight. I mean, Phil Jackson's not a Phil Jackson overnight. You have, you've got to learn, you've got to grow and you've got to get to a place where you're learning those skills. So that was the difference because the coach I had, the second one, she was a teacher. She was a professor for years. So, you know, she had to learn the skill. Yeah. Well, I love the message, Iris, of like person centered coaching, considering the person. And I'm also thinking about my you've worked with a lot of different sports psychologists over the years, right? You said that you worked with a lot of them just leading up to the Olympics. What's one thing that you took away from your work there? It wasn't anything that they taught me. It was when you're not ready to learn the lesson, you won't learn the lessons.

I was not ready to learn anything from anyone. I was ready to say, fix me. I got to get the hell back on the strip and make it happen. If you're not going to help me get back on the strip, I'm not going to talk to you and you're not going to help me. It's not helpful. Help me get on. Right. So, and I was injured so much and I, I didn't want to talk about being injured. I just wanted to get, you know, get me on the strip again, make it better, make it better, fix me, fix me, fix me. You know? So I think, I think I just wasn't in a mindset. I did absorb a lot of their information. I wrote a lot of it down. I still have my notebooks, but whether or not I could actually apply it or use it or build it into my habits, I wasn't ready for that. I wanted to win. And if you weren't going to help me to win, I don't want to have anything to do with you.

And, you know, I think of this quote by Byron Katie, and it says, you know, everything happens for us, not to us. And I'm curious now that you look back at your journey as an Olympian and, you know, this kind of results orientation, how do you think this happened for you? It's a mix of everything. It's not, I love that quote. I like Byron Katie. I do think that we are a culmination of the lessons that we've learned. Right. So, and I do think lessons continue to come up until you've learned them. I think for me, it's more of that. I've learned the lessons and I've actually taken the time to learn them. Right. Like I've taken the time to really think about it. Is this the right way to go

about it? I'm not sure. Let me read about it. I mean, I'm a voracious, like learner of what it means to be human and success and performance. And so I made it not a game, but I made it something that I wanted to learn about because I wanted to learn the lesson. I didn't want to ignore the lesson. I think it's less of like, it's happening to me for me. It's more like, are you willing to stop for a second and learn the lesson? And at what point, cause you're going to have to. Yeah. And what are some lessons that you've learned, you know, as you think back to your athletic career and how they maybe inform your work now as a performance coach? Um, I think it's, I know it sounds trite because people are like, well, when I'm in it and

I'm going after the Olympics, it's really tough and it's, you've got to focus. But I think there are a couple of things. One is it's a long game, right? Like who you are today is going to be different. It's a, it's a long game. You're playing the long game, not the short. And that, that means like that, that drives a lot of behavior and decisions. And the second one, and the thing that comes up for me is joy. I didn't really take pleasure from it. For me, it was like, I have to do this and I'm defined by this and I got it like Brian and like, but there was some joy in that, right? Like there is some joy in like knowing what your body can do and like pushing it to its extremes. And then what can I do? There's, it's a different mindset, right? So can you have a more open, um, learning, not even growth mindset, but can you be joyful in the process? Even if it's not

like immediately, like this is the most fun thing, but it's like, I enjoy it. And I'll say one more thing else and I'll, I'll let you chime in. I know I'm talking a lot, but, um, I had a conversation yesterday with one of the Valor coaches, Inga. Um, um, and she's a Lithuanian javelin thrower Olympian. And she said, you know, being in the Olympics is like, um, is like, is like poker, right? So you put a lot on the table and you don't know if you're going to win and you don't know how big you're going to win. So it's a risk, but you know, what could you, what could you take away from that? Right. So she said, you know, you could either be in the thrill of it, or you could be focused on like, I've got to make this happen. I'm so afraid

it's not going to happen. I'm so afraid. So you can choose how you want to approach the poker game. You can be like totally enthralled and thrilled or you can just be like, oh shit. Right. So you can, you can do either. And I think I was always the latter, like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And I think, I think about that even today, like, can I approach my work? Can I approach things with more levity, lightness, joy, openness? Yeah. Instead of fear, anxiety, kind of this fear of failure. What if, what if it doesn't work out, a lot of future-based thinking instead of like being really in the present and enjoying the moment. And with the Olympics coming up, you know, in a month or so, I think it's so your message is so important. And we can apply it in so many different areas, because so many times we can be really results oriented and kind of fear based fear of

failure instead of really, like joy and lightness. And that's, you know, there's a lot of cool research on self compassion and how selfion does lead to sustainable performance. It takes work. I mean, honestly, I'm going to call myself out at 40 years old. I have a lot of what people call success. It takes work. I have to choose every day to either go through anxiety, choose things based on anxiety or choose things based on this openness, this joy, this levity, this other place. Right. I have to choose it every day. It's not like it's on autopilot. So I just want to make that clear, too. I have to choose it every day as well. You know, I didn't make it to the Olympics. I had some dreams of getting there. And my mind kept on getting in my own way, to be honest. That's what led me to this work. But I have to choose it every day as well. And I know we're going to continue to talk about

this idea of why is it that we're continuously doubting ourselves and what is it about human nature? I'm curious, kind of before we go down that road, you know, our podcast is called the High Performance Mindset. And what does that mean to you? That's a really interesting question because we've talked about that at Valor too. What's a high performance mindset? I think about goal orientation. I think about people striving and thriving in their lives. And how do I become the best of myself in this moment? And how do I

reach my goals? And it's really, I don't want to say outcomes based because we just talked about outcomes, but high performance mindset is just how can you get into a mind space every day so that you can live to your fullest, right? That's how I think of it. Like you have a full potential. You can choose to live every day to your full potential. Even if the full potential is I'm tired, I'm going to take a nap, right? But it's intentionality around it. Performance mindset and living that performance mindset is being intentional with your life, knowing this is what you have

and taking it for what it's worth every single moment and doing it in the way you want to. For me, that's freedom. That's power. Yeah. And that's beautiful, Iris. I'm also thinking about how like potential is really unlimited and it's endless.

And, you know, when I say that out loud, I think, you know, that I'm really the only person that's in charge of my potential and finding it right. And that can feel a little anxiety provoking. Wow. I'm really the only, I get to choose what my potential is. Right. But it also can be really exciting and inspiring that really it's up to me and it is a daily choice. Yeah. I think also when we talk about potential, we're also saying success, right? Like I think part of it is it's a lot around self-validation, internal validation is at some point you have to choose what your success looks like, you know, and I make this face because I'm like, Hey, so what do you want to do? And some people look at me, they're like, what do you mean?

What do I want to do? What should I do? I'm like, I don't know. What do you want to do? It's like, it's like, who's on first? What do you want to do? What should I do? What do you want to do? You know, it's like, people need to get some clarity around that. Right. So it's really important, right. In order for you to live potential or to live success to first start with, what do you want? Yep. Right. What does, what does your day-to-day look like if you're living the life that you want? Right.

And you, you do have control over that. And I think it's hard for people to really understand that it takes a lot of work. That takes work too. Sorry to say. Yeah. Yeah. It all takes work. That takes work too. Sorry to say. Yeah. Yeah. It all takes work. It takes work to live our potential. Those two questions are really powerful. Like what do you want and what does your ideal day-to-day look like? What, what, you know, if you were intentional,

what would you be doing? I don't think people in general spend a lot of time thinking about that. You know, what is it that I really, really want? We're kind of just on autopilot. And Iris, tell us a little bit about your work at Valor and just like the type of clients that you work with, because that will set us up for, you know, what we're going to talk about next. Yeah. So we get a great variety of people that we work with, with clients from sales, high-performing sales teams and sales leaders to healthcare, which is fascinating because we work with people who are very, very good at their craft in both places, sales and in healthcare. So at Valor, that's kind of where we focus on and where our clients come from. And I know you have a couple of healthcare clients who are at the top of their game and they're pretty amazing.

Definitely high performers. Yeah. So they're all high performers, right? So they all kind of are doing what we're talking about is they want to live at their full potential. They're trying and striving in their life. They're, they're trying to, trying to reach that. They're striving. Striving is a great word for that. They're striving. Yeah. And what do you see the barriers of reaching potential? You know, what do you see that as, as you work with some of these people? And even as you, you know, think about your fencing career and Olympians that you've met, what do you think

are the barriers to our potential? Oh, goodness. We've got lots we can talk about, but you know, the two that come to mind is of course, like there's a reason why we always say like, you're your own greatest enemy, right? In fencing, we always say the greatest opponent is yourself, right? In martial arts, it's your greatest opponent is yourself. All those movies talk about that, right? And so you, you can limit your own potential. And we can talk about that because we, we want to be safe. We want to be safe. So, you know, going for the next job, speaking of all of that takes us out of a comfort safety place. And I do say that high performers that become successful learn how to hack the system. We all come with it with a, like, it's like out of the box at Best Buy. And our

system is to say, stay in the cave, stay safe. Don't do anything. Don't move. Just, just do this, right. Get in the box and stay in the box and high performance go like, what if I put my toe out of the box? And then they figure out like, Oh, it's okay. You know, and then they start to step out of the cave. Right. So the more you kind of step away from that safety or learn ways to kind of come back to the safety when you kind of take it a risk. Those are the high performers. They learn how to hack the system to be less afraid or to actually raise their bar of what what makes them afraid. But, you know, there are barriers there like you will get to a point and then there's another box and there's another fear. Right. So we have walls. All of us have those. I mean, we're humans all of us have those I mean we're humans we always have those

so um the second thing then goes into the first is um we don't have to do it alone high performers feel like I gotta do it all by myself yes I was listening to a podcast like it's a completely it's farcical that like that you do nothing in this world by yourself, really. Like, if you want to succeed at anything, there is nothing that you're going to succeed in that you're not going to have some help. So to be that, like, to be in that place is not helpful. So when you're stepping a toe out of the box, when you're kind of reaching forward, when you're hacking the system, just remember there are people around you that are supporting you and make sure to surround yourself. So those, those things are barriers. One, thinking you're doing everything by yourself. And then two, you know, we naturally just have barriers. That's what I'm saying. It's like, we just, we are, there's always something that will always want to push us back into the cave that will want to push us back into safety. And then we have to decide, do we want to continue to push our threshold of fear? Or do we want to kind of stay where we are? And neither is bad or good. It's just what you

want, what you want, and being intentional with that. Yeah, you know, Iris, I'm thinking about how we're the only one really that limits our potential, right? And you're right. There's, there's these barriers. I love the idea of like these boxes and these fears. And the more you push yourself, they're, they're going to be another fear. That's going to be in the way that you're going to have to overcome to reach your potential. We were talking at the beginning of the call before we hit record about imposter syndrome and kind of what we're seeing in our clients. And I had Valerie Young on the podcast a couple of months ago who wrote a great book on imposter syndrome, which is this belief that, you know, people are going to find you out

and that, you know, you know, just being less confident in yourself and your skills. How do you see that play out even with athletes or, you know, you work a lot in healthcare and in sales and the business world, what are you seeing there? Well, it's complex and I'm still a student of it. I'm a student myself. I have my own imposter syndrome issues. The question, and I even asked my husband, you know, and this was eyeopening because I thought, oh, imposter syndrome is just for women. And I, and I said to my husband, he just became an executive vice president. And I was like, so do you feel like an imposter? He's like, everyone feels like an imposter. I was like, oh, men feel this way too. Like they don't feel like they're, you know? So he's like,

I'm just a goofball just trying to make it at work. I was like, well, you're kind of successful goofball. So I don't know, you know, so it's so funny how our self perception, we have to live with ourselves every day. So we know all our ins and outs. So we, we definitely call ourselves out on it. My question to myself, as I'm learning about it, as I'm talking to people is why, like, what is, what is, we are really amazing. Human beings are just amazing machines. Yeah. And we have great mechanisms, like great, wonderful mechanisms to help us to thrive and to strive, right? Like we just have crazy potential in this human system. Why is the human system built in a way

that when we get to a point that we want to get to, we suddenly tell ourselves we're not good enough for it. Like, it's just wacky. You and I work with physicians at Harvard and they're like literally the best, like this one woman I was talking to is like, I am the only person in the world that does this surgery like this. Yes. And then we're talking about like imposter and confidence. And I'm like, this is bananas. Like, where are we? Yeah, what is happening to us? You know, you know, I think that there's multiple factors at play here. I think there is biological, like what you said is, you know, our brain is here to keep us safe. And, you know, so years and years of biology. So there's that, but also there's all these social

pressures. And I think about even my kids. And, you know, there's, there's that, but also there's all these social pressures. And I think about even my kids and, you know, there's some people that are building them up like their Harvard, right? We're constantly compared to each other within education. Valerie Young has seven perfectly good reasons why we experience an imposter or we experience the imposter syndrome, which is, you know, these are several of them. But it is really fascinating that, you know, when we get to these higher levels, however we define that, we can experience this imposter syndrome. Yeah. A couple of things. You said two things that were great where, you know, there is this innate system that we have to kind of hack. And then there's these social things that I think you and I, as coaches start to work on is like, who's validating you, right? Why are

their validations important? I mean, Brene Brown's work is really important around validation too. So, you know, we work a lot along those lines. You're absolutely right too, is like, you know, the way our construct of our systems and education are always like, what have you done for me lately? Right. So it's like, what is the outcome you're, you're being measured on these, these different outcomes. So I, I, I get all that. There's another one too, where I think is pretty prominent as well. I don't know if maybe it resonates with other people is like and you have this like ideal of what this person is going to be it's like wizard of oz right like wizard of oz is going to be this person and like magical and floating and amazing and then you get there and you realize it's just a dude behind a curtain it's the same thing for you it's like i'm the ceo of. And I realized it's just me, like me, me who like, you know, gets acne,

me who like, you know, you know, trips and falls on things like me who doesn't always get it right. Like me who does all these things. Like you have this thought that this person up on high, like knows all their stuff. We're all just the same human being. I think we forget that. And so that for me is a huge piece of that too, is how we exalt the others. And then once we get there, we're like, oh shoot, like I'm supposed to be the wizard of Oz, but really I'm the man behind the curtain. Oh, I love that idea. Wow. That's so powerful. Thank you for saying that. Isn't that so true? So, so far, we've talked a lot about, you know, this mindset of athletes and Olympians and then business, right? And we've been talking about healthcare and sales. What do you see, you know, Iris,

those top athletes or business people do differently related to the high performance or just related to mindset. Right. So I think there are a couple of factors. So I think that there, as you said, too, and we've kind of said and I'm naming it here is there's a high level of support. OK, so there's you're not doing it by yourself. There are people that you really care about that are really validating you. And, um, um, what else do they have? Uh, well for athletes, a little bit of genetics too. So it's just, you know, but, um, so support systems are really important also. Um, and I know people don't want to hear this luck is part of it too, is like for me, um, um, and I'm getting to some points of like things that you can actually control, but like, I want

to get these other things out of the way too, because at the time I was coming up and becoming one of the best fencers, the United States wasn't that great. So we, we had a coach that kind of thought differently and he kind of pushed us differently. And then all the kind of ingredients kind of came together to the opportunity. So I wanted to jump off from that point. Right. So there's a little bit of luck of opportunity, but the difference at that top level for me is being prepared for those opportunities. Right. So that's why I kind of started here. Right. So yes, there's some luck, right. There's some circumstance here, there's support. Right. And yes, there's some luck, right. There's some circumstance here, there's support. Right. And then there's, you know, being ready for those opportunities. People who are at

the top are disciplined. I hate to say that. Right. So like, cause we don't want to hear it. I was talking about it the other day. It's like, it's unsexy to like do the day-to-day right. To Malcolm Gladwell and um Adam Grant were talking about this today they were like typical performance versus like the ultimate performance right so what we're talking about is people are willing to grind day-to-day and just do yes show up some of my best athletes at the fencing club that started, there were kids that were not that great. They like really weren't that great, but they just worked at it. They just came in and kept working and consistently working and getting themselves into the group of working. So, you know, there's no difference. My husband, myself, the same way we just get up, we get going,

we eat well, you know, we take care of our bodies. we take care of our minds, we do what we need to, right, to every day to get to that point, because we know every single day counts. Yes. Yeah, I think the same, Iris, I'm thinking about, I do a lot of work with USA Track and Field, and the trials are coming up this week. And right there, their day is not very glamorous. They get up, they work out, they take a shower, they go work out, they eat, they sleep, you know, it's like repeat, right? And sometimes we, right, watch the Olympics and we see these performances that are amazing, right? And then we don't really think about what's under the iceberg and the sacrifices and the grit that it takes to like, continue to move forward. Yeah. And when we talk about grit and I know I haven't read your book yet and I see it behind

there and it's on my list for summer reading and I hope everyone else feels the same. Um, I, I, you know, when we talk about grit, we're not saying like, um, oh, you gotta like tape the ankle when it's broken and just keep on going. You know, we're not talking about that. We're talking about the literal discipline to do the same thing every day and do it well and do it purposefully and do it intentionally and do it mindfully. That's literally what we're saying, but it is one of the hardest things for people to do to stick to habits, to stay constant. My young, my younger clients are like, I'm so bored. I'm sorry, but this is it. This is it. There is no like mecca of this. There isn't like this

optimal performance in Olympics every day. It is literally showing up, showing up for yourself, showing up for others and doing the best you can every single day. It is not any more simple than that. Yeah. Awesome. When you teach about mindset, what do you hear yourself say over and over again? Is there any things that you notice? Yeah, we talked about this a little bit and I have so many that I like to grab from, but I'm going to steal from my original mentor that taught me how to coach is Dr. Adam Naylor. And he, he said, you know, you can take a step back to thrive forward. I was like, ah, when he first said, I was like, eh, what is that? And it's like, I literally say it every day to my clients because we talk about emotional reactions, triggers to things, the stress that we feel. And I was just talking to one client this morning and we were feeling like, you know,

she gets a text and then immediately, you know, this emotion comes up like, oh, they think I'm not good enough for this or or they think this, or this is happening. And Oh my God, I'm so annoyed or frustrated by that. And so we, we kind of, and this is where we get in front of ourselves. This is where we hold ourselves back is that we allow the, and Daniel Kahneman talks about this is don't trust that emotion is that we don't, we don't take a second to think about and let our brains catch up to the emotional reaction we just had. And I'm definitely a person that's like that too, is like, we don't have to respond to the emotional reaction. Viktor Frankl talks about it too. It's like that pause between the emotional reaction and the action that you take is one of the most powerful places you can be. You don't have to respond. Yeah, you don't have to respond.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Take a step back to thrive forward. And then take a step back, I'm hearing means like reflection, it means pausing, taking a breath to ultimately help you reach your potential or move forward with what you want. And the space, when you first start, the space is long because if you have ingrained narratives and someone writes something and let's say someone writes something and immediately I'm like, oh, they think I'm not doing my job well, or my boss writes me. I'm like, oh, she's micro-magic and she doesn't think I'm doing it well. And then I start to go in a spin. If I have never stepped back before the step back is really long. You really need like real big space because you've never done it before. Then as you work on it, the step back gets smaller and smaller. So it is a skill that you have to have to do it. And,

and the thing is you asked about what's the bridge between and connection between sport and, and, and business or life. It's the same kind of thing. It's like in fencing, if the ref makes a bad call, right. As a young athlete, I'm like, like I'm going, I'm going Andre Agassi on this person. Right. So like I'm getting into it. And then, you know, as you get older as an athlete, you realize like, that's not going to help me because I'm not focused on the right thing. Cause I got to focus on hitting the target. Now I can't focus on changing this guy's mind. I have to focus on the target. I have to focus on what's actually important and what I can control. So the same thing, taking a step to thrive forward is exactly that, right? Rough makes

a bad call. It's not about you. It's just a bad call. Get back to the line. Think about what you can control and hit the target. Yeah, there are triggers all day long that we could go into an emotional spin related to, you know, so a great idea and concept, take a step back to thrive forward. Can you share with us another way that you teach about mindset? Maybe it's an analogy or a concept. Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I'm trying to think of my list of things. I think another piece that I'm finding as I'm working and the bridge again is as business people we often forget that the mind and body are in concert that we try to um we try to use our conscious mind to to get through things like emotional reactions or triggers at work. Um, and so I think

more and more of my thought process is how to continue to help with either breath or movement to help somebody because we can't just reason through something. Right. So like a lot of times our emotional reactions are completely unreasonable and yes, like we can sit down, make a list of why this is right or not, but we can also get up, move, walk, yoga, meditation, whatever it is that you want to do. Um, punching bag, fencing, fencing sword, whatever it is, is I'm realizing that, um, we need to integrate the mind and body together. And especially when you're sitting, you know, I've sat more in my life now than I ever have in my whole life. So I'm realizing more and more of what my clients are experiencing, right? So they're, they're going in an emotional tailspin and then it's sitting in, in the body. And then imagine like it, it compounds on itself. And then we wonder why we're like high

rates of cancer, right? Cause the body has nowhere to put that emotion, that feeling, that physiological stress that actually happens. So you, you put it in your body and it, and it gets released somewhere or somehow. So you might as well control some of that. So I'll just say another one of like Dr. Emily Nagoski's work on stress cycles and completing the stress cycle has been something I've worked on a lot of like, you've had a really stressful day. The last thing you do is come home and then jump into being, you know, jump in being a mom and it's all good. Like you need to relieve that stress. And how do you relieve that stress? And some people use, you know, drinking or smoking, going out, whatever drugs or whatever to try to placate that stress or to calm the stress. But the body's like, look, like we got to get we got to run it through the system. We can't just like, think of it or drink it out. We got to like run it through the system. So I love that work. And

I continue to be a student of how do I help my clients understand the, the infinite connection of mind and body. Iris, I could talk to you all day. I know that we're closing to the top of the hour and I'm like, Oh boy. How do I summarize what we talked about today? First, I'm grateful that you just shared your journey about getting to the Olympics and these perfectionistic tendencies and your coaching and just all the things that you learned in that journey. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I know I was learning a lot just as I was listening. And I loved, you know, the, here's a few points that I really took from today. We talked about kind of finding joy in the process. So I'm going to encourage people to think about that. How are you finding joy in the process? We talked about the importance of like high level support and being prepared and disciplined. So I'm going to encourage people to think about how are they disciplined today and what do you maybe need to double down on related to your

discipline. We also talked about how we're our own greatest enemy and making sure every day we choose to, I'm thinking about decreasing the weeds in this garden that we have of our mind. I love your analogy of like the Wizard of Oz and the person behind the curtain. And then this last part about taking a step back to thrive forward. Iris, how can people reach out to you if they want to connect with you or learn more about your work? Thanks so much for asking that. I'm a lot on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, Iris Zimmerman with two N's is a Nancy at the end. And I'm a lot on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, Iris Zimmerman with two N's is a Nancy at the end, and you can reach me on LinkedIn. I've I think that's the best spot to do it. I've got Twitter as well as Zorro underscore Iris. But I think LinkedIn is the best place to do

it. I have a website, but I can't even remember. CoachIris.com, something like that. I know Google me with two N's. So otherwise with one N, you find someone other Iris Zimmerman. I don't know what she's up to, but. I'll put it in the show notes. Do you have any final thoughts or advice for people who are listening today?

You know, I just would say, you said something about self-compassion. It's something I work on a lot. I think high performers lack, many high performers lack that. So, you know, if you're going to do anything once a week, do something for yourself, do something for yourself,

pat yourself on the back, do something nice for yourself. And I'm saying that as someone who never has done that before, who is working and practicing it so do something for yourself once a week that's for you and only you love it thank you so much Iris yeah way to go for finishing another episode of the high performance mindset I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes

and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.