High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 45: Learning to Love Mistakes and Adversity with Public Speaker & Clinical Sport Psychologist, Dr. Eddie O’Connor

Episode Date: May 10, 2016

Dr. Eddie O’Connor is a public speaker and clinical sport psychologist in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In this interview, Eddie talks about how the best have a total acceptance of the barriers in front of them. He describes how perfectionists can become "Perfect Perfectionists" and how to embrace mistakes. He suggests that when we receive a compliment to "marinate" on it - take it in, feel it in your heart, and appreciate it. Lastly, Eddie discusses the importance of mindfulness and how to pay attention on purpose without judgment. To connect with Eddie, find in on Twitter @SportsDrEddie or at www.dreddieoconnor.com

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff, and I'm excited that you're ready to listen to an interview with Eddie O'Connor. Eddie is a public speaker and clinical sports psychologist from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and Dr. O'Connor is a fellow and certified consultant with the Association for Applied Sports Psychology. As you can tell from this interview, Eddie is passionate about helping performers of all levels develop their skills in a really tangible way so they can be consistently at their best.

He's a member of the United States Olympic Committee Sports Psychology and Mental Training Registry. And he's given over 300 media and live interviews and presentations. So I think that you're going to find Dr. Eddie very entertaining and passionate. And there are several things that I would encourage you to listen for in this interview. These are the things that really stood out to me that he talks about different within performance psychology. So Eddie talks about how the best of the best have a total acceptance of the barriers in front of them. They're not bothered by adversity. And he also describes how perfectionists can become perfect perfectionists. I have never heard anyone use that term and love it because he describes how the best really embrace

mistakes and don't see mistakes as a problem. And so he works to convert perfectionists to perfect perfectionists. And then I love his suggestion about when we receive a compliment that the best really marinate on it. They take it in, they feel it in their heart, and they appreciate it. And then towards the end of the interview, Eddie talks quite a bit about mindfulness, and he gives us a tool to work to stay present in the moment without judgment. I think you're going to really enjoy this interview with Eddie O'Connor, and as always, you can reach out to me or Eddie.

So my Twitter handle is at mentally underscore strong. Eddie's is sports Dr. Eddie, so you can find us both on Twitter. And I love getting comments or messages from you via email. So you can always reach out to me at syndra at syndracampoff.com. And if you like this podcast, it would be amazing if you could share it with a few friends. That would be amazing to help us deliver a positive message each and every week. All right, without further ado, let's bring on Eddie. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Cindra Kampoff. And today I'm excited to provide you an interview with Eddie O'Connor.

Eddie is a public speaker and clinical sports psychologist from Grand Rapids, Michigan. So Eddie, can you tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do? Well, first, thanks again for having me on here. This is kind of what my passion is to do, which is actually to reach as many people as possible with really practical information about how they can change their lives, improve their performance. You know, I found out early on, you know, that I got frustrated early on working with athletes one-on-one because I just couldn't save the world that way. It just took too long.

I had somebody that I didn't know come up to me and say they had read my newsletter and went on and on about how it changed their life. Right away, that was just amazing to me about how some of the things that by this point I think are just common knowledge really aren't. Like in a public speaking venue or when you get to talk to a lot of people at once, it may not certainly be in depth, but you can really make a tremendous impact on changing a large number of lives in an hour, 90 minutes. So yeah, that's the passion about what I do. When I see people change and I see their lives improve right in front of me, it just keeps me at a constant high. That's awesome. So practical information to improve your life and your performance. change and I see their lives improve right in front of me, it just keeps me at a constant high.

That's awesome. So practical information to improve your life and your performance. I think the listeners are going to get so much out of this interview, Eddie. Well, and hopefully some entertainment too, because gosh, if it's a lecture, it'll be boring. So we've got to make it fun, but I know you'll do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell us briefly just how you got to where you are in your career right now. Yeah. Well, gosh, I mean, I guess I was an athlete growing up. I didn us, you know, briefly, just, you know, how you got to where you are in your career right now. Yeah, well, gosh, I mean, I was a I guess I was an athlete growing up. I didn't have any talent, but I worked really hard at it and I was a runner and I loved it. And I was I mean, I was a runner, really identified with it and had an injury in college, knocked me out of it. And I knew I always wanted to be a psychologist. I was reading Freud when I was in high school for fun. I knew what I wanted to do.

And the last class I took was sports psychology elective. I already knew I wanted to be a psychologist. And I was like, what is this? I was immediately fascinated and said, OK, that's what I want to do. So I wanted to stay as a psychologist, became a clinical psychologist. But then I wanted to specialize in the things that athletes would suffer through the most. So I specialized in pain and injury rehabilitation. So for the last 16 years, I've been a director and chief psychologist of a multidisciplinary pain team. So I've got experience with like health leadership, but I've really very recently let that go so I could concentrate full time on my number one passion, which is, you know, helping athletes in every

way possible. So that's my story. Well, you know, I know you get to work with some of the nation's best performers, especially now that you're working full-time in sports psychology. So what do you really think separates those that are just outstanding and unstoppable from those that don't necessarily reach their potential? Yeah, and with all the work that we do and all the skills that we emphasize, and there's so many things, but very recently in particular, I look at what is it that slows the athlete up and why don't the ones that make it, what do they get past? So I guess what I would say is that the very, very best have a total acceptance of the barriers in front of them. It's a complete willingness to go through whatever they need to go through,

and they're not bothered by it. They expect it. So, yes, there's the talent that obviously is necessary if you're going to get that high, and there's a work ethic. But it really goes into actually a story I like to tell is there's a couple of words that drive me nuts, and one of the labels is an overachiever because i don't i don't understand how that could possibly be it people because it puts so much about oh well they've got this talent or this or that or the guy's not big enough or she's not strong enough and they're

they're kind of automatically assumed that they're going to be limited and because they've got this great mental toughness or something else that they're overachieving and i think that that undersells the mental game for one in the sense that we can't get anybody to do more than they can. But I think talent, as important as it is, is so rarely maximized until you bring in the mental toughness, psychology with it. So I don't believe in overachievers at all. I just think that those people are achieving at such a high level because they're the few that while they may not have the measurables, they're absolutely maximizing their talent. And what would happen if the truly physically elite were able to do the same? So I don't like under overachieving.

And I think it's that that willingness to do anything and everything to get where you want to go. And one of the things you said really early on in that answer, Eddie, was that you said, you know, there's a total acceptance of barriers and they're not bothered by adversity. They're like expecting it. Can you give us an example of what you've seen? You know, obviously don't use names, but what do you really see them? What kind of barriers do you think that the best athletes expect? Yeah, no, there's common themes. I think one is a pain tolerance. You know, and again, everybody knows this, but the idea of, you know, how much you have to be willing to do it. So let's just take an endurance athlete, for example. You know a little bit something about marathons, right? A little bit. And I think you would agree. I mean, there are

so few marathon runners who will, you know, collapse at the end and truly, totally be spent or be spent during the whole time. I mean, I've seen it happen on occasion, but for the average marathoner, I mean, it really is a choice of how much pain are you willing to endure for how long in service of speed. And so there's one of the differences is that, you know, the more elite athletes, you know, certainly have more training, but they're also much more comfortable feeling that discomfort, which I know is one of your big points. But I think that also extends into training and sometimes even to life and life balance. You know, a lot of time with the high level athletes, we have to help them find the balance within the imbalance because they can't be an elite athlete without being imbalanced. You know, they do have to sacrifice family, other occupations, recreational interests, any number of things that they have to put on hold because it requires a tremendous amount of time. And so a lot of my athletes, as they're progressing and trying to

make a leap from whether it be high school to college, college to pro or something like that, that's always a big discussion that we have is that, you know, a bigger part of their life is going to be spent dedicated to their craft. And there's nothing wrong with not having that drive. You know, being balanced is a worthwhile goal, too, but it's really not compatible with truly elite performances. You know, Eddie, there's a few things that you said that I've been thinking quite a bit about today. I ran a 10 miler and it was sort of an easy day for me. But I was thinking one of the things that I do that's different is I can push to this edge during my marathons. Like I, I do know what you're talking about. And I'm not, you know, an Olympic marathoner. But I do hear what you're saying. It's like it take tolerance with discomfort,

right? And I also like what you're saying about balance with the imbalance that it's, you know, just maybe impossible to have everything so balanced in your life. And sometimes we, we talk a lot about balance, but is that really even possible? Yeah. And I would be stronger on both those terms. Like when you say maybe it's impossible, it is impossible. And yeah, really start looking at it realistically. You know, the ESPN highlights and everything else like we just it just doesn't show the whole picture. And you and I know this, you know, behind the scenes and seeing what happens day to day, not that there's false advertising about it, but, you know, just like social media and stuff we

talked earlier about, you know, it's like social cropping. It's like, well, when you look at people's successes, you see their highlights and not a bunch of highlights. Life is mostly spent in all the boring, faithful day after day grind that nobody sees, nobody appreciates, nobody compliments, nobody wins an award for, but is absolutely necessary. And that comes at the cost of sleep. It comes at the cost of friends. It comes at the cost. And it's a choice that you have to make. Again, not evaluate it as good or bad or what should we do.

It's just simply the price. Yeah, it's not always going to be fun and games and it's not going to be a series of highlights. Absolutely not. Yes. What do you see, Eddie, that your athletes really struggle with? Gosh, the things I probably deal the most with is performance anxiety on any number of levels. But there's two flavors of it that I really enjoy working with and actually can kind of relate to.

But the idea is a really strong athletic identity. People will come to me, obviously, because they care about their performance. I see a lot of athletes who are in slumps and are nervous. And I found a very strong correlation between how much they're invested in their athletic identity. And, of course, we all like to identify ourselves as athletes, and that's positive. But when their performance is the only thing, when their worth as a human being, or I have high school athletes where a couple of them being like, you know, if I don't make this free throw, my father, I'm going to lose his love.

And I've actually had an athlete or two say something almost like a direct quote like that. But it's often implied. And half the time it's the parents, you know, kind of saying, yeah, this is important. But I've seen it just as much where some really ideal parents are just complimenting the good, letting the kid own it. But, you know, we get love when we do well. You get love that way. I get love that way. You know, people compliment the good jobs. the kid own it. But, you know, we get love when we do well. You get love that way. I get love that way. You know, people compliment the good jobs. And so even if we're not being criticized or pressured, we don't want to lose that. We found it as a way to get it. And so if our athletic performance is a way that we're earning love, well, gosh, then I can't go out

and play a baseball game because every pitch determines my worth. And so I do work a lot with athletes on that. I don't quite like saying I'm putting sport into perspective. You tell that to an athlete and they're like, look, you already don't understand. Sure, absolutely. But at the same time, there is a bit of truth in that, you know, if it is all that they are, that becomes very, very dangerous. And they will not be their best with that kind of pressure. So I work with my athletes on understanding who they are within their sport, how to have what I like to call sport integrity. Like, what's the way that you play the game, regardless of the situation and the pressure? Can we focus more on that? As you're

talking about, and I'm sure with a lot of others, it's my way of going about the process, not the outcome. Absolutely. Their sport integrity and who they are. And then that leads into another group that I like working with is my perfectionist. I mean, they're fun. I mean, I love perfectionists. I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. And I mean, it's important. The research shows, you know, if you can be perfectionistic and you strive for perfection, you need that to be great. But then there's the perfectionistic concerns that get in the way and can really burn athletes and people out. So how do you how do you get that balance? And I find that a fun challenge and a really rewarding one when people can truly be their best and excel themselves along the way. I think about one of Dan Gould's studies that suggested some of the high level performers are adaptively perfectionistic.

So they have high standards, but they can adapt on the fly. So, you know, for those people who are listening who might call themselves a perfectionist, what suggestions, what strategies, what advice do you have? Yeah, really, the key thing when it comes down to is what's your relationship with mistakes? You know, if you continue to take mistakes as something that is negative. Now, let me clarify mistakes. You know, if you're making the same mistake over and over again, that's a problem. If you're making a mistake because you're not giving your best effort, that's a problem. Fix those. Yeah, for sure. But when you're giving your best effort and, you know, let's take a typical athlete who maybe isn't

as skilled as somebody else or is trying something new for the first time and they're failing. You know, why would you put so much pressure on yourself? I mean, I go back to the idea of like, how did you learn how to swim? How did you learn how to ride a bike? Can you tell me about your parents when you were growing up? Did they show you a video on how to walk and then yell at you when you fell over and over again at two years old because you were stumbling? And then we get some laughs. But the idea is, no, no, no. It's not until like kindergarten that all of a sudden when we start getting graded and we get now teachers and coaches and parents and everybody just trying to train us

all in the good spirit about what to do, what to do, that we just become consumed with a life filled with criticism. Now, the criticism is deserved and it's needed because at two years old, I don't know anything. If I'm learning something, I don't know anything either. I could still learn. But when that's all we're hearing, you know, we kind of just start to want to hear some of the good stuff too.

And what's missing is that mistakes are the only way you will learn. Now, most of my perfectionists, they don't, they don't, they're like, yes, I know. I know. I know I'm not perfect and I know mistakes are necessary, blah, blah, blah. And they say it so mindlessly where they – I'm like you have to – like look me in the eye and tell me that you believe this. Not one of them do. Not one of them believe that mistakes are okay or helpful. And they're like – I remember one volleyball player I had.

She was like, but they're not okay. She's like, if they were okay, nobody would be upset when I would make it. You know, the fans wouldn't go, oh, when it happens. You know, the coach wouldn't emphasize over and over again how we're supposed to do it okay. You cannot tell me that mistakes are okay in sport. So I'll tell my perfectionist, I was like, you know what, you're right. They have negative consequences. In that way, they are not okay.

So let's stop lying about it and fighting with this. Can we bring in that pain? We start talking about the willingness again. Can we let that pain of those mistakes be there and at the same time right next to it, notice that there's something to learn from that and that the real tragedy is to let it go by, beat ourselves up,

show how much we care by being intolerant of these mistakes and not take the information that that mistake offers us. Now, when they get that, then they become what I like to call the perfect perfectionist. Nice. What do you mean by perfect perfectionist? I love it, Eddie. There's a way to do it. I am not going to get my perfectionist to stop being perfectionistic.

I want my surgeon, if I have to get an operation, to be perfectionistic. I want my coaches to be perfectionistic. I want the person who makes my fries get an operation to be perfectionistic. I want my coaches to be perfectionistic. I want the person who makes my fries at McDonald's to be perfectionistic. All right? I want good stuff in life. There is nothing wrong with it. So I am not going to take that. And mistakes, they are a problem.

That's why they're called mistakes. That's why people don't like them when they happen. So, yeah, by being a perfect perfectionist, I'm like, let's continue to strive for perfection. I want to be the perfect perfectionist. And the way to do that, paradoxically, is to leave some room for mistakes. Not laziness, not on purpose, but understand, more than understand that it'll happen, but embrace them. And then say, hey, what is it? And then go out and make a different mistake tomorrow. Make a different mistake every day and watch what happens to your performance.

Awesome. Awesome. So for those people who are listening, we could encourage them to go make a mistake today and a different mistake tomorrow. So they really learn from those mistakes and they can become perfect perfectionists. Yeah. And again, sometimes the idea is, you know, so I have to go out and make a mistake. It's like, well, no, no, they'll find you. Yeah, for sure. For sure. You don't need to try to make them right. Yeah. Well, it's something that you had said earlier. I think it was, you know, the idea about being comfortable, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable, your point number seven. You know, that whole idea is putting yourself into

that uncomfortable zone of the risk, as you like to talk about. And so that's where it shows up. I mean, if you're taking the risks, if you're doing something new, if you're pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone, the mistakes are going to happen because you're doing something for the very first time. And I've never seen anybody in the history of the world do it perfectly all the way up from birth to the Olympics. You know, I mean, something's going to happen eventually at some point in between. And so if your emphasis is on striving and doing something new, the mistakes will meet you there. You don't want to obviously become obsessed about them, but you just got to let them be part of the process. Instead of being something to avoid, there's something to welcome and learn from. I mean, it's a tool. So what would you describe as a signature technique

that you use with your athletes to help them master their mindset? And kind of what I mean by signature technique is something that, you know, you tend to always teach your athletes. If I can, if you want to use it from a technique standpoint, I guess I, gosh, there's a number of them, but one that I would maybe pick out with the way the conversation is going is how do I get across this concept of willingness? Because I have found over the years that people can can get it. But then when I've seen them actually have to go through it, they go right back to believing their negative thoughts or their their struggle to make themselves comfortable. And it all of a sudden, when it becomes applied, they really don't know how to be willing. Wonderful concept. great speech. How the heck do I do that when the pain is screaming? And I really,

in every fiber of me, doesn't want to feel it. And so I use this metaphor that actually I just created about a week and a half ago. So I don't know if it's a signature yet, but the athletes are loving it. Okay, awesome. The way I would present it is that I want you to imagine whatever it is that you really, really, really want. And if you could put a shape to it or something like that, sometimes I'll pick something out of my office and I'll say, okay, this statue is what you want, and we'll talk about what it is. So for you, maybe it's a particular marathon time or it's an achievement in your job,

but it's something that you know you really want to work for. It's not going to be easy and you want to go get it. And I'll have the athlete say, okay, now go get it. And they kind of look and wait for me to do something. But they'll easily just reach out and grab the statue set. And I'm like, okay, you got it, right? That's what we think it is, right? You want it, you go get it.

That's the end of the sports psych book. That's not how it happens. That's never how it happens. I was like, now let me tell you about real life. So we put it on the table. And I say, imagine that this whole tabletop is filled with the thickest thorn bush. There are thorns. I mean, you can't find a way in. You're looking around.

There is like no opening in there. And what you want so desperately is in the middle. So now their eyes are getting big. And I'm like, I don't have any thorns for the purpose of this illustration. And I was like, but what would you do? And they sometimes callously say, well, you know, you've got to go through it. And, you know, I know you've got to go through the pain to go get it. I'm like, yeah, but let's slow down. Let's talk about what this really means. Willingness is you have to go ahead and stick your hand in that thorn bush. Now, if you imagine yourself doing that in the garden, like for real, that means that you're getting now things that are cutting into your

skin. And your first reaction is to what? They admit, pull my hand out. And isn't that true? Isn't that what happens in our sport experiences? As soon as it starts to get tough, we find a way to dissociate our minds. We don't really pay attention. Even if it's in that little stretch, it starts to hurt. We pull back and instead of holding it 10 seconds, we only hold it five, right? Always our body and our mind is moving to get more comfortable. We don't like it. We don't even notice it. The intention that you have to know that you are going to get cut and the way that you have to open yourself up and continue to move forward. So you start to do it. And then the thorns, they go in your hands and they start cutting and you feel the blood trickling down. And now you're distracted. You're not focused on what's in the middle and what you're going after.

You're focusing on how much you hurt. So what do you do? Normally you'll stop and then you'll stay in that miserable place. And isn't that what brings you here today? Sometimes I'll say where you are right now, stuck where you still want that other thing, but you want it conditionally. You want it without the thorns. And I'm here to tell you,

I ain't a gardener. I can't get rid of these things. Yeah. You know, Eddie, that makes me think about the first, you know, at the beginning of our conversation, when you talked about what separates really great athletes from those that, you know, just do okay. And you said a total acceptance of the barriers. And you said not bothered by adversity, but expecting it. And I think your example of the thorn bush and what their goal is really, what they're really working towards and going after is an example of those thorns or the adversity that is going to happen. And so the key is, and where we really spend some sessions working on, is how do you practice your focus then in doing that? How do you keep your eye on the prize in the middle? Because that is your motivation. And again, to reinforce the things that you do, I know you talk about you have a clear purpose to your work. So that aspect is

what has to remain central in the work that I do. We call it, what do you value? And it's by doing that that you still direct your attention there. You don't think about the thorns, but you allow the cutting, the digging, and everything else to go in, and you willingly pay the price. You willingly pay the price. You no longer are striving for comfort. You no longer have rules or regulations about how it has to get done. Whatever the sport demands of you, you're willing to pay it, and you pay it willingly. You may not like it. You may not enjoy it, but you continue to move forward, and you will continue to allow yourself to get scratched. And if the athlete can really, and most people have been scratched, you understand that pain, then they start to understand, okay, now I know how to apply it. For the first time,

now I know exactly what to do when these thorns show up. I like your analogy. And I think, you know, it's so vivid. So I'm just picturing my hand in the thorns and, you know, how that's going to feel. So I like I like your example, Eddie. You know, you just mentioned, you know, keeping your values or your purpose or your why front and center. So tell us, you know, what's your why? Why do you do this work? And, you know, because we believe here at the High Performance Mindset that knowing your why and keeping it front and center is absolutely important. So tell us why you do what you do, Eddie. Yeah, well, I touched on it at the beginning. I mean, for one, I mean, I can't imagine doing anything else. I mean, I think one of those few people that just knew this was what I was called to do and, you know, been blessed to actually have, I think, the skills to do it, to be super comfortable, to be in front of, you know, I don't care one person or a thousand or a million, it doesn't matter. You know, I, I believe so much in the message and I want to share it so much with as many people as possible and I just can't do anything else. So, I mean, that's why it's like,

I just can't imagine another path. I'm going to be in trouble. You're so passionate about it. And I can tell that it's like every part of your being is this is your calling to impact people in a powerful, positive way. You know, we've been talking a lot about failure and mistakes. So, you know, would you be willing to share with us a time that didn't go so great? Maybe we call it a failure because I do agree with you, Eddie, that we, you know, for us to get really great at what we do, we have to fail. And that's how we learn. And that's how we grow is by getting out of our comfort zone. So would you be willing to tell us about a time that you failed and what you learned from it?

Just one time. Yeah, I know. Maybe I'll give you a philosophy or maybe a big overview story. And you'll really maybe see through this story too, why I'm so passionate about my perfectionist and achievement and I believe these other things. It's because, I mean, I guess it's my life story. I felt very in control. Like, you know, I wanted a PhD.

I wanted this. I wanted to get married, get a house, have this kind of career, blah, blah, blah. And all the mental toughness techniques worked. You go out, you work on it, you go get it. And I felt completely in control of my life and things were going really well and really believed in high achievement. In fact, I'm even embarrassed to say my business card, even for a while, had a quote on it because it said, because average isn't good enough. And I love that because I'm like, you know, yeah, you got to go get it, go get it. Well, then, you know, midlife crisis hit and I lost everything. Like I truly lost everything. I had to start to look and be like,

what happened? I'm not a bad person. What happened to lose everything? And I just started to realize that my whole worldview was off. I was that person that earned love, that earned through achievement everything. And the fact that I was successful at it just made it worse because it just went on for decades. And then all of a sudden, because that's actually not real life and that's not what really matters and that's not what really people care about. And it turns out that's not why people love me either. I had to undo all of that. And it has been a long and a painful process. But I've had to kind of reshift. And much like all the lectures that I'm giving, I don't tell athletes to do things that I'm not doing myself. That whole idea of learning how to be okay with mistakes is hard. That idea of understanding that you are so much more than your performance is hard to learn. But it's true. It's absolutely true. Your performance is what you do. It's just what you do. And do it well. But I tore up those business cards about average not being good enough because I'm like, you know what? Sometimes it is. And as we talked about the balance within the imbalance, I mean, I'll be excellent in some things, but I really stink at some other things. And I have to be okay with that because I choose,

I've only got limited energy and I cannot do it all. And you know what? It turns out that's okay. And I forget that still, but it's a daily reminder. It's a checking in on the reality of what's my life like and believing what people say for all those perfectionists out there that have compliments bounce right off their chest, marinating them. I mean, and I mean that very seriously by some neurology studies I've talked about. You'd get a compliment, it falls off you so quickly. And I've done that my entire life. Take a good 10 to 15 seconds and just think about what that person said. Look in their eyes and see that they're telling the truth, even though you don't believe it. And I know many of you out there, you're not going to believe it. But if you don't away. But the positive stuff doesn't have that same type of biological impact. So through a disciplined practice of marinating in the good stuff, just to start to let it seep in. And I could feel it in your heart, you know, how difficult it was. Two things that I want to point out, the marinade in the good stuff, that's a really, really strong point. I think there's a lot of people who are listening who maybe do get a compliment and they don't listen or they don't take it in, you know. But that's such a gift that someone is giving you.

Tell us, Eddie, how your philosophy has changed. If, you know, you were sort of like the average is not good enough. And, you know, how do you feel different now? Well, now, you know, I take the focus off of me. You know, it turns out the world doesn't revolve around me, Sandra. As much as I would have liked that, it doesn't. And it turns out everybody probably is more concerned about themselves than they are about me. And again, you've heard these things. But what I find really to be the gift is really modeling how I've done my sports psychology career is that that's never been about me. It's been about the mission.

It's been about, oh my gosh, there are these things that absolutely will change your life. How does everybody not know this? How does everybody not have this? So when I get up in front of a large audience and I'm talking, like I don't see anybody. At the same time, I see everybody. And I'm like, you all need to get this. Like, here's this gift. I just everybody and I'm like you all need to get this like here's this gift I just feel like I'm Santa Claus I go around from place to place and I'm giving the gift of you know the more people I can talk to the more engagements I can get you guys have to know this and yeah like Santa go around the world and and just give it and and that's that's more selfless and so that that's just a it's a much less pressured way to live.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Oh, and then when I see their faces, it's just so rewarding. And it really doesn't have much to do with me anymore. And that's good. Less of me, more of others. I love this quote by Dr. Amen. And he says, at age 20, you think everything is about you. At age 40, you realize that maybe it's not. And then at age 20, you think everything is about you. At age 40, you realize that maybe it's not. And then at age 60, you realize that like no one has ever been thinking about you to begin with. Yeah. So I think that's a really good point that sometimes we can feel like it's all about us, you know, maybe drama on our team or even at work, what our boss says to

us, you know, it's many times has nothing to do with us. And, you know, Eddie, you also said maybe this is something you've heard before, but I think there's a difference between, like, hearing it and living it, you know. And I think there's a big difference there. So I can't wait to see you in your Santa Claus costume. Yeah, you can do without the costume, but. Okay, there we go. Tell us about an aha moment that you've had in your career.

You've already told us about a few of those. What's something that you've really learned along the way? Yeah, well, a really big one. I like this question because, so it's in the middle of me figuring out how to redo life. And so I'm exploring new ways. And this is where my sport career changed, too, is that I moved from more of the psychological skills training and that to more of the mindfulness approach. And so I'm practicing mindfulness perfectly, getting training and doing it. And I'll never forget.

So there's this thing of working at the hospital and there's this big thing that happened where we had to actually move clinics. We were told we had four weeks to move this entire practice. We've got hundreds of patients, any number of providers. I'm the leader of all this stuff. Normally, to be quite honest, I'd be furious. What the hell? Are you telling me? I got to do all of this? We're talking about a major physical move in four weeks. I mean, it's just so complicated. And I'm not going to say that I wasn't upset when I heard this. I had no choice. I was told. So my leadership was threatened. I didn't feel heard. That really drives me nuts, like maybe several others. So anyway, normally,

like this probably would have bothered me for a while. And I've been practicing mindfulness for a number of months. And so I remember as I was driving to work the next day, I should still should have still been angry. But I wasn't. And I'm driving to work and my mind is thinking about what I needed to do. And I was like, okay, here's what I got to do today. We have to call this person, get that set, double check with this, set that meeting. And I remember as I was walking into work, very calm, like it was any other day, but it certainly wasn't. I was like, I stopped, I stopped outside the door and I was like, what, what's the matter? Why am I not upset? What is going on? And I really, I was like,

I didn't recognize myself in the moment. So, you know, the aha. And I was like, is this mindfulness? Is that what this means? Is this what happens? And I was like, huh, pretty cool. And so we go on, you know, two, three weeks, I'm still practicing mindfulness. You know, it's about a week and a half before we're supposed to move, get a call from the administration, oh, you know what, things changed, you don't have to move. So now I've just wasted two and a half weeks of working extra, doing all this and that, putting everything else aside for this, and I'm expecting to be all angry, and what's my reaction?

Oh, okay, cool. And then I go, there it goes again. Is this mindfulness? The thing about it, and again, the lesson from this and this aha moment is that when you work with all the things that you teach, when your listeners are listening about this, don't just sit and listen to these tapes and these podcasts and read these books and think that you get it up here and I'm pointing to my head. There's one thing to understand it. You have to experience

these things. So do your daily mindfulness practices, engage those goals, put yourself in those uncomfortable situations, because all these tips, they're great, but they are nothing if you don't do them. And again, I knew that, but I'm telling you, I could see a difference in the way that I teach mindfulness from a perspective of somebody who practices mindfulness versus beforehand and learning it as a technique and trying to teach athletes as I was learning too. One's more academic, and it's still true, but I'd like to believe I'm so much more effective because I know what you're going through. Love the story. Tell us about what you think, how would you define mindfulness? And I mean, gosh, who's like the guru. And it's, you know, it's a state of attention, paying attention on purpose in the present moment without judgment.

And as long as there's obviously lots of techniques about that, but it differs from meditation, which, again, might have sort of type of feeling that you're trying to generate, because mindfulness is about observing and being neutral and just being in the moment. It's different than imagery because, of course, again, you're working on an outcome. It's different than relaxation because you want to change your physiology. So a lot of times athletes will get confused with these other techniques and they're all worthwhile and they're all good. But mindfulness is that intentional direction, directing of attention, which i love because what it requires you to do is to keep letting go of all else so again i tell my athletes i'm like you know i know

i after my midlife crisis i read four books on how to let go and i didn't learn a darn thing because all they kept doing it saying was do it you know let go and here's why and this is good how how well i find this is how because by continually redirecting your attention noticing when you've lost it and bring it back just like for example on the breath you sit in a not a relaxed position because then you fall asleep but in more of a an upright position on the edge of the chair and you just continue to go back to the sensations of the breath coming in and out as they're coming in and out you will think but you just let the thought go and go back you're practicing two wonderful things that are essential for sport to learn how to play in the moment, which we all talk about we want to do for the zone.

You do this through a mindfulness breath practice. You let go of everything. You bring it back to the present moment of what you want over and over and over again. And I have yet to find anything that comes remotely close to being able to develop that because that's what you want when you play your sport. Yeah, you want attention in the present moment and you're not thinking about what the mistake that just happened or you're not focusing on the outcome that, you know, what might happen in the future. And my strong belief, very strong belief is that, you know, we have all these great strategies, but if you don't have the strength to do it, you can tell me how to bench press 400 pounds. And I can have great form.

But if I am not strong enough to do it, I will not be able to do it. And I think a lot of our sports psychology techniques can be the same way. They're great and they're golden and they do work. But there's a percentage of athletes, a percentage of human beings that just don't have the strength to do that yet. And so, again, you can't know the mindful technique. You can't understand mindfulness and think that you'll get it. You have to do it on a daily basis and develop your brain. What I liked what you said, Eddie, was redirect your attention in the present moment, right?

No judgment and continuing to do that on a daily basis will help you be more mindful. And in concentrated training, you can't live this way. I mean, if you don't attach to your thoughts, you'll never move and get anything done. So we don't expect you to live this way. That's another thing. Okay, I should be mindful all the time. No, you have to actually buy your thoughts and act on them. It's the same way of saying, look, I've got to be strong all the time.

Yeah, but you've only got to do push-ups for 10 minutes every day. It's a training period. I really want my athletes to respect that the mindfulness is a training period so that you have those aha moments like I talked about on the way to work. I didn't do that intentionally. It's just I had a different brain that knew how to handle life better. And less anxiety and less stress, and you were going to move in this highly, highly improved outcomes. I mean, it was like it was killing it. And yeah, performance really goes up because you just automatically drop what's not essential. The best part about mindfulness training is that when it shows up, it's just automatic. It's not another thing that you have to do. It's what allows you to totally be invested in your sport and get back to what you should be focusing on.

You know, Eddie, we've talked about so many of the top 10 traits of high performers. So let's go to that list. And if anyone who's listening would like to get that list, you can just go to my website, DrCindra.com and just put in your name and your email and then it'll be sent to you via email. So which of these traits, Eddie, do you think that you exhibit most right now in your life? Yeah, you know, I like going through the list. There's a couple of different times I've had different ones. So I love your question. I was going to say I think I was too gritty, number one, earlier in my life. constantly looking at what's my motivation behind this? Why am I struggling with this? Again, as part of the mindfulness practice has allowed me to do it. But I think that's really

where I'm excelling now in my personal relationships and my parenting. You know, I understand I can't say I welcome the mistakes. That'd be a lie. I still am struggling with that, too. But I'm aware of my struggle with mistakes. I'm aware that even when I choose the wrong way or I go back to an old habit, I can watch myself do it, understand why I did, and then do better the next time. And I'm at a point in my life through this self-awareness that I feel really good about, well, actually, it's like the more I work, the more I realize I'm broken. And there's more work to do. But through that, that's okay. And I'm really enjoying the depth of understanding myself just for the sheer self-improvement of it. And which of these traits would you say that you're working on right now?

Number nine, they are self-compassionate. Yeah, for sure. You know, I read a few books on that, looked at the research on it, taught a number of athletes on how to do it. And it was like talking to myself as I was talking to them. But I'm better. You know, it's you have to have room for it because, you know, I have to live with me all day. We are everything we do matters and what we everything we think matters. And so it's, you know, I got to practice that self compassion and and it'll turn outward. But, you know, if I'm going to treat everybody like that, you know, if I'm going to treat other people that way, why wouldn't I treat myself that way? And I would never let anybody treat me the way sometimes I've treated myself. I'm like, we'd get into a fight if somebody said some of the things I say to myself. And I would

actually viciously defend some of the accusations that I've thrown on myself. So, I mean, yeah, there's really no place for that kind of beating up. So I'm working on being more self-compassionate. Eddie, I would say of those top ten traits, that's the one I'm working on, too. With all your positivity? I can't imagine a negative thought goes in that head of yours. It does creep in, you know, or, man, I put out a video that I don't, it's not perfect, right? And then I wish I had this perfect or this perfect on it. So I've really learned to be more compassionate with myself.

And then what I realized is that I can be, when I show up as more compassionate with myself, I am more real and open and connected to other people when I'm not trying to be perfect. And I would say that at times in my life, I've been a perfectionist too, and maybe still consider myself as a perfectionist. I don't know. But I definitely agree with that. The ninth trait is they are self-compassionate. They know that people are not perfect and they get over their mistakes quickly after learning from them. And they realize that everybody, you know, that it's important to show self-kindness. So I appreciate you saying that, Eddie. So let's go to the speed round. So what I'd like you to do, Eddie, is just tell us the first thing that comes to mind.

If you could recommend a book or a resource for our audience, what would it be and why did you choose that one? The Mindful Athlete by George Mumford. Obviously, with all the stuff I've been talking about, it's a topic that's really good. And the criticism of the book is that it's not scientific. I think it's also its strength. It's very conversational. The guy who taught Michael Jordan and the Lakers.

And so it's, I mean, he knows what he's talking about. He's lived it. It's a very personal story. So in that way, it's inspirational. It's a great introduction to mindfulness if you kind of want to understand what it is. So for that reason, I think it's a great read and very true based on my experience as well. I just got it. I have not read it yet, Eddie, but it's next to my bed.

So I look forward to it. What's one word that people describe you as right now, Eddie? Passionate. Oh, man. That's the word I was just thinking of. Yeah, I guess that's it. I feel things very, very strongly. And I love to feel so strongly.

And so, you know, it's, yeah, passionate. It makes you really, really good at what you do and connecting with others. What's the best advice you've ever received? The best advice I've ever received? The best advice I've ever received was to be myself. And I wish that I started following it long before a year or two ago. You know, I mean, again, tying it all back into this life change, you know, if I think about that, people have always said it, you hear that all the time, there's only one you, you know, and all this other stuff. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, seeing what people do and I want to be like that or I want to do this.

And, you know, it really comes out that there really is only one me. And, you know, God's got a plan for me that nobody else can fill. And, you know, maybe I would like to be Michael Jordan or maybe I would like to do this or do that. But somebody's already got that job. And so my life is much better spent and I am becoming more happy and at peace discovering what it is that my heart and what I'm built to do and being true to that. So yeah, the best advice is to be myself. And I just wish I started that really in high school. That's the place to really own it. Yeah, love it. And what's the success quote that you live by and how might that apply to us? You know, I started to say, I guess I would say I'm quoting myself part of being being myself.

I'm not going to quote anybody else. But but a mantra that I've been putting through my head in the last couple of years that I've really realized that everything I say, everything I do, everything that I think matters. And everything that I don't say, don't do, don't think matters. There is nothing, any moment that I'm alive that doesn't count. And I'm either moving in the direction that I want to go or away from it. And I'm not even talking about goals. I'm talking about really even starting at the purity of thought that what I watch on TV and the people that I'm around, the conversations that I have, the books that I read. If I feel like I'm just

taking a break or if I ever say like, this doesn't matter, the one cookie I want to eat if I'm in training, it does matter. That's a lie. If if I start at the basics of what I'm thinking, well, then that's going to affect my heart, which is then going to affect my actions. And so there's nothing that doesn't count. So it's kind of a long explanation, but if you make it a short quote, everything I think, say, and do matters. And everything counts. Eddie, you've given us so many things to consider and to help us improve our performance. What advice would you have for those high performers who are listening?

What's the message that you want to leave us with? I guess we'll end where we started, which I just believe that the key of it all is developing your willingness. You know, it is so sexy and exciting to find out what to be great and all the positivity and all the motivation. And part of my speaking, what I want to do is I want to touch people emotionally, you know, not get them all riled up and, you know, and then burn out in a day or two as soon as the first bad thing happens. If you can realistically and honestly look at what you have ahead of you, And if it really means that much to you, then go ahead with a willingness and a commitment. Forget motivation. Motivation disappears.

Go ahead with a willingness and a commitment. And if you find that you don't want to do it, that's okay too. That's okay too. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you have to go professional. Maybe, you know, Peck, maybe you'll cure cancer. Like you can do something else. So if you find that you're not willing to pay the price, no matter what the coach says or parents want or your potential, then don't, you know, because you won't be successful. You know, the amount of willingness you have to have.

Eddie, I want to honor you for giving your whole self today, your whole passionate self. I could feel your realness and I really, really appreciate that. I know that the listeners appreciate that as well. And here are the things that I wrote down that really stood out to me in this interview. I loved when we talked about at the beginning about how the best of the best, you know, have a total acceptance of the barriers. They are not bothered by adversity, but expect it. I thought your concept of being perfect perfectionist was just really clever and unique, something I haven't heard anybody ever talk about before. But you know, it's like what that means to you is embracing the mistakes and knowing that you can really learn from the mistakes and not letting those eat at your confidence or get you down.

And I really liked what you said about mindfulness in terms of paying attention on purpose without judgment. And I think your stories were really vivid and helping us understand how to do that. And then here's the last one, big golden nugget. When someone gives you a compliment, marinate on it. Listen, take it in for 10 to 15 seconds. Look at the person in the eye and just acknowledge that they gave you a compliment and put it in your heart.

So Eddie, thank you so much for your time and your energy today. You're amazing. Thanks so much. This was fun. Again, I enjoy this and I hope we reach lots and lots of people. We will. Hey, the podcast has already been downloaded into 70 countries. So there's lots of people who are listening. So Eddie, if we would like to reach out to you on social or email, or let's say we want to hire you because we loved hearing your message and maybe we want to hire you for, you know, to work individually with our athlete or, you know, have us come and speak to our business or our team. How could we reach out to you? Yeah, well, there's any number of ways. I'm active on Facebook, Dr. Eddie O'Connor,

on Twitter at Sports Dr. Eddie, S-P-O-R-T-S-D-R-E-D-D-I-E. My website, DrEddieO'Connor.com. Again, spelling wise, it's D-R-E-D-D-I-E-O-C-O-N-N-O-R. So all of those have my contact information. I'm based at a Mary Free Bed Hospital in Grand Rapids, but would love to come to you, speak to your organizations. Again, the bigger, the better, the more people I can reach and promise to make it engaging, fun, emotional, you know, so we can touch people's hearts as we go ahead and do it. And like you, Sindra, you know, let's just go out there and change the world, make it a better place. At the same time, though, do it in a realistic way. You know, again, people say, are you a motivational speaker? Then I'm like, well, I mean, I'd like to think I'm a committed speaker or

commitment or something like that. But yeah, let's let's look at the realism of it because you can still do it. But gosh, it's so worth it. So let's get some practical information out there that really speaks to people's hearts. And by all means, you know, give me a call. I also work with athletes over the Internet, too. So if you're not in Grand Rapids and want some individual consulting, we can find a way to do that. That's finding me. Awesome, Eddie. So for those who are listening, we'd love to hear what's it out to you about this interview. You could send Dr. Eddie a tweet at sports Dr. Eddie or myself at mentally underscore strong. And as always, if you enjoyed this podcast, we'd love a comment or a star rating on iTunes.

It just helps us reach more people and get a positive message out in the world. So Eddie, thank you so much for your time today. Outstanding. And do catch up with you soon. Looking forward to it, Sandra. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset.

If you liked today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend, and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Underscore Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.