High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 49: “Get Your Rookie On” with Nicole Detling, Ph.D., HeadStrong Consulting & U.S. Olympic Teams

Episode Date: May 31, 2016

Dr. Nicole Detling, Professor in Kinesiology with the University of Utah and Mental Skills Coach with multiple Olympic Teams (US Speed Skating, US Snowboarding Team, US Freestyle Aerials Ski Team), sees that the best are resilient and deal effectively with adversity. 1) They “get their rookie on” and are always growing and learning. In the podcast, she describes one of the phrases she uses frequently: 2) “Embrace the suck, but don’t get stuck in the suck.” She provides 3 of the 10 protective factors of resilient leaders which are optimism, social support, and failure is feedback. Nicole outlines a popular equation, E + R = O (Event + Response = Outcome). Her point is that you have no control over the events in your life or sport but have full control over your response. She believes it helps to plan to fail at something every day because 3) “failure is a possibility and a probability.” Her final advice for high performers – or those who work to reach their greater potential – is to be with who you are with right now – to be fully present with the person right in front of you. To contact Nicole, visit: www.headstrongconsulting.com or send her a tweet at @HeadStrongDoc.   

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff. And today I'm grateful that you're here ready to listen to an interview with Nicole Dutling. Now, Nicole has many different hats. She's a professor at the University of Utah, and she also works with all of the athletic teams at the University of Utah. She's had an incredible privilege of being the sports psychology consultant for many Olympic teams.

So she's worked with the U.S. speed skating team, the U.S. snowboarding team, and the U.S. freestyle aerial ski team, just to name a few. So she has an incredible wealth of experience. And, you know, I love when I bring people onto this podcast because I love talking to people every week about mindset and high performance. I love the conversations that I have an amazing privilege of getting to have every week. It's definitely one of the things that I really look forward to every week is these interviews. And, you know, there's some people who come on this podcast that really seriously show up as themselves and bring immense value bombs to all of you who are listening. And Nicole, she brought it today. She brought it. And Nicole,

if you are listening, I want to thank you so much for providing value today to the listeners and to everybody who's listening, because I know that you're going to get some serious strategies and value out of this podcast and this interview. So, Nicole, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. But, you know, I could point out many things that she talked about because it's like every question I asked her, she had a unique thing to say, just kept on really bringing it. But there's three things I want to point out. I really loved what she said about getting your rookie on. Love that quote. And she talked about really what that means is always growing and learning and how she sees the best of the best, always growing and learning. And they don't they don't want to they don't want to fail. And so they really work to bring it. And they're always looking to grow and learn. And she also talks about how she uses that in her career and just always continuing to grow and learn.

She also talks about one of the phrases she uses often, which is this, embrace the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck. So she talks about what that means and how she's helped people do that. And then the last thing that she talks about towards the end of the interview is she talks quite a bit about failure. And she talks early on about how the best of the best really hate to lose, but they're not afraid to fail. And so really what she means by this is she says failure is a possibility and a probability. And her advice for us is to really kind of wake up just with the mindset that we're going to fail at some point today.

And when we just wake up that way and know that we're going to fail, we can take more risks and be fully present and really just give it our full, our full effort every single day. And it was interesting because I interviewed Nicole on Friday morning and then really loved the interview. And I was thinking about it kind of all throughout the day. And Friday night, I was getting ready to go out to a wedding reception with my husband. And I was really excited about it. It was an athlete I've worked with, a football player, and I was so excited to see the team and see the coaches. And my husband and I got all nice and fancy and got all dressed up. And we were in the car and we were driving there. And I said, I just looked at my invite again, just to double check, you know,

and I said to him, oh man, you're gonna kill me, and he just looked at me, and I was like, the wedding reception is tomorrow night, so it was Friday night at 5 30, but the reception was Saturday at 5 30, and I thought about what Nicole said, you know, how every single day we fail. And I just was thinking quite a bit about that. And I was like, you know, that allowed me to stick it over that, you know, mistake and just enjoy, enjoy the night and have a great night regardless of where we were. So we did have a great night, didn't get to go to the wedding reception, but still had a wonderful night together. So I look forward to hearing what you think about this interview with Nicole Detling. I would encourage

you to send a tweet to Nicole, or you can reach out to me as well. Just tag us. Tell us what stood out to you about this interview. And her Twitter handle is headstrongdoc, so headstrongdoc and mine is mentally underscore strong. So without further ado, can't wait to hear what you think about this interview with Nicole Detling and let's bring her on. Nicole, so why don't you just start us off and tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do. You know what, Cyndra, my passion is what I get to do every single day and it's the coolest thing in the world. I always tell people I don't have to go to work. I get to go to work, and I recognize that's a really fortunate thing to be able to do because a lot of people in this world really struggle.

So really what my passion is is helping people create, find, and achieve their greatness. I always tell people I just teach people how to do life a little bit better, how to enjoy life a little bit more. And by doing so, my passion continues to grow. I continue to cultivate that passion and to cultivate that greatness within other people. And what better job in the world is there than that? Nice. So find, achieve, and create their greatness. So tell us what you mean by greatness. You know what? Greatness is defined by every individual and every team I'm working with. I mean, I go to a lot of teams and they're going to say things like, well, we want to win the national championship. And I say, well, who doesn't? Okay, let's talk about what makes you a little bit special. What do you really want out of life? And so helping people kind of discover

what they really want, how to get there, and then the means for which they'll be able to do so. And then just guiding them along that path. And it's so cool to see the progress and watch their actions and behaviors. And honestly, the biggest reward for me is just standing in a corner watching the excitement and the joy and the pure passion that comes out of those individuals every time they achieve those goals. It's so cool. I can just tell your energy and your passion for what you do. And I like what you're saying. It's like, you don't have to, but you get to. It's a privilege. So, Nicole, tell us a little about, you know, how you just got to where you are in your career. You've had just such an amazing opportunity to work with so many different Olympic teams, you know, all the sports at

the University of Utah, a really cool company called Skullcandy, among other opportunities. So, you know, tell us how you got here. Sure. Yeah. So I was, I actually was a college athlete myself, small school, liberal arts college, not that big of a deal. But I was double majoring in psychology and sport science. And I just kept thinking, man, which one am I going to choose? What am I going to do? How am I going to, I wish there was a field that put these two together. And actually my dad called me up one day and said, Nicole, did you know there was a field called sport psychology? My mind was blown. And so, Cyndra, this is back. I'm dating myself. This is back in the days where what did I do when I found this out? I went to the library and I looked up a Dewey decimal card catalog system. That's awesome. Psychology, right? And so I'm looking up and I'm starting to read all of these things. And I was just

hooked. I was fascinated. And it was crazy because it was my junior year and I played basketball and I ran track and my senior year I kind of I became my own case study without realizing it I recognized through some of the readings I was doing that I was my own worst nightmare I mean I was holding myself back I was beating myself up I had no idea until I started reading this and so I somewhat became my own case study. And my senior year, I was a phenomenally better player than I had been not a phenomenal player, mind you. But the difference between what I was doing up until I learned that to after was amazing. And so once I found that, and I realized how much better I was, I thought, Oh, my gosh,

everybody needs this. And so I went on to grad school and it was a very fortunate decision for me to go to the school that I went to because my mentor was absolutely amazing. And then I went on to get my PhD and I really think that's where I had a lot of doors open for me. So I studied under one of the greats. I studied under Keith Henschen and Keith is absolutely one of the greats. I studied under Keith Henschen. And Keith is absolutely one of the greats, one of the legends within the field. And I think really he opened, he was a gatekeeper. And he opened a lot of doors for me and was able to give me some opportunities that maybe I wouldn't have gotten so early in my career without him. But yet I was able to keep

those, right? So once I got in the door, he got me in the door. And then my work and my reputation kept me there and got me some more opportunities throughout the way. So it's been such an amazing adventure, amazing experience. And I'm pretty fortunate to get to study under someone like that. Yeah, that's outstanding. You know, I have similar experience that I got really interested in sports psychology because of my own experience and sometimes struggled, especially as a college athlete. So that's what fuels me today. And I'm sure that's similar for you. It's just like how much that fuels you just to see yourself as your own case study and to see how much you improve.

I was a disaster. I had no idea, right? I had no idea. And so it was just such a big turnaround that I just wanted to help everybody I possibly could. Nice. Awesome. So, Nicole, you have such an opportunity I just wanted to help everybody I possibly could. Nice. Awesome. So, Nicole, you have such an opportunity to work with some of the nation's best college athletes, pro athletes, Olympians.

What do you really see as, you know, their distinguishing factors? What makes them different mentally from others that don't get to that level or don't succeed or thrive at that level? You know what? I would say two words, diversity and through resiliency. So resiliency, I really believe that those who are the best at what they do, the very best of the best, man, they have a lot of haters. They deal with a lot of adversity. They have a lot of stuff thrown their way that many people find themselves giving up in those moments. I just can't take it anymore. And sure, we all feel that from time to time.

I just can't take it anymore. But yet the ones who want it so badly, they know why they're doing what they do. They want it so badly that they're going to do whatever it takes. They're always going to find a way. And so they get knocked down, they get back up. They get knocked down, they get back up, they get knocked down, they get back up. And what I found is the ones who are the very best of the best, and I'm talking like, of all the athletes I've worked with, less than 1%. Okay, and I've been doing this for

18 years. And so you can imagine how many athletes I've had over that period of time at different levels. We talk a lot in sports psychology about three different mindsets, well, two different mindsets a lot, but there's a third one that I think is most important. Those three are those who are afraid to lose, and we don't want people who are afraid to lose. We usually work on those who are wanting to win, really working hard to win, but there's a third mindset that I think is really special when you find it, but it's incredibly rare, and it's very difficult to cultivate, are those athletes who hate to lose even more than they love to win. And I don't mean they're afraid to lose, but they hate losing. They hate it with a passion. And so they'll do anything and everything they possibly can within the rules of the game, of course, to make sure that doesn't

happen. And I think that's a really special thing that the absolute best of the best cream of the cream of the crop, world champions, gold medalists, multiple gold medalists. That's what those people have. And I think it's a very, very special mindset for them. And sounds like just like an extreme competitiveness. You know, they don't beat themselves up, but they just don't like to lose. So you said it's hard to cultivate. What are the ways that you see that people cultivate this? Right. I think a lot of it is experience over time, life experiences over time, competition over

time, probably something that was instilled in them from a very young age. But yet at the same time, not to say that their passion is any greater than anyone else's, but their resiliency is so much stronger. Their resiliency is really what takes them to that next level to the point that they hate losing so much that they're pushing themselves beyond what they may have initially thought they were capable of. They're willing to go the extra mile. They're willing to do one more rep.

They don't cut corners. They put themselves out there physically, mentally, nutrition wise. They're doing everything they possibly can, finding the resources, doing what it takes in order to get there. And this one percent you're talking about that hate to lose, how do you see them deal with a loss? Or, you know, like, let's say they get fourth place at the Olympics instead of the gold medal. You know, how do you see them really rebounding from that? What do they do afterwards? Yeah, no, that's an excellent question.

I've actually been considering writing a book for a while called Fourth about those fourth place people who no one ever knows about and no one ever really pays attention to. And it's a really hard place to finish, to be honest. It really, really is. But what's interesting is how they handle it. And I would say probably their resilient behaviors and qualities, their protective factors are so well trained that we kind of go through, if they're working with me, we'll kind of go through a process of one of my signature techniques, essentially. I'm known for saying a lot, embrace the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck. And so really giving them an opportunity to experience those emotions. Yeah, you know what?

It does suck. You don't have to try to pretend like it doesn't, right? And so I'm really big on getting people to really experience what they're feeling in those moments and maybe a couple of days, maybe a couple of weeks, depending on the, you know, the, the, how big the event was and how important it was to them. But take your time and allow yourself to feel the emotions so that you can work through them and then have a plan to move forward. Don't get stuck in the suck. Yeah. Actions, behaviors, plans, things like that. We talk about those. We talk about the emotions when they're experiencing those emotions. And I really encourage them to experience those emotions. And then let's come up with a plan so you never have to experience it again.

Nice. If you experience it again, you're going to know how to get through it. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, Nicole, you said like one thing about protective factors and you said, you know, depending on if you get forced, depending on how you rebound from that, it's kind of based on your protective factors. What do you mean by that? And can you explain that to us? Yeah, sure.

So this kind of comes from some research that I've done with a couple of colleagues of mine where we came up with these ideas of these protective factors specifically related to resiliency and leadership. And my partner, I have a partner, a business partner, who we have been going to some different government agencies, so within Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and we've been teaching resilient leadership

to high-identified leadership government employees. And what we do is we've identified these 10 protective factors for if you have these protective factors in place they lead to resilient qualities and behaviors then some adversity or stressor happens and there you have a more positive adaptation to that and so the 10 I mean I'm not going to give you everything I'm going to make this podcast forever some of those protective factors are things that people already have in place, but then developing them more or working on getting one more protective factor than you already have. And some of them are pretty obvious, such as social support, you know, having a strong social and personal network, cultivating those relationships and networks, having your people that you can go to, people you can rely on, your resources in place for whatever may happen.

Having people you can feel safe with and talk to when those things happen. Because, as you know, the catharsis of just venting sometimes is really all you need. So have people in place for those things, people who support you. We also talk a lot about optimism, possibility thinking, and having a positive perspective. So just being really optimistic about the the future regardless of what's happened in the past it doesn't have to identify your future it doesn't have to determine what happens next and so what can you do what little behavior can you change to give yourself a different outcome the possibility of a different outcome so we talk about that another protective factor is knowing that failure means feedback just because you fail doesn't mean you're a failure.

You failed. Okay. Learn from it and move forward. And the more you fail, the more likely you're going to succeed if you learn from those failures. So you move forward different based on the feedback you get from that failure. I think those are three of the big ones. We have, there's seven more, but those are different things that we talk about to cultivate for really working through those adversities being more resilient and getting those protective factors in place can lead to more resilient behavior so there is a more positive

adaptation when some kind of a stressor or adversity occurs. I appreciate you just like giving us a snapshot of those 10 factors just so people can get an idea of what you're talking about. So, Nicole, like what do you see the athletes that you work with or the clients you work with, what do you see them struggle with? Because even the athletes at the highest level do have some struggles and, you know, no one is sort of like what I would maybe describe as perfect mentally. So what do you really see them still struggling with? Yeah, Cinder, there's two things. In the 18 years that I've been practicing, there are two things that stand out more than anything else. And I don't care if we're talking about professional athletes, Olympians, college,

high school, two things that people come to me more than anything else. And it's probably the same in your practice as well. But those two things are anxiety and confidence by far and above. And what I found is that anxiety and confidence by far and above. And what I found is that anxiety and confidence pretty much have an inverse relationship, at least in the athletes that I work with, in that the higher their anxiety, the lower their confidence, the lower or more controlled their anxiety, the higher their confidence, and it works in reverse as well. And so I find that someone who comes in and says, man, I'm really struggling with my confidence, probably also has some more anxiety than what they're used to. And the same thing,

somebody comes in, man, I'm so nervous. I can't even concentrate. I'm puking before the game. It's insane. Well, their confidence is probably pretty low because they don't feel that they're capable or qualified to meet the demands of the competition. Absolutely. I definitely see confidence in my practice. I think the other thing that I see a lot of is just how to deal with mistakes and failure and how to rebound from that. And even if it's on a really big stage, like the national stage, but also, you know, could just be failing, you know, in the youth soccer game and making a mistake. So those are the two things I really see.

And I think that anxiety and that bouncing back from failure are somewhat similar also, because they're having anxiety about repeating that failure, or they just made a mistake. And oh, my gosh, it's coach gonna pull me out of the game. Well, there's some anxiety, right? So I think, yeah, probably, we're probably talking about very, I bet. So yeah, and there's a lot of overlap between the concepts. And you're right, like they relate to each other. So you've shared with us quite a bit of topics related to mindset and sports psychology and mental training. What would you say is one thing that you usually always cover with your clients? Sure, yeah. So I found that over the years it's kind of metamorphosed a little bit,

but lately the big thing that I'm on to now is that embrace the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck. And one of the best ways to do that is through a formula that's E plus R equals O. That's event plus response equals your outcome. And a lot of times this comes down to controlling the controllable. So essentially events are what we get really nervous about, right? There's some kind of event that's going on, whether it's the competition or where it's going to be held or it's the level, it's the Olympics. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's a really big event. So we get stuck there. We can also get stuck in this outcome of what we want to happen or maybe what we hope doesn't happen, depending on what that athlete's mindset is. But really, you have no control over either the event or the

outcome. We try to control the outcome like crazy, right? We really want to win. We really want to make things happen. But yet we cannot control that because we cannot control our competitors, our teammates, our coaches, the referees, whomever it may be. The only thing that we really can control is our response. And by controlling our response to an event, we have an opportunity to get the outcome we want. And so I really work on getting people's mindset focused on that response. How will you respond? What can you choose? What is within your control? And I have this diagram that I'll draw up on the board for people to be able to see, and we fill in the blanks and that kind of stuff. And I think that's been really powerful for a lot

of people to recognize that our minds are usually stuck in the event or the outcome, but we can't do anything about that. But by choosing your response, you have an opportunity to get the outcome you're looking for. At least you're giving yourself a better possibility. Yeah. And I do, I see that similar as well. I see a lot of people are really just stuck in things that they can't control, maybe things that they, you know, describe as a bad call or terrible weather. And it's like, you know, that doesn't help you really perform at your best. So, and you know what I'm going to go back to? Yeah. Did it suck? Sure did. Embrace it. It did suck. And then move on. I like that. So I like

the embrace the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck. Makes a lot of sense. So, Nicole, tell us about like a signature technique that you have, something, you know, that you help people do in terms of like, what do you teach them to help them master, you know, the six inches between their ears? Right. Yeah. You know, a lot of it's the E plus R equals O, embrace the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck, those types of things. And really what all that comes down to is what it's really self-talk.

It's really the messages you're giving yourself about what's happening around you, the messages that you're giving yourself in terms of what's happening in this moment, where you want to be next, what you hope happens, what you don't hope happens, like things like that. And so a lot of this, the self-talk idea is coming down to this mindfulness idea as well in terms of being in the moment. What is happening right now? An acronym I have used for years. I'm sure I didn't make it up. I have no idea where I got it because it's been so long. But an acronym I've used for years is WIN. What's important now? And I'm constantly asking athletes what's important now? It's not the last play. It's always the next play. The most important play in any sport is always the next play. And so I'm constantly telling athletes

to right win on their wrist or right win on a glove or something like that, which to the world looks like they want to win. Okay, cool. But to them, it's really about being in that moment and saying, did that just suck just now? Yeah. Okay. What am I going to do next, right? What's important now? What's important now? And by paying attention to what's important now through the whole game, you play the game one play at a time, you keep your mind one play at a time, and you have a better opportunity for that outcome. So, again, choosing your response to get your outcome.

And you can't control the past. So why get stuck there and be thinking about something that you just wish would happen differently when you can't control the past. So why get stuck there and be thinking about something that you just wish would happen differently when you can't control the last play? Exactly, yeah. Absolutely. So, Nicole, let's talk a little bit about yourself as a high performer. And we've been talking about failure a little bit and how the best really learn from the failure. They bounce back and they're resilient and they deal with adversity.

So tell us about a time, you know, that didn't go so great for you. And maybe you would describe it as a failure, maybe, maybe not. But I think that, you know, we can all learn from other people's mistakes and failures. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to ask you this question. Yeah, no, I love this question. And to be honest with you, we could talk for days about my failures because I fail every single day. And here's something. Actually, I want to tell you a story with this, if this is okay.

I share this story pretty much any time I go give a corporate talk, one of the government talks, when I talk to teams, I share this story a lot. And so I kind of want to use this story to illustrate what I'm talking about. But about six years ago, I went through a pretty big adversity situation in my life. And I was kind of stuck in the suck, right? I was just, man, this really sucks. And I'm kind of stuck there. And I was flipping through the channels one day, and I caught the very tail end of some documentary on Samurai Warriors. And I kind of half paid attention, but it was like, whatever, okay, you know, I'm kind of listening, kind of not. And something at the very end stuck out to me that said that the samurai warrior was different than every other warrior.

And that's what made him so great. That's what helped him succeed. And I thought, what is that all about? So for some reason, I kind of got fixated on samurai warriors. So I started doing all this research. I run to my computer. At this point, no more Dewey Decimal System. I got Google.

Love it. Much easier. So I run to my computer and I start doing this research. I'm thinking, what in the world would have made Samurai Warriors so much better? What was this? And so the first thing I look at is training. I think, well, they must have trained differently, right? You know, not really. Their training was pretty similar to every other warrior, everybody else. So I'm thinking weaponry, okay, equipment, got to be equipment. Nope, their

equipment wasn't really a whole lot better. Their weaponry wasn't really that much different. So then I'm thinking, well, was it nutrition? Was it some kind of an altitude, living at altitude type of thing? What was it? What was it? Well, what I ended up finding out is samurai warriors will die by their own sword before they will die at the hands of an enemy. So it was more honorable for a samurai warrior to fall on his his sword which is where we get the expression fall on your sword it was more honorable for a samurai warrior to fall on his sword than to be killed by an opponent so if he were to receive a wound on the battlefield that at that point in time most battlefield wounds would end in death through infection bleeding out whatever it might

be the samurai warrior would get on his knees put his his sword on the ground, point it at his stomach, and fall on his sword. And I thought, whoa, okay, that's interesting. So I delved a little deeper into that, and here's what I found, which is what I think brings us to the conversation today. Prior to going into any battle, because samurai warriors knew they were likely to fall on their own sword, they had already accepted the inevitability of their death. They knew prior to any single battle they went into that death would likely happen for them. They'd already accepted it. And if you're going into a battle and you know you're not coming out, you're going to take as many guys out as you can along the way. You're going to go in with everything you have, right? Where a lot of other warriors were more about kind of protecting and defending themselves.

The samurai warrior was out there, man. He was taking out as many guys as he could along the way. And what I thought was really interesting about that was because that samurai warrior had already accepted his death, he wasn't afraid of it. He let go of that fear. He no longer feared that inevitability. And I think for us today what this means is if we accept that failure is a possibility and a probability in a lot of things that we do, if we accept that before we go into battle or performance or whatever it might be, then we have no reason to fear it. We have no reason to be afraid of failure. And so what it did for me at that point in my life was said, you know what, here I am in this situation that's really,

really difficult. And I can't do all of these things. And I'm beating myself up every night, because I'm not accomplishing things throughout the day. And the next day, I got up and I said, you know what, Nicole, you're gonna fail at something today. And that's okay. And so what I'm recognizing now is I know when I get up every single morning, I'm going to fail at something that day. And sometimes it's something to me is not that big of a deal. Like dishes are left in the sink overnight where some people would freak out about that, but not me. Failure, I didn't get the dishes done. Other times it's a really big failure. It's something that really did matter. But here's a failure. I didn't get the dishes done. Other times, it's a really big failure.

It's something that really did matter. But here's the beauty. We are not samurai warriors. When we fail that day, we go to bed that night. We might have trouble sleeping, but you know what? We get up the next day, and we go back into our life, and we do it all over again. We get second chances all the time at life. Every single day is a second chance at life.

And maybe we don't get it with the events that we just had. Maybe we don't get a second chance at the Olympics or a national championship, but we still get to go on about our lives. We still get to learn lessons from those failures and move forward. And so that's kind of why I'm saying, I tell this story a lot because I think that for people to understand what is really so bad about failure, what really is so life-threatening about failure, if we accept that failure is part of our paths, it's part of our progress, it's part of who we are as people, as human beings, if we accept that, then we're free from the fear of it and we can go on and we can try things and we can risk and we can put ourselves out there knowing we're going to fail sometimes and we're going to get back up and come back at it the next day. Yeah, Nicole, that story was really powerful for me just listening because it's your own personal story

of just like your journey to understanding failure and waking up every morning with the mindset that you will fail. And I see that it's so powerful because I think in our culture, we are, we aren't necessarily celebrating failure and the way that we ridicule athletes on ESPN or whatever, when they fail, you know, I think we're creating this culture that you shouldn't fail. But what I hear you saying is to accept failure as a possibility and a probability, know that you will fail so that, you know, you take more risks. And I think it, for me, when I apply that to myself, I then just be more free to be myself all day and not worry about the consequences of, you know, making a mistake. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we all make mistakes. And yes, some of them are bigger than others. Absolutely. I'm not going to

deny that. I'm not going to try to pretend that doesn't happen. But most of the time, we're not dying for our failures. Most of the time, we come back the next day and we find a different way to do things or we find a better way to do things or we find some different strategies, different methods, a different mindset. And I think that's where learning really occurs. Each time you fail, if you learn from that failure, who knows where you could go in the future. And so really recognizing failure as an opportunity to learn something about yourself and then moving forward. And I think, honestly, that's one of the reasons why I have found so much success is because I have failed like crazy. I fail every single day. Absolutely.

And it's just about learning from it and saying, okay, what did you learn today from that failure, right? Yeah, nice. Awesome. And work on a different failure. Awesome. Well, tell us about any other aha moments that you can think of that you've had in your career.

Such a rich career, you know, with who you get to work with is just awesome. So, yeah, can you think of any aha moments that you've had and how that can help us learn something? I totally can. So my biggest aha moment came, part of what I got into this field for was I always wanted to work with Olympic athletes. That was my thing.

That was my jam. I want to work with Olympic athletes. I want to go to the Olympics, right? And that's a lot of people in our field get in for that reason. And I was very fortunate that I have had those experiences. So I get to my first Olympics. It's Vancouver 2010. And I'll tell you what, it was an amazing experience for me. I was there with short track speed skating. We had 10 athletes, seven were first time Olympians. And it was the first time in USA history, and we were the only short track speed

skating team that Olympics that all 10 athletes came home with a medal. And holy cow, was that a big deal, right? Apollo Ono became the most decorated winter Olympian in USA history. We had Catherine Reuter get a medal. It was the first time since 1984, a female had gotten an individual medal. You know, it's just a really, really exciting time. And so I come back and I'm on this big high, right? I'm so excited. I achieved my dream. I got there. I did it. And we had great success. Oh, my gosh. Right. So I'm totally on this endorphin high for days and days and days and days. So I as a result, I got the opportunity to kind of travel around the country and give a few different talks. And one talk was in my hometown. I gave an annual speech at the annual Chamber of Commerce banquet. And so I had a lot of friends there, a lot of

family, a lot of people that I knew. And I'm giving this talk and I'm talking about how I achieved my dream and how amazing it was and what a great experience and so humbling to be there and be a part of this. And I got this question at the end of the talk. It was basically, I can't remember it verbatim, but essentially said, wow, you made it. That's amazing. Congratulations. What are you going to do next? And I just went, uh, and I had this moment of, holy cow. So I did make it, but I'm not done done and I don't know where I'm going to go next and I don't know what I'm going to do but I know I'm not done I haven't really made it as much as I thought I made it I didn't really make it and it reminded me of this quote about get your rookie on

right I and I love this and I live by this a lot get your rookie on which is like you're never going to make it. What is making it really? Because once you get there, isn't there somewhere else you want to go? You get to the top of the mountain. You know, I live in Utah. And so I have the opportunity to hike these beautiful mountains around here all the time. And you'll see a mountain that from where you're looking looks like the biggest mountain in this whole range.

I'm going to climb that mountain. So I hike up to the top of the mountain and I get up and I look around. And what do I see? A mountain behind it that's a little bit higher, right? And if I were to climb that mountain, there would be another one a little bit higher. And so what I've recognized is that we never really make it. That was my aha moment. I never really make it.

And I don't think I'm ever really going to make it. I'm never really going to get there and when I do get there, I'm probably done, right? Because when I get there and I don't want more, that means I'm not learning. I'm not getting any better. I'm no longer a rookie where I'm constantly learning and at that point, I'm probably done.

So if I feel like there's more to do, then I've not really made it yet and you know what? I love that because that means there's more to do, then I've not really made it yet. And you know what? I love that because that means there's more to do. There's more people that I can have a positive impact on. There's more people that I can help them find their greatness. And I truly want to help as many people in this world as I possibly can just live fuller lives, more fulfilling lives, experience things they maybe never would have gotten to experience if they weren't mentally tough.

Absolutely. And I can hear how that really relates to the peak performance literature. You know, just when you accomplish something, looking forward to the next thing that you can go after your next goal, just to stay hungry and motivated and excited for your work. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's great to celebrate those moments. So I feel like you're going to make it in moments.

And absolutely, you and the national championship, man. Celebrate like crazy because that's amazing. Maybe take a whole week. But the next week, you come back and you go to work because there's more to be done, right? And as soon as you feel like I really have truly made it, then it's probably time to retire from whatever it is that you're doing because you're not going to improve. You're not going to get any better than that right there. And at that point, maybe it's time to walk away when you're the best at what you do. Yeah.

So, Nicole, a quick question for you. Which of the top 10 traits of high performers do you think that you exhibit the most? Just learning more about you. Which one of those do you think? Yep, that's me. You know, it's so funny because I look at all 10 of these and I think they're all fantastic. And I can see that I have strengths in all 10 of them, but I can also see I have weaknesses in all 10 of them.

I think going on to this idea of mastery and always improving, you know what, no matter how good we get at any one of those 10, we need to continue to improve. We need to keep getting our rookie on and getting better about that all the time. But I would say if I had to choose one, I would probably choose number one. I'm pretty gritty. I've experienced quite a bit of adversity in my life and just refused, just said, no way, you are not going to hold me down. You are not going to keep me back. I'm always going to find a way to get it done. If I really want it, I'm going to get it done or I'm going to die trying. Yeah, for sure. And which of those do you feel like, gosh, maybe

you could improve on? Because I do think that we're all a work in progress. Yeah, for sure. And which of those do you feel like when I'm embracing the suck, it really sucks. And so I can experience that to a really deep degree. And I even feel that with the athletes that I'm working with. You know, they don't all succeed all the time. They fail too. And I can feel that just agonizing pain for them. And that's so difficult sometimes to find that positive when they're really struggling or when I'm really struggling but at the same time I can also feel their positive

emotions too and I feel like they're my own I remember watching in Vancouver when one of our athletes who had sustained a really massive injury prior to the Olympics and he was standing on the podium at the Olympics after having gone through all this and I was crying like a baby just so happy for him and so excited and so I feel things so strongly and so deeply that that choosing power choosing empowering emotion is very difficult for me at times when I am in that suck, which is why I take an action, do a behavior, get out of the suck, and then I can get back to being positive. I can see how that helps you relate to your athletes so well,

just because they see that you really care about them. Yeah. Yeah, and if anybody who's listening would like to go and get that list of the top 10 traits of high performers, you can go on my website, drcindra.com. So, Nicole, let's go to the speed round. So let's just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. Is there a book or a resource that you could recommend that's sort of like your go-to thing related to mental training, sports psychology, peak performance?

Sure. I don't know if it's necessarily a go-to thing related to that, but a book I recommend all the time has nothing to do with sports psychology, and it's Tuesdays with Maury by Mitch Albom. It is absolutely one of the best books that every time I read it, I get something new from it that just helps with life, just life in general. I require it in one of my classes at the University of Utah every year, and the students hate it. They don't want to have to read a book, and then they come back and just say, holy cow, this quote, this paragraph, this idea changed my life. It changed my perspective.

And I think we can all just, if we want to do life better, whether you're a performer in sports or a performer in music or dance or at your job or driving down the street or taking the SAT, we perform all the time. And so I think that mindset shift, that perspective in Tuesdays with Maury is just really, really good. Awesome. And what's one word that people would describe you as, Nicole? Passionate. I can see it. This was an awesome interview because you're so passionate about what you do. I can just like tell by your face and your voice and your energy.

And what's the best advice you've ever received? Probably as far as the sports psychology world goes, it's the most important person in your life is the one who's in front of you in that moment. And really, whoever's in your office, whether it's a high school kid or a pro athlete, it doesn't matter. Most important person in your world is right in front of you. And really showing that to them, being authentic and genuine with that, showing them that you really truly do care about them as a person, not

just as an athlete. That has really, I think, been beneficial for me in my career. But I think the same thing for coaches, right? If you're having a conversation with an athlete, man, that athlete is the most important person in your life at that moment. I think we can all be with the person we're with in the moment, whomever that may be. Be with the person you're with. And can you give us a success quote that is important to you?

Yeah, absolutely. I like, our background and circumstances may have influenced who we are, but we alone are responsible for who we become. I think by choosing our response, again, regardless of the event, we choose our response. We have an opportunity to get an outcome. We can create ourselves. Nice. We can create ourselves. I really like that. So, Nicole, final question. What advice do you have for those, you know, who are high performers who are listening to the way I describe high performance is those who are working to reach their greater potential. And you've given us a lot of really just useful tools and suggestions today. So what advice do you have for those who are

listening? Yeah, well, first of all, I want to say I love your definition of people who are just working hard to achieve their potential. I love that because isn't that where we all are, right? I absolutely love that. But I would say then for those high performers, obstacles are put in your way to see if you really want something or if you just thought you did. And so really coming back to why are you doing what you do? Do you really want this? Are you willing to just go through the motions or are you really willing to deal with the adversity? Are you willing to be resilient?

Because it's going to come. It always comes. You're going to fail. Life is going to suck sometimes and you're either going to choose to throw in the towel and go do something else or you're going to choose to keep going and so I think really having an understanding about that and knowing what you want the path you're going to take to get there it's not going to be easy it's not going to be straightforward there's going to be a lot of people trying to knock you down, a lot of situations that will knock you down.

And you're either going to choose to get back up or not. And that really is your choice at the end of the day. Nicole, I want to thank you so much for giving all of yourself today and really being present here and just giving us so many incredible, useful suggestions and strategies. So I want to tell you what stood out to me related to this interview, just as a recap, and the things that I think are unique that you said that maybe other people on the podcast haven't talked about or talked about in a similar way. So I just commend you for being here and just giving your whole self. I really appreciate it. I know everyone who's listening really appreciates that as well. I love what you talked about, how there's like only this 1% of people who really hate to lose.

And that's really like a big distinguishing factor that you see. And that's what makes them so great at what they do. You talked about embracing the suck, but don't get stuck in the suck and feeling the full emotions of that and then working to take an action or behavior or maybe both so you can kind of move on beyond that suck. You talked about protective factors related to resiliency, social support, optimism, and failure as feedback. And then I really like our discussion about failure and just how the best accept failure every day. They see it as something that's going to be a possibility and a probability. So they can really rebound and be prepared for that. And, you know, they don't necessarily feel fear failure because they're expecting it.

And so they take risks and really can allow them to be really at their greater potential and be their best that day. So thank you, Nicole. Tell us how we can reach out to you and connect with you. Well, my Twitter is at HeadstrongDoc and my website is HeadstrongConsulting.com. And I really would love to hear from any listeners what your thoughts are on this. If you agree, if you disagree, I'd love to hear it because you know what? I'm a rookie.

I'm getting my rookie on and I would love to learn from you as well. So please reach out. Send me a tweet. You can go to my website. There's a contact me form that comes right to my email. I'd really love to hear from you, your thoughts, your impressions and how, you know what, how I can improve as well. Awesome.

Love it, Nicole. So tell us what's about to you about this podcast. You can also tag me at Mentally Underscore Strong. Reach out inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.