High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 508: The Neuroscience of Change with Dr. Britt Andreatta

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

Dr. Britt Andreatta is an internationally recognized thought leader who uses her background in leadership, neuroscience, psychology, and education to create brain-science based solutions for today’s workplace challenges. Britt is the former CLO for Lynda.com (LinkedIn Learning) and has over 10 million views worldwide of her online courses. She regularly consults with organizations on leadership development and learning strategy. Britt is the author of several books on the brain science of success including Wired to Grow, Wired to Resist, and Wired to Connect. In 2021, she was named a Top 20 Learning Influencer and a Top 20 HR Influencer for Leadership Development.     In this interview, Dr. Britt and Cindra discuss:  Why people are experience more burnout than ever before  4 Steps to Post Traumatic Growth  The emotions people experience during change  4 Main Types of Change Journeys  Organization recommendation   How fear and failure get in the way of embracing change  HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/508    FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/  FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong  TO REACH DR BRITT: https://www.brittandreatta.com/  Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901     

Hey, my name is Cindra Campoff and I'm a small-town Minnesota gal, Minnesota nice as we like to say it, who followed her big dreams. I spent the last four years working as a mental coach for the Minnesota Vikings, working one-on-one with the players. I wrote a best-selling book about the mindset of the world's best and I'm a keynote speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with speaker and national leader in the field of sport and performance psychology. And I am obsessed with showing you exactly how to develop the mindset of the world's best. So you can accomplish all your goals and dreams.

So I'm over here following my big dreams. And I'm here to inspire you and practically show you how to do the same. And you know, when I'm not working, you'll find me playing Miss Pac-Man. Yes, the 1980s game Miss Pac-Man. So take your notepad out, buckle up, and let's go. This is the high performance mindset. Welcome to episode 508 with Dr. Britt Andreatta. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today. I'm grateful that you're here. Now, before I introduce you to Dr. Britt, I'd like to share with you that we just launched our new book called Beyond Grit for Business, which is a perfect resource for you. Inside it are 10 powerful practices to boost performance, leadership,

and your bottom line. It's designed for leaders in any industry, entrepreneurs, and salespeople who are serious about improving their performance and pursuing the best version of yourself. You'll find practical tools and strategies to boost your productivity, your leadership skills, and your bottom line. And if you order now at beyondgrit.com, that's beyondgrit.com, you'll receive an opportunity to win a free 60-minute coaching session one-on-one with me, a free online course called Multiply Your Confidence, several exercises including a values exercise, a morning routine exercise, a game-changing business roadmap, and you'll also receive access to our free

high-performance mindset summit, which includes 22 expert interviews to help you continue to build your inner game. So again, you can head over to beyondgrit.com for those bonuses and to order Beyond Grit for Business. I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Britt Andreatta. Several months ago, Dr. Britt opened a conference and I closed it as the keynote. And so I got to sit in her session and I absolutely loved it. I loved her content. I love how much I learned.

And I couldn't wait to share this with the High Performance Mindset community just because I think it's going to be game-changing for you as a leader and as somebody who experiences change every day because the world is constantly changing. Today, we're talking about the neuroscience of change, and Dr. Britt Andreada is an internationally recognized thought leader who uses her background in leadership, neuroscience, psychology, and education to create brain science-based solutions for today's workplace challenges. Britt is the former chief learning officer for lynda.com, which is also LinkedIn Learning,

and has over 10 million views worldwide of her online courses. She regularly consults with organizations on leadership development and learning strategies. She's the author of several books on brain science for success, including my favorite, which is Wired to Resist, as well as Wired to Grow and Wired to Connect. In 2021, she was named a top 20 learning influencer and a top 20 HR influencer for leadership development. And in this interview, which I know you will find game-changing because I found it game-changing and I think you're going to enjoy it,

Dr. Britt and I talk about why people are experiencing burnout right now, four steps to post-traumatic growth, the emotions people experience during change, four main types of change journeys. She provides recommendations for organizations and how they can navigate change. And then we talk about how fear and failure get in the way of embracing change. You can head over to cindracampoff.com slash 508 for the full show notes and description, including a transcript from today's interview. That's cindracampoff.com slash 508 for episode 508. And without further ado, let's bring on Dr. Britt

Andreatta. I'm so excited to have Dr. Britt Andreatta today to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you. Lovely to talk to you too, Syndrome. Please call me Britt. Okay, thank you, Britt. Britt and I were speaking at the same conference and I heard her give an online virtual keynote and I absolutely loved it. I took pages and pages of notes and really wanted to provide this to the listeners of the High Performance Mindset. So to get us started, Dr. Britt, just give us a little insight into your passion and what you're doing right now. Well, I work in the intersection of leadership and learning. I provide brain science-based solutions to today's workplace challenges. I like to study neuroscience and how it helps us be better.

I'm all about helping people rise to their potential as individuals and also organizations. Well, this is a perfect podcast for you to be on because that's what we're about too, right? Just helping people step into their best and using science to be able to do that. Give us a little insight into how you got to where you are in your career. You know, I'm thinking about all the things that you offer in terms of keynote speaking and several books, and just give us a little insight on your career journey. Okay. Well, I started off in higher ed, you know, I liked

school and never left. So I worked at the University of California, Santa Barbara for a long time as a dean and a faculty member. And during my time there, I focused a lot on creating programs and leadership development opportunities for students of all ages. And then I left there and I became the chief learning officer at lynda.com, which is now LinkedIn Learning. And it was while I was there that I started bringing brain science into things because I was learning about it kind of in my own life. And I know my way around an academic journal. So I started studying what they were learning about the human brain and how we learn. And so that became a talk that I was giving.

And then people kept saying, this needs to be a book. So I was like, okay, I'll turn it into a book. And I thought that I was going to be one and done. But then LinkedIn purchased lynda.com. And I realized all the change models I was certified in were not helping. So I thought, huh, what is what is neuroscience say about change? And that became book number two. And then I realized, I guess I'm doing this. I guess I'm going to be the person that translates neuroscience research to today's workplace issues and comes up with practical solutions.

So book number three is all about teams and inclusion and collaboration. And right now I'm working on book number four, which will be all about purpose and innovation and creativity. And then the other part of my business that I kind of didn't expect was everyone started asking for training if they could get certified in my models and roll out training based on my research. So now we have a training certification program that a lot of organizations use to roll out the training in their place of business. Well, that sounds all incredible. And I've been searching your website and also learning more about what you do. And I think it's fascinating. I think it's so important because I think when you have research-backed ideas, it's not just made up and people can make informed decisions.

And I thought what you discussed, which we're going to talk about today, that were really powerful ideas from your book and your keynote is this idea of change and the neuroscience of change and then the post-traumatic growth. So you speak on, you know, brain science of success and applying neuroscience to organizations, workplace challenges. What specifically made you decide, okay, this is really what I want to devote my career to and my business to? You know, I believe everyone can learn and get better, and that we want to get better, that humans hunger to be their best selves. And I've always believed that learning is a path to that. And then when I added neuroscience was it was just helping me have a better understanding about this body I inhabit and how to use it correctly and how to maximize myself. And so, you know, I guess I'm the first test case. And when I find something useful,

then I really want to dig in and learn more. And then I find that when you give people that information and kind of the why and how things are happening, then they're really armed with the information they need to apply it in their own lives and use it to further their own goals and growth. Okay, excellent. So let's dive into this first idea of post-traumatic growth. And one of the things that I liked, I really thought was really great about your keynote is you really tuned into how people are feeling because of the pandemic and then now where we are.

And so more people are experiencing burnout than ever before. Let's maybe just get started pandemic and then now where we are. And so, you know, more people are experiencing burnout than ever before. Let's maybe just get started and tell us how you actually define burnout. Okay. Well, I want to just say that right before the pandemic started, the World Health Organization had identified burnout as a workplace and occupational hazard and that needed to be addressed. So burnout happens when you are overworking and under resting. It's a combination of those two things. And the definition of it is a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion brought on by long-term stress.

So people can hit periods of burnout, but what was unique in the pandemic is that because we lost access to all the ways in which we do rest and recharge. And then a lot of people handled that by just working even more. There's a ton of data on how many more hours people worked during the pandemic. Many companies had their best earnings ever. We are globally in a state of burnout. And in fact, in January of 2020, it was estimated that 53% of American workers were burned out. By March of 21, it was 70%. And right before 22, it was in the 90%. So we're seeing evidence of burnout in all kinds of organizations. It's one of the biggest topics I'm working with executives about is because it's playing out. It's driving the great resignation.

People are quitting because they have lost their sense of enthusiasm. So what's really interesting about burnout is there's three components of it. One is exhaustion. So just feeling tired all the time and all that that does to you. The second one is a decreased sense of accomplishment. So stuff that used to make you feel good, like checking off your to-do list or working on a project with your team now longer feels like it doesn't make a difference. So you just get apathy all the time. There's just nothing that gives you any juice. And that includes kind of

stealing away joy when you used to have joy for things. And then the last one is deep detachment and depersonalization, which means you just have depleted your ability to have empathy and compassion for other people and yourself. So the danger of burnout is that it's very slow and it's slowly leeching away a sense of joy and compassion. And so it's kind of like that boiled frog syndrome. By the time we realize we're in trouble, we don't have the energy to help ourselves. So it's a really big problem. It can drive a lot of health costs and mental health suffering.

And we're seeing it really run rampant in organizations around the world right now. I would agree that I'm seeing that trend too. And it's interesting that there's research that people overworked during the pandemic. I saw also that people did not care for themselves. I saw kind of like extreme, like the small part of the population

or my friends doubled down on an exercise because they had more time. But most people I know didn't and maybe ate too much or drank too much or more than they wanted. So they weren't also caring for themselves, which also makes sense that they had a decrease or an increase in exhaustion and detachment. Yeah, absolutely. The research on it's really fascinating. And I would just say that, I mean, when I read the research, I was like, oh no, I'm burned out. Like I didn't realize I was. And so I made a real intentional effort to start playing more, resting more, you know, taking my evenings and my weekends, dialing back. And what's really interesting is nature is particularly restorative. And the magic number, to the water, whatever it is. So I've actually been using some of the techniques I discovered and it's really helped me come back

from that state that I was in. Yeah. Great personal example. So what do you think organizations should do about, you know, this trend in burnout? If it's like 90% of people at the top of 2022 were burnt out. I mean, that's, that's extreme. Yeah. So I started, you know, the conversations I've been having with executives are a couple things, you know, one, you've got to start talking about it. Executives are burned out too. So we need to, to teach people what it is and how to help themselves. And I had made two webinars available that some organizations used. Leaders need to be encouraging their people to take time off. So really saying, yes, you need to take your vacation. Some organizations were giving bonuses to people for taking their vacation.

I've seen some organizations add in some extra closed days, just saying, we're going to close on Friday. We want everyone to have a three-day weekend. It's easier now once the vaccine started getting out and about and people felt like they could go out in the world a little more safely. So those are definitely some things organizations can do, teach people about it, support it, and certainly making sure that, you know, they're investing in things like therapy as part of their mental health benefits or mindfulness or any of those kinds of things that will help people, you know, engage in that self-care. Yeah, really tangible strategies. I think the importance of having social support, if it's therapy or a coach, you know, or even colleagues in a workplace culture that you can talk to openly about how things are going. So, you know, when we think about this idea and this concept about like

post-traumatic growth, first of all, maybe connect that to burnout if you can, and just describe what that means to you. Yeah. So what was interesting is that I was doing the research on burnout and where we are. I discovered that there's a thing called post-traumatic growth. So many of us have heard of post-traumatic stress syndrome, which is after something traumatic, the body stays in a heightened alert system that keeps you just constantly in adrenaline and cortisol. And that can manifest itself in all kinds of ways for people. It is a maladaptive approach to managing a traumatic event. And there's no doubt that, you know, therapists and psychologists will tell you that the pandemic was a shared trauma. It was trauma that we all lived through the fear of dying, many people lost loved ones. Just all of

that, the unknown being locked in, you know, it was a traumatic event. And yet we've been trying to get through it. So not a lot of people have necessarily sought therapy for, for talking about how that impacted them. But the second thing about how the human body responds is some bodies go to post-traumatic stress. Some people go to post-traumatic growth. So it's a state by which we move through trauma and heal from trauma by learning about it and being transformed by it. is that, and this is not my research, this is research of other theorists out there, but Richard Tedeschi, who works at the University of North Carolina, he says, we're talking about a transformation, a challenge to people's core beliefs that causes them to become different than they were before. Studies support the notion that post-traumatic growth is common and universal across cultures. And so post-traumatic growth can get activated by a variety of factors, illness, war, you know, a pandemic, all kinds of things, being a victim of a crime. But what post-traumatic growth is, is really that you look at what you've learned

from the experience. You intentionally look at how it shaped you and change you, and you're able to move into a more positive relationship to the trauma. Yeah, powerful. And I'm curious in terms of what does the research say about, you said some people are better at kind of going through this post-traumatic growth versus, you know, stress. What allows people to see the post-traumatic growth? Do you think people naturally do this? Do you think it's learned? Do you think it's both?

It's both. There's some people that naturally do it, but the people who study it, the researchers who study it, have found that now that we kind of know what it is, we can help move people in that direction. Let me first share what the research shows that post-traumatic growth tends to generate shifts in seven areas. So let me list those for you. Sure. And maybe people can kind of listen and think which ones are true for them, particularly around the pandemic. So the first one is a greater appreciation of life, right? Just knowing what matters to you. Number two, a deepening of close relationships. Three, increased compassion and altruism. I think that happened early in the pandemic. I think it got smushed with burnout because we kind of lose compassion. But, you know, we also did see people really caring for each other. Fourth is new possibilities for a purpose in life. So that's kind of asking

yourself the question, you know, what do I want to be doing with my life? Am I spending my time in the right ways? What really matters to me? And so people have a shift there. And that's why I think a lot of folks are changing jobs. Number five, a greater awareness or use of your personal strengths. You kind of discover things about yourself that you now can utilize. Number six is enhanced spiritual development, however you define spirituality for yourself. And number seven is creative growth, just leaning into more creativity. So what causes folks to go into post-traumatic growth is really taking time to reflect. So it's a deliberate reflection on the impact of the trauma and what can be learned from the experience. So obviously therapists do this one-on-one all the time with folks, but organizations

can do this too by sitting down and having meetings and talking about it. The second thing is really looking at people that inspired you or that you saw go through or role modeled moving through that adversity and kind of looking at what did they do and can you take a page from their book. The third is to really see this window of time as an opportunity to reinvent yourself or reinvent your organization that while it disrupted everything, it was an opportunity. So, you know, a lot of us did this, like there were people in my life before that weren't necessarily healthy for me to be around. And the pandemic was a great time to break that pattern of, of spending time with them. And now as we're kind of coming out of it,

there's certain people I am not reconnecting with. And then there's others that I'm rushing toward, like, I can't wait to see you. So we all have that opportunity to say, okay, you know, what do I want to use as an opportunity to reinvent myself? And then the fourth one is that we really do, we really are a species that needs human connection. And so really reconnecting with other people that share your values, spending time together, all of that. So both individuals and organizations can use kind of those four steps to ensure that they're moving toward post-traumatic growth. Excellent. That's really useful and great information as we kind of think about what did, you know, what did we learn during the pandemic? How did we grow through it? I think about what did, you know, what did we learn during the pandemic?

How did we grow through it? I think about growing through it instead of just getting through it. And, you know, what comes to my mind is I was at the Boston Marathon bombing, which, so I'm a marathoner. And I, you know, this happened now nine years ago. And, you know, obviously it shook my world. And, um, but when I look back at it, it actually gave me this bigger sense of purpose because I didn't know if I was going to get a home, um, after the marathon, I didn't know if I was going to see my boys again. And so, but I was really deliberate about taking a step back after I kind of got through that period. And, you know, a month later,

I just kept on asking myself, what am I supposed to, you know, I'm supposed to learn, how is this connected to my purpose? Some of the things that you just said, you know, I think it allowed me to have a greater appreciation of life and a deeper, you know, just deepen my close relationships. Some of the other things you just said about understanding my own purpose. So I can see when people are really intentional and thought about doing this with the pandemic, however. So you just, you know, given me something to think about myself and how can I apply these different seven areas and the four steps to the pandemic? Absolutely, because essentially what we have available to us is two paths, right?

One is when we move through adversity, we kind of focus on crisis management and that idea of we're going to get back to normal. We're going to get back to how it was. But a post-traumatic growth lens is another path, which is how do I become better, right? How do I take what happened? And I'm not just restoring myself to where I was before, but I'm actually achieving a higher level of functioning as a result of learning from this experience. What did I, how did I grow? How did I gain? And so that become better is a great lens by which we can all, even if you haven't, for all of you listening, even if you've just been getting through, now's a great time to stop and ask yourself, how have you become better? How did this shift you? What did you learn about yourself?

What did you learn about others? And start looking for the ways in which it's taken you to a higher level of functioning. Yeah, excellent. And I think about when I heard you speak, you're talking about we have two paths when we go through the trauma, return to normal or become better. And what is the difference there between returning to normal and becoming better? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of organizations, we can kind of see it playing out, right? There's some organizations right now that are just really focused on, we got to get people back to the office. We've got to get back to how we used to work together.

Instead of realizing that while it was, you know, a shakeup, we've now come up with whole new ways of working together. And we've proven that people can be hugely productive without necessarily being in the same room when they're having a meeting. Now, do we want to work from home forever? Probably not. I think a lot of people want kind of a blended approach, but it's a great opportunity for us to completely rethink how and when do we work. I personally think we should use as many online tools and asynchronous opportunities to collaborate as we can. And then we save meetings and particularly being in person together for times that would really accelerate the team, team building, having conversations where you're making important decisions, dealing with conflict, use that in time together where seeing and hearing each other in 3D and not

just a little from the collarbone up flat image will aid your communication, will aid your connection. So, you know, organizations right now are reinventing what work looks like. And some are really embracing that as a way to completely revision how to do great work. And others are just trying to force people back into the old mold. And, you know, they're seeing higher turnover as a result. People don't want to go back to how it was. We are all forever changed. And I think we are changing better.

Yeah. And I'm curious about as people are listening and they're applying this to their lives or their organizations or their teams, you know, this idea of post-traumatic growth, which we're talking about, we've talked about how we can apply it to, you know, big events like the Boston Marathon or the pandemic. What are other examples of how we can apply this idea of post-traumatic growth to our personal lives and then to our teams or organizations that we lead? Well, it's interesting. Some researchers who study post-traumatic growth,

particularly have looked at hospital systems and they looked at the New Orleans hospital system and what happened after Hurricane Katrina. And they also looked at the Seattle hospital systems and what happened because they were ground zero for the COVID explosion here in the United States. And what they found was that both of these organizations leaned into post-traumatic growth. They were intentionally, you know, they were innovating in the moment and coming up with new and better ways of handling things. They were

communicating effectively. They were taking risks and trying new ways of solving problems. And then they all intentionally went through a process of stopping and evaluating how things went so that they could harvest the lessons and further accelerate that innovation. And so, go ahead. Keep going. I just was gonna say,

I love the idea of harvest the lessons. Really cool idea. Yeah, but keep going. Yeah, so, I mean, it was interesting that they, both of those hospital systems did that intentionally. And as a result, both, both not only made it through those crisis moments in really good shape, but they continued to improve and become better. There's, there's three researchers who are all medical doctors,

two out of Yale and one out of Stanford, and they're quoted as saying, ultimately, it is not the trauma that causes growth, but rather how individuals and organizations interpret and respond to it. So we all have the opportunity to make meaning out of what we've been through. And we can, you know, we can take a negative view. And I think many of us did while we were in the middle of it. It was hard, but now there's, there's an opportunity to go back and, and, and look at what, what was gained, what was learned, what was accelerated as a result. And a lot of people that, you know, have quit their jobs and changed careers or moved from the cities out to smaller communities. I'm hearing over and over again that they do not regret those decisions, that it accelerated them creating a better work-life balance for themselves, that they got out of jobs that were toxic and

moved to healthier environments. They made changes that were ultimately really good for themselves. So I think we all have the opportunity to take and look at it with that lens. Yeah, you're right that we can always, you know, decide the meaning we want to create around an event. And I'm thinking about how it applies to like little t trauma, big t trauma, you know, just like these small things about getting cut off when you're driving in traffic, you know, it's like we get we can intentionally decide the meaning that we create around that. I mean, I grew up in a very abusive childhood and have gone through thousands of dollars worth of therapy to work on that. And I really value that. But ultimately, some of the best qualities about myself came from being in an abusive environment. I'm highly tuned to other people's emotions. I can read a room like nobody's business.

And it came from that trauma. And so I have leaned into using that skill set for good, for helping people, for doing things that are valuable. And so I think even when we go through really difficult, hard, awful things, we are transformed by it. And there's some gift in that, even though we may hate the experience that we lived through. Yeah. And it's not easy, I don't think, to take a step back when you're going through difficulty to take this lens of post-traumatic growth, right? It really takes intentionality. So as we kind of think about the other area we're gonna talk a little bit about today

is this idea of change and how we've been through a lot of change over the last several years, given the pandemic. And I loved your change matrix you talked about. What makes it difficult for us to change? Well, it's a couple things. So the change matrix talks about that not all change is created equal. Some changes are much harder for us to go through than others. So the change matrix is basically, you know, the horizontal axis is time to acclimation, how long it takes you to get used to that change, right? And then the vertical axis is amount of disruption,

how much does it disrupt your life? And so it essentially gives us four zones. And I like people to kind of make that little matrix and then take change that is happening in their life and put it on the map, you know, which quadrant does it fit into? Lockdowns would have been high and high, right? It took a while to get used to being locked down. We weren't used to having to shop in long-term ways. We weren't used to having to really avoid going out in the world. It was highly disruptive, right? If you get a new boss at your organization, that's often usually disruptive because you don't know how this person's going to lead things. It changes. It creates a lot of uncertainty. But if they change the faucet in the bathrooms, you might not even notice it. Right. It's low and low. So you can kind of take the change matrix. What Sandra, going through the same changes, and you might put things differently on your matrix than I do. And that's okay, because it's how we each experience or view change. So that can give us a way to kind of look at change. And then that also becomes essentially four types of change journeys as the matrix creates four types of change journeys that we can be going through. Some that are hugely disruptive that take a long amount of time. Some that are over pretty quickly, but are still really

disruptive. Some that go on for a long time, but aren't very disruptive. And then the ones that are low and low that we probably don't even notice. So that then becomes a tool by which you can kind of look ahead and map out the changes that are unfolding in your life, both professional and personal, and seeing it on a sheet of paper, all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, I can kind of see what's happening. And whoa, October is going to be terrible. You know, you're going to start to see places where a lot of change is overlapping, or you're going to be at the height of the disruption for a couple of changes. And so then that just gives you information to maybe engage more in self-care or maybe move one of those changes if you can, if it's going to be

too much. So, you know, I think it's a useful tool, the change matrix and the change journeys for helping people kind of make sense of what they're already living through. And I think what's interesting about both of those ideas is that, you know, we do experience change every day in some way. I appreciate that what you said about that some change we don't even notice, but, you know, there's bigger changes that really throw us off. How do people emotionally respond to change? How would you describe that? Yeah, it's a great question. It's really interesting because this research is based on Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's research of death and dying. And what she found was that when people

get a terminal illness diagnosis, they go through these stages of emotions, of grief, where they're coming to terms with this bad news. And what was really interesting is that her research is very well known in the death and dying world. And then fast forward many years, there's a hospital that's going through training and they're presenting her research. And all the doctors and nurses and hospital staff are saying, well, wait a minute, we all felt that way about a change that was just rolled out here at the hospital. And so that was kind of the first look that, wait, there's more applications to this. So many more studies have been done. And it's true that when we experience change,

humans have a predictable relationship of emotions. And really, we're going through a form of grief because we see change as potentially going wrong. And biologically, we're wired to see all the bad stuff that could happen potentially. So we naturally sort for, let me imagine all the ways this can go badly, because that's self-protective, right? If I can imagine it, I can protect myself from it. So what happens is we tend to first respond with anger and denial and frustration and stress and anxiety. All of those emotions come up at first when change is announced. And what I like to tell executives is your people are not being difficult. They're being human. This is just how humans are with change. We are wired to see it as potentially dangerous until we get enough information.

And so there's going to be time that passes. And that time that passes is influenced by how transparent the leaders are being. Are they giving the why for the change? Are they allowing time and space for people to just grumble because we need to? But eventually we get over the hump and, um, you know, I call it the peak of resignation. It's kind of the hump of this journey. And there's three types of resignation that happen there. Some people quit, forget it. I'm out of here.

I don't want to do this. The second type of resignation is, oh, I guess this is happening. I better resign myself and get on board. And then the third is the leaders who thought they would be met with standing ovations are so shocked by the grumbling and upset that they sometimes panic and pull the change when really they just needed to wait a little bit longer because humans are also adaptive. And once we kind of do our grumbling thing and we imagine the worst case scenario, then we can start picturing what we could gain,

what we could be positive about this. What are the opportunities here? And then we naturally move into more, I'm putting air quotes here, air quote, positive emotions. There's really no bad emotions. But the more easy to be around emotions like excitement, maybe some skepticism, some hope, some creativity, even some impatience, like, all right, I want to get this going and some excitedness. pretty accurate when you're rolling out change in an organization. And then we can add research on habits and other stuff. You can even kind of predict how long some of these grumbles are going to happen. And then leaders can definitely take action to make the drama less and the length of time less, but they never make it zero because we're human. This is part of what we do biologically. I am just thinking you just dropped like major value bombs that people, if they're not taking out their piece of paper, and they're writing a whole bunch of things down

that you just said. I really appreciate that you said they're not being difficult, but they're being human. I think that's so helpful as we think about having compassion with ourselves when we go through change, but also compassion with those people that we lead. But we're also adaptive. And you just, you provided a lot of good tangible things like being transparent, sharing the why. They need information so that

we can, and we naturally go to the worst case. But then when we go to the worst case, we can take a step back. I think about, there's so many people I know who are going through right now. There's a big organization I work with that I provide coaching for, and they're having all these layoffs. And everybody I talk to is in this worst case scenario. They're ready to be gone. But one of the issues is their leaders haven't told them what changes they're actually making and where they're going and why all these changes are made. So people feel really insecure about their future and they don't know if they're going

to be cut next. Absolutely. And what's interesting is that the human mind must make meaning. And so in the absence of a narrative, we will make up our own story. Here's the kicker. It will always be worst case scenario. Always. I worked with one organization where they decided to change, they had an onsite gym. So this is one of the Silicon Valley companies. And they decided to change the towels because they'd done some research and they realized that most people were not using the towel service. And so they were going to save some money by just removing stuff people were

not using anyway. And when it was announced, because the leaders did not provide good information, the employees interpreted that it was a sign that the company was in trouble and layoffs were imminent. And so all this fear started running through the organization when it had nothing to do with that. Worst case scenario, of course, are layoffs. And so when layoffs are happening, it's going to freak people out because we need to survive. And in today's world, how we survive is our paycheck. That's how we buy food, water, and shelter. So anything that threatens your potential job, whether it's a performance review, a new boss, or layoffs or rumors of layoffs, it's going to really activate people's

fear and anxiety. Yeah. I think that's a great example of just removing towels. And then we think the sky's falling. Yep. That's what humans do. And so leaders can do, you know, be transparent when you can, uh, share as much information as you can tell the why, um, be truthful. Employees can sniff BS a mile away. Um, be compassionate because sometimes you do have to deliver bad news. And then I think it's also about be a broken record, repeat yourself again and again and again, because people, uh, when we're on that change journey and having all those emotions, we can't always hear what's being told to us, but if there's multiple opportunities to hear or read or see, it helps us clue in to the information we need at the moment.

And you said something that I wanted to follow up on. You said you can predict how long, you know, people are sort of like in these stages of change. Say more about that. Can you predict how long people stay in the worst case? So it's a combination of two things. One is, you know, just the natural journey that people take on kind of that change curve. But the second thing that plays out is habits. And our brain has a brain structure called the basal ganglia that is designed to help us develop habits. Here's a habit, anything that you do on autopilot, like when you open software and you know your way around, that's a habit. You've done it so many times, you don't have to think about it. But if you had a brand new pair, not a pair, a brand new package of software,

you'd have to think about it and concentrate on it, right? Learning to drive, another example. We used to have to think about it a lot. Now you can drive without thinking about the act of driving. That's the basal ganglia at work. So when we've done behavior over and over again, it takes 40 to 50 repetitions for the basal ganglia to turn that behavior into a habit. Here's what happens with change. Most of the time, whatever you're shifting at work, people already have a habit in place. They're already got a well-grooved thing that they do

that's easy and comfortable. And usually when you're rolling around change at organizations, you're asking them to develop a new habit, which is going to be awkward and uncomfortable. So they're naturally going to want to go back to the old way. So a couple of things, you need to provide training to help groove those 40 to 50 repetitions. And then that 40 to 50 number can help you predict. So I worked at another organization that used to provide lunch every day on campus. And again, they did the research. Very few people were on campus on Fridays. People tend to go off campus for lunch on Friday. So they

decided to remove Friday lunches. And again, lots of drama. Oh my God, the sky is falling. And one of the VPs pulled me aside and was like, how long is this going to go on? And I said, 40 Fridays. It is a long time. It is a long time, but that's, you know, if they take, you know, if it was every day, we would have gotten there in six weeks. Right. But every Friday was a thing. Now, sometimes people adapt a little faster, sometimes a little slower, but you can kind of predict if this is a behavior that they do every day or multiple times a day, you're going to get through the grumbling and the habit forming a lot faster than if it's something that you do weekly or monthly, then it can go on and on and on.

That 40 to 50 is really practical, right? And those reps, I really appreciate what you just said. So as we think about change, one of the things that you talk about is that we need both motivation to change and then the desire and choice. How can we use both to access our own readiness to change or other people's readiness to change? Yeah. So let me clarify that human motivation for change is comes from two factors. Did we get to choose it? Yes or no. Did we want it? Yes or no. So again, you can make a little matrix for yourself and there's four quadrants, you know, a change that you wanted and you chose would be like applying for a new job where you're going to have to move. You get that job offer, even that's going to be hugely disruptive in your life. You're probably super excited about it.

Then you've got change you did not choose and did not want. No, don't make me. We're going to naturally dig in our heels and resist that. Then you've got stuff you wanted, but didn't choose. This was me with the acquisition. I'd always wanted to work for LinkedIn. I was this big fan of Jeff Weiner, the CEO. But when that was announced in our company, I was like, yay. But I was in the middle of a kitchen remodel and moving my mom to a system. So it was not a good time for me. So I was going to embrace this opportunity, but certainly not the same running for it energy as if I had applied for a job there. And then there's this weird fourth category, which is you're choosing it, but you

don't want it. I think a lot of us felt like that about the pandemic and masking. Nobody loves masking, right? We did it to take care of our community, to take care of ourselves. So there's, you know, if you have to relocate because it'll set you up for a better job, things like that. So we're kind of enduring or accepting the situation, but we're not necessarily loving it. Yeah. Okay. So helpful. So useful. The last question I have, and then we'll wrap up and you can share anything else that you'd like. I think about what you said about, you know, we're not being difficult or just being human and some of the natural reactions that we can have to change, such as fear or maybe fear of failure or failure in general, that gets in our way of really embracing change.

How do you see that happening and how does that apply to what we've been talking about? So in my book that I wrote on this topic, it's called Wired to Resist, because we are. I found that there are four major brain structures that play out when we're going through change. So I just talked about the basal ganglia and habits. That's a big one. There's a part of our brain, it's called the habenula, and it tracks failure. And its whole job is to pay attention to when we mess up so we can harvest those lessons and it tries to influence our future decisions and actions. So how it does that is it's a structure that restricts or cuts off serotonin and dopamine, the feel-good chemicals. So think about us as a species living on the land, you know, hundreds of years ago. If I walked down this path and I found

food or water, my brain would produce lots of serotonin and dopamine to reward me for that. living on the land, you know, hundreds of years ago, if I walked down this path and I found food or water, my brain would produce lots of serotonin and dopamine to reward me for that. And if I, the next day I went down a different path and there was no food or water, the habinula would activate and restrict, cut off the drip of serotonin and dopamine, essentially making me feel a little bad. So the next time I come to that fork in the road, I would just kind of feel emotionally like I want to go down the one path and not the other. So it uses this chemical guardrail to influence decisions and actions. What's really interesting is it can be so powerful that it can affect your motor neurons. So the habenula is overactive in people with depression.

And when they say I'm having trouble getting out of bed, they're not kidding. Their motor neurons are suppressed and it's literally making it physically hard for them to move. So that's how powerful the habenula is. How it relates to change is change gives us lots of opportunities to fail.

Most change never unrolls, unfolds on time or on budget. There's lots of opportunities to make mistakes. And so if we're not celebrating success, the habenula can get overactive and then we start to code change as a negative thing. And then we become more resistant to change in the future. Excellent. Dr. Andrietta, this was wonderful today. I learned so much and I know everybody who's listening learned a lot. And I just want to really thank you so much for bringing it here on the podcast today and sharing this, sharing with us, you know, your knowledge and your perspective of how you've been continuing to do your own research and learn and grow. Tell us a little bit about your three books

and which of those relate to the topics that we talked about today. So today we covered a lot of content from Wired to Resist. That's the book that I have on change. I have another book called Wired to Grow, which is all about how the brain learns and how we learn new behaviors. And then my third book is

called Wired to Connect, which is all about teams and collaboration and inclusion. And then a little bit of purpose and post-traumatic growth that is going to be in book number four, which I'm writing right now. It'll be out in 2023 and it's called Wired to Become. And if folks want to check out, I am on my website. I put out a pretty good size free section of each of to Become. And if folks want to check out, I am on my website, I put out a pretty good size free section of each of my books. So if you just go to my website, BrittAndreotta.com slash books, you'll see all the books listed there. You can click on the free section and it'll also show you where you can order them if you're interested. Excellent. That's perfect. And if people want to learn more about

your certification and training, tell us about that. Yeah. So again, my website, BrittAndreotta.com slash training will take you to all of that. And then I'm really active on LinkedIn. So if people follow me on LinkedIn, you'll always know what I'm up to and what I'm sharing. I'm always sharing new stuff about the brain and us and how we can be our best selves. Excellent. Well, so much value in everything that we talked about today in our lives and our work. And I really appreciate the way that you broke it down really practically for people to understand. Because when you think about neuroscience, it can be a little overwhelming, you know, and if people really want to have research backed ways of change and seeing this idea of post-traumatic

growth, right? I appreciate the way that you broke it down. Do you have any final advice or thoughts for us? You know, the last thing I would say is we, we inhabit pretty miraculous bodies. Like, you know, the human body can heal itself. We can recover from things. We can become better. It really is designed to heal and repair and grow in new ways. So a show a little love and appreciation to this, this amazing thing that you have, this body, this mind, um, and then learn a little bit more about it. You know, the more I've learned, the more I feel like I've been able to take care of myself and maximize what is naturally there. And so it's pretty fascinating. I'm a lifelong learner and I hope other people get kind of turned on by checking out, checking out

neuroscience research. It's pretty fascinating. Thank you, Dr. Britt. I appreciate you. And I am grateful for the positive work that you're doing in this world and all the people that you just helped today from this podcast in your life. Well, thank you to you too. I love that you're doing in this world and all the people that you just helped today from this podcast in your life. Well, thank you to you too. I love that you're spreading this message and I love the opportunity to connect with your listeners. So thank you. Thank you.

Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow. Did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe and you can head over to Dr. Sindhra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week.

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