High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 51: “Close Your Eyes, Scan Your Body & Make Positive Self-talk A Practice” with Dr. Jack Lesyk, Ohio Center for Sport Psych & Cleveland Cavaliers

Episode Date: June 9, 2016

Dr. Jack Lesyk, Director of the Ohio Center for Sport Psychology and Sport Psychologist with the Cleveland Cavaliers, sees that the best are gritty – they have passion and perseverance for their long-term goals. They are resilient and don’t let poor performance linger. They have a short-term memory. Jack describes there are two different types of perfectionists: dysfunctional and functional. Functional perfectionists strive for excellence and are always looking for what went great. Dysfunctional perfectionists overreact emotionally and focus on what went wrong. Jack describes a mindfulness practice he does with his clients to help them change how they feel with their words and images. His final advice for high performers – or those who work to reach their greater potential – is to enjoy the moment. Close your eyes, scan your body and make positive self-talk a practice. To contact Jack, visit sportpsych.org or send him a tweet at @sportpsychOH.

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome high performers or those who are working to reach their greater potential. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff, the host of the High Performance Mindset Podcast, and I got a good one for you today. The interview I'm excited and ready to provide you is with Dr. Jack Lesick. Now, this is a really cool time that Jack is on the podcast because Jack is the director of the Ohio Center for Sports Psychology

and also the sports psychologist for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Now, if you follow the NBA, you know that the Cavaliers are in the NBA Finals. And I don't know about you, but I think this is a pretty sweet way to spend your time is to listening to Jack Lesick, the sports psychologist who works with the team. So here's a few things that he talks about in this interview. He talks about how he sees that the best of the best are gritty. They have passion and perseverance for their very long-term goals. They're also resilient, he describes. They let their poor performances go. They have a short

term memory. In the interview, he also talks about two different types of perfectionists, dysfunctional and functional, and how functional perfectionists really strive for excellence, but they're always looking for what went great. He provides a mindfulness practice he uses with his clients to help them change how they feel with their words and their images. And his final advice for high performers is to enjoy the moment. I know Jack would love to hear from you as well. And we'd encourage you to either make a comment on my website, drcindra.com. You can click on the podcast link and you can find this episode. Just leave us a comment there. Or as always, both Jack and I are on Twitter. Jack's Twitter handle is SportsPsychOH for Ohio, so SportsPsychOH for Ohio, and mine is at Mentally underscore Strong. Would love to hear from you, and let's bring on Jack Lessick.

Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Cyndra Campoff, and today I'm delighted to bring you an interview with Jack Lessick. So Jack is at the Ohio Center for Sports Psychology and is a performance psychologist for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And Jack, I know that we are going to learn a ton from you today. I'm really excited that you're here to help us just be better at what we do. So Jack, tell us a little bit about your passion and what you do. Okay. Well, basically, I became a sports psychologist a long, long time ago. Basic background is in clinical psych, but I began transitioning into sports psych as I became an adult serious marathon runner. So I kind of over the years retooled myself and my practice

so that for many years I had a mixed practice of traditional clinical plus sports psych. In recent years, I've evolved so that my practice is 100% working with athletes, mostly on performance issues, a little bit of light clinical. Most of my work is in my private office, one-on-one with athletes who have selected to come and see me. And then, as you mentioned, I do work on-site with the Cleveland Cavaliers at their training site nearby. And they're doing excellent right now in the playoffs. They're doing great. I'm happy to say.

Yeah, exactly. So, Jack, you just get to watch some of the and work with some of the most incredible people. So tell us um you know what do you really see is different from them and what do you think separates them mentally from other people yeah good question uh i think first of all at the highest level like working you know with nba players and that sort of thing these people do have natural gifts and these gifts were identified very early in life usually by age age five or six, they were already outstanding in their sport.

But what probably differentiates them from other people who play the sport is what is now becoming very popularly discussed, but has been their phone time, and that is grit. They really have a passion. They have a love for their sport, and they also have the perseverance to stay with it up and down, you know, through the years, through the good times and the bad times. That's pretty remarkable. I think most athletes who play at a high level, you know, share that characteristic. Yeah, and how do you see them? How do you see that their grit in their actions or their behavior or how they respond to adversity or mistakes? Like, what do you see them do differently?

Yeah, good question. And one of the things that I see differently, you know, is I do see that these high-level athletes show up for practice early and they stay late, you know, that you can just see the physicality of their effort. You know, they work through pain, adversity. I also see a tremendous amount of resilience. They can have a very bad game, both as a team or as individuals. And the next time they play a day or two later, they're awesome.

You know, they don't linger over their failures or their shortcomings. They learn from them, they work harder, and they come right back. And I think this is in contrast to a lot of the high school age athletes that I work with, some of whom have these characteristics and they're going to go on and do these great things. And others don't. It is a recreational pursuit. They're having a good time, but they're not as dedicated to it. And that's OK. Absolutely. They all have different goals, right? And different reasons that they're participating. Yes. Yeah, and what do you see your athletes struggle with? You know, and I'm thinking about some of the young athletes you work with, even up to the NBA players you work with, because, you know, we all do have struggles. So what do you see them really struggling with? I think the biggest struggle and the biggest common denominator that I've seen in my practice

has been an awareness of underperforming when it really counts, you know, probably due to anxiety or unrealistic expectations. So many of the athletes that I've worked with over the 30 years, you know, come to me because they say, you know, I don't understand that I do so well all week in practice and it comes to the big game of the week and I just don't perform as well. That's probably the number one issue. Yeah. And what do you see them do in terms of unrealistic expectations, like you mentioned? What kind of expectations do they have? And then how do you think that impacts how they play? Well, particularly with younger, when I say younger, I'm talking high school age athletes. Many who come to see me privately are very perfectionistic, and that becomes a very self-defeating way of living.

We talk often, I'm sure you do, Sandra, about being sort of a functional or dysfunctional perfectionist. The functional perfectionist strives for perfection, but they realize it's rarely obtainable. And so they can handle the shortcomings pretty well as learning opportunities. The dysfunctional perfectionist really expect to achieve perfection. And so often they fall short, of course, and they overreact emotionally. They exaggerate what didn't go well rather than looking at the whole picture of what they did well. And they have such emotional reactions that the emotional reaction gets in the way of learning, and it gets in the way of future performance. As they're going into the next performance, so often the dysfunctional perfectionist is thinking about all they did wrong the last game. The other type of perfectionist is thinking of all the things they did right the last game and how they can keep doing those things.

I like your distinction between functional and dysfunctional. I definitely see that in my work as well, where some perfectionism is okay because it doesn't mean that we have high standards. But I like what you said about functionalists, functional perfectionists, what they really do is they're thinking of all the great things that they did, not what they didn't do right. And I think, you know, I give these labels, you know, as I'm working with the client, I give them a little lecture about the two types of perfectionists. And I talk about, first of all, half of being a perfectionist is a good thing. It means that you set very, very high standards and you're willing to work hard toward those standards. So that part's good. And then it branches into two different types. And so I give them that language. I give them that little bit lecture. They start labeling their own behavior as to whether it's functional or dysfunctional. Excellent. I can see how that's really useful,

Jack. So, you know, I'm thinking about a mindset topic. Can you tell us one that you usually always cover with your clients? You've already kind of talked about grit as something that you see distinguishing those between, you know, those are really excellent, but what other things do you always talk about? I think the biggest mindful or mindset concept that I try and teach clients derives from mindfulness, but it's a technique that I use that may not be a traditional technique, but serves the same purpose. If you're in my office right now as a client and I'm going to address the topic, what I'm likely to say to you is I'd like

you to imagine that I'm going to leave this office for five minutes and when I come back, I would like you to be kind of sad or kind of happy. Okay? We're not going to do it, but I want you to think about that. Would you be able to do this? And about 50% will say and give me the right answer. Let's say, yeah, I could do that. And I'd say, how would you do this. And about 50% will say and give me the right answer. Let's say, yeah, I could do that. And I'd say, how would you do it? And they would say, well, I would think about sad things. And, you know, if it was the other task, I would think about happy things, happy memories and whatever, or things I've seen on TV or whatever.

And I would say that's the exact answer. Exactly. But just stop and think about that. Here you are sitting in a quiet room without a TV set. And by the way, I took your iPhone with me so you couldn't text anybody during this interval. And here you on your own, all by yourself, have chosen images and words that you've conjured up in this quiet office that indeed make you happy or sad. You know, stop and think about that. That's really an amazing thing. And guess what? People are doing this all the time, but they don't know they're doing it, you know. And so if you start to develop awareness of your thoughts, you can stop and think, okay, these are my thoughts.

Then the next question, are they good thoughts? Are they helpful thoughts? And if they are, stay with them. On the other hand, if these are not useful thoughts and they're serving no purpose, now you have the power that most people don't have to switch to something else. And then I'll give them an example. Let's just say you're sitting in my waiting room waiting for me to come out, and there's a track meet this weekend, and you're going to compete. And you could be sitting there saying, oh, man, I'm not prepared.

I've not been running well. The last was a disaster. Now stop yourself. Your thoughts catch yourself. Are these helpful thoughts or not? Well, they're obviously not. So what could you substitute with that? You could say, I love running. You know, most of the time I do pretty well. I'm pretty pumped up. You know, I love the activity. Now, which set of thoughts do you want to go with? You know, so that's sort of, Cydra, how I teach

some of the concepts of mindfulness, which I think are terrific. Jack, I like what you're saying, because I think sometimes we think that certain things make us feel a certain way instead of recognizing that we really have a choice on how we respond. There is a podcast episode I recorded, I think, last week about responding, not reacting. I think that's kind of what you're saying. It's just like, pay attention to what's going on in your body. What are you thinking about? And like making a choice to think something different. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Jack, can you share with us? Things that are no longer under control. And that is, you know, the end of a performance,

it's done forever. And if you've underperformed, you can't go back and redo it, but you certainly can choose how you're going to react to it. And I talk about two reactions. You know, one can be judgmental and the other is analytic. You know, and a judgmental reaction is, I really sucked. I was horrible. I can't believe how bad I was, you know, and that doesn't go anywhere. And the other reaction is analytic. What did I do well? What did I do not so well? What did I learn? How can I use this to improve? So that's just another amplification, you know, of the theme, Sandra. Excellent. And I can see that the analytic is really more objective. You know, it's just like, what can I do differently and not subjective? You're not taking it personally or you know uh letting it

impact your confidence yes and i do say okay you're human being so all right you're going to have an emotional reaction that's okay allow it but don't linger on it the first reaction might be oh man i can't believe you know or positive yes really great you know so that's okay but it doesn't go anywhere that's just being and then the next step should be getting analytic about it allow it not linger um yeah yeah good good jack so tell us uh excellent good i like it um okay so jack let's turn to you and think about yourself and i want to ask you why do you do what you do and uh, you know, we believe here at the High Performance Mindset that your why, and if you keep it front and center, can be a really powerful motivator. So why do you do this work?

Well, I guess it goes way back to why did I become a psychologist, okay? And I think I had two reasons. One was basic curiosity because people fascinate me and they still do. I'm still a student of human nature and I have a lot to learn. And the second thing is I really like the thought of empowering people, you know, just giving them life skills. And that's why I became a clinical psychologist. And then later on, the same desires manifested in working with athletes, you know, and I really see my work as helping them to become better people through the modality of sport, enjoying life and becoming more

and more competent and doing good things. You know, that's probably my main motive. The other one is just a rather selfish, emotional one, and I love it. I just love doing it. You know, there are other populations that I've worked with before that I didn't love doing as much. You know, and when I wake up in the morning and I say, wow, I can't wait to get to the office because I'm seeing these people today. That's a good feeling. Rather than, as I had years ago, oh, no, not so-and-so, you know?

I like goal-oriented people. I'm good with goal-oriented people. I'm not so good with people who are not goal-oriented. When I was doing a clinical practice, I did not work well with depressive people, you know? I had empathy for them, but I was impatient. I couldn't empower them as quickly as I wanted to, and sometimes I felt even defeated by severely depressed people. I can see that's why you changed your practice to work with athletes, you know, and I like how you're just describing that you really followed what

you're passionate about, what fuels you. It's a great example for all of us to follow. It's been the main motivator, you know. Yeah, it has. So, Jack, tell us about a time that you didn't do so hot, so a time that maybe you consider as a failure. And the reason I ask you that is because, you know, I think failure is feedback, and we can all learn something from our own failures but even the failures of others. So I think it's why, to to me it's a really important question. I'm glad you asked that.

I'm really glad. In fact, I tell this story whenever I speak to high school or college-age athletes. And I had a very good childhood. I was a very successful young person as a child. I was a leader in Boy Scouts. I was editor of the high school newspaper. I had good grades. I got into a good college. Everything went smoothly for me until I met with the first real major failure in

my life. And I went off to college to become an engineer. And I was good in math. I was good in science. So why would I not be good in engineer? So I got off to college the first year, and I didn't like it. I wasn't motivated, and I really had a hard time. At the end of the first year, I went to Penn State. I almost flunked out. I think I had a 1.4 GPA, and a 1.2 I would have been out, so I was on probation. I came back the second year, and I was so determined that if I tried harder, I would be successful. And by the way, that's a life lesson, because so often athletes say, well, I'm just going to try harder. But that's not enough. You have to try smarter, you know, or know when to change something major. So I went back second year, and I was going to try harder. And by October, I was in the same place.

And one morning, I'm walking to my first class in the engineering building on the campus of Penn State. And I could show you the very place where there was a fork in the road. And going to the right would have taken me to my engineering class. Going to the left would take me to the counseling center. And that morning, I turned left. I went to the counseling center. I got help. And within a few sessions, I had a great counselor. His name was Ralph Barocas, you know. And after a few sessions, Ralph said, I don't know why you're in engineering.

You are a people person. So with his suggestion, I withdrew from engineering. The following semester, I took introductory anthropology, sociology, and psych. I fell in love with all three, especially psych. And that was the beginning of everything that followed, you know. And at the time, I felt like a failure, you know, a 1.4 average in my life dream all down the tubes. And you can see what came when I got in touch with, you know, what my strengths are. And you're still thriving today. I'm still thriving.

Yeah. I think that's a great example, Jack, of like from every difficulty there's an opportunity. And when you're struggling in engineering, it was like that just wasn't really what was fitting with you and your strengths. But then look at all the amazing opportunity that you got when you really fell in love with psychology and what you're doing now. I think the other part of that, Sandra, is sometimes we get into this mentality without questioning of never quit, never quit, never quit. Well, the right thing was to quit engineering or redirect.

But we can get stuck with that mentality, I think, if we're not thoughtful about it. Yeah, and then we get burnt out or unbalanced or, you know, just fried because we're doing something that really doesn't fuel us. Exactly, exactly. So, Jack, can you tell us about an aha moment you've had at some point in your career and what it can help us learn something, how it can help us learn something? I think the biggest aha moment, which is related to my career, but it wasn't in the career exactly, was, and I think I mentioned before, Cindra, and you know me, you know, that I've been an adult runner. And the way I started to become a runner was I was in my late 30s. And like many people in my generation, I had smoked. I picked it up in college. I had been smoking for, believe it or not, 18 years. And as I was getting into my

late 30s, I started thinking, you know, you don't get away with this forever. And before my 40th birthday, I tried many different ways of quitting and I was never successful. I always wanted to quit cigarettes because I knew in the long run it would make me unhealthy. But that hadn't happened yet. But in the late 30s, I had a different goal. And that is I don't want to quit cigarettes. I want to be a healthy, vigorous person. And reframing that was totally different.

So, yes, I want to quit smoking. I want to eat more healthy. I want to exercise and so forth. So one day in April, a long time ago, I was working at a hospital. I put on running shoes. I walked across the street and I started jogging as fast as I could. Little old ladies were walking faster than me and mocking me. Okay. So anyhow, four minutes later, I came to a halt because I thought I'd fall over and have a heart attack. I was totally winded. But the next day I said, I'm going to go four minutes and 30 seconds. And I did that. Well, two months after that, I ran my first race, which was a five miler and I finished last, but I was so proud of myself. Two years later, almost to the day, I ran my first of, which was a five miler, and I finished last. But I was so proud of myself.

Two years later, almost to the day, I ran my first of 14 marathons. The aha moment was finishing the first marathon. And after I caught my breath, I had that feeling, oh, my God, if I could finish a marathon with only two years after I quit smoking, I can do anything. Okay. And that enabled me to end a very bad relationship that I was in. It gave me the power to quit the security of a hospital-based job that I didn't particularly like and go into private practice and a whole bunch of other things. And because of that experience, Sandra, you know, I really do believe that so many people can learn wonderful things about themselves through the modality of sport. How cool is that, Jack?

I'd never heard that story. And I'm so glad that you mentioned something about marathoning because that was one thing I wanted to make sure we got to today is just like what you learned from your experience in the marathon. And I, what I heard is just that the marathoning can be so empowering and it really helped you find the courage to make other changes in your life. And then I also heard that it gave you this belief that you could do anything.

Yes. Um, and that's very similar to how I feel when I finish a marathon, especially one that I feel like I'm well trained for. It's like that experience is so mental and physical. It's like, man, you just are on this high. And it's like, if I can do this, I can do anything that I set out to do. It's mind and body working together, both feeling powerful. And the one thing that is guaranteed with completing a marathon is you're going to hurt. You're going to hurt. But then you learn that you can dig deep

and get through that hurt. You know, a lot of the other running events are not so painful, you know, but marathons are. And the interesting thing is back in the day when I was doing the marathons, friends and clients never asked, how well did you do? They said, did you finish? And there's a lot of respect where you can say, yes. They don't care what the time was. Even the professional athletes that I work with, well, they know that I've been a runner. They'll say, oh my God, you finished a marathon. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. You're right. And it's like you can learn so much from just training for one and then actually doing it. So I'm learning so much about yourself,

which that's what I heard from your story. Absolutely. So, Jack, tell us which of the top 10 traits of high performers do you think that you exhibit the most? I would say grit. I think that's I think, Cinder, that's your first one. And I guess I'm happy that this is being popularly discussed. But if I look back at my life, I think I've, both as an athlete and even as an academic, I've never been outstanding. You know, I think I'm maybe a little bit above average. I think I'm an overachiever because of grit. You know, everything I've ever done, if I have that passion, you know, I stay with it. I'm relentless in pursuing that goal until it's accomplished.

So that would be my number one. I think they're all obviously quite important. Yeah, and for those who aren't familiar with the concept of grit, it means having passion and persistence for your very long-term goals. And as you were even talking about the marathoning and finishing 14 marathons, you've got to have grit to do that, Jack. Or insanity. It's a very fine line between the two.

The driver always says, if you're a serious runner, you're crazy if you haven't done a marathon. But then I go on to say, if you run one marathon, you're crazy to run another one. So I guess. My morning, by the way, Jack, started with a 22 mile run. Good for you. I remember those days.

I remember those days. Yeah. So it's like I was thinking as I was finishing, like, this is a little a little insane. But not a bad insane i didn't think um and which are the experiences as i have i i since i'm not doing that kind of running anymore i'm pretty much retired from competition but what i miss the most are my own thoughts on the long runs by myself and a lot of the creative work that i did in sports psychology the book that I wrote a number of years ago, all of those things happened on those long runs by myself when I would free my mind and let it go to wherever it went.

And that I cannot duplicate on the treadmill at the fitness club where I go four or five times a week. I miss that. Yeah, it is. It's so much more freeing. I think you can get that. And maybe endorphin, how you describe it is like when you're outside and it is different when you're on the treadmill. You're right. It's different. Yeah.

You know, and Jack, I've been writing my first book this year. And when I started, I wasn't running as much. And it was really hard for me to be creative. But now I'm running a lot more. And it is a lot easier for me. Totally. Yes. Yes. And Jack, which of those traits of high performers do you see yourself still working on just with the idea that we're all a work in progress? On myself? Are you saying? Yeah. Yeah.

I think I still work at trying to really be more mindful, to allow thoughts to come and go without quickly reacting to them or judging them. I don't meditate regularly, and that's something that I want to build into my life. I understand the concepts and I try to apply them. I think sometimes I get too serious and want to become a little more playful because I'm at my best as a person and as a professional when I'm a little more playful. So I'm still a work in progress. We all are, Jack. Well, thanks just for being honest about that. So let's go to the speed round.

So what I'd like you to do, Jack, is just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. So is there a book or a resource for the audience that you would recommend? And why would you choose that to recommend? Okay, I guess the first one that comes to mind is Terry Orlick's Pursuit of Excellence. And I think it may be in its fourth edition. Now, I think it's just a wonderful conversational book that talks about mental skills in sport and in life as well. And then the second one is Smith and Kay's Sports Psychology for Dummies. Now, I hate the title, but I think it's a single volume that really a serious athlete would be able to read, understand, and apply very, very quickly. So those are the two that come off the top of my head. Excellent. And what's one word that people describe you as, Jack?

That's a tough one. I think teacher-learner-teacher-learner. Okay, that's more than one word, but I guess I think that's how people would describe me. I would describe you as very kind. Thank you. That's really sweet. I will take that.

What's the best advice you've ever received, Jack? It was from my dad, and he was an engineer, and he thought I was going to be an engineer, too, during the high school era. He said to me, he said, learn how to write. He said, no matter what you do in life, it will serve you well if you can write. In high school, I did take creative writing, and I enjoyed it very much. To this day, I enjoy writing very much. I've done a couple of book chapters.

I did one book. But what I like about writing, and I don't know if he saw it that deeply, is that's the only time that I am totally precise with words is when I write, you know, verbally interacting, conversationally, there's a looseness there. When you go back and you read a page that you've written two or three days ago, and you tighten it up to be precise, I love that feeling. It's almost like a flow state for me when I really get into serious writing. So that was good advice that he gave me. And how does that help you when you're precise with your language? I think it's the only way that I know that I'm thinking clearly, you know, and taking myself very, very seriously and testing my knowledge.

Do I really understand the subject well enough to not waffle, but to be very honest, direct, precise, accurate, and all those kinds of things? And sometimes when I've written a chapter or something and when it's finally finished, there's a little bit of a letdown. It's like the end of the race. Wow, everything was focused on that and now it's done. It sounds like you need another chapter to work on after that.

Yes. So Jack, can you give us a success quote that is important to you and maybe something that you use? I would love to. Okay, this is, tentative efforts lead to tentative outcomes. Therefore, give yourself fully to your endeavor. And that's Epictetus, a Roman philosopher, a long time ago.

And what does it mean to you? Go with your heart you know if you choose to do something make the choice on the basis of your passion and be bold and throw yourself into it that's what that would mean to me cinderella and it sounds to me to stay gritty you know if we go back to the first thing you said about the athletes who really stand out to you and the high performers, they're gritty. Absolutely. They stick with stick with something that they're passionate about. Yes. Yes. So, Jack, here is my final question. What advice do you have for those high performers who are listening? And to me, high performance is really how I would define it is, you know, you reaching your greater potential. And I know all those people who are listening. And to me, high performance is really how I would define it is, you know, you reaching

your greater potential. And I know all those people who are listening, they're listening to reach their greater potential. So what advice do you have to close up the awesome interview? Well, it's kind of hard to say one single thing. You know, there's a lot of stuff out there about setting goals and training programs and those things, all of which have their validity. But I think to me, the bottom line is really learning how to be in the moment and to enjoy

the moment, you know, whether it's whether it's practice or training, you know, or competition to to be in the here and now and just appreciate how good that can be, even if it's uncomfortable. Yeah. And what's a way that you might train someone to stay in the moment? Or do you have any suggestions on how to train it? Well, I do think the mindfulness, you know, movement, if you will, is an excellent way of doing that. But I think even in the office and, you know, at the beginning of a practice session or whatever to close one's eyes, take a couple breaths, do a quick body scan, allow thoughts to kind of come and go. I think you only need to do that for a minute or two. And as you step into an activity, sort of self-talk of, you

know, I'm really going to be here today. I get out onto that basketball court or the tennis court or the running track. I'm really going to be here and experience whatever sensations I'm experiencing and be open to them and take some pleasure in that. Yeah, what I hear you saying is like making it a commitment and a practice to really kind of stay in the now and intentionally do that. Intentionally, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jack, for just giving your knowledge and your experience to us.

What I'd like to do before we close up, I want to tell you what stood out to me about the interview and some things that were really important that others maybe haven't really talked about on the podcast. So I liked what you said about how those who are really successful that you see are gritty. So they have passion and perseverance and they stick with it even despite obstacles or not good times all the time. And you saw that they also have a short-term memory, so they don't linger over things, over games that didn't go so well.

They really move on quickly. And I liked what you talked about related to the perfectionism, dysfunctional and functional. And when we're really taking a functional perspective on perfectionism, we're thinking about all the great things that we did, but we have really high standards. And then the mindfulness practice that you shared with us of just like knowing that we can change how we feel by our thoughts and our images, I think is really powerful for the listeners. So I just want to thank you so much for your time and your energy and your commitment to helping grow the profession of mental training and sports psychology, what are the ways that we can reach out to you and connect with you, Jack? Oh, thanks, Sandra.

And by the way, it was a real pleasure being with you today. And I appreciate your summary. I'm very impressed by your memory and putting all that together. I do have a website that is available to the public, www.sportsych.org. And a lot of hopefully useful information on that website, so I invite people to connect. I do have a Twitter account, and it's the hash mark. Or is it the at sign? What is it, Cinder?

At sign. At sign. That's what I thought. Okay. You can see how savvy i am with the media you know and it's uh lowercase sport s-p-o-r-t-p-s-y-c-h and then capital o-h for ohio awesome and we'd love to hear what's it out to you about this interview. So I'd encourage you to go on Jack's website, again, sports psych dot org. You can reach out to us on Twitter. You can tell us we'd love to hear what's out to you about today's interview. Like what was the one thing that really stood out to you that's going to make the difference in your life and in your daily performance? So you can reach out and send

a tweet to Jack at again,, sportspsychoh for Ohio, and then mine is mentally underscore strong. We'd love to hear from you. One thing, Jack, I want to make sure that you mention is there is quite a few sports psychology professionals who listen to the podcast. Could you tell us about the upcoming training that you have? I attended it, by the way, maybe four years ago and loved spending a few days with you. So tell us about that for those who might be interested in learning more

about sports psychology. Oh, thanks, Andrea. This is our 17th year. Once a year, I run a two-day workshop in Cleveland, close to the Cleveland airport with a free shuttle from the airport right to the hotel. It's a very, very intensive two full days of training, either for people who are growing their practices in sports psychology or just want to improve their techniques. We deal with actually how to do mental skills assessments. I have the nine mental skills of a successful athlete, which is the framework that I use. I teach people how to use it. Also get into marketing and ethical issues as well.

So it's very, very intense. And as I said, it's our 17th year. So we're going strong. It's on our website. There's information there. Awesome. So you can check out sportspsych.org. All right.

Any final thoughts, Jack? No, thank you so much. It was a real pleasure, Sandraindra, being with you today. Greetings to all the people who are following you. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jack, for being here today. Thanks, Cindra. All right.

That was awesome, Jack. Thank you. Thank you. You're a great interviewer. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset. If you liked today's podcast, make a comment, share it with a friend, and join the conversation on Twitter at Mentally Strong. For more inspiration and to receive Sindra's free weekly videos, check out DrSindra.com.