High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 553: 7 Lies Leaders Believe and How to Let Them Go with Sarah Ciavarri, Speaker and Certified Coach

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

  Sarah Ciavarri, M.Div., PCC, CDTLF, is the Founder of Level Up Leadership and she loves seeing leaders get excited about their lives and futures. As a Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator, trained in all of Dr. Brené Brown’s research, and a Professional Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation, Sarah is always seeking new adventures in helping leaders craft a life they love.    Sarah has traveled nationally keynoting and facilitating workshops on resilience, vulnerability, and authenticity.  Sarah is the author of Find Our Way to Truth:  Seven Lies Leaders Believe and How to Let Them Go and to be released this summer, The Unnamable: Beyond EQ:  A Deeper Level of Emotional Understanding for Leaders and Entrepreneurs.     In this episode, Sarah and Cindra talk about:  What it means to be “Afrave”  The 7 lies leaders believe and what to lean in towards instead  Accessible tools to grow as a leader  And what I gained from her Dare to Lead Training based on Brené Brown’s work     HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/553   FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/  TO FIND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT SARAH: http://www.sarahciavarri.com/  FOLLOW CINDRA ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong  Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901 

Welcome to episode 553. This is your host, Dr. Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today on the High Performance Mindset Podcast. It is great that you're here. Thanks so much for joining us. And I'm excited today to bring my friend Sarah Chavarri on the podcast. Recently, this summer, I went through her Dare to Lead training. She is a certified Dare to Lead facilitator, trained in all of Brene Brown's research, and it was incredible. And I knew I had to have her on the podcast just to teach you a little bit more about her research and what she does with Dr. Brene Brown's research. So let me introduce you to Sarah. Sarah is the founder of Level Up Leadership, and she loves seeing leaders get excited about their lives and their future.

She is a certified Dare to Lead facilitator, trained in all of Dr. Brené Brown's research, and a professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation. She's traveled nationally keynoting and facilitating workshops on resilience, vulnerability, and authenticity, and she's the author of a book, Find Our Way to Truth, Seven Lies Leaders Believe and How to Let Them Go. We talk about these seven lies today in the episode. And in the summer, she's releasing a second book,

The Unnameable, Beyond EQ, a deeper level of emotional understanding for leaders and entrepreneurs. And Sarah and I, in this episode, we talk about what it means to be afraid, which is her coin term of being afraid and brave at the same time. I know you'll like that. We also talk about seven lies leaders believe and what to lean in towards instead. She also provides really accessible tools to help you grow as a leader. And I think about, you know, the different ways people lead. It might be leading at work or leading at home or leading in sport. And we also talk about what I

gained from her Dare to Lead training based on Brene Brown's research. And if you're not familiar with Brene Brown's research, she has incredible books. Dare to Lead is one of them. The Gifts of Imperfection is a second of my top favorite books. And she's a trained PhD social worker. And I know you're going to love what just Sarah and I talk about related to Brene's research and her work. So you can find the full show notes and description over at cindracampoff.com slash 553 for episode 553. Let's bring on Sarah Chavarri. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. I'm so excited to have Sarah Chavarri here. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. I'm just pumped to have you on the podcast today. It is great to be here. I love it. I have known you from a few different things, the speaking world, but then also was able to attend your Dare to Lead training last month, which was just incredible. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. I know you have another one coming up in September. We'll talk a little bit about. But just to get us started, tell us what you do, Sarah, and what you're passionate about. Yeah. I love helping people get excited about

their lives. I am a transformation junkie. I love seeing systems and people and individuals break free from what they think is the limitations of the type of life they can lead and really transform, break free into living the life that fills them with tremendous joy and tremendous purpose. And, um, that's where our greatest energy lies. So I have been in the coaching space, uh, for a decade and have started keynoting. Always was doing that in some way, shape or form, but really decided maybe seven years ago, I want this to be a part of what I offer to the world. So I keynote a lot on emotional intelligence and Dr. Brené Brown's research. So I love doing that. Well, that's awesome. And we were able to first connect at a speaker showcase.

We're both part of the speaker showcase, which if people aren't familiar is about 20 speakers and we have about 10 minutes, 15 minutes each to give our little short little keynote and a room full of meeting planners. So a little bit of high stakes. That was the first time I did that. And for those of you listening, Sindra was just so kind. She came up right away, a room full of people. I knew two other people. She came up right away, introduced herself after I'd finished.

She was so kind, just fabulous human being. Oh, well, you're really nice, Sarah. And that's what led us to the podcast today. And I think you have so much value, so much insight and wisdom to share with the world. I just can't wait to dive in. So as we get started, maybe just tell us a little bit about what led you to speaking and coaching, um, just so people can hear a little bit about your journey. Well, I think it started, um, in, because I had a leadership position, um, in a congregation as an associate pastor that really was difficult. Um, and I felt ill-equipped to address the challenges and the dynamics and, um, the kind of dysfunction that was happening. I felt really like I was trying to, I use the analogy. It felt like I was trying to chop wood with a plastic knife. Like I had a tool, but there was no way it was going to do the job.

You know, it could handle the hot dog, but there was no way it could solve the situation in front of us. And so at that same point, I became aware of Brené Brown's research and it was literally life-changing for me because it gave me language for all of these things I was experiencing and feeling like I'm just a bad leader rather than putting it in the category of, I don't yet have the skills I need to be really effective in this situation. And so it shifted my mindset from one of shame to one of growth and leaning into vulnerability to say, yeah, I don't have it all figured out. And I found this beautiful in, in digging into that more, just beautiful communities have been made of people who come together, you know, who are wanting to strip away some of these things that prevent us from living fully or in our authentic self or bringing our whole selves

to what we do. So that is a little bit of my journey into coaching. And then it was, okay, if this has been super helpful for me, I want to create that space for other leaders. I want to create the space where other people are experiencing the same healing and freedom and that comes from greater knowledge and just like that shedding of the weight of all the expectations or the things, the assumptions we believe. And when we break free from some of that, it's just freedom. Like you can physically see people's body language change. So that is what brought me to this place. I never intended to be an entrepreneur, but I love it. I love it. I love, you know, all of the excitement that comes with it. And I also love meeting all of the

different people and different organizations. It's, it's so much fun. It is fun. I think, you know, most people kind of come to speaking don't, I don't think intend to be a speaker. It just happens by following their passion. And I think that's ended up how I got into keynote speaking was I started because I wanted to be more confident speaking in front of the Minnesota Vikings. And then all of a sudden I saw, oh, wow, OK, there's all these people who are doing this. You know, maybe I could do this as well. So pretty cool. And I loved the training I just went through with you about, you know, Brene Brown's Dare to Lead, her book and the things that I learned is to set boundaries a little bit differently and to also share with my family what I really need. Those are a couple of things that I got from the training. I also really love this idea that Brene Brown talks about.

And if people aren't familiar with Brene Brown's work, she's a New York Times bestseller. She has written five or six books, Stare to Lead, The Gifts of Imperfection, are a few of her books. And I love her quote of like, clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And just trying to really be clear more with what I need and my expectations. So I just want to thank you so much for that gift that you provided to us. And tell us a little bit about what you've learned, you know, being trained by Brene Brown, and what have you learned just doing this work related to Dare to Lead? so many things. And, um, I think that the high, high level points are, um, we all feel fear and it's, what do we do with it? We all experience shame. And when we talk about it and we're met with empathy, things change. You know, it's, we experienced freedom. We didn't even know we got to have

so many tangible, practical skills of how do you have hard conversations? You know, it's really tapping into self-awareness. That's the foundational place of how do we have good relationships with other people that lean into, you know, setting boundaries that are life-giving. And the interesting thing I've learned leading so many of these different trainings now at this point, I mean, I've literally worked with thousands of leaders over the 10 years is when I ask people, so what a boundary? We have really, uh, kind of rigid ideas of what they are, you know, and there's freedom. I think when we spend more time thinking about boundaries to realize they can change and they're negotiable. So if I have a boundary now that is around my time or around my energy, like let's say you're working on a really big project, you know, you're putting a new book

together, for example, or you, you have a, your project manager and it's coming to the end of getting that building up. Like you will have different boundaries around your time and your energy than you will when you're in a different season of your life. And that doesn't mean we're wishy washy. It doesn't mean we're inconsistent. It means we're taking into consideration all the dynamics that we're dealing with. So I think another big learning, I mean, there's so many, I just, it's so fun because you just see all this great connection happening between people. Another big learning is we all want people who really get us, who really see us and hear us and want the best for us. And the way we experience that is by willing to open up and share a little bit of our imperfections.

So when you see someone you admire, or you look up to, or you want to emulate or be like, and they say, here's the thing I'm struggling with. Uh, you're, it inspires us to be more honest and it also brings greater connection. Isn't that so true? I think about not only the training we just went through together and the ways I heard people kind of open up and share when things weren't going perfectly for them, right? Like you instantly connect with them. And it makes me think about your keynotes. And I love just the variety of keynotes that you have, but I want to talk about one where you talk about being afraid. And I'd love for you to define what afraid means to you. And this is a term you coined, because I think it really fits with what we're talking about right now. Yeah. So afraid is a mashup word between afraid and brave. Uh, and if I had to boil down,

like what are some of the foundational, um, ways I show up, I hope that this is one of them, uh, where I will have the hard conversation with my spouse, even though fear is saying, um, don't do it. It might not be worth it. Um, you know, how you've gone down this path before, how is it going to change this time that I'm not waiting until all of that is gone. I'm going to go in and do the thing that is courageous or the, the thing, the next right thing to do the next thing that when I look back, so I also think a lot about legacy. Um, when I look back, I will be proud of how I showed up. So I had an opportunity last summer to sing the star spangled banner

at a twins game. You did. Oh my gosh. I had no idea. Yes. Yes. It was like the craziest experience. So crazy. Um, and so I had this opportunity to sing and it was a televised game and I did it. Amazing. Yes. And I really owned and leaned into a fray. And what I thought was, okay, like I have an adventurous spirit, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm up for pretty much all sorts of fun and games, but, and I do have a background in singing. So it wasn't like I was being asked to go play on a basketball court where I would not have any clue like what I was doing. I actually did play basketball in junior high and I had that like I made my only basket one year was for the wrong team. It's awesome it was at the top of the second half and and I after halftime and I was like yes I scored a basket and all my teammates were like oh Sarah we love you but that happened to my

team one time as well so I you know I had some skill in singing, but I haven't done anything at this level. And I, I worked really hard preparing. And I would play like Garth Brooks or Guns and Roses. And, and I would have that going and I would force myself to sing the star spangled banner while I had all this ambient noise going on because I, I, I was like, I just have to be able to really focus in that moment. That's true. And all the distractions, yeah. Way to train yourself for the actual event in that way. Right. A lot of athletes do that where they'll play background noise and things like that. So, uh-huh. Wonderful. And do you, um, do you also help

athletes like muscle memory where when you go through, you, you do this with your right arm, you know, in connects to this action or this thought. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I was thinking about this idea of afraid, right. And, and being afraid and you can't really be brave unless you're scared or you have some anxiety or nervousness. Like you can't write, like I think about the times where I'm really brave and the times I'm not, and the times that I'm not are, well, I don't even have any of that anxiety or being scared or being afraid and way to, you know, what a great example of being afraid and way to go for it. Yes. Yeah. What did you learn about yourself in that moment? That it's really important for me to, I learned I would rather live with a failure than a regret. So, you know, obviously I had thoughts like, what if I forget the words? Like, what if,

what if it's really crappy? Like, what if it's really bad? You know, I, and it's like, if that happens, I can recover. But if I don't go for this, I will always think, dang, man, I had this, I had this opportunity. It was probably a once in a lifetime opportunity and I didn't go for it. And, you know, I, I want a model for my kids. You can go for things and if they don't work out, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. And that's okay. We can get through that. We can absolutely get through that. And what I love about that is, you know, what is failure anyway? You know, so for a while during COVID on the podcast, I asked every single expert I had on, you know, what is your definition of failure? And nobody had the same definition. You know, one person said, well, it's anytime I didn't go for it

or anytime I didn't be myself or anytime I learned. Right. And I think it's, if we can define failure on our terms, we don't have to define it the way that society, you know, defines it. My son was at the conference track meet this year, and a young singer was singing the Star Spangled Banner. And she got maybe like three notes in, and she said, can I start over? And it was so cute. You know, and I was like, that's not failure. You know, she, she went for it and she's trying to be your best. Yes. Yes. So that reminds me of a situation at an assisted living facility actually, uh, where I was serving and it was Christmas. And, um, there was this gentleman who had sang his whole life, whole life. Like that was a really big part of his,

uh, self-understanding his self-identity same with me, like singing. If you asked people I grew up with or people I went to college with, like, tell me about Sarah. Probably one of the top five things would be was, oh, well she sings, you know? And he was singing and his wife was playing the piano accompanying him. And they, he was to sing two solos and he was singing one, the first solo, and she was playing like the music for the second one. So they literally were not on the same page, not on the same page at all. Like he would start, she would start. And then they, they had, they had to start over, over and over and over again. Right. To like, cause they couldn't figure out what was going on. And, and we probably, we all were in this moment and, and at the end of it, um, you know, he, he made a comment like, well, that was a mess or something like that.

And, and afterwards I talked to him and, you know, I, I knew the pain of what had, I knew his pain, but what I saw was like, you know, this is beautiful and this is lovely because this is real. And, you know, given his age, this might be the last time he's singing at this service. Right. It was just beautiful. Yeah. And well, and talk about shame and failure. Right. I mean, I think about times where, um, if we approach it kind of like what you just said with like lightheartedness and a beauty in the moment, that it's not a failure to us. And then it's like, all right, it also protects us from shame. And I know that's a big part of your work and the work of Brene Brown. I wanted to also, Sarah, dive in because I want to make sure we cover this, your book, so powerful with

these seven lies that leaders believe and how to let them go. And I really want to dive into these seven lies because I think that everybody who's listening can relate to them in some way. So maybe just to get us started, how about you share with us what the seven lies are? Yeah, for sure. Perfect. So let me just say with an on-ramp to that, all of these are sneaky. They're not like big, huge, huge lies that are so identifiable that we're like, that is not true. And they're lies about how we should show up, how we should function and about who we are. And in some way, shape or form, they've helped us. Like they have been of good service up until a point. So they are, I don't know enough. Yes. Number one.

Number one. And how we get through that or where we want to move is to honesty. We just want to move to a place of honesty. The next one, I must finish what I start. If you grew up hearing, finish your peas or clean your plate before you were done with your meal, like you get this. You must finish what you start. And moderation is the move towards more balance and health. The next one, I must follow the rules. My gosh, I was out riding a horse with our son and we met up with this woman on the trail who we literally just met her and we were riding with her and she wanted to go down

a trail that, you know, had a sign next to it that said no riding. And she was like, wait on the trail. And we both were like, uh, we're rule followers. And she's like, okay, I'm coming back. She's like, I'm sure there's just a down tree down there, but you know, we're like, we, we're going to follow the rules because this is making us really anxious. But this, this is about discernment. When do the rules not help us and who is writing the rules and what are the rules? So this isn't about compliance at all. It's about when does a rule become detrimental? And we saw a lot of this moral injury in healthcare during COVID. So we can circle back and talk about that if you want. Perfect.

I have to be nice. So powerful. Yes. Yes. It's like Thumper's mother in Bambi. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Well, then where does that leave hurt and pain and betrayal and resentment? You know? So, um, it's a, it's about having boundaries and then people must like me. I hear this one so often.

It resonates so much with people, leaders who are in positions where they're helping, you know, in nonprofits or in education or someone's been promoted into management and, you know, they're navigating. I think it shows up a lot for women. And the move we want to make is integrity. We want to move towards integrity. Next I'm responsible for it all. And there are people who are like, you want to be responsible here. You can have it. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And this one is ironically, it is about hope. It's about leaning into hope, finding hope. And then the last one is I need to be the right type of, and then you can fill in the blank. I need to be the right type

of leader, the right type of coach, the right type of speaker, the right type of, you know, friend. So that becomes really hard when one person's definition of the right type of friend is you, you know, you pay for all of the fun things we do. And that actually is not how you understand, you know, friendships. So, uh, all of these are so sneaky. So the, what we want to do is we want to catch them. So navigate through is a process. P E a P, uh, like peas, eat your peas. Okay, perfect. P-E-A. Pay attention. That's the first one. Pay attention. What am I feeling? What's going on? Why do I feel irritated right now? After this thing just happened, I feel really awesome to flip it. I feel really awesome. What did I do differently? How did I engage differently? How did other people engage differently? So that's the first move. The

next move is examine. Dig in, dig in. Is my thinking actually true? You know, even though it feels like truth, it can, we can be getting that dopamine release in the brain. That's like, yeah, I finally figured it out. This person is a jerk. You know, I knew it all along. Is that actually true? We want to dig in because when we don't, we just take that stuff that our brain says as truth, and then it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we show up. And we may not think it has a huge detrimental impact to our leadership, but it absolutely does. It absolutely does. And then the third step is, okay, I dug in, I got curious, I examined. Now I apply, apply the learning, pay attention, examine, apply the learning. And that's how, you know, we change these. That's how we challenge these lies. And it's also how we change how we show up. Yeah, I think some of these lies are so powerful. I think I tend to have number four. I tend to be nice.

Maybe that's why the training with you about boundaries was really powerful for me. I think number five is something I hear a lot of people say as well. People must like me. Number six, I'm responsible for it all. So there's a lot of people I work with doing one-on-one executive coaching. They feel like they, you know, always have to step in that they can't delegate. And that can be really difficult, something we work through. So the right, I need to be the right type of blank, the right type of mother, the right type of mother, the right type of father,

the right type of salesperson, leader, right? The right type of athlete. And then we don't really show ourselves and who we really are. So I think these seven are so powerful. Before we dive in a little bit more to PEA and how to address some of these lies, I guess first tell us why, you know, as you teach these seven lies, what do you see as the importance of really understanding them and knowing when we experience them and, and what do you see the benefit of that Mm-hmm. The benefit is we have greater self-awareness and with greater self-awareness comes more autonomy to craft a life that we're proud of. Um, so that sounds super like clinical.

Um, I think it bottom line, it gives us more of the things we want in life and less of the things that we, um, regret less of the things that cause us and other people pain. So, you know, people must, let's just go with, um, I must be nice and people must like me. A lot of the culture in the Midwest, you know, Midwest nice. I love being kind. I love being around people who are nice and generous, you know, generous in their assumptions of my actions. And, and, you know, that when you're done in the conversation, they're going to speak well of you. They're going to, you know, assume positive intent. But as I was digging into this, like,

I remember as I was writing this book, I went to a rehearsal for a play, a musical I was in at the time. And one of the other cast members was wearing this t-shirt that said, keep Minnesota passive aggressive or, and then in super tiny type at the bottom, it said, or, you know, whatever you think. That's funny. And it really, I mean, it was so hilarious, but I want to make the move to kind because kind is also that same space of openheartedness, going to avoid conflict. I'm going to not say what is true. Um, I'm cause nice can be super passive aggressive, you know, and it just gets in your head. Um, because those hard emotions want their day and they're going to come out. So whether it's through my words or through me, like banging my pots and pans in the kitchen or banging a door, when I go in my office, like those emotions are going to come. So, um, I lost the thought, honestly, where was I going?

Well, I'll summarize then. Perfect segue. I actually, it makes me think about that quote from Brene Brown, like clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And what I hear you saying is shift from, I need to be nice to I can be, yeah, I can be kind. And I think when I look at your list altogether, the things I think people struggle with right now is boundaries. And I think people still struggle with authenticity, authenticity, you're like that need to be the right kind of blank, you know. I'm curious about this one, people must like me. How do you see that hold us back as leaders? And then functioned, you know, for sure, the first half of my life and well beyond, I'm sure, with the idea that people needed to like me. So I grew up in a super teeny tiny town. And I think when you grow up in a super teeny tiny town,

there are wonderful, amazing things that come with that, right? And with any situation, there are also really super hard things that come with that. And I think one of the things was you, you wanted to be agreeable and likable. So you just got along because if you didn't, you were like socially ostracized, you know, it could be super painful. Um, so people must like me is all about being like in a place of safety. No, it's, it's not coming from a place of narcissism. I don't think at all because narcissism is more about control. Um, but people must like me as about, okay, who do you want me to be? And I'm going to be that person. So we scan the environment and we figure out what are the rules? What are the social rules here? And I'm going to show up as that person. Um, or I'm going to, I'm going to amplify this part of myself, or I'm going to

minimize this part of myself. So I can fit in here. And we have such a drive as humans to belong, you know, right way back in the day, it was all about survival, like belonging. We needed to belong. And, you know, the surgeon general says we have a national loneliness epidemic. Um, yeah. And what's really date. And this was even before COVID, you know, we, we really are a lonely nation. Um, and I hear phrases like couch rot. Have you heard this phrase? No, I have not. Tell me about this. I know. I guess it's a new phrase that gets to the idea like coming out of the pandemic. Why do I want to go out? It's just easier to like watch me on the couch, stay on the couch. Yeah. And so there's like, couch rot. It's like such a graphic phrase, but it gets to the idea like, I, I am just gonna stay, I'm just gonna stay here because this is

comfortable, or this is just what I've gotten used to. And what is the benefit of connecting, you know? So the, when people must like me though, it draws us away when it's, it's, I think so, so dangerous when we accept counterfeit belonging at the price of our authenticity, because, and we believe it was because we amplified this part of ourselves or we minimize this part of ourselves. And we miss the entire possibility that we could have connection, not in spite of who we are, but because of who we are. Yes. Awesome. Yeah. I love what you just said of connection with like who we really are. Right. When I hear you talking about people must like me, you said, who do you want me to be? So I'm not really being my true self. And that's not really how I fully connect with you either. If I'm not my full true self. Yes. And you know that the really hard thing about this is if, if somebody likes me and I've presented like this version of myself, they don't, and, and they, it's a disservice to them too, because they don't really know. Yeah. They don't really know.

Which of these other lies should we dive into? I'm curious about, you know, we talked about people must like me. I have to be nice. Are there any others that you see as more common as you speak on this topic? Yeah. Yep. Well, I, as I do, um, coaching with, um, executives, specifically women, um, one of the lies that comes up, I think often it's a, it's a combo because everything's like the meal deal here. You know, one is like, oh, you want to believe this one? I've got my buddy. It's BOGO. You can, you know, buy one, get one thing. Um, it's, I must finish what I start. And what does that mean? If you are a woman who, you know, you've, and I know other people have this experience too, where you're trying to balance life and work and responsibilities and everything. But if you have committed to really advancing in your career, um, if you're not going to get to the C-suite, um,

what does it look like to, to not finish what you started? Like, when is it okay to say, you know what, I thought this was going to be the end. This is, this was the end goal, but it's not worth it to me anymore. Like, I don't want that anymore. And is that okay? You know, if I've been on this path, this trajectory of advancing, advancing, giving so much of my time and my heart and my, you know, talent to growing my career, which, you know, helps. It's, it's an example for if you have a daughter, I hear a lot of executive women say, I, one of the things that drives me is to show my daughter that she can have this too.

At what point, at what point do we get to say, and I think this is what I'm trying to highlight. At some point we get to say the ROI is not worth it anymore, or my priorities have shifted. And that is not about failure. It's not about not finishing. It's simply about recognizing a shift in priorities or a shift in the landscape. You know, I think we see that a lot with people after COVID, leaders who, my gosh, we see this across healthcare. There is just a churn of DLNs, um, because, you know, leaders are burnt out. There's compassion fatigue. There's been moral injury where you've had to make decisions that went against what in your heart got you into this. Like, I mean, I have experiences where I had to tell families as a resident was dying at the, you know, care center. And I'm not the only one,

it was everywhere. I'm sorry. You can only have two family members here. You know, you're going to have to take, you're going to have to take turns and nobody got into healthcare to have to be that presence. So I see, I see that a lot. Yeah. and, or, or the com right before they go on hospice, the conversation with family of, we're going to fight this. We're going to fight this cancer. We're going to fight. We're going to fight. And at some point that person who's going through all the chemo, who's having all of the radiation, they may start thinking, I don't actually want to do this anymore, but I don't know that I get to stop because what does my family want? And so simply hitting pause and saying, let's check in how important

is quality of life right now. You know, what does that look like for you? That's why this lie can be so pervasive and so destructive and powerful. Yeah. I must finish what I start and the way we can move towards away from that towards moderation. And I mean, I was thinking about a couple of things, Sarah, as I was hearing you talk about that. I mean, such powerful examples of the end of our lives, right? And I was also resonating with what you were saying about the executives. And I think sometimes we're taught that when we set a goal, we have to accomplish it. But the way I think about goals is I want, and I love everyone who's listening to think about goals as more of like, who can you become as you're trying to reach that goal?

Because so many times our priorities do shift or our interests shift, or we start something and you're like, you know, that's actually what I think I'm called to do this. Or I think my purpose is to do this. And I used to think that I was a failure if I didn't reach my goals. And then, you know, then I would set myself up for more shame. So let's take this example of PEA because I want to spend just a tad bit more time. And I know we have to wrap it up, but I want to just reiterate PEA and how you could use that to address these lies. So P stands for pay attention.

E, examine, is this true, for example, and then apply the learning. So let's take an example that we can apply to PEA. How have maybe you, how have you used PEA? Or how have you, maybe there's a client who've used it that you can share with us a story. Sure. Yeah. Um, okay. So I'm, I'm thinking of a leader, um, who had a ton of responsibility in healthcare, um, and really, really believed the lie I'm responsible for it all. And given this person's position as, as overseeing lots of facilities, uh, they tended to micromanage, you know, because it was hard to step back, um, because they very much

felt this, the weight, you know, that phrase, the weight of responsibility. Sure. Um, I mean, even that phrase, like they're like, there's a magnitude to this. There's a seriousness, you know? And so, but this person was getting burned out, like so burned out. And when we're burned out, we're actually less effective. And it's so hard to let go, like so hard. And so we worked a lot just on getting feedback. What are other people, what are other people seeing in you? What's your family telling you? You know, how long does it take you to craft an email? So this is like the paying attention. Oh my goodness. Like it's taking me 20 minutes to craft an email and, you know, it should take me five, the beginning of the week, it takes me five by Friday, you know, 11 o'clock in the

morning is taking me 20. Um, so paying attention and then not just like your behavior and how your work is going, but what is going on inside of you? Like, are you happy? Like, do you feel, and if happy is not a word that resonates, that's okay. Do you feel energized? Do you feel, do you still feel like you have, like what you're doing connects with your gifts and your talents and your purpose? So it was that like paying attention to every time you started hearing that idea of I'm responsible for it all, which also flips into like, you know, you can't quit. Or it shows up in so many different guises. Like, well, work is hard. Like, yeah, work is hard.

Leading through a pandemic, unimaginable, right? And what is underneath that for you? So we just dug in and you don't do it once. It's not with these big things. It's not necessarily a one and done. We dig in, we look, we have some new learning. We apply that one little piece. So maybe it's putting more boundaries around your time. Maybe it's putting more boundaries.

I want to check in on my site supervisor. I want to check in with the administrator and see, are you doing this? Nope. I'm not going to, I am going to like, I'm going to say to them, I trust that you're doing your work and I need a report by Friday at three. Like we literally were like, what can you shift? So you can give more freedom back? And they're like, well, I still need to know. I get that. So now it's Friday at three. Right.

You got to get the report. And these are the things you want in it. And so that's the applyable learning. And so pay attention. You know, I, these are situations in my thinking where I feel like I'm responsible for it all. Get curious. Dig in. What is that actually true? Is that actually true? And sometimes it's helpful to look at like, what are other people in the same space doing? Because well, one, everybody could be like working kind of from that same mentality, or you might see the people who have, who are doing things you think are unimaginable, but if you imagined yourself doing that, it would be freedom or it

would be a little bit of like additional energy for you. So it's a constant process. Pay attention, examine, and then apply the learning. Awesome. Awesome. So I think these seven lies are so powerful. Tell us where we can get your book, Sarah, and where we can learn more about your work. Yes. So I am on LinkedIn. That is the best place for social media and best meaning only. Perfect. Yep. And then my website, just sarahchivari.com. My book, Finding Our Way to the Truth, Seven Lies Leaders Believe and How to Let Them Go. You can get that on Amazon or through Fortress Press.

And then I have another book coming out this fall, The Unnameable, Beyond EQ, A Deeper Level of Emotional Understanding for Leaders and Entrepreneurs. And that will be coming out this fall. So my website is the best place. Awesome. So sarachavari.com, check it out over there. Sarah, you also have a Dare to Lead training coming up where people can learn more about this in September. So tell us a bit

about, tell us a little bit about the workshop and the workshop series that you're going to be offering if people want to learn more about how to be vulnerable and how to really be courageous in their leadership. Yes. So this is the dare to lead training that syndrome went through back in June. It is 21 hours of in-person and then homework in addition to that. And you become dare to lead trained. So what you get on the backside is continuing education credits, units, a LinkedIn badge, and then the Daring Rollout program, which you can then bring to your team. And it's like a robust book study that Brene's team put together to help leaders continue the conversation in their organizations. So those are the nuts and

bolts of what you receive, but the intangibles is an incredible learning community with other high achieving professionals who do want to grow in how they're showing up and how they're leading. It's transformational. So you can learn more on my website. We will attach a code, a discount code. So because you are a follower of Sindra's good work, you'll have access to this discount code. And it starts the first, it starts Friday, September 8th. So it runs a series of Fridays in the fall. Awesome. And you can, if you go to the show notes right now,

if you scroll down on your phone, you'll be able to see the discount code there. And definitely I would recommend it. I grew so much as a leader, but also as a parent and as a person and just love diving into the content with you and all the others that were in the group. So Sarah, I'm going to summarize today. I love this idea of being afraid, right? Where we're

afraid and brave at the same time. And it means, you know, moving towards the things that I think are scary. That's when we're afraid. I thought your content about the seven lies leaders believe. I don't know enough. I must finish what I start. I must follow the rules. I have to be nice. People must like me. I'm responsible for it all.

And I need to be the right type of blank, whatever that might be. Just so powerful because I know we all experience those lies. And thought the most helpful one we are talking about is like, I need to finish what I start. And you said, my priorities have shifted and that's okay, right? And I just added that goals are meant to be, you know, who you can become when you set them less about if you check them off or not. And at the end, when we're talking about PEA, the way to overcome these lies is to pay attention,

examine, is this true? And then apply the learning. So do you have any final thoughts for people who are listening? I'm so grateful that you've been on today. It has been so fun. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I think a final thought to share is just the more we support one another in good learning and showing up more authentically in our lives, the better we all are for it. So thank you for this opportunity. You bet. Thank you, Sarah, for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump.

Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe. And you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes. And to join my exclusive community for high performers, where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A dot com. See you next week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindhra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A.com. See you next week.