High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 584: The Science and Application of Choking Under Pressure with Dr. Chris Mesagno, Researcher & Sport Psychology Practitioner

Episode Date: December 9, 2023

Dr. Christopher Mesagno is a Senior Lecturer in Sport and Exercise Psychology at Victoria University in Melbourne, Australia. With over 20 years of research expertise in anxiety, attention and concentration skills, Dr. Chris has successfully developed theory-matched interventions to improve performance for highly anxious and “choking-susceptible” athletes.  Dr. Chris has an internationally-recognized research profile with 60+ research articles and book chapters published and national and international conference presentations including keynote speaking engagements.  Dr. Chris is a Fellow of the Association for Applied Sport Psychology (AASP), which recognizes significant contributions to the sport and exercise psychology community and to the AASP organization. Dr. Chris works with numerous athletes from a range of team and individual sports to enhance mental skills for better performance and mental health outcomes with a specific focus on performance under pressure.  In this podcast, Chris and Cindra talk: The 3 components of choking How choking is linked to mental health What makes you susceptible to choking And practical, research-backed tools to reduce choking   HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE: www.cindrakamphoff.com/584 FOLLOW CINDRA ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/cindrakamphoff/ FOLLOW CINDRA ON X: https://twitter.com/mentally_strong TO FOLLOW CHRIS ON X: https://twitter.com/cmesagno Love the show? Rate and review the show for Cindra to mention you on the next episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-performance-mindset-learn-from-world-class-leaders/id1034819901  

Welcome to episode 584. This is your host, Dr. Sindhara Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today on the High Performance Mindset Podcast. I am grateful that you can use to reduce your chances of choking under pressure and how you can be clutch in pressure moments instead. Now, let me tell you about Dr. Chris Massagno. He is a senior lecturer in sport and exercise psychology at Victoria University in Melbourne, Australia. With over 20 years of research expertise in anxiety,

attention, and concentration skills, Dr. Chris has successfully developed theory-matched interventions to improve performance for choking susceptible athletes and people. He is an internationally recognized research scholar with over 60 research articles and book chapters. He's also a fellow of the Association for Applied Sports Psychology, which recognizes significant contributions to the field of sports psychology. In this episode, Chris and I talk about number one, the three components of choking. We talk about how choking is linked to mental health issues, the difference between choking and being clutch in moments that really matter, what makes you susceptible to choking, and practical research-backed tools to reduce

choking. To see the full show notes of this episode, you can head over to syndracampoff.com slash 584 for episode 584. All right. I know you're going to enjoy this one. Let's welcome Chris. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Chris Massagno. Thank you so much for joining us here on the High Performance Mindset. I'm pumped today to talk to you about all your research. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. I've been following along with you for a while, so it's really fun to have you on the podcast. And maybe just to kind of give us a little bit about your passion and what you do, just start us off with that. Yeah, so what I do is, at the moment, I'm at Victoria University University and I'm a senior lecturer here at Victoria University in Australia.

As you might be able to tell, I'm not necessarily Australian, but I am an Australian citizen now. I went to the University of Florida and studied under Chris Janelle at the University of Florida and did my psychology bachelor's and also a master's degree there at the University of Florida. So my passion is in sport and exercise psychology. And I first got started when, you know, I did a sports psychology class under Chris Janelle and then continued on from there. So and the really big thing, the area of research that I'm focused on is the anxiety in sports and also choking under pressure and what happens when people actually can't perform well under the high pressures of sport in that context. So that's really my passion along with other exercise psychology related

research domains. And that's what I'm, along with other exercise psychology related research domains. And that's what I'm most excited to talk to you about today is your research about choking and anxiety. And we're going to talk about it today related to sport, but also high pressure moments in business or other performing avenues or domains such as like performing arts and things like that. Because, you know, the thing is that, Chris, we all experience pressure. And there are times where one particular time I remember feeling like I choked, you know. And so I would like to avoid that in the future. And I know everyone, you know, experiences high pressure moments if they're really going after their big goals. So what got you started, you know, studying choking

and anxiety? Let's just kind of share with that story with everyone. Yeah, well, I'm quite interested in, in the anxiety side of things. I used to be, or I was a collegiate athlete. I actually did 10 pin bowling when I was in college. And previous to that, I was a 10th in bowler in the state of Florida as well. And for your listeners, I'm actually a Florida, Florida State Youth Hall of Famer. Nice. It's just something that I just kind of did as well. So that was quite nice to be recognized back in, well, we won't say the year. We'll just leave it at that. Perfect.

And so, yeah, I got started in this passion because I was a tendon bowler. And, and from what, you know, if you know anything about golf or tendon bowling, it's much more than just throwing the ball down the lane or hitting a golf ball in golf. It's about the mental side of things. And so I, I got involved because I had some, once in a while, I had some issues with anxiety in sports in the tendon bowling scenario and very interested in how to deal with that. And yeah, overcame it by doing more research in the mental game. Yeah, that's how I got involved in sport and performance psychology as well as, you know, trying to figure out myself. And, you know, how could I continue to be my best? Because I felt like there was times where I definitely got in my own way as a college athlete.

So we have a similar story there. Well, they say, you know, it's not research, it's me-search, right? Exactly. Trying to figure yourself out in some respects. Yes, I'm still doing a lot of me-search, you know. Hey, I'm talking to you for me-search. So there you go. Fair enough I'm talking to you for me search. So there you go.

Let's define choking for everyone who might not really know what it means from a conceptual and research standpoint. Yeah, so choking generally is an increase in anxiety. And that leads to a decrease in performance. And most of the time, most researchers would agree that there are a few elements that are involved in choking specifically. One is that there has to be an increase in anxiety. So if there's no pressure on you, it can't be choking, irrespective of whether you're good at what you do or you're just a novice, it can't be choking.

The second one has to be skilled performance. whether you're good at what you do or you're just a novice, it can't be choking. The second one has to be skilled performance. So there's a debate in the literature at the moment that novices can't choke or may not choke. Well, the bottom line there is that if novices have too much variability in their performance, it's very difficult to determine whether it is a choking experience or not. So that's the second element. And the third element, for the most part, there's probably four, but the third element is largely a decrease in performance. Now, when we're talking about that, there's a debate in the literature at the moment as

well that it has to be a considerable decrease in performance not just a oh i missed a shot here or there whatever because um there's a thing called underperformance where you know some athletes say well i just it was a bad bad luck or you know wasn't a good shot in that context it wasn't about anxiety or anything like that so that's the that's the other thing and then den Denise Hill might say that, you know, debilitative anxiety, the anxiety that you're experiencing, you need to feel like it's bad for you. Now, again, whether that's true or not, we don't know. But generally, those three elements, besides the debilitative anxiety elements, those three elements need to be involved to be a choking experience. Chris, one thing that I'm thinking about is, you know, even as practitioners in performance psychology, they usually make this field goal, but one second left in the game, they missed it, they choked.

And we don't necessarily know if they choked because we don't know if they had debilitating anxiety. So how do you define that? Like, when is it just, you know, a mistake versus if we've choked? How do we know that for our own self and maybe as we're watching other people perform? Yeah, well, for your own self, you probably have to self-reflect. Yes. Was I feeling anxious? Was I feeling anxiety? Did I perform below my normal standards in that context? So if you feel like those two things, if there was an increase in anxiety when you were performing and you probably could have made that shot in practice or whatever, or could have performed, you know, in a in a public speaking role a little bit better in a practice situation, then it's very likely that you did experience choking in that context. So I would say those

self-reflection is a big thing. And again, going back to the athlete that the NFL kicker that might have missed the field goal. Uh, it is about asking them, you know, you, you can only do so much speculation, at least from a outsider's point of view. And you do really have to ask the athlete and, you know, sometimes athletes may not want to be labeled as a choker. So they might not necessarily tell you the truth. Exactly. I don't want to be, and I don't even know if I want to label myself as a choker. So there's that. Exactly. So that you do really have to get an honest opinion from the person that actually experiences it. And yeah, that's how you determine whether it was

an actual experience. And as you know, as a psychologist, acknowledging the problem is the first step to curing or preventing the problem. So that's a big thing in that context. And so the third part of considerable decline in performance, so we know there's some kind of decline in performance. I'm curious what you think considerable means, and then just generally tell us what you see is the impact of choking on our performance. Yeah, so considerable, again, you're getting the right questions. Okay, that's good. Even in the research, even in the research debate at the moment, you have made in a hundred ninety

nine point nine percent of the other times that they had it if they had increased anxiety that and they missed that putt i would label that as a choker because most of the time if you're doing it 99.9 of the time you're very likely uh choking because you would because you should have made that putt in a practice situation. So, yeah, considerable, I would say, depends on the situation. And that is the major debate at the moment is, you know, if we're doing it in a laboratory setting, yes, we might be able to have people take 20 putts. And 20% of the time, if they miss it under pressure, you know, that is a considerable choking experience. We might be able to debate that.

But again, in the real world, you know, maybe missing two free throws in a row in the last two seconds of the game when you can win the game for your team is a choking experience because of that heightened anxiety. So again, it depends on the situation. And yeah, it's hard to talk about the idea of considerable. Yeah, what that actually means. And so, you know, the impact of choking, when I think about the time where I felt like I choked, and I did have this like heightened anxiety in the moment. Maybe my focus was more on like who was watching than on the task and being connected with the task. So I was a little distracted or at least my focus was misplaced. And so, you know, for me, how that impacted me was definitely decline in performance. It was actually when I was speaking and that's never happened to me before where I lost what I was talking about. Like it just kind of blanked in the moment.

And then the impact of that over time is, you know, when I think about that, I think, gosh, I'm not, you know, lacking confidence. And so I could see how, and that doesn't normally happen to me. So it was just this one moment in time, but if I keep on replaying it, it could really impact me as a professional. So I'm curious, what do you see the maybe short term and long term consequences of choking just in general? Yeah, so you're hitting everything, all of the things that you've said, you're hitting all of the theoretical. Okay, hey, I'm on track. You know, it is quite literally, you know, the social anxiety, you know, sport is a, in the context of the grand scheme of things, sport is really played under anxiety, social anxiety, because you're being watched all the time, right? In a high pressure situation, you're being watched and you're being evaluated specifically.

So really, that's what you're talking about. And even in a public speaking scenario, that's the same thing. You're being evaluated and what are people thinking and that sort of thing. So one of my theories in relation to the anxiety side of things is related to social anxiety and aspects of that. But certainly the short-term and long-term effects, we We're doing research at the moment on the mental health aspects of choking. And what we're finding is that, you know, asking questions about suicidality and have you suicidal thoughts as a result of choking experiences. And most of those are from high performance athletes. So those athletes who really want to be elite level athletes and potentially professionals and those types of things. So again, this really affects short term and long term. It really affects some athletes. So we really need to think about these high-performance athletes.

And even we can go into the high-performance business people as well. Yes. If they can't do some public speaking and they struggle with that, you know, who are they? Right. You know, their identity is shot because they're not a business person anymore. Same thing with these athletes. If they can't perform under pressure, who are they? They're not an athlete.

Who are they? So again, those types of things. And one of the other things that's interesting is 13% of athletes have quit sport altogether because maybe they're a chronic choker or they they can't perform under pressure at all uh they've actually suggested in our anonymous survey that they've they've quit sport altogether because they just can't perform under pressure so again it's not only about you know um performing under pressure and and the fact that people may drop out it's also about the fact that people they're not as self-compassionate they're not as compassionate for for themselves

and with themselves and they tend to potentially drop out of sport or even have um suicidal thoughts and we don't know how many um we didn't ask the question, have you attempted suicide? But certainly, just the fact that they've considered it, it was like, oh my god, are you serious? Like, really? So we really do have to watch out for these consequences of not being able to perform under pressure. I appreciate you saying that because, you know, I think that's the why we need to reduce incidents of us choking, but also I appreciate what you said about self compassion and in my work with business professionals, entrepreneurs, athletes, I mean, through in my work with people, self-compassion comes up in every conversation, not every conversation every time, but like with every single person I work with, because especially high performers, they don't they think maybe the, what's the best thing to do when we choke? How does self-compassion fit with that? And then I

know we're going to dive into that a little bit more, but I'm just curious about that since you just said it. Yeah, well, I think you're hitting it again on the head. The idea is there's a balance, isn't there? You need to be driven and a high performer in that context but you also need to to allow yourself some space allow yourself some uh some wiggle room some some leeway and allow yourself to to potentially uh have difficult times as well. So really, there is a bit of a, potentially, hopefully, there's a bit of a shift in sport generally, that we're looking at high performers and focusing on that idea of really wanting to do well. But also, if you're not doing as well, then how do you deal with that? How do you be kind to yourself in that context? And that's really what we want to see is that, yes, you want to be driven to get to

the professional level and those types of things, but what happens if you don't? Can you deal with that? And can you be kind to yourself in those? I don't want, I don't like to say fail, failing moments, but, you know, there's only one winner in every competition, right? So, you know, I wouldn't say you're a failure if you've gotten, you know, fifth or sixth or seventh place, but certainly there's room for improvement. So we do need to be kind to ourselves in that, in that context. So I'm curious, Chris, in terms of, I have a former student who, her business is actually called Clutch Performance. So I'm thinking about what does it mean to, you know, psychologically, what's the difference when we can feel like, well, we're clutch, where we can really capitalize

in the moment and perform at our best versus when we choke? What are the differences from the research and from, you know, what you've read and seen and learned more about? What are the differences from the research and from, you know, what you've read and seen and learn more about? What are the differences psychologically when we choke versus when we're able to really be a clutch performer? Yeah, good question. In that context, I think I'll talk about the similarities first, and then I'll talk about the differences. And that is, everyone is going to feel nervousness. Everyone's going to feel anxious, you might be able to say it's excitement, or, well, you might be able to say the heart rate increases, and then that could be interpreted as excitement versus anxiety, whatever it is, again, the interpretation of that

is probably one of the biggest things in relation to clutch performance versus choking experiences and that is the mindset of the athlete in this context the sporting athlete uh in that context is the biggest thing so thinking about clutch it might be that people are uh think you think of the or interpret the anxiety or the heart rate increasing as excitement or facilitative and really helpful for their performance versus unhelpful you know as a threat or a challenge again you can talk about it from a number of different positive versus negative standpoints having a challenge in in front of you in that context. And the clutch performer thinks of it as a challenge versus the choker thinks of it as a threat in that context. So there really is the mindset that changes

more so than anything else. But I feel like the anxiety itself or the heart rate pumping and the physiology of it sort of doesn't really change as much. It's just the fact that the mindset for that player or that athlete or that business person actually is the big difference. That's really eye-opening and really helpful, especially as people are listening to think about are you interpreting that anxiety as facilitative or not or when I think about challenge versus threat I think about when I have a challenge mindset I'm like okay I'll have the resources within me to get through this I have everything I need to get through this versus if it's a threat I think I don't have the resources I don't have what it takes to be successful here within me right I don't have what it takes to be successful here within me, right? Or I don't have the skills or

I don't have the knowledge. And so, you know, that's so helpful just to know that the anxiety is the same. It's just about how we're viewing the anxiety and if we can be clutch in that moment versus choke. Yeah, you feel capable, don't you? You feel confident and all that stuff. Yeah, definitely. You're hitting it on the head as well. feel confident in all that stuff. Yeah, definitely. You're hitting it on the head as well. You're not even a researcher. Look at that. You're a sports psychologist.

Just a practitioner over here. Practitioner. And you know most of the research already. I'm sure it's having done the sports psychology side of things and being a sports psychologist for high performance athletes and business people i'm sure that all helps yeah in the context but you're on the right track and i was a researcher in my former lifetime about you know 10 years ago before i really started doing more applied work i realized i realized that after i said it but i know you that you're consulting more right now than you are yeah yeah. So that's, that's fine. Just not a research, research expert in choking, but you know, some of the ins and outs of it. So that's good.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Okay. I'm knowledgeable about this. I appreciate you saying that. My next question is, are there certain sports or situations that we're more prone to choke in sports or outside of sport? Yeah. So within a sporting context, more skill-based sports, such as golf or darts or tenpin bowling or even individual tasks within sports like tennis serving or basketball free throw shooting, that sort of thing, those skill-based sports are more prone to choking because there's more prone to being over analytical on those particular tasks and thinking too much because that's where one of the theories sort of comes from, the idea of being analytical and paralysis by analysis if you will in that context so so that

sporting was more skill based versus effort based sports like athletics or sprinting and those types of things it's not that ever effort based sports don't have choking it's just the fact that it's harder to sort of determine if choking has occurred in those sports generally. Situation-based, really, it does come down to, because anxiety is linked to how important the situation is. The importance of the situation is really the determinant of whether anxiety actually increases even a little bit or not. So any situation that involves importance, it could be, you know, you know, we think of high pressure as, you know, 100,000 people in the crowd with camera light, you know, cameras on you and lights going and all that stuff. And you're the center of attention and

that sort of thing. But people can actually experience choking just by a weekend warrior who's relatively skilled um you know comes into a situation with their friend on the weekend and they think they need to win this particular um you know free throw competition and that you might you might experience choking from that, um, specifically as well, because the importance of the situation increases. So if you take that importance, uh, of the situation to any other life event, whether it be performing arts, a surgeon, uh, in the ED or, uh, you know, anything like that, you'll, you'll see that they're stroking in any of those scenarios or even in what we think is not that anxiety provoking, but is important to the person themselves.

A public speaking event or a job interview, those types of things are all linked, can be all linked. Test anxiety, like taking a test, even though no one knows your score except for you and maybe the teacher, unless you tell people, you know, it's all linked. So, yeah, choking can be experienced in any of those scenarios. I think about my 16-year-old son just took his driver's test. And, you know, I don't know if he experienced choking, but he definitely experienced high anxiety because that was really important. And if he didn't, if he didn't pass, right, then what would people at school say? I was also thinking,

he did. Yeah. Thank goodness. Very clutch, very clutch, very clutch. Or I was thinking about I'm a keynote speaker, Chris, and my first speaker showcase was, and so basically this is, you know, to speak. And this is when I was just getting started. And so I remember just as I was waiting for, as I was watching everyone and waiting for my turn, a lot of thoughts on comparison, wow, I don't measure up or man, there's so much better speaker than I was. And that's what led to some anxiety for me. I definitely didn't perform up to my standard, you know, because of that anxiety. Yeah, exactly. And again, that's just a part for the courses.

And sometimes the anxiety is helpful in that context. Sometimes it, you know, you succumb to some of it. But again, it's all a learning experience. And that's what I've, I've said that in some of my other discussions with people and that is Denise Hill and others came out with a paper on whether choking is constructive versus destructive. And it's all about the learning experience, isn't it? It's all about how you deal with it and what you learn from it.

And if you can learn, you know, about, you know, why you've experienced choking and what you're thinking and those types of things, you can certainly overcome it. So it doesn't necessarily have to be paralyzing for you if you want to learn from the experience. And I think about how that maybe relates to my experience that first speaker showcase I was in, I did never want to feel like the experience. And I think about how that maybe relates to my experience that first speaker showcase I was in, I did never want to feel like that again. So I was extra prepared and knew the mindset, right?

I sort of got in of comparison. So I did a lot of work, right, to crush the next one. But I do see that as happening for me because it helped me, you know, now do better in the other ones that allowed me to really start my speaking career. Hi, this is Cyndra Campoff, and thanks for listening to the High Performance Mindset. Did you know that the ideas we share in the show are things we actually specialize in implementing? If you want to become mentally stronger, lead your team more effectively and get to your goals quicker, visit freementalbreakthroughcall.com to sign up for your free mental breakthrough call with one of our certified coaches. Again, that's freementalbreakthroughcall.com to sign up for your free call.

Talk to you soon. Let's talk about how, because I think that's so important to really give people some tools and strategies on, okay, how can they reduce their experience choking? What can they do if they've choked? And how can instead, right, can they be clutch? And I was reading your systematic review on choking that was published in an international review of sport and exercise psychology. And you said that the most reported effective interventions were pre-performance routines, quiet eye training, left-hand contractions, and like different types of training. I want you to tell us about those, that finding and, and really, right, to help us think about how can we use this in our own lives?

Yeah, that's all right. Before we actually go into that, I do want to say it's not necessarily only me. Peter Groppel was the driver of this research. Yeah. So he's my co-author in that. So I just wanted to sort of acknowledge him because he was the driver and he asked me to help out. And we did this great study that included 47 published choking-specific articles. And we identified them on the basis of the two different, mainly two different theories of choking. And I just want to highlight those theories before I go into those interventions. And because they were really theory, the interventions were theory matched. So what I mean by theory matched is that the theory that we had, we took interventions that linked to those theories. And we used specifically or we identified those interventions in the

articles based on that. So the two theories that are really the robust theories in the choking literature are the self-focus model and the distraction model. And the distraction model basically says that when you have an increase in anxiety, generally your attention changes to a distraction, whether it be an internal distraction. It could be the fact that you're feeling a bit nervous. Your heart is racing and you're a bit distracted by that in your physiology. Or it could be an external thing like NFL kicker that's distracted by either the crowd or the opposition players trying to block the kick or the field goal, those types of things. So again, when we are distracted, that attention changes, and that's an issue within a choking experience.

And really, it is a part of anxiety. Anxiety is the reason why we get distracted. So the second one is self-focused model. And as I said before, paralysis by analysis, it's really about overanalyzing your technique when you're more experienced. So what we found, what people are finding is that when anxiety increases, your attention shifts automatically, if we want to say that, to thinking too much. When in actuality, if you're an expert, you shouldn't have to think about performance movements and those types of things at all, because it's relatively automatic. So it gives you a context of those two models. Now, with that said, these interventions, so we use pre-performance routines as an intervention to allow people to

focus on their move, sorry, focus on the skill itself and not be distracted. So that's linked to the distraction model. And again, if you can focus on what you're doing before the shots or before the kick or whatever it is, then you are less distracted by other things around you when anxiety actually increases. And that's one of those interventions that's positive. The other three are linked to the self-focus model or that paralysis by analysis sort of model. Quiet eye training is when you focus your eyes on a particular target for a longer period of time than you would normally. And if you can fixate your eyes on a target, let's say you're hitting a golf ball and you're fixating on the dimples of the golf ball. If you can fixate your eyes more on that, those dimples and you can, you can probably hit the

shot better in that context. And that's what we're finding from that literature. Left hand contractions are, are actually squeezing a stress ball in your left hand. And that links to motor control related stuff and uh and brain functioning and the fact that you're relaxed we'll say you're you're relaxing the uh the the right side of your brain a little bit more and uh reducing the amount of analytical brain functioning that's involved in performing the task when you squeeze that stress ball in your left hand. And then acclimatization training is its own thing. And that is practicing with minor anxiety prior to a high pressure situation. So, you know, as we were talking, maybe, you know, as an example, let's say I'm

playing golf with a friend and we put $5, you know, a bet on who's going to win, you know, that minor acclimatization or assimilation training actually helps with dealing with a high pressure situation later on when you actually get into a competition so those were the main main findings um in that context and they they link to the different theories as well i just learned something i did i did really cool i learned i was actually thinking about a golfer I work with. And wow, if he's, you know, walking between shots, and he has like a squeeze ball in his left hand, how that might help him reduce stress and anxiety, or gosh, maybe I could do that before I speak. Right. So that's cool. Is there any research about how long we should do that for yeah so uh so some of our research with peter groffel and uh jürgen beckman and others um we well they based on jürgen beckman felix erlenspiel and peter groffel all started that research back in 2013 and found 30 seconds was a good amount of time to squeeze the ball in the left hand prior to shots

or prior to public speaking, that sort of thing. We've actually reduced that down to about 10 or 15 seconds, 10 or 15 seconds before shots or throws or whatever, and found that that's effective as well. So anywhere, I would say at least 10 seconds, but 30 seconds. And sometimes when I'm doing public speaking as well, or doing a presentation, I sometimes have the stress ball in my hand and I just use it for minutes, you know, like just to keep relaxed and keep calm and that sort of thing. And I do feel like it does actually, you know, relax me while I'm doing it. And then when I get up on stage or when I'm,

you know, starting my presentation, I feel probably a little bit more relaxed than I was previously when I didn't use the stress ball. So yeah, it does, you know, it depends on the situation, but 10 seconds, you know, it's, it's good for some athletes that just have a quick sort of routine or a quick turnaround before shots. Yeah. Love that. I'm going to start using that. So I appreciate that. When you were talking about the quiet eye training and you gave an example of like in golf, the dimples of the ball. So let's think about, let's say if you're not a golfer, how could you use that in other sports or outside of sports? And maybe how do you use that for yourself? Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna say outside of sports. So there's some, there's some research to suggest that just focusing on, you know, somewhere, a part of the room or a wall or whatever, just to, you know, or even the monitor, you know, some some place on the monitor, if you if you have a PowerPoint presentation, just for a few seconds allows you to gather your thoughts and focus your concentration a little bit more.

So if you're doing a public speaking engagement or you have a job interview or whatever prior to going into the interview, you might actually just, even if it's just sort of zoning out, you know, and looking at something for a few seconds, at least you're focusing, concentrating on a particular point and may allow you to relax that just a little bit more or at least retain some thoughts and focus your mind on what you need to do going into that interview in that context so yeah i think it's relevant to to anyone uh if we go into surgery like yeah i same same type of thing um really focusing on what you're doing and being you know it could

be being mindful of you know in a surgeon's point of view, washing your hands properly, you know, that sort of thing. That would be an example of going into that. And, you know, outside of the sport context might be a good way of doing that. Excellent. So practical and helpful. And I like the way that you're describing these really complex ideas into really simple ways that we could actually use it. Are there any other suggestions you might give to people to reduce experiences with choking? In that particular study, that review, we also found that in some situations dual tasks actually help, again, self-focus related or choking related to the self-focus model we we found one of our my studies found that music actually as a dual task is very

beneficial we don't know why yet because no studies have followed up my original study about why music actually does have a beneficial effect on at least sport performance but I would say in the context of other things outside of sport using music as a way to relax you before a high pressure situation such as going into surgery or yeah you know you see some of these shows that surgeons are actually listening to music while they while they're actually in surgery like yeah maybe that's a relaxing effect so yeah I believe you know music does have an effect on either you know getting your mind away from if you need to do intricate movements in a particular sport or surgery, that sort of thing. It gets you away from thinking about those things,

and you're more likely to be automatic in your movements in that context. So, yeah, it's very, I would say dual task. Dual task came from the idea that you count backwards from 1,000 by seven or threes and distract yourself in that context as well so um yeah but music idea is more practical uh it's it's more relevant rather than sort of you know if you tell an athlete can you you know while you're you know throwing this free throw i want you to count backwards from 100 i'd be like oh man okay that. That's going to be distracting. Why would you want me to do that?

And you have to really explain, you know, it is for your own benefit. If you're analytical and you count backwards and in your own head or out loud, then you're less likely to think about, and we call it reinvestment or reinvest, think about the rules of the skill on how to actually do the free throw and the actual skill itself. So you really have to convince some of these, and I will say that with these interventions, some of these you will have to convince people that it's going to be beneficial. Like the dual task, it sounds counterproductive, but it's going to be beneficial. Like, you know, the dual task, you know, it sounds counterproductive, but it's actually beneficial. Left hand ball squeezing is the same. Why would you, you know, why would why would I want to do that? Like, I don't see any point in actually doing it. But you have to explain it to the athlete a little bit more. And they'll get their buy-in. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was also reading your 2021 study published in the Journal of Applied Sports Psychology, and it was titled Irrational Beliefs

and Choking Under Pressure. So that's something we haven't really talked too much about is like our beliefs and how they might lead to pressure. Tell us what you found in that study and how we might be able to apply it to our own lives. Yeah. So in that study, irrational beliefs in that study kind of were defined as rigid, rigid thoughts. Okay. So in that context, it's about saying things that can't be changed or those thoughts that may not necessarily be flexible. So irrational beliefs might be something like, I need, and that word need, I need to make this putt to win. Or I need to hit this home run to be successful in this baseball game. So need or must or have to, like they are all, there's no flexibility in that. There's no going back from that particular belief or that comment. So that's the first idea. And basically we asked people to fill out an irrational performance beliefs

inventory or questionnaire. And we've got a number on how high or low they are on their irrational beliefs related to that. And we looked at individuals in a low and a high pressure situation. In this case, it wasralian football uh many uh u.s listeners may not necessarily know what australian football is but basically um if you take a field goal in in nfl um uh it's you know you try to have you have to kick a ball through a particular goal and a set shot is kind of the same same thing but you have it in your hands and you actually, it's like a punt, but you kick it through the goal instead. And we had individuals in a low and a high pressure situation in that Australian set shot situation. irrational beliefs actually increased, especially for chokers specifically, those people that experienced choking. In a low pressure situation, irrational beliefs were actually good. They're

okay. No big deal. The performance actually increased. Again, I want to emphasize these were chokers. We separated these individuals a little bit more after a further analysis, the chokers were people that actually had a considerable decrease in performance in the high pressure situation. So these people were the 15% or higher of a decrease in performance rather than just a 5% or underperformance type of thing. So and we found that they were good. OK, they were OK in the low pressure situation as their irrational beliefs increased. Generally, they tended to increase performance. But in the high pressure, if they had higher irrational beliefs, they tended to decrease performance. That's when it hurt them the most. We don't know why. Again, this was an initial investigation to this irrational beliefs idea. We don't know why this is the case. But again, it really does say something to the point that if I say I must make this putt or I

must kick this set shot in Australian football, then it really does have an effect on your high pressure situation and also your low pressure situation as well. Because if you go into practice and you're kicking, you know, with this mindset, you're kicking great. What will happen in the high pressure situation if these results are accurate, which is really interesting because if you still have that irrational belief, those irrational beliefs in the high pressure situation, then you might stuff up. You might mess up in that particular high pressure situation, but you won't know it in the practice situation because they're good for you in that context. That's so helpful. And the practical point that

I could make for myself and for those people I work with and everyone's listening is like noticing when you have these irrational, really rigid thoughts of I need to, I must, I have to, if I don't, you know, like extreme type of thinking. And particularly in pressure moments, we want to just notice those. And what I would say is, first step is always noticing. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing, you know, seek out a sports psychologist or talk to Sindra, especially about how you're considering the thoughts that you have. And again, notice what happens in a high-pressure situation if you are performing worse under pressure and in a high-pressure situation.

Notice what you're thinking in that context. And say, look, I'm okay when there's not much pressure. If you say, I must or I have to and those types of things, does that help you in a high-pressure situation? Do you feel like you're more anxious in that high-pressure situation? And maybe test it. Maybe say, you know, in one game you might, you know, follow through with those I must or I have to.

But if it's not working, change your thoughts to, you know, it's, I might, or I could, or I, you know, those, those less rigid thoughts in relation to the high pressure situation. So, you know, one way of doing that is just changing those, the one or two words that are rigid from, from I must to, I would like to, I would like to make this putt. But if it, you know, but if I don't, you know, and then continue the sentence, but if I don't, everything's going to be fine. Everything's good. It's no big deal. That sort of thing. Yeah. So helpful and practical. All right. My last question is, are there personality differences that lead us to choking versus being able to be clutch? Yep. And I'm going to say, because I'm a qualitative researcher as well, I'm going to say

yes. Awesome. And then I'll continue, I'll continue that. And, and, and continue that by saying social anxiety, as I said before, is a big thing in relation to these issues. So athletes who have experienced or generally experience higher social anxiety when they're in a attention demanding situation, that they're going to be more prone to experiencing choking more than others. Now, with that said, personality types or personality characteristics. Um, I have a PhD student at the moment who's doing a study, found about 10 personality characteristics that uh have links to uh more choking susceptible those people that might be susceptible to choking or decreased performance under pressure um then then others so i'll just give you a few of them because i won't go into the details of all of them because i might need to define a little bit, a couple of them.

But the more prone athletes may have things like higher self-consciousness. So they think about what people are thinking about them before they plan or before they actually perform skills. And they're a bit more self-conscious. Most people would probably know what self-conscious is. They have higher trait anxiety. So social anxiety, if you will. But trait anxiety is the previous position to be anxious. So in that situation, it leads to higher situational anxiety as well. I would say another one is higher perfectionism. The more perfectionistic you are,

the more you want to be perfect in all of your movements, the more likely you experience choking because you go into that self-focus, that paralysis by analysis side of things. And then also that high reinvestment as well. That's another personality characteristic. You tend to think about the movement more when you're in high pressure situations and you reinvest. You think about the facts of the skill, the rules of the skill, rather than actually allowing your body to do it itself and allow your brain,

the most powerful computer in the world, if you will, to do its job rather than, again, you override that system. So that's another one. So I'll leave it there. We can kind of go into the ideas of irrational beliefs and those types of things. But those are probably the most widely known and the most researched in the context of choking at the moment. Dr. Chris, this has been so helpful and practical and useful. And I love how you took really complex ideas and put them into things

that we could actually use. I'm going to do my best to summarize everything we've talked about. We'll see how I do. Three components of choking. There needs to be high anxiety, typically skilled performance, and some kind of decline in performance. We talked about is it a considerable decline or what that looks like? We were talking about the difference between clutch performance, choking performance, 10% of, we were talking about like suicidal thoughts when they have a clutch, athletes when they have a, not a clutch performance, but a choking performance. And that's the reason I think we want to help athletes and just, you know, non-athletes be able to deal with choking experiences. We talked about self-compassion.

We talked about various different interventions like pre-performance routines, quiet eye training, left hand contraction. That's what I didn't realize. And then we talked about the different theories of choking and the personality types that might lead to more being choking susceptible. So what a fun, outstanding interview. Thanks so much for being here and just really helping us all think about how we can use this research that you've been studying. How could people reach out to you and learn more about what you do? Yeah. So firstly, thanks very much for having me on such an amazing podcast, Indra. I've looked at and listened to some of the podcasts already and the amazing people that you have on here. I'm just a pleasure and I feel so appreciative of you inviting me into the program. Thanks very much. People can follow me on Twitter or X as they call it now.

Yes. On C. Massagno on the Twitter handle. And you can also find me on the Victoria University website. Just Google my name, Chris Massagno at Victoria University, and you can find me there and email. My email address is there if you want to contact me at all. Excellent. What final advice or thoughts do you have for people who are listening today?

So my final thoughts in relation to choking specifically in high performers is probably everyone, even if they don't don't say it uh most people i would say 90 of people experience anxiety in sports and potentially lead that potentially leads to choking or at least underperformance you can learn from it and you can it can be constructive and the main thing i would say is irrespective of whether you perform well or, uh, uh, not so well under pressure, uh, be kind to yourself, uh, when experiencing high performance situations, uh, and ensure that, uh, you take care of yourself, uh, generally.

That's beautiful. Thank you for crushing it here on the high performance mindset. We're grateful that you're here. Thanks very much, Linda. Way to go for finishing another episode of the High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe.

And you can head over to Dr. Sindra for show notes and to join my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again, you can head over to Dr. Sindra. That's D-R-C-I-N-D-R-A dot com. See you next week.