High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 696: Truth, Lies, and Leadership: How to Use Body Language to Detect Deception with Traci Brown

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

In this fascinating and high-energy episode, I interview Traci Brown—ranked the #3 body language expert in the world and a go-to voice on lie detection, deception, and influence. A former elite cyclist turned deception detection expert, Traci brings a rare combination of athletic discipline and forensic insight to her work. Traci is a frequent television guest featured on CBS, NBC, and Nancy Grace, and is the author of How to Detect Lies, Fraud and Identity Theft. She works with businesses, financial groups, and law enforcement to prevent fraud, protect profits, and make better decisions under pressure. In this episode, Traci shares practical strategies to read people more accurately, ask better questions, and spot deception before it costs you. You’ll learn: Why detecting deception is a leadership skill—and how to sharpen it The body language differences between big and small lies How lie detection can accelerate business results and reduce losses Everyday signs of deception that are easy to miss—and how to catch them How to use body language to gain the truth from customers, coworkers, and clients Traci also discusses her new book and how her experience as a U.S. National Cycling Team member helped shape her ability to “read between the lines.” Whether you're hiring, selling, or simply trying to understand people better, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you lead and decide with clarity. 🔹HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE 🔹 Learn more about Traci Brown and her work🔹 Get your copy of How to Detect Lies, Fraud and Identity Theft🔹 Request a Free Mental Breakthrough Call with Dr. Cindra and/or her team🔹 Learn more about the Mentally Strong Institute Love the show? Rate and review the podcast—and you might hear your name on the next episode!  

Welcome to the High Performance Mindset podcast, where we help you master your mindset to gain the high performance edge. My name is Dr. Syndra Kamboff, and I am so grateful you are here to listen to episode 696 with Tracy Brown. In this fascinating and high energy episode, I interview Tracy Brown, ranked the number three body language expert in the world, and a go-to voice on lie detection, deception, and influence. A former elite cyclist turned deception detection expert,

Tracy brings a rare combination of athletic discipline and forensic insight to her work. Tracy is a frequent television guest featured on CBS, NBC, and Nancy Grace, and is the author of How to Detect Lies, Fraud, and Identity Theft. She works with businesses, financial groups, and law enforcement to prevent fraud, protect profits, and make better decisions under pressure.

In this episode, Tracy shares practical strategies to read people more accurately, ask better questions, and spot deception before it costs you. You'll learn why detecting deception is a leadership skill and how to sharpen it, the body language differences between big and small lies, how lie detection can accelerate business results and reduce losses, everyday signs of deception that are easy to miss and how to catch them. How to use body language to gain the truth

from customers, coworkers, and clients. Tracy also discusses her new book and how her experience as a U.S. National Cycling Team member helped shape her ability to read between the lines. Also, do you love the show? Please leave a rating interview and you might hear your name on the next episode. All right, let's jump into my interview with Tracy Brown. Thank you so much for joining us today on the High Performance Mindset Podcast. Tracy Brown,

CSP, thank you so much for joining us here today. I can't wait for our conversation. I am thrilled to be here. I love it. I got to hear you speak last year on the main stage at the National Speakers Association, which is such a big deal to get invited to the main stage and you crushed it. So thank you so much for joining us. I want to start actually, Tracy, with the question about why should people listen today. So today we're going to be talking about body language and lying and how might you be able to tell if someone is stressed or lying.

Why should people care about our topic today? Well, because people's pants are on fire around you all the time and you haven't even noticed. And we're not talking about creating all of these gotcha moments. What we need is to best inform our most critical decisions We're not talking about creating all of these gotcha moments. What we need is to best inform our most critical decisions because right now we are all saddled with the same problem and that is economic uncertainty.

People want to know that they have money coming in. They may when their back is against the wall, like it is right now for a lot of folks in a lot of different industries, like with tariffs and like, we just don't know what's going to happen next. Um, those, in those moments when we're, when we're feeling stressed like that, we're more apt to stretch the truth or lie. apt to stretch the truth or lie. And it is important to know some of those signs so you can have a more, so you can bring a more truthful conversation to the forefront more quickly before it costs

you a lot of money. Cause let's face it, when the first shot at things fails, it's expensive. And the second time around, it can be crushing. So we have to operate based on the truth. And tell us why people stretch the truth or lie. Well, it's about maybe protecting yourself, right? Whether it's your reputation or your business or your finances.

And there's, when things are on the line, it's easy to justify. Sure. It's easier to justify stretching the truth. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about the ways I've seen people stretch the truth. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about the ways I've seen people stretch the truth, maybe it's in business or it's my kids.

They're like, no, I was really home at 1130 when it was really midnight, 13th-Nill Jersey and all. And it's like, well, the evidence doesn't suggest you're home at that time. Or the camp suggests something different. Exactly, exactly. Well, I think your back road is so fascinating, Tracy. So I'd love for you to tell us, I know you used to be a professional athlete, so I'm curious about how did you then become somebody who is a body language expert, who speaks

on the topic, who goes to court, and does all the things related to body language. Yeah. So body language is how I started winning bike races because I realized really young because, okay, so I grew up in Dallas and that's where I started riding and racing. And there was this fella on my team who was really fast. His name was Lance. Okay.

Not Lance Armstrong. Yes, Lance Armstrong. Oh, there you go. team who was really fast, his name was Lance. Okay. Not Lance Armstrong. Yes, Lance Armstrong. And we'd go on these group rides and he'd show up and him and his buddies were lightning fast and I had to figure out how to keep up. And I learned that I could predict what was going to happen next and that everybody had their own personal unique tells. And when I get a read on them, I could get a half a pedal stroke jump on what was going to happen. So I wouldn't get left behind because the problem is in saying it's not like with all due respect to other sports,

it is not the same as soccer. Like if you suck at soccer, you know, you get to, you get a nice bench, you get to sit on, it is fantastic and you get to watch the game, it's probably a little bit entertaining, you're probably bombed around the bench, but overall it's not that bad of an experience. And you aren't any good at, at bike racing. They leave you, they leave you behind and you've got to find your way home. And you're out in the wind and it's cold maybe, or maybe it's hot and there's no

support, there's no one to give you water. It is brutal. And so I, having experienced that a few times, didn't want any more of it. And so I had to figure out some ways to keep up, to really make up for my height. Because cycling is for like elf-sized people. And I'm 5'9". And so you have the strength to weight ratio just naturally, just working against you. And so I had to find some ways to keep up.

And so I got good at watching and reading people. So it wasn't just like, oh, there's a hill coming up. It's like, oh, there's a hill coming up and this guy is about to do this or this girl's about to do this. And so I kept really good track and that's how I began to keep up and eventually win. Now sports-

Amazing. Yeah, well, it was cool, right? It was cool. And I didn't know that I was doing that. I just kind of naturally did it. It wasn't pointed out to me until a long time later, like when I was talking to someone who didn't know anything about bike racing.

And so, the, And so, like I wanted to race in the Olympics and I was not good enough. But like bottom line, I did ride for Team USA. I did not make the Olympic squad. But I did everything that I could. And that led me to, you know, sports psychology, which I know is your zone, but you know, it didn't give me the pop that I thought was possible.

And so I found hypnosis in neuro linguistics and man, that stuff worked great, like a charm. And I ended up getting trained in that. And I saw clients for a lot of years, a lot, a lot of years, a lot of sports, a lot of athletes, just because of my background, but a lot of just anybody who like fears, phobias, anxiety, depression, chronic pain. Like I have heard it. I have heard it all. And I think we'll get to the other side of it.

You got to watch your clients in that kind of more relaxed state so you can lead them through to the other side of things. So I was able to apply those same skills of watching the little nuances of their behavior to understand what was likely going on in their mind. And over time, people started asking me to speak and they wanted me to speak on body language. Like I didn't know it was a thing anybody would care about. And then the news started calling me to talk to them about crimes. And it's just kind of, it's just like then one step after the other, you know, I've ended up training with, with law enforcement, like police, like I'm sitting next to green berets and in trainings and, and, um, and, and so it's

all been this process of just refining my skills and, and also like finding the highest use for, for my skills. Cause now, now what I do is a big, do is big banks and financial groups call me so that I can help their people prevent fraud loss. Yeah, amazing. Fraud is born of lies. If you can spot those, you can ask the right questions so that, again, you can bring a truthful discussion to the forefront when you need to have it.

Because there can be a lot of zeros in some of these cases. And so that's what I do is help people stay ahead of that. Amazing. Very cool how it just grew from your interests and your passions and also listening to what people want. I think my career has grown in that way too.

What are the things I love? What are the things I'm interested in? But then what do people need? And that's what I just heard in your story. I got to go back though to training with Lance Armstrong. What was that like? And give us an example of how you used to watch people's body language. What did you notice to help you? What was that like? And give us an example of how you used to watch people's body language. Like, what did you notice to help you?

What was that like? Okay, so, um, you know, Lance is Lance and he's, he's, uh, back in the day, he just wasn't the nicest guy. So it was like, yay, I'm going to go see Lance. So it was like, yay, I'm going to go see Lance. And he'll admit that too. That's not, he was one of those guys. He was one of those guys that you just have this feeling. Like we all have these people in our lives, right? Like, you know they're up to something and you know it's no but you don't know what it is.

He's that guy in my life. And, and, and I just thought I had a hunch. Uh, and I almost had a hunch. Uh, it, it, and it, you know, it's been revealed all these years later and looking back, you know, the signs were all there, you know, he's, he's the biggest fraud in all sports, the stripped to seven Tour de France titles, that's a bigger deal than being stripped of seven Superbowls. Like on the world scale. Right.

And so, um, so I owe him a little bit of thanks for becoming a body language expert, you know, and, and habits of experience really young with fraud. So, you know, we'd, we'd show up to the training rides at the bike mart and it's out in Richardson and or the training races on Tuesday nights out there. And I mean, the guy's fast and he is like to his credit. Yeah, absolutely. You cannot sit around and you know this you can't sit around on your couch and do whatever you're going to do and have the results that he got.

Like, I mean, it's like credit to him for precise execution of training, diet, sleep, and then of course, you know, supplements to all of that. You know, they give you what, one or 2%? Right. But when everything's on the right line, that's what you need. Yeah. And we know the one or 2% separates the winner from, you know, second place or sometimes 10th place.

20th, yeah. Oh yeah. Sometimes 20th. What did you notice at the time? Like you can kind of get this instinct or this gut that like, okay, he's not, there's something going on. If you could look back and say, what was his body language like that,

if you knew what you knew now, how would you analyze his body language back then? Almost like a shield around him. Does that make sense? Sure. It's hard to put words on, but there was only certain people going to get through to talk to him. And arrogance.

And granted, he is fast. Right. He has and still does have. He'll talk about it on his podcast His podcast is fantastic with the tour de France every day with George Hincapie but You know an air of I don't know for this arrogance or it was it was like a shield There was like a yeah field around him. So the emotion emotional

Yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I can go on for a long time about it. I read his book, the first one, It's Not About the Bike. For the first quarter of the book, I was there for a lot of it. And I was like, huh, I don't remember it that way. So everyone has their own. Perception. They hate themselves in the best light. I would do that as well, you know, but it's kind of interesting how like perception is like really different from like for everybody that was in the

area at the time. Well, fascinating. So when we think about how you work with businesses and how you help businesses protect against fraud, we all know just kind of what you said about the uncertainty of today. How can lie detection accelerate business results and what can leaders specifically do to help really detect lies? Got it. Okay.

Okay. The area that you're gonna look at, like the number one area, the one for everyone is hiring. And this is from a SHRM study, Society of Human Resources Management. 40% of people lie in a material way on their resume or in a job interview. Wow. And that same study proved that 2% of HR pros can pick it out.

Okay. Wow. So let's talk about CEO level. A bad hire, how many millions is that going to cost you? Not only in stuff, they have bad decisions, right? And it just cascades down, right? So being able to pick out, and here's the thing. There's no one sign that's going to say, yep, you're a lion. There's just not, right? So being able to pick out, and here's the thing. There's no one sign that's gonna say, yep, you're a lion. There's just not, okay?

What it is, is telling you, here are signs of discomfort, here are signs of stress. Now, why would someone be stressed if you ask them about their past, right? Maybe there's something they're covering up. So what it does. Sure. Tells you, again, it's not gotcha moments, but it tells you, okay, I need to ask some more questions because there's something not right.

Okay. And you want to get those before you make your final decision. Nice. So give us some examples. And one of the things I loved about your book is that you had these images and then it said, hey, this is what it means. And I was like, oh, cool. I could use this as a playbook as I'm watching people.

And I thought I loved that part, that it was really clear on, hey, this is what this, putting your hand in front of your mouth, this is what that means. So give us some examples of things we should be paying attention to during the hiring process or the application process when someone is asking us for a loan. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So let's go deeper. Okay. So it's hiring, it's vendor selection, it's anything with your team. Is your CFO telling you the right information about the state of the company, right? So you as a CEO can make decisions.

It's in sales where I just got back, I was in Dallas last week and I worked with a financial planner who their job is to get more clients in. Yeah, it's true. So some trouble like why are people always saying, I'll think about it. Right. It's sort of a lie to take that apart. But why are people saying no to you? Are they being truthful about their real needs?

Okay. So all of these things are wrapped in. Okay. And the signs are going gonna be similar for everyone. So if someone covers their mouth before they answer a question, right? Or while they're talking, and they could cover it with one finger,

they could cover it like with their full hand. Typically that means they're holding something back. They're holding back information or they're holding back emotion. And that's important because what happens is we all get on our scripts, especially salespeople. You know, they'll get on a script and, you know, to a certain extent, you know, me and you could be guilty of that in our keynotes too, right? Because we said something a thousand times and it works good. And, and sure. It can get hard to see what's really around you. Yeah.

Respond individually to the signs that you're seeing. Right. Now let's say most salespeople will go in, you might as well bring a tape recorder in and press play and then leave. Like for, for real, right? Because they're so on their script and they're not responding necessarily in time to what they're seeing of concerns from their potential customer. And so when you see someone cover their mouth or maybe they roll their

lips in over their teeth, there's a saying called, when lips disappear, trouble is near. Okay. So you got to stop and you got to get off your script and you got to say, huh. And this, and this is a good one because you want to ask open any questions. Cause your goal is the same in any investigation, right? Your goal as a business person, as a salesperson, as a CEO, is to increase information recovery. That's what you're trying to do. And so if you say, seems

like there's a reason you're saying that. And all of a sudden you'd have some empathy, you've shown that you're in tune with their needs. Because people do buy products, but they really buy a person, right? And they're perceived trust in you, right? And so if you let them talk, and if you prime a conversation based on something you just saw from them, then all of a sudden you're going to get some real answers. And they're going to tell you exactly what you need to do to get their business, right? So perfect example. Oh, I sat in several financial planner, uh, sales pitch meetings, uh, last week.

And one woman came in and she, I don't want to get this right. Cause you know, what they want to do is take over her whole portfolio. Okay. And that could be the dollars under managed. Sure. Yeah. And, uh, she said that her son was in finance, living over in Fort Worth, and wouldn't help her with hers.

And she almost came to tears in that. It was so emotional with her. And the financial guy that I was with, he did not capitalize on that and use it in saying, we're the ones you can trust, don't worry, we gotcha. I get that this is a as like upsetting situation for you, you're in the right place. Like he missed it and I'm sitting there

and I can't be like, like, I'm gonna be one of the children. I'm like, oh my gosh, you just missed it because I talked to him later and he's so on his script, they couldn't get off it, right? So what we're working on is flexibility in behaviors so that you can respond to what you see and use that so you can fill their deep unconscious needs. Nice, excellent.

There's a few other images that you had in your book and then what it means. So what does it mean when people scratch their face or hide their hands underneath a table or maybe in their pockets? I'm also thinking about, oh, the dupper's delight. I wondered what that meant. Dupper, okay, I knew I said that wrong.

Okay, so you talked about hands. When people are showing you their hands, and because you got to kind of look for how people normally behave, right? Are they illustrating a lot with, with their hands? Maybe they're more still. Okay. And some of that can be cultural, but it's individual for each, each person. If all of a sudden their hands go away, right.

And they go under the table or maybe in their pockets, they may be hiding something. Like that's a significant behavior shift, a change in the way they communicate. So again, your job is, it depends how hard you want to go on. Like if it's one of your kids, you could be like every year husband, you know, like, what, hey, what are you hiding? I know you're hiding something. Watch this, tell me now. Right, exactly.

Don't wait for me to find out. Or you could be more subtle about it. That's OK. And then what else did you ask about? You did hands. Because there was like three questions right in there. I said, scratch their face. Scratch your face and then the duper's delight.

I think that's how you call it. Okay. See, I'm doing my hair and so this is called an adapter because my hair's not as full and luscious as I'd like it to be on your video right now. But see, that's a point of nervousness. So I'm doing it too. I'm not immune from any of this. Sure. Yeah. Whatever. Bad hair day. We're doing it in simple. Oh your hair looks great No judgment it just does right us and 2 million of your followers Okay, they're like they're gonna go to YouTube and then what check out the video

So they everybody go to see my hair and then go to my professional shot, and you'll see why Why my hair doesn't look that good. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Okay. Everybody is feverishly go-ish. Okay. But, so we have, have you heard of like the Pinocchio effect? Like Pinocchio, what happened?

His nose- We lied. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Remember, there's no one thing that tells lies, but he can't tell stress. We actually have little capillaries in our nose here, and they're actually right through our face, that when anxiety rises, blood pressure goes up, and so they itch. So that's like-

Oh, fascinating. People may not be that comfortable with it. When they're itching, like their nose or, okay. Now here's the deal, it's easy to rationalize this stuff away. Sure. When you do that, you give away your power. Bottom line, right?

And so the further up on your head where you scratch, the more stress there is, okay? So if I went, God, Syndra, I can't, you and I, really, what happened to me the other day, right? That's really stressful. That's like completely stressful. But I was like, man, the other day,

you know, as I scratched my chin, it didn't go like I thought, right? And so, like that's different, right? And you're receiving it different, and it's different, it's a different level for me. So the higher up on your face that you scratch, uh, can show more stress. So, um, and what was the other one that you asked? Oh, the duper's delight.

Oh, duper's delight. Okay. So that is when, so you got to ask yourself generally, how would someone behave in a certain situation? Oh, and you're going to love these. Okay. Cause I got two duper's delights. They're sports that you're going to love these. Okay. Cause I got two duperstilites. They're sports that you're going to love.

Number one. Okay. So duperstilite happens a smile during a situation or during a line of questioning. Okay. There's no reason you should be smiling. Okay. Got it. Okay.

And so number one, easy to find. And, and, um, if people reach out to me, I will send them this clip. Uh, Tonya Harding. Oh, clip. Uh, Tonya Harding. Oh, wow. I remember Tonya Harding. Yes. Yeah. So she's like, I have no idea what happened.

And she's just smiling. It was smart. I have no idea. Right. Right there on it was like on Good Morning America, right. Uh, number, uh, and to, for those of you who have forgotten about Tanya, let's remind you, she's the one who engineered, uh, the attack on Nancy Kerrigan. So figure skaters, figure skater.

What year was this? 19? Two? 94? Okay. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah.

And that's when I was on the national team. I'm kind of surprised I didn't bump into either one of those at the Olympic training center, but oh well. Then you could have said you met two of the biggest sports frauds. Oh yeah. Well, I'll tell you about another one in a minute too. Okay. But then we got to get to Tom Brady, who I have not met either. But he did Duper's Delight in his first press conference in, um, about the Fleet Gate, right? Oh, wow. Yeah.

And so, cause they asked him point blank, Al Sharpton, who, you know, he has his most issues, Al Sharpton said, are you a cheater? And he does a few things right away. As a director, he asks you a question. If you can get a director, he asks you a question. That's, that can be a lot easier to detect deception than in longer conversation. So first, what he does is you see Tommy's running in place. And that's because we don't have very good control over our feet. It's pretty far from our brain. They're way down there. And his unconscious mind is going, we got to leave.

This is dangerous. We got to get out of here. And, um, and so his feet kind of start running in place, right. And then he smiles really big, right. Because this is a threatening question. So why smile on such a threatening question? Right. And then he rolls his lips in.

Oh no. Over that. And, and he, and he said, I don't believe so. Right. That's four words in the studies out of the university of Texas say the more you talk in a situation like that, the more words you use, like liars do and say, no, so sorry, truthful people do and say the minimum to get their point across. So I would take Tom one word, maybe two of no or hell no.

That's it. Okay. End of sentence. Okay. It's all messed up and he kept going, right? Cause it all- I don't believe so. That's not very convincing.

I just know it. It's a lot of words and it says he's got some gray area in there. We- Oh boy. Then what happened after that? Well, he ended up with a suspension of what? Four or five games, $22 million in lawyer fees. Like if anybody wanted to flake gate, it's the lawyers. Like for, right?

So, but it showed like right there in the press conference. Right? So, okay. Another big sports thing I'm gonna tell you about, and I haven't told anybody about this in years, because I, like you, used to work with clients one-on-one and I had a lot of clients at the top levels of sport. And the Yankees called because Chuck Knobloch, he was second baseman, could not throw the ball first. Oh sure, like, yes, I know it's actually cheating me.

They think it's due to sex, right? Yeah. So they call us and the guy that called us. The yips. Yeah, the yips. Yeah, well he even broke someone's nose who was sitting by first base because the ball just got away from him. Which is terrible when you're making all that money, right? And what we do is pick up the ball and throw it first.

Like that's part of your job. So he calls us and Brian McNamee is the one who made the call. He is the one who engineered all the drugs for Roger Clements. And, and I watched all that and Bregan was another one who had that Lance Armstrong kind of veneer to him. Like, like there's something just don't touch what's going on here. And, and during that trial, cause I watched it, they talked all about that apartment at the long-term, uh, I don't know what residence in or, or whatever. I was in that apartment. Oh my gosh.

I was like, I should have looked around a little bit better because I knew that guy was neat. Yeah, I find my way into these- That's amazing. ... these sort of fraud situations, but they were long before I had this information. So I didn't dig in at the time, but looking back, I'm like, I was right there. Yeah, that's phenomenal. Well, I love these examples because everyone remembers hearing about them.

And I remember Dislakegate, you know, it's like, I don't remember all the details, but it's really cool how you can pick that out. Hi, this is Syndra Campoff and thanks for listening to the High Performance Mindset. Did you know that the ideas we share in the show are things we actually specialize in implementing? If you want to become mentally stronger, lead your team more effectively, and get to your goals quicker. Visit freementalbreakthroughcall.com to sign up for your free mental breakthrough call with one of our certified coaches. Again, that's freementalbreakthroughcall.com to sign up for your free call. Talk to you soon. I'm curious about as we're talking about this, one, I know you work with financial and insurance groups to help them really spot fraud, but how can we use this in our everyday I'm curious about as we're talking about this, one, I know you work with financial insurance

groups to help them really spot fraud, but how can we use this in our everyday life if it's with our family or again, hiring or what are the other ways that we could use this just to help us be better leaders? Okay. So here's the key. This is what I always tell people. And it is so simple. The most profound stuff I think in people. And it is so simple. Like the most profound

stuff I think in our world is very, very simple. And that is we got to pay attention. We pay so much attention to ourselves. We're just not paying attention to what goes on out there. People are screaming at you all the time, exactly how they're feeling, exactly what they're thinking, exactly what's going to happen next. And when you can get a handle on it, you can start to do and say the things that are going to resonate with them so that the worst of things doesn't happen. Or at a minimum, you can protect yourself because you know what's coming at you. And we all have the ability to do this and the problem is we rationalize it away.

Right? And we're like, oh, he didn't mean that. Well, you know what? Yes, he did. First time, you know, what did I say? First time is shame on them and next time is shame on you for not catching it. And so that is the best thing you can do is start to pay attention differently. And one of the easiest things to pay attention to, to see if someone is stressed. And there could be, okay, so any amount of, it doesn't matter what level of business

or life that you're in. It could be, if you're in a bank, should you like, is this person really going to use the loan money for what they say? Right? Cause here's her, what they're doing in Colorado now is, so you get, and I talked to the bankers, right? And you're talking about bank loans. You talk to the bankers and they get a 20 year old kid and his dad coming in,

and they're going to start up an auto body repair business in a certain neighborhood. And you know what they're really doing with the money is starting up a pot grow house. Oh my gosh. And so you need to know a few things about their real intent, right? Yes. It could be, you know, a farmer, pay back the loan. Is he really going to sell that trailer that he's... Uh-huh.

Um, and those are just a few factors. Like other factors in banking are things like what, you know, what did, are the dual controls being truly done? That means two people signing off on, on one procedure or is it just being rubber stamped? Like all these things. Cause what, what, what did happen to the stack of Bandit hundreds in the vault? Do you know? Right.

Like it would be handy to make sure that the controls are done. So you don't have to find out where the stack of Banded Hundreds went. And I'll tell you where it is. It's at the used car dealer down the street. And so, I mean, and that's like a, that's a real story from- That's wild. I also, thinking about this, I'm like, how often do people actually lie in one day or one week?

Do you have any data to say, you know, if it's a white lie or a big lie, like, how often are people actually lying? Well, it can be up to six. It depends what study you like. You know, you know how science is. And so they can say up to six times a day, you know, I mean, the biggest lie is things like, how are you doing today? You're like, fine. Right. I'm not really fine. You're not fine. Like that's the number one why. The other one, I read this study is what were you doing last night? You know, why did you get home at midnight?

You know, so. Exactly. Things like that. So, okay, what were we talking about? We were talking about the, I was talking about lies in banking. Oh, yeah. Lies in banking. Yeah. So, oh, I know. Blink rate. Look at people's blink rate. We almost, well, really, on a long

term basis, we have zero control over our blink rate. Okay. Okay. So if we're stressed, if we're stressed, we're going to flutter our eyes. Okay. And it gets irregular. So normal blink rate is about 17 to 22 per minute, regularly. Spaced. Okay. And it can go up to 160 at times when you're really stressed.

Wow. Now, if it goes really low, that means you have their attention. It can be threat or it can be interest. Okay. So if you just want to know how stressed people are, look at their blink rate. Right. And if you want a good example, look at Prince Harry. Okay.

Get any Prince Harry, look at his 60 minutes video. That's, that's one, or, or they're not, it's not as much in their six hour documentary where they, him and Megan, their six hour Hollywood worldwide documentary to tell people to leave them alone. There's much less threat in that, right? Because they produced it themselves. So much less threat in that, right? Because they produced it themselves. So anywhere where he's interviewed, where there can be some touchy questions, just look at his blink rate. And what he does is, blinky blank, pause, okay, totally. And he also likes to show contempt, which contempt is defined as moral superiority. And he does that with a crooked smile. So when we have asymmetrical on our face, left to right, especially on a smile, that says contempt.

Now contempt is just an emotional state. It doesn't tell you that someone's lying, but if they are, it can give you a justification for, oh, okay, they're trying to preserve their moral superiority, right, and tell their side of the story. And there's a lot of that with the Royals going on. They're not, they're not, like, I get why they're doing it. It's still a lie, right? But they're doing the best they can do under scrutiny that most of us would crumble under. So, um, Oh, absolutely. And when you, so when you watch Harry, I, like, I would love to be your brain watching people, you know, because I'm also paying attention to how I'm blinking and I'm not touching my

face as I'm talking to you, right? Trouble. Oh, Sandra, I'm trouble. Trouble was a capital T, but, um, I'm curious about, you know, when you watch Harry, what, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to me when I watch him? And it's kind of like what I said, I see a guy who has his point. And that's what he's gonna uphold, right? And he's got all this tradition.

You know, he stepped down from the royal family and they kind of kicked him out basically. He's one of the most prominent people in the world and there's a lot of crazies out there and I think he does probably need security. Absolutely. But I think there's other stuff that we're never going to know and they're doing their best to hold the line of what they need. Yeah, absolutely. Well, when I think about when I may be telling a white lie or not fully telling the truth

like to my husband, right? And I never do this. So I never do. Let me see your husband about. Should we talk about that right now? It's just like, I don't know. And I don't even know what to say, but like, it might be small things like, I don't know, did you get this at the grocery store and I forgot, you know, or something. But what I noticed is maybe I'm not really looking in their eyes, right?

And I'm just curious about, besides the flickering of the eyelashes, is there anything else you should pay attention to do with someone's eyes? There's all kinds of things with eye patterns. Okay. That is honestly, it's pretty hard to apply. It's misapplied frequently and takes a long time to talk about, cause people say, okay, if you look to the right when you're talking, that means one thing.

If you look to the left, no, you have to treat everyone as an individual. And they have their own baseline. It may line up with that eye pattern chart from NLP. It may not. I'll tell you who does line up with the eye pattern chart from NLP, and that's Aaron Rogers. I'll tell you who does line up with the eye-pattern chart from NLP and that's Aaron Rogers. And I'll tell you where you can see it because they asked him if he was vaccinated. So this is what? Five years ago. Right. I know I remember this. And he says, I've been immunized. Right. And he looks to his, as we look at it, he, he, his eyes dart to the,

to the left, right. Which means he's constructing information. So, and it's, it's fleeting. It's really fast. But if you look, it's like, that's what it looks like. And it's not going to look that way for, for everyone. Oh, so fun. It's so fun to think about all of these things that we see every day. And I'm curious, Tracy, do you see that this body language information, is it the same if it's like a big lie or a small tiny lie, like I did not get that at the grocery store?

Oh, like when my husband says he didn't get the pack of ice cream bars. And then he really ate them. I would see the trash downstairs. I'm like, you think I don't see the trash? It's him moving out married. I told him he had to break up with his hoodlum friends, Ronald and the king and Marie calendar. Oh my gosh, that's funny. Yeah, but I see the trash. I know what's going on.

He likes pot pies. I think pot pies are disgusting. Like I don't care who makes them down there and shoveling them in. I'm like, what are you doing? Anyway, okay. So that's like a small lie. And there's not really a lot of consequence, right?

There's no, right. So the signs are gonna be more faint. And the problem with body language is that it happens really quickly and it goes away really quickly. And so you need to be able to, you gotta spot this stuff really fast. And that's why a lot of times I really prefer, I love video replay because I can roll it back and forth

and I'm like, oh, here's this or here's that. You know, no one's infallible. I'm not like at all. But if I can get a video, I have a lot better time doing analysis. Absolutely, absolutely. So video your family. They answer questions. So video of your family. They answer questions.

So you can go out and get those cameras all around the house. Oh my gosh. You know, one of the things I loved about your book is that it was so hands on. So tell us how people can get a copy of your book, how to detect lies, fraud, and identity theft. Yes. So it's a field guide. And like you mentioned, it is short. It has a lot of pictures.

It is not an in-depth study. It is what you need to know. So keep it in your bag, in your briefcase, keep it at your desk. And you can just flip through it really quick and then go into a meeting, right? You can get it on Amazon. You can get it on my website.

My website is bodylanguagetrainer.com. And you can see I have online programs and all sorts of things on there. And so yeah, get yourself a copy. Like stay informed, why be in the dark? Why stay in the dark? There's no excuse. Like in the times we're living in right now

are too volatile to really be at risk. Absolutely. You don't know. You're just putting yourself, you're putting your name, you're putting your money at risk. So pay attention or pay with pain. Pay with pain. So bodylanguagetrainer.com. You can find more about Tracy speaking about her online courses,

her training, her consultations, and obviously the book there. How do you use what we've talked about today? Oh, gosh. Well, I told you I use it with my husband. He's a pretty easy target. Any time I'm in any kind of situation where it becomes important, I want to know if someone's stressed or truthful about what they're saying. It could be with a new vendor, because we talked about a vendor you've been using that I'm in. Yeah.

You bet it's in Cali, right? Yeah, over, sure. Yeah. Because you can really like put your money into somebody or something and it doesn't play out and that's incredibly frustrating. Yeah, yeah, for years. So, I mean, that's just one way,

but you know, here's the thing. And I'll tell you this story and then I'm sure you got to wrap. My husband was remodeling, we were remodeling our kitchen. It was been a few years ago and he was doing it all himself. All I had was a microwave and a hot plate. Right. And we had been working all day on this.

We go to the store, it's 8 PM at the store. Now my family is a little bit of a, and we had to find something to eat, something hot to eat. My husband's a lot like Sheldon Cooper on, uh, on this thing theory, right? And he, he's legitimately a rocket scientist. I did read that. Yeah. He's exactly who you want building your rocket, right?

And, but everything to him is a numbers game. It's a, it's a, it's a cost benefit benefit reward kind of numbers game in his mind. He thinks that he does not get enough reward from eating a rotisserie chicken at the store. He says too much work for the amount of meat you get off the bone. Okay. That's, that's what he thinks. But remember it's late. And we're, yeah.

Don't have a kitchen. Right. And you know, you walk by those, they smell good. And they smell so good. And we're over here. It's our Kroger over here. And I'm like, Matt, can we just get a rotisserie chicken?

And he looks at me and he shakes his head no. And he goes, yeah. Hey, I know you don't want this chicken. You need to get something in the store that's hot. You need to run yourself around here and pick us out something that we can eat, because I know you don't want the chicken. And you know what?

And he's staring at me in the middle of the store and I'm like, right now, I'm hungry, find it. And he found, and I have not seen this before and I have not seen it since, he found a turkey breast on the top shelf of that kiosk, that hot k pious thing. And that's what we got. Cause apparently turkey breast works for him, but the rotisserie.

It's much less work to take it off the bowl. Yeah, he was so happy. And cause like, guess what? In five years, I don't mean it coming back. Like, and then there was that time you made me eat that rotisserie chicken. You know, like, we don't need that. And so you can actually make someone's day better just by knowing if they're lying to you.

Oh my gosh. So fun. I love talking to you today. You're so hilarious and interesting, and your content's so interesting. Thank you so much for the amazing stories, but also really practical things that we can use. So Tracy Brown, CSP, I'll see you at Influence this summer.

Thank you so much for being here on the show. I can't wait to see it, thanks so much. Way to go for finishing another episode of The High Performance Mindset. I'm giving you a virtual fist pump. Holy cow, did that go by way too fast for anyone else? If you want more, remember to subscribe, and you can head over to Dr. Syndra for show notes and enjoy my exclusive community for high

performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week. So again you can head over to Dr.Syndra. That's drcindra.com. See you next week!