High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 700: The Creative’s Mind: Building Mental Toughness with Dr. Jim Afremow, High-Performance Consultant & Author

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Dr. Jim Afremow is a high-performance consultant and the author of The Creative’s Mind: How Exceptional Artists Think, Make and Perform, along with several bestselling books on sport psychology and leadership. He has trained athletes, teams, coaches, and professionals across achievement domains to perform under pressure and sustain success. In this special 700th episode, Jim shares how the same mental frameworks used by elite athletes apply to creative professionals. He explains how grit, identity, and deliberate mental training fuel both artistry and performance. In this episode, you will learn: The 5 C’s of Mental Toughness for Creatives—courage, confidence, commitment, composure, and concentration The Two Voices that guide performance: Protection vs. Greatness Why confidence is a decision and how to strengthen it daily Mental tools like the 2-Minute Drill to beat procrastination and the Blow Out the Junk technique to calm nerves Why identity before goals creates consistency and resilience under pressure Jim shows that creativity isn’t about waiting for inspiration. It’s about training your mind like an athlete to step up when it matters most. HIGH PERFORMANCE MINDSET SHOWNOTES FOR THIS EPISODE Learn more about Jim Afremow and his books Request a Free Mental Breakthrough Call with Dr. Cindra and/or her team Learn more about the Mentally Strong Institute

Welcome to the high-performance mindset podcast, or we help you master your mindset to gain the high-performance edge. My name is Dr. Sindra Campoff. Today is episode 700. How incredible. I am so grateful that you are here to celebrate with us. And for the 700th episode, I am so excited Dr. Jim Afromo is here with us today. I first interviewed Jim in 2020, and I am so happy he came back to talk about this new book, The Creatives Mind. how exceptional artists think, make, and perform. Dr. Jim Affirmot is a high-performance consultant and the author of several best-selling books on sport, psychology, and leadership. He provides mental skills training and leadership services

to athletes, teams, and coaches at all levels of sport, as well as to corporate athletes and professionals across all achievement domains. As you will see, this conversation is incredible. I took so many notes. In this episode, Jim and I talk about, the five Cs of mental toughness for creatives. Courage, confidence, commitment, composure, and concentration,

and how these mirror the mindset of elite athletes. The two voices, the voice of protection and the voice of greatness. Jim talks about how confidence is a decision. He shares mental tools you can use today, from the two-minute drill to overcome procrastination to the blow out the junk technique for confidence. nerves. Jim shares how creativity requires grit and dispels the myth that creatives rely solely on inspiration or talent. He also shares the importance of identity before goals. Instead of focusing

solely on achievements, Jim encourages you to first ask, who do I want to be under pressure? Because identity drives consistent high performance. All right, let's jump into my interview with Dr. Jim. You will love it. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. I have Jim Afromo in the house today. And Jim, you know, very rarely do people get to come back on the podcast. And this is your second time here. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for being on. Thanks, Sandra. Couldn't be happier to be here with you. Love what you're doing and looking forward to a fun chat. Absolutely. And what's awesome is I have all of Jim's books on my bookshelf. Okay. So if you're watching this on YouTube, You can see them all right here.

And look at this one, Jim, the champion's mind. I got some major, major notes here. Okay, so look, I liked this book a lot. I assigned it into our graduate classes in sports ecology, by the way. And then we have his first book, The Champions Mind. Second one, the Young Champion's Mind. And today we're going to focus on the Creatives Mind, how exceptional artists think, make, and perform.

So congratulations on your new release. Thanks so much. It's always like a different season working on a book. So I kind of finish that one. You always want to try to make it a championship season. And then, you know, like you do, it's kind of move on to the next season, the next book. So I'm thrilled that it's out in people's hands now. I love it. So, you know, you've obviously written just several influential books on mental performance, including the ones we've talked about like the champion's mind and now the creatives mind. So I'd love to start with just sharing, telling us a little bit, more about what inspired this new book and how is it different from your previous books? Yep. Well, the short answer is the creator's mind is the champion's mind for artists. So same mental game, different or reason. But the inspiration came from working with creatives who are elite performers in their own right. And, you know, I've worked with, I've been fortunate enough to work with directors, musicians, designers, writers, and who faced the same mental challenges as top athlete. And so, you know, as we know, it could be pressure,

it could be fear, it could be comparison, and burnout. So I wanted to bring performance psychology into the creative world to show that it's not just boards, but for anyone chasing greatness in their craft. And for the book, we interviewed 12 exceptional creators and broke down how they think, make, and perform, especially under pressure. And so it's filled with stories and mindset tools from real creators. We have Oscar-winning directors. We have Grammy-winning musicians and world-renowned visual artists. So it was really fun to talk shop with them, talk about the mental game and how they think about it.

That's awesome. And what I love about your books is they're very practical. and tool base. Obviously, you know, there's a foundation with your PhD in sport and performance psychology. Like, I know that they're legit, right? But you do such a good job of bringing examples and stories. When I like about this book is like the creative sparks that you wrote about. And I thought those were just great ways to help people reflect on how the tool really does apply to their life and to their work. So tell me what was a top lesson you learned for interviewing these 12 creatives?

Well, that, you know, a lot of them, to me, it's, it's, the book is about mental toughness for creatives. And to me, mental toughness is doing what your goals demand, not what your feelings prefer. And each of these creatos, you know, I would say are just exemplarily, you know, like just exemplify mental toughness, although they would never think of themselves in that, in those terms. So the mental toughness in the book, we talk about the five Cs of mental toughness for creatives. And so they all had to find a way to be courageous, you know, putting your stuff out there, you know, trying to be authentic in a world that wants everyone to kind of, you know, be the same. Confidence, you know, believing in yourself to an

unbelievable level, especially in, you know, when no one else believes in you, especially starting your career, concentration, composure, and commitment. And so all the athletes that I work with at the top have those characteristics. And same with the creatives as well. Yeah. But athletes are a little bit more, you know, sports psychology is more in vogue. Sports psychology is more, you know, available. And so creatives don't often think about, okay, I need to be mentally tough. But if you show up for an audition and there's, you know, one spot and 200 people, you know, that want the same position, you know, lots of luck if you're, if you don't have your A mental game that day. Absolutely. Yeah. And isn't that so true? And I think you're right that they might not see the

word mental toughness is important to them. But tell us more about why you chose these five Cs. of mental toughness? And you said confidence, commitment, concentration, composure. What was the fifth one I'm missing? Well, it all starts with courage. Courage. Yeah, it all starts with courage. And that's actually from Henry Matisse, a quote in the forward to the book. He has a great quote. He says that creativity takes courage. And think about, you know, there's nowhere to hide as a creative. You know, in sports, maybe we could hide underneath, you know, a helmet. But creatives, you know, they might have costumes and things like that. But it's really about self-expression. A lot of creativity is about, so, you know, think about how vulnerable you

have to be. And who wants to feel vulnerable? We want to feel, you know, we want to feel power. And so just shipping your stuff out there when, you know, it's not maybe perfect, you know, asking for someone to read the first draft of your book. Things like that take a lot of courage. And so, you know, courage to me is just doing whatever you need to do and doing it scared. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Doing whatever you need to do with doing it's scared.

And I think about that, well, you know, fear is not that, or it's not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something is more important than the fear, right? Yeah. How do you teach that? in your work with creatives or athletes to be courageous? Well, to me, the mental gain boils down to two voices that we hear. And there's the voice of protection and the voice of great. And the voice of protection is trying to actually help us.

It's based on social conditioning. It's based on, you know, ancient wire in our brain. And it's basically, you know, the operating principle, is stay safe, you know, stay safe. Well, don't take risk. And, but it's trying to help us in the wrong time, in the wrong arena. And, you know, it gets in, you know, that's how we get in our own way. So to me, is just being aware of that voice as something that's trying to help.

And there's actually advantages to that. You know, a little bit of doubt shows me that you have humility, you know. A little bit of fair shows me that you're taking this series, you know, a little bit of, you know, complacency at times, you know, shows that, you know, hey, rest is important as well as hard work. So understand that that voice of protection is there for a reason, but usually it's not as helpful as it thinks it is. So it's not necessarily fighting it or necessarily even trying to get rid of it. It's just being aware of it and just naming it. Oh, there's the voice of protection.

And I call it B1, voice one. And but then we have a choice. Once we're aware of it, once we label it, it takes a little bit of the power out of it. And then it's like, okay, you know, clearing that noise, what do I really, really want? You know, who am I? You know, what are my goals?

What are my dreams? You know, who do I want to be under those kind of question? That's your true self. That's your voice of rape. And so to me, it's being aware of the voice. voice of protection, the voice of safety, and then, but just not letting it take control of the wheel. So the voice of greatness needs to be behind the wheel. That's driving the, you know, the bus. And, you know, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations that get in the way. Those can be, you know,

we can think of those more as passenger. Nice. Nice. And I appreciated your definition of mental toughness is like what your goals demand, not what your feelings prefer. And I same, just unpack that a little bit because I think I know what you mean. Our feelings can like just come and go and we can act based on our feelings instead of really being in this, in greatness, driver's seat. Absolutely. Well, you know, again, it's just you, you know, Nick Sabin, the famous football coach said, You know, it's not human nature to go for, you know, great things. And so I would say that's our lowest gear. That's our default.

Is doing what our feelings prefer. It's easier in the home. Takes less energy, less thinking. You know, we stay in our comfort zone. But to step outside of that comfort zone, that's, you know, again, that's a courageous act. And that requires mental tough. Imagine showing up, again, showing up to an audition. 200 people auditioning for, you know, maybe one spot in the orchestra.

And so you better show up and do what needs to be done on demand, not whether you feel like doing it or not in the moment. You know, that's more the weather. You can't wait on a sunny day, you know, to be at your best. That's true. Recently, I worked with a ballet dancer who was really fascinating, just like listening to how that what you just said plays out for her where there might be, you know, 300 people at auditioning, you have to stand out. But then also like the critique that comes from that, you know, like for ballet, it's like all about perfection in your body.

And just like some of the things that she'd share with me that her directors or other people have said, you know, was heartbreaking. And then not to let that impact motivation or energy or performance the next time. you know, it takes a lot of mental strength, a lot of mental toughness. Absolutely. And it's basically the courage to show up because, again, you know, if you don't stand out, you're going to be left behind in any sort of creative endeavor. Especially, you know, I could see ballet as well, given that that's kind of a full-contact sport.

That's a very tough sport. It is. Your body. Yeah, your body, you know. Yeah. But to me, they're going to love me or they're going to hate me, but they're not going to forget. I think that's kind of the attitude that you need to bring. And that takes, you know, courage and calm. Yeah. Courage, confidence, commitment, composure, and concentration. Are there any of those that you'd like to expand on a little bit more on what they mean to you and how to develop it? Well, let's let's stick with confidence. So to me, confidence is everything.

Because if you don't believe in yourself, you're always going to find a way not to win. And so to me, I think we get mixed messages, you know, again, in terms of our social conditioning, you know, we're told a lot of times, be confident but not cocky. You know, don't get too big for your bridges. Yeah. You know, you're not ready for that yet. You need to have a lot of success before you can believe in yourself, things like that. So I think some of those messages tend to, they're well-intentioned, but they tend to hold us back. To me, you know, imagine, you know, imagine, you know, something that scares you, that would be amazing to do.

And again, that's where the courage comes in. But the confidence is giving yourself permission to go after big and better things all the time. And so to me, a lot of confidence boils down to permission. You know, we're waiting for permission for someone to say, yeah, go through. you know, see how great you can be, how far you can go, what you can make happen. And I think the creatives in this book, they didn't wait for that. In fact, they got a lot of people telling them, hey, you're not ready yet, or, you know, take the safe route instead of the, you know, the artistic route, you know, go into business or school instead of, you know, maybe really, you know,

go off on this creative journey right now in your life. And they felt like, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to. And so, but they gave themselves permission to have the confidence to really believe in that, you know what, I think I have something special inside of me. Let's bring it out. I love it. You know, Jim, I have a book coming out next year on confidence. I just signed with Simon & Schuster to publish it. So I'm pretty pumped about that. And there's one part in the book where I talk about the difference between like the confidence as a feeling versus confidence as like a decision and a skill and a belief. And sometimes I think what we can do is, this goes back to your definition of mental toughness. We let our feelings of maybe doubt or a lack of confidence get in the way of our belief in ourselves. I think if we're really pushing ourselves to try new things and get out there with courage and do something that you've never done before, right? We're going to be anxious. We're going to feel fear. And then not letting that impact your belief in yourself, right? So many times it's like we have to let those feelings of anxiety and fear.

not take them too seriously. It's all about our interpretation of them that makes the difference. Yeah, definitely helps to look at it more as excitement than anxiety. Yeah. But I think the real key is going back to the voice one versus voice two, where the voice one is understanding the fear, the doubts, the worries, the concerns. Again, is this part of you, and might not really a part of you, it's just a voice of, you know, safety protection, you know, are you sure you're ready?

That kind of stuff. And I think that once you realize that it doesn't mean that you don't have a good mental game or it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you, that really frees you up because I think most of us, if we feel anxious, we feel, you know, we have doubts before performance and everyone's saying, you know, like, oh, you're going to be fine, don't worry about it, but we still worry about it. I think we can feel guilt or shame, like, what's wrong with me? I know I can do this, but, you know, I still have these doubts or fears.

But if you realize it's just an ancient, you know, it's ancient wiring and early conditioning, then you could go, you know what, you know, take the passenger seat. I'm still driving. You know, that's where the mental toughness comes in. I'm going to still, you know, do what I need to do and do it like I'd love it, you know, regardless of how I'm feeling in the moment. So, you know, it takes awareness and understanding, but then the mental game skills and strategies to, you know, to really get to where we want.

go. So what do you think are the best ways to be able to be aware of our voice, one, of like, self-protection? And then what do you think we should do as a result? Like, if we hear that voice one more than we want, what's your suggestion that you might give to an athlete or an artist or creative? Well, I love it. We're getting into the nitty-gritty. I know. Let's do it. Okay, I love it. So So there's a thing. So if you catch yourself, you know, catch yourself feeling stress, feeling anxious, maybe unmotivated, feeling complacent after a big win. But, you know, it's time to not rest on your laurels. You know, I always like the saying that if you're resting on your laurels, they're on the wrong part of your body. You know, like that's funny. You know, champions are always looking to play a bigger and better game. And that's the fun, the journey, the discovery process. But to me, notice when you're in voice one. And it's pretty easy because, again, that's our default.

So our default is usually, I don't feel like doing this, or I'm stressed out, or, you know, I'm frustrated, kind of in a low mood, you know, low state of mind. And so immediately name it. So you go, oh, that's voice one. Or, you know, that could be the voice of complacency or the voice of safety. So once you, you know, again, once you name it, you can tame it. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Number two is I like to, you know, we always go back to the deep breath in sports psychology.

Yeah. Yeah. But I really like the idea of blow out the jump, blow out the B1 jump. Because it's kind of like you can feel it in your body and, you know, it's kind of like your head feels filled with too many thoughts. And so it's just forget the in breath. Just blow it out. blow out the, you know, and I like to have a little image with it, too, like it could be a little tornado representing the chaos inside or, you know, just whatever represents the stress or

whatever you're feeling. So blow it out. So I like blow out the junk is the, you know, kind of, so, you know, be aware of it, name it, blow out the junk. And then usually our body language needs to be, you know, our posture needs to be fixed or adjusted. So whenever I feel myself like, you know, rushing, you know, anxious, stress, this, that, the other thing, what I'll tend to do is notice, oh, my chin has dropped down or my shoulders are up, you know, or, you know, I'm speeding up everything. So to me, it's just, you know, train yourself to slow things down, lift your chin up, you know, maybe put a smile on your face, you know, walk a little bit stronger, stand a little bit taller. And so that's where I like how you start putting all

these great mental skills and strategies into a system where, again, then it's like B2, baby. You know, it's like, you know, you could head nod. You can. You know, that's when you're back in your in your highest gear. Now, part of B2 or, you know, the voice of greatness or your true self is who's your identity? Who do you want to be under pressure? How many of us, you know, really, you know, could answer that question on the spot, you know? And I think that most of us think, okay, who do you want to be but if you ask yourself who do I want to be under pressure

then your baseline for everything else will reach so to me it's just always asking under pressure who do I want to be I want to be the one that takes the shot no matter what you know or I want to be the one that you know I'm the type of athlete that

you know competes like crazy in the biggest games you know or I'm the creative that puts my stuff out there even if I don't feel ready because I'm going to decide that it's ready, you know, like. So to me, it's always about noticing when you're in voice one and getting back into voice two. I love it. I love those examples and I like to

blow it out, you know, because I just think about an athlete or a performer who might be really anxious right before. It's like blowing it out also just allows them to reduce their, that tension in their shoulders and just, just be present, you know. I like to use, there's a tool in my second book called Beyond Grit for Business, and I call it the truth meter. And it's just a series of three quick questions you ask yourself when that voice of your V1 voice comes in. And it's like, is that true? You know, is that serving me? And most people would say, no, it's not true. It's not serving me. It's just my protection, my fear, my anxiety. You know, so okay, then what could, what could you choose instead? And it's likely that we can always choose a different thought that's going to lead to, you know,

feelings of greatness and feelings that are going to really help us move forward? Well, those are such great questions because sometimes you might answer them differently. Why they get you back thinking, you know, back in terms of instead of necessarily being stuck in your thoughts or feelings, you know, it's a decision point. And it's sort of a moment. It's really empowering to realize, wait a minute, I don't have to think that or I don't have to think that or I don't to believe that. I don't have to give that thought a lot of airtime. I could, you know, think this dead. But it's really about who's driving the bus, you know, who's behind the wheel. You know, it's okay for those thoughts and feelings to be there again, as long as they're in the passenger

seat, you know, like, or sometimes in the back seat. And so you could still, you know, it's, some days you're going to be in the zone. Other days, you're, it's going to be loud in your head, you know, but there's always a way to get the job done. And again, that's what, to me, mental toughness is all about. I love it. I love it. Hi, this is Cindera Campoff and thanks for listening to the high performance mindset. Did you know that the ideas we share in the show are things we actually specialize in implementing? If you want to become mentally stronger, lead your team more effectively and get to your goals quicker. Visit free mental breakthrough call.com to sign up for your free mental breakthrough call with one of our certified coaches. Again, that's free mental

Breakthroughcall.com and sign up for your free call. Talk to you soon. So, you know, your book, this new one, focuses on exceptional artists and how they perform. I'm curious, like, what are some of the misconceptions maybe people have about creativity and mental performance in general? Yeah, it's such an important point. I think with a lot of creatives, the misconception, even amongst creatives, is that, you know, it's all about inspiration. You know, I just mean, to sit around until I'm inspired and, you know, or it's all about talent. You know, I'm either good at this, you know, I'm just musically, you know, gifted or, but, you know, it's really less about that and more about how do you get out of your own way and how do you tap into your best self so that

the creativity inside of you, that inner, there's already integrate. And so it's more about letting it out, and rather than whether you have it or. But letting it out takes work. And so, you know, it's showing up when you don't feel like it. It's putting yourself, you know, in uncomfortable situations often and on demand, you know. And to me, it's really about being proactive. You have to be a go-getter if you're in the creative arts. Because, again, it's not, you know, opportunity is not going to knock the door down and find you.

You need to knock the door down and find opportunity. So to me, I think it's that, you know, athletes are tough and, you know, creatives are soft. But to me, they're both tough. You have to be tough. You have to be mentally tough, emotionally resilient. You have to be anti-fragile. Otherwise, you're just going to get eaten up because it is a competitive. world out there and it's a global world there now. And so, you know, you have people like

when I worked for the San Francisco Giants, we had people from all over the world in the organization trying to make the big league, you know, from the Dominican Republic to Canada to South Korea to Cuba, Mexico. So you're competing with everyone in the world. And so competition is relentless. So any way you could get a competitive edge, you need to take advantage of that. And there's no better competitive edge than the mental game. I completely agree with that. I was listening to an interview with Nick Jonas, you know, the Jonas Brothers. And he was talking about things that get in his way of being at his best.

And he said like when you when you have tension at home or when you have tension in your personal life, it's really hard to be creative and a tap into that creativity, right? And excuse me, it made me think a lot about just like how that happens with. athletes too. So I'm curious, what do you see are the barriers to high performance with creatives? Yeah, well, one of the things that they, you know, taking a page from athletes is the importance of routines, rituals, habits, things like that. Athletes, you know, also are really good nowadays at recovery, regeneration, a lot reigniting. And traditionally, creatives haven't been. It's just work hard, work hard, work hard. But they also need to rest well. That's mandatory. So thinking like

an athlete, I think, is important for them. But it's the same thing. It's really hard to compartmentalize when, you know, let's say a lot of craters might work at home. And so, or they're away from home for long stretch. So to me, I think a big thing for creatives is really finding things that energize them and that they could tap into when they are on the road or when they don't have family and friends around because it can be a solo activity. We don't always have teammates in the creative arts, especially like, for example, writing a book. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was thinking about barriers, you know, sort of inner limits that I seek in the way of creative's performance. And also I was thinking about different ways that I'm a creative and an artist, right?

And it could be speaking, it could be writing a book or, you know, designing a new concept. But I was thinking about barriers like self-doubt, perfection, or like fear of judgment. And I'm curious about how you see those barriers get in the way of high performance for artists and how you might help them address those barriers. Yeah, I think what's really helpful is, number one, just being able to say them out loud. You know, once you say them out loud, they'd lose power. So a lot of times when I'm working with creative, and just, you know, tell me more about that, you know, what does that feel like, you know, where do you feel that inside. It helps me trying to understand them, helps them to understand themselves. And a lot of times

when I work with the client afterwards, they say, I don't know, I just feel lighter. I feel better. I don't know why. Sometimes they have some tools that they can put in their back pocket. But so I think number one is really normalizing what they're thinking, how they're feeling. Yeah. And a phrase that I like to use is, you know, wow, how a human of you. I love that. And of you to think that or to feel that or for that to have happened. And I think that that is really where it's just like, oh, that is human of me. Because I think that, you know, perfectionism is a big issue for any high performance. And so just realizing that, oh, how human of me to have some of those doubts or fears. You know,

You know, how human of me to, you know, ask myself, why me or, you know, do I belong at the top? But then again, it comes back to, okay, what are we going to, like your great questions. What are we going to do with those thoughts? Are they true? Are they accurate? Are they helpful? Do they help me reach my goals? You know, would I share those with someone that I loved and cared about?

You know, what I do? I think that's great advice for other people. But with those doubts, fears, and worries, you know, a great question. always ask yourself is, you know, what would I tell someone else in my shoes that I really, you know, wanted the best for them? And a lot of times we have our own advice. You know, we have good advice, in other words, but we don't take our own advice. And so when I said, you know, what would you say to a teammate that's dealing with, you know, or let's say, you know, another creative that's working on a similar project. And a lot of times it's, you know,

hey, you know, let's believe in yourself, take your time, you've got this, you know, whatever it is. It's a lot of encouragement. And, but yet for ourselves, it's, it's a lot of self-punishment. And, you know, no one ever really gets good at anything by constantly telling themselves they're bad at. You know, it's not so true. Yeah. I think, too, just artists and other creatives are just like athletes in that a lot of times they'll say, well, I'm just being hard on myself. And it's like, yeah, but not in a good way. You know, like being hard on yourself in a good way is, hey, you're 10 times better in that. Let's go.

Or, you know, next time do this, now you're, you know, now you're 10 times better. Let's go. You know, I suck. I'm terrible. Those kind of things. That's being hard on yourself in a bad way. and you know that it doesn't work for anyone else. So, you know, give yourself the same benefit of the doubt.

And, you know, it sounds corny, but you got to be your best, you know, not only your best friend of the world, but the one that would never leave you no matter what. Like, they're always there for you. And that's what we need to be to ourselves. You know, we're always hoping that someone else will help us with that. And that's, you know, we, that's definitely helpful. But that self-permission needs to come first, you know. Wow, so powerful. I love the, wow, how human of you. You know, it's a, because it just normalizes it. And it's, you know, we all have self-doubt. We all have, you know, negativity. And I used to think for sure when I was growing up, like when I was in high school and I was a competitive runner, I thought I was the only one that had that negativity, you know, and I wish that I could have understood at that point that, you know, this is actually just, um, because you're human. Jim, how do you, you

personally use that. Like, I'd love to hear, oh, you are your own best friend and you are never going to leave your side no matter what. What does the expert on this do? Well, this is what's fun is I get to use all this stuff. So it's a win-win for me. So I love all these tools, insights, strategies. I love learning from colleagues such as yourself. Because again, to me, life is one big psychology. And, you know, and so to me, we could all get better at, you know, confident. And so I love your idea for the book, you know, and I'm confident it's going to be a good book. But, you know, and I love how, you know, it takes confidence to write a book. No doubt. And I'm nervous about what everyone's going to be, you know, like in the future. I can be like, well, geez, you're not very

confident, Sandra. You better be because, you know, like you wrote the book on it. Well, that's the thing. So, you know, how human of you to have those thoughts. But then also, you know, one of the things to kind of normalize for me or for others, it's, you know, it's, hey, all you ever need is human performance. You don't need a superhuman performance. Now there's going to be time where you feel superhuman because, you know, you work hard and, you know, you become a master of your craft and you have your A game that day and, you know, all the stars aligned. You're going to be in a zone. You know, you're going to be in a flow state. But for most of it is just you need a human performance, not a super human performance.

And then that, you know, again, so I think those reminders help to free us up. I don't need to be anything extra or special. I just need to be more of myself. Now, one of the things that I think gets in the way, so to me it's less about being your best self and more about being your real self. Because to me, a lot of us think of, like, to me, your voice of greatness is your real self. the voice of, you know, fear, worry, anxiety, you know, all that kind of stuff, to me, again, is just ancient wiring and conditioning that you didn't pick, you know, it's not in line with

the identity that you want or the goals that you had. And so to me, that's your fake self. And so I think what holds us back is that we can get a little bit too, you know, I might say, you know, self-protective in the sense that, you know, can I really be great? And so again, it goes back to that self-permission. But to me, it's not about, you know, we've heard a million times, you know, fake it until you make it or, you know, but to me it's really stop faking it and make it.

You know what I mean? Like, that's the creative mind right there. That's the creative mind. The part of you that doesn't think you're good enough is the fate part. And so you're not lying to yourself by, you know, voice two or, you know, thinking like a champion. You're leaving yourself. That's the key here. I love it.

I love it. I love it. I love life is one big psychology test because isn't that so true? And when we keep mastering and being the master of our own self and our thoughts, I think that's obviously the way to get ahead and reach your goals even quicker. When you think about what you wrote in the creatives mind, Jim, I'm curious if they're like one or two mental skills or maybe some of the exercises that you think listeners would use today to either boost their creativity or their performance. What comes to mind? Yeah. Well, what's great about having 12 different creatives involved in the book is that they give some of their own favorite tips and strategies and exercises.

is, you know, morning routines, those kind of things. But to me, what's neat is having those available so you could just, you know, refer to because a lot of times, as you know, you might come across a quote that you read five years ago that you loved at the time, but you forgot it before. It could be a tool that you haven't been using that much. To me, I think, you know, a big one to overcome resistance

is just, you know, what I call the two-minute drill, you know, is just, you know, one, two, three, go. You don't have time to overthink or get your own. own way. It's just once you have that thought, oh, maybe I should start working on this project, that boom, two-minute drill, just get it started. And once you get it started, to me, it's all downhill from there. That's, I think, a big up misunderstanding that most of us have as performers is that, you know, we think motivation is going to come before, it usually comes during. And we forget the power of momentum. I mean, to me, to me,

my problem nowadays is not the starting, it's the stopping when I'm really on a roll and it's like, okay, you know, you need to shut it down for a little bit and go for a walk or, you know, you're going to hit a wall a little bit if you don't take a break. And so that's something that all creatives wrestle with because you could go, go, go and pull all nighters or work for hours and hours. And it's like, oh man, I didn't get a workout in or, you know, those kind of things. And so that's what creatives really have to stay on top of is, you know, when to switch gears. And so I would say two tips. One would be the two-minute drill.

Whenever you notice resistance. And to me, resistance is the passenger. Remember, it's not behind the wheel. That's the mental toughness. I don't want to do this. But you know what? I'm going to do what my goals demand. Nah.

And so then you just keep your feet moving. And then again, reinforce that with the identity. I'm the type of person that does the hard thing when they least feel like, you know, or I'm the type of creative that shows up, you know, even when no one's around, you know, like, you know. But, and then I think the second thing is, is once you get the momentum going, is know when to shut it down, when to give yourself a break, when to rest, recover, and regenerate. And the best way, I think, for creatives, is just go for a 10-minute walk. And so I call it, you know, movement is medicine.

And so you're going to feel better. You're going to think better. And a lot of times creatives will come back from that 10-minute, you know, and I call it like a clarity walk, clear your head, you know, or you could look at it as a gratitude walk. You know, like, hey, I get 10 minutes to myself right now just to enjoy being present. And, you know, not necessarily performing. You know, like, and so I think that that's really important is to make it a habit.

I appreciate that. What will I do? I will do what I need to do to my goals demand of me. And I'm going to use that in my own life because I feel like I have really high goals. And it's like I'm going to do what that demands today, regardless of how I feel, you know? Yeah. And then reinforce it. So after you do it, it's, hey, that was that that's what I do.

That's who I am. that that was like me to get it done. Now, what I tell, you know, I love Bob Rottella has a book, you know, The Game of Perfect. And he also has a book. A lot of people might not be familiar. He also has a great book called Life is not a Game of Perfect. And so, you know, what I recommend is that, you know, or a reminder that you're not

going to win every rep. So there's going to be times where Voice One wins. And again, that's where, hey, that wasn't me. That's, you know, that's not what I'm about. That's not who I am. let's get back to being, you know, the voice of greatness, you know, next rep, best realm. And so, you know, cut yourself a little bit of slack because creativity, just like sports, is definitely not a game of perfect. And as you know, excellence is messy. A lot of times

we always see the finished product, but it's a little messy in the middle. Well, looking back in your career, you've had so much success so far. And I just think about the impact that you've had on the field, which is tremendous. You know, so I think about your work in Arizona State with the giants and then these amazing books that you've written that are going to stay, you know, they're timeless, right? This is, obviously, these books are part of your legacy. And I'm just curious for you when you look back at your career and how successful it's been, what piece of advice would you give you younger self around mindset and performance that you wish you would have known? Oh, man, how fun would it have been to have all of these books available when we were athletes? I know.

And that's why I got interested in the field because I played all sports. And I love physical activity. My dad ran Master's Track. You know, we would, you know, family hikes and camping and, you know, soccer and golf and, you know, all these different sports. I love track and field. But I would ask questions. What do you do when you're never? So what do you do when, you know, you're kind of in a slump or what and no one ever could give me a great answer.

It's just kind of like, don't worry about it or don't talk about it. You know, so. Right. Or same about it or just, hey, you know, there's nothing you can do about. And but to me, the advice would be, I think, you know, to be honest, I think it would be about identity is, you know, identity before goals. So who do I want to be? Not what do I want to get? You know, like I think, you know, when we're on, it's like, I want to win a gold medal or I want to, you know, write a bestseller. It's like, no, I want to be the person that, um, that, um, that, um, you know, is a relentless competitor. Or I want to be a person that tries to champion every day, you know, and, uh, you know, be grateful for every opportunity. To me, that, that's, That's where you start. Who do I want to be and then act from that versus what do I want to get and then hope I become someone I, you know, I'm proud of after the fact. So I like the idea

of when you're, you know, for to me, it'd be take pride in everything you do. When you're working out, make yourself proud. When you're studying for that test, make yourself proud. You know, be the person that makes himself proud each day. Because I think, you know, that helps you pass the pillow test every night, you know, when your head hits the pillow. Like, I'm, I'm glad I did or I wish I had. You know, usually we have one of those two thoughts. I'm glad I went after it today or I wish I had gone. I love that identity before goals. Because a couple of things, I think it's like your identity does wish you towards those goals that you want. But I think a goal can be so like outcome-driven and it can be, people can feel like they failed if they didn't reach their goal. And sometimes

our goals are things we can't completely control, you know? So I love that identity piece, very grounded versus outcome focused. Well, and here's a perfect example of that. So there's a video going around of Rinalda, the amazing Cristiano Rinaldo, the amazing Portuguese soccer player. And it's him, it's a close-up of his face before he takes a penalty in a game. And he's talking to himself. So I love the self-talk. But he's saying, you know, like visualize it going through, just under the bar, all that kind of stuff. But here's where the identity art is so key. He says, this is normal for you. Make it like you always. That identity. So you notice he's not there in his head and just, you know, and just, you know, seeing the ball go through. That's part of it.

But it's this is what you're built. This is who you are. This is normal for you. This is what you do. So to me, we don't fall back on our training. You know, we fall back in our identity. Wow. We fall back on our identity, not our training. And that relates to most of us have heard the saying, you can't outperform your self-image. And so the identity part to me is related to the self-image.

You have to see yourself as a champion. That's why it was called, you know, that's why my first book was called, you know, is called the champion's mind. It's, you know, see yourself as a champion. And then what would a champion do? How would they breathe? How would they think? How would they behave? You know, and then anything is like you're saying, those are things that we can control. I could control what I say to myself. I can control, you know, what identity I decide that I want. You know, I could be, I want to, you know, I see myself as, as an athlete that always plays bold, you know,

or boldly, you know, I can decide that. And so to me, it's fun deciding, you know, we get to design our own life. And so I go, you know, it's kind of like self-authorship. Be your own best writer for your life. Amazing, Jim. There's so many things that you share with us that are incredible. that if you just listen to one or two of these tidbits and implement it into your life, it would make all the difference. Incredible. I have a couple of fun questions to close. All right. So here we go. This is to get to know you, Jim. What is your go-to high-performance quote or maybe a power phrase that inspires you? Well, so the athletes and other performers,

you know, creatives, students, and professionals, business professionals that I work with, they really inspire me. And that's where I came up with think gold and never settle for silver for my first life, the champion's mind. And, you know, it's just a reminder. It's not about the metal. It's about the mindset. And I think that our, you know, voice of protection, that's settling for silver, you know,

good enough or why, you know, it's not the right time. or I don't feel like doing it. That's thinking silver. It's not thinking gold. And so to me, why not live a gold medal? Why not be the best version of your best self? Why not be your true self? And that's, again, the greatest mind is being 100% you.

So it's being 100% Cindra. It's being 100% gym. To me, that's a gold medal life. And really enjoying the journey. If you're not enjoying the journey, you're probably not going to enjoy the death. destination, right? So Joy is the GPS. I like to tell performers of any age and any craft that if you're not enjoying yourself at least some of the time or most of the time like a kid, you know, in a

playground, you know, or a candy store, you're probably not on the right track. But if you're enjoying yourself, you know, I can't wait, you know, wait to learn something new today, you know, like then you're going to always be that in a candy store. And then the result, are just the jury on top. Awesome. What's the book? It's who you become. It's who you become,

not just what you get. Absolutely. So what book outside of your own has influenced you the most around performance? I have to go with the OG sports psychology book, which is the Intergame of Tennis by Tim Galway. And what's amazing about that book,

it's really a paradigm shift. In the early 70s, when Tim wrote the book, it was all about, you know, coaching was all about technique and strategy. And he started thinking, watching players, wait a minute, what if your biggest opponent is in, you know, in your own head, not across the net? And so the greatness, again, is already inside of you.

You don't need more potential. you need less interference from yourself. Oh, yeah. And I think that's just such a game changer that your performance equals your potential minus that interference. And so I think it's just a really cool model for how to get out of your own way. And I think that's revolutionized, you know, not only coaching, but just all performance. where we realize, you know, I think every performer could identify with that, yeah, sometimes I get my own way.

That's usually voice number one. But to me, what a great book and really got things going. And I don't know if we would have had Ken Revisor or Bob Rottello or some of these other OGs without that book and without Tim Galloway's work. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. And if you haven't read the inner game of tennis, you should, even if you're not a tennis player. because it is incredible. So, Jim, if you could have dinner with any performer,

let's say an athlete or an artist or creative, asked a present, who would it be and why? Well, can I think, I'm going to pick an athlete and a freedom. So the athlete, I think, would be fun. I'm kind of cheating here, I guess, but it would be Tiger Woods at the Masters champion dinner, even though they wouldn't let me in.

but maybe as a guest speaker or something, you and I could go together. Okay. But would that be fun just to be in a room, you know, no cameras, no press, just in a room with all the master's champions, you know, be a guest of Tiger. And really, you know, just eat the, you know, pimento cheese sandwiches and drink the sweet tea and just hear the stories about, you know, about, you know, when they felt like, you know, they didn't have it or, you know, maybe the stuff they haven't shared, you know, publicly. But just really a deep dive into the mental game was with these legends that have been there, you know, that have maybe, you know, obviously have won the green jacket and earned every threat of it.

Or that maybe, you know, there's times where they didn't come through and could have won a few more. But that would be, that would be a lot of fun being in that room and, you know, maybe getting to play the course earlier that day. I love that. In terms of creative, I think Prince would be fantastic because- Oh, amazing. Well, just think about what, you know, he exemplifies the, you know, think about the courage. He didn't, you know, I mean, he basically was an end of one in terms of, you know, very unique. No one like him. You know, he created, you know, different styles. And he was always reinventing himself.

And that's what I see with the best creatives and the best athletes. They're always, you know, recreating themselves, always, you know, trying to find, you know, a higher gear, so to speak, in their game. I think he would be fun, you know, just his performances, you know, at the Super Bowl when it was raining and he said, make it rain harder, you know, if we can, you know, and just what a great mentally tough athlete, uh, mindset at a Super Bowl from a performing artist. So, uh, I think he would be a lot of fun. How about Tom Brady too? That would be fun. Amazing. Thinking like Super Bowl, seven Super Bowl wins, you know, tell us a little bit more what it was like during those final drives that, you know, you took the team down and, you know, won the game last minute, yeah. And what were you thinking? How were you feeling? What was really going through your head? Was your mind empty? That's what I'd like to know. Yeah, the real nitty gritty at that, you know, like what was, you know, if we had a microphone in your head, what, you know, what would the transcript look like? Yeah, that's awesome. Oh my gosh, Jim, this is amazing. And I wrote on my notes today, you're interviewing an icon in sports psychology. And you just, you just delivered. It was amazing.

Tell us about how we can purchase your books, your new book, The Creatives Mind, how exceptional athletes think, make, and perform. And then your other two books, The Young Champion's Mind and the Champions Mind. Well, so my website is Dr. Jimapromo.com. I'm on LinkedIn, Twitter at Gold Medal Mine. But the books are available wherever books are sold. And thank you so much for the opportunity to be with you today. I love what you're doing.

You're a powerhouse in our field. And thank you for spreading the good word. Um, uh, sports psychology and performance psychology to me are not niceties. They're, they're, uh, they're, uh, they're necessary, uh, especially given how Allen Jean, um, everything is these days. Um, you know, we all need to think creative, you know, creatively. We all need to think like champions. Um, and, you know, again, let's all be gold medal versions of ourselves. You know, why settle for the silver when we can grab the gold. So I'm rooting for everyone out there and hope everyone accomplishes everything that they want. Amazing, Jim. Thank you so much for your wisdom and

your teachings today. I appreciate you and honor you. And I just thank you so for all you've done in our field to elevate it and your amazing books. So don't forget to check out Jim's books before you get off the podcast today. So thank you so much, Jim. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. you thank you appreciate you way to go for finishing another episode of the high performance mindset i'm giving you a virtual fist pump holy cow did that go by way too fast for anyone else if you want more remember to subscribe and you can head over to dr cindra for show notes and enjoy my exclusive community for high performers where you get access to videos about mindset each week so again you can add over to dr cindra that's d r cindra dot

See you next week.