High Performance Mindset | Learn from World-Class Leaders, Consultants, Athletes & Coaches about Mindset - 82: Mental Toughness in Collegiate Athletics with Dr. Dave Yukelson, Penn State Sport Psychologist

Episode Date: December 15, 2016

Dr. Dave Yukelson, the Sport Psychologist at Penn State for 28 years, discusses how mental toughness is not something we are born with. Instead, it is an inner drive that we learn. He describes that the best athletes are mentally tough and have an ability to have a growth mindset and stay composed in the game. To do this, Yuke talks about letting go of the “mental gu” and “flipping the channel.” He also discusses the skill of focus which includes being “right here, right now,” positivity, composure and a choice to be confident. Other topics he discusses includes trying too hard, focal points, and the importance of the breath in performance.

Welcome to High Performance Mindset with Dr. Sindra Kampoff. Do you want to reach your full potential, live a life of passion, go after your dreams? Each week we bring you strategies and interviews to help you ignite your mindset. Let's bring on Sindra. Welcome to the High Performance Mindset Podcast. This is your host, Sindra Kampoff, and thank you so much for joining me here today. I'm grateful that you're here, ready to listen to an interview with Dr. Dave Euclson. Well, I think that you're going to enjoy Euc's passion and energy and just his excitement for his work. Here's a few things that Yuke talks about in this interview.

And I'm calling him Yuke because that's his nickname. What most people in performance psychology world know him as. And Dave Yuckelson has actually been the sports psychologist at Penn State for 28 years. 28. So pretty impressive longevity at a school. And within this interview, he talks quite a bit about mental toughness and how it's not something that we're born with.

Instead, it's something that we learn and an inner drive that we learn. So we talk quite a bit about mental toughness in this interview and how the best athletes that he's been able to work with over the many years of being the sports psychologist there, they are mentally tough. And he describes that they have a growth mindset.

They stay composed in the game. And there's different concepts he talks about throughout this interview, which I think you'll like. He talks about how the best, even the best have what's called mental goo. And he talks about this is the curse of stinking thinking, but they do something about that mental goo. And he talks about this is the curse of stinking thinking, but they do something about that mental goo. They reframe the task to the task at hand and they work to be in the present. He also talks about the skill of focus and it's not quite what you think. He talks about four different components of focus. So that's something I would encourage you to listen for. And other topics we talk quite a bit about is what to do when athletes or performers in general try too hard. We talk about the importance of the breath in performance.

And probably my favorite quote in this interview is this. He says that sport is what you do, but not who you are. So I think you're going to like this interview with Dave Euclson. I would encourage you to head over to Twitter and I'd encourage you just to let Dave and I know what you liked about this interview, what stood out to you about this interview. We love just having a discussion on Twitter. So Dave's handle on Twitter is Dr. Euc, so that's D-R-Y-U-K-E. And mine is

at Mentally Underscore Strong. Again, thanks so much for tuning in each week. Really appreciate all of your comments and your emails. And if you have a chance, what would help us so much is if you went over to iTunes and rated the podcast, just wrote a comment there about what do you like about this podcast? And that would just help us reach more and more people each and every week. All right. So without further ado, let's bring on Dr. Dave Euclson. Dave, I'm so excited that you're here with us on the High Performance Mindset Podcast.

I'd like to first welcome you. Thank you, Cinder. Looking forward to our chat, as always. So, Dave, tell us a little bit about your passion and what exactly you do. You know, I have a passion for the field of sports psychology and the environment I work in. I've been a sports psychologist for 28 years, almost 29 years here at Penn State University. And my passion is just, it's the work, it's the relationships that get developed working with 18 to 24 year olds. I say that because some of our freshmen now are getting a little bit older as they're coming in. But, you know, the passion is kind of developing a relationship and collaborating together to be able to help our student athletes grow and be, you know, the best they can possibly

be in the classroom and the athletic field. And it's just fun to watch them personally and socially grow from, you know, freshman to senior. And then the coaches, too. You know, it's just, you know, we have some fantastic coaches, and they're recruiting great student-athletes here because of their philosophies and their overall development. So, you know, I'm passionate about, you know, the work I have an opportunity to do.

I call it the dance with our student athletes and coaches. I feel very fortunate. Well, tell us, I know you've been at Penn State for many years. So tell us, like, how you got there and what exactly you do there. Well, it was back in the mid-'80s, late-'80s. We had a fantastic football coach who I still believe is one of the greatest college coaches of all time. His name was Joe Paterno. And he had a vision.

And part of his vision, he called it the grand experiment. What a novel idea back in the-'80s, the importance of graduating student athletes. So that was so important, you know, that football is what you do. It doesn't define who you are, and you're here to get an education. But part of that was he realized that there was more pressure, more stress on student athletes than maybe coaches really realized. And this was back in the 80s. So mine was actually one of the first full-time positions

in an athletic department and was part of that vision to be integrated and actually housed in an academic support center who reports to undergraduate education to be there to help them navigate transitions and stressors and performance and, you know, help them grow and be the best that they can possibly be. So that's where it kind of like started from. And it was a good match for me too, because at the time, you know, I was trained as a research professor and, you know, I take a lot of theory into practice, but that practice better be relevant to the athletes and coaches you work with. So it's not psychobabble,

so to speak, but it was the right values. And I think that was something that attracted me to the job is just, you know, what Penn State stood for and continues to stand for. So it's about excellence, excellence in your life, really. So yeah, that's how I got here. Little California kid here in Northeast. But it's a little bit colder up there. Oh, we should bring my wife on this podcast. She'll let you know. But it's all good. It's all great, actually. Well, I'm just thinking about Penn State and how some of the world's best college athletes right there. What do you think separates those who really thrive in terms of they have the talent and they can put it together mentally? What do you think separates them mentally from those that maybe are less mentally strong?

Well, that's a tough question because I think mental toughness is a learned skill. I think you learn it and you develop it at the various levels that you're competing and performing at. And, you know, I think there's a certain inner drive. And you asked about what the passions are. I think, you know, that's one of the separators is the intrinsic drive to keep working and to keep getting better. I think having not only high standards of excellence, but, you know, that resilience to be able to stay on task, you know, because some of the work like with Duckworth, I really kind of like that we kind of separate grit and resilience and there's this sense of kind of working towards long-term goals and you know when you come from all everything in high school and all of a sudden you're in

a collegiate environment okay how do I develop myself to be the best at this level, at least best within yourself? And you go after with passion and perseverance after those long-term goals, but then the resilience is not everything's going to go the way that you want. So I think that's a psychological separator as well. It's the drive to be able to want to do well. It's the belief, the commitment, and then it's a coachability. And I don't care if it's a drive to be able to want to do well, it's the belief, the commitment, and then, you know, it's a coachability, and I don't care if it's a team sport or individual sport, because all individual sports are still team sports, at least at the collegiate level, because you're practicing together, you're training together, and, but I think it's part of the separator, is that there's

just this drive to want to do well and to grow this growth mindset of continuously learning from so many different people i think of a couple ice hockey athletes that i've had and you know it just you know how can i get better you know from a mental standpoint from a physical standpoint from an emotional standpoint it's not like they don't have the belief in themselves. They do. It's just, you know, how do I learn the composure skills? How do I learn the mental focusing skills? How do I learn to let go of mistakes? And I think this is the commonality, at least that I see. And it's not like everybody has this sense of kind of like intrinsic drive,

because everybody's got different motives, different strokes for different folks. You know, but I think those are the things, if I think of all the different sports and the 28 years, it goes flashing in my head, your question. You know, I think of LeVar Arrington. I think of John Amici. I think of Susan Robinson. I think of people, Mark Sohn, who was a four-time national champion on the pommel horse. That's the only event that he did. But he excelled at all those things.

Then I think of the coaches. You know, we've got wrestling coaches. You know, Kale Sanderson, to me, is just like an unbelievable person, an unbelievable athlete, and he's able to develop championships by just, you know, the philosophy being kind of spread out to the athletes, Russ Rose and Paterno and, you know, and there's other coaches that haven't won championships per se, but they still, you know, are in that same mold. So here's a long-winded response. And I'm sorry

for the podcast, but you know, there are coaches that have that. I think there are athletes that have that. It's a learned skill as well. And I think the coaches have a lot to do with it because they're planting the seeds or recruiting these athletes and they're molding them. And it's not always kind of like, you know, everything's really positive. You know, sometimes you got to get their attention. So we work to do the dance together. That's nice. That's nice. You know, I heard you just say a lot of different things in terms of what separates the best. I heard grit, inner drive, you know, intrinsic motivation.

I heard humility, growth mindset, belief, composure, letting go of mistakes, and that mental toughness is really a learned behavior. And coaches play a big role in that. How do you see the coaches there or other places help develop mental toughness in athletes? I'm not sure every coach believes that mental toughness is a learned skill. I think some have it inherently. Either have it or they don't. I'm not sure every coach believes that mental toughness is a learned skill. I think some that have it inherently either have it or they don't. You know, you try educating the coaches.

You know, look, this kid is maybe trying too hard, and he still really believes or she really believes in herself. But sometimes what coaches can observe is athletes getting in their own way, and they'll never be mentally tough, and that's not true. They're just kind of skills, and then there are other coaches. It's not like you're going to connect with 31 different coaching staffs, and everybody buys in. A lot of coaches can be set in their way. So, you know, with some of those, you just continue to build relationships and, you know, continue to try and help educate and collaborate. And, you know, you work like that. So I don't know if I answered your question completely,

but I think that's part of my response is, you know, some coaches, I don't think they either believe they have it or they don't have it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think I think that's accurate. And from my own experience as well, you know, I think we know that mental toughness is something that can be developed. And we've seen it. We've seen athletes do that. But I'm not sure all coaches believe that. Dave, when you think about the athletes at Penn State and other athletes that you've worked with, what do you see them struggle with? You know, what's one thing that, you know, that you see them just struggle with mentally?

The science of stinking thinking, Sindra. You know, sometimes they get caught up in this mental goo. And again, you know, a lot of them are high-achieving, perfectionists, driven to be the best. So when something doesn't go the way they want, they overthink, overanalyze, get on their own case, nothing's ever good enough, shut down, but they don't mean to shut down. And their mind gets cluttered with the uh-ohs and the worry.

And you've got to be able to teach them how to switch it, flip the channel. And this is one of the most difficult parts of mental toughness is reframing back into the task at hand right here, right now. And I'm giving a talk in a few hours to the Volleyball Coaching Association. That's going to be actually one of my main points to them is when you're in the moment, you just shanked three passes in a row and the coach is giving you body language like, what the heck? I'm ready to substitute you out. You've got about three or four seconds to gain composure, reframe like I can't pass at all

today, to take a breath, relax, see it on the platform, deliver. Not kind of like technical, but just having an image or a cue ahead of time that when kind of like things aren't working well, how do I get back on task? So I play and I make, you know, metaphors about stinking thinking and mental goo, but you work on teaching the athletes how to be able to take control of their self-talk, take control of their emotions. I remember a volleyball player years ago. I worked pretty closely with her.

She was a freshman. At the time, I had this mental training class for athletes. We worked a lot on just kind of like getting in her own way, worrying about what coaches think. I'll coach her too, just play her position the way she's capable of playing. Sure enough, came down to championship point, and there she was making the block to win. And just thinking, oh, God, this is good.

It's not like she's controlling herself, Todd, but she got out of her own way. So that's the number one thing I kind of think about is just how to work with athletes and in not just thinking positively, but really controlling their mind so they give themselves a chance to be mindful and step into the moment. And the way that you teach that, Dave, like basically what you said was, you know, if they only have three or four seconds, work to gain composure of their self-talk, stay in the present, maybe take a breath. What other things would you do in terms of helping athletes? Well, you know, I don't want to make it sound like, okay, you know, I'm flying in and here's the intervention. Go ahead and flush it and get to the next point.

You know, they're in the office and we're working on it and we're probing. And, you know, I need to learn interviewing skills, listening skills. Again, that first question about relationships is so important. So then when you can identify, you know, what are the situations you're playing well? Well, that's nice. They can report that. But, you know, when they really get in their own way, well, what are you actively doing to try and create a visualization or a scenario where you're taking control of your emotions? And you have to refine it because it's nice if it's just like the first time it hits. It's like fly fishing for a rainbow trout or something like that.

The first time, whoa, look at this. This is easy. No, it's not. You've got to work the river. And you just have to be there for them to help them kind of be in command and in control. So

it's teaching them how to take accountability over their mental game, how to work it, not allow the frustration or the contextual cues surrounding you to interfere with that confidence and belief. So then you watch them in competitions and you text them afterwards, you look pretty

good here or whatever it is. I don't know, you keep working to refine it so it becomes automatic and instinctive. And then they can incorporate that within three to four seconds. Yeah, nice. A lot of times, the similar thing, you know, we work a lot on individualized routines across different sports. And, you know, sometimes athletes come in, coaches come in, and, you know, don't mess with my athletes,

and you're going to get them overthinking, or they look at a routine as a superstition. And when really a good, solid routine that they take ownership over has kind of layers, like a lasagna. It's like beautiful layers to this lasagna with good mozzarella, and what do you put into that, whether you're a vegetarian or a meat lover. It's kind of like the skills you got to build on to help them understand that to really take control, if I have a good solid routine that works for me, then I can learn to be

able to be mindful and enter into the present moment and have skills to be able to maintain that consistency. I think sometimes if I delve a little bit in another way, you know, sometimes we don't do a good enough job educating coaches and athletes about really how the mental game is there to help them when things aren't going well. So I'm just thinking about the zone, you know, and everybody's like Tiger's going to go out and shoot a 64 yesterday. And, you know, his first day back and, you know, and you listen to him and,

Hey, I had some really good shots and, you know, Hey, but I'm back, you know, I'm good. Well, that's kind of where routines really can help have something to be comfortable with to step into the situation and adapt and adjust and to keep competing. Like our baseball team, as an example, and other teams too, win every pitch, win every at-bat, win every inning, win the game. But you've got a routine to be able to be that competitor that no matter what, you just fouled a pitch off, you're fouling a pitch off.

You know, you get three strikes before you're out, keep battling, and let the pitcher make a mistake, and all of a sudden, boom. So I know it sounds easy when I come up with these metaphors, but this stuff is not easy because you've got to keep working it and believing it and not get in your own way. I completely agree that it's like this constant commitment to the mental game and just making sure that you're using it, the skills that you have consistently. You know, Dave, you said something about like over trying and how you see your athletes do that sometimes. What do you what do you think that's about? And how might you address that from a mental standpoint? You ask good questions, Sandra. Thank you.

I'll try and keep it shorter. I think it's partly the way athletes are wired. You know, some are just kind of like high-attributing, high-strung. You know, that thing about different strokes for different folks. But you got to teach them what relaxation means to them. If that person is kind of highly strung, you know, then, hey, you use the breath, slow it down. For you and I, it might be kind of the exhalation of, you know, like a three. But if somebody is really highly wired and anxious, it may be like a seven for them. But how do they

regulate so that they're kind of like in their own way, channeling their focus back into the task at hand. So somewhere you need to know something about the person or the team that you're dealing with. And you kind of help them understand what I'm trying too hard. I'm tense. I'm frustrated because I'm not performing the way that I know I can and I'm losing my focus. And now you individualize it. And a colleague colleague a friend of mine rick mcguire has written a really good paper on the skill of focus and it's wonderful there because rick who's a master coach himself track and field for many years the university of missouri and and the sports psychologist work with usa track and field you know he's great within our field. Focus is much more than concentration.

It's not just, you know, this is what coaches want, focus. I want them to focus. Forget the cycle babble. I want them to focus. What do you mean, coach? You know, it means right here, right now. There's a time orientation. Right here, right now.

There is a positivity. You know, you need to stay positive in your actions and thoughts and emotions. So, you know, stay focused in the present. Stay focused on being positive. Gain your composure. That's a third component of focus is that, you know, every point. It's unlike the other competitions that try to get you out of whack. You know, you're pitching, you're hitting, you know, every point. It's not like the other competitions and try to get you out of whack. You know, you're pitching, you're hitting,

you're wrestling, you're with the Vikings in football. It's not like, oh, go ahead and run down the field. We want to stop you. We're going to knock the crap out of you too and get up and do it again. So composure, trying to stay positive, right here, right now. And then he also talks about the importance of choice.

You can choose to be confident in that situation, or you can choose to allow all the frustration to snowball and spiral right here in that moment. And the last part is focus on kind of what's the most important thing right here, right now. So if you're down in tennis, love three in terms of games, and you're starting to feel sorry for yourself because the opponent is dominating, you know, you've got a few seconds to choose. How am I going to fight back?

Maybe I need to change my strategy, make the adjustment. So that layers in the lasagna. When you talk about focus and you try educating about focus, well, there's multiple skills you can work on from a mental, emotional processing to help them get to the next play. So I think his stuff on focus is important to help what your question was. Somebody who's getting in their own way and want it so bad and trying so hard. Well, yeah, but you may be trying too hard. So a good friend of mine can revisit.

Give me 100% of the 70% because you're grinding right now, and you don't even know it. So give me 100% of what you got right now. If you've got tendonitis or you're giving in, you need to recognize and keep competing until the competition is over. And just spinning a little bit more, well, you know, what do you mean? You know, I just lost the first set 6-1 and I'm down 3-1 in the second set. Keep battling, you have a choice. You can cruise out of here at 6-1 again, where you might learn something about yourself

to keep battling and break the serve and, you know, maybe lose 6'4, but you haven't given in. And that's where I try and really work with a lot of athletes and teams on, this collective resolve. Don't give in, keep fighting, keep battling till the end. I wrote down five things that you were talking about related to focus and trying too hard. And I wrote down, you know, being here, right here, right now, having the positivity focus, composing yourself, making the choice to be confident, and then noticing what to focus on and what's important now. You know, Dave, we've talked about already so many things,

the first 20 minutes of the podcast, so many different mental training topics. We've talked about- We need a halftime break. I know, we might need. Here's a question I have for you. We've talked about so many different things. When you think about your work, maybe let's say individually with athletes or with teams,

what's the one thing that, what's one topic that you always cover? When you think about your work, maybe let's say individually with athletes or with teams, what's the one thing that, what's one topic that you always cover? I just think confidence and kind of what their goal and personal meaning is. What are some of the examples of personal meanings that the athletes tell you about? I'll give you a great example. I was sitting in the wrestling room last week just watching the practices, they're getting ready and I think about the culture of excellence

of what Coop Sanderson and his brother and other coaches that are part of the coaching staff and the culture that they've created. You can have 40 guys out there who are some of the best in the country coming to be part of the culture and learn to grow, but there's only 10 who are going to have the singlet on representing Penn State on that next competition. But you've got 30 others who, you know, every day

are pushing each other and pushing themselves to be the best they can be. And they're happy. They're happy because they walk in there and they know they're working on specific things. And the coaching staff makes them feel great about themselves. And there's just something special. I watch your podcast. I watch our football team right now. You know, it just there's such confidence in themselves.

And, you know, it just, it's kind of neat to be able to just see it kind of like oozing out. And they're relentless in their pursuit. And they make adjustments and they believe. But not everybody gets a chance to play. And I listened to Coach Franklin in a press conference just this week. You know, you always have to be careful at press conferences. But he's acknowledging the scout team and what the scout team has done weekend, day in, to prepare, to get ready for the various competitors

they have coming up. The podcast, we're getting ready to play Wisconsin, the Big Ten Championship. But by catching people doing things right and creating a culture, then the athletes, and both those teams are a lot of athletes, they all can't be the ones who are getting the notoriety, but behind the scenes, they have the respect of the team. And every one of them keep working to get better. It doesn't

mean that they're happy with their position, but they're part of something. They have a valued role and they have their own personal meaning that they carry over into lives. This is the beauty of the skills. It carries over with them into relationships and into life outside of sport after they're done. I don't know. I think that's what I see sometimes is this. I feel so good for the people who are just contributing to the Penn State brand. And it doesn't have to be Penn State.

It could be, you know, any school or any professional sport. Or here I go, Sandra, I apologize. It could be these little leaguers who are just learning how to play t-ball. And at six years old, you know, they're going to get Dairy Queen after their games. And they've got Dairy Queen on their shirts. And they're part of something. Meanwhile, they're out there picking dandelions. And they have no idea about catching balls or hitting balls.

But they're part of something. So I don't know. I reflect on some of the situations I observe. And I know that not everybody's happy, but there's a sense of in the culture, if it's created the right way, then people are part of something and they work towards something. And even adversity,

because you and I talked before the podcast about, you know, the, the effects that losing can have. Yeah. People invest all this energy and emotion and time going after something, but only one team is going to win a championship. That doesn't mean they're all kind of like failed in their pursuit.

Well, afterwards, when they're at the banquets, boy, you know, those four years at Penn State was fantastic. I didn't get any playing time, but later on I became a CEO of a major organization, but the lessons I learned from being an athlete for this particular program taught me skills that thrive in other kind of organizations. So there's my long-winded response. Kind of like examples of personal meaning people attach.

Sometimes the end result is later on down the road where they can really step out of a situation or somebody who's working in the fields, picking coffee and helping others be good. Yeah, absolutely. You know, Dave, earlier, you said something when we were talking about personal meaning, we were talking about how some, some athletes and high performers and high achievers might interpret the reasons that they were not successful in a way that might be devastating. And I'm thinking about how, as you're talking,

that thing connects to personal meaning, meaning it's a lot harder, I think, to keep your personal meaning front and center and kind of why you do what you do when you're beating yourself up or you're interpreting, you know, the reasons that you are not successful in a really devastating way. My question would be when an athlete, when you see an athlete who might be interpreting how they've performed and you know really devastated maybe taking it really personally beating themselves up what advice would you give them or tell me how you might approach that oh well the first thing I do is I give them a little time you know you don't want to just go right in there you know it depends on the situation but you have to feel the pain in order to really understand it. And that's the beauty, again, of sport is, you know, winning and losing

and, you know, frustration of, you know, throwing an interception when you thought it was there but it wasn't. And, you know, it just – you have to almost from a mindfulness standpoint experience it and feel it. But then step out of the situation, whatever is that period of time. And, you know, yeah, I did a pretty good job, and this is terrible. It sucks that this happened here or there. But, you know, I learned a lesson from it that hopefully I can put

into my next competition, or, you competition or I could put back into practice or that's that composure part. It's the emotional reactions to that. So when you find that perfect time to step in and intervene and let them know it's okay, it's not okay in their eyes at that particular time. They're very frustrated because they're invested. They're emotionally invested. But the interpretation process, step away, what worked, what didn't. I've got another little Euclidean signature I call check in, move forward. And it's tied to self-awareness and self-regulation and self-control, which I kind of target within mental skills.

When you think about your work with high performers, what do you think is too much where they're feeling it? You know, like, let's say if they're still feeling the pain a week later or two days later, what do you think in terms of the healthy amount to feel the pain? You can't take the person out of the student athlete. So in my population, so there may be other stressors that are also impacting and causing like that stress filter to feel clogged. You know, so maybe they weren't getting as much sleep or maybe they're grinding right now, or maybe now all of a sudden they're not studying the way they need to because they haven't let go. Or maybe there's a relationship issue or a roommate kind of issue that now all of a sudden, because I'm still emotionally a little fragile, everything is a little super sensitive. So, and again, I kind of look at mental health and mental well-being as a continuum. So I will always kind of work with the athlete and because I'm not a licensed psychologist, my training is more performance psychology and exercise and sports science, just with the way

we were trained at that time. You talk talk about stress talk about day-to-day stresses talk about the performance in relation to other things going on in your life and then having like a team of other specialists that you work with that hey you know i i i doesn't hear you a little bit and sounds like you're withdrawing from some things and you know this frustration is lasting more than this past week and you know maybe you need to allow me to make your referral over to the counseling center. You know, somebody, because you don't want it to spiral to the point that you're not getting other things done. So there's other people here. We have kind of like a team of specialists who have that same kind of philosophy,

who are looking out after them to make sure they're moving forward with their academics, their personal life, as well as their athletic life, including the coaches. Because the coaches are there every day and they get really concerned that, you know, they lost a little mojo or it looks like they lost a little bounce in the step. And, you know, the good coaches always ask questions about how they're doing without probing or prying, but they care. I think, you know, the whole idea of stress and intercollegiate athletics, they go hand in hand. You've got to be able to make sure you're still managing your sleep and managing, you know, the lack of time that you really don't have. You don't have a lot of time, you know, because you're in these meetings and strength and conditioning and all these other little things, as well as your athletic commitment.

And then you switch gears and you're studying, you know, and how do we kind of make sure you're moving in the right direction so your battery isn't totally drained. So there's a bigger picture here to help them keep perspective about their own mental health, their own mental well-being. And that, again, goes back to that philosophy. Athletics is what you do. It doesn't define who you are. Give the best effort. Do the best job that you can.

Routines. When you leave the locker room, leave it the best that you can. Take the next focusing skills to study for the next hour after you get something to eat, then come back to, God, I'm feeling really upset over what happened at practice or the last, well, segmented focusing to kind of come back to it, but don't let it kind of, you know, devastate other aspects of your life. We're teaching those skills about accountability for taking care of your own, you know, well-being. Well, I've heard a few different, maybe what would be described as signature techniques. Some I've already heard, like your mental goo,

or I've heard like check in and move forward. Yeah, speaking, thinking was part of the mental goo too. Speaking, thinking, that's good. What's another signature technique that's unique to you that you use to help your athletes and your clients, you know, be the best that they can be mentally? You know, I think just some of the other techniques, they're not so much signature. I think breathing is really important to slow things down.

And I find so many athletes and coaches, you know, they just, the hyperventilators take a quick, shallow breath to really work with them on the mindfulness of how to use an exhalation to slow it down. You know, so, you know, the three to six six ratio they kind of respond to that because they're like an orchestrator like I talked about you know you're the conductor of the orchestra but you're your own body and you need to take control of that so hey step out of the situation slow it down really work the exhalation then step back into that situation. So it's kind of like similar to check in, move forward, kind of step out and step in a little bit,

but using the breath to really kind of help yourself. Because every competitive situation is different. So I have a little problem with just signature, you know, techniques. I get the idea. But really they just need to be ways that they resonate with the athlete. And then that just not looked at as, you know, like a fortune cookie slogan, which a lot of coaches love out there. You know, what's the banner? What's the motto of the day? You know, great. You know, but it's not going to necessarily help you be mentally tough when

everything's kind of happening you got to execute you got to step into that moment you got to thrive in those situations you need to embrace the pressure and compete and do the best job that you can but after the competition's over you know it may be you didn't win. I go back to the World Series and there are a lot of... It was such a beautiful World Series at the end because you had two teams competing and you got to do

battle and there's guys out there just giving it everything that they can. That's that idea of choice because when you're out there, you got to choose to compete with what you got. when you're out there, you got to choose to compete with what you got. And even if you're tired, you got to still compete until it's over. You know, you keep fouling it off, fouling it off, fouling it off. All of a sudden, you get one pitch you look for off-chapton, and boom, it's 8-8. And then a rainstorm hits, and you come back, and

you know, it's a shame anybody had to lose either of those teams because really they didn't lose. They did because one's the World Series champ, the other is not. But I just think about the development, let's say, of the Indians and of the Cubs and the journey that took place starting in February to build the programming and the coaching and the spring instructional. They're all so much. It went into that,

that, you know, and this is an outsider talking about it, the love of the battle and the ability to step up and compete. But once it's all done, there's one winner and there's one so-called loser. Not in my eyes. I get it.

But there are a lot of great things that took place. They're just phenomenal. The strategic aspect, at least of baseball. Or you can look at all sports too. And if you can somehow not come across as goofy that you don't care about winning and losing, you do. Just to help them understand, maybe I did a pretty good job

and at the end, that guy just beat me. But you know what? As a great competitor, I can't wait for that next opportunity. All right, Dave, let me ask you a few questions about yourself. Okay. So we've been talking about

knowing why you do what you do, having intrinsic motivation. We've talked about personal meaning, which do what you do, having intrinsic motivation. We've talked about personal meaning, which I think all of those topics are related. So tell us, gosh, why you've been doing this for 28 years and what keeps you going? Well, it's pretty easy. You know, one, it's just the love of the relationship that developed. But more importantly, it's the partnership that I have. You know, my wife, Marla, is my sole partner. We've been married 43 years. And, you know, it just,

she loves sports, and she's got her own thing that she excels at. But we come back together and, and my, you know, kids, and even though they're older now, we're always in communication. And so I think that we as professionals, who's taking care of the health professionals, we have to kind of live our life in a way. And it's not always perfect, but make sure you take the time to recharge your batteries, whether it's with the loved ones that you have, or just getting away for 10 or 15 minutes to just step out of the situation, recharge your own batteries. Because you always don't have to be on like an Energizer bunner, but you need to be connected with the people that you have. Maybe I shouldn't share this story, but why not? You know, I give and I give and I give in a selfless way because that's what I do. You know, I just, athletes in here,

coaches here, I'm out there. And sometimes you can walk home or go home and, you know, it's like, and I'm a pretty good listener, but I may not be listening to my lovely wife when, you know, all of a sudden I just need a little time and she's giving me five different things and then you got to learn how to develop the space there it does come down to relationship and the things that you value to me yeah they're really important because everybody out there who's you know working as professionals you've got your own thing that makes you who you are but you better check check in. I guess the same philosophy. Sports psychology is what I do, but it doesn't define who I am. I love the opportunity to, you know, work in an intercollegiate

athletic environment that has the values that are consistent with kind of what I think are important about, you know, sport today and even sport yesterday. But you got to take some time to travel and do other things and connect with friends and, you know, do the things that are important. So that's a huge part of me. And the athletes know, you know, they come and they see pictures. My wife's all around here and, you know, different things. And, you know, so that's important. Let's go to the top 10 traits of high performers the list i sent you people can get this on my website let me take

out my notes go ahead take out your notes so people can find this at dr cindra.com and so dave i got a question for you about them which one do you think is the most important for high level performance and it's tough because you mentioned them when I first asked you about, you know, what, what separates athletes mentally. I think you named like all of them. I'll go back to that lasagna, Sandra. Yeah. Isn't it so true? So they're all interrelated because everybody's kind of building that, that belief wall of, of so many great skills you have.

And I wouldn't put something like on a numbering. They're all interrelated. It's not what I said about the breath. I can work with them on the exhalation, but the breath is just one thing. You got to then control your self talk. You got to control your emotions. And then you have to step into the moment and keep competing. I look at this and you've got wonderful things. It's a wonderful

trait to high performers, but I think self-awareness is always important. People don't understand what it means to be self-aware. I go back to the 60s and 70s when I started studying. I think of Timothy Galway's book, The Inner Game of Tennis and Golf. And he's talking about self-awareness and self-control with self one and self two. And I think you always have to be aware without overanalyzing. What's happening right here, right now? What are you checking in with to move forward? And it's not kind of overanalyzing, just kind of quick thermostat. What's happening? What do I need to adjust? You know, tennis is perfect because you have like switchovers and two games and, you know, how do you kind of use that

routine there? So I think self-awareness, having a clear mind ahead of time, what you're going to do to go out there and compete, have a mindset, a great competitive attitude. Again, with tennis, you don't know who the opponent is. What's the game plan you want to take out there with you? Then you've got to adjust because that's the nature of competition. But going out there and having a purpose for leaving behind the stress and now channeling energy, channeling. We talk about pre-shot, pre-routines.

I think also coming to the arena, you need to have like a funneling of concentration and focus with a mindset. But then when you walk out there, it's on automatic, and now let's go and compete. So that's what I think about thinking patterns it's not like okay i'm gonna hit a lob shot right here and then i'm gonna move to the net it's having the right mindset let's get after it i'm gonna be resilient competitor i'm gonna win the game every pitch every every at-bat, every inning, because every one of those are special. The grittiness, I just like grit and resilience. I always have, but as Duckworth is really, you know, the grit is keep battling. It's to keep competing.

I love the thing about authenticity because I'm always asking athletes to be authentic with the mental game, not phony. This isn't a fortune cookie. There are these skills that if you're working them help you be more instinctive under pressure, but you got to be authentic. So if you're high wired, emotional person, bring that with you, but control those things getting comfortable being uncomfortable that's that revisit ism but there's a lot of truth to that is that you're not always going to be in a peak performance state you may not have as much sleep you know got all these sleep monitors now and physiological

ways which I totally believe in. But sometimes it's not realistic. If a student athlete has got like two finals coming up and they just broke up with their boyfriend or girlfriend and they're just kind of a lot of goo right there, I need to take 100% of the 50% that I'm at that day. And now it's time to practice. And I got to bring my best practice attitude out there, even though I'm not 100%. So that getting comfortable being uncomfortable is always an important thing. I love the dominate the moment because really that's with the McGuire stuff about focus on what's the most important thing. And I use that kind of phraseology, you know, be a great competitor right here, right now.

Dominate. And dominate isn't kind of like, you know, I'm going to always do it because the other competition wants it. Dominate the moment is a great one. They're all great. Yeah. Which one of those, dave do you see your athletes struggle with self-compassionate oh isn't that so true because nothing's ever good enough

yeah you know that's that stinking thinking why you have high achievers because you know they can't kind of sometimes they can be so compassionate leaders on teams you haven't even talked about leadership they give they give to others and you know and i can be such a good listener for my roommate my teammate but why can't i be more compassionate for myself because i look at myself and i think i'm terrible or you know and it's it's a great one there about self-compassion. And that's what we have to do. You can still be selfless. If you were counseling yourself, what would you be saying to yourself here? Because if you're counseling others, you're as compassionate as can be.

So how do you kind of do that for yourself? But I still like the lasagna, even though you got the 10 traits. But I guess I like big, thick lasagnas. Well, I think the lasagna, what you're saying is like you got to stack these up. You know, I go back to what we first said and what you first talked about, that mental toughness is not something you're born with, but something you develop over time by stacking the mental skills in the lasagna. Right.

And then just, you know, you can refrigerate and come back to them. That's awesome. So Dave, you have given us so much to think about and to implement and just to help us better understand mental training and sports ecology. What kind of final advice would you have for those high performers who are listening? And kind of what I mean by high performance is just those people who I know they're listening for a reason because they want to be the best version of themselves and help other people be the best version of themselves so what advice would you have for them listening I think to believe in yourself and create your own journey I think that's so important you know my son listens to podcasts all the time and he works for non- nonprofits and you know and there's a lot of

really good podcasts out there and you know but I think what he gets out of them is just like belief yeah and skills that maybe I can listen to what some people are talking about and integrate that into what I'm trying to do so I think that's one of the most important things is that we've got a lot of high achievers in different kinds of professions and different kinds of lifestyles. But the commonality goes back to your first question, you know, about belief and believe in yourself and to find your own path. Because like, I don't want people to be a Dave Euclson. I want them maybe to learn some lessons that they put into life that maybe it was like a a yoda's you know somebody

who's there to think about but they got to go on their own journey i think a young sports psychologist and you know i think even myself when i was back in the prehistoric days of you know worrying about you about cognitive behavior modification. I'm going to use Rogerian. You've got to be yourself, and it's got to resonate with the people in an authentic, honest way. I think that's a real important takeaway. I'm big into groups and leadership, so I think a takeaway from this has a lot of application back into, you know, leaders of businesses, of educators,

of special ed kids, of parents, of superintendents of schools, that there's so much to working with groups. And if you can get them under a common vision and the whole idea of transformational leadership, where there's this, you know, the articulation of the vision and the whole idea of transformational leadership where there's this, you know, the articulation of the vision and the support that you're going to give them and to be able to challenge them and hold them accountable and take ownership, but it's still part of team because we represent the school district or the business or the athletic team, I think the skills of coaching mentally, like mental coaching apply as life skills. So I think that's an important takeaway. Learn as much as you can from the knowledge in our field and try and definitely look at good stuff because there's some bad stuff

out there too that people just write about. And then implement that into your own structure of living or leading. One last thing. I learned this from our volleyball coach. You've got to have followers to lead. So just by reading all these books and motivation doesn't mean you're going to be a great leader. You've got to kind of empower and inspire others to kind of get on board. If you're always talking down at them, or you're sarcastic, they're going to turn off. But if I can find ways to empower them and involve them in decisions and help them kind of, whoever it is, build respect in them

and now work towards something that has personal meaning. Now as a group, we're kind of working together. You have to have followers in order to lead. Well, Dave, I just want to thank you so much for your time and your energy and also your commitment and your service to the field of sports psychology, 28 years. Pretty amazing. And I want to tell you there's a few things that I could summarize in 10 minutes what the good things you said and you shared with us on this podcast. But I think a few things for people to just remember and some takeaways. I liked what you said about stinking thinking and mental goo

and how, you know, especially high achievers can be overthinkers or they want perfection. They care. They care, absolutely. And they're invested. And, you know, what you said about trying too hard and the keys are really staying in the moment, being right here right now, I heard you say a lot,

and having that positivity focus and the choice to be confident and the check in and move forward in terms of using that when people are struggling we talked about feeling the pain but not kind of letting it linger too long and one way to do that is just to check in and move forward and understand that it's it's what you do not who are. I heard you say that many times today. So I just want to thank you for, man, everything you've done for those student athletes that you've worked with and the coaches.

And I just want to thank you so much for being with us here today. Thank you, Cyndra. Appreciate it. It's been fun talking with you. It's always fun talking with you. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to High Performance Mindset.

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