History Daily - Saturday Matinee: Historically Speaking Sports

Episode Date: September 6, 2025

On today’s Saturday Matinee, we hit the basketball court to speculate about one of the NBA's brightest and most influential eras. Link to Historically Speaking Sports: https://sportshistorynetwork.com/podcasts/historically-speaking-sports/ Support the show! Join Into History for ad-free listening and more. History Daily is a co-production of Airship and Noiser.Go to HistoryDaily.com for more history, daily.

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I'll just say I don't really follow sports. I was going to say I have a confession to make,

but it's not really a confession, just a fact, a preference. I don't go sky diving either, and that's not a confession. But sometimes admitting you don't like sports, well, that feels a bit more like admitting you don't like television or movies or puppies.

Now, of course, I've watched enough sports to know how the games are played. I think I even understand off-sides in both soccer and hockey. But don't ask me player name. Certainly don't expect me to know the coaches. I may not even be aware of entire teams, if I'm honest. But that doesn't mean I don't love a good sports story. The movie Hoosiers was fantastic, Rudy, The Natural, Bull Durham, all great. I devour drive to survive on Netflix, but I've never once watched an actual F1 race. And I love sports history. Baseball is a fascinating mirror of a changing society, and who doesn't love the story of old

Teddy Roosevelt meddling in American football? So even though I don't sport much, I am looking forward to bringing you today's Saturday matinee. An episode from the podcast, Historically Speaking Sports, which looks back at one of the NBA's brightest and most influential eras and what could have possibly happened to rewrite the history of the game. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow historically speaking sports. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. This podcast is part of the Sports History Network, your headquarters for the yesteryear of your favorite sport. You can learn more

at sports history network.com. Hello once again sports fans and welcome to the podcast that gives you the best of sports from back in the day. And coming to you from the sports, Sports History Network, this is the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast. I'm Dana Augusta along with my co-host, Charles Cones, and we will go deep in the woods to discuss and possibly debate sports history topics that you didn't know you needed to know. So pull up a chair, sit back and relax, and pump up the volume for a dose of sports history info and maybe even a few laughs.

So with all that being said, here is the historically speaking sports podcast, the member of the Sports History Network. Hello sports fans and welcome to this, the latest edition of the historically speaking sports podcast. I am your host, Dana Auguster, and as long as there have been sports in this country, fans from everywhere have always wondered what could have been. In this episode, I, along with my co-host, Charles Combs, will discuss three scenarios that would have made the Jordan era of the NBA very, very different. and how these teams instead of the Chicago Bulls of the 1990s would have dominated the decade. That discussion, along with a shout-out to the 1986 NBA draft,

is coming up after this short break. You are listening to the historically speaking sports podcast, the place where we give you the best of sports from back in the day right here on the Sports History Network. Ladies and gentlemen, all sports fans, we are back and you're listening to the historically speaking sports podcast right here on the sports history network i am your host your co-host dana augusta along with charles combs and charles is joining us once again here on this sunday night that's we're recording chuck how you

doing the night man feeling pretty good just um like i mentioned before we just sent up here just taking some much needed r-and-r and just ready to rock and roll like always of course rocky road as we are and right now you know you all know we are in the middle of the NBA playoffs in fact last night the Indiana Paces just punched their ticket to go to the NBA finals to take on the Oklahoma City Thunder which was supposed to start this upcoming Thursday as we're recording this on this Sunday night but we're going to talk about a little bit of little hypothetical little what-ifs and actually Charles was the one who came up with this idea came up with this topic.

And it is a topic that you have to do with other people, with two very knowledgeable people to kind of bounce ideas off of one another. And I think this is a type of a perfect type of topic to have both of us talk about since we're both not only NBA fans, but NBA historians, but also we grew up in this era. So I think that the two of us are, you know, kind of come at this from the right direction. So, let me introduce, so, Chuck, why don't you tell us what was the idea that you came up with and how you, and what brought this on? Just something that I've always wondered.

Basically, the idea we came up, smack dab in the middle of the golden era of the 80s, and then obviously the golden era of the 80s gave way to the Jordan era pretty much. and Jordan is pretty much a consensus that he's the greatest play of all time, and he won a pair, repeat, repeats, six championships and eight years, sandwiched around basically a two-year retirement. And I've always wondered, now, caveat, I don't agree with him being the great, the goat. I think Kareem is for me personally, but that's another topic for another day. And I've just always thought about somewhat ips because early in Jordan's career before the 90s rolled around, he used to kind of get his butt smacked around a little bit on the regular by, you know, the Celtics and so forth. And then kind of the rise of the bulls kind of coincided with the decline of the 80s dynasties, most notably the Celtics and the Lakers.

idea comes in the place is that, you know, I feel that with Leon Byers, it is a few things that if it would have happened, starting with Liam Byers in the Celtics, perhaps their championship window would have been extended and a couple of other things that may have had a material impact on the Jordan era in those six championships in eight years. And I always wonder if these things would have took place, which we're going to discuss in the moment, would he have gotten those six titles? Yeah, and the way the, you brought up three scenarios that you brought to my attention. And I've always thought that those were very interesting scenarios that you brought up, which we would discuss here on this episode here of historically speaking sports. And before we get into that, please, if you haven't done so, please subscribe to the show. And if you have not done so already, please do that. And as well, if you have any other story ideas that you may have floating out there, or if you're just somebody that wants to come on the show with us, hey, you're more than welcome to come on.

So you can contact us here at HistoricallySpeakestports at historically. Dot speaking.spores at gmail.com. Once again, at email address, historically. Dot speaking. Sports at gmail.com. And also, you could also check us out on Twitter and Instagram and all the social media platforms out there for your daily dose of sports history. So like you say,

you had brought up, I should say, three topics or three scenarios. The first scenario was if Lynn Byers and Reggie Lewis had long careers with the Celtics, how history would have been different. Second scenario has everything to do with the Portland Trailblazers in the late 90s, if they would have drafted,

Arvita Sabonis, and he was able to come over to the NBA when he was drafted, instead of dealing with the political turmoil that was going on in the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc countries at the time of the mid to late 80s. And third, the Houston Rockets, which I've always considered to be that flash in a pan type team that was very good for that one year in 1980, 60, thrown in the Lakers in the conference firing Western Conference Finals in 86, and then playing facing the Celtics, that dominant Celtic team in 1986, how would that all would have been different?

If those things would have, like, for example, with the Rockets, what if Ralph Samson never would have gotten hurt, that following year in 87? And then the whole drug scandal that rocked the NBA the following year in 1987, that really affected that rocket's team. How all of that would have been different? And that's what we're going to be discussing here on this episode. So we may get into some debates.

We may get into some agreements here, which between you and I, that rarely happens. But anyway, but that's what we, that's what we, that's what we, that's what we, that's on deck for us tonight. Let's start off with the Celtics, okay? Since we, you know, we just talked about the 86 Celtics. Let's start there. 1986, the Celtics just won the NBA championship. They had defeated the Houston Rockets, we were talking about later, in six games.

And I've always, for whatever reason, I always thought they beat them in five games, but it was actually six games. You had that Celtic team who finished 40 and one in that regular season, went through the Eastern Conference fine, went through the Eastern Conference, You know, went to the finals with, you know, the usual cast of characters, Byrd, Paris, McH, Dennis Johnson, they brought in Bill Walton. You know, they went 40 and won that regular season at home. They win the NBA title. But believe it or not, the very next year, they have the number two pick in the draft, which they used to select Lynn Bias.

Now, you're wondering, okay, how in the world did they get the number two pick the year after they won the title? Like a couple months after winning the title, that's the number two pick overall. Well, I'm going to tell you, it was the wizardry of Red Arbac. That's how it happened. They traded away Gerald Henderson to the Seattle Sonics. the Sonics for the Sonics number one pick that ended up that year the Sonics had a horrible season

they had the number two pick in the draft which belonged to the Boston Celtics and with that they chose Lynn Byas yes wow I mean just the before we get into this just the brilliance of red art back I mean he just always would find the loophole

like for example the dude drafted Larry Bird a year early. Yeah, exactly. They were like, why are you going to spend your draft pick on somebody that can't even play this year? Right, exactly. You know how short a year is, man. Exactly. That's what that was the quote.

Do you have any idea how short a time a year is? Draffled him a year early and then, you know, they fleeced them with the draft. It didn't, wasn't Kevin McKell involved with that business with, I know Parrish and McKell. were involved with the Golden State thing with Joe Barry Carrey. Yeah, Joe Barry Carroll. And I forgot how exactly that worked out. But it was Danny Age and Robert Parrish, who was with the Golden State Warriors. They made it.

I forgot all the particulars of the trade. But they get those two in one deal. Okay. I think it was like they traded Joe Barry Carroll to. the Warriors to get for Parrish

and the draft pick and that draft pick ended up being Kevin McHale Yes I mean Highway robbery

Basically whatever happened to Joe Barry Carroll I mean I remember Joe Barrett Carroll when he was with Purdue

I remember that but that's the last time anybody heard of him well go to state with Siberia in those days

exactly you know the only The only person that you knew of from Golden State was to coach Al Adams. That was it. Correct. That was it. Long gone with Rick Barry and Keith Wilkes and that group, Clifford Ray and that group.

They were long gone, you know. So it was one of those things, man, that Red Arbac once again showed his wizardry. And here it is in 86. He does the same thing. Okay. And then you had the tragic circumstance. of Lynn Bias, you know, Burr was MVP in 86.

Okay, bias was the second pick in the NBA draft. He died of cardiac arrhythmia induced by a cocaine overdose. Okay. Now, they kind of reeled from that, but they still reached the finals in 87. Okay, losing to the Lakers in six games. Yes. So that offseason, they draft a kid named Reggie Lewis. Now, do it now.

I remember Reggie Lewis, but I wanted to get into like a little bit of history with him. Then this I didn't know. Went to Dunbar High School in Baltimore, which is kind of like in your neck of the woods. Yes. You know who his high school teammates were? Mugsy Boggs.

Mugsy Boggs, Reggie Williams, and David Wingate. Yes. Mm-hmm. I mean, if you are basketball junkies like you and I are, that's some really, that must have been an awesome, awesome high school basketball team. So awesome. In fact, in Reggie Lewis's junior year, Dunbar went 29 and O. That was his junior year.

His senior year, they go 31 and O. So in two years, they go 50 and O. in two years. And they're the number one team in the country in 1983. Uh-huh. So that's crazy. You know, now I went to a high school in Louisiana that was known for basketball. The highest we ever got the USA Today top 25 nationally, I think was number 20.

We never won't state because we always lost a team from New Orleans. You know, but we always lost a team. Like we always lost to like St. Aug or Jesuit or somebody like that, you know. But anyway, in 1987, Reggie Lewis was the 22nd overall picked by the Celtics. Okay, he didn't really play much his first year. But the second year, on the new head coach Jimmy Rogers, average 30 minutes and average 18 and a half points per game. In the 1990, 1991 had a career high against Miami with 42 points.

But then on April 29, 1993, in game one of the Eastern Conference first run against the Charlotte Hornets, he collapsed. And he ended up passing away like about a month later, I believe it was, you know, actually a couple of months later, July 27, 1993. He passed away playing, you know, working out at Brandeis University, suffering a cardiac arrest. He was only 27 years old. Now, in your opinion, if you would have had Lynn Byers and Reggie Lewis together, what do you think the Celtics main strengths would have been, in your opinion? I think the main strengths would have been, you know, despite how good they were throughout the McHale Parish and McHale era,

they were predominantly an inside team, although A. Scott, Edmund, and Byrd, obviously, could give you some outside shooting.

But they were, if you got them in the open court, even though they were a running team, but if they tried to run against certain teams, most notably, the Showtime Lakers,

they were at a significant disadvantage. And then later in the era, that was kind of like a similar problem with Isaiah and the Pistons, Chuck Daley, and those guys as well. That would have been one of the main, that would have shored up,

a key weakness in terms of foot speed athleticism that would have enabled them to play more up and more up and down first of all. And then also, you know, with Limbias, he's pretty good defensive player. Now, you're not going to stop big game, James. But then it gave him another option to kind of at least combat him, you know, give somebody that could give big game James some problems defensively, but then also offensively from from an athletic system standpoint. Because obviously Kevin McHale is a full load, you know, torture chamber down low.

But, you know, in terms of making James work on the perimeter, sometimes, you know, especially with the addition of Michael Thompson, that was specifically to help combat Kevin McHale to absolve worthy of that responsibility. So I think that would have been a strength. It would allow them to play more. They allowed them to play more up and down, give them some much-needed athleticism, and also give them a guy that could play three and four in terms of Reggie Lewis and give you some rebounding, possibly even some shot blocking.

And then also Reggie Lewis could probably guard twos and threes to the kind of help on magic as well. Well, they would have gotten no doubt about it. They would have gotten like in one fell swoop, way more athletic. They would have been way more athletic than what they were. This is a team that could run if they really wanted to, but that was not really there for a tete. They were more of a half-court type of team. With the addition of Reggie Lewis and additionally in bias,

they definitely would have been able to run the floor more effectively. They would have, you know, it would have made them considerably younger. That's for one thing. It would have made them considerably younger. But as far as them being more athletic, which is something that they really needed, because by the time the late 80s came around, in 89, Byrd missed most of the season, if you remember.

Correct. I played six games. Yeah, Bird missed most of the season in 87, in 89. So if you had had Bias, Reggie Lewis, and then you had other guys that was coming up. You know, the younger guys that were fading away, Danny Ainsh had was traded in the late 80s early 9-0. I remember he went to Portland, which we'll talk about later.

He ends up going to Portland. Dennis Johnson is a little bit older, you know, and you're starting to have new guys come in. Kenny Gamble, I think, was part of that. then you had Ed Pinckney to be winning with them. So I think a lot of people

think that Byrd would have played a little bit longer, which is possible. Mikhail would have played a little longer because they wouldn't have been as long in the two, sort of speak, with Mikeil

with, you know, with Mikhail there. He would have been able to spell some of those older guys some time while they figured them things out. But I don't think right away they would have been able to contend with the up and coming Pistons, at least in the beginning. Because the Celtics had lost to the Pistons in 88, in the 88 Eastern Finals. I don't think they would have been able to deal with that Pistons team at least then. But with the experience and everything, 90, 91 maybe. Well, 9091, they probably would have been back in the finals, in my opinion. Now, would they have been able to win it all?

Who knows? But in my opinion, with that team and with that team together and the experience that they had, they might have made the finals, I think, might. But, you know, they wouldn't have been able to get past the business in 88. I agree with that wholeheartedly. And then you also got to remember that, you know, in addition to 88, they were dead. This has had them dead the rights in 87. Yeah.

When Isaiah, you know, Byrd steals the ball. You remember the Bob O'Neill Classic call and, you know, then, you know, DJ to DJ lay through literally still game five. Right. You know, literally still game five. because they would have lost that year because the Pistons basically had the game Searle delivered to go up 3-2 going back to the Pontiac in game 6 to close the series out. Now, here's something else to consider too, and I just thought about this.

In 88, do you remember who the Celtics played the series before and what happened? They played the Hawk. They played the Hawk. Dr. Rivers, yeah, Dark Rivers went Dark Rivers on us, you know. You know, even as a player, they was up three, two, going back to Atlanta, and they somehow, some way, couldn't close the deal,

and then they went back in seven, and they were cooked, you know. You know, that was the famous Game 7. That was that famous Bird versus Dominique. Yes. Dual. Do you think that would have happened because, to be honest, Kevin McHale, they had Kevin McHale guarding Dominique. guarding Dominique.

Do you think it would have been different had it been Lynn Baez, guarding Neek? I totally agree with your assessment a few moments ago that in terms of Lin-Bias' arrival in 86 and Reggie Lewis in 87,

it wouldn't have had a material impact from a frontline standpoint. Like 87 in 88, I think what would have happened still would have happened there. Because, you know, they would have been pups wet around the ears and you're not going to just, you know,

they would have gotten minutes. They would have helped more so from a standpoint of athleticism and depth. You know, like to your point, instead of playing Darren Day and remember his name, Brad Lowell House. Yeah, Brad Lowell House. Yep, of course. Fred Roberts, bombs. You're talking about, you're talking about,

You're talking about stiff. That was a stiff for Ed Roberts. Boom. You know what I mean? Instead of them, they would help give them more depth, more athleticism, more bitch production,

and kind of would have lessened the burden of a bit from Bird, Harrison McKell, carrying the load all the time. But in terms of a material impact, like, you know, a rookie or a second year play on Dominique in Game 7,

And that's when Dominique's they had the S-curral flat top. No, KT Jones is not that stupid. He wouldn't have done that because, you know, he's far too inexperienced to have combated Dominique at that time. And then with those stakes, you know, that's how you lose the series. No, so I don't think it would have had a material impact at that time. Okay. You know, another person that was on the 88-89 team that was, and he was a rookie then

who had a very long NBA career that, that I had. have to mention is Brian Shaw. I mean, not to be a jerk, but your point is? I just thought it was it. I just brought it up because I thought it was interesting. That's all. I'm not trying to make any kind of grand

pronouncements or anything. I just thought it was interesting. Like, you know, you know, like in terms of, you know, perhaps he would have put gas in the car or watch the windshield, but that's about it. You're not going to count. And he was a a smart player and all of that. And he was a player that, you know, especially later in his

career as a veteran was essential, you know, especially with those Laker teams. But at that time, you know, he, he didn't really move to me, you know, one way or another, you know, whatever. You know, can have Sam Vincent too, you know. Yeah, that's true. Sam Vincent, right. You know, so. But one of think another thing is that I want to touch on is is that not only you had to deal with the Eastern Conference would have been like crazy loaded you know you had the self-tick you had the the Dukes who is on you know who is up there then you had the up-and-coming Chicago Bulls you know which we all know what they did later on and I think it would have been interesting to see what kind of matchups they would have had between the Bulls and the

Celtics with a Reggie Lewis with a um with Lynn bias you know because for those of you who don't really know I don't really remember Lynn Byers he kind I mean it's hard for me to if you had to compare Lynn Byers to somebody now who would it be you think oh look at me I think I think I think LeBron since they played the same position at the same height You know, I don't, I don't think it's like LeBron, you know. LeBron's just a special case. But as far as just, you know, somebody that you think that is most likely, like a Lynn bias. I'm tempted to say from what I remember of him.

I'm tempted to say Kevin Durant. I'm tempted to say that. You know, but he didn't have to hide as Kevin Durant, but he had the athleticism and the outside shot. And the one thing that he had that Kevin Durant didn't have was that's the interior toughness, the rebounding toughness, you know, he was a tenacious rebound. He was six, eight, six nine from Maryland playing the ACC. You know, he was the, I think the ACC player at a year 1986. Yes, she was. So it was, you know, and he was like the last great Maryland player during the Letty-Drasel era in Maryland.

So, I mean, it was, you know, it was like, he was so athletic for his size, he was somewhat of a, I guess you can say, quote, unquote, freak athletically for whatever you could call that in the mid-1980s. You know, he was that, in my opinion. It's weird, because he was, you really couldn't pencil him because the hard part. part is you never really got to saw him with his game fully developed. Right. He was still kind of raw.

He was just college player who was raw. So from what I saw of him, because I still remember I woke up if we had just gotten out of school and I woke up one morning. I want to say it was like the, it was like the summer after fifth grade. I remember I woke up and it was just everywhere that he had passed. Yeah. And it was like, you know, you would hear people would say, he passed, he passed, he passed. But in those days, you know, if the story happened too late, it wouldn't be in the paper to the next day.

Right. And it wasn't, the new cycles weren't like you could find out instantly now. But anyway, on to your question, at that time, he was kind of like weird because he had some elements of James Wordy around the basket and an ability to finish. To your point, he had some abilities of Kevin Durant with the outside. shot not quite the handle at that point right but i think under the tutel of burd mckell red are back i think casey jones he would have stayed he wouldn't have left had he not died you know i think he would have stayed on i think he had some elements of Sean i saw some Sean Kemp but not quite as big as Sean Kemp no some some elements of Sean Kemp that's a go one that's a gore right there

and then also some elements of um some Tracy some Tracy McGrady elements. Right, right, right. He was like a combination of like, he would, I felt he would have been a combination of like Tracy McGready, Sean Kemp, James Wordy, because to your point about Kevin, the ramp, even though he had, um, Bias had an outside shot, at that point he wasn't as fluid and, um, um, comfortable in the,

you know, he could dribble and stuff, but not like KD could, but conversely, he was much strong on the boards, much, much stronger back to the basket. And then, you know, he would have been a guy that would have been too fast for fours, too big for threes. Like, you know, you try to put a four on him.

Yeah, he was a, he was a walking mismatch for any kind of defense at the time of the NBA doing the late 80s. He was a walking mismatch because it's just like you said, he was too big for your typical three to guard him, a typical small forward to guard. He was just too big. Right. But you could, you

couldn't put a four a power forward on it because power forwards back then were basically known for rebounding and inside play you know there wasn't like stepping out behind the york or stepping out from 15 or 18 feet out and just your drain and just open mid-range jump shots which lynn bias was very adept of doing you know he did that at maryland like with ease you step out you know toward like maybe 18 20 feet away and just drop jump shots on you all day long and whenever somebody tried to come and check him, guard him on the outside, he could easily put it on the floor and drive right by you. And that was something brand new in the late 80s that you never really saw before.

Another player that I really thought of that kind of reminded me of him in a way that we saw later in college basketball is Chris Weber when he was at Michigan. Yeah, I agree with that. Much more explosive than Chris was. Yeah. Much more explosive. and much smarter and key moments than then Chris now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I saw that in person.

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And to your point about match-ups, immediately, like you said, there's kind of like a new combination, immediately come into mind the only defender that would have

been able to match up with him would have been Detroit Pistons Dennis Rodman. Right. Because he had the ability to, you know, you could switch him out on twos and threes. He could move his feet laterally and really go out the dribble really well. But then at the same time, he could hold his own on the boards, obviously, and also in post-defense as well.

He kind of had the all-around elements at that time defensive guy. Other than that, you know, like your Michael Cooper's. They could go out the perimeter really well. Couldn't put him on by his way. too strong, you know. And other guys, you know, like a John Sally, for instance, Beulane Beer type, he's just going

to bring him out the 17, 18 feet and face him up and pull that jumper or put that down on the ground and kill. Put it on the floor and go right past him. Now, with this Celtic team, with him and Reggie Lewis together, now we've talked about just a lot about Len Byers. Let's give a little shout

out to Reggie Lewis. Reggie Lewis was basically a two guard. Okay, he was a two guard. They put him at point. He could play the point, but he was more comfortable as a two, even, or maybe even a three. You know, if I had to compare him to somebody from what I remember, and this is getting a little bit more nowadays, it's a little bit more contemporary. He kind of reminds me of Tyrese Halliburton.

If you really, he reminds me a lot of Tarese Halliburton. And you talk about recency bias. I'm guilty of that right here. He was a guard that was a great shooter, could put it on the floor. He wasn't like an explosive dunker or anything like that. But he was just one of these professional scorers. That's what I would call. He was a professional score.

Somebody that could put it on the floor. He's one of those guys that if you watch, Watch him play. In the third quarter, the analysis says, Reggie Lewis, that is point number 24 for him. And you're like, when did he score 24 points? Is it like a quiet score, you know? Correct.

And, you know, he's kind of like a Tyrese Halliburton. Like another person that comes to mind when I think of him is Michael Redd from the Milwaukee Bucks in the early 2000s. That's what he kind of reminds me of. Correct. He always gave me elements of, he always kind of reminded me of a better version of Alan Houston. Yeah, okay.

He was like a two guard that on defense he could guard twos and threes. As you noted before, he wasn't the most explosive player, but he wasn't a terrible, he wasn't a terrible athlete either. He could defend two positions. He was also a guy. He was kind of like a, to me, like a combination of Allen Houston in the original point fold. Paul Pressing, you know, he was kind of like a combination.

That's a blast of the past. He was kind of like a combination of those two guys where, you know, he had a better, he had a better handle and Alan Houston probably could was a slightly better peer shooter, slightly. But in terms of handles and able to score efficiently, then as far as being able to create all. offense for others and make the people around him better. He was light years ahead of Allen Houston in that regard.

And that's where the Paul Presley reference comes in at because he had those Paul Presley elements in terms of from a defense as well as a playmaking for his supporting cast standpoint. Right. Let me ask you this. Okay. The other elephant in the room is the Chicago Bulls. How would you think with them matching up with the bulls of the early? And I'm not talking about the late 90s. We're talking about the early 90s with BJ Armstrong and John Paxson.

How would they, that Celtic team, armed with bias and Reggie Lewis, how do you think they would have been able to match up with those guys? To your point, as in 1987, 88, up and there, the Pistons, that would have been a bit too early. starting about 91, 92 up in there that would have really been the sweet spot for those guys.

You know what I mean? And I think they would have really given the Bulls a hard time. I mean, really, they probably, you know, you know, it would have been quite interesting. It would have been probably seven-game series and even if Jordan

gets by, you know, he kind of would have faced a similar fate that Bird and Docky used to face in the early 80s, you know what I mean? You know, after they get through, they have the battle, they would have the battle teams like the Milwaukee books in that semi-final round, and then they tear each other the shreds in the conference finals. And then whatever was left of them,

they drag out to the West Coast for the Lakers who've been sitting up chilling. Yeah, you know what I mean? Playing whoever, you know. And that's the way the East was. I mean, like, you know, I mean, taking a look back at the early 90s, 9091 in the Eastern Conference, you would have had the sell things. Let's just put them in there just for the sake of argument, okay, with bias and Reggie Lewis. Then you would have had the Chicago Bulls, the up-and-coming young Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan, Scotty Pippen, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, you know. then you would have had the up-and-coming New York Knicks with Patrick Ewing, you know, and his crew.

You know, I'm afraid to mention his name because it might dry an eye out of you, but Charles Smith. Oh, God. Oh, God. That freaking dude, man, you know what I mean? But my thing is, they would have certainly, to me, not to cut you off, they certainly would have been better than the Knicks for sure. Yeah. You know, for sure. because they just had too many,

the Knicks had too many deficiencies and hit too many scoring droughts. Right. Another team is the Cleveland Cavaliers. Brad Dardy, Mark Price, Craig Yelo, Larry Nance, John Hot Rod Williams, Gerald Wilkins.

That was another team that I think would have been, you know, that really made the East Deep back in the early mid-th-night, you know, coach by Lenny Wilkins. You know, that is another team that made the Eastern Conference

really good. deep. And I think that that team has been lost to history of how good that Cleveland Cavaliers team really was. Yeah. They were really good, but they would always many Wilkins

would just always make the most absurd calls at the worst times because, you know, I still remember vividly remember Ron Harper saying that when they final play in game five, you know, the iconic when Jordan hung in the Alva, Craig,

Elo, the bang it and seal it in game five when he said as soon as Lenny Wilkes was like, he wanted to guard Jordan for that final possession when he was like, well, no, we're going to put Eiloh on him. He was like, game is over. In his head, he was already like the game is already over. It would have been quite interesting. I, with the Celtics had certainly beaten the Bulls. I'm not sure about that because it would have depended on, I think, Lynn Bias.

It would have depended on them bias of sealing. Because like in in college, he was every bit of Jordan's equal. Yeah. But nobody, even the most ardent Tar Hill fan foresaw with Jordan. Nobody thought everybody knew Jordan would be good. Right. But nobody foresaw what he wound up doing. Nobody saw that coming.

Nobody. I mean, who could have? I mean, when he first joined the Bulls, he was Mike Jordan. Is that a Michael, he was Mike Jordan. Yeah. And they even put it worse than this. And then the guys at first, this a blast from the past. He was deferring to the fake big old, Orlando Worri.

Orlando Warriors was a ball of those. But he can't be called on the guy the big old like he, Oscar Robinson or somebody, you know, man. know what I mean? So it would be depending on limb biases feeling, a combination of that as well as how much tread bird, Bird, Parrish, and McHale would have had. My hypothesis was always that it would have extended the window. It would have extended the effectiveness of Bird Parish and McKeel. Because you just look at it. I did a little research, right? In 87, they lost to the Lakers, obviously. In 88, they lost in six. to the, um, to the, um, Pistons.

In 1989, Jimmy Rogers first year, I'm presuming if Lynn Byes live, um, Casey Jones wouldn't have went to the Supersonics.

He would have stayed with the Celtics. Right. So, um, they got swept by the, they got swept by the pistons in the first round. Bird only played six games. Six games in a year,

yeah. And Reggie Lewis, average 18 and a half. 1990, they lost him five to Sue Jackson, Patrick Ewan, and the

with Maury's cheeks at point guard. I mean, Maury's cheeks, not moochie's. I mean, ancient Maury's cheeks. That's a fireball offense. But Bird and McKell, they went 52 and 30. Bird and McKell each averaged over 20. Parrish average 15 and Lewis average 17.

And the kicker is this, right? 1991, they went 56 and 26. Now, at this point, Bird had the bad bat. He had the double heel surgery. Kevin McKell, he never quite recovered from the ankle, the foot problems in 88. They went 56 and 26, lost to the Pistons in the Conference Semites in six. They took the two-time defending world champions, six in the conference semis, and Bird average 19, Lewis average 17, McHare average 18, and Robert Parrish at age 37,

average 15 and 11. So I'm thinking you have buyers still in there. These are pretty effective numbers. They would have been even more effective because they wouldn't have had to they wouldn't have had as much burden

nor responsibility. My hypothesis would have been they would have been pretty formidable for the poor. Would it have been a certainty? Absolutely not. Because, you know,

Al Jordan, especially when he had hell on his head, God damn. Yeah, you're right. You're right. He had hell on his head, man. That dude, you know what I mean? That dude. You know, and you know me.

I don't like Joe at all. But you got to get, I got to, you got to, you got to defer, bro. You have to defer. You have to defer. Especially with George with hair on his head. You can't understand. They would have gave him a pretty good darn run.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Because, you know, they definitely would have still had between the trio of Bird Parish and McKell, as well as Casey Jones, who I would assume would have still been there. Right. They certainly would have had the edge and experience for sure. Yeah. You know.

And, you know, it would have been pretty formidable. And I think it would have came down to probably a, as long as the Celtics don't blow a game that. they were supposed to win or they had the bag, which they typically did not do. They never really beat themselves a lot. I think it would have came down to seven games. And they probably would have gotten by at least once. They'd have gotten by them probably once. Yeah.

And plus playing home playoff games in the garden, which is probably another five points in their favor every now and then. You know, paying the left the little leprechaun down in the basement a few shekels, you know, for the wins or whatever. you know what I'm saying. And then also read in late May in late May when it starts to get hot

in Boston the gardener used to have any AC or anything but oh red a crack up the heat and they'll turn the heat on and crank up the heat that's right that's right

you know you know for whatever reason and it just so happens that the windows you know they couldn't put the windows up in the room or something like that. But it was always something.

It was always something with red, you know. But before you mow it, I think it would have affected them because even had they gotten through the series with Boston, you know, they would have gotten through the series with Boston. What would always benefit them was once they played the Western champion, you know, it will kind of be, they weren't as rough as tough and tumble. or in all of that, or they never were extended to seven games in the conference finals. So these would have been seven.

They would have had to come in with some nicks and bruises, which would have possibly made them right for the picking for the next team we're going to talk about. Right, exactly. And I was just about to mention that. The number two scenario, what if Arvita Subonis from Lithuania would have came to the Blazers in 86 instead of waiting over a decade to join them after two knee surgeries and gaining like 30 pounds, you know, to play for the Blazers.

What if he would have joined the Blazers in 1986? And also in that draft was a young man from Croatia named Drazen Petrovich. What we could have seen from that squad in the late 80s and early 90s, teaming up with Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, and Jerome Cursey. What were you going to see from that squad? Well, first of all, we wouldn't have seen Jerome Cursey had I been the coach. You know, but I'm just saying like in terms of, you just think about it, from 89 to 93, Portland average 57 and a half wins.

from 80. And this is when, you know, they had in a three-year period, they lost to the Lakers in the conference finals in 1990. I think their best team, which was their best team. Correct. They won like 63 games that year. There was 63 games in 1990. 91, they went 63 and 19.

In 1990, when they went to the NBA finals, they went 59 and 23 in 1990. And in 92, when they lost, to the Bulls, they were 57 and 25. But that 1991 team, 991, he went 63 and 19, and I will never forgive Cliff Robinson for blowing that layup against the Lakers.

I will never blame, I will never absolve him of that sin because there was on a fast break late in the game and it would have given the Portland the lead and he blew a wide open layup. And the Lakers went down and scored again, got the lead back, and they never recovered. And you still remember the image

of magic through the ball down the court as the help as the time expired, Cliff Robinson in the background looking at what the happen. What the hell you mean? What happened? You blew the layup. But I think that loss was two finals appearances and losses were sandwiched around that. You have to think about this, right? From, I'm back into this, right?

He didn't appear for a decade. He didn't come to Portland until age 31. two knee surgeries and an Achilles tear later. Wow. Yeah. You know, the man, first year, age 31, he average 14 and, he average 14 and 8 the first year, second year. And one block, you know, then second year, 13, 13 and 8. Third year, age 33, the man average 16 and 10. you know, age 34, the band average, I mean, 12, and 8. Now, the man is washed up, clearly passed his best, and put up those numbers. Now, that's transpose these against Duckworth numbers during, from 89 to 93.

Duckworth, 89. They lost in the finals. He was good for 16 and 6. Pretty good. But old washed up. old washed up subonis that's comparable. Even him washed up is giving you Duckworth production, 1990. Yeah, Dougworth was just, what, it is third year, second, third, fourth year in the league.

You know, one most improved player, but a lot of times in order to be improved, you had to have been bad at some point. Right. You know, right. Not that hate on the man, but I'm, I don't speak ill that it did. 91, when they lost to the Bulls, he averaged 10.7 points and six rebounds a game. And then 92, he average 95. Now, none of these seasons did he average over a block of game.

He was never a shot blocker. No, he was. All of these years, Sabonis was washed up. He gave you comparable, even better production, and he was able, he wasn't a turnover machine. And he could give you a block of game. So imagine if Sabonis, as we may. mentioned a couple of years ago when we were talking about the NBA top 75 discussion. He's the man that's like all of the dream teams, all of the stuff putting people, putting, putting people to bed in the Olympics and the gold medal game.

All of the Kobe closed out the Olympics, all of that. Why is all of that happening? So bonus is the genesis of all of those things. Exactly. He's the genesis of all of that. So imagine if you take off, if you take off. Buckworth put some bonus on. The Bulls in 92, they beat Portland and six. But if you remember game six in Chicago Stadium, they needed Phil Jackson put the scrubs in

because the Blazers were out like 15 going into the fourth. And the combination of Bobby Hanson, Scott Williams, Stacey Key, they made a run to get them back in distance because, you know, Rick Adamant is going to do Rick Adamant thing. Stuff, right. You know, I mean. And then that got Jordan, Jordan got his mojo and then brought it home. So imagine they should have went seven with Portland that year

had they not blown game six with Duckworth. Right. Now, in Duckworth's defense, okay. Now, you're talking to somebody who was a Portland Trailblazer fan during that time. Because my all-time, you know, all my longtime favorite player is Clyde Drexler. It's always been Clyde Drexler,

my longtime favorite player. Kevin Duckworth was not drafted by the Blazers. He came to the Blazers in the middle of the 1986 season. He was drafted by San Antonio Spurs, by the Spurs. He was drafted by the Spurs, but came over. Middle of the season for, I forgot, the starting center was Kenny Carr. That was the starting center for the, you know, for the, for the Portland Trail Blazers under head coach Mike Schuller. If some bonus was there, Duckworth would never would have been a blazer.

Never. I could not imagine them still making a deal to get Kevin Duckworth. Now, can you imagine this starting five? This would have been like in the 1990 series. Terry Porter at Point, who was one of the most underrated point guards ever. Clyde Drexler, one of the greatest players of long time. Then you would have had at center you would have had Sabonis. Okay. Then you would have had

Jerome Cursey and Buck Williams. And then you would have had guys like Drozhen Petrovich, which we'll get into in a second because that's absolutely criminal. You said yourself just a few minutes ago that Rick Adelman was going to do Rick Atleman things. And he did with Drozzen Petrovich. okay you had other guys Walter Barry was on their team you had other guys Clifford Robertson who we talked about you had Wayne Cooper at Center

which was another stiff but good backup no yeah he was a good backup yeah you know he was kind of a stiff but he was decent you know he was decent

he lay wood no you know but yeah that was that was that was the 90 Trailblazers. And Buck Williams, they came over from New Jersey, you know, which was one of the, one of the most underrated free agency pickups, I think it was.

You know, I think it was a free agent, if I'm not mistaken. He was, and he was a little past his best in terms of his ability. But he fit right in with that team. He fit right in with what he could do with that squad. Hard hat. Yes, sir. Certified hard hat. Yes. Right. Exactly.

So for those, who, if you had to compare, and I like to do this, you know, compare and contrasts between today's players and a player that we're talking about, when I see Arvita Sabon, I'm talking about the young Arvita Sabonis, when he was at Lithuania and played on the Russian national team. I know where you're going. Slide right in. Go ahead. Who you think?

He's Yokic on steroids. Thank you. Thank you. He's basically an athlete. he's basically an athletic, shot-blocking, finish around the rim, you know, physical freak version. He had all the skills, he had all of the skills that Yolkich had, but he had like Shack-A-Laflanticism. He was athletic. Yeah, Shack-Size, shack-athleticism, but could do everything that Yolk could do.

And at Dirk-Novisky's shot. Correct. At Dirk Novakis fadeaway jump shot. This dude was a walking cheat code in the 1980s. And just like you said, he was the reason why the dream team came about. He was the reason because the Russian national team with him on, along where Sorunas martialonas. You know. Bowler!

Bowler! Exactly. Exactly. for those of you who don't know so Runa's Marshalonis is it was a Russian version of John Stockton you know that could shoot

he was a Russian John Stockton and another thing oh not to cut you all to get a man his flowers he is the originator of the Eurostep Yep the original exactly he was the one who started it

He was the first man doing he's the originator of the Eurostep the Euro step. See, you learn stuff every day on this show, folks. You really do. He's the originator. Yes. You know, that Russian national team that just dismantled the USA Olympic team in

1988, that was, you know, that was the creation of the dream team because they realized with that team that Europe and basketball had indeed caught up. They didn't caught up. caught up, you know. And all of these years of USA basketball and stuff like that, sending college kids to play against grown men. This U.S., this Russian national team in 1988 was all grown-ass men, period. They were grown men playing in this game. And with Soponis, Soponos was what, 7-3? You know, 7-3, approximately 300 pounds. And he could jump through the building. He could dribble. He could dribble like a guard. He could shoot to your point.

Basically, when he crosses, you know, anywhere from 28 in, 30 in, he's in range for a shot. And to your point about his dominance in 88, he went up. Now, how does this front line sound to you? The Admiral David Robinson, Alonzo Morning, Danny Manning. You would take that front line, wouldn't you? Absolutely. Absolutely. He throttled them like they were a bunch of children. Yes. By himself. Literally by him, you're right.

Literally, he was by himself. And that was like what the medal round. It was in the metal round. It was like the semifinals that they played Soviet Union. And they ended up getting the bronze because they lost that game and ended up winning the bronze medal game. And they couldn't do anything with that guy. and to touch upon his impact on the Blazers. Okay, we know about the scoring and the rebounding

and the ability to run the floor. But could you imagine what he would have been able to do with his playbaking ability with, I mean, Clyde was a very good shooter. To your point, the underrated tier order was a deadly, a sniper. Was it from three-point right? range, absolutely. And then

even Drozepetrovich had you given a minute. And even Jerome Cursey and Book Williams, they were tremendous slashes and finishes around the bucket, basket. Could you imagine the chaos he would have

caused with his playmaking ability just finding those guys, finding those open shots, hitting those cutters, slasters, man, it just would have, it would have been unfair all, you know, even with Rick Adaman as the coach. It would have been unfair.

You know, looking at that Blazers team, the way you should describe it, you know, and I was always thinking about who would have given them the most competition in the Western Conference at that time. You had the Lakers who was on the down side of their dynasty, you know. They were still making the finals mostly because they really had no real competition in the West, you know. You were playing against Denver and then Dallas and then Phoenix and then, you know, teams of that nature who were West, who basically was just the sacrificial lamb of the, of the Lakers doing the late 80s and early 90s. But then you had the, then you had this Blazers team with that lineup, you know, Kareem was pretty much done, you know. They weren't going to put Kareem out there on Arvita supporters. I mean, let's just be real.

That would have been elder abuse, honestly. Yes. And, you know, Michael Thompson, A.C. Green going up against? No, no. That's not, no. Too small. Just way too small. Right.

Then you would have had the young and up-and-coming Utah Jazz with Carl Malone. They were up and coming. They were pretty much worth the team. They had arrived because they had given the Lakers all kind of hell. in the years in the playoffs before, you had an up-and-coming Sonics team with young Gary Payton, you know. But none of them would have been able to handle.

Yeah, San Antonio, you know, with a young David Robinson and Sean Elliott, you know, they couldn't have handled that. So this Blazer team, even without suboners, was winning 55, 60 games a year. Addings a bonus, they might have hit 70. It would have been tough. And the only team I can think of that would have given them some trouble just for one year.

For one year, though. Well, not had they come across them, obviously. Well, they didn't hit. They never mind. I was going to say, kind of similarly to what we discussed with the Celtics, he would have came in in 86, 87. they wouldn't obviously it usually takes a couple of years

to get your feet on the EU so I would say to your point probably that 88 89 season right up and there they probably would have arrived the year early because at first what I was going to say was 87 the Super Sonics when they had the trio of

Davey McDaniel Tom Chambers Tom Chambers Dale Ellis that comment but they wouldn't have been in contention at that time no way and caveat on on Del Ellis man he's the only guy that they could shoot and the net don't even move. I mean, you're right, man.

I mean, the net, I mean, the ball goes technically nothing but net, but sometimes the net wouldn't even move. That's how, that's how cold Dale Lillis was, man, you know. So, so they would have been, man, in them early 90s, they would have been hell, man, because I still think, the jazz although you know

you can't you have to you know I was also going to say Phoenix also with Kevin Johnson

Jeff Hornacegg Mark West um this was this um Eddie Johnson you know I don't think they would have had

I don't think they would have had enough Tom Chambers I don't think they would have had enough in like that like 89 9091 they were I don't think they would

I don't think they would have I don't think they would have enough two names, right? Well, one of my favorite coaches, Cotton Fitzsons. You know, but two names would derail their chances big time. You mentioned one. Mark West. Mark West.

Yeah. And then when they, he, he, he pick up, I've seen him pick up his first two files in the game before the first TV timeout. But, you know, I've seen them do it constantly. And then they will come in with another Andrew Lang, man, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about Andrew Lang. I did forget about him. Just no. Kevin, Kevin, KJ, Chambers, and Hornacek would have still gotten their numbers, but they weren't exactly elite defensive players either way. Phoenix had never really been a defensive team. Never. I mean, going all the way back,

I mean, going back to the 80s, they were never with KJ and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, Harnasek. They were never a defensive team ever, ever. They had Dan, Marley. But he wasn't in the league yet. He didn't get into the league until like 80. I don't know, like 90. He didn't get into the league. 90, 91,

he didn't get into the league. I think. Because I know he was on that, because I know for sure he was on that 88 team. Yeah, that Olympic team. Yeah, he was on the Olympic team, but he might have still been in college then. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah.

So it would have been, and then you, you, I mean, that combined with the fact that they had absolutely nobody to guard Clyde. And I mean, nobody. No. You know, it just, it just, you know, it would have been entertaining for sure, but they, they wouldn't have really mounted a serious challenge. Now, in 92, the Blazers in 92, I know this really didn't really add much to it, but the 92 blazers added, in free. agency, Danny Aange came in from the Celtics. They had veteran leadership. You also had a young Robert Pack, which is, if you had to compare him to somebody today,

it would probably be John Moran coming off the bench as a rookie Robert Pack. He was a guy that was an undersized player who could, I remember him dunking over Sean Kemp once. He was good. And then you also got to remember a guy perhaps that was. was a little bit before his time, but he was a certified sniper in his own right. I never cared too much for him as a player, but he was a very good shooter. And I'm speaking to Tracy Murray.

He can really, and I mean, with some bonus and with the type of mismatches they would have had and his ability to stroke that outside shot in that three ball, that would have, that would have really given them some, you know, some things. too, man. And, you know, that would have given them, that would have given them another dimension as well. Right. And we cannot leave off the Blazers. We're not talking about this other part. And that's Drozhen Petrovich. Yes. Drozhen Petrovich was basically the original, one of the original, um, Steph Curry's. You know, I've had, I've already said that Steph Curry, we've seen Steph Curry before. We've seen it in Drozent Petrovich. And we've seen it in my,

Mudd Abdul Raouf, aka Chris Jackson. That's who we've seen Steph Curry. We've seen Steph Curry before, but one of them definitely is Drozhen Petrovich. From Croatia, unfortunately, tragically died in a car accident. But

he was one of the absolute deadliest snipers the NBA has ever seen. He was a European assassin is what I used to call him. The European assassin because this guy would pull up from anywhere. Now, he got a lot of play and became very famous when he joined the New Jersey Nets along with Kenny Anderson and, um, um, um, um,

and, um, Derek Coleman. Yeah, um, in, uh, in New Jersey. But he was part of that Blazers team and Rick Adaman really didn't play him that much, you know, which I thought was, was a shame. And that Even then, even at that time in the early 90s, I remember seeing him play. It seemed like every time he shoot the ball, it would go in. Like, why don't you play this guy more? But I think that the reason why Adaman really didn't play him because he might have been a liability on defense. He wasn't really a good defensive player,

at least until he got to New Jersey. And under the tutelage of Chuck Daly. Chuck Daly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but Drozhen Petrovich was like one of the great. great, great shooters this the NBA had ever seen. Correct. And I often refer to him as the Jackie Robinson of Europe. Yeah.

Because, you know, before, and I know you mentioned about the Olympic team, I'm referring to within the context of the NBA, within the context of the NBA, it was always this stigma that most of the European players at that time, especially the bigs, they were either too robotic or they couldn't handle the physicality. And then overall, even though you had some moments like martial illness, but soon as Marshallones got going, he hurt his knee. And then he was really never the same. And it was just thinking about that the European players,

they couldn't play, they were vastly inferior and so forth. Whereas Drozhen, he was kind of the first European player to kill that noise. He was kind of the first European player that came. over and the NBA players was like, oh, damn, okay, this guy can play, this guy can play a little bit. He actually can play. And he was a tremendous player. And I always enjoyed watching him because he was tremendous to watch. But then just his sheer joy for the game, like his three celebrations, he was celebrating like he just wanted to French open, like he just wanted to French open or something. And Jesse, and then, you know, it just,

tragic because we in our couple years ago, you and I, the little brother Mark, shout out to Mark. Shout out to Mark, by the way. The little brother Mark, we had the discussion about who would have been top 75 if not if not

for extenuating circumstances and Drozin as well as Sabonas would have certainly been top 75 and that would have given the Blazers three top 75 players along with Clyde Drexler.

Yep. You know, I always think whenever I think of Dros and Petrovich, I always think of him crossing Jordan. When he put a crossover on Michael Jordan and made him look foolish, you know. And I like, when he did that, he was like forever in my heart, forever. You're like, this guy and, you know, and you wonder, you know, why the New York, why the New Jersey Nets never really won as much as they did. If you listen, I mean, you had Derek Coleman, you had Kenny Anderson and Drozzen, you know.

And I've always figured that that was like sort of like a missed opportunity for that franchise. Well, not to dwell on that too long because I know it's not the topic. Right. Me being a Knicks fan at the time, you remember, Drozen, that happened with Drozzen the summer of 93. Yeah. Then, um, um, um, very Coleman, you know, he's another player. Ability wise, ability wise, he should be up there with, with the Mons and the Barclays talent wise, but yes, he never, he never panned out.

He didn't like, you know, he didn't love basketball that much. He would just, he just happened to be good at it. And then for Kenyon, if you remember correctly, um, he was really fine in his stride and become like an all-star level. guard, but then he got cheap shoted by John Starks and broke his shooting wrist, and he was never the same. He was never the same after that either.

And then, you know, back to the Blazers, just imagine three top 75 players. That would have been very, very hard to overcome. And I think unlike what we said, Boston, we wasn't sure. Right. with them

I'm sure that they would have they would have beaten the bulls at least twice not Jordan I'm not going to sit here like my premise my original premise was

would he have six I'm not going to turn around and say well he wouldn't have any because even though I don't because we're talking about the mid the early 90s what happened in the late 90s

that's a totally different animal that's a totally different thing you know most of the thing that we're talking about is the early 1990s, okay? And speaking of moving on to the early 1990 or back to the mid-80s, the 86 Rockets, that team was the next in line for the Los Angeles Lakers, in my opinion. They were the next team up in the West because you had not only Akeem Ojoin who was playing powerful, which was one of the

most athletic centers we had ever seen. Okay, along with him, you had the other Twin Tower in Ralph Samson, 7'4 who could put it on the ground, very athletic. He was in the dunk contest for crying out loud at 7-4, which looked ridiculous, by the way, but he was in it, you know. And then you had other like John Lucas, you know, and Rodney McCray, you know, and that team was really good. Craig Elo was on that team, a young Craig Elo before he went to Cleveland. Robert Reed, the grizzled veteran, you know, we're going to talk about Mitchell Wiggins and Louis Lloyd in a bit. And also your personal favorite, the icon himself, Granville Waiters. The icon.

George Jealous. And one thing about him that I'm going to say this, we're going to leave him alone. I did not realize that he just joined the league in 1984. I thought he was in the league since like the mid, the early 70s, the way he looked. You know, he was young. He was a young guy, you know, and he had that reverse fade, you know. It's not like I could talk, but still. He was like he had this balding head, and he looked like Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon.

And it was like, this guy is. 30 is like in his 40s. But no, he had only been in the heat joint. He came in the NBA from Ohio State, 1984. And I'm like, this is an old-looking dude, like a Greg Oden. You know? My dad used to call him granddad waiting. But, yeah, I mean, but you look at that lineup.

The 86 Rock is, of course, we all know what happened. The 86 Rock is they upset the Lake. on a miracle shot by Ralph Samson at the buzzer to claim the winning game five, you know, which was one, my best friend, David Bayshay, says that he refuses to watch that game because he grew up a Laker fan. And he said that's the only time in his life he ever rooted for the Celtics was in that finals. He hates the Celtics, but he hated the Rockets even more. Now, of course, I, now, of course, put this in the in the category of Irish. he's now a ticket holder of the Houston Rockets.

But anyway, that's another story. But you talk about this team, the ultimate, in my opinion, the ultimate flash in the Pan team, the Houston Rockets. Now, speaking of elder abuse, Kareem had won finals MVP the year before at age 38 and 85 over the Celtics, which meant he was 39 for the 86 season. And he had to go up against Ralph Sanzi and Akeem Olajuwon. By himself, his only help was Kurt Rabas. And I mean, an ancient Maurice Lucas.

I mean, you know, an ancient. I mean, and they just, they just tagged team on him. Like, they tag team on him. I don't know. You don't like, you don't like wrestling. But like they used to have a big team called the skyscrapers. They were dangerous. they inspired me in seeing dishes they both were six nine,

six, and that's how they were tag teaming on old man Kareem at that time, man. You know, and that was the thing. They basically destroyed Kareem in that series. You know, they could not handle, no one on the, really nobody on the Lakers could have handled the Kim, Elijah one, just a keen by himself, not to mention Ralph Samson at 7-4, you know, And that team was supposed to be the next team up.

And I think that the biggest is the biggest thing with that team, the reason why they couldn't put it all together had a lot of extenuating circumstances outside of their own control. You know, like the Celtics, they didn't have to deal with death, but they had to deal with suspensions, you know, of a team that was on the verge of becoming a great team. but unfortunately for them injuries and bad decision making led to their demise you know and just before we get into that just look at this for um for for say the 86 season

koreen i mean he was a keem at the time he would become hakeem a few years later yeah he was still he was 23 years old he was damn good, but he was in nowhere near polished to what he would ultimately become. This is still a havoc he caused. The man was good for 23.5 points a game. 11.5 rebounds.

3.4 blocks, two assists and two steals a game. Working in tandem with Ralph Samson, who was 25 years old, average 18.9 points a game, 11.1 boards a game, 3.6 assists a game, 1.3 steals a game, and 1.6 blocks a game. So between the two of them, that's five blocks a game, and that's not even factoring in all of the altered shots that they would generate. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that's just incredible production.

And it's just sad how, like you mentioned, when they lost in sixth to the Celtics, it was like, okay, it's okay. they're obviously the next guy's up. And then just as quickly as he came together, it fell apart just as quick. You know, the next season, they went 42 and 40, lost to the Sonics in the first round.

The second round in six, I think. Samson played 43 games due to injuries. And then, as you mentioned before, Mitchell Wiggins and Lewis Lloyd played 32 games apiece because in the middle of that year, they both got nailed with, I've always thought that they were lifetime, of suspensions.

They were two and a half year. So that's three, that's three, that's two starters. Yeah. And three guys total of your vital rotation. And Mitchell Wiggins was a vital part of that

cog of that, that Rockies team, because he was a solid bench player who came off the bench and gave them quality minutes. And one thing that you have to consider also with that Rock his team, and you just mentioned it.

their ages. Akeem was, what, 23? He was 23. Ralph was 25. So they were just getting into their careers, you know. And you had John Lucas, who was a veteran, who kept all of that together, who was, who had dealt with his own drug issues, you know. Yeah, he loved the bugger sugar at that time.

You know, for sure. Rodney McCray, which is another solid player for a long, time in the NBA mostly for the Rockets you know in the late 80s that earned the line is coming out of Louisville um and Alan level Robert Reed they were some really good Jim Peterson backup center um hard hat you know you know they were that that was a team that was set up they were set up coached by Bill Fitch now that's something to be said about Bill Fitch really quick wherever he goes as successful as that man has ever been in the NBA,

coaching going all the way back to his days with Cleveland in the Miracquare of Richfield, to winning a championship with the Celtics in 81. He wears out his welcome very quickly. He's one of the all-time greatest coaches in history of the NBA, but he coached in so many different places. And the reason why was because of his very abrasive coaching style. And I think one of the things that kind of,

think that would have dealt Houston to bad hand at that team state together was his coaching style because if you're so abrasive that it makes Larry Byrd saying, no, you're too rough, then that's saying something about Larry. That's saying something about Bill Fitch. They quit on them in 83. Yeah, he did. In the semis against the books, they, excuse me, they quit on them in 83 and got swept by the books, which led to his departure.

And just to go back to the ages, like the elder statesmen of this team were John Lucas, age 32, Robin Reed was 30. Rodney McCrae was 24. Both Wiggins and Lloyd were 26, and Allen level was 28. You know, so they were really set up. But to your point, Bill Fitch was very abrasive.

And, you know, we've all been round guys like, that my dad was an avid heart racing fan. He would hate he would literally like, you know I know in horse racing you would see the stretch. Down the stretch they're coming. The horse digging as deep as he can. But the

Jackie steady whipping him across the butt and he's giving him everything and sometimes depending on the personality of the horse you hit the horse one too many times. The horse is like, you know what? Forget it. Right. I quit. You know what I mean? And it appeared that Bill Fitch kind of had that

grinding, he grinds you down to enough that, you know, no matter how hard you play, how dedicated you are, it's never enough. And he just kind of, over time, just mentally and physically grinds you down to enough. Right. You know, what they have dealt, what they, you know, they would have been right at the top of their prime. Right around the time of Venus or Bonas would have been with the Blazers. That might have been, instead of we talking about the rivalry between the Bulls and Pistons at that time, it would have been, we might have been talking about

the Blazers' Rockets' rivalry of the early 90s. You know, late 80s, early 90s, of them knocking hands in the Western Conference Finals every year. You know, I mean, Ralph Samson, a healthy Ralph Samson

going up against our Vita Sabonis. Can you imagine that? That would have been, that would have been Michael Maher's versus Jason Voorhees. And I mean, Carnage just would have been, and I mean, Cornish just would have been everywhere, man.

And it would have been wonderful to see. I mean, it just, and we just got deprived of that due to extenuating circumstances. And I mean, just imagine, because, I mean, even like Elijah one, man, you know, you know, it's a lot of things you may do, but you're not going to fuck Elijah one. And then to speak of Elijah one as far as Bill Fitch is concerned,

you know, he, you know, everybody remembered this mild mansored and introspective and reflective guy once you rededicated himself

to Islam later in his career. At this time, no, he was none of that. None of that. Akeem Elijah won

before he became, before he reinduced himself to Islam and really became this really thoughtful, you know,

intellectual guy that we've all gotten to know and love over the last 30 years or whatever. The early part of his career, I mean, he was demanding trades. He was demanding to be traded out of Houston

if you could believe that. But that's true. He wanted out of Houston when all of this started to go sideways and right around the 90s, the early part of the 90s. He won it out of Houston because they felt like they wasn't building the team around the way that they should. And he let them know that publicly, you know. And I know that's kind of hard to believe from what you, for what people know about Akeem, but that's exactly what happened, you know.

But this, this team, you know, just was the ultimate flash in the pan. You know, it would have been fun to see like Akeem Olajuwon going head up with, with Buck Williams, with the Blazers, you know. Would that be a slavon knocker? You know, to your point, Elijah one was knocking people out. Because you remember in the game five, you mentioned that they, beat the Lakers. He got thrown out of that game because, you know, the ultimate unequal trade, Kurt Rambiz,

roughly up with his field, is that they got into a fight midway through the four. And, you know, both of them got throughout, if you're the Lakers, you definitely would take Kurt Rambis for a large one. Oh, Lajuan, obviously. You remember in the 86th fight, I want to say that was game four against the Celtics, he split Jared Seaston's eye wide open with a punch and didn't even get suspended. And then I know you know. Was that, was that Elijah one or was that, uh, Ralph Samson?

They're Ralph Samson. No, Ralph Samson. No, Elijah won't slug somebody in that game. And then I know you heard the story with him and Vernon Maxwell before. Yeah. When he was Seattle and he told, they were walking back and Vernon was frustrated and spit on the, spit on the court. And he told him to stop it.

And basically, Vernon was mad Max in his typical fashion, like, yep. And then when he got to the locker room, He slapped the taste out of Vernon back to him. You know, so he wasn't, he probably, he probably would have free will Bill Fitch. Oh, yeah, I think, I think that would have happened. I really do believe that would have happened. The old Elijah one, oh, yeah, you know, it would have been, you know,

it would have been the LaTrell Sprierreel, P.J. Carlissimo, but like, circa 1988, I believe so too Absolutely Absolutely You know But we're going to You know We're going to take a little quick

A little break here And coming up to close out the show It was a something A discovery that I made While researching this And we're going to talk about We're going to stay with the year of 1986 But what we're going to do

Is we're going to take a look at the draft of 1986 And some very interesting names that was in that draft of 1986. And we're going to close out of the show. We're going to send a shout out to the 1986 NBA draft right here on the historically speaking sports podcast right here on the Sports History Network.

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here on these Historically Speaking Sports podcast I'm Dana Auguster along with

Charles Combs My partner in crime my co-pilot on this remarkable podcast here on the Sports History Network. And we're going to close the show I was sending a shout out as we normally do. We're going to send a shout out to the 1986 NBA draft.

So a lot of this show was concentrated around 1986, roughly, from 86 on to the early part of the 90. But a lot of the stories generated as is genesis from this 1986 draft. and we want to get started and we want to talk about this draft right here. And while researching this, I realized that there was a lot of NBA stars that came out of this draft that was, became household name. Some of them became, you know, in our eyes, kind of like folk heroes. So this is what we have. Okay, we're going to start. Let's just talk about the top.

just, I'm just going to talk about the top 10 first, okay? The number one pick overall, Brad Dardy out of UNC, Cleveland Cavaliers, the centerpiece of that Cleveland Cavaliers team of the 1980s with, you know, coached by Lenny Wilkins, defeated, lost to the Michael Jordan Bulls in dramatic fashion a couple of years in a row. Lynn Byers went number two to Boston. And first of all, Chuck, Brad Dardy, when you think of Brad Dardy's name, you know, are you in your mind's eye? What do you see?

I see a very good player, not necessarily a dominant player, you know, not necessarily a dominant player. And if with the right team, he could help, like, you know, he had a cast around him at North Carolina. And then he kind of landed, he wound up in the perfect spot because the Sixers. you know, you know, they, they traded him, they traded him to Cleveland for Roy Hinson and somebody and then simultaneously traded Moses Malone to the bullets for Jeff Ruland, and they haven't been any good pretty much ever since. But he was a good player. I don't, and I know probably he was number one overland bias due to similar to the NFL when at that time, where they, when the NFL now places emphasis on the quarterback position. Yeah. You know, at that time, they placed more

emphasis referring to the NBA to the center position. To the big man, yeah. Yeah, so I'm thinking he went ahead of Lynn bias for that reason. But he was a very, he was a very good player. All-star level player. I wouldn't say he was a great center or anything like that. But by today's standards, he would be great. And, you know, career was kind of cut a little short due to back issues.

And, you know, kind of reinventing himself because I know he does commentary. for NASCAR these days. Actually, he was a NASCAR owner for a time. He owned a NASCAR team. I forgot who's the, who raced for him. I didn't know that. But he was an owner for a NASCAR team for a long time.

In fact, he did, I think he was like part of, 43 was his number, right? With the cavaliers. So he had the number 43 car, which of course is famous for, that was Richard Petty.

Yeah, that's Richard Petty's car. And so I think he was like part owner of that team and ran that team for a while, you know, so that you saw that a lot, you know, with, you know, Joe Gis famously left coaching and went to auto rate, went to NASCAR. Okay. Number two was Lynn Baez, we talked about him. Number three, for the Golden State Warriors Chris Washburn. You talk about, you know, that's like the Ryan Leaf, Rick Meyer of the NBA, was. Chris Washburn. Correct.

Just a total waste. And, you know, as you mentioned before, as we just talked about, they placed the extra emphasis on the big man at the time. And though he had some raw talent and he was a talented playoff as short, you know, he never really, he was good in college, but he didn't have, to my recollection, the dominance in college to warrant being picked that high. And then he promptly rewarded them with just two years and out of the deed because he had drug issues. And once he got paid, once he got paid, he didn't care either.

First three picks came out of the ACC, Brad Dordy, UNC, Lynn Byers, Maryland, and Chris Marshburn, NC State. Number four, the rifleman, Chuck Person. Yes, sir. You know, that was like the beginning. That was like Chuck Person was the centerpiece of the pre-region. Miller, Indiana Pacers. He was the centerpiece of that team.

Terrence Stansberry, I remember, was still on that team at that time? Was he still there? He was still there and two of my favorite players, man. Who did? Vern Fleming. Vern Fleming from Georgia from right here in Georgia.

That's right. And I'll take your wave back. LaSalle Toxic. That's it. Right. That was the way. That was the Blazers. That was the place.

That was when, wasn't Jack Ramsey to coach at that time? The Pacers? Yeah, right before then. I think, I remember Jack Ramsey was the coach of the Pacers in the mid-80s. But I'm trying to remember who was to coach at that time. Maybe Big Versaise, right? Yeah, it might have been Dick Versace, yeah. I think it was Big Versace.

Okay. Number five for the New York Knicks, Kenny Skywalker. the only thing I remember from him is that he won a dunk contest that was it and Chuck is just shaking his head back before I'm like oh my God just just just just boom you know he was okay in college but he just he was the

I went to Kentucky he was the proverbial tweener and at that time if you were tween between that three and four spot or that four and five you most of the time you were dead tweeners were dead in the water at that time if you didn't have it and he was he was the proverbial he had um um small forward size but with limited powerful with skills you know so exactly number six that was phoenix and they picked william bedford who i have no idea who that is william bedford he played at um memphis state he they made the was it the final four in 85? Yeah, they made the final four and 85. He and Keith Lee.

He was part of that team. He was a big man. He was a big man or whatever. He was good in college. Yeah. Number seven, Roy Tarkley from Dallas. Now, I remember Roy Tarkley. Baller.

Yeah. And also an element of what could have been, you know, because he had drug issues. You know, that Dallas, Mavericks team. People think that Dallas did really become good until like the early 2000s with Avery Johnson at the

code. No. In the mid to late 80s with, along with Roy Tarpley, you had Rolando Blackman, you had Mark Aguire, and of course, he's leaning in close. Chuck is leaning in close.

He's waiting for me to say Brad Davis, so I'm going to see it, Brad Davis. My man, Brad Davis, baby. One of my favorite playing of just scrappy. Yes, indeed. He's always scrappy. You know, you know. Chuck is leaning in.

Wait for me to say Brad Davis. And Derek Harper, of course. Derek Harper. I love Brad Davis, man. He come out of that bitch and he just scrappy, man. I love Brad Davis. And of course you can't, you can't say the Maverick at that time without Dinabell Mell Turpin.

You know, number eight, Cleveland took Ron Harper. you know, who played forever in TV. Very good player. Very, very good player. You know, Brad Sellers was drafted by, you know, Ron Harper drafted by the Cleveland Cavaliers, you know, when they had the orange uniforms. Remember that? When they were in orange uniforms? I remember that.

And speaking of Brad Sellers, you know, he was. He went to the next. He went the very next pick. Brad Sellers, he went to the Bulls, the very next pick. 30 years, probably 30 years ahead of his time. He would be perfectly suited. Like, the way they play now, he would be perfectly

suited, because he was kind of like a big, big man that could really shoot it. He was left hand, if I remember, he could really shoot it from outside and all of that. He'll perfectly be perfectly suited for today's game. Okay. And number 10, drafted by the San Antonio Spurs,

Johnny Dawkins from Duke. Put Duke on the map. Yeah, he was. was the one who actually put Duke on the map. Him and Tommy Amaker, him and Tommy Amaker, really put them on the map. Some others outside the top 10th, John Sally, went number 11th to Detroit. We talked about him a little bit with the, you know, LSU, John Williams, John Hot Plate Williams. John Hot Plate Williams, baby.

That's the all-time best. Is I either John Hot Plate Williams or Mel Dinebel Turpin, who never met a plate he wouldn't eat, Or even, you remember, my third nickname, I don't think he was in his draft, University of Houston, Greig, Cadillac Allison, and they call him Cadillac because he used to ride everywhere on the bicycle, man. You know, and another nickname, I was using research. You know, you had talked about John Williams, we had talked on the phone earlier this week. You know what was another nickname he had?

I thought it was funny since he went to LSU. What's another nickname? And it fits the Louisiana Purchase. They're probably calling it because he was as big as the Louisiana purchase. Boy, he could eat, boy.

I remember here with them bullets. Boy, he could, he and Lee Dale Elko's, boy. They both. Good Lord, man. You know, one of my all-time favorite players, college players, that is, was taking number 13 by

New Jersey Nets. Pearl Washington out of Syracuse. I loved Pearl Washington. Put the Big East on the map. Not just he, but they made, he was one of those cast of characters in the Big East at the time, along with Georgetown and the St. John's guys that made. Big East basically what the SEC has been in college football. They were doing that in college basketball back in the 80s. Exactly.

Other name, Walter Berry, we kind of discussed a little bit with Tr. He was a rookie in 1986 with the Fairblazers. He was the 14th pick overall. A name today that a lot of people know of today because of his son was drafted number 15, Dale Curry, drafted by the Utah Jazz, the son of Seth and Steph Curry. I mean, the father, I mean, of Steph Curry, drafted number 15 overall by the Utah Jazz. Other names, Scott Skiles, who still holds the race. record for the most assists in a single game. He was drafted number 22

by the Milwaukee Bucks. And he actually coached them for a while. Correct. He actually coached them for a while, you know, and rounding out the top, rounding out the first round was before I mentioned Arvita Sabonis, number 24. Correct. But then again, you get to the top, you get to the second round. Okay. Now, the NBA draft back then had seven rounds. You know, that's more than the NFL draft now. So this was, I mean, I never imagined that the NBA draft was really this long. But, you know, it used to be.

Yeah. You know, one of my all-time favorite players was the first pick of the second round. The Maveridge drafted them, man by the name of Mark Price. That doesn't have the first round easy. Yeah. Easy. Baller. Just certified baller man. And he basically was kind of Steve Nash before Steve Nash a little bit. Yes, he was. He was. He was, he was, you know, this very small dominion to point guard. He was, he was, you know, he was the one who made Georgia Tech Point Guard University. Correct. He was the beginning of that line of point guards that they've had Kenny, Kenny Anderson, Travis Bess, um, Stefan Marbury. He was. was the beginning of all of that.

Yes, he was. Number 27 by the Detroit Pistons, Dennis Rodman. The third pick in the second round. That was a total of the southeastern. That was a total of state. Southeastern Oklahoma State University. Next pick after that, Larry Christoiac. I love me some Larry Kostoyak.

He was never afraid to mix it up, man. No, no, it was. Johnny Newman, another player who played a long time in the NBA, you know, coming out of Richmond, drafted number 29 overall by the Cavaliers. Nate McMillan, which is one of the underrated players in the NBA, Nick McMillan for the Seattle Seahawks. A couple of more that I remember.

David Wingate, the teammate of Reggie Lewis and his high school teamate. He was drafted. Number 44 overall by the Sixers. And the round out, the round out the second, the two picks and the last, the last two picks of the second round. Jeff Harnasek from Iowa State talked about him. You know, he had a long career in the NBA as a player and as a coach. And Michael Jackson from Georgetown, not the singer. The band.

I just never. I don't want to get on a tangent, but I just never understood. And I understand that perhaps is due to academic standards, but I never understood why John Thompson would get these state-of-the-art big man and then go get these garbage guards.

Yeah. You remember him, you remember after Michael Jackson, you know, Joey Brown from New Orleans. Then it was, you know, like, and I know he wanted to get players that didn't have any problems. deferring to the big man, but how do you have people like Ewing Mutombo morning in one championship? That's just, it's very difficult to.

Especially in the age of basketball, that big man was the premium. You know, having a big man an all-time great big man was basically the corner of the rim at the time. and it just didn't work. I mean, you only went one championship, you know, and that was against, you know, and that was like the one championship that a lot of people, you think of the final four of the 80s from like between 1981 and say 1987, okay, you think back the championship that the Hoyas won in 84 is the one that nobody talks about. And the only reason why they even got that one.

it's because Clyde Drexler foregoed his senior year. Yes. Had he came back that year, they would have lost that one too. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

You know, one more I want to think and I think this one, I'd have no idea who he is. I never heard of him before, but I think it's one of the great names I've ever heard for a basketball player. The number 68 pick by the Milwaukee

Bucky Bugs, man, by name of Baskerville Holmes. Like, Arambeam. That is like the coolest thing. He sounded like he should be like a detective or something in Old England, you know. Like, you know, he should be like wearing a houndstooth hunting cap or something with a cape. You know, my name is Baskerville Holmes. You know? Baskerville Holmes are with a name like Basker, you think he was able to get some baskets.

You know what I mean? Like, man, get some buckets out here, my man. You know? But yeah, man, but this was a great, great exercise band that you came up with. I must admit, you know, these what is, these Jordanira, what else? I think it was just an outstanding, outstanding coping that you came up with. And kudos to you. This was a great show.

I appreciate it. And just to cap it off, where you would set the number of championships for Jordan, had this happened? I think with Jordan, I think he would have won the three. First of all, I don't think, you know, you have to think about this too. Would he have gone play baseball if he had not won

three in a row in the early 90s? Would he have gone play baseball? Well, if he didn't, if he say, I think that he probably would have won maybe in 93, he probably would have got through in 93 you know I don't think he would have won in 90 I think the Blazers would have got him in 90

in 91 I don't think they would have been made to the finals because you would have had to deal with the Celtics you know if they would have had but I think that you know they would have had bias and in Reggie Lewis but I think he would have won the 3P but I think he would have won

one and he would have won the one to one in 93 when he played the sons. I think he would have finally got through a 93. And by that time, the Houston Rockers would have been the Houston Rockers with a team. But I think he would have won four. Instead of the six, he would have won four. You know, I don't think, and I still say this to this day, that if you would have had the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen and the whole crew go against that Rockets team, they wouldn't have beat them.

Nobody, the bulls had nobody to contain Achim Elyne. No one. You know, Luke Long, no, nobody would have been able to handle a team. I agree. I would have capped it at four or two. And then if you remember, even the second rendition of Tom Johnovich Rockets, now this was merely the regular season. So, you know, you can't necessarily say that's a precursor to the playoffs.

But case in point, the right? Rockets were something like 12 and 4 against them. Yeah. Around that time, they used to beat them all of the time due to, you know, due to Elijah won. And then the fact that they had all of the, a bunch of good complimentary shooters around him and all of that. Oh, yeah, this is, this is, this is great.

That's what I think, man. Jordan would probably would have won four, you know, instead of the 60 he had, you know. It would have been a lot harder for him to find. finally get over the hump because you had to deal with, you know, the Lent, the Celtics. And then once you got past the Celtics, you had Arvita Sabonis and the Blazers waiting for him. So our Vita Sabon is in his prime, literally. Now, would he have had knee injuries or whatever?

That's who's to say. But a full strength of Vita subonis with a Clyde Drexler, with a Terry Porter. That's, you know, you know. Pretty formidable. That's really, really a formidable thing to go against, really truly. I think they would have probably gotten to, and then the Rockets probably would have wound up with about three. Because they would have got one of the two that they wound up getting. Yeah.

Probably like two others somewhere along the way. Right. But this is a great exercise, Chuck. I really like that. Yeah, I liked it too. I appreciate you for embracing it. and discussing it with me and helping us kind of flesh this thing out. And I hope everyone enjoyed it because I certainly did.

I certainly did. The research in this and what I found out and what, because every time I researched something, I learned something new. And I learned a lot in this, man. But once again, man, thank you for coming on. And I can thank everybody out there listening for taking time out of your busy day to take it to listen to us.

And you could check us out on different various platforms or wherever you get your favorite podcast. and we'll be right back to close out the show right after this. And folks, that will do it for this edition of the Historically Speakers Sports Podcast. Once again, I'd like to thank Charles Cohns, my co-hosts, my trustee co-hosts, for joining us once again on this episode. And thank you once again for joining us.

And this podcast, of course, comes to you from the Bill King Memorial Studio here in the sports wing of TM4 Enterprises, located in suburban Atlanta in the shadow of Stone Mountain. Once again, please don't forget to subscribe to the show to get new episodes whenever they are released. And always tell people about us, man. Tell your friends. Tell your coworkers, tell your neighbors. Hell, tell a pass-a-by on the street if you leave. You think they like sports history. And once again, thank you for joining us once again, and we'll see you next time.