History Daily - Saturday Matinee: People Hidden in History

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

On today’s Saturday Matinee, we hear one woman's story about her experience as a WWII Navy WAVES- Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Services. Link to People Hidden in History: https://peoplehiddeninhistory.com/ Support the show! Join Into History for ad-free listening and more. History Daily is a co-production of Airship and Noiser.Go to HistoryDaily.com for more history, daily.

Have you noticed how often history content is marketed to you as hidden or secret or newly revealed? I mean, I get it. If you're telling a story from history that is already pretty well known, you want to communicate that your telling is new. So it's the hidden history of Watergate or the secret history of D-Day, or even the real history of the Constitution, which sort of implies that whatever you've heard before isn't completely the truth. But there is a whole lot of secret, hidden, real history.

In fact, most of it is. The billions of ordinary lives that have made up the bulk of the human story are almost always hidden from us undocumented. But not uninteresting. Which is why I love the title of the podcast we're sharing on today's Saturday matinee, People Hidden in History. It reminds us that behind all the pivotal moments, the battles and conquests and crises of history

are fascinating people with dynamic stories of their own, like Gigi, one of the many World War II, U.S. Navy waves, women accepted for volunteer emergency service. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow People Hidden in History. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. Welcome, dear listeners, to the People Hidden in History podcast series. This is Kathleen Langone. I am excited to share the story of a Navy wave, of course from World War II, as told by her granddaughter and also some details from a diary this woman wrote in her later years. You'll hear about her life before enlisting, much about her life as a wave and nurse serving the

Navy, and then some about her adjustments to life after the war. Her family refers to this remarkable woman as Gigi, two letter G's, together since she's been a great grandmother for some time. Gigi's granddaughter, Larissa, or also known as History Dame, through her social media, has always been interested in history. She was the youngest in her family, providing unique experiences from older relatives that shaped her interest in her as an individual. She holds a master's in public administration and feels that public policy and history are closely intertwined. She created the History Dame profile in 2018 as an approach to share history in innovative ways. Larissa also volunteers for History Camp, a non-profit organization that brings history lovers together from all walks of life.

Welcome, Larissa, to the People Hidden in History podcast series. We're delighted to have you to talk to and to learn about your grandmother's diary and her experiences as a wave in World War II. And I just have to say, I first found out about her through your very nice recordings that you had out at your Twitter account. I think you had, was it about five or six excerpts from her diary? It actually totaled eight excerpts and then one extra episode to just kind of wrap everything up in terms of my memories of her and her life after the wave. So let's start a little bit with the history here. When did you find out about the diary?

And when did she actually write it? Did she write it after she had been a wave? Yeah. So it's an interesting story. I'm the youngest grandchild of three others. And I'm the youngest by far. So I was kind of late to learning about all of this. But one of my cousins initially had a school project.

And the school assignment was relating to something with World War II and things in that nature. So she approached our grandma. mother and asked her for some feedback and, you know, things that she can provide her. So she wrote a quick snippet of what she ended up titling, she wore the Navy Blue. And, you know, my cousin was able to turn that in. But then years later, in the 70s in retirement, she expanded on that as she began to write her memoirs. And then she also entered it into a local writing contest. I don't remember exactly what she was awarded with, but she did get some accolades from that contest as a result of she wore the navy blue. And she included other things in it as she expanded, which included

letters that she wrote home during the time. That wasn't initially in the diary. So she did add a lot of really interesting facets to it that really make the story that much more complete. That is great. And I just wanted to tell our listeners what the acronym Waves stand for. So W-A-V-E-S is an acronym for women accepted for volunteer emergency service. I did a little research, and I don't think that this really became official until July of 1942, where women could actually become officers in the Navy. Does that match your understanding? Yeah. So the waves was one of the later women's services groups that were created. I believe wax were on the earlier side, which was on the Army piece. The Navy was a little bit late to

creating services for women. And so, and that's how they created the waves. That was the only, branch within the Navy that the women can join. And officers didn't get added to that into what you just mentioned, which was late into 42. Great. I think that's really helpful for people to understand the context and the timing. So let's talk a little bit about your grandmother, and you call her affectionately, Gigi, we'll call her Gigi, how her life started. I believe she grew up in upstate New York. Let's talk a little bit about her childhood and beginning. Yeah, so she had a really interesting childhood growing up. So she was born in race in Rochester, New York, which is upstate New York, in 1924. And she had seven older siblings. And when I say older, I truly mean that the youngest

before her was six years older than her. So she came when her mom was already 42 and her father was around the same age. So if you think about that in 1924, it's pretty late for a family to be having another child. So she was exceptionally the oops child. But, As a result, she grew up on a farm that was about eight and a half to eight, nine acres of land. But she was relatively isolated. And she talks about this in her memoirs quite often. You know, her siblings were all much older. And she lived in an area where, you know, she couldn't just walk next door to play with the neighbor kid.

She was pretty much being raised by her mother on this farm and seeing her siblings go to school, go off, get careers, moved to the city of Rochester. and not have much engagement with kids her age, which I think shaped her as a person. She's always been kind of a more reserved and composed person that just has older interests. And she would work on this farm. Her father and her mother would own this farm. And her sisters, her older sisters, one became a teacher. Some of them got married. And so her kind of joy was seeing these sisters in the city of Rochester.

And when I say the city of Rochester at that time, it was still pretty small, but compared to being out in the farm, it was big to her. So that really shaped her life as well, watching her older siblings kind of have these ambitions and these lives outside of being children. And one of the things she writes that has always stood out for me was the day she got a bicycle. And that was like her ticket to freedom, you know. And it's so funny to read that because I think in today's world, we just don't realize how something simple as a bicycle can make child's world. But that was her way to get around. That was her way to get to school. That was a way to go see her older siblings who were already married and or had careers in the city.

And the other thing she writes about because this was the Depression era, she said that they were relatively poor. But if there were people who would drive to their farmhouse asking for handouts, her mother would always. have something for them. So they could see someone walking up the gravel path or the dirt path, and her mom would tell her to go inside, and together they would prepare some tray of food, and they would leave it on the porch for the passerby to take. And that really also just kind of struck a chord with me because it just reminds you of what people went through, but there was still this idea of, you know, you're never too poor, you're never too helpless to help somebody else who might be less fortunate. And that definitely played a role, I think,

her decisions on kind of things that she would do later in life. But she states, you know, they didn't have anything related to electricity or indoor plumbing. They didn't even have a radio or telephone. So they, I mean, she was, she was isolated in every aspect of that, being so young, being on a farm, and they just didn't have the ability to even have a radio. So when she went to the city and her sisters would have a radio, that was a big deal for her. You know, so she, she would spend a lot of the time with her older siblings and, and they really, shaped her life, I think. You know, what's interesting when you mentioned she didn't have a radio. I think of those FDR fireside chats. She may not have heard many of those unless she was with her

sisters. Like you said, that's very interesting. And she talked about Orphan Annie. That was one of the things that she liked to listen to when she had the opportunity. And that's something we associate with that era. But it was interesting to think that that was a real big tree, right? She had she had to go to someplace that had the radio to listen to that. And that was her version of entertainment. And she, you know, it was sparse and she couldn't get it all the time. But that was a real kind of area of enjoyment was to listen to Orphan Annie. So let's fast forward a little bit. Let's talk about high school and when she graduated. And I know when you and I talked a couple weeks ago about this interview, how did she see her options when she got out of high school? Yeah. So I went back through her

memoirs to refresh myself on this. She graduated in 1942. She wasn't sure of her plans. College wasn't really an option due to finances, but she had a sister who was a teacher and had offered to help pay for teachers' college, which she ended up turning down. I guess that just wasn't anything of interest to her. And then she had another sister who owned a beauty shop who at the time was pregnant in 1942. And so she ends up going to take classes at a local beauty college with the intention of running her sister's shop after the baby comes and she takes period of leave. So she gets qualified to do that. In the end, the sister just ends up closing down the shop during her maternity leave as opposed to leaving it open. So she ends up taking a job

for a period of time at what she doves an exclusive beauty shop. I'm not exactly sure how it was exclusive, but it was located on East Avenue. And East Avenue at the time, and it still is actually, was considered a top area in Rochester. And in fact, it was a location that my grandparents, because both my grandfather and my grandmother were from Rochester, both of them always aspired to live on East Avenue. That was like their top aspiration. And it took her almost her entire life,

but she currently now lives on East Avenue in Rochester, and took her to her 90s to get there. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed away during their move to East Avenue, so he never got to realize that dream. But that concept of living at East Avenue started with this beauty shop when she started working there. And that's just something that always been

in the back of her mind. That's what she saw as the ultimate place to live within Rochester. So do you think, Larissa, that she saw an ad or something or a pamphlet in terms about enlisting and becoming a wave? How do you think she saw this or what piqued her interest

in going in this direction? Yeah, so she talks about how the war raged on and she was very aware of what was happening. But I think the single most important factor to her wanting to join was that she was seeing the neighborhood kids being enlisted and drafted. So she's watching, you know, Billy or Joe or Charles or whoever that she was aware of within this town going away, one by one going away. And so I think that impacted her pretty greatly in this concept of service. And she does talk about when Pearl Harbor happened, she was still in high school at the time, but it, you know, it was talked about. Teachers were talking about it. And immediately after it happened, she saw, you know, a portion of her high school boys leave.

You know, they eventually, they enlisted and they left. They didn't wait for the draft. She started to think about being in the service because she's hearing that the military branches are opening up for women in services. and she decides to go into the Navy waves for two main reasons. One was the uniform. She thought it was the best looking. I just think that's so neat that she thought that would be a very spiffy, attractive uniform to wear.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite aspects as to why she picked it. And she just loved the uniform. She loved the colors and she loved how it looked. She also didn't want to have to go overseas. And the waves did not deploy their women volunteers and enlistees overseas like some of the other corps did. So that was the other second reason and probably the more practical one for her outside of the uniform choice.

And I think you had mentioned that she actually needed her father's permission as she was 20 years old at this point, but he had to approve or sign paperwork to allow her to do this, correct? Yeah, I asked her about that the last time I saw her, which was in April. And she couldn't quite remember why that was. but her guess was that because she was an unmarried woman. There was still that requirement that a man is giving her approval to join the armed forces. And so she said it took some convincing because he did not view a women's role in the military at all.

But he eventually came around and signed off on it so that she could enlist. You know, one of the things you said earlier that I think might have influenced her also was maybe the travel that could be possible to her to be away, even if it was just in the continental U.S. or whatever, I suspect that travel was a big incentive, too. Is that your sense also? Absolutely. She's, she end up, she's a woman who, like I said, is kind of reserved, but she definitely is someone who is very curious, has always been interested in some of the more cultural aspects of society like art or fine music. And I think she saw this as a way to travel the country in a way she probably never would have been able to because of fun. And I think, you know, a lot of people who come from small towns can relate to that. It's just, it's not always easy to get out of the small town. And all of her siblings were still within that town. So it was hard for her to leave family, but she was also doing something that no one else and her family was doing at the time.

Now, what year would this have all occurred? Was it in 43 or 44? It would have been in 44. Okay. And then what did she have to do in the way of training, unless she obviously eventually became an officer, correct? Yeah, so when she enlisted, it was spring of 44, and she got her first letter to go to boot camp at what was called Hunter College,

which was located in Bronx, New York. And this would have been in June of 1944 when she arrived. And Hunter College was the only location for boot camp for the wave, so everyone who enlisted in the waves ultimately had to go through Hunter College. So that was the starting point. And then in boot camp, they were able to sign up for specialty. So she decided to go into the hospital core. And so after this boot camp, which was for six weeks in New York summer, she was then sent

to the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. And that was in July of 1944, where she would do another eight weeks of training specialized to be in the hospital core. So if we put all those weeks together, that would have been about, what, 12 or 16 weeks of training? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, she started in June and she was finished, you know, an early fall. And where did she get deployed to? So once they finalized the hospital core training, she ended up getting her duty assignment to what is called Shoemaker, California.

I looked it up. I don't think what was there, once there is still there. but there was a naval hospital at Shoemaker, California. And prior to her deployment, she did get a 10-day liberty to go home. But once she got to Shoemaker, she was there until discharge in 1946. She was in California for two years, basically. That must have been such a change in adjustment for her to be away from home for a whole two years. And I know when we spoke earlier, this was a full medical hospital, right, in terms of supporting surgeries, et cetera.

Yeah, it was a full hospital. So they did surgeries. They had, you know, radiology department. You know, they had the wards where soldiers would recover. Essentially, the soldiers that he would come over were from the Navy or the Marine Corps. And so she talks about how since this, at this point is later in the war, it's a lot of people coming from Okinawa or, you know, some of those later campaigns. All of them were the Pacific Theater. She didn't, soldiers weren't coming over from the European Theater. So she was saying, basically, basically sailors and Marines who were in these, you know, later battles that were just horrific. And most of the time, you know, they were able to be stabilized wherever they were injured from, but they were coming to this hospital and still, a lot of them still needed major surgery. Now, you know, just like any other officer, they would have had breaks or shore leave. Where did she travel to when she was on effectively a shore leave? So Shoemaker was close enough to San Francisco so that they could take trips there. They actually at one point went to Yosemite as a trip.

And she would travel with her fellow female waves. So they, you know, it was just a giant group of women enjoying seeing California and these other parts. And oftentimes the hotels in these cities around these bases would have special rates for the enlisted. So she talked about how she was staying in top-notch hotels and seeing top-notch shows that, you know, otherwise would have been unaffordable. but because she was enlisted, she was able to get a special rate in CV. So somebody was an overnight trip. I mean, that was a several day trip. Some of these others were just for like a day trip where they had a Saturday or a Sunday Liberty

and they were able to just go and come back and then report to duty the next day. But she talks about them pretty fondly. And there's one photo of her that I used in one of my audio recordings that I absolutely loved because it's deter with two girls. walking down the steps in San Francisco. And they're in full uniform, but they have these amazing, you know, like just happiness on their faces, which it was really endearing to look at. And I think that she certainly felt she had economic freedom and were able to buy things,

maybe things she never could have bought back, shall we say, on the farm. Yeah, absolutely. She had more money than she ever had while she was enlisted. And she did a good job of saving a lot of it. She understood that wasn't going to be her career. So she knew she had a lot of time and it was paying very well. But she did treat herself to, you know, things that any young woman would want in terms of clothes, high heels and maybe some more fancy dresses that she normally wouldn't have bought previously. So it was kind of funny to read that because, you know, I knew her as a woman who was retired.

So in my mind, I that, you know, growing up, I just always associated her as a senior as opposed to someone who was once. 18, 19, 20 years old and wanting to look good and feel good and wear the latest fashions. So that was a really cool piece of this because it brought another layer to her that I just never really thought about because again, she was always just my grandmother in my eyes as opposed to someone who had this full, all-encompassing life as a female. Was there anything in her diary or any other information that she added where maybe, you know, she had to witness losing some patients, were there some difficult times? I assume there were.

I'm not sure if she documented those. Yeah, so that's not something she ever documented, and it's not something she ever really discusses, but I imagine that that occurred. One of the pieces that she does talk about is that she would sometimes sign up for a special assignment, and I don't know if they necessarily paid more or if she got some sort of a bonus out of it, but she would sign out for special assignment where she had to stay all night with a soldier or sailor who was in really, really bad shape. And so I can only imagine that some of them, unfortunately, didn't survive the night.

And she was there to, A, ensure that they're getting the medical treatment that they needed, but also to be a form of comfort for them in what potentially would be their last hours. But she never really discussed anyone specifically or how hard, you know, emotionally that was, other than just saying she would volunteer for these. And on a lighter note, I believe she was actually proposed to during this time. I don't think she took up on the proposal, but maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Yeah, so she was, which also kind of blew my mind because, you know, again, I didn't think of it of her in that way outside of my grandfather, but she was proposed to. She lists his name, but she doesn't talk about him in any other way beyond that.

And she doesn't really, she mentions the main reason why she said no is that she just wasn't ready. And I think there was also this aspect of despite enjoying her time there, her whole family was still back, you know, in New York. And maybe she felt the proposal would require a permanent move and that wasn't something she was willing to do. And I also suspect that it's possible this particular gentleman might have been pursuing a career in the Navy long term. And so maybe the aspect of being a military spouse wasn't something she wanted to do because she was living it and she understood how difficult that would have been. So she, you know, she turned them down and she moved back to New York after she was discharged. And as far as I know, that was the end of whatever that was. And that that was it.

So as you mentioned, this was for two years. Did she have to commit to two years with the military? I'm just wondering where the two years came in because she ended. in 1946, of course, after the war was over. But do you know what defined that two years? Yeah. So, you know, what's interesting is with men, it was typically longer than two years. But for her, it was a commitment of two years before she was allowed to be discharged.

I think that there was an opportunity for her to stay on if she wanted. But she was at that point ready to go home. She ended up having to do her for, you know, two years when she enlisted. So that was, that was a commitment thing. maybe we can talk a little bit about her life after those two years and acclimating back in New York State. She talks about it as a big adjustment. And it was surprising for me to hear that mainly because I've always associated the adjustment

from the men returning home from overseas. And I don't think I ever gave women who served enough credit because a lot of them, despite where they served or what they were doing, were being introduced to a life that they would have not had otherwise. They were doing experiences and living an independent life that came special with serving in the military. So it was an adjustment period for her for sure, especially since it was a small town. She missed her friends. She missed the ability to travel and go experience something new. I think she also really missed the work. I think she thought that work was very meaningful. And so she ends up coming back to New York State. She's away from her new friends. She does get to see

family and she realizes that she is no longer as independent as she was she was getting a stipend for her service so she was getting some money coming in but she would take some job working the radiology there was i think there's a doctor's office she ended up working with which worked directly in line with the training that she had just received from the navy and then about so she just turned in 46 she met my grandfather soon after and they courted for a period of time before getting married and once they got married, my dad was born a year later and then she became a state-home mom. And she was a state-home mom for many years because she didn't go back to work until both her sons, which her sons are about two years apart, were in junior high school. And I think you'd mentioned that after they got to be a little

bit older, she did do some training and enter back into the job market part-time? She did. She ended up becoming an administrator for the school system. And she did that for 17 years. She talks about how it just didn't pay a lot. So economically, it wasn't a major boost for the family financially. But she enjoyed the work. And her boss, apparently, she got very lucky and had a boss that was a phenomenal boss and mentor. And she speaks of him very fondly as someone who helped shape her life later in life in terms of just giving her some new experiences out, you know, after being home for so long. So she had a really good relationship. And that was really why she stayed. Because like I said, The pay at that time was not anything to write home about. So she stayed for 17 years, even after her sons were out of the school system, because she enjoyed who she was working with and the type of job she was doing. Hello, listeners. We took a pause from recording and talked about any final topics that Larissa wanted to cover.

And you'll hear about Gigi, more so in her later years, and also as a parent and seeing her son enlist. So back to Gigi's story. One of the things I wanted to talk about, or two things actually, so oddly enough, my grandparents, so they're both World War II Veterans. They ended up getting married on Veterans Day. And I never knew why that was, if it was like from, you know, a patriotism standpoint or anything. So I asked her recently because they never talked about it.

I just knew that their anniversary was Veterans Day. She told me that for sure it had nothing to do with patriotism. But my grandfather was an insurance agent and it was a day off. And so I think it was just pure convenience because it was one of the few days off, you know, in terms of, because we didn't, and still national holidays until the 80s, really, you know, like things like President's Day and things like that. So Veterans Day was like one of the few days off they had. And so that was their wedding date, which I think is kind of funny to just to think about

these two World War II veterans who pick Veterans Day as their anniversary simply for convenience. And then the other thing, she did a D.C. Honor Flight a few years back. At that point, she would have been in her 90s because she's 98 now. So she would have been in her early 90s. And it was the first time she ever participated in anything related to World War II veterans since getting out of the service. She just wasn't someone who did those kinds of things. You know, she wasn't going to to reunions or to clubs or anything like that or belong to organizations. A lot of them, of course, veteran organizations were for men, mostly. So she does this honor flight.

They come to D.C. They show the veterans at that time was a relatively new women, women's in military history, which is next to Arlington Cemetery. So they did Arlington Cemetery. They do this museum. And I was able to see her for a few hours during this trip. And I was at Arlington Cemetery with her. And just to see her in, at the time she was wearing a hat,

it was a garrison cap that they gave her that said World War II veteran. And her face and the pride that she had, it was the first time I ever saw that. And it really sunk in to this concept of how much this was important to her. Even though she doesn't boast about it, could tell how much pride she took in it. And to see this woman in military history museum, and it honors all the different branches and women who served throughout all these various wars and conflicts.

It was a really incredible experience. So upon her retirement, you also mentioned that she became a docent at a North Carolina museum. Do you get the sense that she was interested in history and did her interest in, and of course learning about her being a wave, influence you and your interest in history? Absolutely. So part of their retirement, my grandparents moved to. Carolina. They were done with upstate New York winters. They moved to North Carolina and she becomes a docent at what is called the Rinalda House. And the Rinalda House is a beautiful estate, but it's

mostly an art museum. So it has history aspects to it, but it also houses a lot of famous artwork, including the Dolly Madison portrait that I think most of us are most familiar with. So she absolutely loved her docent work there. She did it for a long period of time. And she's always had an interest in history. And I did not quite understand until I was probably fifth or sixth grade how much my grandparents played a role in World War II and how much World War II played a role in world history. So once I started to learn about it, that really helped spark the interest in history. My father is very interested in history, so I was always around it. But when I started to put the personal connections, in particular, my grandparents, that kind of unleashed this.

this other side of my historical interest. But yeah, she loves it and she loves art and she loves some of these finer things. And even today, so she's 98, when I saw her in April, she was telling me how she just finished a class that she took online relating to the Federalist Papers. So at 98, she's like still teaching herself and is still interested in these types of seminars, which is fantastic. That is just amazing. So Larissa, I was wondering, if you were at Gigi shared her experiences with her children or even when they were a little bit older, because sometimes I've seen that veterans from the wars do not share with their children, they just sort of want to shut it out. And also did either of her children go into military service?

So if you could talk about both those topics, that would be great. Of course. So my grandmother shared a little bit of it. She, out of the two of them, out of my grandfather, I should say, and her, she was, I think, the most kind of reserved with it, in part because she knew that she didn't serve in combat like my grandfather did or she didn't serve overseas like some others. She was always very humble about her service. She felt that she did her part, but she didn't do the part of maybe some of some of these other kind of bigger campaigns that you hear people talk about.

So my dad and his brother knew of her service, but it wasn't something that they even talked me about growing up. It actually took me a while before I even realized that she was a veteran. I knew my grandfather was, but it took me a little bit longer, maybe a few years after I found out about him that I even realized that she was. And my father was the one who enlisted. So it was him and his brother, and my father enlisted straight out of high school into the Marine Corps. This time, it was about 1968. And, you know, that was the height of the Vietnam War. And thankfully, he ended up, whatever test what the Marine Corps does. He knows taking the test and they assigned him to embassy guard duty. So he never went to Vietnam. But it was a struggle for his parents to accept the fact that he

willingly was going to enlist right after high school. And I think in part because in their minds, they thought we've made a lot of sacrifices to our service in the war to give you sons more opportunity so that you didn't have to enlist. And here you are enlisting. And so there, especially with my grandfather, there was some, there was some emotional. with that. But I think with her too, because her son, and she had seen these sailors and soldiers coming from war. You know, she was in the hospital. She saw what, what it looked like. So she was aware that there was a very rare possibility that he would be a similar position. That's very interesting. Just like you said, you know, she had seen injured soldiers, probably

seen some of them die and then having to deal with her son going off for service. But feeling very conflict because I'm sure she wanted him to serve the country, but she was a mother, you know, and that's very difficult. That's a great insight. Thank you for that. Larissa, this has been an absolutely wonderful interview. Thank you so much. And I look forward to maybe doing other historical things with you in the future. Thank you so much for having me and allowing her voice to kind of be shared outside of these recordings. She writes beautifully and she says it in a way that I can't, I could never replicate if it wasn't for being able to read what she left behind. So I'm very grateful for that.

And I'm very grateful for being on your podcast on that opportunity. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to this wonderful story of a woman who lived life to its fullest and served her country at a critical time in American history. One final note, dear listeners, I have just published a biography of, about a Gilded Age artist called Amalia Kusner. The title of the book is The miniature painter revealed, and she painted all the greats of the Gilded Age, the Asters, the Vanderbiltz, and also European and Russian royalty. Check out my website, www.cathleenlangone.com for more information about the book.