Hot Smart Rich with Maggie Sellers Reum - Maggie Sellers & Courtney Reum, Maggie's Boyfriend, On How To Heal From Your Breakup And Not Let Everything Else Fall Apart

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Maggie Sellers & Courtney Reum, Maggie's Boyfriend, On How To Heal From Your Breakup And Not Let Everything Else Fall Apart In this episode of Hot Smart Rich, I sit down with Courtney Reum—serial entrepreneur, co-founder of M13, investor, and best-selling author—who also happens to be my boyfriend. We’re diving deep into heartbreak, breakups, and healing, sharing our personal experiences and hard-earned lessons on love, self-growth, and moving forward. If you’ve ever felt lost after a relationship breakup, struggled to rebuild your confidence, or wondered how to navigate the healing process while balancing a demanding career, this episode is for you. What We Cover: 💔 How to move on from heartbreak—without losing yourself or your momentum. 🧠 The psychology of heartbreak—why it feels like physical pain and how to rewire your brain. 💡 Breakup mistakes to avoid—the habits that keep you stuck and how to break free. 👀 Rebuilding confidence after a breakup—how to focus on yourself, not your ex. ⚡ The truth about manifesting your next relationship—and what actually works. ❤️ Maggie’s perspective on navigating heartbreak, rebuilding confidence, and the mindset shifts that led to a healthy, fulfilling relationship as Courtney’s girlfriend. ❤️ Courtney’s perspective on what makes a healthy relationship and how men process heartbreak differently. If you’re going through heartbreak, feeling stuck in past relationships, or wondering when you’ll be ready for a new relationship, this episode is packed with real talk, emotional support, and actionable steps to help you move forward. 🎧 Tune in to Hot Smart Rich now! ✨CONNECT WITH MAGGIE SELLERS✨ 📲 Instagram:⁠@maggiesellers⁠ 🎥 TikTok:⁠@maggiesellers_⁠ – Where Maggie Sellers’ TikTok content is breaking down business, investing, and modern female empowerment. 📺 YouTube:⁠@hotsmartrich⁠ – Get insights on entrepreneurship, investing, and startup strategy. 💼 LinkedIn:⁠Maggie Sellers⁠ – See what’s trending in venture capital and startup investing. ✨CONNECT WITH COURTNEY REUM✨ 📲 Instagram:⁠@courtneyreum⁠ 💼 LinkedIn:⁠Courtney Reum⁠ – Follow his latest insights on startup investing and venture capital. ✨READ THE NEWSLETTER✨ 📰⁠HSR ICYMI⁠ – Stay ahead with consumer startup trends, business news, and investing insights. ✨SHOP HOT SMART RICH✨ 🛍⁠HSR Merch⁠ – Wear your ambition. 🛍⁠Shop My⁠ – Discover Maggie Sellers’ top startup-backed finds. 🛍⁠Amazon⁠ – Find must-have startup products curated by Maggie. ✨ABOUT MAGGIE SELLERS✨ Maggie Sellers is the founder of Hot Smart Rich, an investment and media company designed to empower women in business and entrepreneurship. A multi-hyphenate creator, in... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So let's get into it. All right. Well, Courtney Ream, are you ready to get hot, smart rich? I'm ready to do it again. I mean, you can always be more hot, more smart, and more rich. So yes, 1% continuous improvement every day. Well, your podcast episode was already the top performing one. So let's see if we can continue to run the first one up.

If you haven't tuned in to Courtney Ream coming on to the first one, make sure you go to that one first. but thank you so much for coming back on. Thank you for having me. Okay, so you're the first guest that I'm bringing back on for the second time, and there's a lot of reasons for that. I think, one, like, people have really given me some feedback that they want more of, like, a conversation and something that feels like you're asking me questions,

and there's literally nobody in the world minus Katie who I feel the most comfortable with other than you. So I'm hoping, like, just you even being here will let it just be more fluid. And then I also thought with Valentine's Day coming up, And I think with what everybody in the world yearns for being love, like I love to be able to talk about that. So I wanted to bring you back on. It's Valentine's Day in two days when this episode will come out.

So we can talk a little bit about how to heal from a breakup when you have a demanding life, demanding job. And there's just a lot of things going on. So I figured that we could give the audience or the listeners some sort of idea into like how you've recovered from breakups, how and what you are attracted to as a male. So if anybody's listening, that's single or that is, you know, sad about that or is learning to get or getting back into dating, they feel like they're leaving this episode

with a lot of hope and a lot of just encouragement in terms of how to focus on themselves versus like the other person. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. But I can see why I'm going to be asking you questions. I think you have a little more experience with this than I do, but let's see where we go. Okay. So let's just give a quick update, life update.

I love to do that first. just spent the month in Montana. We're so blessed and lucky to have been able to do that. How are you feeling being back in Los Angeles? I think I'm not someone that usually like kind of has a lot of mixed emotions. I'm lucky that I can usually either feel my emotions or they generally trend in one direction, you know, positive or negative. The month has been very mixed. You know, I think, of course, feel lucky that my house and your house was spared, although unfortunately my brother's house in Malibu was not, but it wasn't a primary residence. Many people have it much worse, so I'm not going to even say anything about that, but it was a little surreal

to watch a house that we put money into, burn on live TV. Beyond that, it was just an interesting mix between feeling like I want to stay around enough to help, but we had planned this thing for us to go away, and I never used the place we have in Montana, and wanting to do that will not feel like you're abandoning L.A. So coming back was really nice, but a little crazy, because everything kind of feels the same, which is jarring in some ways and different in some ways. It's really interesting, though, because Los Angeles is something that you and I have talked about a lot of like, do we want to live here? Do we not? And it's so interesting because I think in general, I think Los Angeles has gone through such like a weird time over the last few years,

even like whether it's nightlife or restaurants or like even just the vibe of things. And I feel like that word of the year phoenixing is so true, even although it's like the worst circumstances, like having a rebirth and just like a reorientation of what's important in Los Angeles. And it has been such a fragmented, scattered city that like I'm super hopeful or I feel a sense of energy coming back. Like it's such a beautiful day of just like an opportunity to be reborn. Which honestly brings me perfectly into what we're really going to talk about today, which is, I always say breakups or like, yes, it's the end of something, but it's the start of a new

beginning. So do you want to give the listeners a little bit of a back? to your dating history and maybe like some of your really bad breakups. Oh, I don't know if we have an, I'm older than you. I don't know if we have enough time to go through all my breakups. Yeah, just by, I thought we went to high school together, but according to the yearbook, we're a few years apart. It's, it's so hard to draw like a through line because I've been with people for like

mere months that I thought at the time I was heartbroken. And I've been with people for years where when it ended, I kind of felt ready to maybe not date the next day, but date relatively recent. after it. So I think it so depends where you're at, where the relationship ends. Like, we've all been in relationships where you should have gotten out of it a year earlier, so when you get out of it,

you feel more ready. One of my favorite lines about relationship is from the movie Can't Hardly Wait in the late 90s. They asked Jennifer Hewitt, Jennifer Love Hewitt, why she dates this guy who's just like horrible, older quarterback of the football team goes off to college, mistreats her, and she says, I know why I did it,

I just don't know why I did it so long, which is one of my favorite lines for relationships. We almost always know why we got into it. We almost always know what the spark was, whether it was just physical or other things. And then when you realize it's not your person or it's not what you're looking for, the other person usually knows, but sometimes you're just in it so much longer than you should. I think that's such a great point. And as we have a friend going through a breakup, that it's like there's no big reason. And that was like with my last relationship. Like there was no like major glaring one thing or like cheating or something that was like the catalyst to the

break up and I think sometimes that's actually harder for the other person because they are left wondering like what did I do and they almost like start to tear themselves apart thinking like what could I do to make myself better for that person versus just like what could I do to make myself better in general and I actually think for me one of the biggest things I wanted to start off this episode with was like this idea of this like revenge body or revenge life and it's something you and I talk about all the time because we always say to each other like our love to each other is not owned, it's loaned. So like you have to continue to put yourself into the best position that you can, the best like mental state, emotional state, physical state every single day because even when you

are engaged or you're married or you have children, like your love with somebody is not a guarantee. Like you have to keep putting in the effort and that's why they say like marriage is so much work. And I think this idea of like revenge body and these people that go on and they're like, I'm going to become the best version of myself like posting photos of them looking amazing. and on these trips and doing all the things that they said to their partner they were once going to do that they don't do. It's like, why did you not do that for the person that you were with? So I guess from like the guy's perspective for girls listening to this that are going through a breakup or a single and are just like doing those things like getting the revenge body, getting the revenge job, getting like the revenge, whatever, what would you say like the mindset shift needs to turn into to ultimately find somebody of value that is like what they're looking for? You know, I think it's like you said.

I do think most people mistake like, yes, marriage is a promise or a covenant or you kind of have contracts, if you will, spoken and unspoken, figurative and literal. And, you know, I think most people take it for granted, right? I can say this, like, lovingly being from, like, the Midwest. Most of my friends are very different, should we say, like, let's just even be superficial, like physically than they were, like, when they got married, guys and girls. and, you know, I think it's important to just discuss things. Like, hey, it's important to me. Like, I always joke, you know what you're getting because I'm older, so I'm taking care of myself. So chances that it goes totally sideways is now a little lower.

But it could happen. But it's like, oh, I would love you still. But of course, you know, I want someone who takes pride in their appearance, someone who's always learning all these things that there's no promises. But if you tell me you always want to be curious and grow, which are two of your better qualities. Like, I hope you mean that because all you're doing. then is like tricking the other person to something that you're not going to be. Like, don't promise you're going to quit smoking if that's never the plan. Don't promise you're going to live a certain life. That's never your plan. It's just, it's just never going to be a fit, I don't think.

Yeah. Have you gone through breakups where that's been something that people have like broken promises about? You know, if anything, it's actually been the opposite, right? There's, I think if you're with someone long enough, you can start to see, are they breaking promises, are they a different person, positively or negatively. When you're with someone six months or a year, even two years, I actually, in some ways feel bad because I think I've been with some people where you meet someone, you're smitten, you're like, you're beautiful, you're funny, or whatever, and you just start assigning magical qualities to them and you start jumping the chasm of, oh, because you have beautiful blue eyes, that must mean that you're smart. Those two things aren't related. You happen to be smart,

but I have dated people where I feel bad because I was looking at something else and I was blinded by certain things. And then I was trying to almost make them something they're not, which is super unfair to them. And I didn't realize I was doing it, but there was some things, of course, that I liked about them and was, there's just, it's a very hard thing to look back and go, oh, what should I just see how this evolves and how people grow versus trying to make someone they're not? And sometimes I think I've tried to give someone the space to grow and see what matriculates, what evolves and what doesn't. And sometimes I've just tried to make something someone they're not, and that's not really fair to them. That's such a great point, but you said something that I can't

not bounce to because this is actually one of the biggest tips I have for anybody that's listening that's going through a breakup. And I don't know. I actually want to hear your perspective after because I feel like girls do this from honestly the first date. So we make up fantasies about what the relationship could be. And like even last night when we were at dinner with our friends, we were saying like falling in love with potential is a really scary thing, whether it's like a job or a house or a relationship. Potential. Like the two scariest words I hear people use is potential and like smart. Yeah. Most of the smartest people I know have not. Not amount of time.

Hot, smart rich, baby. Yeah, but then you have to unpack what smart means. Yeah. Most of the smartest people that I grew up and went to Ivy League schools with have not done a fraction of what other people have done because smart in a vacuum is fairly useless as long as you're smart enough. Yeah. But potential.

Last night, we're saying some had potential. They're like in their 40s. Like, we're getting past the point of potential. We need to be talking about like doing, actuating. Yes. So there's a song that came out from Gracie Abrams and we're going to put it in the show notes. And it's basically about her falling in love, like a full. relationship with a man that she has literally never met. She's like seen him. And I even

remember like I think this is a girl thing, but we or maybe it's just a thing of. Gracie Abrams, let me interrupt because we're supposed to have more of a conversation here. She's really young, I think, right? Yeah. Like she could be my daughter. I don't know how old she was. I think I know she has like dark-haired singer. But like as they say, I do think it's true that generally guys fall in love with their eyes, girls fall in love with their ears. Weird. I live in this world where, like, girls are trying to behave like guys, which is scary, at least in places like L.A. But I think Gracie's so young, she's actually behaving like a guy because she's kind of like eating with her eyes rather than doing what I think women usually do, which is fall in love with their ears. But see, I don't think that's actually it.

I think it's a combination of both. Like, she's not falling in love with her eyes in terms of, like, what he looks like. It's more just like this idea of you see this person. They have all the qualities on paper that you think. And you fall in love with the idea and the fantasy of what it could be. and something that I think when you're going through the breakup is like not only are you actually having to redevelop neuropathways of like how you deal with trauma, how you go to bed every single night, like what are the actual routines and rituals that you now have to break up with when you end up ending your relationship. But the one thing that women don't do is I think they don't break up with the fantasy of what that relationship could be as well. So like my big tip for people listening is like I think it's so easy when you.

you've actually broken up to forget all of the bad things and only remember the good things. And that's like not breaking up with the fantasy. And so one of the things that I did actually to manifest you is somebody told me to get into my journal and basically write a page of like five years in the future of what our relationship was going to be like. Honestly, exactly what we're doing today to a T, honestly. And what somebody told me to do. And that was like to manifest you, to like bring that person to life as if it was already my own. And like I didn't have to like, think about it because it was already mine. So I think the same thing is true when you're going through a breakup and you start to

forget all of the reasons why it doesn't work. It's like you need to write five years into your journal how horrible that relationship would be based on the bad qualities. So let's say your partner is extremely jealous and is like making you do things that just feels like an invasion of privacy or an invasion of your personal space. That only gets worse. So it's like imagine five years down the line from now and you're like, my life feels like I'm trapped.

Like I feel like I don't have any personal space. I don't have my own train of thought. Like you have to really manifest what that bad future would be for you to remember all the reasons that like you don't actually want to be in that relationship. Does that make sense? For sure. I mean, we could go on a psychological thing here, but there's actually two parts to your memory.

They call it the actualizing self and you're remembering self. You and I could be at the beach on a gorgeous day, but you are just in a mood, which you are when you're on your period sometimes. Although you've been better. People need to hear the real stuff. PCOS. I didn't come back yet. PCOS.

I got to figure out my excuses. But I'm not going back a second time just to give people only the good stuff. Anyways. So you're in a mood. We're at the beach. It's a beautiful day. You are like on me like because you are a lot to handle even when you're not on your period. But you know, as we like to say, you're a lot, but I love all of your allotness.

So we're kind of going at it. You're giving me a hard time. Like, it's my Sunday. Like I want to relax. And then you ask someone to take a picture. We take a picture and it looks great. Like you look great in a bikinis. I've sucked in my stomach, all that stuff.

And then you go back and look at that picture and go, oh my God, look at that. We were at the beach. We look so good. We're so young and whatever. And it's like, no, no, hold on. If you actually remember, that was like a terrible day, but the picture memory kind of confuses you,

and those are two different things. We do that with a lot of things in life, but you go back and forget how it was or romanticize it. And I think for me in relationships, I for sure was like a little girl for a long time where I just had this like romanticized view of what it should really be. My parents are married 50 years.

parents are married 59 on one side, 66 on the other, all far from perfect, but all very good marriages. So I think you can be too precious or think it should be something else. And again, without going breakup by breakup, probably the person that I ended with on the worst terms, you know who you are out there. It's my sister's friend. But she, and listen, I did some stuff that I'm not proud of. I think she did some stuff that hopefully she's not proud of, but we bumped into each other here and there and record. I've met her. But she, I remember she was always like, look, this is not supposed to be easy. Like, that's a myth.

This is just deciding who you want to be a witness to your life and who you want to do the work with. And there's a lot of things that didn't jive about us. But like over 10 years later, her saying that resonates more and more. So one of the things that I've learned about girls is that we actually get over the relationship while we're in the relationship

because we will try everything to make it work. If you're the person that's ending up doing the breaking up, like you will try everything or at least I can speak for myself to try to make that work. So once it's, finally over. I'm the type of person where like I don't look back. I don't really have regrets because I know I gave every single thing that I had. Oh and in some ways you already tried a bunch of times. So it wasn't like the first time you tried to give it a chance again. Exactly. And I've never

been one of those people that breaks up, gets back together. It breaks up, gets back together. I actually don't think I've ever done that, minus my high school relationship that was super toxic. And I think I learned that lesson back then. I've kind of like that too though because some people I've dated where it was more about like the physical you know my friends be like oh are you still dating the Brazilian model are you still dating sleeping with them and and weirdly I'm kind of like I'm I'm a little bit like the yin and the yang too I think being a cancer where like when I'm done I'm done and I know even for me it like it you know kind of like crisscrosses the synapses if you keep sleeping together because it's just confusing so I don't think I've really ever done that either which I'm proud of a lot of

of things I'm not proud of. I'm proud of that. So let's just say like your last few relationships in the last five years, let's call it. Were you the one that did the breaking up or were you broken up with ever? I don't even know that actually. I think when you're younger, maybe it's a little badge that I've done almost all the breaking up. I have to really, I really have to think if anyone's broken up with me. I mean, the ones that I can think of broken up with me were ones that were not like my one-year girlfriend and whatever. It was like short-term things where I was kind of smitten and maybe in my mind I told myself, oh, they didn't get to see all my,

qualities are all my multifaceted this and that. But some of those kind of hurt the most because you didn't really get into it. Maybe I thought there was potential. Okay. So for the girls listening that have just been broken up with and feel the exact same way, like the man didn't get to see all their amazing qualities or like their potential, what are you saying to those women who feel heartbroken and cynical about dating and like they are never going to find their person right now?

Like what are the actionable steps that they can take to change their mindset and like put themselves back into a good headspace to start dating. Not a relationship therapist, especially for females, but I do think... But it's so important from the guys' perspective. I think it's just like an inside out thing. Like, I mean, real confidence is not fakable. And there's a lot of things I'm not, but I think I'm good at like really reading people. That's like one of my superpowers.

And I just meet so many people who are like false confidence or like confident when they're drunk or confident just because they have a pretty face or have this great body. But that's like not confidence. That's like a feature. like true confidence. And so I think you just have to get really comfortable with yourself. I mean, if I'm being honest about most relationships I've ended, I would say they ended for two reasons.

I already picked someone that wasn't the right fit. Maybe my fault, even though I didn't have bad intentions. I tried to make someone they're not. Or I really think as you get older, especially as you kind of get set in your ways, a lot of relationship is like, it's like some formula of like, 50% the person, but then probably 25% me and 25% the timing. And I've had people where I'm like, you could actually be the right person.

If this was India, the caste system, it was in a range mirrors, I'd be like, I hit the lottery. But we live in the world of paradox of choice and some choice is good and too much choice is bad. I wasn't in the right headspace. Or I wasn't good with what I was looking for. Or the just timing wasn't right because I was really trying to build something. And so, you know, us coming together, I think, is for sure you are the right person, but it's also I am much better with my 25% of myself and the timing is much better. Yeah.

But I think a question that I get all the time from girls is like, how do you know if you're with the right person or it's the right time? And I think like I got actually, I asked like some of the audience what they wanted to hear about in terms of this topic. And one of the questions was like, I'm dating a finance bro for five years. He's still not ready to get married. and like, do I stay and wait it out? Like he says it's going to be another year or two or do I end up leaving?

And so I think that that point of timing is so important. Like, what would you say to somebody like that after five years? Like, I get the finance job is so much. But it's like, is he ever really going to be ready? And obviously there's a lot of factors. But like, what does your gut say with something like that? You just said exactly what I was going to say, which is that it's so hard to be prescripted with this, right? Because it depends.

Like, you would, I would literally have to know the person, the guy, what kind of finance? Broughie is because it's such a general term. Is he 25 or is he? 50. I'm just kidding. 25 or 35. I mean, so like my answer for a lot of things that maybe you don't like when I say, but it's just like context matters. It always matters so much. I feel like almost all women actually have such a great gut instinct and you really have to try to like separate the signal from the noise and just sit. Like you are actually good at this. You just have like almost like sit in silence and just like listen to what your gut tells you and probably go with it. And if your gut tells you he's not ready and you break up with them, maybe there's a chance

where he's like, holy shit, I took this for granted. Am I allowed to swear on this? Yeah. It's a family program? Yeah. But you're like, maybe he's like, whoa, I took this for granted. And then it galvanizes something or makes him realize this is not a given, you know? So I think it's just about women know.

Women are one way where I'm like, women are so smart, so intuitive and they kind of know. Like, even when I've gone to break up with people or, like, something, I'm surprised how often, whether they're going to break up with me or not, it's like they know I'm going to break up with them. So they do it first? No, they didn't get it in first. I pulled the trigger first. But, like, they were already detaching too. And I was like, oh, they're going to be so heartbroken. And it turns out they were already pulling away because they felt that I was pulling away because no matter how great you are, like, you know, people want love.

People want something that feels like a partnership, not just like a one-way street. I think the biggest thing for me, at least, when you said all that, that keeps coming back to me. And I know I've said that's on other people's podcast. But when you're not sure if you're listening to this and you don't know if it's the one or you're like, my gut has told me to fall in love with the wrong people time and time again, I think the biggest change that I made. And I don't know if I'm ready to reveal like everything about my breakups, but I've had two, I would say, like, really big ones. And one of them was with somebody I was with for six years.

and then obviously my last engagement that I just called off a few years ago, like two years ago now, I never really asked myself this question when I got into the relationship. And I think I stopped trusting my gut, even though that's like one of the things I love about myself. And one of the questions I think everybody that's listening to this, whether you're in a relationship, you're single, you're in a situation, is really asking, not does he like me, which is I hear on TikTok all the time. Like, does he like me? I say like me. Then someone says, well, do I like him? The question you need to ask yourself

is do you like yourself when you're with that person? Because I never took a look at myself before, like, I never took a look at if I was the best version of myself with people because I was so worried about like, do I like him and his qualities and it fixated on the other person? And I think with you, as we were dating, and you saw this in my journal when we were even in Europe together for the first time, I asked myself questions like that all the time. Like, do I feel like confident? Do I feel like I can be funny? Do I feel like I can be stupid? Am I embarrassed, like, around him?

And it was always, like, asking how I felt going through the process. And I think so many women, when they're dating, they set themselves up to fail because they aren't asking themselves, like, am I the best version of myself? Can I be silly? Can I fail? Can I be vulnerable with this person? They're just so worried on being loved. And I think that goes back to, like, this idea of, like, we hear as women, if you're

in your late 20s or early 30s, like, there's nobody for you and you're old and like but i think it's also like it's still the the fundamental thing what i hear you saying is that everyone's a little different but for me it was about making sure it wasn't like necessarily changing what i was looking for of course there's a little bit of that but it's just like being solid with myself and not everyone has to be as solid with themselves as i think i want to be with myself but i think it's that because there's different attachment styles if you're with someone who has more of a attached attached style and the other person does and you're both aware of it and that's what you want. I don't know if that'll work,

but who am I to judge? But like, I'm a very independent person. I love my life. So now, if I'm not totally solid with myself and I want independence and I want some freedom, but I want to feel like freedom within the context of relationship, I have to really know what I want and really know what I'm looking for because I don't want this in mesh thing. We all know relationships of people who are, it's like really enmeshed and maybe it works for them. I don't think it would work for me. So I kind of have to know that about myself to make sure I don't get into those. A thousand percent. That's actually one of the other tips that I wrote down before. I was meditating on this episode is that when I went through a breakup where I didn't take the

time to fall in love with myself and like get hobbies again as an adult and like understand how I could self-soothe. Like that's a huge thing too is being able to calm your own nervous system down without feeling like you have to rely on somebody else all the time. Like I think the biggest tip that I did and I'm so grateful even though as people know if they listen to the first episode, you and and I were introduced, like, while I was not even out of my last relationship, right? And there could have been an old Maggie that would have been like, oh my God, he is on paper, everything that I'm looking for. Like, I'm just going to jump from one thing to the next. And if I'm being totally honest with myself and with you guys listening, it's like when I ended my last serious relationship before

my one two years ago, like I kind of did that. Not that I was looking to jump into a relationship, but I was definitely looking for validation. I was definitely looking to get my ego fed. I was downloading a dating app the day we broke up to like upload the hottest pictures of myself and like get dopamine hits from likes and like get and it's funny because when then guys would actually like ask me to go on dates I was that girl on Raya that was like well I don't actually want to go on a date like I just wanted the validation from like thinking that I'm pretty or whatever it is and I think the difference and why we're sitting here today and why it's like we have such a partnership with the capital P is like I didn't do that that time like I took the time to be like I am not okay like I need to fall in

love with myself and I know you always make fun of me for like my horse and like the kumbaya thing but it's like that centered me back to a place where I loved myself and like I thought my life was so full that I didn't need somebody but I was excited about the opportunity to maybe find somebody Amazon presents jeff versus taco truck salsa whether it's verde roha or the orange one for jeff trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids,

ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. I mean, I think what you did or that strategy is for sure the best for like long-term peace, inner peace, and like all that.

But I also think that doesn't have to be for everyone, but if I had to do one thing over again in general, like I said, I've had short ones where I was like broken, at least temporarily. I can't even imagine that. And I've had long ones, long ones where I felt ready to date the next day. But if I could do one thing, if I was going to prescribe one thing, I would just say, just slow everything down a little because like wait an extra day or week for the day

it won't kill you, doing whatever you're talking about doing. I mean, however long you do it for, to each their own, but just having a, it's that book. I love that. Anthony DeMello, awareness, just having awareness just slows it down. So, like, our friend who we're talking about who is just coming off a long relationship, he's, I think I'm proud of him because he hasn't jumped anything super aggressively or super physical, and it's so tempting as a guy to do it because it's there, it's easy, it's easy for girls to. What do you think about that saying, like, to get over somebody, get under somebody else? Is that true or false?

I think you butcher a little bit, you know, save a horse, ride a cowboy to get over someone, get under someone new. Isn't that what I said? Do you think that that work? for guys or no, it just, you leave feeling empty. If I had to say, I think it works more for guys than girls, I think, but I think it's probably destructive to both sexes, but more destructive to women immediately and more destructive to guys, like the fallout, the repercussions, right? Like, maybe not in that exact moment, but in the weeks or days to come.

I was going to wait to introduce this concept, but I think because you're lucky number three, like, I just want to, I want to brainstorm it live with people. So I want to do a theory called the three theory. And it's basically involving all threes. And you have to, when you're going through a breakup, wait 30 days to speak, talk to them, even look at their Instagram profile. Like that is considered a fault in this program. It would be like you have to wake 30 days to make sure that like you don't actually

entangle yourself with them again. Then I think there's a part of it when you are ready to start dating where you do the three date rule, where, or the three days rule, sorry, between dates. Like, I think when you meet somebody, like, the way I felt when I met you, it's like, you could have swept me off my feet so quickly. And to your point about slowing down, I think one of the things that was so amazing is, like, we waited in between dates and it was able to, like, mature and actually come to a place where I had time to, like, think about how I actually felt after the date.

So you need to wait at least three days before you see that person again. And this is something that girls, whenever the same guy? Same guy. Or a different guy? I think same guy. I think same guy. I don't think there's anything wrong with like going on a few dates with different people in the week. But I think this is what happens with girls. You go on an amazing first date. It's a Wednesday night because no one wants to give out their Friday or a Saturday like for a first date. It's amazing. The next day he's like, I want to see you again. What are you doing this weekend? Like you cannot see him on Friday night. You have to let it mature and actually just let things pace out. So that's the three day rule. Okay, I'd like to throw it through. I think I can mostly get with three. I know you like three is more than twos, but okay, I'll stick with threes.

I think the three day rule is pretty good, but I actually think it should apply to like, you can go have multiple dates in a week, but I do think you should give it some days in between because if you just line up five dates and five days, it's better than just like a Ryo or whatever dating app, swipe right, swipe right, swipe left. But it's some form of swipe right and swipe left. You don't even have time to like, be like, oh, that Tuesday one, what do I think of it? Then you're on to the Wednesday one. And then it's just like all mesh together.

Yeah. I think you should, I think you should try to give it a little space between the dates, too, to let it marinate. Okay, let's go continue on with the threes. Three hour rule. I don't think girls, and maybe this is something that's specific on the situation, but I don't think that it's a vibe when somebody texts you and you wait like until the next day or that night to respond back. I think the three hour rule is that like you have to respond. respond in three hours if you've seen your phone because it shows the other person like if you were

where were you when we first met on this rule. You were more like the three days more like the 30 no no no but I'm saying no I was like that until we met the minute that we met it was a very like instinctual attraction where I we've talked about that where I was like I am pursuing you I'm responding I never had to doubt it because of the way you acted on our dates of like booking the next ones and then the last one is like the three week rule and it's crazy, like looking back to my former relationships of, like, how quickly things moved. And, like, even our friend that's going through a breakup, like, they move so quickly. And I think the three-week rule is, like, don't do multiple big steps within a period of three weeks.

So as an example, you go on your first date, whatever, it's amazing. Don't meet each other's friends for three weeks after. See each other, do whatever, but, like, wait at least that three-week mark. From that then point, you have to wait three weeks to, like, meet each other's parents, if that's how quickly you want to be moving, or to go to their office and visit them, like the big steps. And that was- I see a TikTok coming where you actually lay out what the big steps are.

Because I'm not sure you go for me and the friends of me and the parents in three weeks. But yes, you should, the parents is probably further down. The friends are further up, but I agree. For women, and I can speak from experience, like there was somebody that I started seeing before you that, like, introduced me to his mom, let's call it like seven weeks in. And at the time, looking back, not even seven weeks, like three weeks in. I was like, oh my God, I'm meeting his mom.

He must be obsessed with me. And like, this is my husband. Like, you again, you're making up these fantasies in your head. He must be obsessed with me, so it must be my husband. What about you? What about what you want? That's what I'm saying. So this was the catalyst to me actually finding my person.

Long story short, I met his mother. It was like the most horrible experience of my life meeting his mom. Like, first of all, I open the, I knock on the door. She answers. And I'm like, hi. I brought her a non-alcoholic bottle of. wine because I know she didn't drink. And she's like, hi, you're Maggie. I'm like, yeah. She's like, oh, he's just upstairs. Like, why don't you come and hang out with me on the couch? Weird.

Like, you're not going to greet me at the door to meet your mom. Then we're sitting on the couch and I literally am talking to her for like 45 minutes until he decides to come downstairs with his pajamas on, put his feet on top of me, expect me to massage them in front of his mother. And it was in that moment where I was like... Certainly this guy must be like 23. Certainly this man is like 40. I think over 40. Actually, I think I know your time of it. Anyways. You've already given him enough airtime.

My point with the story is that because I was not falling in love with the fantasy, not falling in love with who he was on paper, I was looking at my situation and being like, this is not me. This does not make me happy. I'm not the best version of myself. I'm insecure. I'm feeling like I can't be confident.

I'm feeling like I'm not actually being respected or treated well. Like I am done with this. And I literally ended it the next day. And I think that is when the universe finally was like, Maggie has learned her lesson. Like she has learned that it is more important her happiness and her feeling comfortable and the best version of herself, I'm now going to give her the perfect person. And I think women that are listening to this that are like, there's obviously, you're not

going to find everything that you want in somebody. But like it should, at least with, I was literally but to say with you, I feel like it's pretty damn close. And I think it's like the especially as you get older, it's a little bit like the Robin Williams Speeds from Goodwill Hunting. like kind of the quirks or like the good stuff, right? Like I love when I make you snort because it means you're like genuinely so happy. Has anyone heard her snort?

But I also think it's like, you know, there's that fine line between like compromise because I am aware that the older you get and especially you have some measure of success or autonomy and you love your life, which I do. This is the only decision left that could make a good life even better. And it's probably the only big decision left that if I get it wrong makes life a little more complicated. You're not going to get it wrong. Okay.

Thank you for leaving. Okay, we can wrap that. But it's like, it's like, okay, so you have to compromise and be aware of those things. But by the same token, like, I think in different ways we both do lots of little quirky things. And I'm just not really willing to change them for anyone at this point. It's kind of like I'll walk around the house wearing goofy things or some of my biohacking things are just funny little things that I don't think they should be deal breakers. But someone should just go, oh, okay, that's him or that's her. Yeah.

We definitely can't wrap yet because there's something that's like really important to talk about that I don't see many podcast touching on. And it kind of hit me when I was at a conference last year and I had just called off my engagement and I was open about it on TikTok. And this male CEO comes up to me. He had just raised $18 million, I think actually from Tiger. And he comes up to me and he's like, oh, I've been wanting to meet you because I actually use his platform. And he was like, I know we could talk about a million things. We're supposed to be doing an influencer deal with you, but I really like would love to talk to you outside. And so we sit down outside outside of this conference and he's like, listen, I just raised $18 million.

I'm the CEO founder. My girlfriend of eight years just broke up with me. And I honestly don't know how to keep going. And I don't know how to motivate people. And I'm just feeling like I actually, like I can't continue on right now. And I'm just wondering what you did to be able to do that with so much pressure. And that, I think, I want to hear from your perspective, but also now being a manager, somebody goes through a divorce or a breakup. Like as the CEO founder, manager, what is the best way that employees should be discussing that, should be dealing with it?

Because you have to be able to talk to your boss about it. How should somebody go about that that's going through a breakup? First, I'm really curious to know, have you tracked this company still? Because I was going to make a joke about them. Yeah, by the way, he was just. Wait, wait, I was going to make a joke about them give money from Tiger and stuff because, you know, when Tiger actually used to invest. But just the fact, I thought the story was going to go, he like hit on you or something. And the fact that he pulled you aside and talked about that is impressive,

especially when, you know, as founders you all tend to put on the good face or talk about the good metrics and not the bad ones. So if I had to bet without knowing anything else, like, shows me like a really high EQ. I would think he has a much better shot to succeed than most. To answer your question, I think the days of like these like megalomaniac CEOs, like Travis from Uber, I know you're Travis, but is like it's just, Travis had a lot of really great qualities and he's super confident.

But the days of feeling like you have no blind spots and you can do it on your own and just follow me blindly, that's not how it works anymore. So actually showing you're a leader, male or female, who has feelings, who has emotions, who says I'm not good at this or I'm actually struggling with this. It just humanizes you and nobody's good at everything. So I think it's really important. Like there is overshering at work. There is like too much crying at work.

But there's not too much like good communication or just be like honest. I'm a little off this week and I'm dealing with it. I promise I'm going to get better. But like right now it's just really hard and I just want to tell you that. You know, we don't really do anymore, but we tried some of the touchy-feely stuff. Like you start with a meeting and you go, I'm a red, yellow green light. It's a little hokey, but it is interesting to know that I'm trying to convince you to do sign and we start the meeting. This is only for internal meetings and you're already an orange based on things going on,

or maybe even a red. So I love that. Today is not the day to try to convince her of this. Yeah. And so just like little check-ins and being honest. and I think it's great for, you know, culture and camarader without, I'm a little old school. I'm a believer like, I'm not trying to be best friends with any of my employees. Luckily, I enjoy all of them and I can do the airport beer test with them.

But, you know, we're working together and building something first and foremost. But I think it's really important that they have, they feel supportive. They have psychological and emotional safety. They feel like they can be honest. I mean, parents, not quite the right analogy, but it has to be a little bit like a parent. I want to be a parent where even if it's a little bit. a hard thing. Even if you're sharing something tough, I want your child to be able to come to you. And I want that with my employees. So do you think it's a good strategy? Like, let's role play a little

bit here. I work at your office and I'm going through the worst breakup of my life. I literally can knock it out of bed and I work remotely. Like I, what am I doing to help myself be able to get over it while like being coming to you and telling you what's going on? It all depends on your company structure. But I'm a big believer in like, like, just there are so many. problems that they get brought to like any any company leader, even division leader, manager every day. We just don't need people bringing problems with no solutions. So like coming to me like, I'm a mess.

This is never going to be whatever. It's just like it's all going out the window. Of course I would still want to listen and do what I couldn't support. But it's much better if you can do it to be like, it's going to probably be a really tough week for me. I am sorry if I'm off. Can I put this off for a week? I, my plan is to do this for myself and take the weekend and I'm pretty sure I'll be back next week.

Like, try to come up with something that, like, shows that you care enough about your company and your purpose within the company and your role within the company that you're not just like throwing all your responsibilities out the window while still taking care of yourself. So I kind of want to hear some balance if I can. But I think just being honest. I have two actionable things that I'd love to hear your thoughts on if I came to you as an employee and was like, I'm going through a breakup, blah, blah. I think if you work remotely especially, like that is a really dangerous position to be in because you're alone and you're in your thoughts and you can go and lie in your bed and like there's just so much distraction. So like for me. And it's harder to like volunteer. If like, you know, you have a remote company and like I've never actually met you in person. Then I'm like, why is the person's

eyes glassy? Why are they not on camera? And you just tell yourself stories that they're out, you know, skateboarding on the call. But really their eyes are bloodshot. So I think it's like once you go through it, the next day or that night, you, like, talk to your manager and like, this is what I'm going through. And I actually think a best step would be getting a co-working space if your office is remote for the next month. Because being around people where you have to get changed, if you're a woman, you're putting on makeup, you're doing your hair, you're like around people that are motivated and that are, like, encouraging you to keep going. I actually think getting a co-working space is amazing for a month or so. I think it's like the Tony Robbinger, the average of the five people you spend the most time

with. And so, you know, surround yourself with people that uplift you, inspire you, all that stuff. But I think, you know, and I've been on both sides is when you're experiencing like a traumatic event, not just a relationship, but a death, grief, something, my tendency is to go, I can fix it. I don't need anyone. I'm fine. And you just contract and shrink into your shell. And the hardest thing to do is to like actually share it with more people, which is why I think people have gravitated toward you because you've done that. But you have to force yourself to expand your social circle, in this case, social circle. Could mean your work circle, or could mean just literally being in the presence of other people at a co-working space. So I do think that's really important.

I also think another thing that I did when I went through a breakup was I started to take on different responsibilities. So I went to my manager and I was like, hey, I'm going through something. I'm actually going to have a little bit more time because relationships do take time. I've been really interested in this part of the business. Like would I be able to sit in on the meeting every single Thursday because I'm really interested in learning about that or like you're are you laughing at me? I'm laughing because I was just imagining you being my employee which would just be such a handful with your emotions but but you just did exactly what I said you gave the problem but you actually gave me a way that I wanted to help you because I care about you as an employee

but you even said I actually want to do more I actually want to come this meeting that very rarely happens like I very rarely see it happen that way like people don't want to want to take on more, people don't want to have more pressure, more responsibility. So the fact that you did both of those, I think is really good. Well, that's actually like I think for me when I went through calling off my engagement two years ago, it was a really weird time because like I said, like I had started growing a following and I think it was really hard for me and for my audience. And there's so many people that are day ones like listening to this. And I'm sure you can remember. And I haven't really ever talked about it. But there was a moment where it was like,

I went from wearing this beautiful ring and like living in this specific background that people have been used to with like day in the lives or even like the background of me filming to like all of a sudden I was with my family for like a month and a half in Miskoka and then I moved to Calabasas and there was a lot of comments that I would see of people being like if you're struggling or if things are going on like we want to hear about it and I just like wasn't ready yet and I think it's not really a typical work environment where it's like you can just be honest about what's going on it felt like a lot of pressure and it was really new for me to go through that but I can tell you like the relief I felt when I just made that. I will never forget, like, making that video and, like,

being honest about what I had been going through. HsR was, like, this calling and it brought me back to that girl that asked her boss to, like, take an extracurricular activity. You could call it at my role because it gave me a purpose and it gave me a why and it gave me something to, like, really throw myself into. And I think when somebody is going through a breakup, it's so easy to fixate on everything that you're not, everything that was wrong with you, everything that didn't work out, or just like analyze the relationship so much. And I think it's the time to be like, I'm going to just focus on myself and be really selfish.

And that can be focusing on things at work or that can be finding a hobby or starting your side hustle that you've wanted. I actually think it's retraining your brain around everything you're losing to everything you're gaining and don't take this the wrong way. But like I think women especially, they're like, I'm so sad to be single at my late 20s, early 30s. And I would always say, I'm so grateful I don't have to pick up after this person anymore. I'm so grateful the kitchen's not a mess that I have to do. I'm so grateful that I don't have to drive this person here. So now I pick up after you and clean the kitchen. Okay.

No. Kind of. You're like tidy, but we can talk about that offline. But I agree. I think one thing that people get confused. I only came around this last few years, you know, people are like, I want to be in balance, right? I want to like sleep eight hours, work eight hours, eight hours of Like you want to have this. But no, but I think I used to feel like that. And although I want to like draw this like over a long period time, I want to feel like I'm balanced, the best things usually happen when for a period you're out of balance. You want to get a promotion at work and move up.

You have to put in the time and grind. Maybe it's not sustainable for 20 years, but it's sustainable for like a year or something. Maybe you're in a relationship that's really important. You all of a sudden prioritize that. If I want to train to go play football to play soccer in Portugal, of course I can't keep doing what I'm doing the way I'm doing it. I have to like, you know, be out of balance because I'm doing four hours a day of training for that.

And so, you know, I was trying to get better at tennis now. And I actually have some tendonitis in my elbow, as I said, because I was playing more and I was getting better. But, you know, that's how you have to do it to make these jumps. You have to be out of balance only to come back in balance. So I think throw yourself into work, throw yourself into the healing and then come back into like a certain well-roundedness that will probably serve you. Do you, having been somebody that's gone through both breakups and loss and grief,

like do you feel like there's specific things that are like consistent around those experiences? You know, your life is defined by what you're willing to suffer for, you know? Because even when it looks like someone has this great life and these filtered pictures, as you know, I don't look much at social media, but it's like you feel like people have all these things or something. How does this person have it all? I mean, nobody does. We all have our insecurities. We all have our hardships.

they're not all equal. But I think, you know, suffering is part of the human condition. Like, you can go down, like, the Buddhist tenants and whatever else. Like, I have come to believe as hard as it is and not as much as it hurts. Like, if I tried to eliminate suffering for my life, you'd probably eliminate all the things that cause suffering, like really loving someone or really experience it. And so, like, you have to have felt that to feel the suffering of the loss. And it's hard.

I don't know that I ever want to be, like, just casual about it. but I think, yeah, what are you willing to suffer for? Or like, better to have loved and then suffer than, you know, never have loved at all. I think that was the scariest thing for me when I first started dating you is like I had really never put myself in a situation where somebody could hurt me. Like, I always had leverage over people or like you stack yourself up against somebody and you're like, I'm all these things and like they're lucky to have me. And I think you're the first person that I honestly dated where I was like,

you're so good enough for me that you could really hurt me. And like it was the first time in my life truly. And I was 31 when we met where it was like I risked. I thought everything like to be able to love somebody like you. And I was like I didn't have an answer or a ball, even though I would see psychics and be like, is he my husband? But like I didn't know at that point, you know? And I just was like it would be better for me to try this and try something different

and like be vulnerable and be a. afraid and I was really afraid, but I also felt this, like, trust that everything was going to work out because I had lost things before and whether it's friendships or even one of my closest friends passing away or people in my family, it's like, it really does make you who you are. And I think we've talked about this, but like without stories, without things that you've gone through, like, you don't actually have anything to offer in terms of perspective or, like, the growth that people go through. So I think for me, dating you was the first. time that it was honestly like the scariest thing of my life but it's also been the most rewarding

and I think for anybody that's listening that feels like your heart is broken and you don't know how you're ever going to put yourself in that situation again when you get through and you go through what you're feeling right now and you end up feeling whole with yourself first that feels amazing and that feels like you never thought you would get there and then once you're there life in the universe just keeps rewarding you where you like have this person that like gives you so much that you're like, thank God I put myself in the situation to get hurt because it's, it works out. Because you do have to really be brave.

You have to be brave. And I commend you because I think you were brave and courageous. I think you were more brave and more courageous in the beginning than I was. And you kind of, by taking those chances, kind of pulled me along until we were both on the same place. So I'm glad you did, but you were brave. Courtney Ream, I love you so much. Thanks for coming on.

I love you too, my little fish. Should we tell people why that? This is actually a last wrap-up good story about why you call me a fish. Have we, has Dr. C made it on the podcast yet? No. I don't know if I should tell the story. I think you should tell the story.

Okay, so Mr. Courtney Rame calls me a fish because basically throughout therapy, when we first started seeing each other, I was really intimidated that all of Courtney's ex-girlfriends happen to be these, like, beautiful models. And I started comparing myself to them and being like, I'm not this model. And I think I could have gone one of two ways. and been really like self-deprecating. And my therapist looked at me and he was like, Maggie, like, you're so much more than

a show pony. Like, you're so much more than what you look like. You have all of these other qualities that make you so incredibly hard to find. And there's show ponies and thoroughbreds. And there's like, even people sometimes say unicorns, but unicorns are not real things. And he's like, do you know what a Cylacanth is? And a Cilacanth is like an eighth fined fish that everybody thought was extinct and they ended up catching one and finding it, I think, off the coast of South Africa and

then actually one in the coast of Canada. And he goes, Celia Cants are extremely fucking rare, but they're real and they're just really hard to find. And I remember we were in Paris and you asked me like, you asked me to rate myself on the hot, smart ridge scale. And I basically like gave you this roundabout answer of like being an all-rounded person and having whatever and maybe not being like a 10 on hot or whatever like you were used to. And, and I was. And, You're quite hot. Thank you. And ever since then, you've started calling me your little fish, Celia Canth.

You are Celia Camp. Well, I love you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you, Dr. C, for coining that. I hope anybody that's listening to this that is struggling, like, we've all been there, and it gets so much better. And I hope that you just pick up the phone and call somebody that you're feeling safe with and get vulnerable and tell somebody how you feel because it definitely is worth it

to just reach out and ask for help when you need it. but yeah thank you so much for coming and tuning in again and if you haven't already please rate review and subscribe i'm so excited to have this new platform side note i actually feel i'm a lot more confident with tic talk now like i can be more myself because i have this other platform so i'm excited to keep investing into this hopefully we'll get a team in here because it's very hard doing it myself but thank you mr listen people because the more you listen the more she can get some help doing this if you knew what she was doing she's the producer the player coach talent. It's hard. It's hard. But I have the best teammate in the world sitting across from me.

And he's definitely going to be coming on a lot more because we love him. I was going to say, it feels like this isn't my last time. But it's not. Okay. Okay, love you guys. See you next week.