Hot Smart Rich with Maggie Sellers Reum - The Queer Eye Star Behind "The Biggest Celebrity Brand Failure of All Time!" Jonathan Van Ness

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

What happens when your celebrity brand collapses overnight? Jonathan Van Ness reveals the brutal truth behind fame, failure, and a $2B fallout.Jonathan Van Ness is the Emmy-winning host of Queer Eye, bestselling author of Over the Top and Love That Story, stand-up comedian, and founder of JVN Hair, one of the fastest-growing celebrity beauty brands—until it wasn’t. He explains: - Why JVN Hair became the fastest-growing brand… and then went bankrupt - How losing millions overnight changed his entire approach to money - What it feels like to carry the weight of a team and brand in crisis - The shocking health scare that left him at his lowest point- Why he fired his business team and finally took control - How the Windsong Global deal gave him equity and a second chance - The reality of building a celebrity brand without a safety net- His reflections on Queer Eye and fame - The role of therapy, resilience, and self-acceptance in rebuilding - Why his mission is still joy, curiosity, and making people feel beautifulChapters:00:00 Intro01:00 The Elephant in the Room03:00 JVN’s Spending Habits06:00 Turning Down a Seven Figure Deal08:00 Building JVN Hair From Scratch10:00 Early Red Flags at the Parent Company12:00 Finding Out About the Bankruptcy14:00 The Health Crisis That Broke Him16:00 How It Almost All Fell Apart18:00 Talking to Other Founders in the Same Situation20:00 What Really Happened With Equity22:00 The Moment He Realized the Brand Might Die24:00 Transitioning to Windsong Global26:00 How the Bankruptcy Impacted Sales28:00 Rebuilding His Personal Money Mindset30:00 Firing His Business Team32:00 The New Deal Structure and Getting Equity34:00 Saving the Team and the Products36:00 The Hard Reality of the Transition Year38:00 Filming Queer Eye During a Crisis40:00 Public Backlash and Political Pressure42:00 Picking Himself Back Up44:00 Entering Ulta and Facing Controversy46:00 Growing Up Queer in a Conservative Town48:00 The Transformations That Changed Him50:00 Winning the Emmy and What’s Next52:00 Mission, Purpose and the Future of JVN HairHot Smart Rich: Join 250,000+ angels and subscribe to the Hot Smart Rich newsletter: https://hotsmartrich.com/subscribe Become an HSR Angel in the ⁠Global HSR WhatsApp channel: https://shorturl.at/xzLPm Buy the Hot Smart Rich Money Mindset here: https://shorturl.at/pJWLc Buy Hot Smart Rich merch: https://hotsmartrich.shop/YouTube: https://shorturl.at/IXXFZInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/hotsmartrich/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hotsmartrichMaggie Sellers Reum:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maggiesellers/Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@maggiesellers_LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sellersmaggie/Locker: https://www.wantlocker.com/users/maggiesellersShopMy: https://shopmy.us/maggiesellersAmazon Storefront: https://www.amazon.com/shop/maggiesellers Jonathan Van Ness:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jvn/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jvn_official?lang=enPodcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/getting-better-with-jonathan-van-ness/id1068563276Website: hhttps://jonathanvanness.com/ Sponsors:Recharge - get 90 days free - https://getrecharge.com/lp3/hot-smart-rich/Hot Smart Rich is your place to hear unfiltered conversations with the people shaping the future of culture, creators, startups and community. Hosted by Maggie Sellers Reum, investor and media powerhouse, and guests breaking the mold, you’ll get the real deal as it relates to navigating the startup fast lane, leveling up your life or becoming your hottest, smartest, richest self. New episodes weekly on Wednesdays. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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biggest celebrity brand failure of all time not fun I at one point called your brand my favorite celebrity beauty brand there was a huge announcement that it was going bankrupt did you have a gut instinct that things were not right I think I can say this I don't want to get canceled I think my whole experience, Amherst, I think I'd been paid on time, like, no times. When they filed, I was like, they owed me a lot of money. That means I'm not going to get paid. Like, how did it get to that point? JV. and Hare didn't go bankrupt. Amherst went bankrupt.

Amherst had almost $2 billion of it at the time. The reason that I didn't have equity is because I didn't invest a cent in it. I didn't know if we were going to find a home or if we were going to have a future. I literally grew a second fucking asshole. I was like so sick, like so sick. Like there were nights where like I would literally wake up yelling people's names. So you'll love this part of the story. I fired my business team.

What happens then? I just really could not catch a break in 2024. So I've seen your video. I do really want you to know that it came from a place of not trying to tear it down. Can I tell the only part that really hurt my feelings that I really didn't like? Yeah. In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it.

Holy shit. JVN. Are you ready to get hot-smart rich? I'm so ready to get hot-smart rich. I feel like you already are hot-smart-rich. I'm just hot and smart. Okay. We're on the road to rich, which we're going to get in today.

Yeah. So this is going to be probably the most intense interview I've ever done. Scared. I at one point called your brand my favorite celebrity beauty brand and potentially the biggest celebrity beauty brand failure. So this is going to be a lot, but let's just start how we always do with consumption habits. What is the last thing that you put on your credit card? Um, a bag. Which bag?

Um, a Birken, a Birken. Yeah. The next question I always ask is, what is the most expensive thing you bought, but that would be it? Okay. Yeah, right? No. Oh my God, what's the most expensive thing? Jewelry, for sure.

Or art. Okay. And what's the time frame of this? Um, well, I like to do this thing where when I make money, I let it on fire and throw it out the window. But I would actually say art and Hermes actually keep their value private. I do. I have made good investment. Okay.

Yes. And is this you using your gut instinct? Do you have a team behind you that's helping you with this? I do have a financial team, but they're usually dealing with my gut instinct. Okay. You know what I'm saying? They're like cleaning up the mess. Yes.

Okay. Fair. So like I said, I at one point fell in love with your brand. This is like early 2023. And by August 20203, there was a huge announcement that it was going bankrupt under Amherst, your parent company. Yes. So I want to go back to the beginning of the beginning of. JVN hair, and let's, like, tell this full story.

So how long had you been in the public eye before you were approached by Amherst to start a brand? Well, I approached Amherst to start a brand. Okay. And I had been queer. I came out in February of 2018. The end of 2019, I had this idea to make a line based off of goal versus hair type. Okay.

So that was like, end of 2019. I started, like, sketching out and having some ideas. And then I was looking for a company to partner with that would let me use glass and aluminum. And I pitched to like a lot of other like incubators. And once I got to the glass and aluminum part, it like, they're like, oh. And then they're like, I'm sure we can do something else. I was like, no, I really am like committed to that part. So then I had been working with biosons for like a year. And so then I was like, oh my God, was the partner right below like right under my nose this whole time? Like, why am I looking at all these other people? Like maybe it could start with

whoever owns biosons. And so that's how I got the idea to pitch amorous on JVN hair. Okay. So you pitch amorous on JVN hair, but you had mentioned on on Glacangeles that you had a seven-figure opportunity as an ambassador with a very reputable handbrand. Yes. So why would you have turned that down to start a brand with Amherst? Like what was fueling that decision? Well, I just thought it was kind of like this interlude of Solange's album, a seat at the table.

There's this interlude. And this guy's like, if I get offered this much for this, then how much could I really be worth if I just like invested in myself? I'm paraphrasing there. Okay. But I was like, if this company thinks that I could be worth that, like I just been doing so many endorsements. And I was like, I want to make a future for myself. And so then I thought, I had some ideas that I thought could be interesting to like infuse into that partnership.

But then I was like, what are the chances that they're going to like listen to me in that sort of way? And then I kind of investigated it a little bit further. And I was like, I don't think that it will be responsive in that way. So then that's when I was like, I want to do this for myself. I want to do this for my future. And I love doing hair. And so I figured like let me create something that I can grow with for a really long time. At that time, though, you had mentioned like you did not want to get involved in things like ingredient sourcing and finances. So when you thought about what your role would look like, like what was your ideal role?

And was that actually what you ended up doing when you were under Amheras? When I was really passionate about as formulas, how something works. And then, like, naming conventions, casting, social. But I was, like, not, oh, and then packaging. Like, I really wanted, like, glass and aluminum. But I didn't mind, like, how we get that or, like, I didn't know about any of that stuff. I'm very, like, an eternal student. Like, I love to learn.

So whether we were at Ammer. or where we've been since, I just have always been, like, in there. I just, like, want to learn. I want to ask questions. Are you, before you decided to this brand, are you just, like, really passionate about sustainability or the environment, or where did that call

to do something different in the hair care space come from? Well, I got my start at a Veda. Okay. So I really drank that Kool-Aid. Like, I guzzled that Kool-Aid, like, it was running away from me. Like, I went to the Institute of Minneapolis when I was 18. I graduated and I was 19. And even before that, I'm from a really little town in Illinois.

And I remember my mom. taking me to the St. Louis Frontenac Mall to this Avata store there when I was like 11. And I was like, oh my God, these shammies, like, what is fair trade? I just became obsessed. And then later, we went on a family vacation to the Mall of America, like a few years later, where I notoriously, it's like a funny family story. I got lost and they found me at a bath and bodyworks, like, in a corner, like, just like reading ingredient lists on everything. So from a very early age, I thought, like, ingredient stories, how to use something.

and just kind of connecting with yourself through beauty was always like really inspiring to me. So at this time, you're building a brand under Amreras. Things are going really well for the first, how long of this journey? Probably up until that day in 2023, except, well, yeah. So we launched in like August of 2021 and things are going really good and expanding, making new products. And then it was like the day of this. The announcement, I think, is when we found out if my memory serves me correctly. I think in my whole experience, Amaris, I think I'd been paid on time, like, no times.

Like, at no time did I ever get paid on time. They also had, like, a really long race period in their pay schedule, which I was, like, in trust. But that happens in the industry a lot. So that didn't necessarily, like, raise alarm bells. But then when they filed, I was like, oh, no, they owed me a lot of money. Did you have a gut instinct that things were not right up until that day? No, there were things that happened. I didn't think it was bankruptcy or not having money, but I certainly thought, like,

there would be photos shoots or we would do these photoshoots, and then, like, we couldn't use the images because, like, the team hadn't been paid yet. And I'd be like, you guys, this, like, really affects our ability to do things down the road if we can't, like, get these selects and do what we need to do with our retailers and do what we need to do on our website. Like, what's the point in investing all this photo shoot if we don't, like, what's happening. Right.

So that, but then there's always like, there's always like a reason or there's always like a chat. But the interesting thing, not interesting, ha ha, but like interesting is that like

our insular JVN hair team, we can like submit all the invoices that we wanted to, but like a different team pays for it. There was like a shared team that like paid for like everyone's everything. So that was like really frustrating because whether it was paying for something

or choosing like where we source something or how we stored something for our brand, we didn't have control over that. over that. So that was like really difficult. For sure, because also like you as the face are who people are coming to and being like JVN hasn't paid me when really your hands are tied being like it's not me. It's this controlled group that's doing it for all of Amherst's brands. Did you ever have situations where people were like coming to you being like, like explain one of those to me? Like getting a call from someone who I really, really respect who's like family member had like done

merch for us and was like, we haven't been paid for like a year. What do I do? And I was like, oh my God. So it's not just me. Interesting. Because I'm going to ask you to have question. So when you first joined Amherst, did you have equity in the brand? No. Looking back, naming the brand after yourself without ownership in that, is that a decision that you felt like you made too quickly or you just didn't know the information or what led you there? So picture it. It's COVID. We're picking the brand. It's like me and that agency.

There's this like pitch deck. And it's like we could name it. that has nothing to do with you. Like, you know, just like a name. Like pretty hair. Right. Red shirt. Yeah. You could do one that's more named off of you.

Or you could do one that's like, they're just like, and so I was like sitting at my desk and I was like, JBN seems fun. Okay. Okay. So that's how much we did it. There's a lot of like think now or like do it now and then deal with the ramifications later, which is not that fun. There's so many things that I would do differently with what I know now had I known it then.

Yeah. And your team around you at the time, they weren't like JVN, don't name this brand after yourself if you don't have ownership in it. Yeah, no. They didn't. No. Okay. So things go incredibly well. Like you guys are the fastest growing hair care brand for a long period of time, two years.

Up until that day, you're like, wait, I'm finding out that the parent company is going bankrupt. Can you take me back to that moment where you actually found out? I can't remember exactly where I was, but I just remember thinking like, okay, I wonder if they're going to sell all of the brands or like some of the brands. Like, I wonder what they're going to do. And then I was like, it wasn't for like an hour or two where I was like, wait, that means I'm not going to get paid. Like I didn't realize.

I was like, wait, that sucks. So that was just like a lot to take in. And then figuring out from that point, like talking to my team, it's like they're not bankruptcy lawyers, they're entertainment lawyers, whom, by the way, none of my team had ever built a beauty brand before. For sure. This is also new. Yeah, with like any of their clients, but this is their first time in beauty. And also, the personalities, the amorous were like, a lot. Well, and I feel like everyone can relate to that where if you have an expert that is, like, built all of these global brands and they're telling you this is the way things are doing,

it's honestly hard to question that because you're being put in this position where you're looking up and being like, teach me your ways. It's very hard to stand up for yourself in that moment. It was in that couple days process where my team and I were like, wait, we're going to have to get a bankruptcy lawyer. Like, because, you know, you don't do that law. So, like, that's like an added expense as I'm realizing that like I'm not going to have this large chunk of line item in my budget. And it's not just as easy as like I couldn't have the people that were representing amorous. Like, you know, so just finding that I was like going to have this huge shortfall of money as I'm like also needing to find like a new team to kind of help me navigate that situation. And I was like, I mean, I'm a comedian.

So I was like on tour that entire time. I'm like on stage doing meet and greets. From the time that the bankruptcy happened to when we were sold, we like couldn't do anything. It was like the bank that's like representing Amaris is the one that's like taking all the meetings and finding all the buyers and kind of setting everything up. So it was a really like powerless situation to find yourself in because it's like it's not like I could just like go out and find somebody. It's like they needed to do it. And it wasn't really until the 11th hour. It went from being this like, don't worry.

to like, oh God, this is bad. So there was like a good like two weeks there where I was like, I didn't know if we were going to find a home or if we were going to have a future, which was so sad. And scary. Yeah. Did you get told by the company internally, or did you have to find out like everyone else did through the press?

We found out, I mean, I think that all happened on like the same day. Wow. It was like really close. I mean, there was like murmurings of like, you know, is this a possibility? Could it happen? But we didn't know if it was like if they would sell some of the brands or if if they would like, we just didn't exactly know what was going to.

So that was all pretty, really close together. So you're on tour, you're dealing with a million things. It's not like you're just a founder. You have a lot of things going on. When that gets announced and then you do end up selling to Winsong Global in December of 2023, like, what was that three-month period or four-month period like? Well, not to bring it up, but I literally, my body, like, there is this thing called a fistula where if your butt gets like your butt gland can get infected and it literally burrows a tunnel

out of your body. I had, I developed a fever. I was like so sick. Like so sick and I was like, this must be COVID. Do I have pneumonia? What's going on? And then like I bent over in the mirror and I looked and I had like a literal second butthole. So that's how I was doing. Oh God. I literally grew a second fucking asshole. So I'm seeing your video with two fucking assholes. Biggest celebrity brand failure of all time with my gaping two assholes. Not fun. So it was just all around. Not great.

Poor Teresa over here, our president, had to, I literally found it as she was walking in the door for us to go into our like Star Trek shoulder to shoulder in my office like, kukkak, kukkah, Zoom interview. It was like, Teresa and I were like shoulder to shoulder for like 10 days in like a, it felt like a like a crisis room. Yeah. A beauty crisis room. Yeah.

So emotionally not great. There were nights where, like, I would literally wake up, like, yelling people's names that were on our team because I was so concerned. Because there was people who I've worked with for three years at that point. There was people who I'd known for decades that I worked with through, you know, friends. It just was devastating. Yeah. So, like, people's livelihoods, feeling like I was responsible for that. Also, like, the embarrassment, the feeling of, like, I trusted people that totally, you know.

Led you astray. Yeah. So it was, like, a lot to deal with. So for the first half of that time from like August to December, it was like, we'll find a buyer. Everything will be fine. Then from like around like mid-October to like December, it was like not sure. And I just think like numbers were weird. And I didn't.

And it's like I never was like in the P&Ls. I learned what a P&L was through that process. But I was never in that, you know, prior. So then it got to like the like the last round where it was like, wait, like, what's going to happen. Because, like, I didn't want to go if it was going to be someone that was going to, like, compromise our integrity, like, mess up our formulas. Then there was this other scary thing that could happen where, like, someone could just

buy us if I didn't have the money that didn't even want to work with me. Like, they could just, like, buy the intellectual property, buy the inventory, buy the name, and then sell it wherever the hell. And, like, I kept saying, like, wait, that's like a, I'm feeling like, that's like a Jojo situation. Like, you know, seeing it, we all know who Jojo is, we're all millennials here. So that, and so there was like someone who was like that, and then there was like two other people in like the final round. And so once I heard of like these three potential people, I was like, well, that brand I hope doesn't make a cute offer. But then the other two I was like, ah, this could be cute.

And so, and one of them was Winsong. And they had had a couple good stories of like other brands that they had turned around. And then once I started meeting with them, they were like really nice. And like I was like glass, aluminum. formulas. I was joking. It's not that funny of a joke, but we had just reformulated our nurture collection and changed the packaging. And I was like, oh my God, did this formula do it? Like, was this the one that put them over the edge? Like, I know I wanted to add the ceramides and everything, but I didn't mean to like bake up them and everything. But I was so obsessed

with this nurture formula, like, nurture and air dry cream. I was like, we have to do it. Well, we can't change them. Right. And I just was, and I'm really picky about that. I mean, I'm doing hair since I was like 17. So I like, well, it's not lying on the podcast since I was 18, but I think 17,000s are underdramatic. But yeah, so I just, I really wanted to make sure that we could keep the integrity of the line, because I was like, if I went through this much to get here, like I get that we couldn't stay where we were,

and I get that we were going to have to make changes, but I just didn't want to do it if it couldn't stay in my integrity. And so Winsong really did make me feel like, yes. And so then I was just like, oh my God, I hope this other company that wants to Jojo and me doesn't make a better offer. And then that didn't happen. Right. And so, yeah.

So to call the elephant in the room out, I made this video because your products, saved my life. I was getting really greasy hair at the time and your green formula. And Body is the only shampoo and conditioner if you were listening to this. If you have a slickback bun, it is the only thing that cleans your hair. And I actually didn't, like, I didn't buy it because of you, which I said, I think what talent actually really want, they want their brand to live on without people buying it for them. Sephora recommended it to me, and I was like obsessed with your brand, like, biggest diehard.

And so when I saw the news, I was kind of like, like, I had worked with celebrities and help them build brands. And so I was kind of like it actually wasn't directed towards you. It was actually directed to your team around you because from the outside looking in, I was like doing some numbers and some math, being like, this brand must be doing like at least $7 million. And I was like, I feel like this is a very low amount for it to be bought from bankruptcy court. Like how did it get to that point? And so I think it was one of those things where looking back and as I was prepping for this interview, like there's always things that we wish we did differently and knowing what you were going through in that time and having brands

myself now that have gone to bankruptcy court. Like I know the hands tied process that it is. But I think in that moment, I was kind of just like, this isn't making sense. And a lot of that is because it didn't make sense on Amherst's part. Like there were multiple brands that they had to put up to auction. And I think what I'm interested in to hear from you is like, did you go to the Naomi Watts who ended up buying their brand back or like the Rosie and you were like, what are you guys doing? doing our- Rosie and I talked. Okay.

Yeah. Rosie and I talked. Does that influence your decision or you were kind of like, this is my own thing. I just want your input. Well, Rosie and I just like said hi in our DMs and I was like, oh my God, I can't. We were talking. I love you. And then, and so then we were kind of just like talking about what situation we were in.

I think the thing that I can say it that we both expressed were just like, it was so nice to talk to someone who had been through something similar. Yeah. Of building a successful brand and having the rug pulled out from under them. I think that's the thing too that's so sad or just frustrating for me is it's like JVian and Hair didn't go bankrupt. Amorous went bankrupt. Exactly. Yeah. But I think so as far as like the numbers are concerned, I think what's bankruptcy happened,

they were like really wanting like a big sale. They just needed like a big sale. Yeah. And once they got a big sale, they didn't really focus too much on any other brands. Okay. And so for me, because I didn't have equity in which remember like in behind the music when left eye was like, how does the number one say? selling like girl ban like go bankrupt get out the pen and paper and get ready to do your

map. That's how I feel like I'm about to like do that right now. So when we started the company, we, the reason that I didn't have equity is because I didn't invest a cent in it. I got a really good signing bonus and I got a really good monthly and I got bonuses off of a monthly. So because they invested so much in it, they were like, okay, you're not going to own anything because we're investing all of this money.

But in success in like three, four, five years, we'll come back. we'll renegotiate. And so the goal was to have equity at some point, but we weren't having it at the very top. And so if I could do that again, over or not, like shoulda coulda, woulda, like it's good for me knowing in future. But one really interesting thing,

I love how I keep saying interesting, ha ha, but this part I would think about differently. I remember when I started JVN hair, I was like, this is my legacy and I want to be with this brand in like 50 years. I always want to be able to do hair. I always want to have hands in my hair. So like an exit plan or like selling and success

was like never. my radar, like, ever. Because, like, I just was like, I was like, I just want to have, like, a great office where I can do hair. Like, I was so naive. So much so that I was like, I don't ever want to sell, even if it is successful. Like, and now I understand how that goes. It's like, you sell and then you stay with it. Like, I didn't know that you could do both because I was silly girl. I was trying to learn how to be an author and a stand-up comedian after having been a hairdresser. There was like a lot. Like, so much was changing. In that bankruptcy process, I could feel from my end once Biosans was sold for a better number. They really didn't, like,

give, they didn't care too much. Whereas prior to that, they really cared. And then I definitely felt like a shift where like once they had like a number that they felt like was better from one of the companies, they were like, they just wanted out. They just like wanted to be done, which kind of worked for me because I didn't have equity. So whether we sold for $10 million or 50 cents, it didn't make a bit of difference to me because I wasn't going to get paid any extra or less. So I think that's just kind of what I was thinking of. I was like, I just wanted to find a home that I trusted where we had more ownership of the financial side. And that was one thing with Winsong that they were just like so amazing about. Okay. When I sell my business, I want the best tax

and investment advice. I want to help my kids and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my out of office has a forever setting. An IG private wealth advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business. family and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IDPrivatewealth.com. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger ginger, tea and milk. Habaniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon.

Okay, I'm so excited to learn more about the Winsong partnership now, but one of the other questions that I have in the bankruptcy process, when the bankruptcy was announced and you finally gain control with Winsong Global, did it affect sales at all? Walk me through that process. I mean, yes. And I think also 2024 was not a great year for me. There's just a lot of turmoil. There was like a lot happening. But I think a large reason,

the bigger reason why our sales were impacted is because that bankruptcy process, inventory couldn't get paid for. So there was like, there was just like a clog in the system of like even having product. Because with like distributors and the like factories who make our products,

like if they were like not being paid, they were like not releasing stuff. So there was just like a huge shortage of inventory through a lot. of that. I think that was the biggest reason. And then Amaris was like, their business model was like growth at any cost. So they would spend like any amount of money basically to make any amount of money, which I always thought was weird, but I didn't understand like VC. I didn't understand that venture capital life. Whereas our company now, Winsong Global, their growth, but it's like measured growth

and you need to do that because you're running at a profit, not because you're lighting money on fire and throwing it out the window. I also think in any transit. like even in the best of situations, sales are going to be affected because in our case, we already had inventory that we were up against, but then also like Amra spent so much more money in advertising, whereas like when song, we have a much smaller spends. So like our Roas needs to be like way more effective. And so like we need to be like way more like choosy about like where we spend our money, how we spend our money, what's the assets that we're putting money behind.

Like that's a way bigger deal than it was where we were. I'm smiling because you sound like such an experienced CEO. It's so amazing. I listened to your episode with Tori Dunlap, which I loved. I love her too with her. She was on yours. You were on hers recently. She makes me feel really safe.

Yeah. It's like I talk way more with her than I do normally. Okay. Well, I loved all of the episodes. And I think like your vulnerability and ability to like really help people who feel the same way. Like money is not something that they can control or they just like don't understand it. And I think a lot of the time money is such a mindset.

It's like how you think. think about it is actually going to dictate what your financial future looks like. Subscriptions aren't just about repeat orders. They're about building real lasting relationships. And that's where Recharge comes in. They're the subscription platform powering the brands you know and love, Chamberlain Coffee, Blueland, Bird and B, and over 100 million subscribers worldwide. What we love, recharge takes the headache out of retention with seamless subscription experiences, powerful analytics, and tools that help brands go beyond the moment to keep customers coming back. From flexible billing options to automated retention

strategies, they make it easy for brands to deepen their connection with every customer, turning one-time buyers into loyal advocates. This is why we partner with recharge and why they're giving the HSR community 90 days free, helping brands test, learn, and find. And, grow their subscription business with zero risk. To claim this incredible offer of 90 days free, click the link in the show notes. One of the things that I actually was so fascinated about and I really wanted to ask you because you talk on her podcast about how this experience kind of changed your catalyst for personal finance evolution.

And I think a lot of people listening to this will be surprised to think about you as a top reality TV star at this time. I think you'd already written a book and people are like, well, didn't he just have the money to purchase the brand outright? What do you think that this experience has really done to you in your personal finance journey? I mean, at the end of the day, top reality star, self-employed. So for any self-employed entrepreneur, you would know, and I kind of had like similar financial habits, whether I was making like $30,000 a year or $3 million a year, which is like impulse by now, think about it later. And I've worked really hard to budget.

I've worked really hard to be more proactive about it. And I think it was the trauma of realizing that I was going to have like a seven-figure shortfall of something that I thought I was going to have. And knowing it's like, not only does Amherst have employees, like, I have like seven full-time employees. Yeah. I also found out through this process that I was like one of less than 10% of American companies that with firms of under 10 employees that pay for all of their health insurance and

of their 401 case. So, I mean, I also pay above industry standard, like, on all of my roles. Wow. So navigating that with a shortfall, trying to keep my, you know, myself happy and hopeful through that was really hard. But I think that it also just, it taught me, like, don't live so close to the edge. Which I think is important for everyone to hear, especially in this world that we live in, which is, like, show and, like, expend beyond your means.

But it's, like, being able to have that safety. at to figure out, like, you never know what's going to happen is so important. Yes. Okay. So Winsong Global comes in December 2023. It sounds like you were really excited about this. Yes. Did you have a say at all in who bought it or walk me through the process for where you

have these three buyers and you're like, okay, I want to go with this one. What happens? So that, so yes and no. Like if the Jojo people had come in and been like, we're going to offer 10 million, then no. Because bankruptcy court would say we need to pay off our debt. We're taking the 10 million. Correct. Amherst had almost $2 billion of it at the time. Which, just to be clear, that's $2,000 million, you guys.

Yes. I do this whole bit in my show now. When I realized that a billion was like $1,000 millions and not $100 million, wow. That's why billionaires aren't supposed to exist, you guys, because that's $1,000 millions. It's insane. That's so much remez. It is so much remas.

So many houses. You can make a house made of Box Kellys and just replace it any time. There's even, like, the tiniest little scratch. So they have almost $2 billion worth of debt. So of course they're going to take a $10 million offer versus a $1.25 million offer. Right. So if that had happened, that would have been like really sad. But I also think if that had happened, I probably would have had legal recourse to like... Step away.

Yes. And so I do think that ultimately Amherst did want a more beneficial working relationship between me and whoever, because it would probably make their life easier later. So I didn't have a say, but I think everyone wanted. Because I wanted to stay with the brain and I wanted to preserve, like, as many people that we were employing at the time. That was my number one priority. So I think that had a little bit of weight, but the biggest weight was like who was going to pay the most. So it goes to Winsong Global.

Yes. And I'm really relieved. What happens? I can't remember where I was on that day. But I remember when it happened, like, I had just had my butthole surgery. and it was really painful. And Teresa was like, stop telling me about your butthole all the time.

And I was like, I'm so sorry. I can't stop talking about my butthole. It's like, I just literally cannot stop talking about it because it just hurts so bad and this is just so crazy. And I can't believe that my body, like, I cannot. Yeah, like, I cannot believe

that my gay body betrayed me in this way. And so, yeah, I was just kind of dealing with that. And then when that, but there was, like, weeks there, like, in that, like, November to early December where, like, every time I would, like, walk into my bathroom and look at my products. Like, it was like Julia Roberts and my, and pretty woman was like,

lay a whisper. And I said to be like, no! I was like, look at my shampoo and conditioner in the shower. I'd be like, no! I'm going to go get fucking biolage. I never want to see again! It was just like so sad, but I never did throw my stuff away. I never threw it away, but I was like, I just like looked at it and I was like, why? I felt like fucking dancing here again in 1994. I was just like so upset.

And then when I realized that we were going to have a future and we were going to have a home, I was like, oh my God, it feels so good to not resent you girls. That was such a rough three weeks. I didn't want it to feel about like that about you guys. I just love you so much. But the thought of it was like not having a future was like really sending me. And it just made me feel so sad. Yeah. But you have. And I had two but holes. So it's just like so much. So you fix your but hole. You only have one now currently. Yes. Thank God. Yes. I've just been, can I tell you though? After that, after that I was like, okay, if I do not have colon cancer, I am so, like if my butt's fine, I'm so getting on GLP,

ones because like ow like I cannot because like my body was just betraying me like left right and center and so that was like a huge turning point because I was in so much like physical and mental and like emotional pain that I was like I am done being stuck I'm like done not feeling good like I will do anything to feel better and so it really made me like I like I fired my business manager so you love this part of the story I fired my business team um because I was like y'all are crazy that was I think what I wanted because I was on celebrity teams So I was the person that was helping these people build brands. And like, JVN, I have to be honest, when I was first negotiating equity deals for clients,

like, I had no fucking clue what I was doing. I was like calling my sister, who's a CPA, like, head of finance at a brand being like, what am I doing here? Like, how do I like do with this deal? I was trying to hire investment bankers to help consult for me being like, how do I negotiate equity for this client versus like, so I took it upon myself to really like help these celebrities feel empowered. And so that was the video where I was like, he needs to fire his team because this is not something that, like, he didn't go to MBA business school.

Like, and so I'm so happy to hear that you did that. Yes. So you fire the team. Well, I still have my, I still have, like, my agents and my legal team that got me into that deal. And so we talk about that sometimes. But that's okay. The other thing, too, that we did when we went with Winsong is I do have equity now. That's what I was going to say.

So, like, how did you guys structure it now? Like, from that day forward, you're like, I have a new home. I have new partners. Like, what happens then? Well, I feel like my team kind of learned from their mistakes, which was good. And so now I just have like a base equity no matter what, which is amazing. Yeah. Then in success, it can be like a different one.

Okay. And then I also can get like bonuses based off of EBITA, which is cute. So now I know what EBIT is, which is really fun. So that's kind of how it is now. So like in success, if we sell some day, when we sell some day, I will stay with the company because I'm such a control freak. I have to be with my girls. So you now have your people, both your products and your actual people. So did the entire team from Amherst come over?

Yes. Did you lose some people? There were layoffs that happened in that, like, I think right when bankruptcy happened, I think we lost a couple people there. But that's a crazy part is that, like, most of our team stayed, and most of them are still with us. And they are, like, some ride or die, like, loyal, hardworking, creative people. Well, you guys have the best products in the industry for hair care.

Like, I swear. That's why I was so upset when this whole thing was going down. Well, it really is different because, I mean, we are silicone-free and we use hemisquailing. which really is like a fundamentally different way of approaching hair care, like air dry cream. If you don't have a hero product, it's really hard to like, to booing yourself through anything.

And so that luckily for us and not to like take credit, but like... You're like, I came up with that. I did. Yeah. I did. The name, the formula, I mean, I worked on it with it on a chemist, but I mean, that was like...

Which one is it? Let's hold it up. Okay. And to me, and I'm doing hair since I was 18 years old, this is the most universal, beautiful product. It literally works. If you put this on detangled hair, Like 1A to 4C, it will just make your texture come out and be so much better.

So our sales stayed strong. It wasn't like they like, you know, cratered. But some of the biggest, and Teresa our president told me, like, from the very beginning, she was like, this year is going to suck. Like transition years suck. And they always are going to suck. And the numbers are going to be shitty. And the market meetings, you're going to want to, like, run out of there sobbing.

And it's just going to suck. And I was like, in the first market meeting that we did after the transition, I was like, I literally said my exact words leaving that. I was like, that felt like a drive-by shooting. Like, literally, were my exact words. Just red, just nothing but red on those graphs. And just all these corporate people in Sephora. And I was like, oh, this feels bad.

But wow, what a slog. We really turned that, we really turned it around. We got so much better, so much stronger. So at the beginning it was about, like, optimization, obviously. And I think that, like, people thought it was going to be an easier transition than it was. That created a lot of difficulty. like getting everything switched over on the back end so that that's like seamless on like a website. And then you like open up the hood and you're like, wait, how did they build this website?

And then when, you know, your team can control that versus like how some other team built that like, you know, three years ago in the height of fucking COVID, that was a bitch. So, you know, fixing all that and untangling all of that, getting the website functional, getting like the operation side squared away because that was like our team getting to take ownership or something that they did not have ownership for. So you're just like uncovering like massive. disaster after disaster after disaster after disaster. So then I started filming Queer Eye season 9, like the end of March. And that was just like knock down, drag out, gut wrenching. So much anxiety. I can't even tell you.

And actually, I've never said this in front of Teresa before, but I'll say it now. There were like times in that transition where I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I don't even know if I can't do this anymore. Like my soul has just been catwalking. on by like stilettos, like Valentino stilettos, but with like little like razors on the end of those little diamond things. And I just felt like I had just been like just, and I also think like in an election year when you've been like an outspoken political person and you're a brand founder, there was

like so much tension there. And then like topping off my 2024, like ending up in like a $220 million like pro-Trump campaign, I just really could not fucking catch a break in 2024. So that was a lot. I mean, I really feel like every kind of nightmare that I ever hoped wouldn't happen to me in my career, like kind of happened to me within the space of like, I don't know, six months. So to come out the other side now, and when we, like, when I found out that we like,

we're going to get the opportunity to expand into Ulta, like, massive. And I've never really talked about this either, but like through some of that, like, I had advertisers leave my podcast, just taking so many hits. like to your reputation and to your humanity and having people question like, are you a good person? Are you a bad person? Are you an idiot? Or like, you know, there's just so much all in that time. And so coming out on the other side when we started like when advertisers started to come back. And when we started to get better opportunities and when our sales did start to get better,

when we did that really hard work of like fixing all of those systems and getting our operations better and sourcing our being able to take control of our sourcing and how we advertise. how we do marketing, how we pay things for social, how we do photo shoots. I mean, we changed how we do everything outside of literally packaging and our formulas, which is really expensive. Yeah. We have not touched it. So I'm really proud of that.

Honestly, not to sound like a wokey left girl, but I think it's because I'm queer. I mean, I had to do that my entire life. Like contracting HIV, growing up in a really conservative community. like to this day if someone says faggot, I'm like, yes? Like, I mean, I was so mercilessly bullied. Like, verbally, physically, like, never felt safe where I was from. And I think that's why as an adult, like, I just feel like there's a part of me that just, and I've said this my whole career, like, I feel like I'm in a constant state of shock

because I, like, it's just so much better. Like, I feel like, and even if I had never gotten queer, I, like, just going to the salon and being in a salon in a city where I had, like, a community and, like, clients. Like, I just, I was like, I felt like, you know, Ariel with legs. Like, I just felt like I, like, I had made it, you know? So even if I had never done queer eye, never done JVN hair, never had a podcast, never, you know, sold four New York time bestselling novels. Well, three bestselling novels, one bestselling children's book.

Not that anyone's counting. But I would have been happy and fulfilled because I love doing hair. So that's one thing I'm really lucky for that I did have that North Star that I've always loved. But I think that's why I've been able to pick myself up is like, I learned from a young age that, like, you need to be able to, like, entertain yourself and you need to have something that, like, you are excited for or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even, like, successfully. Like, you will not survive. Yeah.

If there's something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. Like, I think that's what, like, I always look for. And even, like, influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place? You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to, like, get through the shit of it when you're in it. I learn from a young age that you need to be able to entertain yourself and you need to have something that, like, you are excited for or you won't be able to make it in life.

Not even, like, successfully. Like, you will not survive. Yeah. If there is something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. I think that's what I always look for. And even influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor? and get you to that next place.

You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to get through the shit of it when you're in it. I don't know. Well, I mean, so much my therapy has been, like, in finding my centered self, like, in internal family systems, which is, like, in parts therapy, which is, like, what I do with my therapist a lot. It's about, like, cultivating your centered self, which is really, like, all of us have a

centered self. And that's, like, that's, like, the one that's, like, really clear and competitive. passionate and calm and courageous and centered. And so it's like working on like finding who that is and getting out of like my people pleaser part or the part that I have that's really polarized with my people please or part is my irritated part, which has also historically gotten me into trouble. So like getting both of them to like calm down enough so I can just be like calm and centered and like feel like I'm in my power has been like what so much of my therapeutic work has been.

I feel like if I was you, I would just be waking up and be like, I'm literally just trying to make people beautiful and make people feel good. And I'm getting all of this criticism for that. Do you ever just wake up every day and just be like, why is this happening to me? Well, I think we're in the middle of like a pretty intense, like, right word, cultural shift, which I think is why a lot of that's been happening. So some of that, like I don't really take super personally. Although, you know, Cheryl Porter, she's this, like, incredible voice coach.

She's like a 22 million follower queen on TikTok. She's like 12 million followers on her YouTube. She's just making her debut right now on Anne Juliet on Broadway, but she's incredible. She said something to me that really, I have not stopped thinking about it, and I think she changed my life. And I think she also, like, kind of healed two years of trauma with, like, one sentence. I said something that wasn't even, like, all of the story about what we're talking about, but it was something about me feeling embarrassed or, like, shame about something that had happened publicly. And she was like, you have got to stop thinking about yourself, like that.

Like, it's not about what happened to me. it's about what can I do for people? Like, you have this huge platform. Like, what can you do for people? What do people want from you? Like, stop thinking about, like, oh, this happened to me because I had this. And it's like, no, like, being of service isn't just, like, going to volunteer or, like, going to, like, you know, donate something at a soup kitchen.

Like, being of service is, like, what do people need from you? And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so passionate. I'm so creative. I'm all about exploring self-acceptance and, like, figuring out, like, how to get in, like, a better relationship with myself. That, I mean, my literal mission statement, is to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. It's literally what my mission statement is.

Love that. And it always comes back to that. So I was like, girl, like, stop thinking about this criticism. Stop thinking about the failure. Stop thinking about, like, oh, my God, these things happened to me and start thinking about. And it really was, like, she took a fucking gong and, like, ring this, like, bell. And it almost just, I was like, uh-huh.

And it was, so I think she Hoffmaned me already. I think it happened, like, two weeks ago because it's really, I, like, really responded, like, differently to, like, so many public, not, so many, but a few public things that have happened since that recording where I'm like, wow. You just launched into 700 doors in Alta, which is like huge. Because what I read from your glossy article that I love, it goes back to your mission of like being a Midwestern, like, that's where you were born is in the Midwest.

And Sephora's don't reach that clientele as much as they reach like the New Yorkers, the L.A. And so being an Alta is such a huge accomplishment for you. You're met with controversy from people being like, he is a male biologically founded brand. Do people know that also like Oliplex is also like a male founded brand? Like they're like Andrew Rosen and the women's fashion, contemporary fashion category also is a male founded brand. So I guess for you to be met with that controversy when that should be a moment of celebration, like when do you draw the line of what you say and what you don't? Because there was a lot of like conversation on like, oh, this is like what society is normalized.

And I was like, yeah, I can agree with you on that. Like, we're normalizing thousands of children being starved to death in front of our eyes. We're normalizing people being blown away in our schools. We're normalizing literally women being forced into birth. 60 million women in this country don't have access to reproductive health care anymore. That's what we've normalized. We've normalized people getting shot and killed in broad daylight and then going to work an hour later, like nothing happened. I think that's really not normal.

I think that so many things in American culture have become so insanely normalized. but I think in a Christian way, as someone who was like born and raised in the church and was a little altar boy every Sunday of my life and went to a Christian sports camp for 12 years for two weeks every summer where I won the Enfuego for Christ Award, by the way. Jesus is not concerned about me in a dress

as much as he is about like the rampant poverty and corruption. In a world where like we have really not that many reasons to see the best in each other and hope the best for each other, I keep thinking about being angry at conservatives or policies and thinking that like, okay, well, me being angry about that and using my platform to talk about how pissed off I am about that, kind of feels like me. It feels like what I really want chick-fil-a, you know, but I know that's bad for me. They don't even support our community, you know, but I really need to like make the food at home. But I don't want to make the food at home. I want to do the easy thing.

I just, like, want to order it. It's easier for me to, like, be angry and, like, be mad at another side and demonize another person than it is for me to, say to myself, maybe they were fed information that's not true. Maybe they are in a culture of fear. Like maybe they just haven't met anyone. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like easier for us to be like distrustful and angry at someone than it has for us to like get into our compassion because it's harder to be compassionate when you have reason and lived experience to not be. Which if we were really talking about Jesus out here, that is what turning the other cheek means. It means like literally being burnt and turning the other cheat to be burnt again. But the

point is, I think that's really what his message is about is turning the other cheek. You're meant to be compassionate with people. You're meant to, like, not judge people. So, yeah, I just think growing up in such a conservative place, I'm, like, not at all surprised. I'm always disappointed, but I'm never surprised. Because, me, my hometown voted for Trump, like, three to one. Like, I'm very... Do your parents still live there? Yes. Well, no, my dad does it. My mom does. And you go back and visit? Not that much, no. I was going to say, like, what does that bring up for you if you were, like, going back to the place that was just hard to grow up in. Yeah, I don't love it.

We went for an episode of Queer Eye. It was really hard. I thought in the moment, it felt really cathartic. And then I found out after we left it, there was like an uptick in like attacks on queer people after we left. And that just me, I wrote about it in my second book. You know, like in that song, I think it was by Cassandra that Taylor wrote. She said when it's like, when it's like burn the bitch there screaming, but when the truth comes out, it's quiet. Yeah.

So it's like, but that also goes for good news too. Like people will celebrate the good things, but then if there is like another thing after, it's like doesn't want to look with that. Doesn't want to. Well, I feel like that's even true for your success too. Like people are happy for you to a certain point. And it's like I realize too that it's like heavy as the head that wears the crown. Like when you start achieving and you add to your list of like, you know, I am a stand

of committee that has sold out tours and I have bestselling New York Times books. And I'm a beauty brand founder that has risen. from the ashes and I'm doing this again, like, it's so hard to rationalize as a human where it's like, as soon as you keep going up and up, people are just waiting to tear you down. Yes. That is hard for me to rationalize with because I'm just like, we're so here for when things are going badly and then when things are going well for people, we don't want to celebrate it if it's too much for us.

Yes. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Yeah. Can we talk about Kuri for a second? Yes. Okay. I'm so interested in the transformation. that changed you more than it probably changed the person.

Ooh. Oh my God, there's a few. Tammy always comes up for me from, I think she was like season two episode one. Also, interestingly, when Rolling Stone did come out, she was like one of the very first voicemails that like I had. She was like, we don't believe shit, honey. Like, keep your head up. Like, don't you let them, like tear you down. Like, I know that's bullshit.

Like she was like, she's just anytime anything good or bad happens, she was. she was like one of the very first people there. Like she's just such a love when I did my last, I just did my first young adult fiction novel this year and it was so fun to write. But I did the book tour in Atlanta and she was like in the front row. She's just like so cute.

Mama Tammy, she's like such a good person. But she's a huge one. Angel always comes up for me too. She was season six. What was the biggest part of their transformation? Well, I mean, Mama Tammy was, I really feel like she was more for us

than we even were for her. I mean, what Bobby did to her like community center was like so sweet and it's like really cool how they, that center is still used in her community. I think it's really helped her community. But I feel like her love and attention, like after the show has been like really so healing. I mean, she's like a confidant.

Yeah. Like I love her. I follow her kids. Like I follow her. Like I love her. Angel, again, I think it's been more like after. Because seeing her kind of like come out of her like, not that she was like in a shell, but I feel like when we did her episode of Queer, I was like 2021.

she was really early on her in her transition. She was like navigating living in Texas as a trans woman. Now she lives in Seattle. She's so much more herself. She's like in a community where she feels safe. So I just, and she's like in her 20s. So just like seeing her like expand and grow and like become the woman that she is is like

just really inspiring for me. And also it kind of makes me realize like some of the ways that like I like unintentionally put her in a box like on her episode. Like I was like let's do like a blended red light. Like she wants bold ass. old ass red fucking panels all over her hair. And it's not like, I don't think she said that back then, but it's just like seeing her evolve to the woman that she is now.

I'm like, wow. Like, how have there been ways where like I've been like doing what I think would look best without maybe investigating as much as what I thought even the person wanted? Like that, like, I feel like that's kind of a lesson she taught me is like dig deeper, ask more questions. I think Jamie also from like queer eye in Austin, she did like safe in Austin. She has this like huge animal shelter. And she's one that like I feel like really changed me still does change me.

and watching her. She's like someone who, similarly I think has had a really hard time after the show and doesn't have as much support. And like I see her social not get the love and the support that it like once did. And I think that's been hard for her and it's hard to like.

Watch it. Yeah. How do you feel with queer art entering into its last season? Well, we wrapped it. Last month, we finished. And then we just went to the Emmys like two weeks ago or like a week ago, which was for season nine.

Did not expect to win. That was amazing. That was really fun. That was your second. Yeah, that was our second. It was the show's seventh. So not expecting for them to call our name at all. And then there's this thing at like award shows where like there's camera people there, you know.

So you can kind of tell like if the camera's in your face, like you might win. But if the cameras know we're close and like, that's I could tell in 2024. Because like all the cameras were like by Shark Tank. And I was like, oh my God. We're not winning. Yeah, we're so not winning this. And so then when we were there this year, the camera guy took like three gaping steps like past me. and I was like, oh, shit,

but I was like, that's fine. I was like, already in place of acceptance. Like, I knew we weren't going to win. And then, like, the lights came on, and she opened the envelope and she was, like, queer eye. And then I felt this, like, wush of air. And he was, like, in my face. And I was, like, the only other time,

this is perfect for the fistula to come back. The only other time in my life, I made that shocked of a face is when I found the second butthole. I literally, my face, like, I forgot that I was in glam. Like, when they said queer eye, I was, like, like, I palmed my face all the way. Like, I knocked off lashes. It was so, I cried.

It was so fun. It actually was like the most fun win of anything I've ever won because I totally did not think we were going to and I'd already accepted not winning. Like I was so just happy to be there. And then I was like, oh my God, the gal is going to be way more fun now. And it was. So do you think that you'll do reality TV moving forward?

I hope so. I think it needs to be like the right project. And I also think like my mission statement, I'm serious about that. Like I really want to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. So it's like if it doesn't fall in line with that, I also have been like I'm working on a fiction project right now and I've been learning how to

I just I really like writing and I also with JVN hair this morning I spent like three hours like shooting our air dry cream like jumbo stuff or like our jumbo content I did like three models hair I did my models hair tomorrow I have a whole salon day to make social content so I really get like my hairdresser

and like artist like mine satiated and doing our models and like prepping our models and doing all of our photo shoots. And then when I'm not doing that, I really am either working on stand-up or working on writing something or my podcast, which takes up, like, so much of my time as you understand. So that's kind of like what I spent my time doing. But I would love to do unscripted.

I think the other thing about unscripted TV is like not in a good place right now. Like Lizzo, I just thought did this really good TikTok where she was like the age. She's like, I'm Lizzo. I'm a multi-platinum recording artist. And this is why I tell you that like the golden age of like music videos is dead. I was like, I need to do a hook like that where it's like, I'm on like one of the longest running Netflix shows of all time. And let me tell you why unscripted is like, because if it's like no network is willing to take a risk on anything. And you have to like have such insane numbers for them to bring you back a second time, which is why us making it for 10 seasons is like unheard of.

Yeah. Can I tell you my thesis or my hypothesis? Tell me. Is I actually think that brands are going to be. funding a lot of the unscripted shows. There we are. Yeah. But I'm like, so are you familiar with that brand built?

Yes. So they did that like Roommies, Roommies, Roommies series and then in style that the like intern on social media. I feel like JVN hair is going to do like an unscripted thing. Yes. I love that. Yeah. Like I just feel like because realistically the consumer at least of JVN hair like they

want to see you using the products. Like how do I fix my hair like this and how do I do that? And like it's not just about that. And that's what I realized about my show. was like, yes, we could be an everyday, like, founder podcast, right? Where you just talk about the brand, but that is so not real life. Like, your life is existing at the same time you're building a brand. And so I wanted to create a space where it's like you learn about the who the person is as they're building the brand,

as much as you're actually learning a tip or a trick. And I think that's so true with where content is going is like people want that longer form of the brands that they're obsessed with because you've created this world of JBN. What are the three words that you would describe JVN hair as, actually? Ooh, expressive. Okay. Inclusive. And, oh, maybe it's like celib. No, expressive, inclusive.

I think people, like, throw around, like, the word holistic. So that's what I mean when I say that it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching your hair. If I had to do packaging again, I was really in, like, my row phase. And I still am in my row phase. Like the row. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'll never, like, fall out of.

love with Mary Kate and Ashley. Like they've just had me in like a stranglehold since I was like two. And like I think about that part and it takes two and she was like chop in. Like I just love them so much. I can't get over how much you know that part, right? Yeah. So that's why all these are beige. Because I was just from the row.

Yeah. I was like to me when I think of like expensive luxury, I think the row, I think beige, I need timeless, I need classic. I would make these like brighter and cuter now. And if you notice like our line has evolved like brighter and cuter. Yeah. So if I had that to do over, I would totally do that again. I just was like, I was like, everything needs to be beige and timeless.

And then I realized that in Sephora, it ended up looking like a fucking locker room stall and because everything was beige. And I was like, oh. But we're sustainable girls around here. So we're selling through all of that, okay? We're not just like taking our stuff and dumping it out, which is what a lot of other brands do. We're selling through our stuff because really I did not want a bunch of like shit at T.J. Max are floating at the bottom of an ocean. Because like, I was like, oh, that color could be cuter, but it's the same formula. And there's so much waste.

It's for a reason we're trying to, like, not be wasteful. This episode is brought to you by Tellus Online Security. Oh, tax season is the worst. You mean hack season? Sorry, what? Yeah, cybercriminals love tax forms. But I've got Tellus Online Security. It helps protect against identity theft and financial fraud

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like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. It's crazy, though, because I, as a millennial, like, I love beige, And I feel like every brand actually tried to be like Gen Z and like these big bright colors because that's what we thought Gen Z wanted. But like, do. But like, do. Do you know, I still love beige. I still love it.

I still love it more than anything. I actually think like- But you know what I also love is pastel tie-dye. Same. Same. So I'm like, do we just go like- A little. But then it's gonna look at Kamika and I can't do that.

I gotta say if you went like super bright, I don't feel like it would be like- It's not us. But can I tell you that in like, it was like, I think it was 2023. And me and T were like, ugh, you know what's such a hot color? And we were like buttery yellow.

And then we were like, because that's when we decided to do our dry champ and like our styling line, like expanding into more of like a buttery yellow. So like it's still like supple and like refined. Because if you notice when the row branches into color, they'll do yellows and limes. So it's like we can,

if the row doesn't do it, then I don't want to do it. If they've never done it, then I'm like, I can't do that color. That's kind of like a barometer for me. Is your dream collaboration with JVN. the row? It's not because I

think I would die. And so for the health of like the brand and everything I just like I don't want us to have like a dead founder. You know? So who is your dream collaboration with J.V. and Hair? Well I would be so fun to do Mary Kate and Ashley but I really do think I would fucking die.

Like I think I would just like drop the fuck death. But can I just say they would both be so good for air dry cream. Okay so we're going to get them on. They really what? Oh my God, I think Mark Townsend still does their hair and I used to assist for him when I was at Ellie Hirschberger and he would come to LA when he really worked in New York. So he's like, watch his clients and times of Mark.

And based- You remember me, I got too good coffee. Okay, so if Mark ever can't do their hair, you're filling in for Mary Kate and Ashley and was in. I don't know. I really do think I die. They can do these my products. Okay. Who is the person you fanned girled over using JBN hair?

Well, there's one really famous person who I can't say, but. So she was like really cool. I was like, oh my God. Wait, which product does she use? She uses our nurture mask. Okay. Is there a celebrity that you really want to use JVN hair that has. hasn't yet, other than the Olson twins?

I mean, I'm so down with anyone using, like, I'm, you know, I'm kind of Dali Parton in that sense. Like, I'm agnostic. The person who I've always wanted to use my products and, like, my biggest celebrity, like, dream, like, did. And she ruined me for this question. And so now it's, like, the inaugural part of every podcast where I get to talk about Michelle Kwan, who is the most decorated American figure skater of all time. And actually, I literally tested instant recovery serum on her hair when I was formulating it. I blew her hair out with all of our products.

And yeah, she was one of the first people that I did IRS on. It was in Philadelphia. I met her there to test it on her. She's been a huge supporter of our brand from the jump. And I love her so much. And I can't believe that she wanted to be my friend because she came on Queer Eye season three. So like she really did kind of ruin me for like meeting your heroes because I met my hero. I know, but it's like no one ever can like live up to that.

Like she was like for most people if it was like your Beyonce or you're like you're Adele or like it was always Michelle Kwan. I've only ever been talking about Michelle Kwan. When I wrote over the top, my first book, my editor was like, girl, you have a problem. I think you refer to her like 222 times. Like it needs to, you got to bring it back down to Earth, like 10 times or something. Oh my God. So I think we compromised on like 80. She just really got to me my young queer trauma.

Like she was like my beacon of light and hope. And she never stopped. And now she's like my friend and she was my product. So I just. Oh my God. This is the best to see this evolution for you. I am so happy. Oh, my God.

Okay. Okay. I can't have you on the show and not ask you about my transformation. I need to do. Looking at me, what is one thing that you think that I should evolve? Well, one thing I've been thinking this whole time is I love your cheek color. What is that blush? Oh, it's COSAS.

Life is something. Can I tell you something else? Yeah. So Alex Kansani said on TikTok that we're never putting anything on our temples because it snatches you back. So ever since then, I've been militant about not putting any blush. Wait, if you put blush here, it snatches you back? No, she said if you don't put anything there.

It snatches you back. So she was like, I never put any makeup right here because it snatches. But I've just been looking. But now I feel like she's wrong because this blush that you have, because I can feel like your blush place and you put it up here. And now all I want to do is like tape blush and like put it up here because I feel like this that you're giving me this whole time. I can't believe that I didn't stop the conversation to talk about that until now.

Because it was, in fact, you know those times when losing my train of thought? Yeah. You're looking at the blush. That's the entire time. Wait, because I saw this Instagram video that was like. It's so pretty. Is it? Okay.

But what's something I can change? Okay. Well, do you want to? Okay, let's talk about your hair. Yeah. I can see that your natural color is lighter than you're brown. Yeah. And I just always feel for people that go darker than their natural color because it's, like, really annoying to, like, I almost feel like that's, like, a more annoying route than when you're, when it's dark and it's lighter down here, it's, like, more forgiving.

Okay. This is a line. Yeah. And so I think one thing that you could do is, I love you, brunette. I think you're so pretty and, like, no notes. I just, like, hate lines of demarcation, and I hate having to deal with them. Okay. I think it's expensive and it's time consuming.

So what I've been doing with a lot of my clients is switching them from permanent color to semi-permanent color. Because it has a softer grow-out. And then that way, as you wash your hair, it like sloughs off over the next like 30 to 40 washes. So it won't be totally your virgin color, but you see your hair colors start to come out. I like to compare it to the difference between like panty hose and tights. Okay. Permanent is tights. Semi-permanent is panty hose.

Okay. So that I would talk to your colorist about evolving to a semi-perman. base instead of a permanent base. Okay, one other question. Do you see these hairs right here? Yes. How they separate. Should I laser this?

It's not discharging. Someone who is living on borrowed time for my hairline because everyone in my family is like bald and I don't know how I still have hair at 38. I could never advocate for someone lasering hair off their head. It just feels. But look at this. Can we transplant it? Can I come with you?

Can we transplant into my hairline? Nice hair. But what? But it's like detached. I love that. Spray some dry shampoo on it. Oh, really? Spray some dry shampoo on it right now.

Right now. Okay. Yeah, with love. I didn't mean to be so bossy. I think that might like join your friends with your other friends. So do I lift up my hair and do this? Yeah. Do I have to press it down?

Yeah, you got it. Oh my God. I always feel like late lightly when she was on her press to her when I do this to people. Okay. I'm like, oh my God, JVian, I just did my hair. I think I met my celebrity crush in real life. God, I'm so. What do we think?

I just, you have great hair. Thank you. but the hair line is a problem. It's not a problem. You know, I almost wonder, it's as if it... It's a mystery. Well, I think that it might

want to live on the other side. And so I need to change my part. Yes, but you can only do that when it's like wet. Okay. When it's like dry, it doesn't want to do that. Okay.

But that did fluff it up and blend it in. Okay. So, I mean, I feel like... I'm sweating through my shirt so bad. You, the start off of this interview had me still fucking nervous. So do you feel like a little,

like, was it cathartic to talk to the person that made that video a little bit? it was more fun okay yeah and i do really want you to know that like it came from a place of not trying to tear it down by being like i am the only part that really hurt my feelings i really didn't like yeah it's talking about my team girl because my endorsement's i've known those kids i was meant for the business manager like the person who like really like next time you do a video like that be more specific okay okay and this is such a big team and then they're like oh my god and then

they're like oh my god do we fuck it up and like are you mad and because like That video went far and wide, so my team, you had them shaking in their boots. And they got mouths to feed. And can I say, like, the thing about me is... That you're Canadian and you guys just really are direct. And also, like, I'm sorry. Like, if it, like, hurt you... Do not apologize.

Anything would have hurt me. Looking at me at the wrong way would have hurt me in that time. I was very sensitive. I know, but I just want you to know from a place of, like, I made it because I am such a fan of what you've built, and I was, like, so confused and sad. Yeah, like, if you rewatch it, which I did a bunch of... leading up into this interview. I don't feel like I came out from a place of like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. It was like, what happened? Like, this is crazy. And I really just feel

like what you've done with this brand and, like, everything that you've gone through is probably the most impressive turnaround. Like, I have ever seen. I think you are going to be so incredibly successful. I actually need you to message me if you're ever raising money. Like, I would love to invest. Call bill. Yeah, like if you guys raise many, like please, like I, please call me. And I'm just so impressed and I'm so grateful you came on. But also, I could tell when you made that video that there was like care and love in there.

And like, like, I really could. And you were so complimentary in it. And like, like, like, and I just was, it's embarrassing. Like having a flop. Well, no, sometimes having a flop is embarrassing. But that's, I think, what I love about people like you who like climb so high. And the higher that you climb, it's so much harder to put yourself out there because you do risk failing. And I'm nowhere near you now, but like the podcast today that we're recording is the number 33 in the world.

And so like I get afraid to try new things or like have longer episodes or like do different things because I'm like, oh, we have a formula. It's working. But that's actually what will kill businesses is when you stop experimenting and you stop trying. So I feel like everyone just needs a little JVN in their life. So what day is your podcast out that people should be listening to? We do Wednesdays is getting better. Okay. And that's really just getting better at doing things.

Okay. It could be getting better at like work life balance or money or. or like understanding a topic that I'm confused by. Like I'm doing one on like understanding belonging better and like being better handling rejection. Okay. So it's like two that I'm excited for. I just did one on singing better.

And then Mondays are our Monday edit where that's me and our senior producer. And we're talking about like the BTS of the pod, the news. We do our hot bitch of the week. Love it. My hot bitch of the week right now or last week was like the shit, like the shadow side of the street. Because like it's just so much cooler. Okay. Love that.

You know, so it's never really a person. It's usually like a thing. Okay. And then it's like the Jonathan Van News desk. It's like the things that we're following is fun. So I love the Monday edit. We got a little joy there. Okay.

If you followed my career for a long time, my first like, foray on camera was this thing called Gay of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. So I feel like the Monday edit is giving like my Gay of Thrones energy. So it's a little more light, a little bit more fun, fun.

Used to be more beauty based on Mondays, we did pretty curious. Okay. And then the audience was like, girl, we don't want to hear about that anymore. Okay. The audience is always right.

Yes. So now we kind of evolved it. And so that's Mondays and Wednesdays, and I have so much fun doing it. Okay, can I ask you a few rapid fires before we leave? I'm like literally in size with you. It's a problem. Don't give me your phone number because I'm going to text you all the time. No, please, I want to give it to you.

And I have to snatch a follow button. I want to be friends. Yeah, me too. Okay. Okay. Okay. HIV medicine. Reality TV or stand-up comedy.

Stand-up comedy. Okay. Ooh, you're dancing coffee every day? Yeah. Or solid core. Solid core. Do you still do your dancing coffee, though? I do.

Okay. Ooh, you can only have one. You have to sell the rest. Kellys or Berkins. Sell the Kellys. Even though they don't resell as well. Okay. But I like Birkins better.

Okay. Dry shampoo or fresh blowout? If I'm doing it for myself, dry shampoo, because if I just blew that thing out, like, I don't want to have to do it again. So for myself, dry shampoo. But if it's, like, me refreshing my own blow dry or, like, going to get a fresh blow dry, then I would, like, much rather have a fresh blow dry. Okay. Heels or flats?

Flats. Oh, really? I feel like you look so good in heels. Me and my stylist are really at a throw right now because she keeps trying to put me in salettos all the time and I'm like, I'm almost 40 and I can feel my bunions like fucking beating in my third eye. If it's not a platform where a wedge, I can't handle it.

So JVAN on this podcast reveals he has two butt holes and three eyes. Okay. What is the most overrated hair trend right now? I have like a, I have, even when they were like big the first time in 2000 in like six to 11, I like fucking hate tensile strand. Wait, I don't know what that is. Because I've seen these fucking tintill strands. and everybody's fucking hair again.

Okay, so that's a no. Yeah, like what next to the fucking feathers? Okay, oh my God, I did that at a music festival, and it was just like, no. Like recently? No, this was like 2012. Honey, it's coming back. It's back. No, like Burning Man is just a day in Burning Man.

Like, girl, I don't like these like accoutrema in the hair. Who is one celebrity hair that you would love to fix? Okay. I don't want to get canceled. You won't. But, and it's not like, it's sheer, sheer curiosity because I am really good

understanding how hair moves. As a hairdresser in hair school, we're taught to break down an updo. Like, where is this hair coming from? Like, how do you have formed this? Like, you have to guess based off of a picture what's happening. I cannot figure out what's going on

with Donald Trump's hair. Like, I don't know where anything is coming from. I don't know where it starts. I don't know where it stops. I don't want to do it. I don't want to fix it. I don't want to be in the same fucking room with him. And there's not enough

in body conditioner or shampoo and like that Blake lively volumizing Blake Brown foam. There is not enough. There's not enough. It's not, I don't want to do it. But I am like a little curious, like from afar if I could be like a fly on the wall to see his hairdresser do that. Okay. Because like where is it starting?

Where is it stopping? Like what in the flat wrap is going on here? I don't understand what the fuck is going on with that fucking hair. Who's someone who's hair like I wanted you? I don't know. I just feel like celebrities have like such good hair. Like, I don't have notes for most of them. Like, most of them have, like, really good hair.

Huh. You know, who was so sweet that I got to do a scene with once? Helen Mirren, and she does not... Wait, I don't know who that is. Wow. Wait, like, give me a hint. Helen Mirren, she's, like, iconic. She was, like, in, like, what has Helen Mirren not been in?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. I got to do a scene with her in, like, Sarah Cooper's, like, Netflix special where... Sarah Cooper was, like, that comedian who, like, lip-seinks Donald Trump, and then she did this special on Netflix. and I had to play the reporter who Trump and Billy Bush are talking about. Okay. And Helen Mirren was Billy Bush or Bobby Bush or whatever the fuck his name was. And then Sarah Cooper was Donald Trump.

And so I'd like do a scene with Helen Mirren, which was like, I still can't believe like in hindsight that I like was on camera with Helen fucking Mirren. And she has gray hair. She doesn't need anything done with her hair. She's just so cool. I think about this like, I think it was like Paris Fashion Week. I can't remember who she was walking for. It could have been Vivian Westwood.

But she was walking the show and she lifts up her dress. and she's barefoot and she just starts like running, like down the runway. Oh, that's so cool. It gives me the chills thinking about it. So much so that I'm like, is my official coming back? Do I have COVID?

Like, I don't really either of those things I'm just saying that thought of her doing this run was like, she's just a bad bitch. Like Helen Mirren is so cool. Okay, so you want to do her hair? Yeah. Okay, manifesting that for you. Last one, do you mute or unfollow people?

I unfollow. I like that. If you're dead to me and you've absolutely like, unfixable damage, I unfollow. Except with this one girl who I was drunk that was one of my really good friends who I just unfollowed because she hurt my feelings. So if you're watching this, Monique, that's why I unfollowed you. But it's not because you're dead to me. Will you follow her back if she apologizes?

Do you hold grudges? Yeah, I'm working on it. What's your birthday? March 28th, I'm an aries. Oh, but I feel like they're not grudge holders. Although this identity expert on the Today Show said that we shouldn't tell people our birthdays anymore. But I feel like mine so publicized, like, what do I care? Wait, also, I just read something.

I think it was in the New York Times that actually, like, our horoscopes are very off from when, like, I need to find this article for you and send it to you. I don't want to butcher it. But basically, like, the stars shifted so much that, like, when you actually search your birthday, it's an interactive article in the New York Times. I actually have, like, identified as a gentleman in my whole life, apparently, based on what the stars were when I was born, I'm actually a tourist. Are you trans zodiac? Well, I think that everybody is. Oh, my God. We're all, like, trans zodiac signs.

Oh, my God. JVN. I think you were probably in my favorite interview. I'm dead serious about wanting to invest in your brand if you ever raise money. I'm so impressed with you. I'm so grateful you came on and shared your story. And thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

And I'm so excited for your success. And come on top podcast queen. Thank you. Yes, I love to have you on mine sometimes. I was like, where can people find you? I'm the most active on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at JVN on Instagram. And I'm at JVN underscore official on TikTok because someone got my fucking name on TikTok.

Wait, who has it? I don't know some boy whose name is JVN. But he seems really nice and he's like young. That's nice for him. Have you ever asked, can I buy your name? No. Okay. I don't want to.

Okay. I'm just going to have my little JVN official. Okay, well, we can find you on JVN and JVN official, and thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.