How Did This Get Made? - Last Looks: Monkeybone w/ Brad Meltzer

Episode Date: January 23, 2026

Nicolas Cage, Bingo Wings, and another Paul nudity flashback?! All this and more when Paul answers YOUR corrections & omissions on our Monkeybone episode. Plus, Jason & Paul chat with NY Times Best-Selling Author Brad Meltzer about his new book THE VIPER, his inside access to the witness protection program, favorite comic books, and a lot more. Paul also shares a bonus deleted scene from our Monkeybone live show and announces next week's new movie! PAUL, JASON, & BRAD'S COMIC BOOK RECS:Deadpool/BatmanGodzilla vs. the Marvel UniversePredator vs. The Marvel UniverseBatman by Matt Fraction and Jorge JiménezGhost Machine Absolute Batman #15Batman & Robin: Year OneJonna and the Unpossible monstersThor: the Mighty AvengerHiloBoneDog Man Captain UnderpantsBatman: The Brave and the Bold • Do YOU want to pick the movie for an upcoming ep? Vote on our discord here• Get up to 20% off tix to see Jason in ALL OUT on Broadway with code ALLOUTPOD at AllOutBroadway.com• Go to hdtgm.com for tour dates, merch, FAQs, and more• Have a Last Looks correction or omission? Call 619-PAULASK to leave us a voicemail!• Submit your Last Looks theme song to us here• Join the HDTGM conversation on Discord: discord.gg/hdtgm• Buy merch at howdidthisgetmade.dashery.com/• Order Paul’s book about his childhood: Joyful Recollections of Trauma• Shop our new hat collection at podswag.com• Paul’s Discord: discord.gg/paulscheer• Paul’s YouTube page: youtube.com/paulscheer• Follow Paul on Letterboxd: letterboxd.com/paulscheer• Subscribe to Enter The Dark Web w/ Paul & Rob Huebel: youtube.com/@enterthedarkweb• Listen to Unspooled with Paul & Amy Nicholson: unspooledpodcast.com• Listen to The Deep Dive with June & Jessica St. Clair: thedeepdiveacademy.com/podcast• Instagram: @hdtgm, @paulscheer, & @junediane• Twitter: @hdtgm, @paulscheer, & msjunediane  • Jason is not on social media• Episode transcripts available at how-did-this-get-made.simplecast.com/episodesGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using the link: siriusxm.com/hdtgm Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Edgar Allan Poe's family getting paid, the world's most secretive funeral home. And I have a nudity flashback. That's right, everybody. All this and more on a brand new episode of How Did This Get Made? Last Looks hit the theme. Last Looks, we can hardly wait. Last looks, it's appalling, Jason Day. What's up all my coma guys and coma gals?

It's me, Paul Shear, your nightmare guide through downtown. And welcome to how did this get made? Last looks where, wait a second, I'm realizing something here. Downtown. Okay, that's where Brendan Fraser is trapped in the movie Monkeybone. And now I didn't give it that much thought. Downtown, right? That's where it is.

It's like downtown Los Angeles. It's just a way to describe where he's at. But I'm looking at it and I'm realizing there's a sense. space between down and town. All I'm saying is this. Downtown is actually a town, right? It's not downtown. It's downtown. So there might even be a downtown downtown. Oh, wow. Now my mind is exploding. I love this subtle detail. Why? Because it's confusing. Because Brendan Fraser isn't even down. Technically, his body is up. He's out of the coma, but he is trapped in downtown. But he is also awake. So now I don't even

understand why you call it the downtown. It should be like, I don't know, Idville or, you know, I don't know. Idville, it's what I'm going with. Yeah, Monkeybone is confusing. Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. No matter how much Griffin Newman explained the plot to us, I still

didn't like it, even though maybe I respected it a little bit more. But Monkeybone is a film that could be many things. One of our users, Fun Facts 47, thinks it could have been called Drop Dead Fraser. Did I do it right, Scott? Scott is looking at me. Yes, I did it right. Scott was nervous. I was going to see Drop Dead Frazier, which was the title of my spec comedy pilot,

where we team up a world of cheers villains who go out to try to kill Frasier Crane, kind of like that, bring on the bad guys, Spider-Man thing. which I got to tell you, if you're somebody in the industry, you never got back to me about that. I really wish you would have read Drop Dead Frazier. But again, I don't want to associate my spec comedy pitch with Fun Facts 47's alt movie tagline, which they submitted on the Discord, which is Drop Dead Fraser. Anyway, get back to me if you want to read Drop Dead Frasier. it is available in PDF form only and just hit me on my AOL account. Big shout out to the Midwest Shakes for that opening theme song.

Now remember if you have an alt-movie tagline or a theme song, you can just submit it via the Discord at Discord.g.g. slash HDTGM. And these songs are really easy to give us because all you got to do is go to our website. You click on the submit a song button and then that's it. You drop it in the drop box and you get the hell out of there. Remember, as you put it in there so quick, you also should make the song quick, too. 15 to 20 seconds is best.

We're not saying that because we don't love you. We're saying that because we want to protect you. That's right. No one likes a long song. Do what Midwest shakes did so well. You nailed it? Got out. Some people would say hit it or quit it.

But I say, you nailed it and got out. All right. Coming up on today's episode, we're going to break down so much in Monkey Bone, a movie where, I believe there's going to be less of a division between team sanity and team Fred. If that was a breakdown, I think that there's a team monkey and a team bone. No, that sounds wrong to let's just call it team sanity. We are going to play a very exclusive, well, it's not that exclusive, but it is an exclusive. Deleted scene from our monkey bone episode in just a little bit.

There was so much in there. A shout out to our producer Molly, which did make the episode. But we love Molly. We love Scott. We love our whole team here. We also have a very special guest. I mean, no messing around special guest. I'm talking about a New York Times best-selling author, a award-winning comic book writer.

This guy has been on the show before. And we're going to break down his brand new book, The Viper. That's right. Brad Meltzer is coming back to the show in just a little bit. He's going to challenge Jason on some comic book trivia. But more importantly, he's going to tell us some stuff that blew my mind about the witness protection program. And he also was in the most top secret funeral home in the country. Brad is one of the coolest.

He writes all these amazing books like they're like little biographies. The I am books. I am Walt Disney. I am Sally Ride. If you haven't checked these out, they are great. I remember we got my kid the I am Jackie Robinson and the I am Jane Goodall. and we are the Beatles and they are addicted to them. They are so, so good.

And he's always got great ones coming out. I love Brad. I can't wait for you to hear what we're talking to him about in just a little bit. And of course, you know why you're here to hear the reveal of next week's movie. That's right. We got a good one for you. And right now, if you're in New York City or you want to travel in New York City, you could catch Jason on Broadway in All Out.

All Out is a hilarious night of short stories from Simon Rich. Simon Rich, I love Simon Rich. If you've not read one of his books, you're missing out. Simon Rich, I believe, wrote the short story that Seth Rogen based an American pickle on, which is a movie I really enjoyed. But I love Simon so much. I love his writing. And this is a great night because not only is it full of hilarious people like Sarah Silverman, Heidi Gardner, Craig Robinson, but the band Lawrence, who I worked with when I did this big fundraiser for everybody who. when we were out of work during the strikes,

are also playing along with them every single night and they were just bringing down the house. But here's the thing. You want to see Jason live. You want to see him alongside Sarah Silverman, Heidi Gardner and Craig Robinson. Well, guess what? We're going to give you a 20% off on tickets.

That's right. How did this get made listeners? We'll get an exclusive discount code. Just go to all-outbroadway.com. Use the code all-out pod to get up to 20% off tickets. That is code. all out pod for up to 20% off tickets. You can also find the link and discount code in this episode in the show notes as well.

I want to thank everybody for watching my Taylor Swift documentary that I put up on YouTube last week. The comments have been wonderful. They've really blown me away. I've just been so incredibly moved by them. And I also just want to plug, I don't know when it's coming out, but I am in FX's beauty. right. One shot makes you hot. Do you know about beauty? Get ready for beauty. Beauty, I think,

might blow your mind. Here's a spoiler. Vincent Dinoffrio takes a shot. Who does he become? Ashton Coutcher. Tune in, people. That's all you need to know. All right. That is all the plugs I got. Let's get into it last week. We talked at length about Monkeybone. Well, we had questions. We might have even missed a few things. Here's your chance to set us straight fact check us, if you will. it is now time for corrections and omissions. Thank you, John Steele, for that awesome theme song. Let's go to the Discord. Ghost Mutt writes,

In the opening cartoon, Young Stu has a fetish for his elderly teacher's loose underarm skin. In the UK, there's actually a specific derogatory term for this loose skin fat. It's called Bingo Wings. Yes, that's right. Bingo Wings! This comes from the way in Bingo Hall. when a winner waves their arms in the air in celebration,

that loose arm flap, fat, flops around like wings. Pretty awful nickname, but what else would you call them? By the way, I love bingo wings. Bingo wings, I mean, we should have used, maybe the movie shouldn't have been called Monkeybone. It should have been called bingo wings. I love that. Thank you, ghost mutt.

Dr. Guts, 1003 writes, there was a lot of discussion about Ben Stiller's possible involvement in the film, but according to Henry Seleck on the film's DVD comic, He said his original plan was to have Nick Cage play the lead character. Whoa. Yes. And have him be a puppeteer instead of a cartoonist. I love this. And then once he was in the coma, the film would be stop motion and Cage would become one of his puppets. I mean, it's, wow, very Malkovich, right, being John Malkovich. Unfortunately, producer Chris Columbus insisted that audiences can't relate to an animated character. So the lead would have to be live action the whole time since Selech. couldn't do stop motion. He scrapped the puppeteer idea, and we got Brendan Fraser as a cartoonist version instead, just more proof that Chris Columbus was the true villain of this film. And here is some pre-production storyboard art from the film where they were still thinking about having Nicholas Cage as the lead. Now, you can go on Discord and check out this art. It looks awesome. And wow, what a cooler

idea to do this this way. Wow. Now I like the movie more. I like the movie more. I like the movie more if it was all like stop motion, not real people. Anyway, Nick Cage would have been genius and we were robbed. Mitch Kappa, chunk style, writes, Griffin gave a valiant defense of this movie, but let see him explain away Bob Odenkirk doing organ removal on a clothed corpse. Ooh, Mitch Kappa laying it down. Yeah. Look, sometimes you got to make your day. You don't have time to listen to the scriptie. Oh, it was in the other hand. Oh, we should not be fully clothed. No, you got to shoot the scene.

Comedy, people. Comedy with a K. That's what I think that scene is all about. Let's go to the phones. Julian from New York. Hey, this is Julian calling about the Monkeybone episode, specifically Griffin Newman's rousing defense of that shitty insane movie. So Griffin posits that all of these, you know, nightmare-inducing figures from history or

Attila the Honda, Jack, a Ripper. They are, quote, creative guys who didn't have an outlet yet. So under this theory, just like our heroes too, these guys were bad at drawing, to fall into a coma, quote, there's a little murderer in there who takes over their body and

quote, does a bunch of bad shit. You guys know where I'm going with this. There is one historical figure who was famously a mediocre artist who took a turn into nightmare inducing, quote, unquote, bad shit.

Is Griffin suggesting that Adolf Hitler's monkey bone took over his body? Is he saying that Hitler's childhood boner is responsible for World War II and the Holocaust? Is Griffin a Hitler apologist? Hang on, do we need the cancel Griffin Newman? Okay, bye. Wow, Julian, I am not touching that.

I am not touching that. one bit. Wow. Honestly, on the verge of maybe we should edit that out, but no, Griffin is not a Hitler apologist. He is not. We are not canceling Griffin at all. Respect Griffin. He hates ICE. He is a defender of democracy. He likes Stalin. I know that to be true. All right. Let's go back to the phone from Connecticut. We have Sarah. Hi, Paul. I have to say, I was was kind of sad to see you guys did Monkey Bone. It's actually one of my favorite movies. It's just so strange and weird, and I've watched this a million times.

That being said, it seemed like there was some confusion about downtown and where Monkeybone came from. So basically, Downtown is a collection of all of Earth's nightmares. And the reason Monkey Bone is in downtown is because he is the nightmare of Stu. And the only reason he exists is because he used to make horrible, scary art from the nightmares that he had before he met his girlfriend. And she told him to switch hands drawing and he'd grown Monkey Bone. And Monkey Bone was a type of nightmare about, you know, boners, I guess. And that's why there's all sorts of different kinds of monsters and stuff.

and they explain the reason that people are having less nightmares is because of studies like Julie's doing in order to help people sleep better and sleep meds and stuff. So they want more nightmares to populate their world. I hope that helps. I have seriously watched this movie a million times, but I appreciate your guys' commentary.

Love you lots. And have a good one. There's downtown again. There is downtown again. she made me realize, okay, well, got it. Like downtown, maybe it should be called like Nightmare Town. Um, oh, man. Yeah, and downtown should be Nightmare Town or Dream Zone. DreamScape. I saw DreamScape the movie in the theater. 3D glasses. I was so psyched. And I thought, like, that was a time when I thought like all 3D movies might have nudity in it too. I don't know why

I thought that, but I was like hoping that there's like a kissing scene in that movie. I remember. I was like, oh, maybe I'll see some nudity. No, there's no nudity in that movie. Hold on. Let me double check. I want to make sure there's no nudity because I remember being quite titillated at DreamScape. Oh my God.

There was nudity in Dreamscape. I think it was like a PG-G movie. Brief nudity and paranoid politics. Wait a second. PG-13? It was PG-13 and you saw nudity? I knew it. I knew it.

Holy cow. And I believe the nudity was Kate Capshaw. Yeah, I'm right. Wow. I have a mind for remembering nudity. All right. Let's go. Like weird little kid pervert.

Let's go back to the phones one more time to hear from the Berkshires. That's right. Jamie from the Berkshires, what do you got? Hi, Paul. I am a longtime listener, and I finally got to see you guys live last week in New York, and it was a great show. So Edgar Allan Poe, in the cast of characters in the prison of Monkeybone, was played by Edgar Allan Poe the fourth. And now he is calling himself the fourth, even though Edgar Allan Poe never had any children.

So I believe he is a great, great, great nephew of Poe. And so if you do a little digging into this man, he's very fascinating. He seems to have made an entire career of doing Poe characters and acting work through the Ho Connection. He eventually had his own, I think it was a one-man play called Po zest in 2011 that has some great reviews out there. And an excerpt from one from backstage is, if his famous relative knew what he was doing with his legacy, he'd probably wall that nephew into a wine cellar or bury him under some

floorboard. So there is that. And I am just a big fan. I hope you guys have a great weekend. Thank you. Bye. Wow. I love that. Keeping it in the family.

Keeping it in the family indeed. Guys, I have to tell you, I am still shook by my dreamscape revelation. Anyway, let's go back to the Discord. I mean, that Edgar Allan Poe thing was actually pretty great, too. Odd, but great. All right. The Mighty Beard writes, well, Rose McGowan posted about this movie on Facebook and Instagram back in 2016 and revealed some interesting things.

Here is her post. Here I am as Miss. kitty in a film called Monkeybone. The movie would have been incredible, at least the underworld part, if the men at 20th century Fox, the suits, hadn't fired the director, a true artist, Henry Selleck, halfway through filming, a profoundly stupid move. Later, Selick went on to direct Coraline and James and Giant Peach, both classics, the set design, costumes, prosthetics, actors, all at a master level, at least in the underworld part of the film. What Fox turned this film into because of their fear and lack of artistic thinking was a travesty. They truly robbed us the office. The

audience of a possible classic. Also, fun fact, Monkeybone was based on a graphic novel called Darktown. Why are we calling it Downtown? All right. Oh, wait, hold on. The weanies at Fox changed the name to Downtown because they were scared that African Americans would be upset by a psychedelic underground acid trip of a world with a cat for a waitress named Darktown. I'm not following that train of thought rose. Anyway, I wonder, oh, now it's getting weirder. I wonder how many African-American women directors they've hired in ratio to white male directors. That's what Fox should have been concerned with.

Okay, well, you kind of pulled yourself out. I don't, okay, I let it sit. I let it sit because I think there was a, the right energy was there. Anyway, Buster Bluthwrights at the live show, how is there not a comatee chant? Oh, man. Well, Buster, you should have been there. error. We should have had you. We need a comete. Coma tay. Coma T. All right. Wow. So many great corrections and omissions this week. Mainly the best one, in my opinion, is mine about dreamscape.

But look, I'm not going to give myself the award, even though I probably deserve it. I'm going to give one of you the award. I love that we heard a little bit from Rose McGowan. I also love that we have figured out that Edgar Allan Poe keeps it all in the family. but I think to me I'm going out on a limb and saying something really different. Yes, I know that we've listened to the commentary. Thank you, Dr. Guts. But I got to say bingo wings, that's a winner. Go smut.

You don't get anything, but you do get this amazing theme song. Hit it. Yes, thank you, Erin Webb for that beautiful winner's theme. Remember, chime in with your thoughts on these episodes. Give me a call, 619. P-A-U-L-A-S-K. Call it anytime. It's a Google line. You're not going to get anyone to pick up. So call, leave a message, have a fun fact. Give me something. Coming up after the break, Jason and I will chat with Brad Meltzer and I will announce our next movie. But first, take a listen to this bonus deleted scene from our monkey bone episode where Jason and I discuss our experiences taking the train to the show. While a woman had the loudest cell phone conversation from Washington, D.C., all the way to New York, screaming into her cell phone.

I was like, I am going to fucking murder this person. I sat next to a very lovely lady who dinged her elbow against the window, and we talked about that for about 10 minutes. Wait, you're talking to people on the train? Not willingly. Huge mistake. I put on headphones, if anybody tries to talk to me, I'm like, nope. That's not happening.

Here's why I think she started talking to me, because I did have a mahjong card out in my lap, and I was playing online mahjong. I think I was an easy target for an older woman. Yeah, big time. She's like, this person's safe. Wait, I'm sorry, were you trying to pick up an old woman? Because if not, that is a surefire way.

Like, oh yes, it is the 2025 Mahjong card. In bold font and for people who are slightly colorblind. Welcome back. By now, I'm sure you've all noticed that every week we re-release an old How Did This Game 8 episode back into our feed. These matinee episodes now come out every Tuesday to pair with Monkeybone. This week's matinee was another movie about a cartoonist interacting with his own creations. I'm talking about 1992's cool world. And next week's matinee will learn all about June's hatred of breakdancing when we watch Body Rock with guest Alison Bree. So keep on checking off all of our replays of classic episodes every Tuesday.

And now, without any further ado, it is time to welcome Jason and a very special guest. That's right. We've teased him throughout the show, the one, the only. Brad Meltzer, whose brand new book, Viper is in bookstores right now. And people, you're going to love it. You're going to rate it. You got to read it all up. But you know what?

Let me have him tell you all about. But first, John Cohen, play us in. Brad, so excited to have you back on the show. It's been too long. Yeah, good to see. guys. Thrilled to have you here, Brad. Brad, one of our most accomplished guests on the show, you are Emmy nominated, a number one New York Times bestselling author. You're writing comic books. You're writing nonfiction books. You're on a book tour, but your new book, The Viper, I am fascinated

about this. Jason and I were talking about this before you came on because this is the third book in your Zygannola series. And this is all about people who are disappearing, right? I mean, like, you are in the world, or you know a lot about how people disappear, whether it's a witness protection program. You're in the world of disappearing people, right? Right?

Is that your deal red? There is, there is a, in my phone, my wife knows, if anything happens to me, there is a guy to call that little, I said, put in the word kidnap. And it is literally, I'm like, you call him, and he's going to be the one to find. We're going to need that info, Brad. Yes.

Because you need to be found. I mean, but that's the, if you write thrillers for a living, that's what you have to be moving in, right? You have to find, like, I found this book. It's a crazy story. I was in a funeral home, as one is. Right. And this guy's showing me, you know, he's showing me around the funeral home doing research for one of the thrillers. And he opens up, I see a closet with a padlock.

And I'm like, well, that's obviously the most interesting place now, right? So what's in the closet? And he opens it up. And he's got all these old kind of like 90s, aerosuits and sequin gowns. And it's all the clothes that people pick out that they want to be buried in before they die. So, especially if you have no family, you pick out what you wear. And so, and it's got like, you know, a jet's jersey and like a hat that like a guy wants to wear because his ex-wife hates that hat and he's like, put me in the hat, you know, like. And so like people

are, you know, vindictive. But just realizing that that's hilarious, like to bury them in the wrong, like, like, not their fandom. Like, or like, I mean, is it like, could you, like, could you, No, he wants the hat. He's like, my wife hates this hat. But I love it. But I love it. Like my father is buried in a hat that says best pop. My dad is buried in a baseball cap.

Because he was just like, F everything, man. I don't care. He's like, he wants to like wear the baseball. Like my dad took a picture for his driver's license in a baseball cap. Awesome. My stepfather is buried in a Walt Disney World t-shirt. Fantastic. It says like, I'm your Mickey.

And, and that was it. And, but I will tell you, like, there is. something about being in a funeral home because when no one's there, I think I'm used to being there where, you know, there's a, like, there's a pomp and circumstance you're coming in, people are grieving, there's a lot going on. But in those quiet times, in those in between times, when they're not selling you on anything, we're not showing you. Like, I imagine that is, you know, a place that's a little bit more unexamined than we probably even realize. Like you're saying, like there's a closet full of clothes. And not only that, but you get the full attention of the

walking you around. So I'm like, tell me about everything in here. And I was like, what I realized is, if, you know, so the book opens and like I walks into a funeral home is carrying a blue suit. And it's a suit he wants to be buried in just exactly what I saw that day. But what I realized that day is if you go to a bank and you open up a new bank account, there's a file that's filled out and paperwork that's done. Government wants to track you, they'll find you. You go to the UPS store and open up a peo box. There's paperwork done. the government needs to find you, they can figure it out and track you down. You know, there's like Wi-Fi cookie jars now. Tell you who stole the last chocolate chip, right? But if you take the outfit that you're going to be buried in and you secretly sew something inside that suit and you give it to the local funeral mortician and he puts it in his closet with the padlock on it, you have the ultimate hiding space that no one will ever track.

And basically that's what happens. The guy walks in, hands it over, hide something in it. He goes back to his motel room. They're like, where is it? He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. They shoot him dead. And basically, the suit winds up in the hands of no one that you would ever expect. I just ruined chapter one of the viper for you, but that's chapter one. I mean, I'm already in. That's great.

I love that. Now, Zig is a mortician. Like, Zig is one of your characters here in the book. And this idea that, now, I forget if I'm misremembering it, but like, does Zig work at the Dover Air Force Base or, okay, so the Dover Air Force Base, the most secretive, a funeral home in the world or the country? In the whole country. So I do a lot of work with the USO.

They bring over, you know, in the USO, they bring over thriller writers. I mean, they actually, like, we went, we went the day after the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders and like the MMA fighters. And then it was like a bunch of authors. I went after, I went after football players and models. And it's hard. It's hard. Yeah.

It's hard. My friend was like, can you tape the audible sigh when you walked in the room? Like, I want to hear how it all just went down. They keep asking me. go with all the models. They keep being like, you're a model, right? 100%. You should, by the way, go. Anyone should go.

The USO is one of the best experiences I've ever been in because they take care of you, but one of the things I love is they do want to get people pumped about you being there. And when I went, we were there with Rob Wrigal, who was on the Daily Show, shooting pieces for the Daily Show, but

Horatio Sands was with us as well. And I guess the only thing they could get their hands on was a movie called boat trip, which might be routinely viewed as not the best film, but every serviceman that we met had gotten it from like the store. Everyone knew boat trip. I was signing boat trip DVDs on that door. Whatever they give you. Whatever they give you are, it is the best, like, your worst book is the best book when you're in the desert. Yes. So you're just everything. It's great. Like I remember they had Al Roker's book in the thing and I texted him and I was like, dude, they got

your book here and he's like, oh my gosh, I got that book nowhere, you know, but they got it there and he was like a star. But yeah, so I'm there and that's where I find out about Dover. And I didn't know what Dover was, but you've seen it. It's where all the, those flag-covered coffins when a soldier dies, it comes off the thing and everyone salutes. But what I figured out and what I realize is Dover is where all our fallen soldiers go, but it's also where all our astronauts go, like when the space shuttle exploded. It's where all of the 9-11 victims from the The Pentagon went there. It's also where all of our spies, our 007s around the globe.

When they go on a mission and die, their bodies go to Dover, which means Dover is a place that's filled with secrets. And I love secrets. So I went in there and my main character works out of Dover. And it's just, you know, the morticians there will rebuild someone's jaw and smooth it over with clay for 12 hours because some mother wants to see her son in the coffin one last time. Rebuild someone's hand because a mother says, I want to hold my son's hand one last time. So good luck making a joke at the end of this, you know, description. But like, it's just

like the best of the best of us working on the best of the best of us. And you go there and you're just humble. And I was like, I need to set thrillers in this world because the morticians here, they know the real name of that fake person they just brought into Dover. They know the person whose identity they're hiding. Like I talked to a guy there who was like on 9-11. He all of a sudden, all these bodies you're coming in. He's putting, literally putting Humpty Dumpty together, putting pieces of people trying to figure who's who. And the FBI comes in and they surround this one body he's working on. He has no idea what's going. He's like, why are you so interested in this one body? And he's like, this is the guy flying the plane. And that's who he realized he's working on. So these guys have

the first-hand view to see things like nothing else. And I'm a forever a Quincy fan. So Quincy to me is like, this is just a cool a version. That is, I mean, you couldn't have, just said a more Gen X statement that you are a huge Quincy fan. Have you looked at the three of us lately? I mean, two bald men and like my beard. I mean, of course. Oh my God.

Quincy. Quincy was, I mean, Quincy was a staple in my house. And it was like, CSI before CSI. Of course. Quincy was, Quincy used to be like the word Xerox.

You would just be like, what are you, Quincy? Like, right. And I remember like 10 books ago making like a Quincy joke in a book, like shut up Quincy or something. And all these Gen Xers like a course were like going on my Instagram. I'm going on this. Be like, represent baby. Keep it live.

Meltser. It was just like the cult was alive and well. What I loved about Quincy too was I was so familiar with Jack Klugman from the awkward. Right? And it was like, oh, actors can do different things. I think that was like my first realization. Like he's totally different.

He's not Oscar. A hundred percent. I'm like, that guy is two people officially. and one is serious and one is funny and it was mind-blowing. I can't believe that we have not done a Quincy remake. I mean, I guess right, Jason, their CSI. By the way, I have pitched it.

Not only like, I have 100%. I pitched like every Gen X show over again. And I don't even tell them because if they're younger than me, they don't know. And if they're old, like, unless they're perfectly our age, most of them, you know how Hollywood is. They don't even know. They don't care.

In a world in which we can have an equalizer movie franchise and TV show, How can, why wouldn't we have a Quincy, a Quincy show? Well, someone just wrote me when we announced our book tour, someone wrote to me and said, are you familiar with the show Quincy? I'm like, I've based my life on it. That's not even a simple question to me. Well, I mean, how do you get access here?

Because I was thinking about this too. Like, you've been writing for a very long time. And, you know, I talked to you about the biggest fan that I've ever made for you, I believe, is I was reading your book. My dad was visiting. out of town. He read it. And now my dad is like, text me like, you get this one. You get this. My dad is like devoured. You text me. You text me. I love that. Yeah. And, and like, I just was home for Thanksgiving. He's like, you got to read this one now.

And I was like, great. And like, so, but it's like you, I think you cross this line of, you know, you're incredibly appealing on all these levels, right? You, you can get the people who love comics. You can get the people who love, you know, real history. And you have this like amazing voice and, characterization to write, you know, dramatic thrillers, but you also get real information and you go deep. How do you get the trust of these people or get into these spots because no one else is getting there, right? I mean, like, how do you have that fixer in your phone? Yeah, I mean, the truth is, I think sometimes it's just no one's as nerdy as I am to ask for these things. Like, right?

Like, most people are like, take me to the front lines and show me how you kick indoors. And I'm like, can you show me the Quincy version of yourself? Like, so that's part of it. But the other thing is, is some of it is just being nice, right? If someone calls you up and says, hey, and you know, you've done it for roles. Like, hey, I'm doing a medical show. Can I just follow you around for like half a day? Like, 99% of people say yes.

The benefit I had is some of the books became popular in D.C. And so, like, I got a letter one day from President George H.W. Bush. I got a letter from Bill Clinton. And they were like, we read your books. And I'm like, oh. And then I was like, oh, shit. And of course, I thought it was fake. I thought the letter was fake.

Because when I used to work in, I was an intern. My first internship ever was in the Senate Judiciary Committee. And we used to take the pen signing machines. And I would take the Senate Judiciary Stationery. And I'd sign the senator's letter. And I'd write to my friends and tell them they were being deported. Because I'm like, what am I going to do? So I just thought this is someone playing the joke.

So I called the office. And I'm like, hey, man, I got a, there's someone there in the president's office. And it said, because I said, can you send us a. a signed book. And I'm like, someone wants to sign book. They go, oh, you got the president's letter. Wow. This is real? And so I was like not stupid. I said, I wrote them back and said, hey, I want to do research on presidents. Can I come see what your life is like? And they had left the White House. So I'm like, can I come see you after the White House? And both of them said, yes, because what are they doing? I'm like, how bored are you that your life is so boring now that you're

writing to me? And that helped. Like, because once you have that, then the Secret Service is like, go, if the president trusts you, then I'll talk to you. Yeah. And then if the Secret Service talks to you now that, you know, you can get the CIA and the FBI. And so it's just like these people know each other. And that it just starts from people just being genuinely nice. Can you tell us something interesting about like the witness protection program? Because I think that that is something that, you know, we understand it in a grand scheme of things.

We'll see it in a movie like one battle after another or we'll see it in these things. But like. Which was such a good movie. I just saw by the way last week. Love it. It's so good. I got to see it in VistaVision out here, which was really fun. But I mean, it seems so kind of made up. I guess in my mind, I always thought mobsters. That's where mobsters go. But it's hard. How do you fit in in that world? It's the college tour episode of Sopranos. Yes. The Sopranos episode, that college tour episode is what I firmly believe is what has informed the witness protection program for the last decade. Right. And I became obsessed with it because we're all obsessed with exactly that because you can't help but ask the question, what if it was me? And we all have this weird fantasy in the back of our heads, even if you love your life, to be like, could I start it all over from nothing? Like, what does that mean?

And there's like something sexy and tantalizing. So I became obsessed with it. I will tell you, I've done the White House to Supreme Court. I've done the secret tunnels below the Capitol. I've done the tunnels below Disney World. I don't think anything except for Disney, which was hard to get into. The witness-producing problem was one of the hardest places ever to research because people's lives are on the line. Right.

It's not just your dumbass like, oh, I want to go and screw around the White House. And so the thing that blew me away is just a pure history of it. So they said to me, yes, the witness protection program is created for mobsters, right? We got a mobsters to turn on themselves, protect them so we can go. And I'm like, great, I know that. I've seen the Tony Soprano episode. But then eventually, guess what happened? They arrested most of the mobsters.

So now it's not like crime was done. and like Batman wins, guess what happens? New criminals are like, I want that turf. So guess who started becoming the number one person in the witness protection program? It was gang members. They started putting gang members away. So all these gang members were now

in the witness protection program. And then guess what happened? Those started shutting down. Like they weren't the same. Now the number one group, according to my source, who's in the witness protection program, are accountants. Because that's the frigging world we live in now.

And I was just like, I am writing about that. Like, this is awesome to me. Like, and just that idea that you can, you know, because I'm like, can you really change someone's face by giving them a nose job? No, you cannot. Like anyone like, when we were kids, we were like, oh, obviously that's like quicksand. It totally works. But the witness protection program is awesome. And these guys are really good at what they do. The problem is all the people that are in it miss something about their lives. Right. And if you miss one thing about your life, Same thing as in one battle after another.

Like, you can't, you can't hide away. Like, that calling eventually gets to you. And that's what, that's what fucks everybody up. It's not the program. It's the person in there just says, I need to see blank. Maybe an old girlfriend or an old wife or someone wants to have sex with someone, but someone's got, you know, that's what screws it out. And you think you can kind of, yeah.

Those tethers that keep you connected to your old life. Those, you know, and that's the thing is like, because in our lifetime, I'm thinking of people like Henry Hill or. Whitey Bulger or those kind of people Wait, was Whitey Bulger in Witness Protection or was he just hiding? Can I tell you, I've never told this for it. Whitey Bulger at one point, I got a tip that someone

told me they knew where Whitey Bulger was and I couldn't tell anyone. And I'm like, and I'm literally like, what am I supposed to do this? And I will tell you in the end, it was totally wrong and it was completely not. But it was a really good source and a really good spot. And I was like, but yeah, he wasn't in witness production. He just ran. He was just hiding.

He was hiding. He was good. Yeah, oh boy, was he good. But that's like what I was going to say is like the, like the world used to be so much bigger and more. You could disappear into it. And so much of the world now is online, on camera. We are living in a world which it would be very difficult, I feel like, to disappear because everybody is existing constantly publicly, you know. That's, well, now I'm not going to ruin the plot of the viper, but that's a key part of it. Right. Like witness protection back in the old days was just give someone a new driver's license and someone would move new to your neighborhood and you wouldn't know much about them. But as the world changes, anytime someone moves to your neighbor, guess what we all do? We Google them. We check them out. And if there's nothing there, then we're like, oh, that's even more suspicious. So, you know, they have to now figure out how to, and they've gotten really good at giving you long historical backgrounds. Because if there is nothing from back then, you're like, something's wrong. But what we're,

we are all of us can you know go on zillow and know what our neighbors paid for their house and what they bought and where they drive and how much they paid for their car and what their wife makes and we got it all so good luck hiding in today's world and the viper and one of the key parts of it is how do you do it really well how do you how do you disappear from the government today yeah i mean this i i love this uh but i guess the question that i want to ask though is you know there's been a lot of interesting stuff going on the comic book world we've been talking about this for a while Are you working on anything in the D.C. world right now? Kind of?

Yes. Kind of. All right. But also I feel like, but also I feel like you're inside of the Marvel ecosystem as well. So that's, I can say, I am, I am working on a new Marvel project. Okay. Great. Okay.

Okay. Oh, interesting. All right. But I can tease that. Okay. You can tease that. Can you tease what it is, Thwip, Thwip, Thwip. Wow.

Wow, so subtle. I can't say no. Or maybe snicked, snicked, snicked, but I'm... Go all the special effect. Yeah, do all the sounds. Yeah, no, I mean, I'll say yes to one of those. Yes to one of those. Yes to one of those.

I like this. I like, all right, this is exciting. I just want to, by the way, I want to just live the rest of my life with people who who understand that if I do snicked or I do BAMF or I do what like... I was going to say BAMS. Next. Like, how far we can take understanding and having a conversation with nothing but the sound effects. I mean, oh, it's, what a world to live in.

Because that's how I just find my friends. Like, you know, it's like going out and being like, I said to my son, I'm like, if you find someone and this is, you know, who knows a couple of Legion of superhero home planets, they're just going to be your friend. Yeah, yeah. That's just, you could just find them. And so, like, we should just have like little quizzes. I would just move through life with that and be very happy.

I love this. Bradwell, I'm very excited. We'll be watching anxiously to see what this will be. All right. You can get Viper wherever you get your book. But I can't leave away. Before I go, I got to know, what do you read? I don't want to know what comics you're reading.

What are you reading? Oh, my gosh. You know, this is great. This is a good question right here. I have been very, I've been loving this, the mashups, right? Like the, like, you know, the Deadpool and Batman has been fun. Like, I've been. I read them, I just read them this week.

There was some, I thought Kevin's, Smith's, there was, there was, did you read that story? I haven't read that one yet. Yeah. It's on my desk. And did you read Tom Taylor's? That one was great, too. Yes. Love Tom Taylor.

I also loved the mashups that were happening previous, which was Godzilla versus everybody. Oh, man. There was a bunch of good Godzilla versus each of the Marvel teams. It was a very fun. I read a Predator Marvel one, too, which is like they just get out, which is great. I'm really enjoying Fractions's new Batman run with Jorge Jimenez. I love Jimenez. I love the way he does the, like, like how he dials into stuff on the utility belt.

Like that's inspired. That's one of those ideas. It's like I always think the best continuity things are the things that you go. It's new, but it should have always been there. And I look at that and I'm like, that should have always been there. That's real. Well, that's like the reveal that in absolute Batman that the bat symbol is an axe. That is that moment.

He takes the bat symbol off of his chest and it's an axe is incredible. By the way, do you know how many nerds just got hard on that page when it happened? It was just like how many friends have told me like, did you see when he? took the, I'm like, I know. Like, loved. That book is so good. They're killing that book. I'm also reading, I will say, there's been, I think, a bunch of great stuff.

Wait, what was I? Ghost machine. Come on, Ghost machine. Have you guys been reading our stuff? Ghost machine, is so, I have a good, and I'm not saying it just because I'm part of of Ghost Machine, and I do have a book coming out with Jeff John's next, that'll be out later this year. But their stuff, Red Code is so good.

And Gary Frank's art, obviously, is so, so good. I love, I mean, all the books, and now I'm going to start naming and feeling like I'm bad. I'm leaving people out, but every ghost machine book you should read too. They're great. I love that. I love it. I was thinking that there's a great test time for, I mean, I'm going back to Batman for a second. I've also been a big fan of what Scott Snyder's been doing.

And they have the absolute Joker, I think, is coming up right now or something like that. I've really loved just because one of my favorite artists is Somni. So the Batman and Robin, Mark Wade, Chris Somni book, I think is unreal. If you went to my kitchen right now, it's on my island because I want my son. Like this art, you know, I said to Wade when I saw him, I'm like, this art is so beautiful. It's incredible. Like when he does that Robin, that young Robin, it's so, I'm like, it's the breath of fresh air. It is exactly.

It reminds me of Michael Turner. When I first saw Turner, it just, it had movement without moving. And I was like, how is he doing this? It is incredible. Like every flip, everything. It's just so good. I can't recommend his book that he did with his wife, the All Ages book called Jonna and the Unpossible Monsters.

Yeah, that's a good book. And that's another character whose movement is so beautifully drawn in that book. Incredible. You know, I've been really just trying to get my kids into stuff. So I've been trying to read with them a little bit right now and just trying to find what they're connecting to, which is interesting because I have been having a harder time than I thought I was going to have with my kids. How old are they?

They are 9 and 11. They have just gotten in majorly into Marvel. And so I'm like, I'm trying. Can I, I have one. I have one. Just because it's Chris Somni, I'm going to shout out Thor the Mighty Avenger. Well, yeah, that's great.

Have they read Hilo? Wait, have they read Hilo by Judd, Winnick? No, these are good. Give them Hilo. Give them Hilo for sure. A nine years old, that's a gimmy. They're going to love Hilo. That Hilo is a no-brainer.

Not Marvel, but Bone is a great. Bone was good. I will, again, I'm sure they're reading Dogman. Like, that stuff is a goal. Yeah, oh, Dogman. I mean, Dogman is like nonstop. That, yeah, that's huge. Dogman and, and Captain Underpants, like, Pilky, Dave is one of my dearest friends.

Oh, Pilky is like a big, we just got like the boy, underpants, boy. It's not even Captain Underpants. It's like, it's a boy in an underpants. Yeah, it's like, Dave is a dear friend of mine. He's come to my house because, and my, like, he's literally, my son is, like, loves Dave Pilking. It's like, Dave Pilke is the greatest writer of all time. And I'm like, you know I'm a writer, right? Like, you understand what I do for, but he's, but for that age, that's, that's, but for that age,

that's the perfect jump-on point. Yeah, because that's what they are devouring. And so I'm just trying to let them find their little things. Oh, I got one more. Oh, yeah, please. Batman Brave and Bold. That's what my son read when he was younger. He couldn't read like, now that he's like, once you hit 13,

as far as I'm concerned, you're ready for anything. Because you and I, we all three of us read. At 13, it was like, whether it was Dark Night or Teen Titans or like, we were all reading it. But at nine years old, my son read the Batman Brave and Bold series and just put them but it's beautiful and it's a fun book. And there's like team ups like a Scooby-Doo team-up. He loved the team-ups. Okay.

It wasn't just the Brahm-Bel. It was like the Scooby-Doo team-ups with Batman and they, he loved them. All right, this is good. This is what I'm doing. We are making our plans to go see, uh, Avatar to just watch the trailer for the Avengers. Like that's why we're going to see Avatar 3, a movie we have not seen one or two of. I mean, I have. They have not.

And there's like, they just want to see this trailer, which I'm also. I'm thrilled that they're into it. Most nine-year-olds now are like, you know, my kids love all those movies and we'll go to them. But nine-year-olds now are like, I'm not watching the new ones because I got to watch these other 25 ones. I know. Wow. Yeah, so it's been interesting. I've been enjoying watching them get into it.

They met John Cena in costume as the peacemaker, which truly was highlight. By the way, what a set to take them to. Oh, you took him at Comic-Con. I was at Comic-Con. And he just was wearing the costume. And man, oh, man. It was the best thing. Yeah, you can't.

I mean, that's the, yeah, you can't. compare like you win you win that like i of course took my children who are older to meet eric from the boys and so like so you know eric is a dear friend of mine is a show and so he i told him like listen man you got to impress my kids my boys you know they watch the show they love it so on last scene of the boys and hewie's mom in one of the scenes is like she's literally reading one of my books and i just sat there and i just sat there like this i knew it was coming he told me it was common. And I was like, it's amazing how much bullshit as dads we will pull off to impress our kids. Like, I don't care about anything. I didn't even took my kids, you know, it's the White

House or anything like that. You can pull off. But I pull out and I just sat there trying to be cool. And my kids both turned to me. And I, and I was like, okay, how's that Dave Pilke? How's that? Oh, I love it. All right. This is great, Brad. Book Viper is out now. And I'm sure by the time this is out, it's going to be another bestseller. This is what you do. You just rack them up. Paul, I'm looking at my calendar right now, and it's telling me that the book is already out and is already a huge best sign.

That's what I'm saying. This was great. I'm excited about the secret project, and always great talk to you. We've talked to you soon. You got it, brother. Thank you, Brad. I love him. He's the best. And if you want to buy his brand new book, The Viper, just click on the link in the show notes to this episode.

Now, it is almost the end of the show, which means it is finally time to announce our next movie. Next week we'll be saying goodbye. to Monkeybone and returning to No Place Like Home. That's right. We were watching 1985's Return to Oz. This was Disney's sort of sequel to the Wizard of Oz that was based in the book, not the original movie. So yeah,

a tricky sequel indeed. It stars for Ruzabalk as Dorothy in her feature film debut. And IMDB describes the plot as Dorothy, save from a psychiatric experiment by a mysterious girl, is somehow called back to Oz when a vain witch and the gnome king destroy everything that makes the magical land beautiful. Yikes. Rotten Tomatoes gives this film a 59% score on the Tomato Meter and Joel Baltake from the Philadelphia Daily News wrote,

Return to Oz is very much a great film, an adventure ahead of its time. I doubt it will be appreciated now. It's a kind of movie whose greatness will be discovered in 10 years. Well, guess what, Joel? You're wrong! Listen to the trailer. Now, fly away with Dorothy and her wonderful new friends, the Gump, half-moose, half-flying sofa. A talking chicken. Where are we anyway? Jack and TikTok the mechanical soldier to save the kingdom of Oz from the evil princes and a king with a body of rock. In a magical new movie, return to Oz. You can stream Return to Odds on Disney Plus.

Oh, you can rent it on Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video, or Fandango at Home. And as you know, I am always going to shout out the digital media services offered to you by your local public library like Hoopla and Canopy and Libby, even though Return to Oz is not on these services, they are still great resources to find movies, TV, music, audiobooks, ebooks, and comics for free. That is it for Last Looks. If you listen to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, rate and review us.

It makes a different, leave a comment for us. And if you're following us, make sure you have automatic downloads turned on. It helps a show. And we appreciate us. You can visit us on social media at HDTGM. And a big thank you to our producer, Scott, Sonny, Molly Reynolds, engineer Casey Holford, our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum, and of course, we'll forever be grateful to the one and only Averal Hallie. If you have not seen it yet, there's a beautiful write-up of her, a beautiful celebration of her life.

We posted it in the Discord. We also have it on the How Did This Get Made Instagram page. We will see you next week when we travel down the decaying remains of the Yellow Brook Road as we return to Oz.