How Did This Get Made? - Zack Snyder’s Justice League w/ Griffin Newman, David Sims (HDTGM Matinee)

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

In a special HDTGM and Blank Check crossover episode, Griffin Newman and David Sims join Paul and Jason to discuss Zack Snyder’s Justice League aka The Snyder Cut. They talk all about the differences between the theatrical version and the Snyder cut, Cyborg’s fleshed out arc, the 'knightmare' epilogue, the Icelandic folk song, and much more. (Originally released 3/25/21) HDTGM Spring Tour 2025 tickets are now on sale for Austin, Denver, Seattle, Boise, San Fran, Portland, & LA at hdtgm.com.Order Paul’s book about his childhood: Joyful Recollections of TraumaCheck out new HDTGM movie merch over at teepublic.com/stores/hdtgmJoin the HDTGM conversation on Discord: discord.gg/hdtgmPaul’s Discord: discord.gg/paulscheerVisit Paul’s YouTube page: youtube.com/paulscheerFollow Paul’s movie recs on Letterboxd: letterboxd.com/paulscheer/Friend Zone w/ Paul and Rob Huebel live on Twitch every Thursday 5pmPT / 8pmET: www.twitch.tv/friendzoneLike good movies too? Listen to Unspooled with Paul and Amy Nicholson: https://www.unspooledpodcast.com/Listen to The Deep Dive with Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael: www.thedeepdiveacademy.com/podcastWhere to find Paul, June, & Jason:@PaulScheer on Instagram & Twitter@Junediane on IG and @MsJuneDiane on TwitterJason is not on social media Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using the link: siriusxm.com/hdtgm.

Today's episode is being broadcast in 320 megabits per second to preserve How Did This Get Made's creative vision. We saw Zack Snyder's Justice League, so you know what that means. How did this get made? Let's follow in the mediocrity of subpar art. Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made? Hello, people of Earth. I have gone by many names. Some have called me Martian Manhunter.

Others call me tall John Shear. Welcome to How Did This Get Made? And hold on to your mother boxes. Today we are talking about Zack Snyder's The Justice League. It's an epic, considerate, bat-her return to the Superman. Here's the premise. Batman and Wonder Woman team up with the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg to protect the Earth from an evil that threatens to eradicate life on the planet.

Uh, in doing so, they must, uh, revive Superman. And it all ends in Russian. Now that's the plot. Now, if you're wondering what is Zack Snyder's? Justice League let me explain it as quickly as I can possibly do it Zack Snyder he had planned on a five film series in the DC universe. That's Man of Steel Batman versus Superman a Justice League trilogy But because of Batman versus Superman and Suicide Squad not really working people being upset with it,

they decided they would bring in somebody to make it a little bit lighter, a little bit more fun. So they brought in Chris Terrio, who is responsible for Rise of Skywalker as well as Argo. They shoot the movie, they finish it, they're like, okay, this is pretty good. 90% complete. Warner Brothers watches it, they say this is unwatchable. They hire Joss Whedon to come in and rewrite the script and help with the reshoots. During this time, Zack Snyder suffers

a terrible family tragedy. He leaves the project, Joss Whedon then gets full control of the production. Uh, he adds 80 pages to the script. Uh, only is this 10% of Snyder's original footage, uh, changes the score and the movie comes out. And, uh, basically people are like, at best it's a Frankenstein movie. It's just, it, in Congress tones, people don't really love it at all. The movie kind of tanks, they go away from the franchises.

They go into these individual films and then online, this growing movement of release the Snyder cut comes out. It seems like a joke. It seems like this is never going to happen. They get 180,000 signatures on some virtual petition and all of a sudden in 2019 we hear that it's it's happening the Snyder cut is happening It initially is gonna involve some reshoots It's gonna buy cost about thirty million dollars to finish Zach Snyder comes in, he adds five minutes or less of new footage, and the budget is now at $70 million

to complete the film. That is what we watched, four hours and two minutes of a film that was 90% complete via, you know, not including VFX shots. So this is the version, and this is what we're gonna get into today, and there's no better person, and there's no better people to talk about this with today

than our guests, but also my co-host, please welcome Jason Manzoukas. Oh, wow. Um, this is... This was wild. This was a wild... This has been a wild journey to watch, um, the... As you said, like the progression of Zack Snyder's, like larger DCEU,

the creation of it as it's been going. I have not enjoyed it as it's been going along. I am a, I was a Marvel kid, not a DC kid, but I'm fully open to DC movies. I liked the Richard Donner Batman. I mean, Superman, rather. I enjoyed Nolan's Batman. Um, but these movies, Man of Steel,

and then just in preparation for this, this is the nightmare that I've decided to live in. In preparation for this conversation, I have watched the Batman v Superman extended cut that is three hours long. Ooh, mistake, a mistake. And is like, it might as well be a concrete, brutalist piece of architecture.

It is so insane. And then I've watched Whedon's cut, and I watched the Snyder cut. I did that. So, so, so, for those of you complaining that you just watched the Snyder cut, fuck you. I watched all of it.

I did too, and I'm excited to talk to you. And I've got takes. I've got takes for days. Bring these guests. Let's do this. I cannot wait. Uh, this is gonna probably be a different episode. I have a feeling it's gonna be a different episode. I suspect it is. And never have I been so thankful that June Diane Rafeel is out of town

and unable to record because we would never have a chance to do this episode. She would not stand for it. And rightly so, rightly so. I don't think she would even let you watch this movie at home. I don't believe so. Yes, so. Don't you have, doesn't she have parental blocks on certain channels for you?

I, she does it on my computer and on my phone. I can only watch YouTube Kids. Um, look, I will say that my history with June in superhero movies is very... I've been banned from YouTube Kids. The only... Well, that's because you make those weird like... Weird Mario walkthrough videos. All right, so, yes, June's only,

the only two superhero movies I think June has seen, well, definitely Wonder Woman, definitely Ant-Man, and she fell asleep during Guardians of Galaxy 1. That's where I know where she's at. So this would really be a tricky one for her to get into. But we have decided to crossover, uh, share the space with one of our favorite podcasts. I'm gonna introduce them both individually,

but talk about their podcast first of all. You know them as, uh, together as the hosts of Blank Check, which reviews directors' complete filmographies, episode to episode, specifically auteurs whose early successes afforded them a rare blank check from Hollywood to produce passion projects. Each new mini-series kind of breaks them down, gets into great detail.

Right now, they're doing this amazing bracket, directors against directors, going up against each other, which is just fantastic, but individually. Individually, they are also hashtag the two friends. Yes, they are. Don't worry, they are also hashtag the two friends. And let's not forget that sometimes those checks, they cash and sometimes they bounce, baby.

Please welcome our first guest, Griffin Newman. You know him as Arthur on The Tick or Waddo, on the George Lucas Talk Show. He also lends his voice to the upcoming Masters of the Universe revelation on Netflix. Griffin, how are you? I'm doing all right. You know, Jason was throwing down his bona fides for how DP had gone into Snyder in the last week.

I did all of that plus Man of Steel and Dawn of the Dead. So I feel like I spent- Oh wow, Dawn of the Dead? Yeah, I want to go back to the beginning. I want to go back to the beginning. Yeah, you gotta see the whole thing. All right, and our next co-host for today's show, also a host of Blank Check, please welcome David Sims.

He's a film critic at The Atlantic. And his interview with Chloe Zhao is excellent. If you have not read that, she directed No Man Land. So please welcome David Sims. How are you, David? Thank you. I'm doing well. It was fun.

I feel like Chloe and I mostly talked about her dogs. We kept swinging back around to her dogs in that interview. That's. I was fun. I feel like Chloe and I mostly talked about her dogs. We kept swinging back around to her dogs and then that's what I remember most. I would like to say that I watched the Snyder cut. And then I said to my wife, like, you know, should, you know, maybe I throw on the, the, the Joss Whedon version, like, cause I only saw it once. And she was like, I don't, I don't want you to do that. And so all I did was I watched the Snyder cut. But look, I saw it all before.

I've seen all this stuff. We should say that David has a one month old. So the fact that you were able to even steal four hours to watch this is impressive. We pulled you out of paternity leave and we appreciate you doing this. And it's something that we are excited to have you here. I wanna, before we even get into this film,

is there any hot takes on where you rank like the DC universe? I'm opening up to everybody. Jason, I know we talked about you already, more of a Marvel guy as am I. I have not enjoyed the Marvel, I've not rather enjoyed the DC movies almost at all. Like they have been,

I would say largely for me, with the single exception of Wonder Woman 1, they have been unexceptional, uninteresting, and kind of overwhelmed by this Zack Snyder gloom. I'm gonna disagree with you right off the bat and say Aquaman. Sh. She's a man actually prey and Shazam are all I really I Those are movies to me that are they are good in comparison to these other terrible movies

But if but none of them I think what I put up against Thor Ragnarok well that's a hard that's a that's a that's why why why can't they do why can't they do why can't they get there that because that's like we're still in the beginning we're not in the 10-year anniversary yet I mean Thor Ragnarok came right after the cheese is acting like they're not at the beginning that's why that DC is like drowning the marketplace with stuff. And we can get into it. But I mean, my hottest of hot takes is, and I hate to say this because I believe that the only reason we have the Snyder

cut is because of Toxic Fandom. And because Toxic Fandom was rewarded, which is now only going to embolden toxic fans because toxic fandom was rewarded we got this and I'm here to say the Snyder cut is a better version of the movie Justice League full stop yes yes yes yes far better well yeah. I mean, it's also four hours long and has like multiple moments of like minutes long exposition dumps, but nonetheless I'm in I want to know what I want to at least I want to break it down

But I want to hear where you guys to stand David Griffin about on Just the DCU where you're at. What do you feel, what do you like, what don't you like? I just, let me, before we get into this, I just wanna state that we had sort of fallen in backwards into sort of doing an EarthSats DC Universe mini-series on our podcast, even though we don't really, like do franchises like that. And it was because of the weirdness of the fact

that Warner Brothers seemed to be handing the whole thing over to Snyder, you know? Like we're very much about like director visions and the weirdness of, oh, Marvel is so managed. It's Feige, he has control. He hands it to different people. Everything has to fit in together. And DC went like, everyone reverse engineer your movies

from the template that Snyder has set out was fascinating to us. So we did BVS, we thought that was gonna be a one-off. Then when Suicide Squad came out so weird, we were like, I guess we have to do this. And that set us on the track. And we've been trying to move away from doing it because it does feel like DC has diversified more,

the films are becoming more individual, more separate from each other. You know, it's like we don't need to cover them all as if they're one thing. And I had been pushing, knowing that David was gonna go onto a months long paternity break, we have to do Snyder Cut in some way

and David would just go, no, no, no, no. I get five words into, but what if we, no, absolutely not. I'm not taking time, I'm not, I mean, I get five words into, but what if we know? Absolutely not. I'm not taking time. I'm not, I'm not. They announce, I figured this was coming in like May. Remember this, this thing kind of just came out. I mean, obviously we knew it was coming, but then they suddenly were just like,

yeah, it's coming out mid-March. Like it's, it's just going to drop. Like I thought it was coming in the summer. They announced it's coming like three weeks after my daughter's birth. I'm like, I absolutely will not watch a four hour movie. I forget, what I think I didn't realize was newborn babies are very demanding,

but they are very immobile. So you are actually kind of watching a lot of TV. As Paul, you might have read. It's the best time because they don't require, they require a lot, but also not so much. It's like, you are grounded. It's not a movement. Yeah, you are grounded. It's like, you are grounded. Yeah, you are grounded. You are grounded and you are working,

but there is a simplicity to it. Once I start moving, it's a whole nother ball game. Yeah, you're gonna get- Wait, so are you saying your baby's first movie experience was the Snyder Cut? No, because my baby's had, I mean, I'm watching a lot of movies right now, but one of my baby's first, I mean, I'm watching a lot of movies right now, but one of my baby's

first movie experiences was the Snyder. That's like my two week old baby. She started hiccuping about two hours into it and there was like an hour of what if your baby's first world is mama box. Yes. She calls my wife Martha for some reason. I look, I should, the Martha dig is so easy. I shouldn't do it. Um, it's good. Yeah, I know. I know. Look, I, I remember seeing Batman versus Superman, colon Dawn of justice at the press screening. I was sitting with a

bunch of critics. If you guys remember, there's a scene in that movie where the flash emerges into a dream that Bruce Wayne is having and yells stuff at him. Uh, do you guys remember what I'm talking about? I'm too early. Right, right. And it's a scene that is dropped in without explanation. And yes, we're all smart enough to know like, yeah, this is probably some, you know, larger universe play than that scene, but it is unexplained. And we all burst out laughing. Like that's how we felt in 2016. Just all these critics. I remember

just sitting in a row. Just we watched this. We're like, what, what does this thing think it is? Like, what is this doing? And I'm thinking five years from now, the, I'm not going to call it turnaround, but the sort of evolution I have made on Zack Snyder's whole sincere deal with this DC universe is surprising to me. That's how I'll put it. A good friend of mine last night, who is a very big comic book fan, reached out to me and he's like, what did you think of the Snyder cut?

And I said, I think he only should make four hour long movies. Because there was something about this movie that felt like, oh, this is the most complete version of this director that I've ever seen. And I was there for it. I feel like the way he cut it up was, like, it recognized that, okay, you could watch it in parts. It was, it, I don't know, there was something about the way

that this movie gelled that worked for me. Like on a, sure, there's things to make fun of or whatever, but there is something that really works here. And I was impressed. It is just, especially if you watch it in juxtaposition with the Joss Whedon cut or actually with Batman v Superman, it is simply more cohesive, more interesting, more successful, more successfully plotted.

You know, like the Justice League movie is confoundingly plotted, right? In the release cut, in the theatrical cut, right? The theatrical cut was like, truly two hours of nonsense. Like, it really was... The Russian family, like, even like... The populated Russian town, that Steppenwolf is the single bad guy.

They're both, you know, in two hours, they're trying to build a team, fight a world building evil, resurrect Superman. Introduce three heroes. Right, right. Which have essentially not been in movies before. Yes, origin story characters who they just simply don't.

They just show, instead, they just show up and are now there. Cyborg might be one of my favorite characters now. Like, literally. Here's how much I enjoyed the Snyder cut. To a degree, I was like, the minute it started, my first note is, fuck you, it's in four three. Yeah.

I was like, fuck you. How dare you make me watch a different aspect ratio? 20 minutes later, I'm like, I don't care. I don't care that it's in 4.3. This is infinitely better at explaining what's happening to me and tonally consistently, tonally consistent throughout, which was, which the score helped,

which his editing helped. I don't know, like it just worked better. I stopped taking notes. I stopped taking notes because like I'm here. I'm in, like every now and then I might jot down one thing, but I was like, you have pulled me into a world. And now I also get people like, oh, it's CGI and slow-mo. But it felt like I was going over to someone's house

to have a meal that I'd never had before, right? Like, yes, there are a lot of things that I may not have picked myself. There are a lot of things that may not even be my favorite thing. But in presenting, being presented in a loving way, I was open to trying everything there,

and I found myself liking it more than I ever thought I would've. Like... Okay, I need to share my hottest take... Okay. ...that I've been sitting on. And I feel like... The kid Griffin Newman coming in.

Ha-ha-ha! I'm overflowing with hot... Already we're touched on so many things that I'm just like, champion at the bit to... Please, just interrupt. Champ away, my friend. But I will say right off the bat, because you were asking for a previous history,

David and I are much like you guys, we're more Marvel zombies than DC fans. I think I like DC a little more than David does. Like I actually read more DC comics, I think, at our comic reading peak than you, because you never really read DC titles at all, right? Only stuff like when Grant Morrison did All-Star Superman. You know, when people would come in and have like

some sort of like contained take, but anytime I tried to swoop in and be like, you know what, I'm going to read all the Batman titles, I would tap out really fast cause I was just like, I can't, you know, like I reading comic books if you really want to do it, it's this, it's very time consuming. You got a lot, a lot of shit to keep up with. And so like Marvel was always as much as I could handle overwhelmed by the concept

of reading comic books. As a child. As a child. As a child. Without a cell phone, I imagine, or internet. I'm just imagining you as a young boy on the streets of New York City going into the comic shop to buy your comics.

I have no reason to believe. Waving his arms around. There are too many titles. There's too many titles. How am I supposed to keep up with this? I'm just a young boy living in New York City. You know, I know where you're going, Jason, but I was a young boy in New York City.

I did go to the comic shop until nine years of age. And then I went to the comic shop in London, where I lived. What? And then you were like, whoa, give me that Judge Dredd. You're like, give me those English. Captain Britain. Yeah, exactly. I can't read to read Dennis the Menace, Oh, give me that Judge Dredd. You're like, give me these, give me those English. Yeah, exactly.

I can't read to read Dennis the Menace, but the different one. I did read the Beano. I forget if we've talked about this on my podcast, Griffin. Anyway, Griffin, can you wait, what was, can you have a take? Griffin, what's your take? So I was just gonna say, I was less of a DC guy,

but the three characters, the three titles I read semi-regularly and kept up with the universes of were Flash, Batman, and Teen Titans. So like three members of this team essentially comprise the only things I ever seriously followed in the DC universe, right? I'm extensively in the tank for. In terms of my rankings, it was always like Wonder Woman's probably my favorite modern superhero movie point blank.

Like I prefer Wonder Woman to all the MCU movies I think. But then I put pretty much every other MCU movie in between there. I'd say like Shazam is close to Wonder Woman for me on that tier. And then I like Birds of Prey and Aquaman with some reservations. And then everything else I could pretty much leave behind.

Right? I love Aquaman. I'm a huge Aquaman fan. Thank you, David. To me, I'm as excited to have you on because I also, there's something about Aquaman that I will say, and I've talked about this, it is in many respects what a child would want a superhero movie to be, and I love it.

I just love it because it's like, let's do that, and let's do that and let's do, and there's something so pure. And again, like this movie, it's a pure vision. And I think you can, like for what, Joker's a whole other story, but I don't mind that when people with pure visions get involved in this, they make their version.

And sometimes it really works. And Aquaman for me really worked in that way. I have to say something before Griffin says his take just before I lose the thread. I do think with DC sincerity is crucial. Those heroes are much more sincere. They are these very simple heroes, not in terms of characterization, but just like in terms of what they stand for. Marvel was the second tier, the second guys coming in and offering more commentary and more grip, but DC there's purity, like you say? So Wonder Woman, Aquaman, these successful movies, usually they were

they were approaching their material very sincerely. And that's why they succeeded, I would say. Yes. And I think the difference for me and I want to make it clear, I like Aquaman just less than David. It's so good. But I watched it. I watched it again recently. It's so I think the thing those two movies do really well is embrace all the silliest aspects of the characters that made them feel

Unadaptable for so long and put a lot of very earnest Appreciation into the sort of pure totemic quality of what they represent, right? And I always just kind of bummed out by the Snyder, like, oh, they hate being heroes. This world is so bleak. It's so dark. I mean, it always just kind of felt like Zack Snyder hates superheroes as a concept to me, you know? And like, even when he was doing Watchmen

and doing press for Watchmen, he kept on saying, like, I would never make a Superman movie. I don't get that guy. These are the kinds of heroes I understand. They're like drunk and they're angry and they're bitter and they're washed up, you know, like, he kind of framed it that way and then the fact that he became the architect of this whole universe

kind of bummed me out, because it is depressively dark view of this thing. And BVS was kind of like, for me, a real breaking point where I was just like, this is like incoherent to me. You know, beyond it feeling oppressive, this thing just like makes no sense. It is just confounding on a scene to scene basis. And my hottest take is that in my prep week,

I watched the ultimate cut and I was like, oh, I get it. Wow. Okay. I don't even know if I like it. I don't know if it's a bridge too far to say that, but like talking about what you said Paul of like you watch the four Hours of this and go maybe you should only make four-hour movies. Yeah, BVS is like Incoherent perplexing two and a half hours and you watch the ultimate cut and you're like this makes sense on its own terms

I understand it and perhaps you can only let Snyder go full Snyder and trying to rein him in at all is a recipe for disaster. Well, that's the mistake that is born out of both of these extended cuts is it illustrates to you that he did, he was the messes that came out. The messes that came out were partially messes because so much had to be extracted to make the, you know, basically, Marvel, Marvel Phase One is 10 movies long to set the stage for,

you know, um, all of these individuals, then bringing them together into teams, then building out, they pop up in each other's movies, little bits here and there, you know, they do a good job of walking you into a constructed world of all of these people and how they're now all going to gel or not gel together. In this sense, they tried to do something similar, but I think Snyder's version of it was, let me just make the movies three plus hours long and we'll get all of those character introductions. We'll get all of those character introductions, we'll get all, we just won't do it in individual movies,

and Warner Brothers was like, nope, we need two hour movies, man. We need two hour movies, and that's too much. Like, they just become... Well, to me, the fact that 90% of this movie was shot, like, I mean, really, it was, I mean, 90% of this movie was done or whatever it was. Yeah, 100% was shot, it was, I mean, 90% of this movie was done or whatever it was.

Yeah, 100% was shot. It was 90% locked, essentially. Right. It was just a VFX. Minus final effects, yeah. So that, to me, it speaks volumes. Like, oh, he shot a four-hour movie. Like, there's no version. I mean, the only, I guess, we're all talking about the same thing. It was like, he made a four-hour, like like how do you make this smaller?

Like, oh, we saw what it is. You can't, like he's not writing within the confines of movie making. No, and this is the most bananas thing to me, which I feel like we need to sort of acknowledge as we get deeper into everything. Obviously the term everyone used for the Joss Whedon cut was Frankensteined, right?

It's, if I dare say it, a cyborged version of a movie. Right? Where they took this much human and they built all these weird robotics around it and they're like, this will be normal, right? This thing will not be cursed. But I do think it is important because the framing of this now is like,

he finally got to make his absolute pure vision of the movie, which I don't think is totally accurate. Because there are two things, one of which you already said, Paul, which is after the response to BVS, which was largely negative, they were at that point, I think, six weeks away from starting filming on Justice League.

They were so bullish on it that they were like, we're going right in. And then the response to BVS was bad, even though it made money, but it that they were like, we're going right in. And then the response to BVS was bad, even though it made money, but I think they felt like, oh, we can't double down on this. So then they like go red alert, Terrio and Snyder rewrite this, make it brighter,

change the look of the movie, like you have to make this lighter. So there was already an adjustment before Snyder started filming all of the footage that finally made it into this film. Friends of mine in the press were brought on set for Justice League. They were shown, they were filming the scene

where Batman and the Flash meet, you know, and it's sort of a joking scene. That's the one that they push so hard. Yes, and they were really pushing to the press, and Snyder included, were like, look, look, okay, you know, this one's gonna be a little lighter. Don't worry. Like, you know, I know Batman versus Superman was a lot.

Like, they were trying to sell like... Batman versus Superman was so, I mean, and this is what it is for, to be considering, if you were to look at these two comics universes, DC and Marvel, unquestionably DC is bright, poppy, like boy scout, ethic gods, it's gods on earth, it's very, it's morality tales, it is a blue sky, with the exception of Batman,

and then Marvel exists in the real world, it is real people who have real problems on top of the fact that they are superheroes. Spider-Man is a kid who can't figure it out, he's really struggling, and then he gets superpowers and has to, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, now. I think also for so long DC had the upper leg

on the sort of bug nuts cosmic shit. I feel like Marvel had less success with that, and a lot of the stuff's been reclaimed now, but like the fourth world stuff, but even just Green Lantern, all these things from early on, it was like the Marvel heroes were grounded and DC was able to deal with like its gods, its aliens, its interdimensional,

its alternate realities, things that Marvel has now caught up to that DC really nailed first. When I watch these movies, it's as if the lesson learned was, okay, Nolan's Batman is all of DC. Like, in these movies, there is no real discernible difference between Gotham, Metropolis, and Central City.

Genuinely. Like, Central City is in the Snyder cut when you get the, when you get to have that scene with Iris, which is an incredible introduction for Flash. And the fact that they cut that out is absurd. Every introduction in this movie is phenomenal. Like phenomenal. Is great and 15 minutes long. Both of those things. It's both of those things. But it's so helpful in understanding and putting this character in context in the team.

It's so helpful. Especially if you're not gonna take the time to do a Flash movie first, a Cyborg movie first, an Aquaman movie first. Like let's admit, another advantage that Snyder Cut has watching it in 2021 is we've seen an Aquaman movie already, right? There's like retroactively heavy lifting done there.

And then it does help that this movie, in the restored version, Flash and Cyborg are the two characters who get the most development and the best introductions and the clearest emotional arcs within the film itself. And they benefit for the movie benefits for having a better understanding. I mean, without a doubt, way for Cyborg,

it's night and day in terms of like how much more you understand about this character's journey and arc comparatively, you know what I mean? Cyborg is literally the heart of the movie in a way. I mean, but I mean, but it's like, but it's the reason why Superman comes back. It's, it is the, all the emotional, all the true, like, big hearted moments.

It's not between the characters saving the day. It really is about like the sacrifice of, the sacrifice of Joe Morton, who, look, this guy, we know, if he's working in a lab, shit is gonna go wrong. I mean, we know this now from Terminator 2. G-Him. No, don't have him near any metal men. It's not good.

But on the other hand, how are you Warner Brothers and you look at this cut and you go, first thing that has to go, all the Joe Morton scenes? Like, Joe Morton's in, like, two minutes of J Joss Whedon that guy's fucking money in the bank. Yeah, so good. Here's the thing. Look, hiring Joss Whedon to make a sequel to Batman versus Superman. Let's say forget that Justice League, they literally have, they make Batman versus Superman and they're like Joss Wh we didn't soup to nuts,

make justice league. That would be a bad decision. That would be a tough thing to pivot. Having him make a movie inside of a movie that was already made is a worst decision. The most insane decision is telling him also, it's gotta be two hours long, 120 minutes, no more, no less, which has been widely reported,

they insisted on for whatever reason. I mean, I will also say, I will say this. Like there's something, I'm a, let's just take away the allegations right now and just talk about, like I'm not trying to separate the artist from the thing. I just wanna just talk about it in a pure way and go, I love Joss Whedon and what he did on Buffy.

I was a big fan. When I first saw The Avengers, I was like, this is good, it's not my favorite, but it was good. Like, I was like, I like it. I really didn't like Age of Ultron. And when I saw what the Russo Brothers did to Civil War, I was like, oh, that's my Avengers movie. Like, that's like, that's how you do a teen movie

in the Marvel Universe that feels like it's got the right tone. My thought was, why do you take the guy who essentially fucks up the team movie in the Marvel Universe and then bring him over to fix up your problem in the DC? You know, it's like, oh, he's already proven that that's not his strong suit.

Like, he messed it up, right? Like, fumbled the ball. Like David and I, David and I are definitely Weedon Avengers fans over Russo Avengers fans. But even still, it is very bizarre to hand that to him after Age of Ultron, which had a similarly complicated reaction to the degree that also Weedon kind of steps away from Marvel and there's this like...

He fought with the studio on that one, whatever. I mean, hiring Weedon was bizarre, is all I'm saying, under any circumstance. It's on multiple levels. It makes like just the idea of bringing anyone in to do it is already gonna be problematic, but somebody who's so totally different is, like... Well, it just speaks to the fact that they were,

I think it sounds like Warners was so panicked at how hopeless and dour and dark Snyder's worldview was, that they were like, let's bring in, you know, like, you watch these two, if you watch, and I don't recommend anybody do this ever, if you watch both the Snyder cut and the Whedon cut, like, back to back, you see how there are reshoots that are, like, keeping a Snyder Aquaman line

and then just change, re-shooting Batman's response line just to be a quip. All Joss does is introduce like Buffy style, Joss Whedon style jokes, quips, you know, ironic eye rolls. You're watching a script polish, but it's in a movie, like rather than just on a page, right? He's like, you know, an infamous script doctor, you know, and punch-up guy who did that for so long

before he had his own success doing his own stuff. And you're like, yes, it feels like you're watching him going through the script page by page and going, what if you added this, what if you added this? But it's like- Something that like Shane Black can do effortlessly for Iron Man 1, and it actually probably... It probably cements why Iron Man 1 works,

and thus we have the MCU. But in this instance, it doesn't make sense at all. Yeah. Proof is in the pudding as far as like, Ben Affleck in this movie, like that, this Batman in the Snyder cut is, I'm like, oh, I like this Batman. That other Batman is bizarre.

I think it's, I don't know. I just feel like it's more consistent. I mean, it's hard to have an actor do one version of the character, and then the rewrite is, they're not even quips. They're out of the voice. I remember one of my friends told me that they did a punch up one time. It was a movie where, or aliens were in the house of this like young teen star.

I forget the name of the movie. I would say it if I remembered it. But aliens in the attic. It might've been aliens. Yeah. I mean, yes. All right. So, and yes, I think it was.

And the idea was that when they shot the movie, the aliens didn't speak any discernible language. And then the studio was like, ooh, we need to now add language, like, as if they were speaking the entire time. So everyone had to come in and, like, generate language around the movie that they were shot to not have them responding to language. Which is, you know, an insurmountable feat. But that's kind of what it feels like here,

where it's like, well, how can he, in one scene, be like the Zack Snyder Batman, and then in another scene be like the Joss Whedon? They're very different characters. Well, it also, it feels like, you know, with most of, like, punch-up jobs, you know, they bring people on right before the movie shoots to go, can you make

this any funnier, right? That's the best and cheapest way to do it. You add the jokes in before the cameras start rolling, right? Then the two things that people tend to do after the fact, if a movie isn't working, a plot points are messy, or you need more jokes or whatever, are how much of this can we fix in editing, in ADR, right? Because we can't change too much of it. Or we only have the budget and the schedule to do like one week of reshoots.

If we could only add five scenes, what are the five scenes we need to add? Or less or more or whatever, right? And this is like, it's like they handed to him and he went, well, if I was there on the day, I would have done this, but obviously we can't. And then went like, no, don't pitch anything, we'll fix it in CGI.

Like it's like it was an animated movie where he was like, yeah, I can't change that now. And they were like, you can, we can bring Affleck in, put in front of a green screen. It's a year and a half later, his drinking problems have risen again, but we'll get the one line from him and then edit it into a previous conversation.

And you're talking about Batman feeling different. As Avlikas said, he was supposed to do his solo Batman movie that he wrote and directed right after this. And he stepped down, and the story that he said recently in interviews is he showed the script to a friend and they went, he went, I don't know, do you think I should do this? And they said, I think the script is good, I think you could make a good movie.

I think if you go through this Batman thing again, you're literally gonna drink yourself to death after what happened on Justice League. And you do feel like, there's a very specific performance in BVS, right? And then here is like, he's a little bit responding to the negativity of BVS and he's trying to get a little bit lighter, right?

And then Justice League is, the Whedon version, is like watching a man who is just dead inside is regretting this. Why did I do Daredevil again? I won an Oscar, what am I doing here? I am now an established director. By the way, trusting a guy that he worked with on Argo too. Like you feel like, okay, I've protected myself

in every possible way, and now I've been, someone pulled the carpet right out from under me, and yeah, and screwed me over. This is the one other thing I want to say about the weirdness of this not being a complete vision even still, is the plan was Chris Terrio had written two complete scripts. There was Justice League Part One and Justice League part two. They were gonna be shot back to back.

And with the trepidation after BVS, they went, let's pull the brakes, only do one now, do two later. So what we're watching now is the four hour cut of what was only supposed to be the first half of a two part movie. There's still a whole second half they never got to. And I think in some ways, like the reshoots

and some re-editing and effects stuff he's done, he's tried to retrofit some of the stuff he would have done in part two into this movie. But like Darkseid was not even supposed to be in this this much. I think they added more Darkseid. He was just supposed to be like even less. And then two was Darkseid, right? The end of one is

He has kind of talked about there being three like movies, but yes So I think there were definitely two scripts ready to go though, right? They were they had this back-to-back plan They also had you know, the Riddler was in the bat bat Ben Affleck movie and he was gonna like solve the anti-life equation You know, there was a lot of like track late that they then dynamited but The only thing they reshot for this movie With people and it was Jim. It was Jim to be clear was Jim Carrey's Riddler Yeah Classic Jim Carrey characters coming back in the Warner Brothers canon.

Right, he had the popcorn machine mind reading thing. The epilogue is the major reshoot, right? That's like the only substantive. It's the only reshoot. They shot three days to do that epilogue. Now, they may have added other stuff with CG or whatever. I think that the flashback scene is... Oh, I think the flashback scene with Darkseid is a reshoot, but because it's not human act,

I think it's CGI. They did a lot of CGI motion capture-y stuff with Darkseid and Steppenwolf. They fully redesigned Steppenwolf. I mean, just on an effects level. Yeah, they redesigned stuff. They made the, you know, all the, and I will say, you know, all the...

And I will say, I liked all of the Dark Side. Introducing Dark Side and letting there be a bigger bad than just Steppenwolf and the Parademons was beneficial. It made, it gave context to Steppenwolf and why he's doing what he's doing. Also, like, in the Weedon cut, I don't understand what mother boxes are at all. And in this one, in the Snyder cut, the only reason I mostly do is because Wonder Woman

does a three and a half minute exposition dump to Bruce Wayne. She's like, well, all I can tell is, and then she talks for three and a half minutes based exclusively, I believe, on cave painting. Yeah. I think her knowledge, her minutes' worth of knowledge is from looking at, like, pictographs. I was like, what is this?

Themoscera, they understand. They go deep. I mean, they understand. She's an antiquities expert. Yeah. By the way, I do want to talk about that, like Like there is something, there are, in a good way, there are very funny things in this movie still. Like when she is in that museum, wearing what looks to me like an outfit

that you might wear on a premiere. She's wearing like a very form fitting, like white, it just a gorgeous, like you would see it in- Pristine clean cuts Yeah, I think you take to work where you restore art Brush and she's not in any no project like there's no smock over it. There's no there's nothing it's just like It didn't make me look that is an odd choice. That's an odd choice. He makes odd choices I honestly the thing that most surprised me

in terms of when you're watching this, I honestly figured that the Whedon had added in the Wonder Woman museum rescue sequence because that felt so tacked on. And it plays better in this kind of. I'm sorry, my biggest surprise, I was 100% certain that Whedon had tacked on the Cyborg and flash go grave digging and bond sequence. Yes

Yes I could not believe that that was in the original cut and only that's like 12 minutes and all of them are there Few few things were surprising but that was I thought that too is surprising well, only because Weeden, you know, with Buffy, has spent so much time in graveyards. Yeah, he loves the graveyard. It's like one of his signature settings. To him, it's like Frasier's recording booth in Frasier. It's Central Perk.

He just thought this is a good set to have some characters share funny quips. I mean, Gunter was in there. Gunter was in, he's in the, that's in the Snyder cut. That's what's so weird is Gunter is just there in the graveyard. He is CGI. But all fully CGI. But I mean, because we talked a lot about the movie,

like the general sense of the movie. Let's talk about this epilogue, because that is the new footage. Like that is this, I think what you're talking about, this idea of like, this is throwing towards the overall vision. I think that there's a couple moves here that he is basically going like,

this is what we were gonna do, and now, suck it. Like, you know, like, I think that that, like, or maybe making a play to be like, let me take the Justice League in my own world, and now I will exist separately from this and let me go make my things, and I think you should make them exclusively for HBO Max, but that ending, I'm gonna go in the most suspect of Jared Leto,

being in this ending as the Joker. I'm gonna go in and I gotta say, I was even, like, I was like, am I, is it four hours and two minutes? Like, am I three hours and 50 minutes in and going, am I, is it four hours and two minutes? Like am I three hours and 50 minutes in and going am I worn down? But I kinda like the- Is this Stockholm Syndrome? Yeah, but I like this, I like the scene.

I like the scene between Batman and Jo- Okay, let's, yeah, talk to me about this. Well, here's, I just wanna say something. I wanna hear Griffin's take on this. We're at this point talking about, this is the second to last ending in the movie, right? Yes. So the movie is-

So we're talking, I believe it's, is it called Nightfall? It's the nightmare with a K. Nightmare. Nightmare. Nightmare. Yes, nightmare. It's the epil- Now, cause the movie ends, it fully ends.

You see every hero, you know, has rediscovered their sense of purpose. You see the flash running, you see Superman opening his shirt, you know, right? Like it's the ending. Everyone's happy. And then it, you see Superman opening his shirt, you know, right like it's everyone's happy and then it's like and 20 more minutes, you know, and where it's like, I do think the movie would be better as a movie if it actually ended at the ending at Superman, opening his shirt, the epilogue feels like you say more like Snyder kind of

being like, and look, here's a bunch of stuff I had planned. Right. Interested, you know? He's world. His big picture plan was, like, by all accounts, movie one was Steppenwolf, right? Teeing up, movie two, Dark Side, that's the escalation. Yes, and movie three is Evil Superman. Right, like his whole thing was, cause you see this in BVS,

it's the first of the two dream sequences that then amounts to Flash showing up and saying, I'm too early, right? He was so obsessed with this alternate timeline of, and he's made this clear now, but Warner Brothers shot it down. The thing was supposed to be that Batman slept with Lois Lane. Say Cucks. Batman Cucks Superman. That was his pitch.

Yes. Right. with Lois Lane. And then Lois Lane. Say Cucks. Batman Cucks Superman. Batman Cucks Superman. That was his pitch, yes. Right. And then Superman goes apocalyptic and it creates just a horrible hellscape for everybody. So that's what he was working towards. You see that in BBS. And then I think he just was like,

well, I'm never gonna get to make my other two movies unless I leave people salivating at the end of this one. It's a grand play. I mean, it does make sense. It's like, he knows the movie is finished. So he tacked on truly the next time, the next time on, the end of like, it really is. It's a teaser.

He ends the movie. The Lex Luthor sequence, and then the dream sequence of the future. And then the Martian Manhunter saying like, by the way, Bruce, great job. See you later. When was that? By the way, when was that?

Because I remember Joe Manganiello, there was like a post that maybe Ben Affleck put in the Whedon one and they established Deathstroke. It's different a little bit in this one. There's a lot of examples of this in the movie where, having watched the two cuts pretty close together, too close together, um, there are a lot of examples where it's like, oh, this wasn't reshot by Whedon, but they just chose different lines from the same scene. Like, Or the ADR different responses.

Yeah. Right. I don't know, but it is like, the dialogue in the Mangionello, Eisenberg ending in the Whedon cut is entirely different, but it clearly wasn't re-shot. That one, the whole buildup is, it's time we build a league of our own. And this one, it's Batman's Bruce Wayne,

go do the business. Yeah, and we should, and Madonna from A League of Their Own is in the scene. Yeah, and she's, by the way. She's good. And Lex Luthor is like, there's no crying in villainy. Yes, and he says that, right, it's true.

I will say that Red Letter Media did this thing that I loved where they were breaking down Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And in the trailer of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, the Indiana Jones, the Shia LaBeouf Indiana Jones movie, you know, he's like Shia LaBeouf, like in the trailer, yells up to Indy like, you're a teacher? And he looks down really badass and he's like, part time.

You know, like, and then in the movie, he says it like, part time. Like, yeah, it's a very, it's like the trailer has the better delivery of the line You're like, yeah and and the movie it's like and you watch the movie I go why did you pick that you had it you had you have it and that's what this movie feels like It's like well you had it right? Why would you write? Why would you go over here? That's the most surprising thing is when you watch it and you're like, oh, they had all those pieces.

It's not like that was a thing he reshot. They just chose the worst takes and the worst lines to keep in. What was I gonna say though? You have the Eisenberg, Manginella thing, which was shot at the time by Snyder. And then the other two prologues were the two things he shot new for this.

Now I did read an interview with him where he said that his original plan was he wanted to be Green Lantern at the end of the movie. And it was first he wanted Ryan Reynolds Hal Jordan. And then that was just like a non-starter. So then it was I want a different Green Lantern, I'll work with Warner Brothers, we can pick which character it is and who's playing them.

And they went along with it for a while and then said, JJ Abrams is gonna do this big Green Lantern HBO series, we wanna keep that clean, can you change it? So the Affleck side of that was shot with the assumption that they would film a Green Lantern later or do it with CGI. I understand... My understanding is he shot a Green Lantern. Um... With a gun?

Yeah, he shot a Green Lantern with a gun. But he was drinking heavily at that point. And he said, fine, if I can't do Green Lantern, nobody can do Green Lantern. But wait, my thought was, and why I really liked the final end reveal of The Martian Manhunter and how they seeded it in the beginning, is that that character has been established throughout all of the Zack Snyder films.

He's in Man of Steel, right. Right, which felt to me like, oh, well, that's way more interesting that Martian Manhunter has been here, affecting, you know, like, I just feel like that was maybe one of those happy accidents, because it makes the movie look way more complete. He shot the thing with Lois and Martha during the original shoot and had storyboarded that when she walks out, turns into Martian Manhunter.

And then that was cut even before he got pushed off the movie. Like that was, they never did the effect. So he was able to salvage that and the seeds had been planted, yeah. Here's my big question to you guys though. Look, I think, like everything we're saying here, this movie is four hours long. I think there is a three hour version of this movie that is theatrically viable, right?

Obviously, Warner Brothers is never gonna release a four hour movie, but you there's this movie is full of sequences That you would horse trade with a studio where they're like, can we take out the Icelandic folk song? That's like my favorite part my favorite part of the movie is like the Icelandic dirge My favorite part of the movie is like the Icelandic dirge. She smells the sweater. Can I keep four of the seven slow-mo sequences? But just like, here's the ad, that's what I was gonna say. Speed up any slow-mo just a little bit.

You saved 30 minutes right there. He speed ramps within slow-mo. He'll go, anyway, sorry, go ahead. Here's my question, Here's my question. Okay, okay, so every time Aquaman walks out of the ocean like when he when he rescues the guy off the boat, right? He rescues the guy off the boat He brings him in and he throws him on the table Aquaman is wearing a shirt Where did he get that shirt?

Because well then when he walks take off his then when he walks out he takes it off and jumps in the water. So he's got an opportunity between jumping on land to grab a shirt that he's only gonna wear while he's on land because then he's gotta get rid of it. He does that twice in the movie. He's got like drop boxes all across the planet. Shirt piles. He's got shirts? Yeah.

Because he also, he doesn't leave the shirt there and be like, hey, I'm going to pick this shirt up later. He tosses it into the ocean. Yeah. The girls, the women of the town take a shirt. They take it like. They sniff it. They sniff it. They sniff his sweater.

I mean, maybe they place it in places. But I guess my thought is, what would you rather have on a wet shirt or wet boots? Because just kick the boots off. Like at a certain point, like you're walking in. I mean, I know it's rocky there. I will ask this about, we're kind of picking some parts of it.

Do you believe that the cameo in the Aquaman world was intentional? I believe it was, and the cameo I'm talking about is the drummer from the fire battle, and I'm talking about the octopus. The octopus got a nice closeup in this, and last time we saw him, he was playing the drums, and this time we...

I did think that... Much like in The Little Mermaid, how Sebastian the Crab, the court composer, is a crucial member of like policy making. It seems like the drumming octopus in the Aquaman world is the stuff. David, I'm not going to let you get a plug in for the recent blank check mini series about Disney animated films, including Little Mermaid. The Hot Crustacean Band, yeah. Yep. And one other thing I want wanna bring up that is an odd,

we talked about like bad choices. Amber Heard in the Weeden one, no accent. I can't. This is bizarre. This is bizarre. Amber Heard in Aquaman, no accent. Yes. That's the thing that pushes it over the edge.

Like I was trying to do the math on this. I'm like, is it possible she shot it with a British accent when Weeden came on, he was like, she should be American. They ADR'd it because the footage is shared largely. Yes. Yes. They must have ADR'd it. And then when Juan makes his Aquaman film,

they're like, well, the one that got released, she had an American accent, so let's go with that. I will say this. I think her dropping the accent was the right call. I think she is more comfortable in the part with the American accent. The foe doesn't have an accent. There's no world building where we're saying... It's like Star Wars, the Imperials are... That's, for the most part, they're played primarily by British actors,

with some exceptions. But there's no... The Aquaman world is not, doesn't have that same kind of a thing. No, no, it ends up being a funny Star Wars thing, where it's like, why does Princess Leia have a British accent for that one scene and then never again? You know? Yeah.

Where it's like this weird remnant of like... It's so bizarre. Let's talk about this epilogue too, because I mean, I know we keep on dancing around. So this epilogue, he takes, I mean, this is again, what I think is the masterstroke of this movie, where he says, I think Zack Snyder says, hey, you know the character that is universally hated

the most in the DCU? I'm going to put him in this movie and make him palatable. that is universally hated the most in the DCU, I'm going to put him in this movie and make him palatable. Like, that to me felt like the biggest fuck you. It's not a fuck you to Joss Whedon, it's a fuck you to, like, I don't know every, like, it's almost like, I am the rightful heir. Like, it's like, he has come home to roost

by putting Jared Leto in this thing and directing him the way he does and giving that scene Between the two of them. Let's say though. This is Fundamentally for all intents and purposes a different character, right? Like not only has he so thoroughly changed the look of this character got rid of all the visual stuff Which is the easiest stuff to clown on an evil club owner or whatever. He's Covered in tattoo Damaged and the grill an evil club owner or whatever. He is an apocalypse Joker. Yeah, he's no longer covered in tattoos. Right, he doesn't have to be damaged in the grill and shit.

He doesn't look like he's a DJ-ed. Right, and Leto's has a different energy, he's doing a different voice. It feels like Snyder going, I'm gonna just reset and give you another chance to play the Joker, is there anything you wanna do differently? He saves Jared Leto in this whole mix.

He goes like, he's like, I'm going to bring you back in. And in my rebirth, I'm saving you. It's a very selfless act in a way. Yeah, it is dangerous. Can I ask you guys a question? In that scene, in that team up that we see in this dystopian future that, for all intents and purposes, would have been, I'm assuming, the next movie. And you can tell how on board Ben Affleck is

for the potential of what could have been, simply because he shows up for all of this reshoot. Yeah. He commits to doing all of these extra days to just shoot this stuff. Anyway, when that team, when they kind of run through that team and Deathstroke's on that team and Joker's in there and so it's a...

British Mara. It is, yeah, it's a Suicide Squad-esque, yes, exactly, group of heroes and villains. Was that Flash Ezra Miller? Yes. It was, okay. exactly group of heroes and villains. Was that Flash Ezra Miller? Yes. Yes. It was, okay. He just has, he has his like time travel armor.

That's the costume he wore in Batman V Superman, right? That's how he looks in that weird dream sequence where he comes back to the world. Okay, that's what I wanted to make. Cause I was like, are they telling, are they intimating that this is a different Flash? But okay, that makes sense. That's fine. Okay. Wait, this is the question I was like, are they telling, are they, are they intimating that this is a different flash? But okay, that makes sense, that's fine, okay. Wait, this is the question I was kind of wanting to ask.

Say this movie comes out in a three hour cut, it's this movie a little chopped down, that's all. I'm sorry about the Icelandic folk song Jason, but I'm just saying, like, Zach Snyder's Justice League. That's still your cut, David? Look, look, just give me a second here. Comes out in 2017.

I think this movie would have gotten fairly bad reviews and you know, nothing. I think it would have had a similar box office performance. Done okay, yeah, yeah. Exactly, like I think that people in 2017 would have been like, no, we don't like this tone. Like we already told you, you're doubling down on it. Like there would have been a little more pushback.

It's setting up a future apocalypse. Then the flash is going to have to travel through time to save it, which is something Marvel literally does like right around the same time. They're universe. I think people would have rejected it. I think the time, you know, the sort of Snyder weird kind of transformation into an underdog, same with Affleck, same with like a lot of the people in this movie, like people kind of have come around

on Henry Cavill a lot more. So Ray Fisher stuff obviously. Yeah, like. There's just a lot of rooting for this movie, yeah. Exactly, it's so crazy. But I went in also going like, I'm not a fan of... Like, I did not like Batman v Superman. I watched Justice League, I found it to be boring.

Like, and I was... And we picked it for this podcast before it came out. Because it was like, it will be an interesting conversation on whatever, like, on this level, or it was terrible. Right. Right. Right. But so I guess I'm saying is like, I did go in... Maybe leaning more towards critical, less towards, like I was like, how could this possibly be good? How could it be good?

But then how I saw it was good, I agree with you though. I don't think this hits in the theater, but it's like I didn't go in... In 2017. In 2018, yeah. Here's what I'll say, I'll say on top of that, is, you know, yes, 2017, one year into the Trump presidency, like, not even, like, are we gonna want

this dystopian worldview? And the answer is categorically no. We don't want, like, this, I think the only reason any of us are reacting positively to it at all is simply because it's an improvement on something that was legitimately unintelligibly very bad. Now- The framing helps this movie in so many ways. It absolutely does.

Not just when we're seeing it, how much emotionality has built up, multiple different storylines of people working on the movie, the, you know, warranted weed in backlash, like all these sorts of things. But also it's literally, I just think the way he presents this movie, the fact that it's on HBO Max after a year of lockdown,

we all haven't seen it, which is one of the only reasons I really think this movie got to be made in this form. Yes, 100%. They had a multi-million, yeah. Right, that they were like, we need to drive subscribers to HBO Max and also we can't produce that much.

We're willing to put $70 million into something that will function like a blockbuster. Whereas before, I think we would have been lucky if we had gotten a release that was more like the Richard Donner Superman 2 cut, where it's like, oh, we're giving you an indication of what it could have looked like, but none of this is really finished.

Yeah. What I feel like though is, we're giving you an indication of what it could have looked like, but none of this is really finished. Yeah. What I feel like though is, whether it was in 2017, right now we're, you're right, we're all predisposed to look more favorably on this. In 2017, I would have been so disappointed because for me, this doesn't look like my understanding of the Justice League. These are movies like, like, like it's no,

what's absolutely categorically true in all of these instances is every time they are showing Themyscira, it's fantastic because Zack Snyder's style works, cause it looks like 300. It works so well in that hand-to-hand armored kind of individualized combat. And once they get into all of the cities, all of the destruction, all of the death, all of the grief and mourning, once all of these characters are killing people, they are responsible for

near genocides, these are, these are, these are, the characters are so dark, dystopian, and suffused with his Ayn Randian kind of nihilistic worldview that like, I don't, I didn't want it then, and I'm certain I wouldn't have wanted even a coherent three-hour cut of this. I would have been like, yeah, the movie made sense, but I didn't want it then, and I'm certain I wouldn't have wanted even a coherent three-hour cut of this. I would have been like, yeah, the movie made sense, but I didn't enjoy it. But can I, maybe, let me offer this. I think we also, and again, the 2017 version,

I agree with everything we were saying, but I also believe that I don't know, and this is a weird thing to say, and maybe so jump on me if I'm saying it the wrong way. I think it can be a great filmmaker who also is better served in a world like HBO Max. Like you don't have to, and there's something about that where I'm like,

Damon Lindelof doing The Watchmen, he could only tell that story on HBO. I love The Watchmen, but that's not a movie, right? And this is not a movie. It is, but it's something different. It's not. The framing also helps with literally putting in the chapter titles, having it be so egregiously long, putting it in a weird aspect ratio. It does feel like all of this stuff is sort of laying out the track of like, you need

to view this differently. This is the very weird specific analogy I kept on thinking about watching this movie and being so surprised that I was sort of being won over by it. And I do want to say, I mean, to Jason's point, like a thing I just categorically hate in this movie is just how fucking gray it is. Like watching the weed and cut, I was like, this is the absolute worst execution of more what I would want a Justice League movie to be versus this movie, which is like the best execution of what I don't necessarily want out of a Justice League movie. Well put.

But I have to respect it more. And you look at like the original trailers for Justice League, the color timing is right in the middle. And then when Weedon came on, brightened everything, saturated the colors, and then when Snyder took back over, it went back down to grayscale. I hate that Steppenwolf is gray, that all the parademons are gray, that most of the team is gray,

that they fight in an underground, like, pipeline that's gray, and the final battle happens in a city that's gray. Like, it's just, this movie is so... Right, whereas the Weeden movie, it's a city that's red. Right. Like, they... Yeah, and Superman puts on a city that's gray. Like it's just, this movie is so- Right, whereas the Wiener movie, it's a city that's red. Right. Yeah, and Superman puts on a suit that is black. Right, super, black with a gray.

Why would you change that? Why would you change that fucking suit? Like why would you put it, like, it's such a great moment and, yeah, it's so, it speaks to the character. I love, look, I like all these characters more, but again, I think it all just goes to, he's telling a large scale HBO mini-series, he's telling a different thing.

Not for nothing, he's about, they're about to release a black and white version of the Snyder cut. Once again, I'm sort of just like, I guess that's better. Like, I just want him to go all the way with all this fucking shit. Do your thing. Like, do like, I think we, like, he,

they're trying to, like, Warner Brothers, it seems like Warner Brothers is putting people in a box, and what they have found is that fuck. A mother box. A mother box. Oh, I mean, you see. Is that it doesn't work. It's like, when you put Todd, like,

let Todd Phelps make his Joker. You didn't want to make that, it gets Academy Awards. And I'm not talking about the quality of that movie or whatever, but you want it, you know, you make your Aquaman, you let everyone, and I think Margot Robbie, as much as, is it Cathy Yan who made Birds of Prey? I think Margot Robbie is so held onto that character

as much as, I think they take control and they're like, this is the story that we wanna tell. And everything starts to feel like there's more ownership and that's when Marvel works. Like Marvel works with ownership. It doesn't work with this is what Marvel's doing. We need to copy this. It needs to be two hours.

It needs to be that. This is another framing thing that I think helps this movie a lot now versus watching it four years ago, right? Which is DC has, I think, very wisely decided their approach is, we're gonna do the anti-Marvel. We cannot do this unified thing. What we're gonna do is anything goes. We'll have five versions of the same character

between TV and animation and movies at the same time. It doesn't matter, right? Like, let's just own the variety of these characters. Which, it's a thing, like, if these... It's like comic's just own the variety of these characters. Which it's a thing like if these- It's like comic books. Right, you go on the shelves and it's like there are four different Batman titles. They're all written by different people

and different artists and one of them's for kids and one of them's like a vertigo title or whatever. Like do that, throw caution to the wind. I think I was bummed out with these Snyder movies when they came out because I was like, these are gonna be the versions of Superman and Batman for a generation. Aside from the fact that it felt kind of like gatekeep-y

to make these versions of these characters that are fundamentally not for kids, right? Like that are so in your face, like this is intense, this is not for fucking kids. And not only that, I wish it was rated R. I fucking resent you babies. That you have to be out. fucking kids and not only that I wish it was rated R. I fucking resent you babies. I think you're really right. That's the bummer with Batman v Superman is like Batman and Superman are murderers.

Right and they're like... Batman and Superman are straight up murderers. They're also like sad assholes. Yes and they're all of them confronting the issues of adults. Right. They are all confronting the issues of adults or gods. There are also movies that feel like fundamentally they would be boring to children. Like it's not just that this is above them. Or scary.

Right, but now you watch this like five years later and you're like, well this is Zack Snyder's Justice League. This is not taking up any real estate. It's not removing. The variety is making it any real estate. It's not, it's not removing. The variety is making it maybe, so maybe that's what it is. Like we are, we have now accepted that you can have the hilarious Harley Quinn animated show. You can have all these things that, yeah, so funny.

And that can live. Yeah, maybe that is also the case. It's like, oh, this is just gonna be like Zack Snyder. And I think what happened was, and maybe for better or for worse, like Zack Snyder's vision was influencing the Suicide Squad. Was in, like everyone had to buy into this world. And the minute they broke with that, they've had success. But you can also live in Zack Snyder's world,

but he's not the Feige because there isn't a Feige there doesn't need to be a Feige. Right, like A, there's more diversity in how these characters get represented in different mediums He's no longer claiming squatters rights over I get to be the only person doing Superman and Batman and everything And then the second thing is the movies have broken out of this so much that you're like This is no longer casting a shadow over everything if Shazam can exist and be that cartoonish, then I don't care if Snyder makes his movies this bleak. But the thing I keep thinking about is, I have a friend named Christopher Compton

who has been writing this fantasy universe since he was like 10 years old. It's what he would write in school when he was bored. And it's like all, like his whole life experiences, relationship to his parents and stuff. He's just been working on it for like decades, right? And once a year, he'll like have a party during the summer. Just follow me here for five seconds, where he like stands in front of a captive audience and he tries to explain the universe as much as he can. Right?

And people go like, so who's that person? And he goes like, okay. And he's like chain smoking, right? And he's sort of like gesturing like there's a map. And I got invited to one of these ones and I said to my friend, like, this thing's fucking amazing. He has to write a book and it's like, it's impossible. He can't do it.

This doesn't exist in any linear narrative form. This is this like wide ranging sort of like idea that he's had. So it's an oral history? It's an oral history of a universe that doesn't exist and fundamentally the only format it can exist in is this guy in a backyard chain smoking trying to conquer like 10% of it. Like every time he does this only 10% of it gets covered and it's decided by what people are asking him to focus on. Right? Oh I love this. And, only 10% of it gets covered. And it's decided by what people are asking him to focus on, right? Oh, I love this.

And there's a purity of it where you're just like, the only way this can exist is in this, there's no way you could wiggle this into a book or even a book series. Or it's like, it has to be like, it has to be this explosion over multiple books and thousands of pages. And, you know, it's even like,

Tolkien with the similarion or whatever. Yeah, and this movie is the same thing where it's like, it's still only one third of the movie he wanted to make at twice the length of what DC wanted for one movie. And the thing doesn't really function like a movie. It doesn't have traditional narrative propulsion. Well, I mean, did any of us watch it straight through?

I could not. No. No, I'm sorry. I did, but I zoned out for the last 45 minutes and then rewatched it. Every time there was a chapter break, I took that opportunity to stop, go do something, whatever, come back, start it again.

I fell asleep. Sometimes I started watching it late at night. I fell asleep. I fell asleep because there is, like I was watching it late at night. I fell asleep. But I fell asleep because there is, like, I was watching it late at night. But, like, it does, I think, require, like, a reset. And I think those breaks are in there for a reason, because it can get, like, I know this is, like, we're saying,

I'm saying two things out of the side of my mouth. It's like, it can get numbing at a certain point, too, because it is, like, it is a sort of, but I think the refreshing, when I watch it, more like what you said, Jason, where I took breaks in between chapters, it's like, oh, I can enjoy this 40 minutes, it's basically enjoying like three 40 minute movies and it feels incredibly digestible that way,

but almost insurmountable in like, okay, more SOMO, more this, more music, more that, yeah. Right, yeah. How did this get me? How did this get made? How did this get made? So the one thing I wanna bring up to you all is what I have found, a little bit on our How Did This Get Made Discord,

and I made a post about the Snyder Cut, and I found this to be true as well. This is a 50-50 movie. People love it or they hate it. And I wanna acknowledge that other percent, people who probably already tuned out by this point, but the hate for this movie, this Snyder Cut film is real.

Like, and I want to also remember, like how do we even like, I don't know if I totally get it. Do you feel like that hate, I mean, I'm just, I'm curious because I haven't looked at it or anything,. Do you feel like that hate, I mean, I'm just, I'm curious because I haven't looked at it or anything, but do you feel like that hate is basically hatred towards why we have the Snyder cut more about

how the toxic fandom kind of needled and cajoled and threatened and bullied its way into getting this movie released? Or is it, I watched this, I hated it? Like this is like, you know, people hate the introduction of the flash scene, you know. Oh, see, that was, I was blown. Okay, so that's a perfect example of,

I was blown away that they took that scene out. The introduction to the flash also, I want to, because David has it as his background, so I want to call it out. This movie fully rips off the idea of pocket dogs that I pioneered... that I pioneered on the TV show The League. The Flash takes a hot dog out of midair,

puts it in his pocket for later, i.e. a pocket dog. You're welcome, Zack Snyder. I guess you can steal from the best. But that scene is such a good, incredible set piece to introduce us to this new character. I was blown out that they took it out. You've got also Keirce Clemens as Iris West. Was amazing as Iris.

Yeah, very nice little performance. Who is now coming back, right? Cause I mean, there were like two new stories last week. She is coming back for the Flash movie, but Crudup is not. Weird. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Okay.

I don't know what happened there. Yeah, but what I was gonna say is like, here's a great explanation of why some people hate this movie, right? Snyder is just so specific in what he does. It's one of the reasons I rewatched Dawn of the Dead this last week, because that's very much my favorite movie of his.

But that's the one movie where it's like, it's a James Gunn script. It's got all this James Gunn in it, and he was very much a director for hire, trying to show off and do a snazzy job, but it's not a movie that's in the same way as I would argue pretty much every other film in his filmography, so reflective of his worldview

and all of his aesthetic interests, right? And I just feel like when you make choices at this specific, it's gonna piss some people off, which it generally has for me. I just go like, this guy's not my flavor, right? But you get to a scene like that, which is like really good in and of itself, is really kind of elegant character development introduction.

But like you can start pulling apart threads of just like, and this is a thought I kept on having, the guy fucking loves slow-mo, right? He just thinks everything looks cooler in slow-mo. He cannot resist but use it anytime. He also uses snow-mo. He uses snow-mo as well. Which is when he puts snow into the movie.

There's just inexplicably snow inside of the set pieces. Right, right. There's just inexplicably snow inside of the set pieces. Right. But you realize, like, okay, strategically, if you've decided that the way you're going to visualize the Flash's powers is that he goes into slow motion, right? That everything is slowed down around him, you have the lightning. Then maybe don't use slow mo the rest of the movie. Maybe that's the visual language you've decided on. That's the visual power set for this character.

Maybe you can't do it every time Connie Nielsen fucking takes her sword out. Well, then what you have then is essentially what, you know, and they cheat it, but any sequence that has slow-mo as a part of it, in which the Flash is also inside that sequence. I believe the Flash should appear as though he's either at a complete standstill or he should be invisible. Yes. Yeah. Like, like, he should be, he should appear

to be actually at a complete standstill because of the double combination of the visual language of the flash is slow motion and the language of the film is slow motion. So it should appear as though he's just standing stock still. But that's why this is, it is easy to hate this movie because you start pulling at any one thread like this and it all just kind of completely falls apart. Well, I guess you're right. Well, it's like that idea that the Atlanteans can only talk to each other if they create an

air bubble around themselves so that they can use their vocal cords. Wait, what? They, they, they, you know, so they, which they dumped for Aquaman wisely. Like there's stuff like that that they dumped for Aquaman. There's the thing, there's certain, like there's this moment I saw sort of going around on Twitter and it is hilarious. When Superman returns, Snyder cuts to the cop pulling his gun, like going like way the second room like is your plan one? Why are you pulling a gun to your plan

is to shoot Superman? Like, you know, like you said, like that are you literally are the security guard guarding Superman's memorial. So you would arguably know more about Superman than anyone like yeah. Right. So you would arguably know more about Superman than anyone. Like, yeah. So you also understand that he has these powers that are pretty amazing. He has people make choices every step. Every character makes choices. When Joe Morton, like, when he and Cyborg

are having their kind of back and forth and Joe Morton is like, don't you understand? I've given you all of this power. I've given you all of this access. I've given you all of this access, there's so much you can do, you've barely scratched the surface of what you can do. He says, you have access to the entire nuclear arsenal. I was like, wait, what?

Why, wait, Joe Morton, why did you do that? Why should not have? He's an angry teenager. This kid is very unstable right now based on what you've put in through. Locks on there. Oh, by the way, speaking about speaking about like losing a shirt and putting a shirt on cyborg is dropping that sweatshirt off and on like how many

Gotham sweatshirts does he have hoodies? Does he have? There is a sequence in this movie that if you're talking about this as being a 50 50 thing where cyborg sees a poor family in need at the ATM and uses his cyborg powers to give them money. And I've seen people say like, this was one of my favorite parts of the movie. I love that this was included. And I've seen people say like that was so dumb. What the hell is going on in that sequence?

And I kind of came down on both sides or like on one side, I kind of, I, you know, I just generally liked obviously that this movie actually gives cyborg an arc and lots to do. And like you say, he's kind of the heart of the movie and his whole relationship with everyone is very crucial. But at the same time, I'm also like, wait, he can redistribute wealth. Are we, yeah. Why even care about Steppenwolf? Just work on that. Don't even go to fucking Moscow or wherever. Just wait a second, Cyborg, how powerful are you? Yeah, it really does.

It makes us understand though that like, I guess what we're to understand is like, he's still just a teenager. And so he's like, you know. He's dipping his toe. Are you saying that it's easier, well, the movie says it is easier for Cyborg to redistribute wealth than to fix Batman's plane.

Correct. Because that one takes a lot longer. Or to fix a personal tape recorder. Yes. But then there's stuff like, there's an arc for Batman's gauntlet in this movie, a whole arc. Oh my God. Like a spanning hours of the movie. There's stuff like there's an arc for Batman's gauntlets in this movie, a whole arc like a spanning hours of the movie.

There's stuff like that that I kind of have to applaud the four hour maximalist ridiculousness of that, but I can also hop over the line and be like, that's dumb. You know, like I can see both arguments on this. Here's another thing. He puts two Nick Cave songs in the movie, both of which have lyrics that seemingly describe what is happening on screen. Like I remember reading a Scorsese interview where he was like, when I pick a song, it's about adding something that the scene isn't otherwise communicating.

And then this movie has a scene where Lois Lane is going to the memorial site for Superman and the lyrics of the song are, They said the gods would outlive us, but they were wrong. Well, I guess like, are you, do you think that, cause he's a, you know, it comes from a music video background that he is going, I want this Nick Cave song and then writes to the Nick Cave song or does he, or, or does he do it like, cause he's not writing. He's a needle drop guy. He's a needle drop guy. He's a needle drop guy.

And he's also, he's a corny motherfucker. I mean, this is one of the reasons why it's like, you know, you really gotta reckon with his work. It's either like very much your thing, very much not your thing, or you gotta do what the four of us did, which is really try to work with it. I am a 50-50 Zack Snyder guy.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And then when it does. I'm like, I'm out. I'm like, I'm hard pressed to find a Zack Snyder movie that works for me. I like, I like Army. I like the zombie movie. I like a lot of Man of Steel. I do too. You know, especially the first, the first half of it is really very good. And then I like this. Yeah. And I like 300. Like those are, those are, those are like my... I don't like those are I don't like me like I thought once I'm not going back to 300. I wonder if I went back and saw it now what I would feel I think it's the avatar effect, which was like the first time I saw avatar that whoa

This is good Again I'm gonna be the lone dissenting opinion that is like, I'm pretty sure, like I couldn't tell, like there isn't a movie whose has a starker difference between box office or cumulative money made and like invisible cultural footprint. David and I talk about it all the time.

Oh, this is a movie that doesn't exist. I bought his newborn baby a baby Navi onesie so he can dress up his daughter like a baby Navi complete with tail. But did you have to buy a real one or did you have to make one of your own? I bought it from the Disney store. The Disney store, by the way, I've been to Navi at Animal Kingdom. It's the best. There's more, oh, the puppets they have on the show. Wait, to Pandora? Oh, sorry, sorry.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Is it the world of Pandora? Yes, the world of Pandora. And it was, by the way, one of the best amusement park rides I've ever been on in my life compared to one of the best amusement park rides I've ever been on in my life compared to one of the worst. Speaking of also, like, the corniness of him, I will say that the character I probably have the biggest issue with is Flash.

Like, Flash to me feels to, like, a character that is... Like, I feel like it's a non-funny person being like, this is my funny character. And at certain points, it's a little bit too much. But at the same time, at the end of the movie, I kind of felt like I have a hard relationship with him. I think it's hard inside of this movie, which is, to be very clear, humorless, dour, sullen, grief-ridden.

Every character is dealing with essential traumas that have happened to them every single cut. When they cut, they cut to another character who has experienced loss or is in the midst of a personal catastrophe. Every single one of them, right? And so Ezra Miller really is the only, the Flash is the only, his dad's in jail, which is bad. That's like, that is a trauma for killing his mom. But he, at the very least, they try and structure him like he's a kid.

He, you know, in the Snyder Cut, there's a girl, there's like, and he has barely used his powers. He really is. Right, I mean mean they're simultaneously, they're putting so much on this character. Because like the Flash is the only like A-list DC hero who is funny, I would argue. Right. Right?

Whereas a lot of the Marvel characters are funny. And DC. I'm sorry, Hawkman is hilarious. Well, but that's like if you get him at a bar at three o'clock in the morning, he's funny. He doesn't say that shit publicly, you know? Behind closed doors, Hawkman is the funny guy. Right, but there are DC characters like Booster Gold

and like, classic men who are funny, but they're outskirtsy. Right, the gods are very solemn and self-serious. Flash has always been the one character that's kind of funny. Ezra is the only actor in this film with any sort of comedic background, right? Yeah. So it's like, I feel like they're simultaneously putting the weight on this one character to both be their Spider-Man and their Tony Stark, right?

Yeah, I think you're right. And it's just overstuffed. And like sometimes the character strains from them putting all of that, like you need to be the fun, emotionally relatable underdog. And I think that Weeden tried to do that for Mamoa. I think Weeden tried to like create this other version of Aquaman that was like less of a loner

and more of like... Party dude. Yeah, and that was not, that was not successful. And Weeden's Flash is like a coward. Like he's like too scared. He needs to be like coached through the set pieces from what I remember. Yeah, in the set piece he's like, I can't do this. And they're like, and Batman has to be like, save one person.

And he's like, what do you mean, just save one person? You know, and it's like, well no. Got that movie so fucking stupid. It's so dumb. But it's, no, no, no, but it's like no it's so dumb but it's no no no but it's really true it's so dumb because it and it really takes agency away from the Barry Allen character because you know we've seen him participate we've seen it's like introduction he might just be green is him saving one person and then in the weed and cut it's an hour into the movie, him saying, I don't know how to save a single person.

Yeah. And I think that there's something about, like, it's tricky. The Weed and Cut has, like, two sequences where they're describing what they're going to do when they get to Russia. And this movie, obviously, way longer, but I understood that they were doing

in a much cleaner sense in this film than I did in the Weedon version of it, where it was like also like, I don't know. I mean, I just, just to say like- What's like the Weedon version's building popsicle stick bridges in order to cut out 40 minutes in between two points. Like can you- Right.

Josh, can you write one scene that enables us to skip over all of this? Oh, and the Snyder cut takes that 40 minutes that Whedon cut out and makes it 90 minutes. Doubles it. Right, right. He doubles it, he doubles it, and he shows you how everybody gets to every location, like, literally.

Right, and if you hate Snyder, which, like, I'm with Jason, where I was, like, predominantly out hate Snyder, which like, I'm with Jason, where I was like predominantly out on Snyder, and now I feel like after this and rewatching everything, I begrudgingly come to like a 50-50 state with him, where it's like, I gotta just respect the thing he does, even if it's not my thing to a certain degree. But I do feel like if you don't like him,

it is probably, it feels incredibly oppressive to watch four hours of this. I wonder if these weren't characters that I do know. I wonder if these were just movies. That's another thing for me. If I would find more enjoyment out of them, if these were just stories of gods and or whatever. or whatever. Like, clearly, let me be clear. Yeah, let me be clear. Like, Zack Snyder is an incredibly compelling visual stylist.

You know, like he's not a bad filmmaker. I don't like his worldview or his point of view, and so the movies don't tend to resonate with me, but I still like them. It's like he's straight out of the Christopher Nolan school of impeccable filmmaking, but inside of it, like Tenet for me felt hollow, you know? But so gorgeous to watch.

I loved watching Tenet, but I was like, what story did I just watch? Sounds like you could use a temporal pincer movement. Ah. A temporal pincer movement? The temporal pincer movement rather that's speaking of another speedster Look here's the thing. I've been thinking about with with Snyder with his three DC movies because I like a lot of Man of Steel I love the Krypton stuff. I struggle with certain things in it. I Still don't really understand why he couldn't rescue Kevin Costner from a tornado. Like, there's certain things in that movie where I'm like, I get that you're building to a moment here,

but I just I can't I can't handle the logic of your story decisions in that. Right. Yeah. And Batman versus Superman, which the ultimate cut or whatever it's called does improve. I agree, Griffin. But still, that movie is about people making really stupid decisions constantly, like because they Batman has to fight Superman. So you're kind of watching both Batman and Superman be dumb. And you're like, will you guys just have a conversation for crying out loud? Like you can figure this out in two minutes. Instead, you have to do all this bullshit and then Martha like, you know, it's like that movie only works if you do it through the prism of I'm supposed to hate both of these characters, right? And then in Justice League no one is stupid that is my point right there is no longer anyone burdened by

Ridiculous plot contrivance. It's like look guys we got to come together. There's a steppenwolf You know like it's a much simpler I feel like he got the note after Batman v Superman. It evolved, like, in a way. And I don't know, obviously, he said it was shooting very quickly afterwards, but on set even, I feel like they made some choices that, when he shot it, that helped make things make sense. I will say it was confused when, um...

Like, I get Superman fighting Wonder Woman and Aquaman and even the Flash sequence is awesome. Like, that sequence between Superman and the Flash, so cool. But when he fires his, uh, his, uh, you know, his laser eyes on, uh, on Batman there, um... Like, what has he got there that's gonna protect his arms? Gauntlets! He's got power-

He's got power-absorbing gauntlets! He's got power absorbent gauntlets! Okay, hold on. Sorry. Jeremy Irons made them for him. So I guess I missed that detail and now when you said gauntlets, now I'm pulling it all together. You might have been sleeping. The one thing Whedon added that I think was logical

is that Whedon adds that it is an active decision to bring Lois into that scenario to calm Superman down. Whereas in the cider cut, she just kind of is hanging out and then he sees she's in the neighborhood, right? Which just, that feels like classic, you know, script, script polishing thing where we didn't like, well, why, why this should be an active rather than a past decision that field. That's the only change I noticed. I just wanted to shout it out that It's different between the two cuts. I'm like, I think

I wanted to read this quote that I thought was interesting So Josh Sweden just talked about why he added in the fan because we could argue that the family in Russia is one of the biggest things that he just Sweden adds in and So he just Sweden says biggest things that Joss Whedon adds in. And, uh, so he, Joss Whedon says, uh, for him, the most important thing is for, what is it like for the people on the ground? That's always going to be important to me. Like there's Hawkeye helping people off the bus. You have to have someone who works on ground level, who's

taking care of the smaller stuff. Um, and he's talking about this as far as like what he added into age of Ultron, which is very similar, which is like, he added into Age of Ultron, which is very similar, which is like they have a lot of helping people... And the Serkoveans, right. Yeah. And so, yeah, so, you know, he said like, basically, he brought that Serkovean attitude into Justice League, because he felt like he's like,

he's like, I shot three days just tracking civilians on the ground because I wanted to see, you know, like real devastation, but I also like, at a movie this big, I don't care about it. Like, I don't care about it. I don't know. It's a thing I agree with conceptually that does not work in execution at all.

And perhaps if you were designing that to be part of the movie from the ground up, it would work, but in its form, it's just like, this is so clearly shoehorned in. It works in the boys, when the boys is built around that idea on some level, right? Like, a normal person who's been affected, or even that one shot that Lindsay...

Lizzie Kaplan, the Marvel one shot. Yeah, the Lizzie Kaplan did, it was like, oh, well, this is interesting, but you almost need to almost, that's an island. It's not like at the climax, I feel like. That's the problem in my mind. Well, the thing in Batman versus Superman that I like is that opening sequence where you're seeing Man of Steel from the ground.

And it's the sort of like apocalyptic 9-11 thing. That's where Ben Affleck, Batman is getting so mad, and you're like, okay, okay, this is very powerful. But then most of that movie is Lex Luthor being like, I heard Superman doesn't like you. And Batman's like, what? I'll punch him! You know, like, you're like, why is Lex Luthor getting over on you like this?

It's literally like, it's like gossip, it's high school gossip. It's absurd. But I agree with you, the extended cut of Batman versus Superman, just like the Snyder cut, proves that if you give Snyder a long enough, you know, give him a long enough runtime,

the movie will just make more sense. And it will trick you into thinking it was more satisfying, I think. I think it's a... I think this is like... You put more time in, so you're like, Right. I think it's a magic trick. You give it more time, but it makes more sense. So when you look at it, you're like, well, I understand it at least.

When I watched the original cut of Batman versus Superman or the Whedon cut of Justice League, partially what's so difficult about those movies is there is an inherent tension based on what is missing, making the movies not really make sense. The movies are asking you to do too much work and as a result are unsatisfying. And these, because they're doing more work for you, feel more satisfying and you mistake that I'm, you know, you can mistake that for them being better

and they are just better constructed. But like I said before, they are better constructed like brutalist architecture. Like if I saw it in Russia, I would be like, wow, that's an impressively solid concrete slab of a building. Yeah, but it's like you- But know what? I would love more windows. I would like more windows to let more light in I don't want to live in that building You know and that's what it is buy in on this on this thing is huge, right?

And it essentially asks like you got to just check your reservations at the door You got to be pot committed because you ask like, like Paul, why do 50% of people hate this? It's because if you're not really giving it a chance and you come in with your, like, my general taste. And you don't have to. You don't have to. You do not have to. No one has to. But it's like, if you're coming in looking at it at a glance, you will find 15 things a minute that just boggled the mind. Like in the sequence we talked about, where Cyborg starts to see that he can manipulate the financial markets,

the like pretentious self-seriousness of Snyder, combined with shit like, he feels the need to visualize that by showing a CGI bull. Oh my god. Wrestling of bears. So you understand. He also does the same, doesn't he also do the same? Does he do the same for, like, political parties or something? There's a lot of weird imagery in that background. Although I did like the way that you got into his mindscape,

but then I would also say that there's a way that he treats these characters. And look, I am more of a Marvel person. I probably, in my DC world, when I was a kid, I read a little bit more Superman, then I really read a lot more Batman. And, uh, so I can't speak to the character of Wonder Woman. I will say this.

Watching that opening sequence of her in the bank, that I thought was an awesome sequence. Like, a very cool, better than anything in Wonder Woman 84. Like, that mall sequence and what, like, if that was... Whatever. I liked that sequence. I did find it confusing that she immediately, that she does murder them. She does murder all those people.

And then goes up to that kid and goes, well, you can be whatever you want. It is like, oh, my understanding of Wonder Woman is not that she is this kind of a murderer. But again, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Like, I think in Zack Snyder's universe, they all kill. Right.

Like, they all kill in this world. Like that's part of the language of, I mean, like, you know, and that is what, again, if you're playing by the rules inside of Zack Snyder's universe, then I agree with David what you were saying earlier, the opening of the extended cut of Batman v Superman, which is this, like the movie opens with like 10 minutes of what might as well be raw footage of September 11th. You know what I mean?

It is so... It's aftleck driving around Metropolis as it's being ruined. Driving around Metropolis in a Jeep, in a very product placement Jeep, while tens of thousands of people are dying inside of the buildings that are being destroyed by the Kryptonian fight between Michael Shannon and Superman, right?

Michael Shannon? Yeah, Michael Shannon played him Zod in those movies. No, he didn't play Zod, he played himself. Yeah, yeah, no, he didn't play, that was the secret. Everybody thought he was gonna be Zod and he was just Michael Shannon. Yeah, even more intimidating, honestly. Yes, exactly, terrifying.

Yeah, his superpower comes from the stage. That's the thing though, it's like, as much as he has this sort of like complicated, big picture vision of the thing that cannot be reduced to a tidy two hour package, Snyder for me is fundamentally a filmmaker who thinks about what is the coolest thing I could do at this moment. Whether it's a story decision, a visual decision,

a tonal thing, whatever it is, and he doesn't really care about those things butting up against each other in a way that sort of works against itself, you know? And I mean, in a weird way, he's saying, I think, as Marvel is exploring the multiverse, I think we're on the precipice of that opening up in a much larger way. And I think Flashpoint, the flash movie that they're making with

where Michael Keaton is coming back as Batman, it looks like DC is opening up the multiverse and the way that they're going to be, I think, tying their, all their worlds together is by saying, anything can happen. There's a multiple worlds and all this sort of stuff. I think that Zack Snyder kind of is re-inviting himself into the party and going, this is where I'm going to. My multiverse is this, I'm gonna exist in this world where I can live by my own rules and it can look cool and that's,

I don't know, I think it's a very interesting, I think you're right, I think it's like his ideas like- They could have a version, there could be a situation in the future where Zack Snyder makes the nightmare movie. And it's not, it's just, at a certain point, if Flashpoint kind of gives us the multiverse, then we have the opportunity to not have there be a status quo. Yes.

Like every, Snyder's thing can be in just Snyder's thing. It can be, everything can be siloed in its different universe and they can mix if they want, I guess. I don't know. I'm curious how they're gonna approach this. It could be very interesting. Well, now he's already talking about a sequel. This is the Monday after it's been released

that we're recording this and he's already saying, well now, yeah, I guess people want me to make a sequel. And so that might be something that we see. The thing I never would have predicted that this thing would exist. If you went to when the first, you know, Snyder cut talk started, I was very much like, there's no such thing as a Snyder cut. Sure. He may have had an assembly cut of a movie, but like, that's not the same thing. And I never would have predicted that Warner brothers would pony up 70 million bucks to let this thing drop on streaming. Essentially I would never imagine they would have to pony up an additional $300 million. God knows how much fucking money you would have to pay to get

Affleck back, Cavill back at, you know, like, you know, but never say never, I guess at this point has to be the, you know, even though like Ray Fisher is calling for like CEOs of Warner Brothers to step down and like Ta-Nehisi Coates is writing a black Superman movie for JJ Abrams, but like it still could occur. All these things can exist. And I think, I guess, I guess like the way I feel about it is regardless of how you feel about Zack Snyder in this film. I Think I'm gonna butcher this name. So please all of you are much smarter than me What's that movie? It's a Kona Kwot C or

Yes You can view this movie like you can view that movie, where it's like, just sit back. Wait, do you mean stoned? Do you mean stoned? You should view it stoned. But in a way, yes. Yes, in a way, just like if you take your functioning brain off and just want to look at some purely beautiful visuals,

see some things. Like, I think this movie does work on a base level, just like, I think it could be, I mean, look at some purely beautiful visuals, see some things. Like I think this movie does work on a base level, just like, I think it could be, I mean, I felt that at certain points, it's kind of swept up in it too. Well, and to follow Jason's analogy, it's almost like you gotta just kind of respect

brutalist architecture, even if it is not your thing. So maybe just like walk by it, take a look at it, go, huh, that is wild that someone wants to make a building that way, and that this much work was put into constructing a building that way. And then you think to yourself, glad I don't live there or work there on about my day. Yeah, and that's kind of how I feel.

Like this is not, these are not movies that I will ever return to. The way that I return to, there are Marvel movies, like I have rewatched Thor Ragnarok, I've rewatched the Spider-Man, the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies, I've rewatched. There are so many superhero properties, nevermind into the Spider-Verse

and some of the animated stuff. But those are movies I go back to over and over again because they vibrate at the frequency of superhero storytelling that I'm interested in watching in a way that these Snyder movies do not. Does that make them bad? No, it just makes them not for me. You know what I mean?

And that's fine. I, you know, they make more sense now No, it just makes them not for me. You know what I mean? And that's fine. I, you know, they make more sense now that they have seen these longer cuts. They, the storylines line up in a way that if he did make another one, that was this nightfall, you know, kind of dystopian future or a nightmare or whatever,

this dystopian future, I'm curious. I'm also curious for a movie in which the new gods come to Earth. There's like, I'm, I like Kirby. Like, I want Darkseid. Like, I'm curious. You know, like, there's something there. I just, I just am always like, man,

Zack Snyder's stuff just doesn't hit me right for it. If you don't like, If you don't like Italian, we're not saying don't put an Italian restaurant in my neighborhood. Whoa, whoa, whoa, are you about to say something like offensive against Italian? Who are you? Mike the Spoon Man Mitchell?

Two hours in. What is this, the Doughboys? Is this a Doughboys episode? Can't we Knight Slice in here? I guess what I'm saying is like, Are you Mr. Snice? Mr. Slice, rather? I'm combining all of his... I just think that there is a thing where, unfortunately... The Night Spoon and Mr. Slice.

Night Slice. Night Slice. Night Slice. Which is my new Chris Terrio scripted, Zack Snyder produced HBO Max, basically. Oh, my God. But I guess what I'm saying is this. It's like, my whole opinion on this is,

I think, unfortunately, Marvel has set a... I love Marvel. I love what they're doing. I'm saying is this, it's like the my whole opinion on this is I think unfortunately Marvel has set a, I love Marvel, I love what they're doing, I am on board, but I think they have set a an unrealistic expectation for what superhero movies are, what people expect from them. I think you can see that in the Sony films, not to say that Sony films are perfect, that they have done, but it allows very little, I think that people view them as anything different as being bad. Where I think what we need to do is go... We need to expand this thing. But Marvel has created the template,

and I think when you break the template, it's very hard to... I think what Marvel has done beautifully is made movies that feel like comics. Right. Right? Like, they, the Marvel movies feel the most like comic books. Like, like going to the store every week, keeping up with a naughty, like, expansive universe where characters cross over and meet each other and do blah, blah, blah.

That is what they have replicated for movies. Yes. But that the movies and characters are differentiated from each other in tone, in style, and in performance. Like they're not all doing the same thing. Just the way that if you pick up a Thor book, if you pick up Jason Aaron's Thor, you know, and you read the the you should Yeah, everybody should read Jason Aaron's Thor drawn by Esad Ribbett I never like you're gonna for Jason Aaron took over Thor Oh my god, you read that book and you're like, I'm reading something incredible the same then if you pick up Nick Spencer's Spider-Man totally totally different subject matter totally different and

Totally totally different subject matter totally different and nonetheless incredibly compelling but but Marvel gets that key different key difference Marvel has never let anyone make anything as Individualistic as one of the Snyder movies, that's the thing It's like we'll make these different from each other, but we're never gonna let someone go that It is and what I think it works really good for Marvel is Kevin Feige is the gatekeeper of all things Marvel. He's the showrunner. Yeah, and we've seen when it hasn't worked, which is Jeff Loeb and everything that has come out of the Netflix Marvel world.

And it's like, those were, I think, disappointing to Marvel fans. And I think it was disappointing to some of those characters. And it's like, yeah, well, let the person. Wait think it was disappointing to some of those characters. And it's like, yeah, well, let the person... Wait, have you talked to some of those characters? Uh, I'm sorry, I mean... Have you heard from those characters? Iron Fist?

I talked to Iron Fist. He was very upset. Was Danny Rand like, Paul, I would love to talk to you. Uh, the... Like, I should have stayed, it couldn't... I should have stayed and could live. But I mean, you know what it is, I just think it's like, you look forward to those characters and you waited for the Marvel, like, I think especially

with Daredevil, and I think people really like, but I love Jessica Jones, but it's like, it was a very hit or miss thing. And I think Marvel has said, I think more successfully than any franchise ever, we got this. Like, we won't give you at worse a B. You're like, you know, like a movie can come in, it's like, eh, it was fine.

Like, and then, or maybe a B minus. Like, you know, it's like, but I think they're getting less. Thor, Thor, The Dark World is like a straight D. It's so great. I mean, we're on the other side of that one, Jason. Look. This I will never understand. It's its own episode.

Well, you can have it some side. We can have the worst side. We'll come on blank check. Yeah, come on. I'm about to talk about that. But I would like to rewatch it. But I guess what I'm saying is, and that is cool,

but nothing that everything doesn't have to be that. Like James Bond isn't that. Like James Bond gives it over to different people to take over and drive. It's, I just think there's room for all of this. Yeah, I have totally given up any sort of preciousness about IP at this point, because that's what it is. It's fucking IP, they're gonna keep on milking this stuff

over and over again. It'll never end. And not only will they reboot it every five years, but they'll do four versions of the same thing at the same time. And to Jason's point, like, I love the fucking fourth world stuff. I would love to see a gonzo banana pants,

bright, colorful, goofy fourth world movie. Ava DuVernay is supposed to make this movie and is writing it with Tom King. My fear watching you know this uh the the Whedon Frankensteined version in 2017 was man is that fourth world movie going to have to fit into this version of Steppenwolf and even the parademons and this kind of greyscale shit? But now I'm just like, if he gets to do his fourth world stuff and someone else gets to make a fourth world movie that's silly, you know, I don't care. Like let everyone do their own thing.

And, and you know, look, and there will always be opinions, which is why we're gonna quickly get into some second opinions. You're a rotate, you're a rotate, you're a rotate, you're a rotate, you're a rotate, you're a rotate. The movie was a piece of shit, yet this person recommends it. Tell me what is the message,

maybe that art is subjective. I need a second opinion. Alright, so these are second opinions that are from the Joss Whedon cut. These are five star reviews of Joss Whedon, Justice League, which I wanted to bring up because there are some good ones. These are all cold from the Amazon.com. Nate Kiley pulled them. And here we go. Okay, this one's written by Fan Out West. Do not hesitate to buy this movie and enjoy it. Unlike the Zack Snyder films, the cast actually looks like they're having fun making it. In my opinion, the cast of Marvel movies look like they're worn out and tired. The mustache that was removed via CGI is very short and not noticeable

if you're not looking for it. Jason Momoa is off the hook as Aquaman, and Ben Affleck's Batman is great. Yes, I said it, Ben Affleck is a great Batman. Don't listen to dirty, rotten tomatoes. They haven't been right about a movie in years. And if you don't wanna have fun watching a movie, then throw the Arrival or Grand Budapest Hotel

in the big old Blu-ray player and bore yourselves silly. Wow. The big old Blu-ray player? Do I have like a jumbo one for the Grand Budapest Hotel? Dirty rotten tomatoes? There's so much stuff in there. That's the Dirty Rotten Scoundrel sequel we needed. We should work on that.

Arrival and Grand Budapest notably, well received films that also were commercially successful. Both entertaining in very different ways. Like they're not like, one film is serious, one film is a very goofy, like madcap caper. Well, this is a five-star review, and it ends with this line here. It says,

Warner Brothers, hire some Disney PR people and give us JL2 and bribe yourselves some critics. If the Mouse House can do it, so can you. Five stars. Then we go into this one. This is written by Mark. Great story. Extremely well executed by cast and crew.

I hate Lex Luthor. Is that wrong of me? I think not. Zack Snyder has always been great at putting it all together, but I also love Zack Snyder's sucker punch. Why doesn't someone kick Lex Luthor's butt? I don't mean a superhero. I mean a regular dude.

You know, catch him in the bathroom. Have him slip on a bar of soap a couple of times. Five stars. That's it. What? Just wants to be, just took that time to say he wanted to beat up, uh, uh, uh, beat up Lex Luthor.

And then I'll finally end on this one. This is by Thomas Lernehan. Should have been shelved by the WB and DC when Snyder could not finish the picture a baby up like Luther. And then I'll finally end on this one. This is by Thomas Lernerhan. Should have been shelved by the WB and DC when Snyder could not finish the picture rather than allowing another person to take the reins who had no business in the DC universe. While I do not like what Snyder was going to do

with some of the characters, overall this movie was pretty good, five stars. A real twist there at the end. So those are have five stars. ALL LAUGH Twist. A real twist there at the end. So those are some five stars. There has not been enough reviews here about this one. But any final thoughts, guys? I mean, we really talked a lot. I think a lot about, I mean, a lot about, I mean,

we didn't break it down in the things because I think you're right. This is a movie that can be literally torn apart on every level if you're not buying in on it. And if you are, I think it's a pleasant surprise, or at least that's what I feel. And who knows if it's perspective or the history, or I don't know.

I thought, you know, just a couple things. Like, I thought Amy Adams just, you know, has so little to do in this movie. Third build. Third build. Wow. I mean, Cavill's second build for Critell, I would say, Karen. So brutally.

I think that's probably how they order in which they got into the franchise. It's seniority. Yeah. Right, right, right. But I thought she's great. She's so watchable and she's so great. She's good.

People are giving performances that are very good in circumstances that are, I would assume, as an actor, very bad. And by the way, I wanna just call out one of my favorite moments in the movie. I just looked at my notes. Force Majeure, The Pregnancy Test. Oh, oh yeah.

A great prop designer, Force Majeure. Incredible. Really, really, yeah. And so she's pregnant. Yeah, she's pregnant, they're gonna have a baby. I hope that Force Majeure Pregnancy Tests become like Zack Snyder's red apple cigarettes that they remain a product in every movie from here on out.

That would be incredible. It is hard for me to imagine that we live in a world. A society, say it, we live in a society. We live in a society in which Diane Lane is Ma Kent and Marissa Tomei is aunt May Like this is like I don't even understand how we've gotten to a point where the older moms are The hottest women on earth and I'm here for it's also funny Like Diane Lane is almost going full opening of Edward Scissorhands like they put so much gray on her

She's like doing an old lady voice there, like Diane, you gotta be less hot. Anything you can. You have to be less, less vivacious. You can't make Diane Lee not hot, by the way. They fail. You can't, she is so compelling. I think they did a great job of like,

her and Kevin Costner were a very, like they were not like what you would, they were great. They were great. They were great. Smart cast guys. They just look like, yeah, like, they were not like what you would, they were great. They were great. They just look like, yeah, like these are, oh, like they weren't just like, well, you know, they had a life to them. I like Kevin Costner in that film as well,

even though his picture only makes an appearance. Yeah, I do too. Now on the flip side of that, J.K. Simmons is announced as Commissioner Gord. Everyone goes, oh, that's cool casting. He shows up in Weedon for one scene. You're like, Jesus, why did they shank J.K. Simmons? That's hard.

All this J.K. Simmons stuff must've been left on the cut room floor. You watch this movie, the exact same amount of footage. Right. Yeah. In fact, I think Ray Fisher said that's the only footage that he, that was Snyder shot that's in the other cut. Two scenes. Yeah.

I feel like he ended, by the way, Snyder, yes. You've got to figure that he was just gonna be in the Batman movie substantial. Yeah, sure. I think what they were doing was, what you all have been saying, which is he was trying to build 10 years very quickly. So it's like, let me just drop these things,

like I'm seeding the world, I'm seeding the world, and so yes, I'll cast a big name person person to come in for one scene, knowing that it will pay. Like, he's, I think, doing it the right way, so it's not a bunch of recasting. And it was like, you know, Kirstie Clemens clearly is going to, I mean, now she's not, but was going to be a part of the world.

No, she is again now. Oh, she is. Oh, she is. Oh, okay, okay, okay. She is again now. It was like, it's gone four different ways, but as of this moment, she's back in the movie as the female.

Okay. So that's, okay, so interesting. Interesting. God knows. It's all weird. It's all super weird. All of it is as weird. All of this is as weird as the fake upper lip

on the weed in Superman. Absolutely. I will say one thing, too. Uh, one time, when I was directing something, I was doing a scene around a table, and I was trying to figure out, oh, how can I shoot this in an interesting way where the camera's moving,

because there's a lot of exposition and dialogue? And I was like, I will have the camera spin around the table. I did like two takes of it, and I was like, this is nausea-inducing. Like, I can't, I will have the camera spin around the table. I did like two takes of it and I was like, this is nausea inducing. Like I can't, this is not going to be good. It will not cut. It's, it's going to look like shit. Just, uh, Zack Snyder really embraces that spin around the table to a point

where I'm, I was dying laughing at how much we were going, like it was like a merry-go-round, we were around that table a lot. Like it was like, that's it. He's committed to that directorial choice. And in a movie that is so slick, that did stick out to me as being a little bit bizarre. He makes weird choices. The dude's so weird.

There's a goofiness, yes. He's got weird taste. And at the end of the day, when we're talking about like, well, you have to buy into this movie, they're gonna love it, you're gonna hate it. It's like, I think all four of us are appreciating this from the exact same perspective, which is what a weird thing that this exists.

What a bizarre history to get to this point. Having it at this state in such an expanded object is such a curio. you kind of have to view it on a very different, through a very different prism than any other movie you've ever watched. And you're sort of holistically taking in all the baggage along with actually considering what's on screen. Well, not for nothing, the fact that all of us

rewatched stuff simply to give context to it, is significant. I never intended to rewatch any of those movies. No. Guys, this is like a... I was excited to watch Josh Weedon last night. I was like, all right, here we go. Let's get into it. This is like, we are all, like, these are the stories that we're all, like, pulling apart

and trying to find meaning in some combination of all of these characters and all of these scenes. You know, there is there is something about this that is very, it's very interesting and compelling to talk about. But again, I'm hard pressed to think if I would ever watch any of these movies ever again and I suspect the answer is no, unless called upon in something like this to do it. Like, these bring me no joy, but I'm deeply curious. You know, I'm like so compelled by the story surrounding

the making of this story, I guess. I agree, but I also could use, I could use a break, I will say, from the whole Snyder plot and the whole superhero movie discourse. I could use a half an hour. We did it. Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? Guys? OK. Guys, I have breaking news. I want to break into the pod. I have breaking news. Vin Diesel's son has been cast in Fast and Furious 9 to play little dogs.

It was down to me and him. They went in a different direction. Wow. It was down to the- Griff, how did you not get this part? I worked really hard. Ultimately- Is that why your head is shaved right now?

Yeah, ultimately I think he had a little bit of an in that I didn't. You know what, that is, this makes me so angry. I mean, and now I, you know, I don't know if you guys know this, I am part of the Fast and Furious family now. The animated world of Fast and Furious. You motherfucker. What? I wait on this on that show. Yes, I am, I am one of the characters.

You're in the show? I am in, I have a very small part and I believe two episodes of the Fast... Spy racers. Yeah. Spy racers. Exactly. Yeah, spy racers. And... Oh, wow. So I'll talk about it more when I, when I can. You know, I don't wanna, again, exactly. Yeah, spy racers. And so I'll talk about it more when I can. You know, I don't want to, again, look, we're in a moment of mourning for Griff here.

I don't want to rub anything in anymore. I should also mention one more piece of breaking news. Anne Sernoff, who is in charge of Warner Brothers, did an interview that just came out today. And they're sort of asking her a bunch of questions about like where does this go now, this and that, and she was throwing out dodgy answers, and then she finally says,

I appreciate that they love Zach's work, and we are very thankful for his many contributions to DC. We're just so happy that he could bring his cut of the Justice League to life, because that wasn't in the plan until about a year ago. With that comes the completion of his trilogy. We're very happy we've done this, but we're very excited about the plans we have

for all the multi-dimensional DC characters that are being developed right now. And Griff, as you were talking, I also want to read one more quote from that article. She also unequivocally says, there will be no David Ayer cut of Suicide Squad. He's trying to leap on the bandwagon.

He's trying to be like, look, they edited my movie to death. Where's my release the Ayer cut? And some people are like, oh, release the Ayer cut. And I think she's trying to be like, no, no, this is not a precedent setter. This is an anomaly. It's a slippery slope.

Yeah, like, we're not gonna be releasing cuts willy-nilly on HBO Max, okay? I would like them to start, I would like them to release my cut of Dirty Grandpa. I would like to see that. I would like to see that. Guys, it's been fantastic to have you on the show. Obviously, you know, we want people to listen to Blank Check, which is a great podcast. But individually, anything we want to plug? Blank Check, this week we're doing our year end awards episode,

and then we're starting a little mini series on the films of Elaine May. That's right. April is May. I'm incredibly excited about that. April is May. Paul and I are both listening to the Mike Nichols audio book right now. It was one of the best books I read.

We actually had Mark Harris on Unspooled to to the Mike Nichols audio book right now. One of the best books I read. We actually had Mark Harrison on Unspooled to talk about Mike Nichols and it was great. That book is fantastic. And now I want to dive into Elaine May as much as I have been diving into Mike Nichols. Rad movies. I'm very excited. That was very fun mini-series. Yeah. The George Lucas talk show with Jason and Paul and David have all been on multiple times.

A very odd hard to describe show I do with the great comedian Connor Ratliff where he plays George Lucas and I play Wado the Tordarian junk shop owner and we interview real people in character. And it has its own mythology. It's on Twitch. Yeah, Sunday nights? Sunday nights, 8 p.m. Eastern time, planetscum.live. Okay, planetscum.live. Jason, anything you got to talk about?

In a week, I will be in a new Amazon animated series, as we're talking about superhero stories. Robert Kirkman's Invincible is coming out. Oh, I'm so excited for that. It's great. It is a one-hour superhero, brutal, incredibly cool, incredibly fun, funny, faithful adaptation, Kirkman himself scripting, an incredible cast. If you've read Invincible, it's, you know, J., JK Simmons, Steven Yeun, Sandra Oh, it's like Gillian Jacobs, Zussie Beats.

It's like an incredible list of people. And I play Rexplode, guys. It's very fun. That is incredibly exciting. And I will just quickly mention that I am in two things that you can check out. One is on Netflix. It's called The Last Blockbuster. It's a documentary Last Blockbuster. It's a documentary about a blockbuster video.

And I am blown away by the amount of people who have seen it. And if you are a fan of this show, I do talk about my Jamie Gertz experience. And she reached out to me, the girl that I thought, well, the girl who I play the fake Jamie Gertz in my autograph signing, which you can hear about in the documentary.

So she reached out to me. And this movie that I did called Happilyly, directed by Ben David Grabinski, is out on VOD right now. It's super fun. Joel McHale, Carrie Boucher, Kirby Howell-Baptiste, Shannon Woodward, Charlene Yee, John Daly, so many people. Steven Root. It's Twilight Zone meets couples retreat weekend.

And I think you will like it. So there's what I got a big. Thank you to Our amazing producer Cody Fisher our sound engineer Devin Bryant, of course our movie picker who we sidelined this week. I told Avril I was like we're just gonna go and jump into this She's like you haven't even seen it as like I know but I know, but we're going to do it. But Averill, a great movie picker, producer, the best. Also, Nick Kiley for his research and being able to break down the entire trajectory of this film. A big shout out to the ghost of Craig T. Nelson and Kyle Waldron for doing all of our art. A giant shout out to Molly Reynolds, who is my right hand and also a big part of how did this get made and getting the show made all the time.

And if you want to talk about this movie, you want to rebut anything that we say, you can do it. You can give me a call at 6 1 9 P a U L A S K that's 6 1 9 Paul ask. We'll talk about it there and you can join our discord at discord.gg slash HD TGM. It's all there for you to talk about in our mini episode next week. We will see you later. Bye for now.