I am Charles Schwartz Show - Authentic Branding: This Changes Everything

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

In this episode, Charles delves into the intricate world of brand alchemy with Howard Lim, the visionary architect who's spent 37 years transforming businesses into unforgettable brands. Howard pulls back the curtain on his playbook for turning forgettable companies into industry icons, offering a masterclass in the art and science of branding. From his early days finger painting to orchestrating multi-billion dollar brand campaigns, Howard's journey is a testament to the power of strategic creativity and relentless innovation. He dissects his evolution from a design prodigy to a branding mastermind, revealing the DNA of his "brand personality" philosophy that's kept him at the forefront of an ever-evolving industry. Charles and Howard engage in a no-holds-barred dialogue, exploring the five dimensions of brand personality and the crucial distinction between logos and brand marks. They unpack the counterintuitive approach of "authentic branding," the magic of creating a cohesive brand story, and why understanding the psychology of your target audience trumps following trends in today's competitive market. Howard's insights crackle with practical wisdom as he breaks down his unique branding strategies, from the game-changing "mood board" approach to the revolutionary concept of brand equity. He challenges conventional branding wisdom, advocating for a radical shift from surface-level aesthetics to deep, strategic brand building that resonates with customers on an emotional level. KEY TAKEAWAYS: • Uncover the secret sauce of Howard's brand personality development and how it can transform your business identity • Learn why "authentic branding" is crucial for sustained success in the business world • Discover how the "mood board strategy" can inform your brand's visual and verbal identity without external consultation • Understand the power of strategic color psychology in creating a memorable brand • Explore strategies for optimizing your brand across different mediums, from business cards to billboards Head over to podcast.iamcharlesschwartz.com to download your exclusive companion guide, designed to guide you step-by-step in implementing the strategies revealed in this episode. KEY POINTS: 2:14 Lion King Positioning: Howard shares his experience positioning the Lion King Broadway show for Disney, resulting in billions in revenue. 5:38 Branding vs Marketing: The discussion delves into the crucial differences between branding and marketing strategies. 7:13 Brand Equity Explained: An exploration of brand equity and its significant impact on business value. 9:01 Importance of Strategy: Emphasis is placed on the critical role of strategy in successful branding. 12:37 Building Brand Identity: Howard outlines key steps in constructing a strong and memorable brand identity. 15:00 Designing Brand Personality: The conversation shifts to methods for crafting an engaging and authentic brand personality. 17:30 Understanding Ideal Customer: Insights are shared on identifying and understanding your ideal customer for targeted branding. 19:02 Building Brand Rapport: Techniques for establishing a strong connection between your brand and customers are discussed. 21:02 Tips for Teamwork: Howard offers advice on fostering effective teamwork in branding projects. 23:25 Legacy Discussion: The topic turns to creating a lasting brand legacy and long-term impact. 28:13 Value Proposition Explained: A breakdown of what constitutes a compelling value proposition is provided. 30:01 Logo vs Brand Mark: The crucial distinctions between logos and brand marks are clarified. 34:07 Starbucks Brand Evolution: An analysis of Starbucks' brand evolution over time is presented as a case study.

Welcome to the I Am Charles Schwartz Show. In this episode, we're diving deep into the world of branding mastery with Howard Lim, the visionary behind some of the most iconic brand transformations of our time. With over 37 years of experience and a client list that reads like a who's who of global powerhouses, Howard has cracked the code on turning businesses into unforgettable brands. From positioning the Lion King on Broadway to revolutionizing campus access cards, Howard's journey is a masterclass in branding brilliance. He's navigated the ever-changing landscape of consumer perception and emerged as a beacon of innovation, all while maintaining a laser focus on authentic brand experiences. In this conversation, Howard unveils his blueprint

for brand domination. He reveals why most so-called branding experts are missing the mark and how understanding the true essence of branding can skyrocket your business to new heights. You'll discover why your logo is just the tip of the iceberg and how crafting a compelling brand personality can turn customers into lifelong advocates. So if you're ready to elevate your business

from forgettable to phenomenal, grab your notepad and prepare to ignite your brand's true potential. Howard's insights are practical, no-nonsense, and packed with actionable wisdom that could revolutionize how you think about your business identity. The show starts now. Welcome to the I Am Charles Schwartz Show, where we don't just discuss success, we show you how to create it.

On every episode, we uncover the strategies and tactics that turn everyday entrepreneurs into unstoppable powerhouses in their businesses and their lives. Whether your goal is to transform your life or hit that elusive seven, eight, or nine figure mark, we've got the blueprint to get you there. The show starts now. All right, welcome back to the show. Today we're with Howard and we're talking about branding and so many other different things. Thank you so much for being on the show. Absolutely. Pleasure being here. So tell the audience a little bit more about you. I know you've got some amazing stuff. We

were talking about this off camera, about all the campaigns that you've done and all the branding you've done. Tell the audience a little bit more about you and how you're an expert. Sure. I've been doing what I've been doing, but it's evolved quite a bit over the last 37 years. And pretty much everybody's been affected by one of the things i've branded or positioned or built over the last years um like for example i helped position lion king you know the broadway show for disney to their investors and now it's i think it's made uh over nine billion dollars um the ussb access card which became the standard for all campuses now i think if i'm not mistaken it's about 20 billion dollars annually across all campuses around the globe

and then the rebranding la marathon which we had to set up participation that are using that format for all la marathons and that drives a lot of revenue as well i'm very much about when it comes to branding roi it's all about roi so how did you get into this how did you discover that you had this gift and that you know branding really what's your thing um really quite honestly it's gonna be sound kind of weird but when i was five years old the first time i ever finger painted um filling the paint and back then it was like like powder and mixing it with water. I just remember putting my fingers on the paper and I felt it was so magical that I was able to create wherever I chose to, whatever my imagination allowed me to do.

And when I was in grade school through junior high, through high school, the students noticed, excuse me, the teachers noticed that I was really into design art so I'd be always taken to decide and given special projects and I had a chance to go to I think two of the best schools in the world Cal Poly and San Luis Obispo and I majored in applied art design before design became even a major and study packaging, photography, design, illustration, and the list went on. And then after I finished my degree there, I went to art center school in Pasadena.

And that's like where the model Audi TT came from, Volkswagen, some of the greatest movies you've ever seen. So I really wanted to go to that school. And they had the first Macintosh lab in the world. And I figured out how to get things out of the computer and that's where it really hit me hard. It was like, well, let me just do this for other companies, show them what's possible to get really creative.

And fortunately, Fortune 500 companies understood what I was doing. So I started working representing like Apple, Xerox and DreamWorks and started to show them what was possible. And lo and behold, by working with big brands, such as Fortune 100 companies, I started to learn what it really took to build a brand because brand is not taught in school. And so it really hit me that it was like, wow, okay, what is the makeup of branding? The essence of branding, branding quite honestly if you really look at it it's one design which has to do with engaging and designing things that are aesthetically

pleasing to engage to consumer and hit their emotions and then advertising which is all about positioning and so when i was growing up it's like okay you had my brother was in advertising and he says you have to choose between design and advertising. I said, why can't I do both? And that's kind of evolved to the branding that we know today. Now it's built with more layers, but that's the essence. What are, so you talked a lot about how there's a difference in branding and that you've learned it and you, it started with fingerprinting and it all ended up with DreamWorks and all that, which is just wild that you go from that. What are some of the major mistakes that people do when they do branding i mean other than having to rename their podcast in the middle of the season so a lot of times quite honestly so there's

two what i found are two ways to build a brand from a hip or by design right what's happening is that most people are doing it from the hip without understanding the different principles behind branding. And how could they know it? Because it has to do with a lot of schooling, like I mentioned, design and advertising and so forth and so on. It has to do with layering of understanding and knowledge. And the other thing, too, is that they're thinking that they confuse branding the same with marketing and they're totally two different animals walk me through that how do you how do you differentiate marketing versus branding because i think for most people

who have done this who have scaled we get it but some people are like wait what there's a difference between branding and marketing i just thought branding was underneath marketing and it's not how do you describe the difference between the two? So branding is about the long-term position of a company to build its equity, to build its position in a market and to be understood based on like say some of the core principles like, well, what's your philosophy? That's part of branding. What are the values of the company? is position who's his target market it's a little bit about marketing definitely but it's more about how do you want to get known in the mind of the consumer because a big part of branding is not what you're saying

is what everyone else is saying about you the question is how do you get everyone to say who you are the first thing establish who you are and what you do. The second part to this equation now is using marketing as a, like I say, like a megaphone to broadcast who you are through the different channels, whether online and offline. I think one of the things that people never talk about is brand equity. The idea, and I'm stealing this, this is completely your example, where you sit there and say, hey, I'm going to take a warehouse that's full of Nike shoes and I'm going to give you all the Nike shoes. They're yours, but you don't get to have the idea. And I'm stealing this. This is completely your example where you sit there and say, Hey, I'm going to take a warehouse that's full of Nike shoes and I'm going to give you all the Nike shoes are yours, but you don't get to have the name, how valuable their shoes. And I think that's the difference between brand equity and people just don't understand that in any way, shape or form.

They're so focused on how do I just eat? How do I pay the bills? How do I pay my employees versus how do I build something that can become a DreamWorks? How do I build something that can be this multimillion or billion dollar thing that you've been involved in? So one of the things you were also talking about is there's different people inside branding. There's different people that you hire and there's different environments. And most people just, I don't think understand that. I think like, oh, I'm just going to hire a guy for five minutes and my brand's done and I'm good to go. And I never have to reevaluate it again. It's completely wrong. Walk me through that as we go into those things.

Yeah. So what's happening too is like a lot of people, they use branding, don't do branding. It's so funny because popular, the popularity of branding really happened about 12 years ago. I've been doing it way back, like over 30 plus years.

The point being is this, is that it became more popular through like Tang magazines, four magazines, money magazine. And always like to talk about branding right but then the next day everyone says they're doing branding and so there's a lot of confusion out there so what happens is that a lot of people are not doing in fact quite honestly out of all the hundreds of people i've met over the years that say the branding. Branning, two people. It's a very complex world. It is. It's a really complex world.

So going back to your question, there's different differentiations between different experts at Branning. Basically, there's three major camps. So there's a camp as far as strategists. The strategists are looking at the long-term play, and I say that where do I look at? Is I design from your future and bring it into the now present. So it's really thinking way down the road.

It's like, here's my business model. It's like someone comes to us and goes, here's our business model. Okay. How can we make it so you can maximize its value? And quite honestly, what is going to be the cycle of that life of that product, service, or information? There's a lot of deep thinking that goes into it. It's like, well, you have to answer like, well, what's your overall philosophy? Starting off with not about even making money, but starting off with what is going to make you distinct and different from everybody else and what would yield adaptability.

And by the way, what markets do you want to actually be able to be delivered in and what would yield adaptability and by the way what markets do you want to actually be able to be delivered in and what industry so there's a there's a lot of like you different yeah it's like it's kind of like this you know you want to build a city you try to start off with the blueprint right you just don't start building piecemealing things together otherwise you'll have a pretty dysfunctional city i think you you talked about before, you know, people, it's some people do branding right off the hip versus planning out. And it sounds like the difference between the people who have spent the time to scale and build, which are totally different things. Um, when they're going to do this, the difference from becoming a multi-million dollar business versus a billion dollar business all comes down to branding.

And if they don't put the time in now, if they don't spend the X amount of days and ask specific questions, and I guess, you know, you talk about there's multiple versions of this, you talk about the strategist, but remind me before we get too far away, I want to tell the audience like the top five questions or 10 questions they should be asking. So at the end of that, after we go through the different ones, let's definitely go into that and say, Hey, these are the things that you should be asking because most people don't understand. And if you're not watching the video of this, Howard did a really good job where he talks about, and all these people that he's met this entire time, he only met two people

that were actually branders. And I don't think most people ever come across people who are actually branders in that case. Cause if you're doing this for 37 years and you won't come across two, the chances of people like me running across people like you are pretty darn rare. So if we've got the branding strategist, which we understand that, what is the next person? What is the next kind of step in this? So the next part after the strategy to figure out who you are, what makes you unique, what makes you different from everybody else, then the next part is execution, which I called implementation. So it's now what i call you have your dna it's now or you could say even your ingredients to let's say a beautiful cake or meal

it's now making that meal it's now making that cake with those ingredients and that's where it takes like for example to be a strategist it in my book it takes about 10 years to master becoming a brand strategist it there's so many, there's so, it's like a whole different language in itself where you start to understand it. Like what's the brand architecture of your business? Who's going to be the ambassador to your brand? There's like,

there's so many components to that, right? Then there's the execution, which is now let's build it. Okay, so you got the blueprint. Let's stick with the analogy of a city. You now have the blueprint. It's like, well, let's start figuring out the roadways after we figure out the roadways just figure out the residential areas just figure out the commercial areas let's figure out how everything needs to

work around the water electricity right so now it's building it okay so the building part of it there's in my book there's like five major components to it so branding memory is about not what you're saying it's what everyone else is saying about you the question becomes how are you going to influence them and getting back to that brand equity what's in the mouth help them become familiar with your brand with the face the brand so i call it the brand icon the brand icon is a name in a company it's the mark like the nike swoosh it's the font that you use like um apple is very clear what font it's the color that you use for example pepsi owns red and excuse me

coca-cola owns red pepsi owns blue so these are the things that really um in a font to use so the tagline as well these five elements are what start to build the face to brand. Now, is that branding the logo, for example? No, that's 5% to a brand identity. That's 5% to a brand identity. Now you're talking about, okay, that's the face to the company. Think of it like a brand, like a person. Now it's the personality.

When you look at big brands, think about this like commercials. You got the Mayhem guy for Allstate. You got Flow for Progressive. You got the Geico lizard for Geico. Those are all personality of the brands. Now, why do people, why do big brands do that? It's because they want to make it personalized and they want to be relatable to their target market. Right.

And that's part of the design need in a strategy to figure out what kind of personality should we create for a brand and what are the associations with that personality so when you write the copy for a website or let's say commercial now you're going to have some consistency between how you're actually projecting that brand the storytelling the tone voice so what happens when people do it on their own and don't understand it it's called a simple fact i call it the simple fact would i have all these different personalities out there right you're of their brand guess what no one knows who you are right you're actually diluting your brand before you even started yeah i never

sat down even with everything that i've done never said it's okay what's the personality of our org what is it what is the personality of our org? What is it? What is the personality at? And how are we coming across this? And just while you were talking, I was going through a couple of companies that I've worked with and I was like, oops. So, you know, the idea that I'm like, we never had this guy and we did great. We had, we exited, we had a great multipliers.

We've never sat down and looked at our sales copy. We never looked at our website. We've never looked at our posts. We've never looked at it and said, okay, what is our personality that we're trying to come across? It was more about, can we get looks and views and can we get virality? Can we get, you know, is it going to close it? What is it going to do for the ROI? What is our upcoming sale versus, um, and it's interesting because when it comes to, cause you gave the insurance ones, there are specific ones I will not buy from because of the personality they chose. I'm like,

that does not resonate with me. I'm not going to do that. And it was one of those things that's completely subconscious that I didn't understand in any way, shape, or form. So when someone's trying to design this personality, I'm going to completely go here because this is fun. How do you find that balance? How do you find a situation where you might have gone too far down the road with one? Like for, you know, simple example, there's a very specific personality for political parties right now. And it just, it is what it is.

It's a personality. We get it. I'm not going to bash one side or the other. I'm going to leave it alone. There's not a political show. But, you know, I talk about this all the time that people don't buy products and stories. They buy, I'm sorry, products or services that make story identities in ways that are pain. I'm going to have to add

to that they buy personalities. Because if I told you and I asked you, hey, here's a guy who's got a four by four truck, who do you vote for? Here's a person who drives a Fiat, who would they vote for? Here's a person with a Louis Vuitton bag, who's a person with a Whole Foods bag, you know who they're voting for. So I've always used these examples, but I've never understood it as a personality. So that's huge for me. When you're designing that personality, how do you design it in a way that you're not going to isolate? Right. And it's a huge chunk of the audience.

Right, right, right. So it's a lot of figuring out the persona of your ideal customer. You can't be all things to all people right because that becomes a waste of marketing as well um seeing that over and over and over and over and over again so really it's really what's called and this is goes back to when i was doing a lot of work in um adding c's back in the 80s and 90s which is still it's now coming out it's kind of like their trade secret of how good ads become very powerful ads it's called mood boards so you create the mood board to figure out your ideal customer and you're figuring out well what would it wear what would it shop

what you know who is this character is it female is it male is it actually neutral okay what's its age and so you're really building in quote unquote in this dialogue is how its emotions will be and what its lifestyle is okay is it urban is it suburban is it a farmer right no absolutely and and and it works it's like so how you don't how you make sure you're not alienating is you make sure then you're figuring out that you actually have a brand that actually could maybe float between let's make it up between 25 and 50 okay or let's say one we get down to teenager but also appeal to the elder okay so this is where you actually think very creatively what kind of different campaigns could be created like what's the core and in front of that core what could be offshoots

like like what i always get with clients is i say okay what's going to be our core message i mean it takes about two hours to get down to the core message right the point being is when that core message doesn't have different offshoots to appeal to those different market plays Based on what challenge are at like are they on YouTube are they reading a newspaper? Okay, so because we got four different now we got the four biggest buying power It's the fourth one starting to pick up the Z generation But the point being is that you got to really understand the psychology of your buyers to figure out what would be the right persona for the personality to be relatable. And the reason why we buy from emotions. A hundred percent. It sounds like you're building, not only are you trying to identify your

target market, but it's about who does the target market want to have lunch with? Who would the target market invite to their house? That's who you're building because it's basically completely off emotions. And it's something that I've never heard of before. Again, you've only met two of these in the world. I've never heard anyone describe it. I've always heard, you know, build rapport, get emotions, you know, avoid, you know, identify their pain, you know, find their watering hole. All of those things I've heard a million times. I've never heard anyone say it's about personality. What is your personality of your brand? Absolutely game changing.

So going back, okay. So we've got strategist, we've got the implementer, we've got, you know, we've got the blueprint of the city. Okay. Now who's going to build the day. What's our next step? What do we, how do we go from there after that? Okay. So when I always go, like when we were rebuilding WSS, for example, in 2010 in the recession but company that was not doing well at all uh

what we had to do is do a really launch and so we came up with a strategy i worked with literally seven or vps to actually come up with solutions to all them but the biggest thing was to come from the standpoint that we're all on the same page like everybody because they had their in-house granny marketing advertising i also worked with the cfo and co ceo but everybody was moving in their own different directions and i call that the silo effect so the first thing was getting everybody we're on the same scene sheet and that's why that what we call a master blueprint is so imperative to make sure everyone's clear where we're heading and how we're all been moved there because it's everybody's business when it

comes to building the brand. Okay. So I know this is going to come as a surprise, but you're telling me that when you go to scale a business that people don't talk to each other and inside the organization, they're actually not each other's friends. No. All right. So yeah, don't be all the time.

The biggest problem in the organization is not the fact you're trying to get customers. It's, so, yeah, surprise. I tell people all the time, the biggest problem in the organization is not the fact you're trying to get customers. It's just internal. Your culture is broken. And why are you doing this? They're just completely, the CFO hates the CIO and the marketing person. Exactly.

They hate each other. It's the biggest problem. You got to unify your culture. When you run into this, you've done this at pretty high levels. You know, you've done this for billion dollar companies. I'm completely taking us off course here, but what are some of the ways that you unify? What are some of the ways when you come in and you're like, hey, guys, I get it.

Marketing thinks branding is garbage. Branding hates IT. IT hates fulfillment. How have you found a way when you come in and you help out these huge organizations, which is what you do, how do you say, okay, guys, we all need to play nice to each other because we don't like to eat in two months. How do you do that? What are some of the tips and is what you do. How do you say, okay, guys, we all need to play nice to each other because we don't like to eat in two months. How do you do that? What are some of the tips and trades that you do?

So that's a great question. So I always start with the philosophy and I always work with the spearhead, the founder, the CEO, or it could be the president or a combination, right? But whoever is in charge, okay? I get to understand who they are and what's funny is that employees like with it with companies have been around for decades have been even like generations the the the you could say the management positions finally get to understand who he or she is and how they think so always start with the very top to get an understanding what's in their head and questions

that never been asked before. So then we could actually start to figure out, well, what are we looking at? First of all, as a business and where we're heading. So I always start with the philosophy and I have these very deep questions. I ask this quote unquote, the leader, you could say. And once those questions are answered, I form this statement. And that statement should not be more than two sentences long,

any longer than that, because it's not memorable for anybody. Okay. And it's not as lofty paragraphs. Right. So what are the questions that you ask the founder? What are the one that you walk in? What are the,

like the top two or three that you're like, Hey, I need to figure out what you're the spearhead. How do we find alignment here? What do you normally like the top two or three that you're like, Hey, I need to figure out what you're the spearhead. How do we find alignment here? What do you normally ask? Sure. So one of the questions could be like, if you're facing the, you're facing the more horrific challenges with your business, what values are so inherent?

Your company would cease to exist. Gotcha. I can tell you most C-levels, because this is who, that's my world. I interact with the C guys. I would say majority of them would have no clue how to answer that question immediately right off the hip. They would have to sit down and form that together because they just, they've never thought about it. You know, one of the things that I love talking to you about, Howard, is the fact that you're asking questions and you're bringing it from point of view, because you've been doing this for 37 years, that even as someone who I've done scale and I've done exits, never asked

these questions, never even thought of asking these questions. So it's absolutely right. Okay. So that's one. You got another one for me? Because I'm just stealing information. This is great. Yeah.

So now I want to be like, what legacy do you want to leave behind? Legacy is huge. Yeah. What legacy do you want to leave behind and why? Why is a big part on that one. And so, you know, you're right. And a lot of times the CEO, they've been asked this question. So, of course, I help coach them through it.

What happens is, is though is that they start to see a bigger picture than they ever thought was possible the reason why i do this by the way is it's kind of like reverse working and in it talking to over 100 000 business owners because i speak all over the world the point being is this as i looked at the common denomination looking at patterns and i realized that most companies only reach 25 percent of their potential so i want to create a model so they can reach their full potential 90 plus and so with these deeper questions it allowed us to tap into what's the opportunity of really creating something which a huge or bigger roi but also deeper penetration in the marketplace and actually

actually having it where we're going to do more good for all stakeholders. So there's a reason why I start figuring out what is the questions that are not being asked that could actually create a company where it's a hell of a lot more sustainable, a hell of a lot more scalable, and actually a place that really people want to work with or work for. So that's why I went with this quote unquote strategy of going with deeper questions is so the client would actually end up with something with that deeper potential of a

bigger business. Okay. If they chose that for themselves or to exit faster for that matter too. So it sounds like, you know, doing these things, you mentioned it earlier that some of the stuff you did in the eighties and nineties, which no one was alive back then. No, it was so far ago. But some of the stuff you did back then is still reaping fruit now, something 30, 40 years later, these companies are like, we're still implementing it. And this is the value of branding, not marketing about building this and sitting down and answering these deep questions. One of the things you told me about that you do is you work with, yes, you speak all over the world and you've spoken to all these people,

but you work with individuals and you really do a brand analysis for them. What does that sound like? Cause most people haven't ever done that. They'll just say, Hey, I need a brand. Okay. Give me a logo, which you already mentioned is like 2% to 5% of who you are. Right. Most people have never sat down with someone who is a brander. So if they're walking in and they're like, Hey, I'm going to work with Howard on how to do this. Cause I want to say a brander, but I don't know any other brander. So Howard, what are they going to be doing? What is that experience like for them?

So no matter, and you're right, I work all the way down to solopreneurs, like literally. It's not for me the size of companies. It's more about the difference that they're making and so my job for me is it is that is really is so honestly so i look at this place at this globe that we are on and i look at from a standpoint how can you actually make it better and so it's made up of all these different personalities and different individuals so what i look at is like when i work with someone i always look at um are they operating out of integrity do you want to make a difference are they coachable and do they have want to have fun on the way those are my thoughts i wish people would answer

the third one are they coachable good god you know i always talk about it's not about this i don't care about the size of you it's a question that's going to scale you i've said this for years and years and years the coachable yeah holy moses i tell customers as well it's like okay do they want your product can they afford your product will they buy your product and then the last one being the most important do you want to work with them and people always forget the last one so even when you're trying to coach people and scale are they coachable and that's a hard ball game. So when someone comes in, let's say they created a podcast name and it sucked and they have to change it on the fly. What are they going to be expecting to walk into? What are some of the questions? What does that environment look like? What should they prepare before they show up

to have this conversation with you? So what I always start off with, no matter who they are, what size, what industry, if they're B2B, B2C, or B2G, which is business to government, I always start off with an assessment. An assessment. And I do it online. That allows me to work here and work with anybody. And so what I do is I ask them to turn in their logo. And there's a bit, which we don't have, we could talk about the difference between a logo and a brand a bit which we don't have we could talk about difference between a logo and a brand mark but let's say the logo they turn in their website they're turning brochure they do have a product their product their packaging uh even storefronts because i did a lot of design storefronts or billboards or radio spots tv spots their social

media and what i do is i will look and critique it in a way to take it from good to great and it's it's usually an hour long and i work really fast and the whole thing's recorded and i'm marking things up and going okay where's your value proposition okay like their website for example the website um i have this process i take companies through is like the way i look at website is that the home page should really be like a trailer to a movie okay most websites i see is that they're throwing everything in and plus the kitchen sink so everything's shouting at you right and the reason for that is because a lot of times these these people are designing websites are not designers they're desktop publishers

yes desktop publisher is someone that has no experience in design that picks up a computer and then calls himself a graphic designer without any four years eight years of schooling and so what happens is that there's a whole pattern to reading a website anything for that matter dominant subdominant subordinate dominant subdominant subordinate the headline should be the first thing that people engage in, like a really strong headline that's engaging. And subordinate would be like the body copy to back that up, right? And subdominant would be a lot of times would be the subheadline. Just like a great newspaper, when reading the headline, it catches you and you read. It's this formula, and you're right.

These principles will never go away. It's about how we digest information. Right. And I think people don't understand that, that these ideas, you're talking about human behavior. Sure. There's different ways to get it. It could be a newspaper or it would have been smoke signals. And now it's social media. The core of it hasn't changed. The delivery method has changed, but the core of it of humans, humans are humans are humans. We talk about this. I've talked to special force operators and we have this conversation all the time. They're like, just shoot to wound. I'm like, why would you shoot to wound? Why wouldn't you eliminate your target? And they're like, because the target has friends and I'm going to turn one target into four. And I was like, that's universal across the board.

It doesn't matter if it's a 50 cow at a thousand yards or if it's a bow and arrow at 20 feet. So it's these core parts of the human idea and the human existence that if you haven't gone to school and if you don't have these level of experiences, you're going to run into it. I kind of feel like you're like a UX designer in a way, in the sense of, let me explain. There's so many times where someone who does UX, which is you as your experience, where they've designed this whole great thing and you get this very well-trained ux designer like yeah you're changing everything they're like why i'm like well people with

colorblind can't see that your stuff's in the wrong place this can't be there this is how people read it sounds like branding is like the the grandfather of even that as well it's like okay ux is cute let's talk about branding you talk about the difference between a logo and what was the other thing? Brand mark. Thank you. A logo and a brand mark. It's so foreign to me. I didn't even know what a brand mark was until right now.

What the hell is the difference between a logo and a brand mark? Okay. So, yeah. Well, because I started to create what's called an authentic brand. So, I started creating a glossary of distinctions. And that's a lot of times why people haven't heard of this because it's their own category created over the years. So the point being is that a logo,

a lot of times people create a logo based on personality. Like, okay, I'm going to show my friends, you know, what, you know, my brother-in-law did and see if they like it or dislike it.

Okay. And, you know know ask them why and this and that but it's all based on the personality and a lot of times logos for example i call them a liability where they're not simple they're not bold enough they're not unique enough they won't work in black and white so they work as a broderie all the way down to an app they won't work for an app to a billboard so they miss a lot of science to it. The second part that they miss is how it connects to the business. So a lot of times I just look at something and I go, well, what does this have to do with your business?

What does this have to do with what you just told me five minutes about your business or what it's about? How does this connect, quote unquote, your, quote unquote, identity to your consumer or customer? And, oh, go ahead. I have a really important question about this one. Because I always have, how the hell did they get here when it comes to one specific brand? And I'm curious if you've got a famous brand. I'm going, how the hell is that related? For me, the one that stands out is Starbucks coffee.

The logo of the mermaid holding up her legs that is cropped. It's a very famous, you know, it is what it is. How in the name of Zeus's butthole did they get from there to there? And I guess my question is, if you've got a logo that you've already been in bed with long enough, it's been part of your brand for 10, 15, 20 years. Pivoting your logo or your brand mark is not easy. How does someone who didn't know that you existed a couple of years ago go, oh crap, we have a mermaid with her legs spread wide open as our logo. Good God. It might work. It might check those boxes. It might, hey, look, we can embroider it. It looks good in black and white. It's clear, but it doesn't align with our brand. It doesn't align with the personality of our brand.

How does someone go through and say, okay, how do I fix this? How do I do this? How do I pivot this? So that's a great question. So it's really interesting because when I present and I'm, you know, teaching and presenting, I'll showcase studies uh where a company had a logo to a brand mark and one of them is starbucks by the way so starbucks if you look at it it's very like hand done it looks very junior level looks like you know someone's done it you know in their basement and then you could see the transformation over years okay and i knew they're gonna have problems i first saw starbucks and it took like three more reiterations, probably cost them millions of dollars to redo all the storefronts and everything associated with all the marketing, all the advertising, all the product itself, right? Right.

To redo it all. So what they had was really, so, God, this is a loaded question. So let me just finish this discussion. So they had the evolution from a logo to a brand mark and the the one that was prior to the one that they have now it's called an emblem mark where they chiseled it down graphically so it looked beautiful it looked simple to digest but they had the words integrated into the actual mark itself of what's called a pictorial mark of the mermaid the problem

with that is that as you start to migrate you start to grow your company into different countries guess what that needs to be that that can be translated from english to arabic or chinese or whatever right it will look like a whole different brand it looked like you just got knocked off right so what they did which is i'm a firm believer in that, and I actually started to figure that out building brand marks years ago. The point being is this. You want to separate the two. So the mermaid is now separate from the words. So now the mark itself, the pictorial mark, the picture is filling it up in a sense that you don't have to have words anymore.

Right. It could stand on its own. You have something now that's universal in all languages. It has nothing to do with the words. It has to do with an image. Right. So that's how that one was able to do it. To keep that story, but, you know, how he came up with the book, because, you know, Moby Dick, da, da, da.

We keep that part of the history behind it. But the point being is that now it actually is a brand mark. So now we don't have any limitations where we have a lid on it and we keep, now we're able to grow that into any part of the world for that matter, because now you have a strong brand mark. So one of the questions that people are going to ask about branding, especially now that we live in a world where you can't get domains anymore, where you can't get the name that you want. And that, that influences a lot of the name of the company where it's like, Oh,

I want to name my company, the bed past podcast show ever. And I'm sure someone owns that, but that, how do you survive when you're building your brand, where you fall in love with an idea and you've got your brand mark and all of this, but the domain's not available. Do domain names matter anymore? Absolutely. Before you even think about the name though, you really want to think about the position, the strategy session to figure out what is your position? Who's your target market? What

media you plan to be reaching those target market? And when it comes to naming, there's five basic categories of creating a name. And first of all, you want to create a name that really you don't want to have more than three syllables. And then ideally, you don't want to have it more, it's more than two words. Why? Because it goes back to how we think.

If you want someone to remember who you are, you've got to make it simple.'s true the dot bomb error they make up all these fanciful words well you never gonna be able to find a website because you can't spell the name thing that whole error was like total chaos i'm like what a freaking nightmare but anyways um yeah you do want to have it where so just so let's go back to like, there's five ways to create a name. There's generic, which is not trademarkable, which hotel in Las Vegas tried to create a hotel called name hotel. They battle, God knows how much money they spent trying to figure out if they could trademark that name. They could not because it's a common word.

Then you get into, you know, descriptive re-describing like motel six when it used to be six dollars right not anymore okay and then you get in suggestive and then you get into arbitrary like apple the fruit and apple the computer right then you get into fanciful totally made up like exxon now here's the beautiful thing as you start to go up the chart to the, you know, where it's arbitrary or fanciful, you're going to have something that separates you from the pack. It will take more to get people to know who your brand is. But the beautiful thing is you will leave the pack and get more known and be more unique to be more memorable. Like Lululemon, for example, right? Or as much as we don't like, I didn't like the word at the beginning, Google, right?

But the point being is that as you move up the chart. So, you know, there are plenty of words. When we come up with names, we come up like literally when we were clients, we come up with hundreds of names. And my job is to look at if we get a high percentage of dot coms because there's ways to articulate what kind of name should you be creating based on a strategy and from that dna starts to build out well what are all the possible names that we can create based on that strategy to actually best represent that brand position? Right.

There's so much that you've shared here. There's so many things that even with, I'm in the middle of a renaming and a rebranding now where I'm like, that's got all changed. There's so much that people just don't know. How do people find you? How do people sit down and get some of this knowledge and maybe save themselves millions of dollars in, you know, not trying to brand something that they can't brand and make it so that their company can scale up into that next level. How do people find you? How do they sit down with you? How can someone pick your brain and get access to you?

Um, I make it really simple. I give away my, my mobile number and my personal email. So my email is howardathowcreative.com. Okay. Howardathowcreative.com, H-O-W creative.com. And then my phone number is 310-804-4251. And then we'll set up like a 10 minute discussion. And if you want to, you know, go through quote unquote, it's up to you. If you want to go through a full assessment, then what I do on my website, I sell it for $2,500 for an hour, but through a code using H O W to hit the coupon, say apply, it brings it all the way down to $500. And I'll do a whole evaluation, a whole assessment on what

you've been creating and show you the gaps. Here's what you just told me where you want to be and who you are, but this is how you're representing yourself right now. And what is that gap? So if someone doesn't have the ability to call you up or jump on the website, are there other resources you have that people can get access to? Are there tools that you like to use? Yeah. So I took this time to write a book. It took me five years. I think it's been about 15 years and it's called Authentic Branding.

It's sold, you know, not so much than bookstores, but globally. But the fastest way people could find it is on Amazon under Authentic Branding by Howard A. Lim. And you could find my book. Now, the reason why I create this book by the way because at the time there was maybe five branding books when i wrote this book and um there's one book i really admire called strong bands by the way um that really inspired me but the point being is that none of these books really had any exercises yes and no one wanted to divulge any of their trade secrets which you know that's fine i get to respect that you know and i said well i'm here to help out as many companies as possible i don't actually say okay what do you do to create your values and how do you test your values and

give examples and so that book is not just a book to read it's's based on actually how you actually think about your own brand. And it's available on Amazon. It's on Amazon. Yeah. Need to go to Amazon after this. Okay. Perfect. I really appreciate it. I just wanted to make sure we had that. I really appreciate you coming on and changing so many different things. Just the idea of, you know, for me, the biggest takeaway was that it's a personality that you're building that I was like, Oh crap. I live in every company I've built in scale. I just went, Oh my God, I left so much money on the table. Oh, Moses. So yeah, there's, Oh, darn it. I really appreciate it. Thank you so very much for coming on. I really

appreciate you blowing my mind. Yeah, no, this has been really fun. This has been really fun. Thank you. And that wraps up our enlightening conversation with Howard Lim. We hope you found his insights on branding as valuable as we did. A sincere thank you to Howard for sharing his wealth of experience and practical wisdom with us today. His approach to authentic branding and long-term business success is truly inspiring. To our listeners, your commitment to improving your branding strategies and growing your businesses drives us to continue bringing you high quality content.

If you'd like to delve deeper into the strategies we discussed, we've prepared a companion guide for you. This resource summarizes the key points from our conversation, including Howard's techniques for developing brand personality, creating impactful visual identities,

and asking the right questions to uncover your brand's true potential. You can access the companion guide at podcast.iamcharlesshorts.com. Remember, as Howard emphasized, effective branding is about consistency and authenticity.