I am Charles Schwartz Show - How to Steal $500 Million From Barkbox's Playbook - Henrik Werdelin

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

In this energetic episode, Charles sits down with Henrik Werdelin—creative entrepreneur and co-founder of BARK, the brand behind BarkBox—to explore how play, empathy, and identity fuel the growth of beloved consumer brands. Henrik unpacks the origin of BARK, revealing how a deep emotional connection with customers (and their dogs) became the foundation of a company that redefined the pet industry. From building a brand with humor and heart to navigating product expansion and retail partnerships, he shares what it takes to scale without losing soul. Together, they dive into the mindset of modern brand-building—why it’s less about product features and more about emotional experience, storytelling, and creating rituals people love. This isn’t just a story about dog toys. It’s a blueprint for building joyful, mission-driven companies that customers don’t just buy from—but belong to. KEY TAKEAWAYS: -How Henrik Werdelin helped turn a love for dogs into BARK, a brand that connects emotionally with millions of pet owners -Why building a brand identity with humor, honesty, and humanity creates lasting customer loyalty -How BARK uses playfulness and purpose—not just product—to deepen customer relationships -The strategy behind expanding from subscription boxes to food, wellness, and retail without losing brand soul Head over to provenpodcast.com to download your exclusive companion guide, designed to guide you step-by-step in implementing the strategies revealed in this episode. KEY POINTS: 01:05 – From agency life to BarkBox: Henrik shares his early career journey—from working in creative agencies to launching BARK—and how a deep love for dogs (and branding) led to a subscription box that grew into a global DTC powerhouse. 04:18 – The emotional core of brand-building: Henrik explains why the most beloved consumer brands lead with emotion, not just function—while Charles connects this to how BARK turned dog toys into a lifestyle and cultural connection. 07:45 – Using play as strategy: Henrik reveals how BARK uses humor, storytelling, and personality in everything—from marketing to product design—while Charles highlights how this playful tone differentiates them in a serious, commoditized space. 11:10 – The risks and rewards of retail expansion: Henrik reflects on BARK’s leap from DTC to retail with partners like Target, and how they kept their brand voice intact—while Charles digs into the tension between mass scale and brand intimacy. 15:02 – Bark Eats and personalized wellness: Henrik discusses the company’s move into personalized food and health products for dogs, and how listening to customer behavior led to deeper product innovation. 19:30 – Building a brand with a soul: Henrik emphasizes that a brand should feel like a friend, not a product—and how BARK’s success came from being obsessively human in a category most treat as transactional. 24:20 – Advice for future founders: Henrik delivers closing thoughts on what today’s entrepreneurs get wrong: over-focusing on short-term tactics instead of building emotional equity—and why staying curious and connected always wins in the long run.

Welcome to the proven podcast, where it doesn't matter what you think, only what you can prove. Everyone says building a brand is about solving a problem. Today's guest, Henrik Verdelin, proves it's about understanding who you're building for, even if they've got four legs and a tail. He's proven that when you lead with empathy, joy, and creativity, you don't just build a business. You build a movement. The show starts now. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show.

Today I'm joined by Hendrik. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate for being here, too. For the five or six people who don't know who you are, can you kind of give a little bit of a debrief of who you are and what your accolades are? For everybody outside of my mother, I am an entrepreneur.

I've been the last 20-odd year of building companies. I'm probably best known for being the co-founder of Bark, the company B9, Barc Box and Bark Air. Gotcha. So you've had some really intense success, and you've also done some coaching, you've helped a lot of people out. When you were going to talk about things about why to start a business,

AI, relationships, and all that. But if we were going to tell one person right now, if, you know, going back 20 years ago, it would be the one thing you would tell yourself to do no matter what. You know what? The one advice that I always kind of like go back to, the guy from Virgin got asked this once. And he said, if you only had one advice for an entrepreneur,

what that would be? And he replied, goes to the gym. So I think I might actually go back to that. because I didn't start getting to shape until in my 40s, and it definitely would be easier if I started a little bit earlier. So I might say to echo that. Well, you know, shape, it depends. Round is a shape.

So technically it's still a shape. A buddy of mind, he's a very large guy, and he's like, I have a body of a God. Too bad it's Buddha. So we have this conversation. So, yes, I agree with you. Health is wealthy. People talk about it all the time.

That time is the most important thing you have, and it's not. There are people who had polio and they were paralyzed from the neck down stuck in a coffee can for 90 years, health as well. So I agree with that. But when we're talking about building huge wealth, you know, you've got a book coming up and, you know, to help people understand how you build entrepreneurship and how you build

successful businesses is very different than other people that have told about it. So what is your take on that, especially when people come and they want to be kind of mentored or you can coach by you on this? I think, you know, different people have different pedagogy of entrepreneurship and I definitely have my own flavor. I think what makes mine maybe different is that if you go, to take an NBA, they'll talk about marking sizing and product market fit. And if you go to some kind of avenues of the internet, they'll talk about like how to hustle

and stuff like that. The way that I think about it is that the two most important thing to ask yourself is who do you want to serve and what is the problem they have. And so if you have those two, then you basically have a lot of shots on goal. And these different ideas, you have to how to solve those problems that just kind of different permutation of ideas that you can and test yourself into. But I really like not starting with an idea, but starting with a person you'd like to work with for a long time. And then what's a really mean problem they have?

I use this framework I call it sucks that framework. And it sucks that is kind of like a nice way of thinking about a problem that is meaty. And then it's a good way of kind of like just having that in your brain. So if somebody would go, it's really sucks that. And then you're like, ah, there's my business opportunity. So can you give me an example of one that it sucks that and then that's good and then another one that's probably not so good? I mean like I'll give you one, I mean like you could take the ones in my world like it sucks that it's really difficult to make your dog happy. You know, it's very complicated to find the right choice for them or it's really difficult to travel with your dog, which is some of the things that I try to solve the business I've been involved in.

I think one of the things that people should be a little bit careful about these things I call the cock. party problems. And these are things where people say, hey, what do you think about this idea? And then most people honestly say, oh, that sounds pretty good. Like, people are pretty kind to you. I have this kind of little rule I call the swipe, which is the most honest thing, which is basically can you get anybody to swipe their credit card? Because if you come up with an idea and then people say, that's great. And you said, okay, well, I have, you know, square on my, bin mill on my phone, I'm square on my phone. I'd like to take your money. Then they'll start to ask the real kind of like serious question and right and you can kind of figure out if they actually

believe that you can solve this problem or not it it goes to the conversation of okay do they want it can they afford it will they buy it and the example i always uses bagadi because i mean when i'm normally in south florida it's like does everyone want a bagani sure people in my world can they afford it absolutely are they going to pay for it absolutely not steer out of your mind just why would i buy something that ridiculous that's millions of dollars just make no sense whatsoever Sorry, but I'm in Miami where people do that kind of stuff. Well, yeah, I'm a little bit farther north. I'm in West Palm, but yeah, in Miami, people do lots of stupid.

Lots of stupid. I've been to the hotel with my wife once in Miami, and we were out, had a night out as I guess we're doing Miami. And next morning, she kind of crawled to the mini bar and kind of like took the first bottle of water. And then it was drinking it. And I was like looking at the menu. Oh, God, the brunters. $50 or all that. And it's like a gold kind of infused thing.

And I was like, what are you doing? Honey, there's a sink. What are you doing? Yeah, there's a lot of stupid of Florida is that everybody buy ridiculous things. We, it's, it's sick. The thing is, I know you're not American, so you probably not pronouncing this properly. It's not Florida. It's Florida.

It's for D-U-H at the end. It's not D-A. It's just, duh. I've been there since I was five. I get to say these things about the state. So deal with it. So, all right, so people can go very much going in there for the record, though. Florida is, it's, when we only have two seasons, there's hot and oh my God.

So yeah, the oh my God seasons are, you just, you don't want to be there. But so when you come in, you know, you've got a different opinion about this and you're very pragmatic about it. You're like, listen, you didn't put you as part of the factor in this. You're like, hey, who do you want to serve? And what is a massive pain that are in and how can you resolve that? When people come to you and they mentor with you and they ask these questions, they don't understand how important relationship capital. is. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, I mean, like, we've always felt a relationship capital is important. And I think it

becomes back to the pedagogy of the entrepreneurs we have. If you look at the business that I've already done, always done, they're defined by who they serve and the problem, not necessarily by what they do. And so Barg is a good example. We want to make dogs and their people happy, and that's been kind of like the North Star. And so when we launched a new business after we had the box. A lot of people assumed that we do cat box because they're so used to thinking of people defining their business as what the function is. Right.

Put stuff in a box and send out to people. Now, we're in the business making dogs happy, so sending stuff to cats makes air enough sense. And so we, so I've always been on that kind of way of thinking. And so over the years when we defined this as a relation of capital, which basically have three components to it. One is like what we call depth, which is basically, How does the customer feel truly understood?

Like, do they feel seen? And that could be kind of like in its simple kind of way of like, if you email the company, how faster they respond. I think about that as like the customer effort school. The second part is a lot of called density. That is, do they feel that you kind of make them part of a community? Little lemon is a classic example of you wearing little lemon. People feel not just that they're wearing a nice garment,

but also they express something about themselves but I don't know any other kind of brands are the same thing at Hale Dixon. The third one, which I think about it as durability or the resilience layer, is do you have permission to solve other problem than the initial one that you were asked to solve? And so we use Barkbox again,

like the example could be first, we're selling toys and treats, and the second one is that we're providing an airline service. But if you give you kind of like a kind of an example you could think of if I said to you imagine a Nike hotel you probably have imagery kind of going your brain immediately but if I said now think of a Hilton shoe you probably would have less so and so some brand some brands have the relationship where they're allowed to

kind of offer something else than the initial part and so these three things depth density and durability is really like the the kind of the cornerstone of what I think about as as relationship cattle so when you're talking about relationships you're not talking about a relationship with vendors, you're talking about a relationship directly with your client or your customer, building that dynamic, and then building brand equity on top of that. Because, you know, again, to use your example of Nike, if I said, hey, you can have every piece of inventory I have for Nike, it's yours, but you can't have the name. You would be less excited about that. You'd like, oh, man, I want the, I want the name. Well, a little bit, you know,

I would be excited. Like, they have a lot of good stuff. But I would be less excited because I do you think that in the age of AI, where everybody can bite-cote themselves into most things. It actually goes a little bit back. If you look at the half-life cycle of companies, how long, for example, they stay in the Fortune 500. That has kind of done down over years. And 10, 15 years ago, it used to be 37 years. And I think as we get to 2030, it's half that. So I think that what will happen is when everybody can do most things very fast with AI, you need to figure out what is the thing

that would make people give either their cash or their data to you. And I think that basically this thing that I read a book called Sense Making, they think about as thick data. The relationship,

all the things that you can't measure is going to be the thing that will make you stand out. And so, yeah, sorry. So no, so I'm curious about that specifically because I'm not a dog person. I grew up with dogs

and then my dog passed away and I just broke my heart so I just can't do it more. I can't go through another one of those. But when you have someone and you're like, hey, we're going to make dogs happy. Why am I going to wait for, and this I'm curious about your model, I can just run over to the store. I can go get a tennis ball. With cats, you give them the little ring off the milk and they just play with the ring all the time. How did you differentiate? How do you get people saying, no, I want bark box? How did you build that relationship in a model that

says, clearly people love their dogs more than they love their kids? And we got blessed them for it. they call them fur babies, but how did you separate yourself? How did you have that density? How did you penetrate into there? Because I get customer service, that's relatively, especially with AI, and we'll talk more about AI in a second, rapid firing responses, making it seem like it's a real human. We've got automated agents that we're rolling out that are just unbelievable. It's gotten to the point where you can't really tell the difference on a high level from voice or outgoing calls or all that. But to get someone say, listen, I could go to my local pet store. I could go grab a tennis ball. I can do whatever to keep my dog happy. How did you breach that?

that barrier so that people are like, oh, I want, you know, in your case. Yeah, I think for us, I mean, like, it starts with really, I think, how much authenticity and how much authority do you have a specific space. And I think we had authenticity because we were solving the problem for ourselves. And the thing is that most dog toys, I guess I'm biased, that before we came around was pretty boring. And I think we then basically saw a few things. One is that a dog has very specific play styles, so there's a whole science to it.

They have seven different play styles. You could basically figure out if they might be a superchewer or there might be a defluffer or a squeaker-seeker. There's like different ways that you use a whole day to play. But there's also a thing that the energy of play often comes between the owner and the dog together. And so the owner don't feel the dog is the toy is funny or you don't find any enjoyment out of it. Then they don't have energy. And the dog also feeds off the energy of the dog. the owner. And so one of the things that we really kind of, I think, discovered was this idea

of, like, the play. I think that's also the secret of, you know, Lego and other things where both kind of like parent and the kid and you are playing with at the same twin. And so they get more play out together. I think you only really discover that if you truly have somebody who understand your customer and the best way to understand a customer close to be one yourself. And so that's where we started. Now, people buy our dog toys through us all through at the local pet stole, like, we don't mind. Like, you know, we, we are like, like Nike, we distribute directly.

You can buy it on our website, but you can also go down to your local talk or your local wall model. So truly, just to stay in Florida. So I'm selfishly can have a question. There's something called a Super Chure, and what would be the best toy for a Super Chure? What is that?

Well, Superture is some of these remarkable dogs that are very good of destroying at Toy Very Fast. And so there's some breeds that are very, good, but there's also just some like ferocious kind of like small docks that are very good. And so what you have to invent is a specific fabric that make it tougher them to tear the

stuff apart. But you don't want to make it too tough because they can damage your teeth, right? You know, we have tried to make stuff out of cable, and then it's probably had a good idea for the teeth. You don't want that. Superchewer is a product that has like this special often bacon-scented

infused rougher. That basically is very durable so the dog can play for a long time but they can also kind of like tear a pot and they really give it a go.

Gotcha. Yeah. So when I was growing up, our idea of what is super true would be would be a tennis ball. We had a Roddy and I just gave a Roddy

the tennis ball and he would just sit there and just chew on them until they popped which was very scary whenever he broke them. Also, Dow, you know, like, you know,

tennis bowl, they have fun. We have tennis boys too, but they're not ideal for their team. Right, they're not. You know, like for a lot of dogs

can tear a tennis ball up in a second and so. and like it kind of have limited fun like so we have toys like uh what's a popular toy quin swallow the cactus is a cocktail it's a it's a toy we have and um she's happy on the outside but when the dog tear it apart it has a toy inside oh okay i know that one yeah it's like you win sad it she's sad in the inside because she's complicated and so like the owner will have like a giggle out of like that kind of a little bit like pixar you know like you want your pixel with your kid and like the kid will just enjoy it because it's a great movie and the parent will understand all these

kind of like other meetings into windows and all that all right so that's how you build the density of it and when you're stacking your products you're building that relationship where have you seen where people have just completely failed at this we're like okay hey you know it makes sense with what you guys have done for you know bark box how have you made it where like they just completely misfired and you've had to coach them through that or mentor them through that I mean like I think most people are failing this because I think most people will see having a relationship with the customer as a bad thing they're like you know how could we put as many layers as possible, but between the people we serve and ourselves.

Like, you call, like, whatever airline or credit card company, and they go, like, your call is important to you, and you go, like, that's the way. Exactly. Please be aware, because this, like, the menu have recently changed, like, I've called you for 15 years, it's the same. And then, like, for you talking to somebody, like, press 3, press 8, press 2, and you're like, this is only designed to make me go away. Now, obviously, go down to your local pet store example, then you have somebody.

they kind of know you, but they don't necessarily creep you out because they don't go, hey, user 3.C. But they do say, hey, like, it's very hot today, right? So they understand the context of where you are. And then they're able to kind of like see what you want and help you with that. And so I think that again, back to the point of like when everybody, when products and service become so easy to make, like what will make you buy something from me? And I think that is that you truly feel seen by me. that I also show that I can understand what some of your problems are, and I can cater my solution to you to such a degree that it's basically almost like

those make just for you. And so that's why the book that we have coming out articulate that there will be these new type of businesses emerge, which are very much like the old mom and pop stores, but obviously living on the internet. And so the idea of a neighborhood doesn't necessarily need to mean that they're physically in your neighborhood, but it might be there in the kind of like your trust. in your neighborhood as in like, this is the substack Reddit

that you belong to. So how do you, again, as your neighborhoods are no longer physical or geographical and they're just digital, how do you, when you're running into substack or Reddit or emails,

how do you do that? Is that when you kind of do what you were talking about before? Like, hey, there's seven science to your dog. People like, wait, what? I know there's seven different chewing patterns or whatever it is to the dog.

And then here we may get fun for you as well. How do you get someone to stop? Because again, we're competing with ironically puppies and bikinis on on Instagram now and all the other ones. You're just trying to break through that. How do you break through that noise

and even get to build that relationship? Because there's people as we grow up who some of us have social skills, not me, but they have the ability to show up and the instantaneously are magnetic at a party. Other people takes more effort to cut through that noise.

There's a ton of noise out there. How do you differentiate yourself? How do you become signal versus noise? Well, I think there's some tactics we can go back to, but I think it stops with a good founder. I think one of the pedigrees are the founder of anything is that they have what I think about as kind of gravity.

They have something that's a little bit magnetic. And we all know them, right? And they're not always kind of internet entrepreneur. Sometimes they're the people who work in our church or the people who work in our communities or the people who run the sports club or whatever it is. And so I think of those people are out there. Now, when it comes to purely starting a business,

60% of Americans say they'd like to start something and only 9% does. And so you have a lot of people with gravity and really insight into specific communities that don't go and build a business. And part of the reason why they don't do it is it's incredible difficult, but also you used to need a lot of technical expertise

to make something on the Internet. And so what have happened over the last 15, 20 years is basically the knowledge that you need, you know, what you need to know about, the skills that are required to start something on the Internet have just going to weigh down. I mean, like when I started my first business,

the first $5,000 I had to spend was to buy a Windows NT server and then I need to find somebody to connect it to the internet. This is like 15, 20 years ago. And then obviously when we started Barkbox, we didn't have to think about how do you make a subscription technology, you know, financed thing because we just signed our credit card and some SaaS provider had provided that service for us.

And I think now, of course, with, you know, all these mid-journey and chat TPT and replete and all these tools that are now available for people who want to be entrepreneurial, you don't need really to code anymore. You don't even need to be a graphic designer. You can just basically express your idea to a bot and then it will render something for you. And what we hope will be the result of that

is that the 60% might not all go and start businesses because I'm sure some of them shouldn't, but it doesn't have to be 9% either. Right. I love that you think Windows NT was 15, 20 years ago. As a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer, I love that you think that it was only 15%. to 20 years ago because I'm certified in the damn stuff and it was it was not 15 to 20 years ago but I love that you have that in your mind. Is that closer? Oh no. Oh no. No. Because remember NT was operational at the end between 95 to 2000 and the Windows 2000 came out. We said a little bit of NT going around but you're talking 25 plus years ago man. So my first business I you know like on the server was in 98. So that there it is. There it is. I. I love.

love that you think that's 15 years ago. Don't feel bad. I still think we have to deal with a Y2K problem that's going to be coming up. So I'm old. It's the gray and the beard that's happening. So, okay, so I get that. And I get, you know, you can use technology. And I think everybody has access to technology. And it's getting a lot easier. I remember when, you know, your first websites would cost 10, 15K. And now they're free. You click, click, and you're done. Or you buy a template off, you know, theme forest. And it's $17. It just doesn't matter. I get that side. Where I'm still missing is how do we become that lighthouse in the How do we really, again, cut through the noise?

Because if everybody has the access and now technology isn't a hurdle for us anymore because it's not, there's no hurdle whatsoever. I can set up right now and click, I get an email, and I get an address, and I get the phone number and the website's operational. I have social media posts and I can use mid-journing and blah, blah, blah, all that works.

How do you still become that beacon? How do you become that light? I will say this might be a little bit controversial. I think one of the best places to go is to buy ads on one of the social media platforms. If Facebook can't find your customers, then you're very unlikely to find them yourself. And so then the question that becomes,

can they find them cheap enough for you to have a business? And so metrics that we normally look at are CAQ, so how much does it cost you to get a customer, and you get LTV, how much money can you generate out of the customer in the lifetime that you have them, right? And you need like a, you would like to have a three times kind of like cacto. Minimum, yes.

And I think you'd like the payback, obviously, to be immediately, you know, or at least, like, within a period, like, ideally within a 30-day window because then you can basically put on your credit card and get a payback. And so in many times, I feel that people have an idea and basically they can, by running pretty simple test, figure out if the cac they'll be able to buy in Facebook is within batting range of what they'll be able, with what they can sustain, if this actually works. Right. And most people don't. Now, Kag will always like slowly creep up. So you need some room. But, and you can definitely run a smaller business where you just do kind of different social, uh, kind of social hacks and stuff like that. You have organic traffic or SEO and stuff like that. But a real fast way of testing if your thing kind of has legs is basically to pay $50 to Facebook. That's a percent. See like basically an ad work and then see what it will cost you to convert. A thousand percent. And I think the other ways that, and people reject this a lot, but it just be a little controversial. First off, I agree with you and understand your cat is going to be vitally important. Also, I think I love that you snuck in.

You could just put that on a credit card. I can't tell you how many points I've got by doing this and just constantly running the stuff there. I'm like, whatever. I'm like, where do you want to go travel to now? So that's, it's one of the hacks that come with it. I'll get your fun start with that. So when Barg was just getting, we were about 100 people.

We flew 100 people to Florida to go to Disney World. Oh, nice. credit cot because basically we had everything all the points absolutely thank god for amics on that one um but there's also the so i agree with cack running your ads but i also i'm a huge fan of influencer marketing the idea of inherited trust because if i walk into a room and i say i'm amazing no one listens to me if i walk into a room and a complete stranger says he's amazing there's a massive amount of trust that i get and if you already have if you know that influencer a has your audience just go pay them to say listen this stuff's great go go

do it. It'll just speed up your process and then it'll go back to your swipe conversation. Will they be willing to spend money? I agree with that. I think, I think influencer, honestly, had a bit of a bad wrap to start with. I think people a little bit papoop them in the early days. And I think that was like a big mistake. We were lucky that our influencers had full legs. And so a lot of the influencer dogs that we got to work with at the time nobody really took them serious. But like, if you go to, it was a good one. Tuna Males my heart. And it's a quirky-looking dog out there. And she has millions of followers.

Courtney, her mom is an incredible human. And we worked with her a lot, you know, from when Tuna Meltz, my heart didn't have that many followers and all the way out. I think Bark had at one point, like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of influencer dogs, you know, on payroll. And so I'm very much agree with that. Yeah, just it's, it's the easier. We talk about this all the time.

There's four ways to get an audience. You build it. um you borrow it you buy it or you beg for it and only two of those work and i'll let the audience just listen to the rest of this episode and you'll figure out which are the two that we like i'm just you should have figured that up by now all right so you get that audience and they're excited and they're still you know they're going through the process right they're going through the five stages of awareness and they're going through this and we're hacking the system because we're using our credit card and we're using influencer marketing and we're doing that in the book you know

you continue to talk about how to build this what is the next step that you review specifically in the book because i know you got it coming out when is it really really least, by the way. 12th or August. Okay. So I think if you take really like, if we really kind of like atomized our process, it's not up by figuring out who can you be bothered talking to for 12,

you know, 10, 20 years, like, you know, who's somebody. And it's often somebody that is close to you. It could be yourself, but it could also be like, you know, a peer or somebody who've experienced something like you. The same thing is this problem. We've talked about that sucks that. Then we do something we call signal mining.

The signal mine is that kind of cack discovery phase, as we say. We basically put up landing pages and we buy ads and we say, we articulate the problem and then we make that ad, we give it to Facebook, and we basically see how much chess generates, like, people come into it. And often we have some kind of landing pages that create some kind of like promise or some kind of like value exchange. And we often like doing what we think of as a service system where we say, well, can we solve this manually first? And so if this is about sending you a box of toys, you know, in the early days when we only had 70 customers, you know, I didn't need like a big algorithm. I could just basically find products myself and then send it out to you. And so we try to kind of like walk ourselves more and more into these businesses under kind of an umbrella that we call it an easy start with a big finish, that a lot of people get very kind of big on what is the big vision of the idea and how are they going to solve all these big problems as they're skisks. The reality is that most business never get there.

And so I really, really like kind of getting over the very first long mile, which is can I get anybody to buy anything and can I basically kind of like totally kind of hand-held, kind of fix it for them. Because if I can kind of get that like flywheel to work, then often I can come up with kind of smart ways and making sure it becomes repeatable. So when you're going through and you're building this, are you A-B testing or do Do you sit there and you write down different text or is it just one funnel at a time? Or how do you figure out what that funnel is going to be?

I think in the early days, it's just very, very dumb and very manual. Like, A-B testing, I think, is clever. But at this point, I think A-B testing is probably more kind of good for optimizing things. This is when I want to increase the CAG and stuff like that. You know, I'll give you an example with Bark. When we come in with Bark box, I made up, I made a, I bought a template on, WordPress. I can't remember you mentioned like a template provider. I went on Upwork. I had wide-framed like something of what I wanted to look like. And I had somebody at Upwork basically

make the first version. And so I managed to kind of stumble myself into having it on my phone. And we walked down to the dog park and we asked people, what do you think about this? And they say, oh, that looks cool. And I go like, when you, I have to grab my phone, you want to buy it for $25. And they go like, oh, then they gave you all the questions, right? Right. And then we ended up having 70 accounts. And obviously, as I went around and pitched it to people, I would, like, change the pitch a little bit. And based on the thing that people were asking me,

I would kind of change how it would position a little bit. Sorry. So I would do more, so it's more kind of like just, I think of it as stone carving. Like, you have like a rock. And you're basically trying to figure out, is there, they're there? And so I'm kind of like, just kind of like mezzling away

and trying to see what this thing will look like. A.B. Test, for me, is more in the world of, like, I kind of know what it is now. And now I just need to make sure that I have the optimal way of positioning the proper optimal way of positioning the product and stuff like that. But maybe I'm just not smart enough. But like, maybe I think I'm later in my world. Yeah, I love that, you know, they asked Michelangelo, like, how did you build the David? He goes, I just took away all the parts that weren't David. And that to me is just what you're talking about. You just chiseled away at it. Like, there it is.

That was just underneath. You just had to figure out to get that. I was so going to steal that quote. That was such a really bad way of saying that I didn't. Yeah. It's not my quote. I didn't create that. What you can have.

I stole from someone else, whoever it is, whatever. Thank you. Okay, so you're going through and you start to get the momentum and you go from 70 clients to significantly more. How do you do with that scale? Obviously, with AI, there's only so much, what you can automate. We're going to talk more about AI and how you integrate it. But how do you do with scale? Because from my experience, there is this drought for every business they've ever had.

You start with either you've done it well enough that someone wants to buy it because you've figured it out and you start and like, oh God, there's this influx of traffic. Or you start with this, is it going to work? Is it going to work? And then it hockey sticks. And how you deal with that hockey stick and how you prepare for that hockey stick and how you maintain that relationship with your customers during that is important. With what you've done and what you've run into, What are the secrets that you've been able to handle with scaling? I think like you, that probably for me had gone more in step functions, right?

Like you do a little bit and then you get to the next kind of like step. And I will say that a lot of the things that I've worked on that worked, it worked pretty relatively fast. Or these, like you felt there was like a signal or like some sizzle there. And I think one of the things that actually a lot of founders should do is they should create like a kill switch for themselves or default debt kind of date where they go like, if this doesn't fly fly by the state, I should just start again.

Like sometimes you see these people and they spend like years and years and years and the duck just doesn't hunt. And like they'll never fly. Anyway, so back to like, how do I think about scaling? I think about scaling in different faces. And I am very kind of big into solving the problem when it's actually slapping me in the face, not before. I'll give an example again for Barkbox.

when people asked me, one of the questions that people asked, just when we started, it was like, how you're going to pack the boxes? Like, I'm going to pack them myself. Yeah, that whole scale. And you're like, I have stuff. I'll do with what I get there. Yeah.

It's scale real, like, you know, not only I'm not going to cross the bridge. I might not, I'll build the bridge. I might not even go over, like, the water at that point. And so, like, the second part then was like, we then have thousands of customers, and it became a lot to pack ourselves. And they were like, oh, how do we fix this?

We don't have that much money. So we invented this thing we called packing parties, where we basically would call our friends and say, hey, next Thursday, come to the office. We'd go to serve, like, basically cheap wine and cheap cheese. So cheese and wine. And then people will come and they're going, ha-ha, and now they're here, like,

we're also going to pack some boxes together. That'll be fun. And so we would have these packing parties where our poor friends would pack thousands of boxes while we were trying to give them. And then obviously, then we can bicker, and then we could afford a warehouse. And so, yeah, I solve problems

as they appear, and then I don't try to solve them too early. Yeah, the best example I gave of this, and since you grew up on NT, you'll know this, there was a video game called Mike Tyson's Punchout on N.S. And everybody was so focused on how to beat Mike Tyson. And none of us ever got to the point of beating Mike Tyson because we didn't beat the three guys or seven guys had to fight beforehand because we never got past that.

So fight the guy in front of you. You know, we've always said that really well. So very much the same thesis. And I think then, you know, there are obviously problems that becomes difficult than your scale. But I think the, I've kind of almost rather have scale issue than momentum issue. I think once you lose momentum, then, like, you're really, really in a bad shape. But, like, once, like, when you have the problem that everybody's, like, just trying to buy your product and you can't make or ship or, like, or your servers breaking down to produce enough, like, that seemed to be a problem that most people solve. Yeah, that's a really easy problem to fix.

Again, to your point, I'd much rather have a momentum problem. I mean, we'll figure out the other part. Scaling's relatively easy. It's either out of pocket or out of hide. But I think it's such a good question because everybody talks about it all the time. Yeah. How are you going to scale? I don't know.

Deal with it when I get there. It's like, how are you going to fight the fight that's in front of you? You'll get there. And then I love what you said earlier. It's like, listen, give yourself a day. That's such a pull-out day. At the end of the day, if you're not doing this at this point, just stop. Just move on to something else.

I think that's so important. I mean, I honestly, I'm pretty promiscuous about ideas and businesses. You know, like, I mean, everybody, and when I pitch VC, like, don't get me wrong. I tell a story of how I thought about this my whole life and it's the only thing I ever thought. It's the only thing I ever doing to do. The reality is, like, you know, 36 hours earlier. I was kind of thinking about these eight other ideas that kind of been intrigued about. And then I'm constantly just trying to get, like, external validation for this idea.

I need something to fuel kind of like the insanity that is building something, right? And that, I think, the best one is, of course, from customers. Like, if customers really love something, then it's very seductive. But otherwise, you have to find it from other places. And so I do think that people should find something where there is momentum, not like in the first few days, but like, maybe it's done. First couple months. Eight months. Yeah.

Anything beyond six months, you're wasting your time, in my opinion. I think so, too. So I think this default debt date is one that's pretty healthy. Gotcha. As someone who's been a VC in the past, yeah, I don't care about your stories. Just show me numbers. But the love of God, just show me numbers. For the love of God, I don't care if you've been thinking about it since you were five. If you guys are going to pitch, yes, get your Sequoia deck, make it pretty. But I don't care about you or your story. Just show me numbers, for the God's sakes. I'm doing this to get an ROI. Please. All right. So once that's done, let's talk about AI. You know, you've talked about how heavily you are into it and you wrote about it in your book. Walk me through that. Walk me through how you see AI changing things, changing jobs. changing the market, changing business, changing entrepreneurship. How do you see it changing things? Yeah, I think I definitely drank the Kool-Aid. And so I, as you, we explored earlier,

I'm an old fart when it comes to computers. So I have as well. When the internet didn't, wasn't around, right? And so I remember seeing the first kind of, kind of pots of the internet. Back then for people who really want to go back, there was something called Phytonet, and then there was a gopher and we're,

Veronica and stuff like that. And this was before the graphic internet was... But the second the browser was made, which was Mosaic, I think it was called. Then it was very basic. It only was gray and blue and black. And the only command you really had was like how big the size was and a blink command that everybody was too much.

But I think for most of them who saw it, we were like, this is going to change everything. Like when you saw it, you couldn't unsee it. And it was pretty clear, like, all the stuff you could build on top of it. And I basically decided this is one I'm going to spend my time on. I think I had the same experience in 2020 when I tried the Open AI playground, I think it was called.

This is it before chat, GPT. And you could, you basically had a text module, and you could write something, and you could press a button, and it basically would continue writing. And it was magical. You were like, holy shit. Like, this is going to change everything again. So I got access to it early,

and then I just got obsessed about what are all the processes I have, what is the workflows I do things with, and how do I atomize that, and how do I then replicate it with agents when possible? And that comes both through the organizations that I'm involved in, but then it also comes through entrepreneurship. Like, how can I, can I stop helping maybe four or five people a year building something, and how can I make tens of hundreds of thousands of people? And so that was really my venture into it. So for me with AI, I'm very similar to you. you. For me, it's, again, I was there when the internet was just starting. I remember the first

time I saw an ad that had a web address on a billboard and it had the HTTP. I was like, oh, that's adorable. They have no idea what they're doing. It's like, they think that that's important. I remember people like, oh, I have to get a demand. I don't want a demand. I remember thinking, okay, that's going to change things. That's not how I feel about AI in any way, shape, or form. For me, AI is to humans as fire is to humans. It is going to fundamentally change our entire experience across the board. And the head of Nvidia came out recently and he said, my job is I'm going to have AI replace every job or change it. That's our purpose. And I firmly believe it's going to do it. Now, how are you learning how to weaponize AI? Because in my opinion, there's going to be two

type of businesses, businesses that use AI and businesses going out of business. That's the only two that you're going to have. Yeah, I agree with that kind of directional sentiment. Here's a thing, And this, you can almost cut me shoulder if it gets a little bit too philosophical. I'm on a podcast with a Stanford professor about AI, called Beyond the Prompt. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. And the more that I understand AI,

the more I understand the way that we become good at it is to understand people. This is basically a tool that if you understand how to codify, how to articulate, how to kind of go from thin data to thick data, then you would really

get an ironman suit. And I was talking to the CEO of the Atlantic. And he was talking about saying, if you, if you, it's like an Iron Man suit and if you can bench press 200 pounds, then with this you could do 2,000s. But if you can only do

100 pounds, then you can only do, let's say, like 500 pounds. And so it is really exponential technology. And so over the, so I think, and back to the point of the book that the more that I understand how you connect with people, how do you create an emotional reaction, the better I think I can use AI, because AI don't care about anything. It is just a statistical model. And so I need to basically codify things that are special, things that are unique, thing that has taste, thing that has ethics, things that have originality, all these words, which we all intuitively understand what means, but if you try to basically create a metric for a machine to do that, it'll kind of give up.

Right. Oh, I think understanding behavioral science and behavioral economics is huge going into this. Because if everybody now has the ability to your point to websites and servers and copy and funnels and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what is the differentiator? Just like with Barkbite, you know, I mean, Barkbox, you know, how do you set up that differentiator? So for us, going into a world with AI, you have to understand that. If I want you to drink more wine, you're talking about cheap wine earlier, if I want you to drink more Italian wine versus French wine, And when you go to buy it, I'm going to play Italian music in the store. You are going to, your chances of buying is going to be exponentially more.

If I want you to buy more French wine, I'm just going to play French music. So we know that human beings are influenceable. Now that we have to that next level, being understanding your customers on that level, again, to your point, what's a difference here? There's seven or nine different types of, you know, play styles, which didn't know that until this conversation with puppies. I think if you can learn that, it changes. Now, what are the tools that you're using the most? What are the ones that you're like, okay, this is, this is, I mean, obviously chat GPT because no one writes emails anymore, but, and by the way, chat GPT, if you guys can get rid of dashes, that would be really helpful. It's really annoying. You're putting dashes and everything. You're putting dashes and everything. It's putting dashes and all you bastards. But what are the things that you're using and the ways that you're, because we have stuff and we call it weaponizing. I'm not 12. I don't need dashes. I don't need emojis and put, quit putting lines through everything because I have to delete it all you bastards. But what are the things that you're using and the ways that you're, because we have stuff and we call it weaponizing. We're weaponizing certain things.

We're making it so that I don't ever have to be on camera again. And there's some stuff with Google V, I think V-O-3 that we're using. That's just unbelievable that we're releasing and pushing out. And I'm just like, I didn't say that. I didn't, wait, was I here? Was I there? There was a picture once of my father when he was 16, and they handed it to me. And I was like, wow, those are the ugliest shorts I've ever worn because it looks so much like me.

That looks so much like my father. With chat GPT and stuff we're doing with Google, I'm like, wait, I was never in Mogadishu. Why does it look like I? So it's really gotten back. powerful, what we can do with it. What are some of the tools that you've seen have helped entrepreneurs the most? I think from a pure tactic on the point of view, they're going to go a little bit more philosophical. At a tackle view, I've gotten very into Replit recently and what's called Claude coat. Now, I don't, you know, I can, I've been to

a code class before, but I'm not a code. That's about it. Yeah. Now, what I'm doing now with Replit, Repple is a tool that basically allow you to kind of write whatever you want and it'll write the code for you and then you'll deploy it to a server and then if it doesn't work. There's also a one called Loveable. What I am doing now is basically any service, anything that I do repeatedly, I will now build my own SaaS service for myself for. Right. So I built my own CRM system. I build my own to do backend server. I have a podcast and so people who apply for it now, it runs through a system where it. listen to a bunch of their previous podcasts and look at what they've done and look at how we'd only interview people and give it the skull. And so I am now used, I used to just put everything in chat dbt, and increasingly now I'm trying to build like small systems that basically makes everything for me. So I can spend time on what I enjoy doing, which is just, you know, talking to other humans and, and kind of like figuring out how I can solve problems for the customers I serve. Gotcha. Which one has been your best ROI?

because my best ROI is not AI. It's weird, but it's not AI. RI is a Google script that I got clod to write that looks at all my newsletters I get in within a 20-fowized circle, period. And then it basically writes a short summary on all these different ones in bullet points using language I enjoy. And then it highlights anything that might serve any of the, the specific business objectives I have for that core.

And so I only read one newsletter every day, and that's that. And then when something kind of piques my interest, I go deeper. But I do now get like a pretty launch amount of newsletters come into my inbox. And then I kind of use them like this. Use your tool to simplify it. I used to just be overwhelmed. I used to kind of subscribe to them. And then I see it once in a while, I'm like, oh, I should have read that.

I probably should have read that. Yeah. I just don't. It's information overwhelmed. When you're going into and you wrote the book, everyone, and people don't understand this when we write books as authors, we are so insecure that we dump all of our best knowledge into the book because we're like, please, I hope this is at least good.

What is the biggest takeaway that you want someone who has your book to implement immediately? Well, I think the first one, if you listen to this and have this inkling about, I'd like to start something, I just don't know how to, is to stop something. I mean, like, there's just so many people. Let me go on back. I think basically, if you look at the U.S., the whole backbone of the country is our entrepreneurship.

If there's one thing that we, as Europeans, like I'm more impressed with than anything else, it is just the entrepreneurial optimism that this country have. And it is just incredible, and it's on, there's nobody else in the world that has that. Now, I think that a lot of people then go around and just say, And so you built like a whole country based on like all these small businesses too. I think a lot of people who might listen to this go like, oh, yeah, but I don't have a big idea.

And I think the first thing takeaway is that it doesn't have to be a big idea. Firstly, it might become a big idea once you get going. But two, like let's say you can build a business that makes 500K and a million dollars a year. That's a huge ton of money. I mean, like, that's not a venture baggable business. That's not something that's going to put you on the cover of fast company. but it's a very, very nice life to serve somebody and make a decent amount of revenue out of that.

And so I would say if there's one takeaway, it's like if you have even like a little bit of an urge, like just get going. No, I agree. And there's ways to get going. And I think what you talked about earlier, and I think if anybody's listening to this, the most important part is put your stop date.

Just if you don't sit there and smash your head up against the wall. And then also take you're out of the picture. You don't matter. You're never going to matter. I mean, you might matter to your mom. But other than that, you don't matter. The pain you resolve matters more than anything else. It's the result.

So people get caught up and I want to create an offer that's amazing. I'm like, stop with the offers for the love of God. Stop telling me about your damn offer. Tell me the pain you eliminate. What is a result that you produce on the highest level? And then you call it swiping. I talk about taking my wallet out and throw it at your face. Pitch me in a way that makes me want to throw my wallet at your face.

That's angry that you're no longer selling me. And that changes the ballgame. So what was the name of the book? The book is called Me My Customer. customer in AI. And it has the story about how now the 60% of people can become entrepreneur and then talks about these new type of companies that I think is going to be built. We call them donkey cones. And they're not unicorns. They're donkey cones. They grind like mules, but they're probably like unicorns. And so they're definitely brief. And I think

of them as kind of like two people companies, they'll all turnover, that kind of thing. And the third kind of part of the book is this relationship capital. What do I think of some of the ways to build a mode in a world where everybody can build anything with AI. And so we go through those kind of like three things that I mentioned and give a lot of examples of stuff that works for us. Can you give me an example of each one just before we wrap up before I want to drive it your book and off the top of your head? Could you give me an example? Yeah. I mean like I think on depth for example with with bark you know like a good way to feel seen is that we as founders still kind of like read the email like customer support. We still kind of have the involvement

and those kind of things. And our biggest team is our customer support team. It's in Columbus, Ohio, where people are naturally sweet. And so we spent a lot of time making sure that when people talk to us, they feel truly seen. On the density share, I think a good example is probably how much people share content that we make and how engaged they are in our products. And we don't see it only as a success that people kind of like listen to us.

It is that we kind of have a undirectional relationship. And durability, we stay in the bog world, is that we used to do treats, and now we do airlines, which obviously is a pretty big lead. That's a big job. As we go through it,

but there's more examples that are kind of a little bit more closer to home that makes it easier for people to compute. Gotcha. If someone wants to track you down, because there's a lot of questions because I want to get my hands on the book

and I want to read it because you've done, you've been so successful with it. I'm just going to know that it's actually 2005 because NT's five years ago. I'll give you a hack, though, for the book if you don't get the time to read it, which I do. You buy it on Amazon,

you find a way of getting the copy out, the text out, and then you put a notebook L.M and you get them to do their 20 minutes a little kind of discussion about it. That's basically like a way to kind of compute a, I think, a good book in 25 minutes if you go. It's definitely way. I can just get the audio book and listen to it at two and a half time speed. I'm not walking.

It's just easier. Which is funny because then when I meet the author, I get very confused because their voice doesn't match anymore. I was like, you don't sound like Mickey Mouse. I actually read the, my first book I didn't read all that. But this time, I stumbled, I sat through like the hours and hours of reading it out with my co-author, Nicholas. and so people can listen to my Danish accent for a long time. So if people want to track you down,

because there's going to be a lot more questions and they're going to hit me for it, how do they track you down? What's the best way to get a hold of you? How do they do that? I'm very active on LinkedIn, so that's probably the best place to go. I have a substack that people sometimes read

and then obviously have the podcast, beyond the prompt, and I have the book. But I think the easy way is just to hook me up on LinkedIn. and I accept people into my network and I look at home. And what is that exact way to find you on LinkedIn? I'm going to make you plug yourself here because I want people to track you down. Thank you. My last name is Wordlin.

Maybe you can put in the show notes. Yeah, it's going to be in the show notes. Oh, you write, Henrik Barkbox, and then LinkedIn, then I'll probably all show up and Google. So I guess it. Man, I really appreciate you. Come on. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

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