Infamous America - BOMBINGS Ep. 2 | “L.A. Times, Part 2: Trial of the Century”
Episode Date: January 22, 2025Immediately after the deadly explosion at the L.A. Times building, celebrated detective William Burns begins an investigation. He follows a long trail of clues left behind by the bombers and quickly l...earns of the identities of the three men who were involved, notably J.B. McNamara. McNamara and his brother enlist famed defense attorney Clarence Darrow as they prepare for the Trial of the Century, but Darrow quickly becomes convinced of their guilt. For the full story of the L.A. Times bombing, check out the fantastic book “Deadly Times” by Lew Irwin. Join Black Barrel+ for ad-free episodes and bingeable seasons: blackbarrel.supportingcast.fm/join Apple users join Black Barrel+ for ad-free episodes, bingeable seasons and bonus episodes. Click the Black Barrel+ banner on Apple to get started with a 3-day free trial. On YouTube, subscribe to INFAMOUS+ for ad-free episodes and bingeable seasons: hit “Join” on the Legends YouTube homepage. For more details, please visit www.blackbarrelmedia.com. Our social media pages are: @blackbarrelmedia on Facebook and Instagram, and @bbarrelmedia on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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In the dark hours of the morning of October 1, 1910, Harrison Otis awakened in his luxury home near Mexico City.
He owned nearly one million acres of land in Mexico, and he was there to check on his estate
and to celebrate the country's centennial with other dignitaries.
He learned the horrific news of the bombing of the building of his newspaper, the Los Angeles Times.
Otis was relieved to hear that fate had intervened to save his son-in-law, Harry Chandler,
a vice president and assistant general manager at the paper.
Chandler just happened to leave the LA Times building around midnight, which was earlier than usual.
He narrowly avoided being killed by the bomb that cratered much of the three-story building
and killed 21 people.
For Harrison Otis, at his Mexican retreat, the breaking news continued throughout the morning.
Just before 10 a.m., at the fancy home of business titan Felix Zalander, on the edge of downtown
in town Los Angeles, a maid found a small leather satchel sitting on the ground underneath a
bedroom window. The maid informed a neighbor about the package, and the neighbor called the police.
When the cops arrived, they determined the satchel contained a bomb. Inside the satchel,
there was a device wrapped in newspaper. The device contained 16 sticks of dynamite,
and it was later learned that the dynamite contained enough explosive nitroglycerin
to completely destroy the house and all those around it.
The reason the bomb hadn't detonated was at the small clock that was being used as a timer,
was wound too tight. Shortly afterward, about a mile away at Otis's mansion in the MacArthur
Park neighborhood, a caretaker found a small leather satchel sitting under a bay window.
The caretaker would not have known about the device at Zalander's house,
but like Zillandelars made, he was suspicious.
The police were called, and a patrolman who started to open the bag, threw it away, and it exploded in Otis's yard.
The explosion created a deep hole, but luckily no one was hurt.
Harris and Otis and Felix Zalandler were partners in a rabid anti-union effort in Los Angeles.
A couple hours later, while the police still grappled with the attempted bombings at their homes,
and while firefighters still work to put out the flames at the smoldering ruin that was the L.A. Times building,
the bomber was boarding a train in downtown L.A. He was James McNamara, better known as J.B.
His older brother, John, was the secretary-treasurer of the powerful iron workers union
and one of the principal organizers of a dynamiting campaign across the U.S. in 1910.
The effort was designed to force big businesses to bargain with unions.
The campaign was supposed to be violent, but non-lethal.
Up to that time, no one had been injured or killed during any of the dozens of bombings
that had been carried out by J.B. McNamara and the Iron Workers' primary bomber, Ordy McManigle.
The bombs were supposed to be scare tactics.
They were supposed to destroy property and push the business owners to negotiate.
The Los Angeles bombings changed everything.
The L.A. Times bomb killed 21 people and injured 17.
The bombs at the homes of Otis and Zalandalar were clearly intended to kill both men,
and as collateral damage, anyone else who was in the immediate vicinity.
Harrison Otis and the people in his inner circle like Harry Chandler,
Felix Zalandler, and others were certain that the bombs were the work of pro-union terrorists.
They were right, but they just had to be.
to prove it. George Alexander, the mayor of Los Angeles, also wanted proof. He wanted to
prevent his city from becoming forever entrenched in the Union versus business wars that were
tearing apart Chicago, Denver, Seattle, and so many other major cities. And of course, he didn't
want any more terrorist acts in his jurisdiction. While the bomber, J.B. McNamara was fleeing
L.A. on a train bound for San Francisco, Mayor Alexander was hiring
the most famous detective in the country.
William J. Burns had been nicknamed America's Sherlock Holmes by none other than Arthur Conan Doyle,
the creator of the legendary fictional character of British literature.
Burns was a celebrated private detective and a former Secret Service agent, and as it turned out,
he was on a train to L.A. when the newspaper building blew up.
He could begin the manhunt immediately.
But despite the absurd trail of Clems,
the bombers had left behind, the investigation would be long and exhausting.
From Black Barrel Media, this is Infamous America.
I'm your host, Chris Wimmer, and this season we're telling the stories of the LA Times bombing of 1910,
the mad bomber of the 1950s, and the crazy case of the Harvey's Casino bombing in Nevada in 1980.
This is episode 2, LA Times bombing Part 2, Trial of the Century.
In October 1910, William Burns was nearing his 49th birthday.
People often described him as dapper with a fondness for three-piece suits, bowler hats, and a thick, bristly mustache.
Burns had no formal training in detective work, but that didn't stop him from closing an unprecedented number of cases in everything from counterfeiting to land fraud to murder.
After serving a stint as the head of the Secret Service, he became the lead investigator on a
a long case of theft and corruption involving San Francisco officials. When the case finally ended
in 1908, he did some private work before founding a detective firm that rivaled the famed Pinkerton
Agency. On the morning of the LA Times bombing, Burns was on a train to Los Angeles to meet
with a big client. The porter on the train woke up Burns with a wire from L.A. Mayor George
Alexander. LAPD officers met Burns at the train station and took him straight to the site of the
L.A. Times building. Like everyone else, Burns was horrified. Most of the front of the building,
which was nicknamed the fortress, was caved in. The parts that remained were charred and blackened.
Giant piles of rubble contained twisted steel, scorched wood, and crumbling bricks. But as bad as it looked,
Burns had seen sites like it before. In addition to his other cases, he had been slowly investigating
bombings nationwide for a huge construction company. Those bombings had done plenty of damage,
but they had not killed anyone. If some or all of the bombings were connected, then the bombers
had escalated their attacks. They either wanted to kill people or they didn't care if they did.
When Burns learned about the bombs at the homes of Otis and Zillandalar, and that the
device at Zalandalar's home was still intact, he knew he had his first clue.
The LAPD had never seen anything like it, but Burns had.
It looked just like a device he had seen about a month earlier in Peoria, Illinois.
It was the only one of four that didn't explode in a rail yard.
The detective remembered the tight, precise construction of the brass pieces.
He recalled the delicate wiring and the particular brand of children's alarm clock that
It was used as a timer to schedule the detonation.
But most of all, Burns remembered a unique stamp on the battery that powered the clock.
The stamp on the battery of the unexploded bomb in Peoria was the same as the stamp on the
battery of the unexploded bomb in LA.
In the Peoria case, the bomber had used a can of nitroglycerin instead of dynamite, but
the other elements were too similar to ignore.
bomber or bombers had great skill, and the devices were not easily replicated.
If the Peoria bomber and the L.A. bomber were not the same person, then there was a high likelihood
that they knew each other and had probably worked together. When Burns had investigated the
Peoria bomb, he called the company in Portland, Indiana that was stamped on the nitro-glissorin
can. The company knew who had purchased the nitro. The buyer was a man who called himself
J. W. McGraw. He bought a lot of the stuff and loaded it onto a horse-drawn wagon.
He also told him he was headed to Muncie, Indiana. So after Burns had been hired,
he looked through the hotel registers in Muncie until he found a J.W. McGraw,
with the same handwriting as the one on the order for the nitroglycerin. After some more investigation,
Burns received a detailed description of McGraw and quickly tied him to the four bombs at the Peoria
a rail yard. Then, the trail led Burns to a rock quarry in Illinois. But at the quarry,
the trail went cold. Burns was not able to learn the true identity of the man who called himself
J. W. McGraw, though Burns was much closer than he realized. J. W. McManigal was Ordy McManigal,
the primary bomber for the Iron Workers Union, and the man who had taught J.B. McNamara
how to make bombs. That's why the bombs in Peoria and L.L.
looked so similar. McNamara used McManigle's design. Ordi McManigal was a dynamite expert because he
worked at a rock quarry where he had to set explosive charges all the time. His bosses at the Iron
Workers Union had forced him to do the bombing campaign, and then they had paired him up with
J.B. McNamara for a short time. Now, as self-styled detective William Burns looked at the
unexploded bomb from Felix Alandilar's house, he recognized the work.
of the mysterious bomber he knew as J.W. McGraw. And like the Peoria case, Burns had a lead on the
explosives. The nitro can in the unexploded bomb in Peoria had been stamped with the name of
the company in Portland, Indiana, and the dynamite in the unexploded bomb in L.A. had the same feature.
It was stamped with a name, the giant powder company outside San Francisco, arguably the largest
supplier of dynamite on the West Coast.
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On the afternoon of the bombing, October 1st, 1910, the bomber J.B. McNamara took a train from L.A. to
San Francisco, the West Coast headquarters of the Iron Workers Union.
McNamara, the leader of the three-man bombing team, spent four days drinking and carousing
in the Bay Area before catching a train to Indianapolis, Indiana.
He expected high praise and a high dollar bonus for the successful bombing of the LA Times building,
but he received neither from the IW bosses who ran the bombing campaign.
They were mad that he had left so much evidence behind because one of the bombs didn't explode.
And strangely, they were mad that people had died.
They had authorized three bombs that they must have known would kill people,
but they were still upset when it happened.
So, within a few days of each other, bomber J.B. McNamara left San Francisco and Detective
William Burns arrived in San Francisco. Burns went to the giant powder company, the company
that made and sold the dynamite to McNamara's team. Employees remembered the two men who
bought the dynamite because the order and the process of negotiating it were highly unusual.
When J.B. and one of his partners, Matthew Schmidt, showed up to buy a batch,
they demanded sticks of dynamite that were 99% nitroglycerin, essentially the strongest
dynamite available. The sales clerk refused, and after a bunch of haggling, they settled on
500 pounds of dynamite that was 80% nitro. That was still a huge quantity, and it was
unusually strong, and therefore it was memorable.
The employees told Detective Burns as much as they could, but they didn't know the real names of the buyers.
McNamara and Schmidt had used aliases, but luckily for Burns, the trio of bombers had left
plenty of other clues behind. Investigators working for Burns located the boat that the bombers
had used to transport the dynamite from the powder company across San Francisco Bay.
It had been abandoned with key evidence still on board. They were,
pieces of clothing, which would soon be important, and handprints, which would turn out to be
from McNamara, and clear evidence of the shoddy attempt by the bombers to change the name
of the boat on the side of the vessel from pastime to peerless. Investigators traced the men to
various hotels and boarding houses in the Bay Area. Schmidt and McNamara had had romantic affairs
with separate women who ran the boarding houses, and the women readily offered up information about the
suspects to keep themselves out of trouble.
On October 16th, a landlord went out to his rental cottage to check on the three men
who were renting it.
Neighbors hadn't seen the men for a long time, and the landlord was concerned.
When he led himself into the cottage, he was terrified to find crates of dynamite covered
with burlap.
The crates were marked 80% nitroglycerin.
Investigators in San Francisco notified their counterparts in Los Angeles of the discovery
of a huge cache of 80% nitro dynamite.
Burns ordered the unexploded dynamite from the Zalandalar bomb sent up the coast to compare it to
the cache. Sure enough, it was the same chemical makeup. Investigators had confirmed the source of
the dynamite, and by extension, the fact that they were looking for three bombers. In addition,
they found clothes in the cottage that matched the ones on the abandoned boat that was used to
to transport the dynamite.
Lastly, and most importantly,
the landlord delivered the first true identity
of one of the bombers.
He provided the name and address of the man
who had rented the property, David Kaplan,
the third of the three-man team.
Authorities raided Kaplan's house in San Francisco.
He wasn't there, but plenty of evidence was.
There were communications that connected Kaplan
to McNamara and to a known anarchist who live nearby,
Investigators then raided the home of the anarchist and found the first direct evidence
that linked the suspects in San Francisco to the bombing in Los Angeles.
In one of the anarchist's couches, stuffed into a cushion, was a thin piece of cloth.
On it, someone had traced the image of a building and had specifically noted an alleyway that
was connected to the building.
The building was marked with the letter T, and it was clearly a map of the LA Times building.
The alleyway, almost certainly, represented Ink Alley, the long, narrow corridor that was open
to the public, and the place where the newspaper stored its barrels of highly flammable printers
ink.
It was no coincidence that that was the location of the bomb at the LA Times Building.
By the end of October 1910, famous detective William Burns knew the identity of David Kaplan,
and he had descriptions of J.B. McNamara and Matthew Schmidt, though not their names.
His investigations led him up to Washington State, where he learned from a witness at an anarchist
commune that a man matching J.B.'s description had talked about a supplier of nitroglycerin in Portland,
Indiana. The witness, like many people, had heard of Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine,
but not Portland, Indiana. That oddity caused the information to stick in the witness's memory.
Burns had another link in the chain. One of the suspects was connected to the dynamized,
and everything else in San Francisco,
the construction technique of the bombs in Los Angeles and Peoria, Illinois,
and now the source of the nitro that was used in the Peoria bomb.
So it was time to return to the pursuit of the man
who had purchased the nitroglycerin in Portland, Indiana,
and used it to blow up the rail yard in Peoria.
This time, Burns was able to trace the Peoria bomber,
the mystery man known as J.W. McGraw,
to the city of Indianapolis.
There, Burns learned that McGraw had been seen talking to John McNamara, Secretary-Treasurer
of the Iron Workers' Union.
Burns already knew of the older McNamara brother because of John's militant, pro-union
rhetoric. Burns assigned some of his detectives to follow John McNamara day and night.
The effort led to another conspirator, Herbert Hawken.
Hawken was one of the executives at the Iron Workers Union who had organized the year-long
campaign. He was the one who had blackmailed Ordy McManigle, the real name of J.W. McGrath,
into building and planting bombs for the IW. Then Hawkin had been caught skimming the fees that
he was supposed to pay to McManigle and a few others. As a consequence, he had been demoted from his
executive leadership position. He was angry at his loss of influence, and he gave in to temptation.
For a hefty price, Hawkin became a spy for his youth.
Union's biggest enemy, the construction company that was paying William Burns to investigate
a series of bombings, most notably the bombing of the rail yard in Peoria, Illinois.
An executive at the construction company connected Hawkin to Burns' son, who was a detective
at his father's agency. Hawkin knew all the secrets, and he was the key to unlocking the
identities of the other two L.A. bombers and the Peoria bomber. He revealed that the man known
as J. W. McGraw was Orte McManigle from Chicago, who worked at a rock quarry there in Illinois.
McManigle was responsible for bombings all over the Midwest and the East Coast, including the Peoria
bombing. The man known as J.B. Bryce was J.B. McNamara of Indianapolis, Indiana. He was the younger
brother of John McNamara, the Secretary-Treasurer of the Iron Workers Union. McManigel and J.B. McNamara
had been partners for a short time, and McManigal had taught McNamara how to build bombs.
That was why the unexploded bomb in L.A. looked so similar to the unexploded bomb in Peoria.
Burns' son gave the information to his father, and his father swooped in to interrogate Hawken further.
Hawken agreed to supply more information, and the thing Burns needed most was positive identification
of the suspects. He wanted to show pictures of McManagel and McNamara
to all the eyewitnesses in northern and southern California,
but he didn't have photos of either man.
Hawkin came through with a plan.
He told Burns that the two Irishmen planned to go
on a month-long hunting trip in Wisconsin in November.
So, Burns sent four of his detectives to Wisconsin.
They pretended to be on a hunting trip near the bombers,
and they managed to get photos of McNamara.
The undercover detectives mailed the film to Burns in Chicago.
Near the end of November, Burns returned to Los Angeles.
He showed one of the images of McNamara to a clerk at the New Baltimore Hotel.
The clerk recognized the blurry figure in the picture.
The clerk knew the man as Mr. J.B. Bryce, who had checked in with two large suitcases right before the bombing
and had checked out on the afternoon of the bombing.
Burns had his first positive ID, and his undercover detectives were still camping in the woods
of Wisconsin and keeping an eye on the bombers while they waited for further instructions.
But on the morning of November 27th, the detectives discovered that the bombers had vanished sometime
during the night. All that remained of their campsite were the embers of a dying campfire.
Near the end of November, Ordy McManigal and J.B. McNamara had received a telegram that caused
them to cut their hunting trip short. The cryptic message was addressed to J.B., and it was from his brother
John. It seemed to say that investigators were not looking in the right place for the identities
of the L.A. bombers. The meaning seemed to be McManigal and McNamara could stop hiding in the woods.
It was safe to head back to Indianapolis. The pair packed up, made a short stop in Chicago
so McManigal could see his family, and then continued to Indianapolis. They told John in detail
about the strange hunters who had appeared in their area. The guys had brand-neged, and they had brand-
new hunting gear, and they didn't seem like hunters. Ironically, John was happy that the four
hunters probably worked for Burns. If the hunters were actually detectives, and they had spent
days up there near McManagle and McNamara without arresting them, then America's favorite detective
probably had no evidence. What John McNamara didn't know, of course, was that Burns actually
had a mountain of evidence. But Burns didn't just want the bombers. He wanted their
bosses too. He didn't want to spring his trap too early and risk losing the bigger catch.
By December of 1910, everyone involved in the investigation was under intense public pressure.
And at the end of the month, the pressure increased. On orders from John McNamara,
Ordy McManigal traveled to Los Angeles and bombed an ironworks. He set the bomb off on Christmas
day. It partially wrecked the plant, but thankfully no one was there to get hurt or
killed. Instead of praising McManigal, John McNamara yelled at him. McNamara had expected far more damage
than just a large hole in the side of a building. The exchange was the last straw for McManigal.
He had never wanted to do the bombings. He'd been forced to do them by Herbert Hawken. Hawken had
threatened McManigal with the loss of his job and being blacklisted from all other jobs
within the Union's sphere of influence.
If McManigle wanted to keep providing for his family,
he had to do the bombings.
And now he was understandably angry
about all the risk he had taken for the IW over the past year.
The underappreciation would come back to haunt
everyone who conspired to bomb the LA Times.
Four months passed as the Burns Detective Agency
continued to pursue McManagel and McNamara.
Finally, on April 14th, 1911,
Burns and his son laid a trap for the two bombers in Detroit, Michigan.
The detectives and local police officers raided a hotel and arrested Ortey McManigle and J.B. McNamara.
In the hotel room, the lawman found dynamite, blasting caps, and alarm clocks in the bomber's suitcases.
The detectives told McNamara and McManigal that they were being arrested for a bank robbery in Chicago.
The pair were confused, but then relieved.
They had airtight alibis for the alleged crime.
So both men agreed to accompany Burns to Chicago.
In Chicago, Burns arrested McManigal and McNamara for the bombing of the L.A. Times building.
Burns attached scores of other charges related to bombings across the country,
and he likely knew by that time that Ortey McManigal had not been directly involved in the L.A. Times bombing.
Burns was still looking for the two other men in the three-man team.
David Kaplan and Matthew Schmidt. But at the moment, his higher priority was to arrest the iron
workers' bosses who had been organizing and authorizing the bombing campaign. To that end, secrecy was
crucial, and that was when Burns really started to stray out of the bounds of the law. In Chicago,
Burns did not take McManigal and McNamara to a police station. He took them to the home of
a police sergeant, where they were held for nearly a week. Burns confirmed that he
convinced McManigal that he knew everything about McManigal's cross-country bombings the previous year.
McManigal could only save himself by cutting a deal.
McManigal was still angry about the way he had been manipulated and treated by nearly
everyone in the IW. He agreed to tell all he knew in order to get a lighter prison sentence
and to avoid the death penalty. Eventually, he signed a confession that directly implicated
John McNamara, J.B. McNamara, Herbert Hawken, and other IW leaders.
John McNamara was the proverbial Big Fish, who was the authority behind at least 100 bomb
attacks over six years. With the confession in hand, Burns convinced the governor of Indiana
to issue an arrest warrant for John McNamara. On April 22nd, Burns and two local
police detectives burst into a board meeting of the IW in Indianapolis and arrested John McNamara.
Thanks to McManigal's confession, the detectives also recovered truckloads of dynamite that McNamara
had hidden in a downtown office building. A circuit court judge refused McNamara's request for an
attorney. Without any legal authority to do so, the judge released McNamara into the custody of
William Burns. Less than 30 minutes after John McNamara's arrest, Ordy McManigal and both McNamara's
were on a train to California with a host of lawmen. Almost immediately after the bombers were
put on a train to California, the American Federation of Labor, the AFL, became involved in
the defense of the McNamara brothers. It helped that John McNamara had lied to the leader of the
AFL and said he had nothing to do with the LA Times bombing. The powerful consortium of labor unions
secured the services of famed attorney Clarence Darrow to defend the McNameras.
Darrow rose to prominence five years earlier in 1906 when he defended the head of the Western
Federation of Miners who was accused of killing a former governor of Idaho.
Darrow would go on to defend Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb in 1924 in one of the most notorious murder cases in American history.
The following year, he defended John Scopes in the famous Scopes Monkey Trial,
which debated the legality of teaching the theory of evolution in school instead of or alongside of the theory of divine creation of humankind.
At first, Darrow believed the McNamara brothers were innocent,
and he argued that the destruction of the LA Times
had been the result of leaking gas.
But over the next eight months,
he arrived at the painful conclusion
that there was just too much evidence stacked against them
to get an acquittal at trial.
He decided to try for plea deals.
On December 1st, 1911,
J.B. McNamara pleaded guilty
to the bombing of the Los Angeles Times
and the murders that happened as a result.
He admitted to slipping a suitcase bomb
with 16 sticks of dynamite into ink alley.
In a handwritten confession that he read in the courtroom,
he said he never intended to take anyone's life.
But the judge called him a murderer at heart
and sentenced him to life in prison.
John McNamara got off easier.
He pleaded guilty to ordering the bombing of the Ironworks plant in Los Angeles,
the bombing that was carried out by Ordie McManagel
three months after the LA Times bombing.
John McNamara was sentenced to 15 years in prison.
The brothers were handcuffed and sent to San Quentin prison.
After the case of the McNamara brothers, the dam burst,
and dozens of members of the Iron Workers Union were convicted for their roles in the
multi-year bombing campaign.
Because Orte McManigal gave a full confession that implicated the campaign's ringleaders,
he was only charged with bombing the Ironworks in L.A.,
and he avoided prosecution for scores of other bombings around the country to which he could be linked.
McManigal received a suspended sentence and did not serve time in prison.
J.B. McNamara spent 30 years in prison, and he died in San Quentin in March of 1941.
John McNamara served nine years of his sentence and died in Butte, Montana in May of 1941,
almost exactly two months after his younger brother passed away.
It would take another three years after the McNamara brothers went to prison for William Burns and other detectives to track down J.B.'s partners in crime, Matthew Schmidt and David Kaplan.
On the 4th of July, 1914, an apartment in New York City exploded. Three anarchists were blown to pieces while making bombs.
The NYPD didn't think the explosion was connected to the infamous string of bombings a couple years earlier, but Detective William Burns,
wanted to see the bomb fragments. Sure enough, the pieces bore similarities to the ones he had seen
in connection to the L.A. bombs of 1910. In the wake of the accidental and deadly explosion in New York,
Burns announced that his men had been following Matthew Schmidt for a long time. They hoped he
would lead them to David Kaplan. But after the explosion in New York, Burns didn't want to risk
further destruction and loss of life. His men arrested Schmidt, and when they saw him,
searched his belongings, they found a reference to Kaplan living near Seattle.
Detectives arrested David Kaplan on February 18, 1915, and Kaplan and Schmidt received life
sentences for their roles in the LA Times bombing.
Next time on Infamous America, we'll spend a lot of time in New York, but fast forward
to the 1950s.
For six years, bombs exploded in and around the city, and yet the bomber remained a ghost,
and his motives remained a mystery.
The hunt for the man who became known as the Mad Bomber was one of the largest in New York history.
That story begins next week on Infamous America.
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For the full story of the attack on the LA Times,
check out the book Deadly Times,
The 1910 bombing of the Los Angeles Times
and America's Forgotten Decade of Terror by Lou Irwin.
This episode was researched and written by Julia Brickland.
Original music by Rob Valier.
I'm co-writer, host, and producer, Chris Wimmer.
Find us at our website, blackbarrelmedia.com
or on our social media channels.
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Thanks for listening.
