Infamous America - ZODIAC KILLER Ep. 5 | “Presidio Heights”

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Two weeks after the attack at Lake Berryessa, the Zodiac shoots and kills a taxi cab driver in San Francisco. Multiple witnesses see the killer, but the police still struggle to find him. The killer sends more letters and now issues threats against school kids in the San Francisco region. At the same time, it appears as though he organizes a stunt with a local TV show. The bizarre TV episode leads to more frustration for police, and more letters from the killer.   Join Black Barrel+ for ad-free episodes and bingeable seasons: blackbarrel.supportingcast.fm/join   Apple users join Black Barrel+ for ad-free episodes, bingeable seasons and bonus episodes. Click the Black Barrel+ banner on Apple to get started with a 3-day free trial.   On YouTube, subscribe to INFAMOUS+ for ad-free episodes and bingeable seasons: hit “Join” on the Legends YouTube homepage.   For more details, please visit www.blackbarrelmedia.com. Our social media pages are: @blackbarrelmedia on Facebook and Instagram, and @bbarrelmedia on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

December 20th, 1968, 17-year-old David Faraday, 16-year-old Betty Lou Jensen, murdered, Lake Herman Road, Solano County, California. July 4th, 1969, 22-year-old Darlene Farron, murdered, 19-year-old Mike Mijou, severely wounded, Blue Rock Springs Park, Vallejo, California. September 27th, 1969, 22-year-old Cecilia Shepherd, murdered, 20-year-old Brian Hartnell, severely wounded, Lake Beriesa, Napa County, California. October 11, 1969, 29-year-old Paul Stein, murdered, corner of Washington Street and Cherry Street, Presidio Heights neighborhood, San Francisco, California. Exactly two weeks after Cecilia Shepard and Brian Hartnell were viciously stabbed on the shores of Lake Beriesa, the killer struck again. In some ways, the attack would loosely follow familiar patterns. In other ways, it would be different. But if a pattern had been established with the attacks at Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs Park,

it had already been broken at Lake Beriesa, though a better word would probably be evolved. It would be nearly a decade before John Douglas and the team at the behavioral science unit of the FBI coined the term serial killer. By the late 1960s, there were relatively few examples of what we today would call a serial killer. Before the 1960s, American history was certainly littered with criminals who had killed multiple people. That wasn't a new phenomenon. But most wouldn't be considered serial killers as we defylus. the term today. For many of the killers, the underlying motive was money. There are lots of cases in the deep recesses of American history of men and women murdering multiple spouses, but in most

of those cases, the goal was to inherit money. The act of killing was not the point of the murder. There are also plenty of spree killers, or mass murderers, as they're also called. On September 6th, 1949, 28-year-old Howard Unra walked out of his home in Camden, New Jersey, and shot and killed 14 people at random. In a space of eight days in January 1958, 19-year-old Charles Starkweather killed 10 people in Nebraska and Wyoming. On August 1, 1966, 25-year-old Charles Whitman stabbed his mother and wife to death, and then climbed to the top of the top of the the bell tower on the campus of the University of Texas and shot people at random. In total, he murdered 17 people.

For those killers and many others like them, the act of killing was the point, that's true. But the act did not have the ritualistic quality that would become a core component of the category of serial killer. For serial killers, the enjoyment of the act, which often coincided with some amount of pain and suffering by the victim, was the motive for the murder. With the Boston Strangler in 1962, a new breed of modern monster was born. Over the years, one of the many things criminal profilers

have learned about serial killers is that nearly all of them evolve. Very few serial killers murder the exact same type of person in the exact same way every time. Maybe the best example is Richard Ramirez, the nightstocks, who terrorized Los Angeles neighborhoods from 1984 to 1985.

He was a vile chameleon who murdered at least 14 people. He killed men, women and children, different races, different ages, different methods. Some he stabbed, some he bludgeoned, some he shot. Some he tied up and tortured. Some he didn't. Some he sexually assaulted. Some he didn't. Whatever rules had been established.

for serial killers, Richard Ramirez broke them all, and yet he was undoubtedly a serial killer. So it's entirely within the realm of possibility that a killer who abruptly shot four people would choose to stab his next two victims and then go back to using a gun. As detectives with the Napa County Sheriff's Department made some decent progress on leads from the Lake Beriasa crime scene, a whole new set of detectives would become embroiled in the Zodiac case. And if they thought it had been strange up to that point, with the letters to the newspapers and the ciphers and the phone calls to police departments, they hadn't seen nothing yet. From Black Barrel Media, this is infamous America. I'm your host, Chris Wimmer, and this season

we're telling the story of the Zodiac Killer, one of the most notorious, unsolved criminal cases in American history. This is episode five, Presidio Heights. Paul Stein had thinning hair thick glasses and a mustache, all of which made him look older than his 29 years. He was earning his Ph.D. in English from San Francisco State College. In October of 1969, he was less than three months from completing the program. But by that time, the high cost of the program had forced him to take a job at the Yellow Cab Taxi Company. He worked the night shift from 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. On Saturday, October 11th, exactly two weeks after the Lake Beriesa attack, Paul started work at 9 p.m.

He finished his first trip of the night at about 9.30 p.m. And then he received a call from dispatch that told him to pick up a person at the corner of Mason and Geary. That intersection is in the historic Union Square District, and it's full of expensive hotels, shops, and restaurants. Paul drove to the intersection and picked up a man who requested to go about three miles to the corner of Washington and Maple in the Presidio Heights neighborhood. Paul wrote the request in his logbook, switched on the meter, and started the short drive. For reasons that remain unknown, Paul ended up driving to the corner of Washington and Cherry, one block west of the original destination. Paul shifted the car into park to accept payment for the trip. From the backseat, the passenger placed a 9mm handgun to the back of Paul's head and pulled the trigger.

The killer fired one shot behind Paul Stein's right ear, and Paul pitched forward in the front of the car. There are no known witnesses to the crime or to the few seconds immediately afterward, but the killer must have exited the car, opened the front passenger door, and torn off a large portion of Paul's shirt. The killer took Paul's wallet and pulled the car key out of the ignition. He wiped the inside of the car with a piece of cloth, presumably to remove fingerprints. Detectives would later find a pair of black leather gloves in the car. They were a size 7, which was fairly small for a man.

Regardless, they raised a whole host of questions that would never be answered. Did they belong to the killer? If so, why had he left them behind? If they were his and he'd been wearing them while he was in the car, why did he have to wipe down the inside of the vehicle? If they were his and he had not been wearing them the entire time, why? That didn't make much sense. Why bring a pair of gloves that could eliminate any possibility of fingerprints

and then not wear them, which would force him to spend time and effort wiping down the inside of the car when he could be escaping? There were no answers. But after the killer was done with his chores in the front seat, he pushed Paul back up into a sitting position behind the steering wheel, probably to make it look like nothing had happened. The killer stepped out of the car,

closed the passenger side door, and wiped down some of the outside of the vehicle. He must have noticed that Paul had slumped over again because he walked around to the driver's side, repositioned Paul behind the steering wheel once again, and closed the door. He wiped down the outside of the driver's side of the car, and at that point, he decided he was done. The killer strolled up Cherry Street for one block until he hit Jackson Street.

He walked across the intersection of Cherry and Jackson and turned right on Jackson. He continued walking east on Jackson Street at a casual pace, probably believing he had not been seen. But behind him, back on the corner of Washington and Cherry, three feet. kids had seen about 99% of the killer's actions. Across the street from Paul Stein's cab, three kids had been looking out the window of their third floor residence when they saw something strange happening at the car. They hadn't seen or heard the gunshot and didn't know that Paul Stein was dying or already dead. But they saw a man struggling to move Paul's body and sifting through his pockets. They watched the killer open and close the two front doors,

wiped down the inside and the outside of the car, and then casually walk up Cherry Street as if nothing had happened. One of the three, probably the oldest, called the police. Over the course of the next few minutes, the killer proved once again that he was one of the luckiest criminals alive. There's no recording or transcript of the call, so no one knows exactly what was said. But the result was one of the most consequential miscommunications

in the history of American crime. The first radio call about the incident notified patrol units that a cab driver was being robbed and possibly assaulted on the corner of Washington and Cherry. Units should be on the lookout for an NMA. That was police code for Negro male adult.

That simple mix-up about the skin color of the suspect may have allowed the killer to walk right past a police car and slip away. My relentless sleep problems have always come from an overactive mind. I lay in bed at night with my mind racing from one thing to another, and then, of course, I have a brainstorm about something new. That lights the fire, and then I'm in real trouble. To calm my mind, the only things that have ever worked with any consistency are sleep gummies.

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Go to Mood.com and use the code infamous to get 20% off your first order. your first order, and they have a 100-day satisfaction guarantee. Mood.com promo code infamous. Officers Armand Pellissetti and Frank Peta were the closest to the crime scene. They arrived shortly after the radio call and parked their car in the intersection of Washington and Cherry. They hustled toward Paul Stein's cab and saw two or three kids approaching the vehicle. The kids were the ones who had called it in, and Pellissetti intercepted them before they reached the car. He herded them back to their home and returned to Paul Stein's taxi. Paul Stein was slumped over again, and now his body was draped across the passenger side of the

bench seat. Blood covered the inside of the car, and Stein was clearly dead. Pellicetti went back to the kids and asked them to repeat the information about the suspect. When they did, Pellicetti realized the mistake in the original radio broadcast. He ran to his car and corrected the initial report. Units should be on the lookout for a white suspect, not a black suspect. The kid said the man had walked up Cherry Street toward Jackson Street, so Pellissetti followed the man's route. As he moved up Cherry Street, he saw no one. At the corner of Jackson and Cherry, Pellissetti turned right on Jackson. He continued for another block until he reached the intersection of Jackson and Maple. On Maple Street, he spotted an older

skinny man who was walking his dog, but the man was clearly not the suspect. The rest of the neighborhood was dark. The suspect could have made any number of turns and gone in any number of directions. There was no use in wandering aimlessly around the neighborhood when there was a crime scene to secure. So Pellissetti returned to Paul Stein's taxi. With multiple people doing multiple things at once, the timeline is hard to follow. But more than likely, it was no more than a minute or two later when another pair of officers saw the man whom most people believe was the Zodiac killer. San Francisco police officer Donald Fouk and rookie officer Eric Zelms were on patrol six blocks from the murder when they heard the first radio call. They turned on to Jackson Street

and headed in the direction of the crime scene. As they approached the corner of Jackson and Maple, where Officer Pellissetti had ended his pursuit, they saw a man walking on the sidewalk now, to Jackson Street and moving away from the crime scene. Officer Falk got a good look at the man and mentally cataloged the man's appearance. But the man was white, and the officers believed they were searching for a black man. The officers rolled past the man and continued another block until they reached Cherry Street. They turned left and headed toward the intersection of Washington and Cherry where the murder had happened. They quickly found Officer Pellissetti, who told him.

him he was looking for a white male suspect who might still be on foot within a few blocks of the crime scene. A tense discussion followed, as Fouk naturally said he thought they were looking for a black suspect. Pellissetti explained the mix-up, and Fouk uttered a curse. He turned the car and drove back to the intersection of Jackson and Maple, but the suspect had disappeared. Based on witness statements, the suspect had likely walked one more block on Jackson Street after he passed Fouke's patrol car and then turned left on Spruce Street. He headed one block north and entered the Presidio of San Francisco. Presidio is a Spanish word for fort as in a military base.

The presidio of San Francisco was built in 1776 by the Spanish government to protect the entrance of San Francisco Bay. It occupies 1,500 acres of land on the northern tip of the peninsula that is home to the city of San Francisco, and it anchors one end of the Golden Gate Bridge. The base was an American installation for 150 years, from 1846 to 1994, when it was decommissioned and turned into a national park. In 1969, it was still an active-duty base, and it was a great place for a sustenician. to hide. Parts of it were heavily wooded or covered with dense brush.

San Francisco Police initiated a full-scale manhunt in the neighborhood around the Presidio and in the Presidio itself. The fire department used one of its ladder trucks to raise a spotlight up into the air to illuminate the heavily wooded areas. All seven San Francisco police units that use search dogs rushed to the area. Police officers and military personnel personnel scoured the grounds until the early morning hours. But they found nothing. The suspect was gone. Officer Fouk remains convinced that the man he saw that night was the man who killed Paul

Stein and therefore was the Zodiac killer. But Officer Pellissetti isn't so sure. Falk was a good officer and he noticed and remembered so many details of the suspect's appearance that Pellissetti had a hard time believing Fouk would not have noticed, blood on the man's clothing. Based on the amount of blood in Paul Stein's taxi, Pellissetti believed the killer had to have gotten some of it on his clothing. There could be any number of explanations for the missing detail, and most people believe Officer Fowkes saw the Zodiac killer that night. And while the manhunt raced to life, detectives Bill Armstrong and Dave Toskey arrived at the crime scene.

No two detectives would become more closely linked to the Zodiac case than Armstrong and Toskey. Though at the time, of course, no one knew the murder of Paul Stein was connected to the Zodiac killer. At that moment, the crime was a random murder of a cab driver. The detectives found the black gloves that had presumably belonged to the killer. They found the 9mm shell casing of the bullet that killed Paul Stein. And they discovered that Stein's wallet, his car key, and a large chunk of his shirt were missing. The missing piece of the shirt was strange,

but everything else pointed to a robbery that ended very badly. That assumption lasted exactly two days, until the killer wrote a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle, which included an unimpeachable piece of evidence. On Sunday, October 12, 1969, the day after Paul Stein was killed, Charles Manson was arrested at Barker Ranch on the edge of Death Valley in Southern California. The next day, Monday, October 13, 1969,

the San Francisco police released a composite sketch to the media of the suspect in the murder of Paul Stein. The drawing was based on witness statements, and it showed a white male, 25 to 30 years old, with a crew-cut hairstyle and heavy-rimmed eyeglasses. The written description said the man was 5 feet 8 to 5 feet 9 inches tall and weighed about 150 pounds. It would be updated a few days later to increase the suspect's age and weight, but the facial characteristics remained. While people from San Francisco read about the fugitive, the killer dropped a letter into a public mailbox. The letter arrived at the offices of the San Francisco Chronicle the next day.

It read, This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington Street and Maple Street last night. To prove this, here is a bloodstained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay area. The SF police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcycles, seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly, waiting for me to come out of cover.

School children make nice targets. I think I shall wipe out a bus some morning. Just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kitties as they come bouncing out. He signed the letter with the now familiar Zodiac symbol. And as he stated in the letter, he included proof in the envelope, a blood-stained piece of Paul Stein's shirt. The Chronicle notified SFPD and delivered the piece of Stein's shirt. The Chronicle needed to report on the letter,

but everyone thought they should leave out the part about the threat to school children. There were no specifics in the threat, and if they printed it now, they would unleash citywide panic. In addition, the police needed time to strategize. It was bad enough when they thought they were dealing with a rancher. random killer who could fit the description of thousands of men in one of the biggest cities in the country. Now, it looked like they were dealing with the same mysterious and elusive killer who had murdered five people in the past year and badly injured two others. Ultimately, the police

didn't debate for very long. Despite the lack of specifics in the threat, they couldn't conceal it from the public. One day after the Chronicle printed its article about the letter, which did not contained the threat to school kids, the SFPD coordinated with the state and local government to release the information. Then, state, county, and local law enforcement agencies mobilized an unprecedented effort to protect the kids. In Napa County alone, there were 64 school buses that carried 10,000 kids to and from school every day. The buses traveled a combined distance of 4,000 miles every day, and they had to be protected every day for an unknown length of time.

Each bus now featured a volunteer who sat up front by the driver and acted as a lookout for any sign of danger. Law enforcement agencies dedicated more than 70 units to provide armed escorts for the buses. Small airplanes flew overhead to act as spotters. And that was just for Napa County. The scope and scale of the possible danger to the entire San Francisco region was beyond anything anyone had ever encountered. A couple days into the protective operation, lawmen held a summit in San Francisco to get everyone on the same page.

27 detectives from seven departments met to discuss the situation. Detectives from each department where the killer had struck explained their cases and the current status of their investigations. The chief of detectives in San Francisco said the summit was beneficial, and it was likely the first of its kind in American history, a multi-agency task force to discuss how to stop a serial killer. But whatever course of action they agreed on, it would have changed the next day. A man who claimed to be the killer called the Oakland, California Police Department, and set in motion the most bizarre episode of the Zodiac story. In the early morning hours of Wednesday, October 22nd, a man called the Oakland PD switchboard and claimed to be the Zodiac killer. He told the operator he wanted the Oakland police to arrange for prominent attorney F. Lee Bailey

to appear on a local TV show called AM San Francisco. When the appearance was set, the man on the phone would call into the TV show and discuss the possibility of a surrender. If Bailey wasn't available, the caller would settle for his second choice, a well-known San Francisco defense lawyer named Melvin Belli. The show was a live broadcast that started at 6.30 a.m., so police and TV producers had to scramble to make one of the options happen in just a few hours. Bailey, who would defend Patty Hurst a few years in the future, and then O.J. Simpson 20 years

after that, lived on the East Coast, so it was a little bit of the East Coast. would be impossible for him to make it to the studio in San Francisco in time for the show. Melvin Belli, who was right there in town and who loved attention and publicity, happily stepped in. San Francisco and Oakland Police Departments worked together to arrange the appearance. And at 6.30 a.m., Melvin Belli was sitting next to the host, Jim Dunbar, when the show started. The show was a two-hour broadcast, and Dunbar instructed viewers not to be able to be able to

to call in as they normally would so he could leave the phone lines open for the killer. Dunbar and Bell Eye spent 50 minutes discussing the situation on air while they waited for the killer to call. Then during a commercial break, the mystery man called the show. The audience saw the very end of the brief discussion as the show came back from commercial, and then the caller hung up. A few minutes later, he called back. What followed was a series of 15 phone calls during which Dunbar and Belli did their best to extract information from the caller. In the rambling, disjointed conversation, the caller wanted to be called Sam. He said he suffered from headaches, and the headaches drove him to kill.

Dunbar and Belli repeatedly tried to get Sam to verify that he was the person who had called a police department the previous night and set this whole thing in motion, but Sam wouldn't do it. The broadcast ended with no tangible. result. But off air, the caller agreed to meet Melvin Belli at a local thrift shop at 10.30 a.m. that morning, two hours after the show finished. Belli showed up, but the caller did not, and the newspapers began referring to the caller as Sam the Sham. San Francisco police gathered everyone who had previously heard the killer's voice,

including Vallejo Police Dispatcher Nancy Slover, Napa police officer David Slate. and Lake Beriasa victim Brian Hartnell. They all agreed. The man who called the TV show was not the man they spoke to. The TV show caller was much younger and less confident than Zodiac, and the caller did not speak with the same unique rhythm and cadence as the Zodiac. Four months later, in February 1970, the police would learn that the caller was a patient at a Napa mental hospital.

The calls weren't necessarily a hoax. they were just the byproducts of a person who was struggling with mental health issues. But the real Zodiac was watching and listening. Two weeks after the fiasco with the TV show, he sent two new communications to the San Francisco Chronicle. On November 8, 1969, the Zodiac sent a greeting card, the first of many, and a new cipher to the San Francisco Chronicle. The card, known as the dripping pen card,

because of the image of a fountain pen on the front, red on the inside. This is the Zodiac speaking. I thought you would need a good laugh before you hear the bad news. You won't get the news for a while yet. P.S. could you print this cipher on your front page? I get awfully lonely when I am ignored. So lonely, I could do my thing. The word thing was printed in darker letters, was underlined six times.

and had six exclamation points after it. The card was signed with the Zodiac symbol, and it ended with a message that investigators determined to be a scorecard. It had abbreviations for the months of December, July, August, September, and October, and then equals the number seven. The author seemed to be saying he had committed a total of seven murders during those months. David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen were killed. in December. Darlene Farren was killed in July. Cecilia Shepard was killed in September,

and Paul Stein was killed in October. That left August as the unknown quantity. In August 1969, two young girls were brutally stabbed to death in San Jose, about an hour south of San Francisco. The most obvious guess was that the Zodiac was claiming credit for the murders of the two girls, Deborah Furlong and Kathy Snoozy. But a year and a half later, their killer, Carl Werner, was caught and convicted. In the moment, while investigators tried to understand the scorecard, they also needed to break the new cipher. And then, hot on the heels of the dripping pin card and the cipher, the Zodiac sent his longest letter with yet another threat. The cipher is known as the 340 cipher, because it has 340 characters.

It was printed in the San Francisco Chronicle, like the 408 cipher, but the code for the 340 cipher was far more complex than the 408 cipher. It took 50 years to crack, and it was finally solved by a team of three guys in 2020. Even if it had been decrypted in 1969 or 1970, it wouldn't have given the police any clues. It made a quick reference to the TV appearance of Melvin Bell-Eye, but other than that, it was full of more ravings about stockpiling slaves for the afterlife. One day after the Zodiac mailed the card and the cipher, he sent a seven-page letter to the San Francisco Chronicle. It was full of all the hallmarks of a Zodiac letter, bad spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.

It taunted the police with multiple references to the investigation of Paul Stein's murder and the manhunt on the night of the shooting. It laughed at them for taking seriously the threat to shoot kids as they walked off a bus. It had been three weeks since his last letter with the insinuation to kill school kids, and now he appeared to say he had been kidding. At the same time, half of the current letter was devoted to explaining, in a fair amount of detail, that he had built a bomb and might use it to blow up a bus. He seemed to suggest that he would plant the bomb on the side of a road, and it would explode as a bus passed by.

Other than that, which was mostly inferred from a crude drawing he included in the letter, there were no specifics about the threat. And he went further with his gamesmanship by saying that the bomb might already be planted, or it might be sitting in his basement. The police had no way of knowing, and they didn't have the manpower to search every inch of every roadside in a region that encompassed hundreds of square miles. On top of that, he said his future killings would not be obvious acts of the now well-known

Zodiac killer. They would look like robberies or spontaneous crimes of passion or accidents. In essence, he set himself up to be a criminal mastermind who was both everywhere and nowhere. Any murder in the San Francisco region and maybe beyond could now be the work of the Zodiac. And to prove his authenticity, he included a piece of Paul Stein's bloody shirt. It had only been a month since Paul Stein's murder, and the Zodiac had brought total chaos to the San Francisco Bay Area. And he wasn't done.

Right before Christmas, 1969, the killer sent a letter directly to Melvin Belli. The letter marked a psychological turn for the killer, or it was just another trick. As always, there was no way to separate. truth from fantasy with the zodiac. In the letter, the killer now claimed that a thing inside him was making him kill. He made it sound like he was trying valiantly to control this thing inside him, but it was becoming difficult. If he couldn't control the inner demon, he would kill his ninth and 10th victims. That detail was interesting. In the bus bomb letter five weeks earlier,

the Zodiac explicitly said he had killed seven people. Now he was talking about killing numbers nine and ten. So what happened to number eight? There was no explanation. He repeatedly begged Melvin Belli for help and included one more detail of note. He admitted he had not yet planted the bomb. He said it required a lot of work to set up.

But if he didn't receive help and couldn't control himself, he would go through with it. As the world was on the doorstep of the new year of 1970, no one knew what to believe. The Zodiac had made lots of threats, but had followed through on none of them. Yet at the same time, he had struck at random with the murder of Paul Stein. The killer had made lots of claims of being clever, but all of his stories of outsmarting the police would have been easy to make up after the fact. There was simply no way to know what was true and what wasn't.

But when the new year started with the murder of another San Francisco cab driver, and then the detonation of a bomb at a San Francisco police station, everyone had the same thought. It was the Zodiac. Next time on Infamous America, in 1970, the Zodiac becomes a prolific pen pal for the city of San Francisco. He writes letters and cards and makes more claims, but his list of verified activities plummets. The final actions, the miscellaneous pieces, and the top suspects are next week on the conclusion of the story of the Zodiac Killer here on Infamous America.

Members of our Black Barrel Plus program don't have to wait week to week for new episodes. They receive the entire season to binge all at once with no commercials, and they also receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up now through the link in the show notes or on our website, blackbarrelmedia.com. Memberships are just $5 per month. This series was researched by Julia Brickland, original music by Rob Valier. I'm your writer, host, and producer, Chris Wimmer. Find us at our website, blackbarrelmedia.com,

or on our social media channels. We're Black Barrel Media on Facebook and Instagram and B-Barrell Media on Twitter, and you can stream all our episodes on YouTube. Just search for Infamous America podcast. Thanks for listening.