Inquiry with Kelly Chase - [Cosmosis] Ep 9: Daniel Elizondo on Narrative Control, The Secret Onion, and Vallée's Forbidden Science

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

In this episode, researcher and Loose Threads co-author Daniel Elizondo joins us for a far-reaching conversation about UFO secrecy, the architecture of disinformation, and the psychological terrain of the phenomenon itself. We dig into Jacques Vallée’s “Secret Onion”—a layered model of compartmentalization that explains how information is controlled and obscured within intelligence structures—and explore how narrative control operates both externally through infotainment and internally through belief, seduction, and epistemic vulnerability. Daniel breaks down the long history of rug pulls, the weaponization of mystery, and what it means to resist the gravitational pull of being “the one” to break the story. We also talk Forbidden Science, Skywatcher, and the invisible handshake between researchers and the phenomenon they seek to understand. If you’ve ever wondered who controls the narrative—or if you’re part of it—this episode is for you.📚 Resources and References Loose Threads by Daniel Elizondo and the Hermetic Penetrator Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles by Jacques Vallée UFOs: Past, Present, and Future by Robert Emenegger Watch Cosmosis: UFOs & A New Reality:https://www.cosmosis.media/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cosmosismediaSubscribe to Cosmosis:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Cosmosis.PodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7KnyktIs059pbVdccD020D?si=f3835f36a8cb479dApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cosmosis-formerly-the-ufo-rabbit-hole/id1595590107 Follow CosmosisX: https://x.com/cosmosis_mediaFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/12EEyNVPucu/?mibextid=wwXIfrInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/cosmosis.mediaListen to the Cosmosis Soundtrack by Michael Rubino:Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/5Xvs2NAHNbKjfW7hWkjqey?si=pJPPgIPsRZGkZjJh19UULQApple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/album/cosmosis-ufos-a-new-reality-season-one-original-soundtrack/1788465117Amazon: https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0DS5WY5CB?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_zY05XPzhLhuow5dAgK3g2W9yC TIMESTAMPS02:24 Sky Watcher and UFO Community Skepticism08:48 Historical Precedents in UFO Disclosure10:30 The Holloman Air Force Base Incident14:35 Challenges in UFO Disclosure and Infotainment21:45 Personal Experiences and Intelligence Community Interactions30:58 Navigating the Insider's Club and Forbidden Science33:08 The Repeated Revelations of Jacques Vallee35:25 The Evolution of the Invisible College39:57 The Secret Onion: Layers of Secrecy49:46 The Phenomenon and Human Curiosity56:57 The Control Mechanism: Micro and Macro Perspectives01:01:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Welcome back to Cosmosis. I'm Jay Christopher King, along with my brilliant co-host Kelly Chase. If you're new to the show, Cosmosis is a podcast that grew out of our docu-series, Cosmosis, UFOs, and a new reality. We spent more than a year working on that series. This podcast is a way of continuing that exploration. It's a space for deeper conversations about contact, consciousness, and the hidden architectures that shape our reality.

You don't need to have seen the series to follow along here, but if you're curious, you can find Cosmosis, UFOs in a new reality streaming on Prime Video, Apple TV, Vimeo, YouTube, and more. All the links are at cosmosis.media. And if you'd like to support the show and be part of this unfolding conversation, you can join us on Patreon at patreon.com slash Cosmosis Media. Patrons get early access to ad-free episodes, behind-the-scenes content, and live Zoom calls with us and some of our guests.

Today, we're talking with researcher and writer Daniel Elizondo, co-author of Loose Threats, a contributor to the Cosmosis docuseries, and one of the sharpest minds working at the intersection of UFO secrecy, intelligence structures, and the deeper philosophical stakes of this topic. We get into a lot, infotainment and narrative control, Jacques Valet's forbidden science journals, and The Secret Onion, a layered model of compartmentalization that explains a lot about how this topic has been managed over the years.

We also talk about what it means to stay grounded in this work, about resisting the urge to chase the golden ticket and learning to navigate the weird, the subtle, and the seductive without losing yourself in the process. We start by picking up a third, read from last week's episode. So let's get into it. Here's our conversation with Daniel Alessando. So what do you think about what's going on with Skywatcher? Yeah, it's a very interesting situation that they've got going there where you do have people that obviously have a lot of

experience in a background and even hands-on experience in some of these retrieval or recovery operations that are ostensibly doing this work now together in the the open sector, and I applaud that. I think that it's really wonderful to have people that are doing this. They're documenting their work. They are sharing it. It's very produced. But, you know, there's nothing wrong with production per se. I think that there is something to be said about transparency, that there is a level of transparency there because you do have people, like I said, who are sharing some of this information. At the same time, as you've alluded to and a lot of people have alluded to, We don't know really where the money is coming from, which in some ways is refreshing,

because often there are these efforts that come about where people are sort of coming hat and hand. They're trying to sell you something. Right now, we're not seeing that yet. And I think that's great. At the same time, it does just with the UFO community, if you're not skeptical about movements like this, and you're not skeptical about movements that involve members of the intelligence community, then you just haven't been paying attention.

That's not to say that there's anything inherently wrong with any. of the people that are pursuing it, but they, I would assume, know this and they've prepared for this and they understand if they've been following the topic at all, that there's good reasons to be skeptical. And so I think we'll see some skepticism there. At the same time, I do think there is a piece of it that feels not necessary, I guess, in a sense, because we do have people who have essentially come out and validated Stephen Greer's CE5. He's not, he didn't necessarily well, you could say you invented C5, but there have been people who have been able to bring in craft

and things like this for a very long time. But they're validating this idea that you can go out and you can have these experiences that you can sort of vector in these craft. And so if anybody can do it, and we know that anybody can do it, right? What's the necessity for having a, you know, a team out in fatigues, you know, in jeeps with helicopters? Like I think there's, the initiative is interacting with the phenomenon

on on one hand and then technology transfer on the other hand. And I think that's really where kind of the split comes with a lot of this. Is to what extent am I in support of contemplative practices for technology transfer, right? Like I'm only going to meditate if I get an egg out of it. I'm not sure that that's necessarily a healthy approach, but it may be, you know, the approach for people who are involved in the financial sector and people who are involved in high technology and research and development initiatives like that. This is just great. This is second nature.

I mean, after all, we do have people that have talked about all kinds of different contact protocols and things that they use in order to get technical information or to get even, let's say, inspiration for how to develop certain things, how to, you know, I mean, from Nikola Tesla. There are lots of people who have had these kinds of experiences or attribute some of their success to these experiences. So there's nothing about it that's necessarily unprecedented. And that's not a knock. That's a, you know, there's some basic science, some basic human experience that's sort of banked up over time that you can sort of see coming here and coalescing together with this group. You know, I would caution anybody from jumping head first into it. But to be honest, I actually been a little bit encouraged with a lot of the community has not, you know, they're not attacking

them, but they are maybe kind of just playing wait and see. And I think that's really a healthy place to be. You know, obviously, that's just, you know, one part of the community. There are some people going to jump onto the bandwagon no matter what, but we all learn as we go, right? Hopefully, we get the football, we get the rug pulled out from us enough times, and eventually we kind of learn to watch where we're standing. At least they're adhering to the tried and true euphology trope of dudes standing in a semicircle in the desert because that seems to be

for all the great achievements. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's the sacred geometry. Yeah. I love that. Absolutely. Yeah, the more that it looks like reality shows of 15 years ago, the better in terms of

making us feel a little bit safe with all this woo and all this. Yeah. Yeah, you need to have that infotainment. And I think it's important to know that that infotainment piece of it. I mean, you could go back to, you know, in the 70s with Bob Eminegger, right, where they're telling him, well, we've got the videos of, you know, we're finally going to give you this, this video where you're going to see a crap coming down at Holman, right? You're going to see it. And, you know, they got, you know, the first one of those,

they got Jacques Valet and Heinick involved. And of course, it didn't materialize. And then the next time they came back, Jacques and Heinek were like, no, we don't want anything to do with this no thanks and other people kept running with it. But I mean, it even goes back. I think it was even, I was looking the other day and there were allusions to Chris Mellon maybe being involved in some kind of an infotainment movement in around like 2005. I think that's when that was in a forbidden science volume five where Jacques is kind of mentioning that. So, you know, it's always been there. And there's always been people who have hypothesized that this is a, you know, some sort of they, some big group is orchestrating this through infotainment.

And there could be something to that. But I wonder if it's not just sort of like a safe entry point, even for people who are producing these to say, hey, well, it's just infotainment, right? We're just having a good time. You know, if it gets a little bit too dice, you say, well, it was for, it was for history channel or it was for dot, dot, dot, right? It was for the podcast.

And so we don't have to take it as seriously as we might, if I'm sitting behind nice wooden desk in Congress or something like that, right? Like this is a different kind of way to push this information out that is a safe space. That's a really, really good impression point, Daniel. I mean, one of the things in there that I think is important is the historical precedent for this push pole of military industrial complex management of the disclosure issue. And there being this more recent effort that you could see exemplified through places like TTSA and unidentified and other sources like that or even through mainstream media, depending on how broadly we address the term, right? Where we have these quasi-official sources or official sources, usually acting in a retired degree or having one level of plausible deniability, they just left, they just retired. fired. They, you know, this, that or the other thing just happened. And then they can say something.

And then there's kind of the historical president. And you're talking about what you were just mentioning, you're, you were alluding to a famous case from history, which was, uh, UFO's past present and future, uh, back in, I think it was 1974 or so, uh, that this guy Robert Emenegger was working on. And there was this classic rugpole. And this has happened over and over and over again before the current era, right? Where you're either kind of out or in, or people are trying to kind of manage the information that's coming through you through documentary work, right?

So would it be possible briefly for you to talk to us about what was UFO's past present and future? Or can you just talk that story out in a little bit more detail, that whole Holloman landing, if you wouldn't mind? So, yeah. So UFO's past, present and future is a documentary that was put together really by someone named Bob Eminegger. He'd been approached by members of A. Fosi, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and a few other officials to basically sort of dangle this carrot out here. We've got some information for you.

We're going to give you help with files. We're going to give you access to documents. We're going to get view access even to video footage and photos as well so that you can really create this very convincing and very authoritative documentary about UFOs. And then it'll kind of have this sort of official feel to it. And so, of course, he goes down the down the line with that. He gets other people involved with it.

Names you might have known like Jacques Valet, Dr. J. Allen Heineck. There are people like that that got pulled into this, especially the first round of it, if you will. and they conduct their interviews and Jacques kind of talks about in forbidden science in some of his diaries. He discusses how the producers are really trying to get them to

go out on a limb, right? To say things that maybe they wouldn't otherwise say, especially if you know if you're familiar with Heineck and Valet, they don't really, they're not arched skeptics by any means, but they are conservative, especially when they're in an interview format.

And so these producers are really trying to get them to take a leap that they're not comfortable with. And it seems like they both do a pretty good job of resisting that, reading the tea leaves there and understanding what might be happening. And there's one particular piece of footage, which is purported to be a UFO landing at Holloman Air Force base, this thing that is going to validate rumors that have gone back from the 50s and 60s about a UFO landing at Holland Air Force Base. And there are different dates that are thrown out. I think there's potentially one that was in the late 50s that they talk about. And then there's also one from 1964. And I believe this is the year of the landing that they're actually

discussing that they were saying, hey, we're going to give you this footage. And supposedly there are these beings that get out and they're wearing, they've got like ping pong pole shaped eyes. And they're wearing sort of Egyptian garb and they look vaguely, you know, vaguely Egyptian in a way. And they sort of are supposed to come out. And in some stories, it's they're just talking to some Air Force officials or intelligence officers and other stories and other landings. You know, they're talking to Eisenhower. There's even some lore that there were agreements made between Eisenhower and the non-human

intelligences there as a result of some of those landings. and the conversations that came out of that where I think the deal is we give them or we allow them to carry out their deduction activities while they are permitted to or they're going to help us with technology transfer, right? So it's always this kind of quid pro. I don't know how we hold them to that, right? Like what court of law you take them to if they violate that agreement, but that's there. And I will say even, you know, David Grush, who I tend to hold in very high regard. as a very honest actor, has mentioned that as something that he's interested as well, because apparently he's heard, he's heard some of that stuff too.

So they dangle this idea that they've got this footage, right? And they're going to give him this footage. And finally, this is going to be in UFO's past, present, and future. Of course, that never materializes. And so the rug gets pulled out. They do still make a really great documentary. And it's really well regarded. but it doesn't have that piece of footage.

So it's just a classic thing that you can go watch now on Amazon Prime or I think is probably even out on YouTube, but it's not what we were looking for. And we tend to get this over and over and over every five to 10 years. And really every UFO documentary now, like that's just kind of part of the marketing, right? Like you're going to say,

this is the one. This is the documentary that's going to tell you all the secrets you've been wanting to know. It's going to tell you everything and nothing will ever be, the same after you watch this documentary. And it seems to be as annoying as it can be as it is sometimes. That's just the way everything is now, right? Every new drop, every new story that's coming out, oh, this is going to be the news story. Well, every interview that comes out, this is going to be

the interview. Every documentary that comes out, this is the one. This is a documentary that's going to take us from, you know, the conversations at 50 percent. We're going to 110 percent now with this one. And, you know, it just never happens that way. And I don't think that it's, honestly, I don't think it's reasonable to believe that there really is much that could happen that way, aside from the president of the United States, standing up and telling people, this is what's happening. And here's documents we're going to give you. And here's photos that we verified and footage that we verified. Now we're going to have my science advisor and all these people are going to come up, unless you have the executive of the United States doing that.

kind of an announcement, I don't think we're going to get there. And in some instances, that sounds almost ridiculous, like that would never happen. And then, of course, you even have the political piece where even if that did happen, how many people are going to say, well, you can't believe Trump or you can't believe Biden or you can't believe whoever it is, right? It doesn't matter who the person is. There will be a large sector of the planet that will say, well, I don't believe what that person says. And so it's just difficult, right? It's difficult to make everybody have a realization at the same time. Stuff doesn't work like that.

Look at any other fact that you would think this is ground truth fact, even ordinary things. And to make everybody understand all that or even a really large chunk of society understand that all at the same time is really difficult to do. So I applaud all of the efforts of infotainment and documentaries and investigation. And I think that we should keep going forward with that. We just need to remember that there is a history to this, and it doesn't always play out the way that we hope that it does.

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Yeah, you know, Daniel, that's something I appreciate about you so much, is I think way too much in this field. We have forgotten our history and you're somebody who I feel like has forgotten more history than those people know. Like you know so much and I appreciate that about you so much. And, you know, even with that story, I think that people don't realize that all of this has been going on for such a long time. And I'm not going to call out any names on the podcast, but I think that we can all kind of look back at the last five to 10 years and think about various journalists, investigators, researchers in the field who seem to have been like set up to think that they had the next, like, they were the guy. Like, you're going to be the guy.

And, you know, we're going to, or the gal, but let's face it, it's mostly guys. But you're going to be the guy. And, you know, you're going to get to do disclosure TM. And then to have that rug pulled at the last second and what it kind of does to people, what it does to their credibility. what it does to their mental health, what it does to their kind of just like sense of overall stability. And it seems like people, people forget that and that like not enough people ask themselves,

is this too good to be true? Because it seems like oftentimes it actually is, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great observation. And, you know, it's something, I think it's especially difficult when you have people who are on, that sort of personal basis with you, right? They're, they're messaging you. They're important people. They're in a position to know. And now you're their best friend. And that can be,

I think, very destabilizing. And I can't blame anybody for believing that they're, or not even believing, because I think a lot of people have made big contributions, right? Like, it's not a, it's not a one or a zero situation. I think sometimes it gets very easy for us to get into disclosure or not disclosure when we don't even agree about what we're disclosing in the first place. So, you know, I do think that there are a lot of people where, yeah, maybe you're not the guy or the girl, you know, but you are going to be, you're going to make, you have made some contributions and sort of figuring out what do you do when you, when that rugpole happens? What do you do when you figure out when sort of you start to see the cracks?

Are you going to roll up your mat and go home? or are you going to continue to sort of figure out how can I influence things in a way that's good, how can I keep pushing the ball down the field? I think that's really the decision that faces a lot of people, a lot of people. And you two know, right? If you two know, if you know people and you talk to people, that, you know, it can on the outside looking in,

sometimes it looks like it's just one big happy family, all in the desert holding hands, right, wearing their fatigues. but it's not like that all the time, right? Like it's, it's, it is ugly behind the scenes. There's a lot of interpersonal things that go on. I could be skeptical about it and cynical about it, but sometimes it is encouraging to see them say, you know what, we're all on the team.

You know, whatever the team is, whatever it is we're doing, we're going to go ahead and we're going to try and push the ball forward. And I think that that's, you know, honestly, that's something that I can say, even with the present day movement, that's encouraging. You know, that's something that we can take cues on and say, hey, let's not sell ourselves and sell our integrity, but at the same time,

if we can engage with this in a way that feels authentic and it's something that we can sleep well at night with, then we should. And I think that we don't always have to burn our bridges. And because, boy, in the intelligence community, I was about saying the UFO community, but let's just say, in the intelligence community, it's really easy to burn your bridges.

And I do think that there are a lot of things that that's what they want you to do, right? Like that's the goal is you go and you do this thing and then we burn you and you flame out. And now we've made a clean break and now we can go and go to the next golden boy or golden girl, right? Who's going to be running with the ball now? You don't have to worry about you anymore.

Yeah. And a shout out to Coral Lorenzen and Linda Moulton Howe and all of the women in the field that got a classic rugpole back in the day because we see you too, right? Oh, yeah. They invented the Rugpole. Yes, yes.

They were very much in the thick of things. 100%. You know, along those lines, Daniel, we'll see if we cut this or not. We were just down at archives, right? We were down there together. We had a great time. We were seeing all the talks.

We were getting in the mix, talking to people, some people that we've known forever, old friends. It was wonderful to see you meeting people like Mike Cleland and Jim Madden and other folks that I know that you appreciate and you being able to have those conversations.

That's super fun. I also saw you getting approached by certain intelligence analysts and them telling you that they're giant fans of your work and stuff like that. And like, you know, that must feel strange, right? I mean, A, like, how does that feel seeing that play out in real time? I mean, I know how it makes me feel, but I'm curious with you. And along those lines, we've been. talking about kind of like what happens in the in the kind of public facing discourse in terms of

like what we're disinformed about or what the narrative is in kind of a public facing way online or on TV or wherever but a lot of the more independent researchers that start to have a little bit of a reputation not naming names or anything but they start getting fed stuff behind the scenes back channels and things like that. You know, with the research that you've done with loose threads, which was absolutely incredible and the current research you're doing, all these things. Have you ever felt like you're being fed something, like a breadcrumb trail meant to distract rather than reveal something to you? You know, believe it or not, well, I guess I'll start at the top there. When we're at the archives, yes, there were people who you meet and you can

definitely tell there are people who watch Cosmosis or here are people who happen to lose threads. And it had been several years since I've been to a UFO event. So, and last time I hadn't really published anything. I hadn't really done anything, you know, that people would recognize me or know me for. So that was, it was definitely an interesting experience to see the people knew me. That was, that was interesting. And it was, it was, it was awkward in a way. It was also a little isolating. I talked about that with you, Kelly,

a little bit about how it can be very awkward to have almost like this one way or asymmetric conversation. But then there are these other people who kind of come up out of the blue and yes, come to find out some of those people do have, you know, ties to the intelligence community, you know, present, not, you know, chamo ties necessarily. And that's weird.

and it's a little creepy. At the same time, it doesn't really surprise me at all. I remember one of the things that did surprise me is after we published loose threads, there was a journalist who messaged me and not like a journalist that's like super active now, but was active back then. And he said, hey, really, you know, I appreciate your work and this is, you know, this is really helpful.

And just so you know, I printed out the whole thing. and I gave it to my contact at the CIA. And, you know, and then I also found out that they're like, so they're going to put it on there. I don't know if it's Sipternet or whatever the intelligence community, sort of like intranet is, they're going to put it there and share it. And so there's, you know, there are some people who will follow me from that.

And, and that's, but that's obviously not your everyday kind of exposure, not the kind of PR that I was necessarily looking for. like Pentagon PR, you know, that that comes with the territory. As far as breadcrumbs go, I actually was spared that for the most part. I did have right after loose threads came out, there were a couple of approaches of people asking me to join certain things. Oh, you know, will you meet and talk with us? You won't believe who's here.

You know, and they're big fans, they want to talk with you. I was very burned out and very, really just more burned out than anything. And so I said no to a lot of things. Like I didn't even think about it twice. And it's the same thing. I've had lots of little things like that. But I think in saying no, then not just saying, yeah, sure, yeah, sure.

Put me in there. Whatever. Like it does sort of shield you off a little bit from some of that. I also think that we did this in the wrong order. Normally you get involved and you sort of meet people a little bit and you get to know them and then you start getting a little bit of information and then you start publishing things. And so what you publish is, is very, you know, in keeping with the mainstream dialogue and the mainstream narrative and away from the conversations that maybe people don't want to have,

we did it the opposite way, right? And when I say we, I'm talking about myself and my co-author goes by the Hermetic Penetrator on X. We basically dove in right before we really were, you know, had talked to. anybody. We kind of just went crazy and had a collective manic season and we let it lead us down some dark paths and we published all of it. And, you know, it's not as thorough as maybe I'd like it to be. Hopefully one day I'll be able to remedy that when I have enough time. But, you know, it's something that that I think we really did kind of put ourselves on a no no list if

there is such a thing, where you do have people who will allude to it, but they will talk about it. You'll have people who will cite it without citing it, right? Like, they'll talk about things that are very specific that, right? We were talking about very, like, they'll talk about that, but they don't, they won't actually say it. And, you know, that's once or twice that happens. You think, well, it's probably just, why would anybody know about it? Eventually, it kind of becomes a pattern where you're like, well, it is kind of weird that I can get nobody to answer any emails.

Like, that's like if, why would they talk to that person? They will talk to me. Like, it's really weird. Like, what did I do to these people that they won't answer by emails? Like, you know, and that it's not a rule. There are a few people who have been very nice and talking with it. But there are a lot of people that I've written about that I know have read what I've done. And I know like it, you know, or at least have validated that it was good and it was thorough.

And when you try and reach out to them, you get crickets. or you may get a first initial email back that will say, oh, yeah, sure, we'll talk about that. And then you get nothing after that. And that's weird. So at the same time, that may all be complete paranoia. There may be nothing to that whatsoever. It could just be that they don't know me. They don't really care.

And they've got other people that have, you know, bigger platforms that they're busy with. And they're not really worried about me. And I hope that that's the case. that would be nice for me. But I do see what you're talking about, Jay and Kelly, where you have people who are given breadcrumbs. And very quickly, the investigation starts winding down or becomes so directed that you're only investigating

or you're only digging where they tell you to dig. You're only investigating what they have told you, told you without telling you to investigate. Everything becomes about validating the things, the various things that you've been told or things that have been hinted, you know, that have been hinted at in your presence. And I understand it. If I, if I had that kind of information coming at me, I would probably be doing that too. I wish I got more than I do.

What I've noticed is that when you demonstrate that you're someone who is going to to ask good questions and who has an awareness of the history and also that you're not going to like fawn. I think that they're very good at identifying people who want a seat at the table more than they want the truth and that they are very good at identifying that personality trait. And I don't mean that in like a mean way about those people. I think a lot of these people come into this because they genuinely do want the truth. But it's a it's a human nature thing that And so much of this is so secretive and so insular and so, you know, like this, it's a, the insiders club. And you don't even get, if you can't get through the door, you're never going to know anything.

And like, I think it's really easy to have that cognitive dissonance to think that this is the way that you're going to get to the truth. But really all you're getting is a seat at the table. And actually, it's the kids table. And actually, it's not even on the same weekend as the real party they're having. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. And so I think people who have like enough of an awareness to see through that end up. I don't get a lot of outreach from people I would expect to hear from as well. So I would just say that.

But, you know, let's make it even more difficult to get our emails returned. Because I want to ask you about, I guess about the forbidden science books in general. So Jacques Valais' journals that he's released. But I think most specifically about forbidden science six. Because, you know, what's so interesting about forbidden science six is that it deals with people who are still active and people who are who are still in the field right now. And I think that you see them doing things and saying things that are very surprising. And valet, I think, is good at kind of tiptoeing around the subtleties, but also like, well, straight up throw people under the

bus sometimes. I know you've read that very closely and you're extraordinarily well versed in valet and in the first been science books. So are there any, were there any like little standout tidbits for you that you were like, dang, I can't believe he put that in there. We're going to... Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha for appuccino drink or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe.

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Limit time only, prices and participation may vary, prices may be higher for delivery. Take a quick break and we'll be right back. Yeah, you know, I think that when it comes to forbidden science, you have to read valet enough and read those journals in particular enough to know how he does what he does. And he employs the Easter egg method where he does leave little clues embedded within the journals. He's talked about this. It's not even a speculative. It's not like I'm doing numerology here in my head. Like he actually does leave little things. And sometimes what he leaves

unsaid is more important than when he leaves said. So if you have a copy of a past, you know, forbidden science like it's a PDF, if you do an F search and you just look for dot, dot, dot, right? You look for that. The ellipses. Is that what you, is you do so. call it an ellipathy if it's the dot, dot, dot. What is the name for that? Yeah. So if you search that, you'll find the most juicy, all of the most juicy things, right? And where he'll just leave like a comment, like it was about to go on, but he goes dot, dot, dot.

One of the things that I love about Jacques Valais is he has a phrase. And it's a phrase that says, it went nowhere, right? It went nowhere. He uses that all the time. And if you will look, it is almost a rule that if he says it went nowhere, He's telling you it didn't go nowhere, right? It went somewhere. And sometimes he says it over and over and over again. And if you read across the journals, eventually you'll find where he admits that, oh, yeah, here's where actually I found, I found that they were doing that. So an example of this, that is one of my favorites. I believe it's in forbidden science too. I think it's the first time that he discusses it where he talks about the French using environmental sensors to hide UFO sensors or things that they want to put they have like different sensor arrays and they sort of hide them within

like weather and environmental sensor arrays in order to do that. And so he mentions that I think in Forbent Science 2 and he says it went nowhere, right? Dot, dot, dot. Then you'll read it again and he says, oh, and it went nowhere in Forbent Science 3. And then in ForbentzScience 4, it turns out that it's his idea, right? that actually it was his idea. He told the French that they should do this. And that actually, but it still went nowhere, dot, dot, dot.

And then we find out for Bensides 5 in talking with Dr. Kit Green that not only did the fridge do that, and they did it with success, that the CIA had also been doing that for a very long time. And that one of the briefings that Kit Green got was actually to discuss some of the UAP data that they were. were able to get from these sensors that went nowhere, right? Like that for, for decades, if you, even if you read valet, you know, religiously, you could almost sort of, you could think about it if you found that. Like, I know what he's saying, that that went somewhere. But you didn't, you had that validation.

And so Jacques-fil-A's conversations with Dr. Kit Green are, in my opinion, some of the most interesting and schizophrenic conversations you'll ever read in your entire life. Dr. Green bounces, you know, back and forth on every possible issue. But if you read him across the text, you can sort of see what's going on there. And it's the same thing. There are a lot of people, right? And really, this goes with everybody in the Invisible College. You have to read the conversations going back to the 70s all the way up to yes and for Ben's science six. And you can start to almost see not just their evolution of their understanding of what's going on, but in their willingness to disclose what they've learned 30 years ago.

Like now they're going to give this extra piece of information about something that you told them about 30 years ago. Anytime he senses that they're not telling him the whole truth or not senses when he knows they're not telling them the whole truth, he keeps going back to it. Every five years, every 10 years, he goes back to it. He asks him again. and sometimes he gets more information. So I would say that, you know, in forbidden science six,

there are some very interesting conversations that happen with Dr. Green about the control system. And, you know, Dr. Green believes that Valet's control system is human, which is very interesting. It also seems that Dr. Valet also sort of leans in that direction that many of the things that he is hypothesized about the, you know, the UFO phenomenon as a control system for human consciousness that there are human actors who can, you know, get involved with this. And for Bensite 6 really does seem to lean in that direction, as do many of his books. But I feel like there's almost a cognitive dissonance there where we really like to think about the control system as nefarious, you know, alien activity, but we sort of ignore all of the things that Valet's

been talking about or hinting at, you know, with his dot, dot, dot, dots for decades and decades and decades. We don't want to look at that. We don't want to talk about that. That stuff is not in the current discourse. It's not. We think we're edgy. We think we're, you know, oh, we're really getting to the meat of everything.

There are huge chunks of narrative and discourse and things that are extremely important that Valet has been discussing, especially with regard to human activities that have been going on for decades that just, they're just not part of the mainstream conversation. And you certainly are not going to hear them coming from the mainstream actors right now

for understandable reasons, right? Like, that's not going to win them any friends at the Pentagon. And so, you know, I would encourage anybody who is not read for Ben Sign 6, but really all of them, they are worth reading word for word they're worth taking notes on something that i've done i haven't done it enough but i like to i use like a notion uh sort of like a notion database but you can do it you know in any anything where i will take pictures of things and i will you know do notes and

annotate them and then i'll you know categorize them so that later i can go back and find these you know, FS5.127, and I can click on that and find all of the rabbit holes that are connected to that that I've, you know, that I've gone in and done that with. That's the kind of attention I give to those journals because they're that important. I think that if you were to look at, if there was one body of work that is the most important body of work, bar none in the history of ufology, probably ever will be, it is those journals. Forbidden science, one through six, it'll never be done. I don't believe that there will ever be a more important

contribution than that. That's my high level takeaway about forbidden science. Well, and I appreciate that, Daniel, partially just because I know that part of what you're referencing there is just how Jacques, he didn't force Gump his way into all these moments in history. he legitimately got himself there by being the guy that helped give us all the internet or help Matt Mars or all these other incredible contributions to human knowledge. And that's what kind of got him in part close to this kind of secret onion situation

that gets talked about sometimes. And I think that that was kind of like what you were walking around there just then. You know, I heard two things and I kind of want to. ask about both and I could go with either, right? One of them is like, what is the secret onion, right? And like, what are the levels here in terms of like internal and external control groups and stuff like that? Because I've heard you talk about this. And I think that you're one of the best people that I've ever heard to be able to elucidate on this point to people because I think it's critically important. And the other one that I'd also ask you about is the

control mechanism and like how macro and how micro does it get. And so and so. Oh, just that. That's the question. Those are easy. Yeah. I know. I don't do those in my sleep. I'm going to go with the left hand path right now. And I'm going to say, what is the secret onion? Yeah, I'd love to talk about that. So the secret onion is a phrase that was actually coined by valet to describe the advanced theoretical physics working group, which was. was a group that was started by Colonel John Alexander and another Air Force senior engineer by the name of Colonel Ron Blackburn, who had been working at Lockheed Scunforks. And really, all it is is a reference to sort of the structure of the way that they wanted to set up the advanced theoretical physics working group, where you would have a core. And at the core, you have a small group of people who have the most access and the most

information, right? They're sitting at the core. And then you have successive layers that are larger. They have more people involved. But as you go up, you have less information, right? Until you're at the outer layer, you have people who are maybe not, don't have a security clearance at all. Maybe they're just a ufologists. And they're able to handle unclassified kinds of things. And they are useful as well, right? But at the same time that the thing that's interesting about the onion is the person who came up with that idea was Dr. Hal Putoff. He's the one who came up with the idea of let's make it like an onion. And I believe that the reason why Dr. Putoff decided to do that is because they knew that that that's the way that the actual UFO control group on the inside either was or had

to be structured in this way. Right. And so it's a, it's not just paying homage to it is they know we want to do this on the outside. So that means we have to structure ourselves in order to do this, we've got to structure ourselves the way that it's structured on the inside. And I believe that we're still doing that to some extent. But the way it works is this, right? You're working, let's say you're a contractor and you're working on a piece of technology and you think it's some pretty interesting technology. You don't know where it comes from. You presume it's probably something very advanced Chinese, very advanced Russian, right? You're not really told about it, but you're working on it. And you've got these ideas that, well, I just know that there's something

else beyond this. And so, you know, and the truth is it is. It's right below your feet, right? There's some basement level, right, to use, you know, metaphorically or maybe even literally, there's another group right below your feet. And they have this extra bit of information. It's a smaller group. And they're working maybe even on the same exact stuff that you're working on. And all of your information is going to them, but none of their information is coming back to you. Okay. All of the information, all of it, it all points inward back towards the core. So even all this stuff out here from the podcast conversations we're having, right,

to the archives, you know, scuttle butt in the cafeteria, all of that stuff gets pointed back towards the center towards this core and filtered out. And what happens is you're never going to get to that next layer unless you have a need to know. The only way you might get there if you don't have a need to know is if you stumble in. And that has happened from time to time where maybe you do somehow really do stumble in through some kind of trap door where now you're in this next layer closer to the core. The trick is that you can't come back out. Once you're in that next layer, you are in that next layer.

And what that means is you're now going to get read into this next layer, this next program. and you're going to be indoctrinated, and you're going to have to sign your life away and all of the extra bells and whistles that you didn't realize you were, you know, you were going to have to do. And now if anyone ever asks about that second layer, you've got more obligations to lie than you did before, right?

Whereas before it was all speculative. You've heard whispers. You've heard rumors. You could maybe talk about it or allude to it. Now when someone asks you, you have to tell a lie, right? This world, this layer that you live within does not exist. and it gets worse and worse the further you get in.

And when you're at the court, it's a really small group of people. And they don't have room in there for liars, right? And so they don't let very many people in, and they don't let anybody out, right? And that's really the way this works. And so you'll see this over time. You will see figures who do are very curious. They're insiders, you know, to a certain extent. And they're curious about UFOs.

And they believe there's a UFO, you know, reverse engineering program. and then all of a sudden it's, there's nothing there. It's ridiculous. Anybody who would look for this, I looked, it's not there. This happens all the time. And chances are they fell into a trapdoor somewhere. And now they're obligated to do things that they don't like doing. Valet and Putoff and Green and Davis, they all know this, right?

This is not news to them. They know that they probably are friends, like that they probably have fallen through some trap doors, that they live in layers, even though you're sitting right next to me, I know you have levels of access beyond what I've gotten. And so I might throw some questions at you, knowing that you're probably going to lie to me about some of them, but I'm still going to throw them at you. The person who they're always asking those questions to is Dr. Kit Green.

He is always the one who they are always like, let's ask Kit Green, let's see what he says about this. And he is very good at being confusing, right, where he will give. them an answer on Monday morning and Monday evening, it's a different answer. And you're trying to decipher what's going on there. And I don't think it's nefarious. It really is just he's, he's got to do his job. And if his job is to lie about this, then that's what he's going to do, even to his closest friends. And so I think that it's, it's a very interesting dynamic, but a very

important one, because if they will lie to their closest friends, what makes you think they won't lie to you on your podcast. I mean, that's a question that we ought to be asking. And the ones that are going to get lied to the most, the hardest, are the ones who are closest to getting into that next layer. They're the threat. You and me, Jay, Kelly, we're not getting anywhere near that next layer, okay? We're not even getting close to the onion. Okay? We can't even smell the onion. We can barely smell it. The people who are actually trying and looking to peel back that next layer, those are the people who are going to be told the most lies. Those are the people who are going to have the most stuff thrown at them, the most garbage thrown at them, hoping that they will take

some piece of it and run with it and spread it to all of their buddies and their friends who are also trying to get into that next layer. And so this is how secrecy works. You can let people fall through a trap door, but they never get back out, not the same person. I can think of somebody who I interviewed not too long ago who told me that he was actually offered to join a program that dealt with bodies and craft

and he's since passed away and they told him that if you join us, he was a medical doctor, if you join this, he will never practice medicine again. And this is somebody who I trust. I've vetted him. I know who he is and he is who he says. is. And based on that, he said, no thanks, right? No thanks. Like, even though I want to know about all of

this, how am I going to go home and tell my wife, hey, I've been going to medical school all these years and working my butt off to try and, you know, become who I am today. And now I'm just going to take some random job and I'm not a medical doctor anymore. I'm not going to do that. But that's the deal in order to work with those kinds of, you know, to get that kind of access. That's the deal you make. You will drop off the map. You will not do, you know, your life's trajectory. It's going to change. And I don't want me to be cryptic about it. I will, I'll, I will write about that at some point in a format that people can get at. But it was very interesting to hear that from somebody that I know had that. There are other places where it's discussed that he was, you know,

having those kinds of conversations. We'll be. It's peak pollination season, and my business is scaling fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data speed. That's why I chose GoogleFi Wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing. Plus, unlimited plans started $35 a month. Now, that's a deal that doesn't stay.

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whether you're building it up for a full glam moment or targeting correction for a more natural vibe. At only $12, it's great for affordable touch-ups on the go. Get this new must-have concealer at Sephora or at Sephora.com today. Right back after this quick break. Yeah, I mean, I think that's so important. I think people don't recognize necessarily, like, it seems like, oh, there's all these gatekeepers and they just won't tell us the truth. And there's like a handful of gatekeepers and everyone else is a hostage. And just because a lot of them signed up to be hostages.

Some of them did not sign up to be hostages and they just found themselves to be hostages. But like most of the people that were railing against in the community being like, these gatekeepers need to just tell us the truth. they can't tell us the truth. They'd be terrified to tell us the truth. And they probably didn't choose to be in this position or they chose it without totally understanding the consequences. Because what I find so interesting about the UFO phenomenon and the way that it, I mean, listen, all three of us are absolutely ensnared by this topic.

Right. Like we'd walk away if we could, but we can't. So here we are. And but because like what the UFO does is it mirrors all of the, the things that they've shown in a lab that initiate curiosity in a human being. So it's stuff like an absurd sequence of events that doesn't have a clear resolution or a group of people knowing something that or someone knowing something that you don't know. Like these are things that are all just like baked in that we know from neuroscience creates this like almost insatiable curiosity in

people. It's there's like this tension that won't get resolved and you feel like you have to. And I don't think people recognize like how seductive that can be in that moment where somebody's like literally giving you the golden ticket or whatever and you're, you know, that you're supposed to, sure you should know better. But I think a lot of people don't. Yeah. And I think that's actually, that's a great. Yeah. Like it is irresistible. And I think that I think that that actually trying too hard is what will get you.

not let into that next layer, right? I think that that is actually, if there is a story of, you know, the, I actually like to call them the secret onion, right? So, you know, Colonel John Alexander and Hal Putoff and Dr. Kate Green and Jacques and Eric Davis and all of their, their friends and associates is that they really want it. They really want to get at that next layer. And I do think that there are many of them who were able to get into or fell into various layers. I don't think any of them were ever anywhere near the core,

but they got a lot of information. And we're exposed to some things. I think we have some confirmation of that from Dr. Davis and Dr. Putoff. At the same time, wanting it so badly is it's almost like it's a turnoff for the gatekeepers. Like they don't. They can smell the imposter, the outsider on you that you want to know so badly. it's almost like the first thing they want to ask is why do you want to know so bad? What makes you think that you need to know this information and why are you digging into this in the first place?

It's just not their vibe. They want to keep the trains running on time. They want to keep a nice orderly schedule. They don't want disruptions. That's their whole, their whole goal is to prevent people from knowing. So why are you here trying to ask me 20 questions about something that, We're never supposed to talk about. This can only go bad for you.

These are the conversations that these guys have, they've been having for their whole lives. And so I'm thankful that they did that. And I'm thankful to Jacques Valet that he's been writing about them. You know, most of these guys really, Valet is the only one who's ever published anything about these conversations. He's the only one, if you think about it. And where's, where's Dr. Putoff,

or prior to recent, very recent years, talking about his conversations about the phenomenon. Where's Dr. Kit Green? I mean, he gives an interview every now and then, but you're never going to find it. Dr. Davis, I would give him a lot of credit because over the years, even before the release of the Wilson Davis notes,

he's tried to really say what I think he felt he could comfortably and legally say. So I give him credit there, but they've done what they're supposed to do, which is not talk about it until very, very recently. A lot of interesting questions to consider as to why certain people would talk about it and other people wouldn't, and what the implications that that might be.

Do you think it's possible that the phenomenon itself ever uses researchers like yourself as tools for its own purposes? I do think that the phenomenon uses researchers and authors and even just, you know, commenters, commentators. for its own purposes, whatever it happens to be and what those purposes are. Absolutely. I think that that can sound very nefarious.

I don't know that I think that it is nefarious. Lots of people would have within their own religious paradox or paradigm, rather, they have a language and a framework by saying, well, you've been given, you know, a gift or a mission, right? Like you've got some kind of God has a plan for you. And like that's, that's always a very frequent phrase that can be used to kind of talk about, and I feel like these things are sort of laying out before me and I'm finding this and I should do this and I should do that. And I feel like it has some purpose beyond just a happenstance.

And I think that many authors of the impossible to use Jeff Kreeple's term, you know, have felt that, have felt that sort of pull, that sort of magnetic pull in one direction or another where it feels like you're not really, doing the research so much as receding it, right? Or doing the creative act so much as just becoming a channel for whatever that happens to be. And I don't think you have to, your eyes have to roll in the back of your head and you have to start vibrating in order to, you know, in order to enact some of those things, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. But for some people, it may just be that that's baked into your everyday reality.

Yeah, I think that that's, that happens. And it's interesting. I do think, however, I think sometimes when you admit that or when you talk about that, the question of agency comes into it. Another thing that Jeff Kriple said this at the archives and I thought was really funny is that I think he said human agency as a trope, which I thought was very really just a very darkly funny thing to say. But I greatly appreciated it and I thought, I'm going to file that one away. I'm using that somewhere. And it does sometimes feel like human agency is sort of a modern trope. But at the same time, in my own experience, it has certainly felt like I'm not being prodded into a direction I would not otherwise have wanted to go in.

It feels like I am doing or part of the work that I was always meant to do, you know, in a very stupid, as stupid and silly as some of the things that I that I work on are. That's what it feels like, yeah, I probably was supposed to do this. And that's why I was really good at that, but also was terrible at that. And it feels like everything just sort of falls into place and starts to make sense when you're really doing the thing that you were meant to do. Whether the agency lies with some outside force or with just within yourself, that you're part of some wider reality. I can't say. Love that. Really appreciate that.

Absolutely. Well, we have probably time for one more question. And so here is a totally original question that I just thought up all by myself, which is when it comes to the control mechanism, how micro and how macro does it get? So it's always going to be speculative because you can go to a level where there's not a natural phenomenon. There's not an occurrence that happens outside. of the control mechanism or the phenomenon's knowledge and allowance, let's say. There might also be something that's smaller. We were talking about the onion. And I actually like to think about reality also as somewhat of an onion where we have an experience in this layer that this sort of like physical layer that we imagine ourselves to live in and that we

perceive ourselves in. And we imagine that this is it. This is the layer. And those of us who are seekers are typically going to be seeking outward and up. We go outside of our body, right? We've got to get into this next layer. We rarely think about there might be a layer that's below our feet that is maybe closer to the truth. We're always trying to get further away from the situation to get perspective, not getting more grounded into the reality, the more fundamental aspects of the reality that we are a part of. We are realizing we're a part of that layer. we're all in the onion together. And so I think that where is the control system living that onion?

It would only need to live at the next layer of the onion. It would only need to be at that next layer to get a lot of the effects that we see and a lot of the things that make you scratch your head. If you have something that lives, let's say, outside of time, that would give you a lot. Or maybe something that lives outside of time and can hear all of the things that you're thinking. and can see all of your past and maybe it's something that lives out of time

outside of time and has a really great supercontutor and access to really amazing AI and so it can record everything about you, every experience you've ever had. And then can use and draw upon that in a way to produce synchronicities, to produce carrots and sticks and pathways

that feel like a path of discovery, but you're kind of being led down down a path that's laid out for you. It's really difficult to say. I tend to believe that if you can control perception, then you've got everything that you need for a control system. And I do believe that we are finding, as we get down the road here,

that even our human capacity to control perception is much more advanced than we realize that it is. Right. We know about virtual reality, but there are technologies that are, that are far beyond that, that I personally believe have been in the works for a very long time, that non-human intelligence seems to have access to,

and we seem to be working with that do alter perception. And so it's always the question of how much of it is other, the product of an outside control system, and how much of it is a product of ours, and what we've already got kind of baked into our own perception and our sort of mental Rolodex, our experiential history. And, you know,

it's going to be a percentage. It's just what is the percentage and where does the outside other layer? Where is that coming from? It's difficult. It really is difficult. I think the answer is probably unknowable. I don't think we'll ever have the ultimate.

I think we can come up with really good models, but in terms of being able to name it and say, this is the level that the control system lives at, We can probably come up with some minimums, but I think it's going to be hard to come up with maximums. Does that make sense? Like we can say, hey, it has to at least be able to do this. But the levels that we've seen, and I know just in my own life and throughout, you know, your lives, I know, just the synchronicities that you find, what would a control system need access to in order to produce some of those? You'd have to need access to everything.

However, I think our concept of what everything is is pretty narrow and a lot more narrow than we imagine it to be because we're locked into our layer of the onion, if you will, to go back to that metaphor. Right on. That's awesome. Thank you, Daniel. This is so fun. We're going to have you on again. I feel like this is just like a little amuse-boosh of Daniel. Exactly. Exactly. Have a longer conversation, but this is so great. Yeah. much. I'll see you soon. That's it for this episode. Cosmosis is brought to you by OnToclips Productions. If you want to check out our docu series, Cosmosis, UFOs in the new reality, you can find all the streaming options at Cosmosis.media. The series is available now on Prime Video, Apple TV,

YouTube, and more. If you're enjoying the podcast, make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen. Music for Cosmosis is by Michael Robino, the soundtrack for Crospection for Cesar season one of the docu-series is available now on all major streaming platforms. If you want to go deeper and help us keep this work going, consider joining us on Patreon. You'll get early access to ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and invitations to live Zoom conversations with me, Kelly, and some of our guests. You can sign up now at patreon.com slash Cosmosis Media. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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