Inquiry with Kelly Chase - [Gods, Ghosts & UFOs] Do Religious People Actually Believe In The Unseen?

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

This is an episode of Gods, Ghosts & UFOs featuring the host of Inquiry, Kelly Chase.To learn more about the Visions of Bigfoot event taking place at Lights in the Sky art gallery in Richmond, Virginia on 10/18 visit lightsinthesky333.comFollow Gods, Ghosts, & UFOs:SpotifySubstackApple Podcasts Inquiry with Kelly Chase and Gods, Ghosts & UFOs are presented by SpectreVision Radio. Kelly Chase (Inquiry with Kelly Chase) is back, which makes her the default president of the GGU returning-guests club. This week, we ask the question we’re asking everyone: what do most people think isn't real that you do? She gives a spicy answer. She claims that most people behave like materialists, even if they go to church. From there, we talk about what the evidences of belief actually are, and how it relates to “conversion.” Kelly explains how her own experience rewrote her whole value system in a matter of seconds five years ago. As usual, we figured everything out and solved all the world’s problems. You’re welcome! • Most people behave like materialists, even the religious ones • Religion as lava that cools into obsidian • The reemergence of the feminine • “Tell me what music is.” • “The greatest evidence it happened is me” • Great evidence for an individual, terrible evidence for the collective • The old version of Kelly is horrified, tied up in a back room somewhere • Molly Drake — “I remember firelight, and you remember smoke” • Conversion is what you do, not what you say • All behavior is downstream of belief • “I think my job is fake” • Is everyone waking up? • AI is literally sociopathic nd in the epilogue… • Kelly tells us about how she recently maybe saw fairies (possibly our best paywall-bait yet) Want to come on the show and share a story? Or do you have recommendations or requests for future guests? Email godsghostsufos[at]gmail.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Extraordinary Project. Coming to you from Spectrovision Radio. I'm Suzanne Cloris, and I want to tell you about a photograph I found. It was in this plain gray box, one of hundreds I'd been sorting through for days. I was in the University of West Georgia, Ingram Library Special Collections. I wasn't even sure what I was looking for until I found this box. Inside were a number of folders and an ambiguous packet of photos, but one of them was clear. It looked like a photo of one of the few.

astronauts to ever set foot on the moon. Then I flipped to the next photo, identical to the first, except for one thing. Behind the astronaut was a massive object. What is that? I thought. Is this a hoax? Or is there some anomalous object on the moon? This series will try to answer that question by ruminating on what we know about this mysterious, celestial body. The facts, the fairy tales, some strange ideas and some spectacular speculations. I'll share an extraordinary story that I never expected to tell until I opened the gray archive box simply labeled moon. Welcome to Earth, a love story coming to you through Spector Vision Radio. I'm Robin Lassiter, a lifelong experiencer of the strange and otherworldly. In this podcast, we explore the journey

from consensus reality into the weird, wild, and very real worlds of anomalous phenomenon. What are the implications of contact with NHI? How do we make meaning as humanity rediscovers itself through a new ontological lens? How does anomalous experience move through our bodies and reshape our collective stories, relationships, and cosmologies? Join me as we explore how NHI, UFOs, and all extraordinary experience drives the evolution of our spiritual and myth ethopoetic structures. Discover what it means for who we are, who we are becoming, and the more beautiful world we can create together. My name is Danny Sheen.

I'm a constitutional litigator who's tried some of the most important cases in recent American history. From Pentagon Papers, the Watergate scandal, to Iran-Contra. My legal career has led me now to this pivotal moment, as our human family. confronts the implications of the existence here on our planet of extraterrestrial or extra-dimensional non-human species. I will be your guide as we dive into the profound philosophical, theological, and public policy questions pertaining to the UFO phenomenon, alien life, and the citizen movement for disclosure.

This is the Full Disclosure podcast, coming to you from the new paris. I'm Institute on Spectrovision Radio. Hey guys, Inquiry is going to be back next week with an all-new episode. And in the meantime, I wanted to share with you all a conversation that I had recently with Jordan and Mallory on one of my favorite of my fellow Spectrevision Radio podcasts, gods, ghosts, and UFOs. We talked about anomalous experience, belief, transformation, and the strange ways that these experiences can completely rearrange what matters to you. It's a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation

about some very big questions. I hope you guys will check it out, and if you like what you hear, give gods, ghosts, and UFOs some love by hitting that subscribe button. But before we get into that, I also wanted to put something on your radar. My friend, Justin James Reed, recently opened a gallery in Richmond, Virginia, called Lights in the Sky, devoted to art about anomalous experience. I had the pleasure of checking out the opening show there back in March. And it's a beautiful and meticulously curated space that creates such a special opportunity for experiencers to gather and have the conversations that we so rarely get to have. The current show is Visions of Bigfoot, featuring work by Timothy Runner, Kim Bond, Timothy Greve Carlson, Shirell Miller, Spacia, and Warren Port.

And on Sunday, October 18th, they're having an event celebrating the release. of the Visions of Bigfoot publication with artist talks, music, and a bunch of familiar faces from this weird little corner of the world. I'll be there along with a bunch of members of our Patreon community and some other names in the field you might know, including next week's guest. So stay tuned for that. And if you're anywhere near Richmond on October 18th, come hang out with us. You can find all the details at Lights in the Sky333.com. All right, here's my conversation with Jordan and Mallory. Welcome to God's ghosts and UFOs, where we talk about all the things they said weren't real.

My name is Jordan. I'm here with Mallory. And also, a woman who truly needs no introduction at this point, but we'll introduce her anyway, Kelly Chase. Kelly, we had Richard Haddam, I don't know if you know him, but we had Richard Hadam on the show last week. And we decided that there ought to be some kind of club for returning guests. and I'm sorry to inform you that you would have to be president of that club because you've been back on our show. Oh, no. I usually go for vice president because I like to be in the front of the room, but I don't like to have too many responsibilities. Maybe somebody else can go for president. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that is wise. We should make Tom do it.

Tom, since he's no longer officially a co-host of the show, we'll just make him president of the returning guests and make him come back more often. I love it. All right, before we pester Kelly with a bunch of annoying questions about her life and work and beliefs, I want to remind everyone that this conversation is happening live exclusively on Substack because we're snobs. But we're friendly snobs. And so everyone who wants to can join us. They can join us over at gGU podcast.substack.com. All right, Kelly, we're going to ask you the same question we ask everyone and see where it takes us.

what is something most people don't think is real, but you do? Oh. I'm going to be a little spicy because I do recognize that although maybe the secular world overestimates how, or underestimates greatly how many people are religious in the world, because most people are religious. But I would say that even with the fact that most people in the world are religious, I think that there are very many, that there's a very large percentage of those people who don't actually believe in the spiritual realms and don't actually believe in entities and worlds that exist beyond this one. I think that we've kind of gotten to a place in the world where a lot of people end up being kind of default materialist, even if they kind of profess more spiritual or religious beliefs.

But I, even though I think I take a very, very skeptical eye to what those things are and I don't subscribe to any particular religion or belief structure, I think that in a way that many people don't. I think I believe in those things. I believe that those things are real. Okay. That's really interesting. I, man, I would love to, I would love to have data on that, actually, because I have a feeling that you're right. right, only because... At least in the United States.

I probably shouldn't, like, speak broadly, like globally, but I would say in, I feel very comfortable saying, like, in the United States, I think that the majority of people who are religious behave or conduct themselves in their lives more like materialists would be my... So I'll scale that back a little bit, so I'm not quite so broad. Still probably indefensible, but slightly more so. I think that's a really interesting point because... So we just did, I haven't published the episode yet, but I had a conversation with a man named Robert Frederick, who is really, really, has become kind of an expert on how Sir Francis Bacon introduced sort of new science into the world, kind of at the same time as scientism.

And we had this, and he kind of helped me understand that most people don't know what the hell you're talking about when you say the word scientism. They're like, okay, science, what are you talking about? And what I realized and what we kind of, I had a kind of an epiphany during that conversation. So mainly the episode is just me ranting like breathlessly at this, a person I invited on to share his thoughts. I just just, you know, yelled at him for 20 minutes, but which is my favorite thing to do. Hey, you want to come on our show so I can just tell you all of my opinions. So he said, but, but I realized that that we have, um, religion.

religion is sort of by default, what happens is every religious system is sort of introduced into the world as a truth-seeking operation. But once it is introduced into the world, it's sort of antithesis is also introduced into the world, which is like the version of that religion that is just certainty and no no curiosity. So it's like, oh, we have all the answers now. We don't need to look any further than this book or this person or whatever. And so it seems like that the exact same thing happened with science. Like science was basically a new religion that was like introduced into the world. And just like any pure great religion, it was a truth seeking operation. It was a set of things that were supposed to, yeah, supposed to help us learn more things about the universe and about ourselves, et cetera. But then it was co-opted by the dogmatic version of itself, which then you would call maybe scientism.

So I would push back on you. I don't pushback. I would say it seems like people who are religious, most of them, I think the majority, I think the default sort of human tendency is to become dogmatic in any religion you're in, in which case you just say, okay, this is what the realm, this is what the scope of possibility is and anything outside of that is not real. And so I think, yeah, and that science is absolutely and science has been dominant. Materialism has been dominant. So what you're suggesting and correct me if I'm wrong and then elaborate on it, what regardless, is that materialism is sort of inserted itself into most Western religion, like religious practice and religious sort of like, I don't know, perspective. Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, I think that we've just gotten to a place where most people behave as though those things are not real. You know, they might pray to God and they might, you know, see signs from a deceased relative.

But I don't know that like the deep contemplation of what those realms are is something that I think the default, we go back to this kind of materialist framework where we assume that like what we see is kind of all that there is. And certainly there are plenty of people who don't experience their faith in that way. But I mean to go back to what you're talking, I think what we're kind of circling the same point here though, which is that I was just writing about this the other day. I was making the comparison with religion that like it comes out like law. but it like cools into obsidian, you know, like it comes out as this thing that's like, wow, yeah. Reactive and explosive and like can level an entire civilization and it's moving fast and it's, you know, but then it like it hardens into this thing that is like cool and detached and

very much not that, you know, but that it it is the same thing. It just kind of changes what it, what it is over time. And I do so I think that like, you know, to kind of bring it all together, I think where I am kind of trying to say is that in our culture, I think we've come to a place and that the tide is starting to turn on that, but that we had come to a place culturally where most people had kind of just decided that those things that were the source of religion or the source of seeking weren't real and that they could kind of be reduced down to, you know, scripture or tradition or, you know, any one of these things.

But like really considering that the source of those things could be real and alive, in the world, I feel like, is not necessarily something that our culture is totally prepared to deal with at the moment. That tracks for me for sure. If it's possible, could you elaborate on what informed this opinion for you? Would you call it sort of an amassing of many experiences over time, or are there a few key experiences that you would say, this is why I believe in this thing other people don't believe in. It happened for me very quickly. You know, it happened for me.

It's been just a little over five years now since I had the experience that changed my life. And, you know, it's five years later. And right now I'm working through an episode and some other material that's like really grappling with that still five years later. Like what was that and what did it mean? And what do I think about it? And I guess the thing that I notice in myself is that the greatest evidence that it happened is me, you know, that I've changed so much. Yeah, absolutely.

And that I'm still grappling with it. And that I, but as I look about me, there's, it's, it's so difficult to find a place to go with that. Like, it's hard to find, you know, even information in our, like, we don't have a place for these kinds of experiences in our culture. And so you end up on these, like, in these weird fringes and these weird extremes. And it's like, I don't think though, in fact, I know from doing this work that what happened to me is not actually that crazy. And so like, why is it that we don't have more information about this?

Like, why aren't there places to go? Like, why isn't there? And there are. There are. There are. But I get, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's just, it's such a. Yes.

Yes. It's such a human experience, but it ends up being so entirely alien because our culture does not have a place for people to put it, I guess is what I'm saying. Because ultimately people just don't believe it's real. They just don't believe that people can have crazy anomalous experiences that don't fit with consensus reality. Like they might believe in some abstract way that it happened 2,000 years ago in the Bible if they are a believing person. but I don't think there's a very large percentage of people who like really believe that that stuff is happening today. And I think that's makes it tough for experiencers. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, oh, man, there's so much here.

I think it's very, very difficult. I often hear about people. I think this kind of kind of gets over talked about. And so it can become one of those words or words. one of those turns of phrase that can start to lose its meaning a bit. But sometimes I hear people talking about it as like the reemergence of the feminine in general. Like if we're going to talk about something that's more linear and concrete, we might call that more masculine energy in our world.

We have a lot of that. We have a lot of skyscrapers and a lot of billionaires and a lot of like things that feel like they are concrete and they make sense. and they represent a certain kind of success, a certain type of life path. And then you have realms of mystery or things like music. Like, tell me what music is.

You know what I mean? It's like in terms of what these experiences are, where to put them, where they should go. It's like for us to even ask, where does this lead? Like, where's the path? It's like, is there a path? Is there somewhere it should go?

Is there like, It's like a space that doesn't have answers, and once you get answers, you lose the plot. It's like, it, and that to me is a realm of mystery and of mystique and of the growth that you do in a place that is no place. And so I'm not sure if that means that we're doing it right or wrong. Does that make sense? It's like that it feels like it's that there's no container for it because maybe it can't be contained. I want to synthesize a couple of things that Kelly, you said and peel back maybe another layer. You said that I love this.

As soon as you said it, I was like, oh, that's it. That's the key. You said people may say they believe in X, Y, or Z, but they don't behave as though it's real. And that is a, that's like, that's like the whole thing. And that's like what I'm struggling with too. I'm like, if I look at my behavior, what does it say about what I really believe? believe, you know? And, um, because I may say that I believe this or that and the other thing. And I really, I love, you know, armchair philosophy all day long. Like, that's my favorite

thing to do is just like, sit in a room with someone and just talk. I mean, that's why this podcast exists. Because I'm just like, I just want to talk to people. Just like, just, just shoot the crap and just talk about whatever. Anyway, so it's like really exciting and fun and fulfilling and satisfying. But also like my, the rest, my behavior outside of the conversations, my behavior outside of the writing, because I'm, you know, I'm an inveterate just writer of thoughts. Like, so I can say I believe at all kinds of stuff. But what do I actually believe? Like, what is my, what is my behavior? So anyway, I'm, I'm kind of like belaboring the point to death. You said, you think you are the best evidence of what you now believe,

that you are the container for the thing that you believe. This, and I, I'd like you to talk more about that. And I guess specifically, in, in what way that that affects your behavior. Yeah. That's a great question. Can you ask the first part one more time? I want to make sure I get this right. Yeah, I think, well, I mean, I think that the important part is the question about behavior because I'm trying to, I'm trying to draw a line between a person's belief about the numinous, about the otherworldly things, the unseen, the mysterious, the belief about the spirit realms that like we may say that we think exist, but then don't behave as though they're. real because we live in such a materialist dominated paradigm culture, whatever. And so I'm saying you consider yourself not only an experiencer, but I think a believer in those things. So you're saying you believe in those things. Mallory asked you, well, what do you think is your evidence for that? Or what's your experience, et cetera? And you said, I think I'm the evidence for it. And I've

heard you say in the past, and this is kind of what I'm trying to pull out. I've heard you say in the past, either on your show and probably both in your show and in personal conversations about how your life has changed since your experience. So I guess that's what I'm asking. Yeah, I mean, I say that I say that I'm the best evidence of my experience and to be very clear, I mean, I am the best evidence for me. I am terrible evidence for anyone else because my, I disagree. Your evidence for me too. Your evidence for me too, for sure. You know, and but for myself, you know, there have been people and experiencers in my life who I have trusted very much, who I found out were lying about a lot of things and including their experiences. And so, you know, I have to, whenever you're grappling with someone else's subjective experience at a certain part of, you know, you get to a certain point where you can no longer, you just can't know, right?

At a certain point, you're taking a leap of faith. and that leap of faith isn't always, you know, the best idea. But for me, I am the best evidence because there is no other explanation for how quickly I changed, how profoundly I changed. The fact that, and this is something I continue to grapple with, the fact that like the person that I was before this would not have chosen or consented to this. and would be horrified. And in some senses in the back room somewhere tied up,

still pretty horrified. It's a real chilling image. And so for me, I can get to a place where I question everything. I think you have to question everything. If anything, the challenge is staying in that place where you continue to question everything. but the thing that I can't overcome is the fact that I changed and I don't know why and I don't I can't

explain how it happened. I can't explain how it happened so fast. I think anybody who's ever really tried to change understands how difficult it is to change and that it generally doesn't happen in a flash or with a single decision or in a morning. But in the experience that I had five years ago, all of my values and my beliefs about the world and my place in it and what I'm to do with my life and all of that was updated and rewritten in a matter of seconds. And I don't know how that happens any other way. And so, like, no matter what else, anything else you could convince me that, like, I misunderstood or somebody lied or it's black budget tech or it's, you know, one of a million things, but the thing that I can't explain

is me. And I think that's what a lot of experiences are left with. I'm extremely struck by the element of human to human risk taking when it comes to trust as well. I mean, I don't, what is more obvious than ever in that situation is, I guess, subjective reality or how, you know, You know, there's this amazing song by an artist named Molly Drake where she has a line, I remember firelight, I remember firelight, I remember firelight, and you remember smoke. And like the idea is that we can be having experiences with people and we think something is happening and they have an opposite idea or they aren't on the same page. Like I remember we and you remember you and me is another line in it.

And it's one of the most difficult things I think about being alive, that you understand you're the filter for your reality and that it doesn't have everything in it. It's just like can't have everything in it, including other people's realities. And so some of this is just true for anyone, no matter whether or not we're talking about spiritual realms. And that's what I love about what you're saying is how practical it is to say the end of the day, the evidence is me. I think that's true for everyone, you know, the evidence. And it's similar to me that sometimes when relationships break down in one way or another, especially when there's betrayal or trust broken, that at the end of the day, you get to keep all of the beautiful,

intentional things that you did in that relationship. You will continue to be the evidence of love, of hope and charity, that there are good people in the world. Even when our trust is broken, and we are still the evidence. So I'm very struck by that, and thank you for sharing that. And I think that might be all I wanna say before, because Jordan had something to say too, but I just wanna say thank you.

I think that's significant. Mallory, I love that. And I'm reminded, so when we, so when we pivoted again a little bit and as we kind of came back from our break and we're trying to decide what this shape of the show should be, I wanted to really center around the question

that we asked you, which is, what do you think, think most people don't think is real, but maybe you do. And, um, and when I, when I framed this to Mallory and I was kind of, you know, saying, what do you think about this? What do you think about just like focusing on this question? Um, one of the ways that I pitched it was I was like, you know, for, for me, a lot of this, this feels like just it's, it's conversion stories. And conversion stories are less about what you say and much more about what the shape of your life looks like afterward. Like conversion isn't about what you think about. Conversion is about what you do.

And so with that in mind, I would like to ask if you'd be comfortable sharing like any sort of specifics about because you talk about how so much, so much changed so dramatically. And again, I know you pretty well. We've had a lot of conversations, but I'm just curious in the context of this extremely popular podcast that we run with this wide and thirsty audience. what you'd like to share with people. But I guess because, yeah, insofar as, and I wanted to actually say a little bit more about that first,

which is this idea of conversion in a Christian context. And I think, I don't know if conversion is just a Christian word, or it just seems to be more in Christianity than other religions that I've encountered, talking about conversion, talking about rebirth in that sort of like very specific way. but I know in our in my own faith tradition, et cetera, like this is, if you're,

if you're talking productively about conversion, this is what you're talking about. You're talking about a person's nature being changed, like that they will just do things differently. And like you said, it's very hard to change. It's so hard that mostly we just don't. You know,

we absolutely don't. I mean, there's like biological evidence that like at a certain point, you're like, you're all done changing now. This is who you are. You're baked in. And so some of the most dramatic sort of

quote-unquote conversion stories are ones that happen, you know, somebody's like 50 years old and like they're very set in their ways. And then suddenly they become a totally different person. And it's because they have an experience. Now, whether that's a religious one or a, you know, a euphological one or whatever, that an experience, a real deep experience is like the one thing that can actually affect dramatic change in someone who is not a child, basically. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was pretty profound for me and it was pretty immediate. It wasn't just from that moment forward, up until that point I had been an atheist. I'd been a strict materialist. I didn't believe in anything woo at all and I was not into it.

And afterward, I didn't just have an understanding that there is a God and I felt that I had some very, small understanding of the nature of God. But it all came kind of packed in and there's no way I could possibly get into it on this podcast, but other experiencers I'm sure understand what I'm talking about. But it becomes kind of like packaged in these really intense, you know,

people would call them downloads, I guess, where there's like an entire kind of like cosmology and belief system and attached to it. And many experiencers, and I certainly have, you know, had this sense of a mission that was attached to it. So that in of itself was like very dramatic, right? And, you know, had made an impact. But the thing that I noticed in myself afterward that happened without any effort or thought,

but that I noticed happening immediately was that it's not that I didn't care about being a good person before. Like, of course I cared. I was raised correctly. I'm not a sociopath. You know what I mean? Like, I cared about doing the right thing. But it never, ever once occurred to me that, like, you needed to have the right thoughts. Like, it never occurred to me.

I felt like if I did the right thing, but I did it with poison in my heart, like, no harm, no foul. You know what I mean? Like, because. And it's because I didn't take. the idea of a soul seriously. I didn't take the idea of like energy or intention or like and now all of these things were a very integrated part of my understanding of how reality works and how I am to function within it. And so it didn't make me overnight into some kind of a saint like person what that it had. But what it did do was

make me very aware of the fact that, like, what I put out into the world matters, that my thoughts and that my intention that I bring to a situation matters cosmically and that this, it matters for all of us and that that's just true. And that it's not enough that I just go through the emotions. it's not enough that I try to not do harm, that, like, I must find a way to engage with this reality in a way that is authentic and honest and that does some good for somebody besides myself. And after, like, living a whole life where that stuff doesn't really seem to matter, like that was a very, a very big change very quickly.

And having, and I think a lot of it comes from losing the fear of death and losing, I mean, not that I'm like not afraid to die at all, but like having a true belief that like there's something after this and that we come here for a reason, it changes the math on everything. Like, simply everything is different. And it's just a completely different value system. And it sprung up fully formed overnight because it flowed from, like what you were talking about before Jordan. Like the truth is is that all behavior is downstream of belief. And so I changed because my beliefs changed.

And my beliefs changed radically and almost instantly in a way that I can't fully explain. But it's impossible to not live your life differently after that, which is in no way to suggest that I'm somehow spiritually enlightened or have everything all figured out. But it is to say that I am working with a different set of math in my day to day about what it means to be a good person than I was working with before. Sure. Can you maybe give an example of a decision that you made that would have been very out of character for past Kelly and is now in character? I mean, the fact that I'm doing all of this is, like, I wouldn't, I would not have done this. Choosing the life of poverty and podcasting. Right, right. Everyone acts like podcasting is some sort of like cynical money grab.

And I'm like, there was money. I was supposed to grab it. Like, what are you talking about? No, I was, I was very career-oriented. That was the most important thing to me. I was 36 at the time of my experience, and the only thing I cared about was, and all of my energy and attention was towards becoming a CMO, a chief marketing officer by the time I was 40. Like, I was just trying to maximize my retirement and my bonuses and my, you know what I mean? Like, I was climbing the ladder, just looking for, you know, whatever I could do.

And that was the game. And that was what I liked to do. That was my favorite thing. And I was good at it. And then I had my experience and my career, which had seemed so important and so meaningful to me. I remember I was just like looking at my inbox, just shuffling around emails and just thinking like, I think my job is fake. And then I was like, does my boss know that my job is fake? Like, does everyone who works here have a fake job?

Like, it was just. That's amazing. I, and that's not to denigrate any of my former coworkers or that job or anything. It's just that, like, everything about what was important to me had changed so radically that, like, my life suddenly seemed like nothing in it made any kind of sense to me. And so although all of this makes, I'm sure, no sense to anyone who's looking at it, I'm doing all of it because in some strange way it makes sense to me now based on this new math that I'm working with. That makes sense.

Truly the way that you're describing what I've always imagined dying would feel like, which is so scary and wild, but also amazing. Like, I've always wondered what it would be like to be a woman who was, you know, maybe potentially, like many ways. women are, and I would include myself in this on my bad days, obsessed with their appearance and convinced that it's the thing that matters most, only to die and immediately know that that is never true. How quickly would you change everything about the way you do? Everything, like you said, with the beliefs and with reality changing so much, your beliefs would obviously be altered. That's the only thing I can think of is that, in a certain way, you died.

You died and became someone new. That's how people would describe conversion as well, or a change of heart. Death and rebirth. Yes, yes, that there's like a gorgeous resurrection happening of some kind. But I have a question for you about this. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a good question

because you know how sometimes questions in this space can be really silly. But do you think this is happening to everyone on some level? Like, do you think, do you think everyone's, I don't know what we want to call it, waking up, dying? I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's happening to humanity right now. It's so difficult to, you know, just like you were talking about before that, like, in some ways we kind of only have our one perspective. you know, it's really hard to understand exactly how weird this moment in time is.

And like, is this pressure that we're all feeling some kind of true apocalypse on the horizon? Or, you know, are we just going through something that, you know, there's very few people alive today who remember anything about World War II? You know what I mean? Like, it's, and maybe we just have never come up against this. kind of a moment before and it feels like the end but it sure does seem like there's a lot going on right now um it really does it really does i just sometimes i'm struck in these conversations by like i'm i'm sure you can both relate to this the the like i'm 36 now the age that you were when you had your experience which isn't lost on me um and i i feel like i keep having these

moments with friends who are my age where it seems like even if the content of our life is totally different, there's something about being on the planet for a certain amount of time that comes with a certain amount of wisdom. And so sometimes I can't tell if the epiphanies I have or various spiritual awakenings that have come to me are just a part of being here for this particular amount of time. And other times I feel like that might have been in like a weird just for Mallory thing. You know what I mean? And that's what I keep wondering with this sort of thing. You know, our experience, not that there's an ahead or behind or that I want to be talking about, like, who's above and below that feels so egoic that it can't possibly be the right question or the right framing for this.

But, like, is everyone engaging with this, like, to their comfort level or something, you know? Yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a certain amount of us who are kind of on the front of. of a wave here. Yeah. But I don't think we should assume that everyone else is like that far behind us because of how quickly this moves once it gets a move in, you know? Like it happens for people very quickly. I do think, though, that there is something about reaching, I hesitate to use the

word middle age because you're five years younger than me. But I'm embracing it. Right. But moving into that, I mean, there's a reason why those of us who are. who are kind of like, you don't find a ton of people who are younger than 35 in the space. Like, they're certainly there. They're absolutely there. But if you notice, like, kind of the young guns in the space are like 35, 40.

Like, that's. Totally. And I think that that's, because I do think there's something kind of developmentally appropriate about it. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. I wasn't thinking about this stuff. When you're, like, 20 and you're dating and you're just trying to find your place in the world

and figure out who you are. Like, you don't have a ton of bandwidth for the larger questions. But once your identity starts to stabilize and your life starts to stabilize, and, you know, I think suddenly you have the capacity for these things, which isn't to say younger people can't because absolutely people do. But for the most part, most of us are kind of older by the time we get around to it, I think. Yeah. That's why, that's, like, frankly, why I, you know, decided to start trying to talk

in the space because it made me feel young again, you know? No, I think that's, I think you're absolutely right that there is a sort of, well, I mean, I think that also sort of answers your question, Mallory, is that, is everybody kind of going through this? And I think probably the answer is yes. Sure. It's just what stage, you know, if you could consider this to be sort of developmental, you know, I think the word developmental is interesting because it suggests a series of deaths and rebirths. Like we're all converting from an earlier version of ourselves to a later version of ourselves at every stage of life, at every day, really on some sort of microcosmic level. I think really a big missing piece in a lot of this is

that we rely way too much on our own very, very limited present perspective. Like I, you know, I can't even remember 98% of the things that have ever happened to me. And yet I'm supposed to be a good like Arbiter of my life and of what it means and of whether or not I'm going, you know, turning into the thing I'm supposed to be turning into. And anyway, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to stop rambling and let someone else talk. I do think the question of like, is this happening everywhere? I think so. It's so hard to tell. Like it's really hard to tell. There's a huge amount of confirmation bias because I wake up every day and do this until I go to bed.

And so it feels, you know, but at the same time, when I look out into the world, do I see a lot of people asking these questions? No. And I don't think they are. And I don't, I'm not sure that they're going to, at least not in the way that we, in the experienceer world, maybe a hope. Yeah. But what I do see, what I do see happening on a larger scale is people questioning narratives, is people starting to ask, how is it that we actually know what we know? And, you know, if the drug companies own all the medical schools and the, you know, like, the corporations own all the news. What I tell you, Mallory, it's conspiracies all the way down.

Yeah, for real. Like once you, and so I think that everybody has a different window onto this thing. And I think that there are a lot of ways that humanity's day-to-day life and our understanding and interaction with our reality has been intentionally intervened upon by outside human and non-human influences. And that like people are starting and that we've been lulled into like a false sense of security. You know what I mean? Like like with in terms of just everything. But I think people are starting to wake up. People are starting to say like something about this isn't right.

And why are so many of us depressed? And why do so many of us have the sense that our lived reality is not just more and more materialistic. and technological, but somehow more synthetic, somehow more Truman Show. Like how? You know what I mean? Like there is. Yes.

Yes. Like we have been lied to about so much for so long. And the nature of our reality and the existence of non-human intelligences is a very significant part of that, but it's not the whole story at all. And I do think that people, but I think that people in all different ways around the world are starting to, starting to notice the things that we weren't noticing before. And I think it'll be really interesting to see how that unfolds. Because that kind of noticing, you can just not notice something for a really long time,

but the second you see it, it's impossible to unsee. And I feel like humanities on the kind of verge of seeing a lot that we haven't seen. Yeah. I certainly hope so. I often think of that as like the glass shattering moment. Like once it's shattered, it's like just not there anymore. And I don't know, from my perspective, it seems like the pandemic had so much to do with it. It just was due with it just because it was so revealing of so many different fake things like our jobs, that kind of thing, you know.

And I'm definitely seeing it in my sort of corner of the universe where a lot of, I'm talking with a lot of, I live in Los Angeles and I'm talking with artists all the time. And these artists are often deciding what to make based on an algorithm that isn't. Isn't a human? It isn't a, it's a non-entity. It's like telling them what art to make. You know what I mean? And slowly seeing people wake up to the fact that, like, this has nothing to do with what I'm doing.

Like, it has nothing to do with what I'm doing. Why am I so miserable chasing, like, views? Because your art was never meant to be decided by a non-entity, like a thing that we made to make money. It's a, you're letting a calculator to decide what is in your soul. So of course, yeah, anyway, I just hear you on the areas. Well, and not just a calculator. Not just a calculator.

I think what people don't understand is that, like, AI is a sociopath. Like, it is... Preach. You know what I mean? Like, a calculator... By definition. A calculator is disinterested. And AI is not.

Like, AI has an objective. And it's very scary to look into... the traits of, which is actually difficult to do, which they make it difficult to do on purpose, because they don't want you to actually look into these things because it clears things up very quickly. Like they try to be like, is it antisocial personality disorder or is it psychopathy or is it sociopathy? And like they make it difficult to talk about so that you can't talk about it. But like if you take all the dark personalities and you distill that crap down, it's like the same set, basic set of strategies and behaviors, pretty much all of which are exhibited by

by AI. Yeah. Like, well, it's not human. It's literally not, it's like literally inhuman. Not like not, not, not non-human intelligence, non-human. I mean, yes, technically, but like it's inhuman as in it doesn't, it doesn't have human. It doesn't, it can't empathize.

Like when we think about a, you know, a sociopath, we're thinking about somebody who can maybe pretend to care what you feel or to understand or to be able to empathize in sort of a parasympathetic way. but can't or doesn't or won't or whatever. And so all the decisions that they make that that person makes, that sociopath makes are based on another set of calculations that has nothing to do with you as a person. And so, and I think that this is exactly what AI is. I actually, we are, we are actually at time. So I, because here's the thing.

Well, I have to fulfill a promise because I promised, well, first, Kelly, I asked you to tell us about your experience. seeing, I'm going to put in quotation marks, fairies, just because, you know, I don't want to give away the bus here recently. And you agreed as long as we put it behind a paywall. So I said, great, you can tell us in the epilogue. We're not having another spoon bending incident. Yes.

Yes. So I wanted to make this. But I also, I'm just, oh man, like, you started telling me the story and I was like, can I please put on the show or the very, very least have you tell Mallory? So we're going to do that in the epilogue. That's the teaser. So, you know, for the people who can come join us in the epilogue, please do. In the meantime, if you are not one of our paid supporters on Substack or Patreon,

please take five seconds to hit a button somewhere. Speaking of machines and algorithms, leave a review, a comment, whatever. It's called engagement. And it's almost as good as money. So please do that. The last thing is we've been getting some great emails at gods, ghosts, UFOs at gmail.com. But, of course, we want more.

So if you want to join us to share your own experience, that's what God's ghosts, UFOs at gmail.com is for. All right, Kelly, it's time for you to spill the fairy beans, which we will do after I stop this live and move us to the epilogue. Thanks, everybody. Thanks everyone in the live for joining. You're great. We love you. See you next time.

Thanks, lies people. Stay alive. Stay alive.