Inquiry with Kelly Chase - [The UFO Rabbit Hole] An Interview with Darren King (AKA ExoAcademian): Point of Convergence

Episode Date: July 7, 2023

NEW Class from Dr. James MaddenUnidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the WorldFour-week online class via ZoomWednesdays, March 27 – April 24 (skips April 10), 20247 – 9 pm ETLearn More About the ClassSign Up NowGET THE EPISODE BRIEFFOLLOW EXO/DARRENExoAcademian YouTube ChannelTwitterPatreonJohn E. Mack Institute MENTIONED IN THE EPISODEExoAcademian/Darren interview on Engaging The PhenomenonDr. Diana Pasulka interview on Theories of EverythingThe Monroe InstituteGET THE BOOKGet a SIGNED COPYGet it on AmazonFOLLOWWebsiteTwitterFacebookMUSICTheme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun FrearsonBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-ufo-rabbit-hole-podcast--5746035/support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I've got a story to tell you. It might sound unbelievable, but the person who experienced it once fought the same, until they saw something that changed them forever. Here we dive into the paranormal, the strange and the unexplained, from personal supernatural encounters to some of the most infamous unsolved mysteries in history, all told in an immersive, atmospheric, narrative,

style. Let's hear these stories and try to figure out together what really happened. The world is a very strange place. Someone has to record it. Because after all, everywhere has a ghost story. Archived in collaboration with Spectre Vision Radio, welcome to the tape library. Welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Chase. First, a couple of quick announcements. We'll be having our monthly patron-only AMA Zoom call this Saturday, July 8th at 1 p.m. Eastern. This is a chance to come and hang out, ask me any questions that you have, and connect to other like-minded folks in the space. If you'd like to join us, you can sign up at patreon.com slash UFO rabbit hole.

I'd love to see you there. And second, throughout the beginning of July, I'm going to be traveling to work on a couple of new projects that I hope to be able to share with you soon. As a result, next week there will be no new episode, but we'll be back on Thursday, July 20th, with part three of waking up inside the cave. I didn't want to leave you hanging this week, so I decided to go back into the archives and bring out an interview that I did last summer as a part of a YouTube series called The Rabbit Hull Conversations. This conversation was with Darren King, aka Exoacadamian, of the Point of convergence and liminal frames podcasts. We just had Darren's co-host from Liminal Frames,

Nathan, on last week, so this felt like the perfect time to pull this one out. As was mentioned in the last episode, Darren is someone who spends his life in the deep end of the UFO phenomenon. I enjoy engaging with his work because it challenges me to think new thoughts and explore frontiers that I might otherwise look right past. On top of his two podcasts, Darren is also the communications director for the John E. Mac Institute. and he is currently preparing to launch a new course on the development of individual and collective consciousness this fall. This was one of my very first conversations with Darren, and although so much has changed in the last

year, this conversation still feels deeply relevant. I hope you enjoy it. Here is my interview with Darren King, aka Exo Academian. Darren, welcome to the show. Thank you, Kelly. I have to be here. I was listening to your wonderful interview on engaging the phenomenon the other night, and said something that really stuck out to me. And I kind of want to use that as sort of our starting

point, which is that you were talking about how you've recently come forward in terms of putting yourself out there publicly with your face and your name and all of that. And talking about work that you have coming up and speaking about it, you use the word vocation, which is a word that's been like coming up for me synchronistically a lot lately. And I really wanted to explore that because I feel like, you know, once people dive into this topic, you think you're starting with UFOs and then somehow you end up with the nature of reality and consciousness. And then suddenly, for some of us, we have this awakening, right? This like drive to do something new. And I would just love if you could share as much or as little

as you'd like to share about what does that process look like for you? Where did you start? How did you get here? I would just love to hear it all. Sure. Well, I'll give you the Reader's Digest version because it's a long story. But I think it's interesting because so I was thinking about this before we went on the air and I was thinking, you know, I know you're going to ask me about generally how I got interested in this and what made me start believing in these kinds of things and whatnot. And so I was thinking back on my process and it's really been a process over a long time. And it's interesting because when I was a late teenager, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and it was a very, very postmodern region and there was not a lot of belief in spirit or in an

underlying meaning to life. And in fact, it was very much a deconstruction mode. You know, There is no ultimate meaning, everything, just how you see it, subjective interpretation. All kind of hierarchies and kind of underlying meaning was being taken apart, deconstructed, because it was seen as oppressive. And so I grew up in this kind of environment where that was the case. I didn't grow up with religious parents, pretty progressive liberal parents, pretty laissez-faire kind of upbringing. And so I found myself hungering for something that did invest meaning in my life, which I think a lot of young people are. And so at that point of my life became an evangelical Christian.

Looking back, not because it was necessarily the perfect bit, but it was what was available and what was offering kind of meaning. And I went on that journey for a long time. And then eventually, after years and years, felt less and less committed to that, less and less did that feel like home to me. Too many questions were arising for that kind of dogmatic view. So then, again, based on the way our culture is often, there wasn't a lot of alternative at the time. Then I kind of like came out of that and went through a brief period where I was never atheistic. I still sensed this underlying meaning, but I was very much a reductionistic materialist.

I had very much the physicalist model of reality, unless I can knock on it and measure it, those kind of things. That lasted for a little while. And then I found integral theory in Ken Wilbur's writings and teachings. And that was really helpful for me in terms of re-enchanting the world in a lot of ways without making it religious, without being dogmatic. It was this view that helped me understand that we could take all of the truths that have been broadcast around the world, discovered around the world over time, both esoteric knowledge, as well as the scientific revolution and whatnot, and combine it together. And Ken Wilbur used to famously say, everybody's right. And he didn't mean to the same degree everyone's right, but to some

degree everyone's right. There's these different kinds of truths we need to bring together in that interiority or internal states and subjective meaning and purpose and spirituality are real too. And they need to be brought into our sort of meta narrative. And then I began to actually have this sense of spirituality again. And this is a long answer. And then we move into profound experience with myself, right? And that even in that crowd was a bit much, right? So you have that kind of crowd where this is what I find so interesting, these different communities I belong to over.

time, there's still these rule sets, like, this is okay, this is not okay, right? And, and so the paranormal was actually not really welcomed that much in integral circles, even though sort of deep, historic, spiritual knowledge was, you know? So you're okay talking about reincarnation, but you're not okay talking about alien abduction or something like that, generally speaking. There's always exceptions to the rule. But after having an anomalous experience of my own, and then over time, just realizing so many people have those kinds of experiences, and they had these uncanny characteristics that are similar, that are in common,

that without these people having a background or having read about it, there's these weird things that add credibility to me. So then it begins to bring in this sense that over time, you begin to wonder if something is orchestrating the entire thing, right? And this is where the synchronicity comes in. At first, it's just little bits here and there that seem, that's strange that that happened. What are the odds that would happen?

you know, that another one happens, then another one happens. And then you learn about parapsychological research and how much the sci phenomena is well documented. And then you look in quantum theory and how consciousness seems to impact physical reality in different ways. That only when you actually have a consciousness measuring something, does it actually collapse into something that's then measurable? It shows up in the physical world we can knock on and measure in both you and I can see. So the aperture was opening back up again, recognizing that there's a lot of, you know, magic in a way, a lot of enchantment to reality. And then personally, when I mentioned the other night, the thing about synchronicity and a sense of vocation, it's just one thing after another lining up,

but again, you say, what are the chances that would happen and that would lead to this and that would lead to this? That's part of it. Just looking back and realizing this overarching orchestration is what it feels like to some degree, right? But then also you add to that, this idea or this feeling, That's really hard to put your finger on it, that you're having ideas that you didn't used to have. You know, that there seems to be thoughts in your mind that weren't there before. Things that you feel even called to do that you didn't want to do before, which raises all sorts of interesting questions around free will, you know, determinism, because where is that coming from? And is it now mine? And was it given to me?

Who originated that thought of that feeling? But for me, it's been a combination of feeling that overarching orchestration and not, resisting that, but feeling like this feels like home for me. This feels like what I'm supposed to be, who I'm supposed to be. And so that led into this sense of certain things I want to pursue, certain things I want to do, ways I want to join with people in certain different topics and different endeavors together, adventures together. And all of that feels, again, orchestrated. It feels synchronistic. And it goes back months and months. And when I take for 30,000, but you, sometimes it feels like it goes back decades. That's a long answer.

No, I love that answer. I resonate with so much of that, honestly, that feeling of orchestration. I think that's what happened for me as well is just a feeling that all of these disparate parts of myself and my story and the things that have interested me all came together. And it was like, oh, that all makes sense because it was preparing me to do this. And I don't know why this is so important, but suddenly it's the most important thing. Right. And it's almost like our rational brain wants to be able to analyze it, you know, critically and say, well, it's this led to this led to this. but sometimes it's not that simple, right?

And that feels like almost like the wrong tool for the job. It's more like this overarching feeling you have that you can't put your finger on and yet it's there. Yeah, absolutely. If anything, I feel like you can go a little too far. At least I can following the synchronicities because I'll have some really good ones. And then I'm like, all right, the universe is communicating with me at all times. And then like, it's not. Right, right, right.

Exactly. You got to watch. You got to watch out for that. It does it on its own time. That's for sure. So for people who are, I have a. a pretty diverse audience and a lot of my audience are people who actually aren't as deep into the community and are into this more as like a side interest. And so for people who are a little

less familiar with kind of the consciousness side of the phenomenon, would you mind just talking through that a little bit? And for people who are confused about like, all right, so we're talking about UFOs, we're also talking about consciousness and all of that. How would you explain that connection? As the Krispy Chicken Sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm a Like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect.

Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold. I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me. And baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4. Quiet. No.

Crispy, saucy, and $4? Very. Only at 711. Valley 36, 2326, participating stores only while supplies last the app for full terms. Yeah, that's a big topic. And I can understand why it's confusing to people. And it feels like at some point we switch topics and how do we end up over here?

So there's a few elements I would touch on. Number one is even when you go back to Kenneth Arnold and the beginning of the saucer movement, you know, in the 1940s kind of thing, the birth of the modern UFO era. At first it looks like a case of him spotting some anomalous objects in the sky and that's it, right? And so people who maybe come up this from a nuts and bolts perspective go, wow, that's cool. That could be, you know, ET technology from Alpha Centauri or wherever. And that sounds exciting. But then you learned that later on, he became, like we were talking about, synchronistically

kind of obsessed with this entire thing. And it led him to other rabbit trails and different spiritual paths. And he had things like orb show up in his home and the weeks after his sighting, things that you go, well, how is that connected to seeing nuts and bolts ET technology up in the sky? But then you find that that kind of thing happens all over the place, that you, really can't separate these two topics, the high strangeness or the paranormal and UFO sightings and or alien contact, as much as those sound like different topics entirely. And for a long time, it was underrepresented in the literature because nuts and bolts, UFO researchers that wanted to be

taken seriously and seen as credible in the scientific mainstream, when they would learn about these different elements of people having sightings and then having elements of high strangeness show up in their lives, that was downplayed in the reports that were made at the time, because, again, these ephologists knew that they would not be taken seriously with those elements. And so they either just ignored those cases altogether, or if they did report on those cases, they would conveniently leave out those details. And I think it was people like John Keel and Jacques Valet and the 70s, really, who dug deep, didn't have a bias with an unprejudice perspective.

And not only dug out all these details where so many of these cases, these euphological cases, where it's seeing supposedly craft in the sky, not only did all those cases involve elements of high strangeness, general paranormality, but when Jacques Valet compared this to religious history and even like fairy lore and that kind of thing, he found all sorts of similar elements, especially when you get beyond the cursory kind of veneer of how it might be described. when you look at what actually happened to people, there was a lot of similarities, a lot of intersection between these

what were considered to be before, diverse, different fields. So that's a big part of it, is that there's just these elements of high strangeness and paranormality that seem to enter into people's lives when they intersect with what we consider UFOs or aliens. And lastly, I would say that the other piece

where consciousness comes in, or two more, one is people are often changed and often permanently, like they'd actually, not just because they say, okay, ETs are real, so that gives me a broader perspective and it changes my view of my life. It's more than that they have this deep spiritual sense, for lack of a better word. I mean, that's kind of a broad word means lots of different things for different people. Some people are triggered by it. Some people are fine with it.

But this underlying and overarching sense of purpose behind everything, they somehow have this come into them. You know, it dawns on them. They see reality. differently, they see their lives differently, when they have this kind of contact. And so their change from then on it, they often become less materialistic. They become more spiritual or more open-minded, more concerned about their neighbors, concerned about what we're doing to the planet, all these kind of things suddenly change in their perspective. And the last piece I would add is that there's a survey that came out a few years ago, the free survey, which was an experiencer survey.

And the broad strokes of that are, if you've seen a UFO, you're much more likely than someone from the average population to have an experience of side phenomena like telepathy or having a precognitive dream. If you've had a near-death experience, you're more likely to see a UFO in the future than the average population. In other words, there was this crossover between out-of-body experiences, near-death experiences, seeing UFOs, having contact with alien beings. ghosts, apparitions, all of these somehow overlap. And it's not just that some people like to make up lots of stories. And so that's that crowd. It's that actually when you look at the data, it really does seem some sort of switch is turned on in a way you could say. Something dawns on these people. Something changes when they have one of these initiation kind of experiences. And from then on, they seem to have an openness and a perception of these other kinds, too.

And underlyingly, it seems like consciousness is the undercurrent beneath all of them. That's such a good answer. He did a much better job than I would have done. Sometimes I get on these weird side tracks and I'm like, how did I get here again? But yeah, no, I think there's so much in there that I want to respond to. What's been very startling for me on the one hand is that like a little over a year ago, I was an atheist. I was a pure physicalist and like ride or die, you know?

And yeah, that's over. I definitely believe in God now. I have a personal relationship with God. But I also have been just opened up to this whole world of experience. And it's been really startling for me because I don't regard it as being, even though it did bring me back to God, I didn't regard it as being particularly religious experience. I wouldn't have classified it that way. But to recognize the parallels between what I've experienced and kind of all of this other, you know, people,

it follows that kind of same model is almost like a religious conversion, you know, And it's very, that's very interesting. Yeah. And even when you step back and you look at religious history, right, and you again, separate the interpretation of what happened, right, versus what actually happened in the raw experience, there's so many similarities, right? When you take away, was this an angel or a demon or was this an alien and you just say something nonconventionally human interacted with people and changed them in profound ways and even

impacted the way that groups. of people saw reality, then you could say that this has happened across time. And the alien interaction, modern mythos is maybe just the most recent wrinkle on that. Yeah. It's so crazy. And I think something that a lot of people don't realize is just how much scientific data we have in support of sci phenomenon. I think that it's really kind of treated as like a Joe, it's Miss Clio. It's just something to snicker at. But for decades now, we've had, I'm sure I don't tell you for the audience. For decades now, we've had probably more replicable experiments done on this than just about anything else because people have had to keep proving it and it kind of doesn't matter how many times they prove it,

that humans do seem to have this latent ability for being psychic or telekinesis or all of these different things. I just don't think people necessarily recognize that. So I know you work a lot with this kind of phenomenon and you think about it a lot. So for somebody who's new to this and is skeptical about it or wants to start looking into it, like how would somebody start to look at themselves and try to cultivate that and recognize that power within themselves? Right. So first thing I'd say just to highlight what you just pointed out is that when people look with objective eyes, like you say, the evidence is overwhelming. And you made a great point in saying that a lot of these researchers that take parapsychological research seriously, go above and beyond in the protocols they put in place because they know it's going to be mocked and ridiculed, no matter what result they find, no matter how rigorous their controls are, they know it's going to be mocked or dismissed.

I think that people often mistake the spirit of science, you know, the way that science is supposed to be conducted versus scientism or the way that human beings just get in the way, right? And that one thing when I look back in my history that I've been just struck by time and time and time again is how these different people groups that have different world views are all so dogmatic. It's just the way we're wired, right? We not only want to hold on to what we believe and think it's right, but we are almost militantly opposed to any other views because they question ours, right? So yeah, so that's the first thing to say is that absolutely if you want to look at the research, it's profound. It's really strong. It's replicated like you said, time and time and time again. Dean Radin's work would be a great place to begin. He has numerous books. I'm sure you've

read several of them that are a great place to start where he has, again, used really strong controls. He set up strong protocols. It's really, really difficult. I would say near impossible to disagree with the results he's found. And that's been time and time again. And then in terms of ourselves, I think that this is one of the ironic things is that when he actually tried to do a, and I mentioned this in the interview with James, when he tried to set up an experiment testing psych capacities, how psychic people are, he actually found it very, very difficult to find people who hadn't either had some sort of psychic experience themselves or who had parents that hadn't either or siblings. In other words, most people, when they're answering honestly,

have had something happened to them that they can't explain according to a strict physicalist model, right? Information that they obtained somehow that they don't know how they obtained it. It just came in somehow in one of the non-ordinary means. It wasn't through their sense organs. It wasn't that someone told them they didn't read it. They just learned something or they had a sense, right? So he actually found that it was very difficult to find people who hadn't. So I would say to people, you know, think back, again, objectively on your own life. Because, again, if we're in the culture we're raised, right, where we're taught this stuff as impossible, then we will block it out, disregard it because that's what worldviews do.

They let in the information that confirms the worldview and blockade anything that doesn't, right? And it's only when there's a stampede at the wall of our worldview that puts cracks in it, that creates enough dissonance that we ever begin to question it. And often it's only when we think we're going insane because there's so much dissonpid. Do we then break through and arrive at a new world view that lets in that new information, that becomes a part of our reality? So I'd say to people now, think back to your own experiences and to experiences you've heard from people you know and you trust that are credible people in your life and begin to do

some research and find what people have, what kind of information that people come across that they shouldn't have come across, what ways has reality been impacted in ways that it shouldn't be according to what we're usually taught about it? And I think when people do that, they'll find there's evidence even in their own life. Yeah. And I agree. I feel like, I mean, obviously there's a danger in, you know, you see people get that mindset where they're like, there are no coincidences and they read into everything. But I think an equally extreme view is that anytime something weird like that happens, that it's, oh, it's just a coincidence or I didn't understand that or I didn't see it right.

But everything can't be a coincidence. And I know for myself, when I've had those kinds of experiences, in my life, there's just a different feeling about them, you know? And sometimes you could even share it with somebody else. And they're like, that's cool. And it's not really, they don't feel it the way you felt it. But like you almost know, I feel like there's a different feeling to it. That's a great point. And I think that's one thing that's a key piece in this. And this relates back to what I was saying about people who have had UFO settings or alien contact or these other modalities they've experienced. And the deep way that they're changed by it, right? And this raises an

interesting question around what do we lean on in terms of authority in our lives? What do we look to to make sense of the world and tell us we should trust this and not trust this? And like you just said, for those of us who've had these experiences, they resonate to such a strong degree that someone could argue and say, well, that's just subjective. But when you've experienced it, it's very, very difficult to argue with because it feels in some ways more real than real, which again, And speaking of the data, that's one of the things that's fascinating about the data with people who have had near-death experiences or out-of-bought experiences or who have been in the presence of these others, whatever they are, right? Interdimensional, extraterrestrial, whatever you want to call them. When they've been in those alternate domains, because it feels often like people are taken into a different mode of reality altogether, but that feels more real to them than this feels.

And so they're returned here. And then people say to them, well, that might have been just a dream or it's not as real. And they said, well, actually, now that I have something to compare it with, that felt more real than this. And like you said, when we look at these different synchronistic events, and I totally agree with you, by the way, this doesn't mean like throw up critical thinking. You know, it doesn't mean read the tea leaves and think everything means something, right? I drop my pen. What is that trying to tell me? It's not that.

But it's, I think those of us who do come up from a background where we're not quick to jump to conclusions like that, we are eventually persuaded by the overwhelming evidence. And like you say, that real deep sense of purpose and meaning behind it, that is, it's hard to quantify, but it's very, very real. Absolutely. What do you see as being the benefits of exploring the consciousness side of things? How has it benefited you? Why would you recommend it to people? What is that like for you? Well, I mentioned earlier the reenchantment of the world.

I think that's a big part of it. Like you mentioned earlier, when you start seeing this data and the way that the data overlaps and not just from the UFO phenomenon, but the implications of quantum experiments that were done 100 years ago, the parapsychological research is like 150 years old now, you start recognizing that matter or the material world or a physicalist model doesn't seem like the best explanation for what's going on. So part of the reason why there's so much resistance to the idea of the UFO phenomenon, especially when the high strangeness factor is brought in,

is because it just doesn't fit with a physicalist paradigm, right? It's not, it's one thing if it's aliens traveling in starships, but greater than light speed or something in getting here, people can handle that. But when you start saying there's a spiritual element, they seem to manipulate space time in ways that we don't understand, then it begins to call into question whether our model is workable at all. And as Jacques-Blay said, what the UFO phenomenon teaches us is that we don't really understand space-time at all.

Because, again, that's what I love about him and his approach is that rather than saying, well, that can't be true because it doesn't fit our model, you look at the data and say, the data is clearly saying this consistently, repeatedly in people's experience. Therefore, if our model doesn't allow for it, our model must be incomplete. And that kept happening to the point where there was so much data standing against that model, outlier data, right, that eventually I began to look for alternate models of reality. And you start asking what would a model of reality be like such that it could incorporate all these different elements, side phenomena, people experiencing the debt, people having near-death

experiences, people contacting beings that seem supernatural. How is all this possible? How is telepathy possible? Not only with aliens, but with human beings to each other. And for me, that led more in the direction of idealism and the sense that ultimately the material world as we see it that we construct is more like a dream space. When you're in a dream, I actually can lucid dream. And when I'm in a dream, I've deliberately tried to investigate this like a Sherlock Holmes kind of case. and I have not been able to find anything that feels less real there. And yet no one would say to me that that's a material world, right? They would say that you're, again, from a physicalist paradigm, your brain, your physical brain, the gray matter in my skull is somehow generating all of that phenomena that I'm experiencing.

And yet it feels just as real. So when I come back into the waking state, I'm less convinced that just because I can knock on this desk and it makes a sound and it feels solid, I'm less convinced that that means it's ultimately real or that's its underlying nature. So in the long run, what that does is it makes you realize, ah, you know, this life is not as simple as I live a few decades and then I die. And then when my body's dust, there's nothing to me anymore. You actually have this spiritual sense of this ongoing journey you're on.

And it's a meaningful journey. And there's purpose. And maybe it extends over multiple lifetimes and that I'm connected to you and everyone else, right? that we're somehow all part of some undercurrent of consciousness that's also purposefully driven and moving towards something, greater harmony or something. And so that is just a much more enchanting and rich, vibrant world to wake up to in the morning. It's been my experience. I'm sure it's been yours too, sounding based on what you said has changed for you. So for me, it really does change your entire perspective and your outlook and it makes it much more meaningful. But again,

It's not because I wanted meeting that I made it up and then tried to find evidence. I found the evidence pointing in this direction. And as an implication, it just leads to a perspective that feels so much more meaningful. Yeah, I really get that. And I think what's interesting is I think that it's easy for people to maybe dismiss that and say, oh, that's wishful thinking or that sort of thing. Like you're just telling yourself what you want to believe. But I think in coming to the other side and trying to talk to people about this who are in the place that

I was. The thing that I actually see, and I think I see in my past self as well, is that that doesn't make it easier to believe. In some ways, I think it makes it harder. I think especially if you're somebody who is in that materialist mindset in this postmodern world, and it's all about, we're also disconnected. It's all about rugged individualism. It's all, you know, you've got to make it on your own. And to say, no, actually, like, the force is kind of real. We're all connected. There's meaning behind everything. We're more powerful together. And all of that's real. It's not just a feeling that you have or a wishful thought, that that's a reality that you can tap into. I think that that's almost scarier for people to believe because if you were to believe that and then realize that you

were wrong or to have that taken away, I feel like that's actually a big emotional investment. And I see that that fear in people. Does that make sense? It does. And I think that there's two ways that applies. applies for individuals, but it also applies for our entire culture. So, for instance, we with a scientific mindset who've come out of European philosophy and European history, for instance, and how that's dominated the way that our view of reality with a physicalist paradigm has been put together, you can't divorce that from where it came from. And it came from a Europe that came out of an era where the church had all the power, where everything was seen as divinely inspired and controlled. And science emerged from that, right? And so you think back to how a lot of

our entire culture was about, you know, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, right? So there was this kind of sense that almost like a self-hatred about our cultural history that we gave into that. How could we possibly have believed that? How could our ancestors have been duped by this silly religious thinking seems so silly to put the earth at the center of the universe and who were we in our hubris right and so then as i've often found we swing the pendulum to the very far end of the spectrum right and we say there is no spirit at first we first went to a period where the church then had control of the spirit world right that was their domain and science could look at you know the waking state in the material world and what the world was made of and eventually

when science gained in power, it said, ah, forget it. Spirit doesn't exist. That's just all mushy stuff. It's in your brain or your mind, which is just an epiphenomenon of your brain. In other words, it's all reducible to neurochemical reactions and that's it. Electrochemical stuff, and that's it. Ultimately, all that really exist is matter. So we have that entire history as a culture, right? And one of the things that integral theory that I mentioned earlier talks about is this notion of a pre-trans fallacy. And so what that talks about is how we, if someone hears what you and I are talking about, right?

And they're coming from a physicalist paradigm. They might say, ah, those silly people, they're regressing back to a religious mindset. Are they from medieval Europe? What's their deal, right? And so what happens there is, what we're doing is being thoroughly embedded in the physicalist paradigm,

being raised in the world we were raised in. We're saying the evidence has been so overwhelming for us. both individually in our own lives and in the lives of people around us and what we're seeing about reality. But like you say, we actually had a really, really high bar to ever be convinced that the physicalist paradigm was not correct because everything in us, you're raised in a culture. You just assume that your parents and your teachers are telling you the truth, right? You just assume that they are. So it takes a lot of dissonance built up by evidence to make you ever question that. So I think it's really interesting because like you,

you say, we actually, I think, are the hardest ones to persuade and we're raised in that. And I think not only as individuals, but as an entire culture. So our entire culture, I think, is wrestling with, it looks like a regression to some people when actually it's a transcendence to something higher where there is more that's included again. And it's not about going back to a previous model. It's saying, wait a second, some of that stuff, the shamanic culture, Some of the things that we just assumed was magical thinking based on people who just didn't understand science. We say, no, science allows us insight into a certain aspect of reality, but there's more than that. And it's not just subjective, mushy stuff in our heads.

There's something really there. There's an interiority to life. And this all comes back for us. And like you say, I think we're the hardest ones to persuade. And all I would say is, and I'm sure you feel this way too, for me, it gives me grace for people in any kind of world. right? Because I've been there. I know what it feels like to be completely convinced of one perspective and then change and when you change and you adopt a new worldview, hopefully you hold it more loosely because you've been through that once before at least or twice. I've been through several, right?

And so you hold it more loosely and you recognize that what you think about the world today, how you conceive of the world and reality will probably also evolve 10 years from now. That's just what's always been my experience. Why would that change now? But I think the trajectory use into more meaning, more depth, more richness, not the other way around. Yeah, I really get that and resonate with it. I think going back to what we were talking about, this feeling of vocation and orchestration and our lives and that sort of thing, I feel like that's made me more empathetic to other people in their journeys as well, because I don't know where they are in their journey. And I really know where I am in my journey, if I'm being

honest, you know. And it just, I think it's given me that. sort of understanding as well, that maybe this is just part of their story, getting them to where they need to go and, you know. Right. And looking back at your own life, I'm sure you can remember that it's, in some ways, it's a pretty hopeless journey in some ways. I mean, you can sort of buckle down and say, I'm going to make the most of it. I'm here for a few decades. And like you say, I've got to be this rugged individual and carve my way into the world and leave a mark on the wood and then I'm gone. And as much as we have these superficial kind of encouragements in our society, the material of society, it's actually a pretty hopeless endeavor in some ways.

I think back to like, you know, radiohead songs and you just become this more productive member of society fitter, happier, you know, you get a career, you get what you want, you buy a house, these things. And you find it doesn't actually make you any happier, doesn't fulfill this deep need for purpose that's in us. So when I see people who are still in that, I have grace for them. And I understand that that's a, I know they're convinced of it, but in some ways that's not a fun place to be, even if they're not totally in touch with it not being a fun place. Like when you look back at your own life five years from now, five years ago, I'm not sure if you felt then or were self-aware about the lack of overarching purpose. But I think that leaves a lot of

people hollow in our modern society. I completely agree. And I try very hard to never say to anyone who I think might take it the wrong way that I feel, that I do feel sad for people. And I don't mean that in a condescending way at all. I mean, I feel sad for me when I look back because I was self-aware enough to recognize that there wasn't a lot underpinning life. And I had to keep moving really fast to keep from recognizing that or for letting that. I really set in. And when I think of all the things that I did to outrun that thought, it just seems crazy to me now. And I'm, yeah, I never want people to feel like I'm being condescending when I say that, but I do feel a lot of empathy for it because I know how hard it was for me. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So I don't want to rehash it too much because I know

you already talked about it and I want to make sure we get the most out of our time. But I know that you had this really cool experience where you went to the Monroe Institute with a bunch of people and did sort of a human and initiated contact. Is it event or experience the E? I never know. It's events actually. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool. I switch it back and forth all the time. But yeah, I would love a few just from a high level explain, number one, what is human initiated contact

and what does that look like? And number two, what benefit is there from doing these things in groups? Why did that group convene itself? Right. So that's, speaking of synchronicity, that's front and center for this particular story because if I trace it back a while,

a friend of mine named Chris Bledsoe has had these outrageous experiences with the phenomenon going back down. decades now. In fact, when he looks back at his life, his entire life has been underpinned by this interaction with these non-human intelligences. And at one point, he had someone visit him, a guy that works for the government, a guy no named David. And is often the case with Chris. Chris is a really down-to-earth guy, lives here in North Carolina, really humble guy. And yet these big names that you would recognize from the government or the private world end up visiting him because they hear

stories and then they end up having experiences where they too, for instance, to give you an example, when David was with him in his house, they were just talking, right, sitting on the couches inside the house. And then Chris suddenly says, oh, I think they're here. And that's often what happens for him. And then David said, what? And ran outside. And sure enough, these giant orbs would suddenly manifest in the sky and then go shooting by, right? And so what's fascinating about that is not just that these things showed up, but Chris knew before it even was going to happen that they were about to arrive. And even people like retired criminal John Alexander, a super straight-laced scientifically minded guy who worked on a lot of cutting edge tech in the military non-lethal weapons was his main thing. He had the same experience where he was with Chris and sitting on the porch and Chris said, oh, speaking of them, I think they're here.

And sure enough, something showed up. a giant flash over the trees that's unmistakable for anything else. I mean, just to be really clear to people, all of the usual prosaic explanations are out the door. John Alexander, Air Force Colonel, knows what to look for. It knew that this was a genuine anomalous phenomena that he was experiencing. So what happened was after that event, David was changed by it. So David went back to his house in Virginia and said, what do I do with this?

Like I feel changed. I feel like there's this overarching purpose. These things that show up, they don't just show up on nothing else. Like, I feel like this is somehow connected to consciousness and all of us being connected and connected to them. And what are the next steps? Speaking of vocation like we talked about. And so his vocation or his calling was to, we need to take the next step.

We need to gather people together and investigate this further and try to actually initiate contact with these others, whatever they are. Right. And speaking of whatever they are, that's a difficult question to answer. And even in Chris Bledsoe's experience alone, there's so many elements that are from across the spectrum, stuff that feels your standard UFO or orb to something like a spiritual being, like this glowing lady that showed up, very similar to the story of Fatima, Portugal that happened in 1917.

It was eventually decided a manifestation of the Virgin Mary by the Catholic Church officially. So David then started asking around gathering people that were either cutting edge researchers looking not just at UFOs but also the consciousness connection and gathering together different experiences from different parts of the world. And he spearheaded as a sense of calling this event at Monroe. And we chose Monroe because, or he chose Monroe because he knew also that it was somehow connected to out of body experiences and sci phenomena and all that. an astral projection is somehow all connected, even though that sounds bizarre and outrageous to people at first blush. So he called up on this sense of calling. He called up the Monroe Institute and said, hey, I would love to organize this private event. And they said, well, sorry, we don't host private events. We have our own programs you can come and take part of. He said, no, this is something

revolutionary that's not been done before. It's the first time thing, but I really want to do it there. So he just didn't take no for an answer, kept calling around, talked to different board members of the Monroe Institute, eventually got enough of them on board that they agreed. Like, it's almost never happens. I'm not sure if it has ever happened before that a private event has been hosted at the Monroe Institute. And by the way, just in case people aren't clear, Bob Monroe was this guy who had these crazy out-of-body experiences in the 1970s. He just found himself coming out of his body and like looking from the ceiling down and seeing

his body and then be able to astrally project outside of his house and fly and various things. And his journey was to figure out, am I going crazy or is this actually happening? And he eventually gathered together physicists, one of which was Tom Campbell, who now has his own thing that he's doing around consciousness. And Tom Campbell went in as, again, a mainline physicist with a scientific paradigm, holding to the physicalist model. And he too started having out-of-body experiences and realized there's more to reality than what we thought. Anyway, so David calls together these different people and says, let's, because there's a sense of meaning and purpose and connection to these specific others, I don't want to dismiss people's experiences when they have negative experiences. There's a vast assortment. And I think one of the biggest challenges for people is recognizing not just that some others might be here, but there might be a multitude of others that are different groups from different origins. But these specific ones that David's interacted with the

Chris Bledsoe's interacted with that I've interacted with have always been positive encounters. So we thought, let's take this, or he thought, I should say, let's take this to the next level. Let's gather people who have an expertise in this or who are prime contactees, meaning they have a lot of these kinds of experiences and can seemingly manifest things and gather together and in a really dedicated way pursue things like understanding sci phenomena and actually practicing it together and forming a coherent field together and using that energy to try and reach out and connect because part of the underlying premises, if we're all connected, then if a multitude comes together and has a shared intentionality to make connection, then it just creates an even stronger energy field where that connection can have to do that, to bond together and to try and make contact and bring in the scientific stuff. Like we had cameras there to film the entire thing. We had scientific sensors like random number generators there that were running at the same time. We were having these encounters. And also use like astral projection that they use as part of

their hemisint technology right there at Monroe and combined all of that to have these experiences. And it was a really profound experience happened at the end of May, about 19 of us gathered together, combination of ex-military, but they kind of had looked into some unusual aspects of reality. So people like John Alexander, like I said, historically astounding remote viewers like Joe McMonigle were there, who's again, speaking of side phenomena, the stuff that he's remote viewed is astounding. He worked for Project Stargate that was run out of the CIA in the 1970s, even looking into military apparatus in the Soviet Union, again, time and time again through other means that intelligence was confirmed as accurate. So we did all this together and, yeah, it was a really profound experience. How many discounts does USA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here.

Multi-vehicle discount, safe driver discount, new vehicle discount, storage discount, legacy. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply. That's so cool. It makes me, it's like very badass and I'm just very glad that it's even happening. I think that's great. I've been wanting to get to the Monroe Institute also. I think everybody that's even slightly interested in this stuff has probably listen to binaural beats or some hemisink stuff that's on YouTube, right, that's out there. This is kind of next level because they have some more recent programs that they run only there.

You get into this tiny cubicle and it's completely blacked. out. You can't see the hand in front of your face kind of thing. And then you use headphones and or they actually have speakers that are beaming this audio signal into the different parts of your brain. And the idea is that the two hemispheres of your brain end up sinking because of these slightly different tones that are there. So even though you might be hearing someone talking or some music, underlyingly, they're also using this audio technology where the different hemispheres of your brain are being synchronized, which then allows for an expansion of consciousness makes it more likely not only that you'll have an out of body experience or astrally

project, but also that your consciousness remains expanded so that you can begin to encounter some of these other beings. And that's a big part of what I think it's about is that it's a broader consciousness that makes us more aware of what's already there. We just haven't usually been aware of it because we have such a narrow focus. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me on something that I'm really intrigued by, I mean, everyone's intrigued by it. But something I'm really intrigued by is the hitchhiker effect. Just because it seems like one of the strangest things. You know, even if you hear about everything they're doing at Skinwalker and all that,

all the weird things that have happened there, still somehow the hitchhiker effect stands out as being the thing that seems the hardest to believe, right? This idea that the phenomenon would follow people home and across the country and that it was transferable in some way. But I think what's really interesting to me about that is that we really notice it in that situation because it's associated with paranormal phenomena. But I feel like the more that I've become more aware of my interior world and worked on meditation and expanding my consciousness and that sort of thing that I've become incredibly aware of how easily that energy transfers between people and how quickly somebody else's energy can just like hijack your entire nervous system without you even really being aware of it. And now you're carrying that with you.

And it doesn't even have to be somebody in the same room. You can get it from Twitter. And I feel like those things might be related and that we just don't recognize it when it's not paranormal. And that's what I'm partly getting at with the narrow focus is that, you know, it's like they say, right, if you're thinking about, you know, buying a red Toyota, suddenly you start seeing red Toyoters everywhere you're looking, right? So in other words, to some degree, what we direct our attention to determines what we end up seeing. We, again, are raised in a milieu where we're told this is what reality is. This is what's possible. And what we don't realize is that a combination of that and like you say having busy lives and needing to navigate the world amidst a barrage of data, right? So what we end up doing is a combination of our cultural history, what we're taught about what reality is and just needing to navigate a fast-paced world.

We actually narrow our focus and not surprisingly miss all sorts of elements, right? Because we're basically willing ourselves to do it, but unconsciously, right? And like you say, once you start meditating, and one of the most profound elements of meditation for me initially was recognizing that when my usual executive ego that I used to manage my world, right? When that goes offline, suddenly my consciousness expands. And I find myself, it feels like I'm dropping into a stream of consciousness that's much broader than me and my small world. And I started even a feeling of familiarity, almost memories that don't exist in this lifetime or this iteration. I don't know, I don't even know how to place them. But it makes me aware that there's so much more that I'm connected to through a medium-like meditation.

So absolutely, it's a combination of choosing to practice these things and becoming self-aware about how narrow your focus was before. And I think anyone, once they begin to really widen that aperture and look for it, it's almost like, holding your peripheral vision open a little bit to what you might see. And then you start perceiving them more and more. And then like you said, we find that we impact each other, that there's these, seems like these, you might call them consciousness waves or something that impact each other. And we might chalk it up beforehand to I had bad pizza last night or I didn't sleep well or whatever. But realize, when really when we trace it back, we say, no, I interacted with this person. And there's some sort of residue, either good or bad, that's carrying with me

from that interaction still. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know we're coming up on time, but one thing I did want to talk to you about, I find this really interesting. I feel like I have not, I don't know what I think about this yet. And so I've been really interested

to talk to people like you. So I was listening to theories of everything, talk about it all the time, love that show. And Dr. Diana Sisulka was on. And she and Kurt were talking, and they both had this quick little exchange where they both said basically

that they wouldn't do CE5 have a human initiated contact because they believe in it. They're like, yes, I believe that you can summon these things. I just don't know what these things are. And so I personally am not going to do it. I know that that's not the opinion you have. And I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that. And like, is this a dangerous thing for people to do? And are there ways to kind of protect yourself? That's a great question. And I think a lot of people would wonder that when they hear these different perspectives. So a few things I would say, number one is when you, when you're just, when you're you leave your house at night, right, and you go to different parts of the city, you probably

make decisions about which parts you would feel safe going to and which ones you wouldn't, or even what time of day you would feel safe going there or not. So already we recognize that we make decisions, you could call it a kind of protocol that we will follow when we just go about our waking lives, right? But we wouldn't say never leave your house, right? It's just dangerous. Bad things can happen, so never leave your house. Just stay at home. I mean, some people actually have a syndrome where that's actually what they feel, right? They feel as overarching dread about ever going out. And I think, to be honest with you, the extended world that we're talking about here, extended reality, the same logic applies that if you plan a trip to the Amazon, you don't go

in sandals and shorts and go hopefully have a good time, right? You bring a guide, you have a knife if you need it, you have food, you become aware of the snakes and the spiders that are in the area. look out for, right? So again, it's just basic preparation. I would also say that some people, and I have talked about this in my podcast, a fair amount, actually both podcasts, have a perspective that anything anomalous is dangerous or could potentially be something demonic. Chris Bledsoe, for instance, that I mentioned, the greatest amount of persecution he's faced is from his own religious community, that even when experiences like healing happen, no matter the positive fruit of the experiences, there are religious believers who are convinced these are demons, and nothing you

could do or demonstrate would change that perspective. So I think some of that happens. Sometimes people from a religious background have a tendency to skew towards this could be demonic, right? Because that's already part of their worldview, right? And there's certain passages in scripture that talk about Satan parading as an angel of light, for instance. And so people will pick and choose, I mean, I have a biblical studies degree, so this is part of my background. So people will pick and choose certain passages to say to you, you should be wary of this kind of stuff, well, ignoring other passages. And that's the first thing that's kind of a pet peeve of mine. But most importantly, I would say, once we get past people having certain preexisting paradigms that shape the way they see this

otherworldly aspect of reality, when you do you do, you just a lot of, you know, just look at the hard data, and I brought this up in the conversation with James, I've looked at the data and people who follow certain protocols, right, that the CE5 or the Heist protocols, which means there's a certain kind of preparation you do before you try and make contact. I've looked at the data and it's around 98, 99% of those kind of endeavors end up with positive experiences. In other words, there really does seem to be a demonstrable data-driven element to this that says when you follow these particular protocols, then you're very likely to have positive experiences. And so I find it a little bit disingenuous personally for people to

paint the whole thing as if it's, well, you don't know what's going to happen. It's like spinning the wheel on the wheel of fortune and it could be bankrupt or you could hit the jackpot. I don't think it's that simple. I think you can exercise more control than that. I think that in any of these subtle states, if you come in with fear or negativity, that gets mirrored back to you. I think that's partly what we see happening as Skinwalker Ranch. So you need to be, need to cultivate self-awareness to go in knowing that you yourself have a positive attitude and that that doesn't get reflected back to you. And again, what I see when I look at the data from people, and I've talked to people who've done this for decades. Dr. Joseph Berks is a friend of mine and he's been involved with

C-5 going back into the 80s and 90s, way, way back. And he's never had a negative experience. But I'm not just relying on one or two people who've never had a negative experience. I'm saying when I look at the body of data, it says that when you follow these certain protocols, which means specifically you're preparing yourself, you're doing meditation, you're coming in with a positive intentionality to connect with others who also have a caring positive intentionality. Then when you join with others with that intention, you tend to have positive experiences. And that's why for me when I went to Monroe, gathering together with this group of people,

some of us with a very scientific background, but none of us being cynics, none of us being hyper-sceptical, all of us having some degree of experience with this already. Not for a second was I concerned. And in my own experience, including what happened at Monroe, I've had nothing but positive experiences as a result. But lastly, I always want to give the disclaimer that is not to dismiss people who have had negative experiences. This is where it gets complicated because I think there are negative entities. It's not like I'm saying it's all love and light and you can't, no matter, open your front door,

you're going to run into these positive, benevolent beings. Again, just like what I talked about when you go to certain parts of the city at certain times of the day, you do need to exercise discernment still. But I think it's a wise discernment that you can learn and that the way you interact with the world, including that world, determines often what happens. both ways. That makes a lot of sense to me. I really appreciate your perspective. And I think it in some ways brings us full circle because I was thinking about what you said about Chris Bledso and the negative reaction that he's gotten from his religious community. We've talked about how there is this sort of something that's undeniably, it's a little bit like religiosity, this sort of

transformation that people can undergo. But at the same time, it's very much not a religion. In fact, In some ways, it's very counter to a lot of religious thought because there's this idea that you don't need an intermediary and that you don't need an interpreter and that you don't need anything to connect to this sort of deeper mystical reality. You just need to clear your mind. Right. So for instance, one of the reasons why I'm a little bit frustrated by people who quickly want to put this into a certain religious category is that they might say, oh, you had a positive. experience with a seemingly otherworldly being. Welcome to Christian mythology. That's an angel. And they're trying to help save your soul. Or if you have a negative experience, they say, oh, welcome to demonology. You just had an experience with a fallen angel. They're trying to

rob your eternal soul. And that isn't to say, again, that those both positive and negative entities exist. They do. I really believe they do. I think there's things we can do to have some impact on which ones we interact with like I've been getting at. And I think, think there is a certain element of spiritual hygiene, basically preparing yourself that you can incorporate and that you should incorporate whenever you're doing these kind of things. But again, basic common sense, just like when you go in the Amazon, there's certain things you'll prepare for. But yeah, in people like Chris's experience, not only does it have a spiritual element to it is overarching spiritual, like creative, like ultimate meaning tied to it, but it doesn't fit with any

particular mythos, whether it's Islamic or Christian or specifically Christian, like evangelical or Catholic. It just doesn't. There's elements that fly in the face of all of that. And so just like we talked about with mainstream materialism, and it has a vested interest, the scientific establishment has a vested interest in not letting the public believe this stuff actually is real, right, like the sci phenomenon or the UFO phenomenon, because they want to have that controlling narrative, right?

It's not all malevolent like that. Like just sometimes, again, people unconsciously guard against anything that would begin to question their own worldview. In the same way the scientific establishment does that around some of these elements, different religious communities do the same thing and say, look, religious stuff happened in the past, right? But now we have a book and everything's safe and tame. And as long as you follow these rules and it's about the afterlife, then you're good to go, right? And so it's partly a way of, in the same way the scientific, scientific establishment does it. Because again, this is where dogma comes in. I find this time and time and time again with people groups is that they resist outlier data, not because it's not valid, but because it questions their narrative. Yes. Absolutely. I see that a lot. I think we all do. On all sides. Exactly. Nobody's immune to it. Exactly. Innocent of that.

Yeah. My soul included. Well, listen, it has been fantastic talking to you to close us out. Where do you feel kind of led in this adventure next? What can people expect to show from you? You know, I began my podcast a couple of years ago or two and a half years ago. Yeah. And began just with an investigation, right? Like just recognizing that this was real somehow, but not knowing how it was real, not knowing which of the hypotheses was accurate or if it was a combination of them.

So it was very much a journey for me in understanding, right? To some degree, an intellectual journey. as I've gained clarity and through some of the stuff we've talked about, the synchronistic orchestration, feeling like there's a vocation urging me in a certain direction has become much more than an intellectual exercise for me. And now I feel this kind of purpose-driven kind of a directionality where I want to do more of what I did at Monroe. I want to connect with people more often. I want to join with people in different endeavors. So one of the things I've been thinking about is offering courses what we talk about these things. And it's not just someone listens to audio and they're in their own world, but we actually interact both in person and then even through a video kind of conferencing kind of scenario. I really want to join with people in that and kind of joint endeavors and consciousness, basically.

And yeah, that's basically what I know for now. I'm working on a couple different books. I'm excited to do more things like Monroe in the future. That's the general direction I'm going is to make this more pragmatic, more practical. more human-centric, like connecting with people. That's part of the reason why I sort of came out of the shadows and wasn't just an alien avatar was so that people could interact with who I am

as a human being. And I want to just continue to broaden that scope and join with others and see where this journey and consciousness takes us. Well, that's wonderful. I'm very excited to see what you do next. And yeah, I hope we can keep a touch. I'm really inspired by your work.

And I'm just also feeling that I see it a lot in the community right now. There seems to be almost like a collective push for more collaboration. I think we're all realizing that we need to work together more. I agree. And it's, it's really cool hearing that you have had changes in your life over the last few years. And I didn't know that you'd come from this atheistic, scientifically minded background with a very sort of narrow focus on the world and have also had this synchronistic orchestration in your life. So that's really great to hear. I can't tell you how often I hear that, though. That's what's amazing about it, is that it's not rare, you know, when people begin to open their minds to them. And

then it begins to happen, that they feel this overarching purpose and that it's not any individual life. It's about somehow all of us, like you say, are connected and the desire for more collaboration and connection for sure. And I've enjoyed the conversation too.