Inquiry with Kelly Chase - [The UFO Rabbit Hole] Interview with Kevin Lincoln on Beyond: UFOs and the Unknown

Episode Date: October 26, 2024

Hey everyone! I just wanted to drop this quick bonus episode to let you guys know about another really exciting UFO docuseries coming out this Sunday, October 27th on MGM+ called Beyond: UFOs and the Unknown. This series from JJ Abrams’ production company Bad Robot features Whitley Strieber, Jeff Kripal, Garry Nolan, Leslie Kean, Chris Mellon, Jay Christopher King, Tim Gallaudet, Mitch Horowitz, and many more. And hey, guess what? I’m in it, too. It looks like it’s shaping up to be a fantastic show, and it is an absolute honor to be involved in this project next to so many people that I admire.  In this episode, I sat down with Co-Executive Producer, Kevin Lincoln to hear more about the show and about the process that he and his team went through to bring this to life. I’ve been very impressed with Kevin and his team and how far they were willing to go to chase this story down all the strange rabbit holes that you find on this path. Kevin is a very intelligent and extremely well-read guy, and this was a fun conversation that made me even more excited to watch the show.   —Kelly  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Plus taxes and government fees. GoogleFi Wireless is not subject to data traffic deprioritization during times of high network usage. Welcome back to the UFO Rapid Hole podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Chase. First of all, I just want to give you guys an apology for my absence of late. As you all know, I've spent most of this last year working on the upcoming document. series from Ontocalyps Productions. And as I'm sure you can tell at this point, everything about this project has taken longer than expected. Going into a massive project like this for the first time,

you just don't know what you don't know. And let's just say we've learned a ton. But the series is officially finished and should be out before the end of the year. And the very next episode that I will drop sometime in the next couple of weeks will be the long awaited part two of the through the looking glass series. I think I've gotten more emails, messages, and tweets about that than any other single subject since I started the podcast. And I swear you'll have it soon. Thanks for hanging in there with me. In the meantime, I just wanted to drop this quick bonus episode to let you guys know about another really exciting UFO docu series coming out this Sunday, October 27th on MGM Plus, called Beyond, UFOs and The Unknown.

This series from JJ Abrams production company Bad Robot features Whitley Streber, Jeff Kriple, Gary Nolan, Leslie Kane, Chris Mellon, Jay Christopher King, Tim Gallaudet, Mitch Horowitz, and many more. And hey, guess what? I'm in it too. It looks like it's shaping up to be a fantastic show, and it is an absolute honor to be involved in this project next to so many people that I admire. In this episode, I sat down with co-executive producer Kevin Lincoln to hear more about the show and about the process that he and his

team went through to bring this to life. I've been very impressed with Kevin and his team and how far they were willing to go to chase this story down all the strange rabbit holes that you find on this path. Kevin is a very intelligent and extremely well-read guy, and this was a fun conversation that made me even more excited to watch the show. A quick side note before we begin, I'm sure that some of you will notice that the name of this project is similar to the working title of the docu series that I've been working on for the past several months. This is something that inevitably happens in this space, because we have so few words to talk about the aspects of our reality that are truly anomalous. To avoid any confusion,

we've changed the name of our series and have settled on a new name that we are really excited about. I'll be sharing more about that in the coming weeks. But for now, let's dive into my conversation with Kevin Lincoln and learn more about Beyond UFOs in the Unknown, which is dropping on MGM Plus on Sunday. Well, hey, Kevin, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here.

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Well, I know you are wrapping up what has just been a whirlwind time of, production on Beyond. And I'm so excited to see it. I have been waiting for months and I'm really excited to see what you guys have done with it. But for anybody who might not be familiar with you, can you talk a little bit about how did you find yourself making UFO documentaries? How did you find yourself in this crazy space? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting and I think it's true of

most of our team. We kind of have the same experience here, which is that we are all sort of documentary filmmakers first and foremost, you know, our backgrounds have nothing to do with UFOs. I think we all are like still fascinated to like see ourselves in this world, but we've all worked on a variety of different things. And essentially the way that this project came together is back in, I want to say 2018, but like many years ago, we made a series for Showtime called UFO. And that was largely the same team. It was a bad robot, J.J. Abrams company with Glenn Zipper. Sean Stewart, Mark Monroe, Paul Crowder, and myself. And so this group, we made that series.

That was very much on the heels of the New York Times revelations when that all felt like very fresh and new and kind of like, oh my God, this is something that's being talked about in the Times. It was being studied by the Pentagon and nobody knew. And then fast forward years later, you know, we made another series. And this time, I think it was really interesting

because it was, again, it was the same team. We went off and all made things in worlds that had nothing to do with UFOs. In the meantime, and coming back, I think seeing the way that the story had evolved and deepened and kind of like simultaneously become something that people were much more familiar with and open to considering in a more sophisticated way,

I think it enabled us to take this series in a more sort of complex and winding direction than the first one. And that's been really fun. And so, like, you know, that all being said, you know, it was great to be able to come back to this world and like see how it had evolved and also go deeper than we did the first time. Very cool. Well, I loved the first one that you guys did. I thought that was absolutely phenomenal.

You know, as you're talking, it seems as though, yes, we're getting. more conversations going, people seem more open to these things, but there's still like a certain percentage and a kind of large percentage of the general population that like isn't even aware that this is happening, isn't aware that these are conversations that are happening in Washington. And so how do you balance as a filmmaker kind of both going deeper into the subject and also still being aware that there's probably a portion of your audience that's like, I'm sorry, what? What's happening? That's a really great question. I think there are two ways that we did that, I think.

And I'll preface that by saying, I think you see an interesting dichotomy in the sort of public and the general attitude towards this, which is like on the one hand exactly what you just said, which is like people who have no idea that it's happening or maybe they saw the Times article or they saw something in the post or whatever and they're like, I don't know, I guess the governments involved with this to some extent. And then there are other people who, I feel like for a while this was trending on Twitter all the time where people would be like, they just announced that they found aliens and nobody's reacting to it. Like, how is this not a bigger deal? And it's, of course, those people were, I think, often misinterpreting news that had come out or, you know, certain stories that had been shared.

I think they were kind of taking as sort of like, oh, the government has announced this. Obviously, you know, all of us who work in this, who have, like, worked in this space, very quickly you realize that the government is not a thing. Like, there is no one monolithic government making proclamations or all these different organizations that, you know, often have no idea what, you know, the right hand is no idea what the left hand is doing. And so I think in that sense, that's an interesting dichotomy to kind of be bringing a project like this into. And so I think the two ways that we approached it, number one, and this is characteristic of our first series, too, we only spoke to the most credible people we could think of and the most credentialed and the most sort of like just people who you take seriously and you inherently trust, one of whom is you.

You appear in the series. So you were part of that group. But I think also that, you know, that includes Adam Schiff, that includes Senator Gillibrand, that includes Christopher Mellon, Jeffrey Criple, you know, people who not only are very serious, intelligent people, but people who have a certain level of, they are present in conversations that are high level and that it really, you know, people can immediately trust these people to some extent. So I think that's helpful because it skips that level of the viewer having to think, well, do I trust this person or do I not trust this person? You at least inherently can say, oh, well, these people are influential, meaningful people, no matter how I think about them personally. And so then the second part of that equation, though, I think is proceeding like step by step in our storytelling. And I think that that's like one of the things that I hope really distinguishes our series is that I, you know, I think we all consider ourselves storytellers first and foremost. This is a really interesting story. And so we wanted to tell the most interesting version of this story that we could. And for us, that I think is starting with what people probably do know or have encountered to some extent, the time story, the government hearings, the congressional hearings. people like Ryan Graves, like these stories that have been, you know, that some people have heard

before, many people haven't, but that have kind of make up the general public awareness of the issue. And then we use those stories as a jumping off point to then get like deeper, weirder, stranger and more, you know, esoteric is maybe not the right word. But I think as you've experienced from working in this world, there's a lot of stuff that like, it's like the deep cuts. And so I think we kind of, by moving incrementally from what people maybe have heard of into what they haven't heard of and like leading them by the hand as we go, I think that's what enables us to get people to the weirder stuff without losing them. But it's a challenge for sure.

I think that's a great approach. You know, like you said, you've gotten to speak to, you know, between this series and last series, you've gotten to speak to some of the very, very top minds in the field and people who are extremely credentialed and some of whom probably have more knowledge about this than they're able to share publicly. But what has it been like for you and your team kind of coming to this from the outside and then getting to speak to those people? Like, were there were moments that really shocked you or surprised you as you've gone through this process? Yes, definitely. I mean, I think when Jack Fellé pulled out here,

his containers of meta materials like on camera. That was definitely a moment where you're like, wow. Wow, you know, like what am I even seeing here? And I think talking to people like Jock, I think, you know, especially Dr. Gary Nol and former Admiral Tim Gallaudet, like these are people who just, the level of knowledge that they have access to

is, you know, beyond. anything that I think the rest of us can even really imagine. And, you know, you do get that sense that you're kind of just skimming the surface because they can't, they can't, they literally cannot tell you about these, these other things that are happening. But I think in that sense, you know, it is really exciting to talk to them. And I think even people whose stories maybe have been told before, like I know Ryan Graves has told his story before, but hearing it from him, you know, it is just like, you

know, it is just one of those things that kind of takes your breath away. I mean, the biggest, actually, the best example of that was Whitley, you know, talking to Whitley Streber and hearing him tell the story of the events that he wrote about in communion. I mean, it's impossible not to feel like your whole body, you know, chills go through your whole body. It was truly like doing that interview was one of the most, it was one of the strangest experiences. It was one of the strangest experiences of my life because you just start to look at everything around you differently because these experiences that he's describing they just you know you hear them and you your brain doesn't want to accept that it's possible and then I think the more you kind of allow

yourself to think like well you know I trust Whitley and if Whitley said this happened that means it can't happen and then you start to think well could this happen to me like you know what would that be like and I and one thing I like to tell people because I think a lot of the two questions that I get as a filmmaker who is working in this, and I know that this is true of our directors and the other producers, is like, people often ask you two things. They ask you, one, do you believe, you know, that's like the first thing that I think we get asked. And then the other thing I think people often talk about is like, would you want to see something or would you want to have a sighting? And I think like, especially if you're making these series, like I often

and you feel like not really. I've seen the effects that these experiences have had on people's lives. And I mean Whitley and Jay, they come to mind most kind of prominently. And I think both of them have really done something beautiful by turning what were very disturbing experiences into work that has helped a lot of people. But you don't necessarily like hear them talk about it and think like, you know, I really want to go through that. We'll be right back after this quick break.

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Deepop, where taste recognizes taste. I always treasure anytime I get to talk to Whitley because he's a really special human being. And I'm really excited that Whitley's story and that Jay's story are going to be in the show because I think they're both, you know, really exceptional people and really brave people for stepping forward and being willing to share those stories. How did you go about approaching working with experiencers in that way? Because I know these stories that people tell. I mean, I know Jay's stories. I know Whitley's stories. They're challenging.

Like you said, they're frightening at times. they're kind of fantastical and to hear them coming out of the mouth of someone who's so clearly like grounded and intelligent and like clearly not insane. How do you approach that that whole thing and how did you prepare for that? Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I've talked to other filmmakers who have worked in this field and I think the question of experiencers is often a very difficult one because I think the people, especially you're trying to do the like credible UFO documentaries. I think sometimes they get a little, you know, experience. there's feel like, oh, you're kind of like crossing the Rubicon. You know, it's like, oh, it's not just

seeing things in the sky. It's like, these are the people who have been abducted. And, you know, again, as Whitley talks about so poignantly, I mean, he's been an object of ridicule for so many people culturally over the years and has had to suffer through that kind of attitude that it does, you know, it makes you really cognizant of like the way that the culture views people who have these experiences and then are brave enough to talk about them. And so I think as far as we, how we approached it, you know, I think first off, we again, we sort of tried to create an on-ramp for the viewer so that it would lead them up to those experiences because I think a mistake that can be made with showcasing those sorts of stories is when you don't actually provide them

with enough context and support to help a viewer, again, sort of like put them in the schematic of all these things that have been happening across time. All of these ways that such experiences show up in our mythology and in our religions, you know, in the Bible, like in all of these places where they're actually very similar. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of similarities. And so we tried to use that kind of context and people, like Jeffrey Criple and Greg McGigian and just like these experts to provide that sort of grounding so that when you hear somebody's story when you hear Whitley's story you're not just thinking well this is crazy you know you're thinking wow what is this like you know this kind of

reminds me this other thing too and oh yeah it's it is similar to you know these other encounters that people had in Celtic culture or whatever and I think though the That's like one of the ways that we really tried to approach them. And then I think the other thing we tried to do, so that would be like the on-ramp, I think the second part is kind of like then providing the next place to go. And that's the like these questions that I think we really tried to fill the series with. And it's part of why it's called beyond. It's because we are trying to go beyond this question of, okay, are UFOs real?

Are there UFOs? I think we're kind of trying to take that question and the answer is yes. Like there is something that is there is a phenomenon that is significant enough that there are congressional hearings about it and you know government organizations investigating it. Obviously that means there is something going on even if UFOs end up being Russian drones or whatever. You know there's still something. You know there's something There's people are encountering something. And so I think we're trying to kind of take that question as a bit of a given or accepting it and then move on to the next questions.

Okay, what are they? What do they mean? What does it mean for human consciousness? What are these things that people are experiencing and the strange qualities of these experiences? How might they relate to things like near-death experiences? How might they relate to things like remote viewing? And so by doing that, I think we're also like, like, like, like we're working really hard to take experiences like Whitley's and like Jay's and not just like

leave them hanging. You know, we want to use them to get us into these deeper questions and then connect all those dots. So people start to think, oh, yeah, like there's something bigger here. And, you know, it's like Whitley said to us a number of times, and I'm sure you've heard this before. When Anne said to him, I, you know, I think this has something to do with death. Like that for us, I think, became kind of like a guiding principle is like, yeah, this has something to do with the biggest questions that face us as human beings.

Absolutely. I think that that's a, that's something from Whitley that's always stuck with me as well. Because I think especially like the first time you hear it, you're like, huh? Because that's just not how this phenomenon is presented to us generally. Like those things couldn't be more separate from each other. And so it's really surprising. I was excited to see in your episode descriptions that I got some hints that you were moving into that direction with kind of consciousness and remote viewing and all of that. Along with experience or stories, that's something that I feel like is often left out of the greater narrative about UFOs.

And a lot of people are like really reluctant to or even resistant to the idea that consciousness or something like that could be involved or that we could be talking about something that like we might call for lack of a better word, the soul. you know, and what humans are capable of and all of that. So without giving too much away, what is surprised you about that connection between UFOs and consciousness? What was that process like? Yeah, that's, I mean, a lot of surprise me. And I think now it's been kind of this multiple year journey of integrating some of this knowledge and trying to absorb it. But obviously, you know, I think when I read for the first time the work of Jeff Kreeple, particularly authors of The Impossible and the Flip,

I think those books really kind of force you to make, like, there's two people, actually. It's Jeff Kriple and then Mitch Horowitz is the other one. I think both Jeff and Mitch, their work forces you to confront the idea that this material is genuine, you know, that it is real. These are real experiences that people are having and that there's a lot of really good. proof that they are authentic, you know? And I think Mitch has talked about this, but so many other writers at this point, you know, a lot of the laboratory evidence for some of the parapsychological studies is like stronger than the evidence we have for many things that we just kind of accept as like a part of our lives. I mean, it's like good. It's a good evidence. And so, you know,

I remember there was a slate piece where they were basically, it was about Daryl Bams work at Cornell. And the piece was basically like Daryl Bems' work shows that like the scientific method is broken. Because you can't accept that, oh, maybe his work shows that this thing is real. It's actually, and I believe that was about retrocausality in particular, though I could be wrong, and I'm pretty sure that's retrocausality study. But rather than saying, oh, well, this work proves that retrocausality, there's something there. It's no, it's actually there's something wrong with the scientific method, which is a really fascinating way to, way to interpret that. And of course, if you're approaching this material, if you're approaching these

subjects through the lens of scientific materialism, you don't really have any other choice, because that's the only way to interpret them. And so I think Jeff and Mitch both do a really good job of forcing you to take these things seriously. And then I think as far as in particular, I would say remote viewing and near-death experiences, which are places that we go kind of in depth in our series. With remote viewing, I think remote viewing has always really stood out to me as a subject worth exploring because, I mean, the CIA has like more or less said outwardly that they had success with these techniques and Mitch talks in our series about, you know, Jimmy Carter coming out and saying that, you know, the military used remote viewing to find a

downpilot and being just, you know, raped over the calls for it. And so, for me, remote viewing has always been one of those places where you're most forced to really deal with the evidence. And again, I'm not even saying the evidence isn't like, this is definitely real. I'm saying, okay, if the military and the CIA are actually saying we had success with these techniques, then you, then it's kind of incumbent on the person hearing that to engage with the methodology and with the material and say, no, actually, there was something else that happened here, or maybe you did, maybe it does, maybe it does work in some sense. And, you know,

I think that that also kind of brings up this question of like, do these things work all the time every time without any lapses? It doesn't seem like it, you know, I'm sure you've discussed this subject before with the idea of kind of the trickster and this way where sometimes people are almost like faking it is a part of getting the real results at times. These are ideas that are very hard for our culture to engage with and understand and really like, they don't make sense. You know, they're different than what we, the way we see the world. And so when you encounter something that's different, you either need to change your mind

or you can't really hear it fully. I love that. And I'm a big fan of Jeff and Mitch as well, for I just about everything, both them is Britain. So I'm really glad to hear that they'll have a big voice in this. And yeah, I mean, I do think those things are really challenging. The example I like to use with people is just the placebo effect, which I mean, like, explain to me what the difference is between the placebo effect and faith healing. Like, I think it's really context and where it's happening more than anything else. And so we know that these things are, they're tricky in a lab, for sure,

but we know that these things are true enough that we have to build our drug studies around them. So, yeah, it's a fascinating subject for sure. And I think on that note, I think it's worth mentioning that, like, one of the really interesting things of making a series about UFOs is that we live in a culture and in a time

where obviously religion, spirituality, belief, they've become kind of siloed ideas. You know, there are different groups who believe different things. things and they kind of generally interact, but there isn't necessarily that shared sense of like, this is the way the world works that I think, you know, for many thousands of years, characterized most cultures and was generally uniform across cultures.

And what I've always been most interested in about UFOs as a story and as a cultural signifier is that they seem to be some, they seem to be uniquely, suited to us as in 20th, 21st century America, and the global West, I guess, would be another way to put it, because obviously these are not contained to America. But there's, you know, it seems like they have a lot to tell us about ourselves. And I think that's a very kind of Jungian way to look at it. But like, for me, that is much more interesting and important than this question of, I mean, I shouldn't say, it's not much more interesting. and important than the question of whether they're real or not.

Obviously, if we came up with incontrovertible proof that aliens who are here, it would be, you know, the biggest story in history, like, ever, you know? I mean, but I think short of that, what I think is really interesting about this is just like that idea of what does it, what does it have to tell us about ourselves and about living in a technological culture and having the capacities that we have to reap destruction upon ourselves. I mean, I think this is why the work of David Lynch, particularly, you know, episode eight of Twin Peaks, the Return. I don't know if you've ever, yeah. Oh, yeah, big fan. Yeah, that, I think to me, that episode is like something that I keep in

mind when I think about these, this subject, because he really, it's like he really opens the Pandora's box in that episode and kind of really shows you, like, what, came out. And I really think that like what we're dealing with in the world, the world of UFOs and the world of experiencers and all this stuff, like to me, it's a little bit like what came out of the Pandora's box that was opened by the atomic bomb being used in World War II. And, you know, this, I think right now we're talking a little bit more about, I wouldn't say that's necessarily reflected in the series. It's more of kind of my own personal gloss on it. But I think the series, what we really try to do is use the work of people like Jeff Kriple of Jacques Valet,

of Mitch Horowitz, like to really push on to the next frontier of like, what is this all? What is this all for us? That's so exciting. I can't wait. I can't wait to watch. So I know for me kind of recognizing the reality of a UFO phenomenon and kind of like flipped my whole worldview on its head and really changed not just how I saw this particular subject, but everything. And I'm wondering if you or like other people on the team have sort of gone through that same process over the last few years. Has it changed how you see the world in general? It's a great question. I can't speak for anybody else on the team. I can only speak for myself.

I would say that I've always been somebody who is very interested in questions of spirituality and religion and like the sort of fringes of science where you're kind of getting into the quantum realm and all of that. And I would say that like doing this work has kind of made me more solidly believe that like there is more to this world than we, you know, that we understand. What that is, I don't know. You know, I have no answers. And I think that's kind of one of the funny things about like making a series like this is like, you know, as documentary filmmakers, it's like when you make a series, when you make a true crime series, for example, it's like who did it? You know, who did it and why? And what was the experience of the victims? Those are very clear. Those are like answers with,

those are like questions with clear answers. This subject is not a question with a clear answer. It's a very muddy answer. And I think, you know, that's how I kind of feel. It's like I have a lot of ideas about it. I have a lot of feelings that, yes, there's something else going on. I think I do tend to kind of land in the sort of Jeff Kriple territory of like, you know, consciousness is more to tell us. And there's much more, you know, there's much more mystery and ambiguity here.

But like, what is it? you know, who knows? And like, it probably doesn't line up with any clear one creed or religion or belief. But, you know, I think it makes a lot of sense to me why people often adopt a creed or a set of beliefs, because it is a way to navigate this material. Honestly, you know, you're taking on, you know, a system that can help you know, make sense of it. And I think to some extent, you know, that's a, that's like a healthy move. But the, you know, there's also, I think one of the things that I have experienced personally from doing this work is that there are so many different systems and sets of beliefs

that often have a lot of overlap, but also a lot of contradiction. And I think the more I've kind of seen that, the harder it is for me to necessarily, you know, throw myself into any one given set of beliefs. Like I'm very much not a, not a proponent of like any system of explanations for what's going on here. I don't know. Yeah, I get that. I think the more you learn about this, the harder and harder it is to like make any kind of commitment to a particular answer, right? It just gets harder. It either does or it doesn't though, right? Because I think you have two, you have two options. The one is you choose something because then it gives you that clear explanation. The other is, I think,

you stay really open. And I think both of those are like viable reactions. But yeah, I think we both, we both probably fall on the staying open side. Yeah, that's a really great point. Well, it's been so fun to talk to you about the show. I can't wait to watch it. It's been an honor to be involved. So it's going to be out this Sunday, October 27th on MGM Plus. Do you know if that's coming out at a particular time? Do you know, like if they're dropping it all at once or is it coming out in stages or how's that going to go? You know, I'm pretty sure it is, it's coming out week by week. So one episode a week. So episode one is October 27th. Episode two is November 3rd. Episode 3 is November 10th and episode four is November 17th. Okay, awesome. Well, that's great. So we'll have some weeks to

enjoy it. I'm really looking forward to it. Thank you again for being on the show. And thank Thanks for inviting me to be a part of this project. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was great, great talking to you. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank.

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