Inquiry with Kelly Chase - [The UFO Rabbit Hole] July 2023 Pre-Hearing Analysis: Where Are The Whistleblowers?

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

As we look forward to next week's hearing, we're discussing concerns about the witnesses, the stunning allegations from members of Congress, and what we should expect in the week to come.NEW Class from Dr. James MaddenUnidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the WorldFour-week online class via ZoomWednesdays, March 27 – April 24 (skips April 10), 20247 – 9 pm ETLearn More About the ClassSign Up NowGET THE EPISODE BRIEFBECOME A PATRONGET THE BOOKGet a SIGNED COPYGet it on AmazonFOLLOWWebsiteTwitterFacebookMUSICTheme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun FrearsonBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-ufo-rabbit-hole-podcast--5746035/support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My name is Danny Sheehan. I'm a constitutional litigator who has tried some of the most important cases in recent American history. From Pentagon Papers, the Watergate scandal, to Iran-Contra. My legal career has led me now to this pivotal moment as our human family confronts the implications of the existence here on our planet of extraterrestrial or extradimensional non-human species. I will be your guide as we dive into the profound philosophical, theological, and public policy questions pertaining to the UFO phenomenon, alien life, and the citizen movement for disclosure. This is the Full Disclosure podcast, coming to you from the New Paradigm Institute on Spectrevision Radio. Heading to the movies, reserve your seat before the show on Fandango, fun times, read reviews, watch the trailers, and

buy tickets to your favorite theater. Fast and easy on the Fandango app for Fandango.com. All that's left is choosing butter or no butter. As if that's a tough decision. Every movie, every feeling, every time. And did we mention

double rewards? That's Van Dengo. Your one stop before showtime. Moving day means that you and the things that matter to you are in for a big transition. There's a lot to figure out new closets, different counter space, Change a floor plan? No worries.

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in the House next week. We've seen startling progress over the past few weeks with regards to elected officials speaking openly about the seriousness and the urgency of the allegations made by various UFO whistleblowers who have already spoken under oath to Congress. And with the new hearing date set for next week, it certainly feels like the dam is beginning to break. And with this momentum has become a certain frenetic energy. Confirmation bias and emotions are high, while good quality new information has been low. And into that space has arisen an escalating wave of wild news stories and theories, fueled by a toxic combination of opportunistic trolls looking for their 72 hours of Reddit fame, and more vulnerable folks who have a hard time separating out their own head cannon

from the facts. In short, it's been wild on UFO Twitter these last few weeks. And so, I've been endeavoring to protect my peace and mind my business until there was something of substance to comment on. And so, frankly, I wasn't expecting to do an episode on the lead-up to the hearings because I didn't want to add to the noise. But all that changed on Thursday morning with a press conference about the upcoming hearing. As expected, the witnesses for the hearing were announced during this press conference. What wasn't expected were the stunning allegations made by a bipartisan and group of House representatives about the extreme levels of pushback and stonewalling that they have encountered while trying to do their jobs in investigating the claims made by whistleblowers

regarding secret UFO crash retrieval programs. The significance of what's being alleged by members of Congress as we head into next week's historic hearings really can't be overstated. And I think it's important that we take some time to talk about what it all might mean and what we can expect both from next week's hearings and from the ongoing disclosure movement in the months ahead. So I promise that I will get part three of the waking up inside the cave series to all of you as soon as possible. But for right now, especially with so many new people coming to this conversation every day, I think it's important to put first things first. So let's talk about this press conference.

The press conference was led by one of Congress's most outspoken advocates for UAP transparency, Congressman Tim Burchett from Tennessee. He was joined by a bipartisan group of his colleagues, including Congressman Eric Berlison of Missouri and Congresswoman Anna Luna and Congressman Jared Moskowitz from Florida. It was announced that the hearing will be held by the House Oversight Committee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs next week on Wednesday, July 26th at 10 a.m. So mark your calendars. And as a side note, we'll be doing a patron-only Zoom call that evening at 8 p.m. East

to debrief and talk everything through. You can find all the information at patreon.com slash UFO rabbit hole. The witnesses for this hearing will be as follows. First up, we have David Grush. David Grush is a decorated former combat officer with an extensive career in intelligence, including 14 years devoted to advancing American security through covert operations. He has served in key positions at two critical U.S. government agencies, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency or the NGA and the National Reconnaissance Office, or the NRO, where he focused on UAP analysis and national security respectively. At the NGA, Grush was the senior technical advisor for UAP analysis and co-led the agency's

UAP task force from 2021 to 2022. As a senior intelligence officer at the NRO from 2016 to 2021, Grush led the production of the NRO director's daily briefing to the president, and represented the NRO in the UAP Task Force. In June of 2023, David Grush publicly came forward with claims that during his time on the UAP Task Force, multiple high-level intelligence officials, some of whom he'd known his whole career, came to him with information about secret UFO crash retrieval programs operating without oversight in the Department of Defense.

Next up, we have David Fravor. Commander David Fravor is a retired U.S. Navy pilot known for his encounter, with the UAP during what has become known as the Nimitz incident in 2004. This event gained significant attention as Fravor captured a video of the UAP, famously known as the Tick-Tac, during a routine training mission off the coast of San Diego. His account and subsequent discussions have played a critical role in the ongoing conversations and investigations regarding UAPs in both military and civilian circles. And finally, we have Ryan Graves. Ryan Graves is a former lieutenant U.S. Navy F.A. 18 pilot, notable for being the first active duty pilot to approach Congress about UAPs. After his service, he assumed the role of Executive Director of Americans for Safe Aerospace,

a nonprofit organization led by military pilots, which focuses on aerospace safety, national security, and UAPs. An advocate for transparency regarding UAPs, Graves further contributes to the discourse by hosting the merged podcast, where he explores issues related to UAP transparency. Before we dive into the shocking claims that were made during this press conference, I want to take a minute to talk about the witnesses. After Timberchette teased last week that the hearing would feature an all-star lineup of witnesses and that he planned to call as many as six of them, there's been a ton of speculation about who these witnesses might be. Obviously, Grush has always been presumed to be one of the witnesses,

But in light of Marco Rubio's recent revelation that more high-ranking whistleblowers with firsthand knowledge of special access crash retrieval programs had spoken to Congress and corroborated Gresh's claims, many had been hoping to see one or more of these individuals go on the record with the American public. Other names were being tossed around as well. In particular, former A-TIP director Lou Elizondo, who tweeted that he would be in D.C. later this month. In short, expectations around who might be testifying have been running high. So when the witnesses were announced, there were inevitably a lot of people expressing that they felt let down, and even outright concerned about the names that were given. And the usual voices from the debunker crowd were quick to

claim that this was evidence that the case made by the whistleblowers wasn't that strong. After all, if it's a slam dunk, why not put them on the stand? Obviously, the importance of this hearing can't be overstated. It took us 80 years to get to this point. And there's a genuine fear in the community, especially among those of us who are well-versed in the history of this field, that if we miss this opportunity to drag the truth about UFOs into the light, that it could be buried for another 80 years or more. The stakes are high. And so I do think that it's important for us to acknowledge and understand the concerns that have been raised. And if we're going to be objective, we need to be able to ask ourselves the uncomfortable questions that inevitably arise. So what is it exactly that

has people concerned? One of the main points of frustration for many in the community is that Grush, Fravor, and Graves are all individuals that we've heard from before. Grush has obviously been in the media over the last month with his claims about alleged secret UFO crash retrieval programs. David Fravor and Ryan Graves are both well known in the UFO community, having been featured in multiple documentaries, television shows, and appearing on podcasts. So the question is, will their testimonies add to the conversation, or will it just be more of the same? Another concern that's been raised is that none of these witnesses has firsthand knowledge of the alleged crash retrieval programs. As much as people have been excited for Gresh to testify

in this hearing, the reality is that he's only claimed to have secondhand knowledge of these alleged programs. The hope was that some of the other whistleblowers with firsthand knowledge would be stepping forward to corroborate his story. And it feels unlikely that we could gain much traction with this current push for transparency if we don't at some point get that corroboration. So the question is, why would they wait? For their parts, Fravor and Graves have never indicated that they had knowledge of crash retrieval programs at all. They were both present for infamous and well-documented UAP sightings and both have spoken out to advocate for greater transparency around the issue. but it seems unlikely that anything that they would have to share in the hearings would be able to

directly corroborate Gresh's specific claims about these programs. So the question is, why aren't they calling witnesses who can move this story forward? And perhaps the greatest concern has been what happened to the whistleblowers? Just a couple of weeks ago, Marco Rubio and others confirmed that multiple high-level whistleblowers with firsthand knowledge of these alleged secret programs had spoken to Congress and corroborated Gresh's claims. So the most glaring question of all is, where are they? Why aren't they testifying? And these are all extremely valid and important questions,

and to answer them, we need to put all of this into context from what was said at the press conference to the recent developments we've been hearing out of Washington. Let's start by talking about the goal of this hearing and why Tim Burchett says that this one is going to be different. Thus far, we've had two public hearings on UFOs, one in May of 2022 and one in April of 2003. And while both of those hearings marked major milestones in the push for disclosure,

neither of them did much to move the needle. Berchette said in Thursday's press conference that the goal is for this hearing to be different. Specifically, he called out past witnesses, calling them bureaucrats from the Pentagon, who answered every question with either, I don't know or that's classified. This hearing is a hearing is. going to be different, he said. We're going to have witnesses that can speak frankly to the public about their experiences. Another reason that these hearings are likely to be different is that they're taking place at a time when Congress is taking this issue seriously in a way that they frankly haven't before. Just in the last week, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, along with a bipartisan

group of five senators, introduced new legislation intended to require greater transparency with regard to the UFO phenomenon. Clearly influenced. by the recent whistleblower allegations by Gresh and others. This bill goes as far as to suggest that the U.S. government or private contractors may possess recovered UFOs and, quote, biological evidence of living or deceased non-human intelligence. The legislation states that a comprehensive investigation has revealed numerous individuals and groups who claim knowledge of secret UAP-related programs. Some lawmakers believe this points to the U.S. government concealing substantial UAP information, not just from the public, but from the constitutionally required

oversight of Congress. To address this, the proposed legislation calls for the establishment of an independent nine-member agency that would gather, review, and declassify UAP records. All government UFO documents would be subject to immediate public disclosure if the bill passes. The legislation goes beyond just transparency, as it also stipulates that any recovered UFOs and non-human intelligence held by private entities must be transferred to the U.S. government in the public interest. Additionally, a, quote, controlled disclosure campaign plan was introduced, which would schedule the release of sensitive UAP documents with the president holding the final authority on disclosure. In short, this is serious legislation being brought forward by a bipartisan group of

senators who have created very pointed legislation in response to the information that's being brought to them by whistleblowers. That's a level of engagement and investment that we simply haven't seen from all but a handful of representatives in Congress, until now. And so there's reason to hope that these hearings could have the kind of impact that could really move the needle on disclosure. But if we're seeing this kind of momentum from Congress, then why aren't we seeing more whistleblowers testifying? After all, aren't there supposed to be whistleblower protections in place? In December, landmark legislation was passed as part of the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act, which offered protection to UFO whistleblowers who wanted to come forward to talk to Congress about what they know.

The law shields these individuals from legal action that could arise from breaking confidentiality agreements related to these secrets, and it covers both government employees and people working for private companies involved in UAP research and development. One part of the law creates a safe way for whistleblowers to share information with members of Congress who have a legal right to this knowledge. The law also includes a provision that protects whistleblowers from retaliation or punishment, such as losing their jobs or security clearances for revealing this information. And yet, according to Tim Burchett and others in Congress, whistleblowers are still dealing with intimidation and threats. In Thursday's press conference, he alleged that whistleblowers had backed out of testifying after the Pentagon opened inquiries into them that could threaten their jobs and clearances. He also alleged that so-called debriefings of whistleblowers

who had spoken to Congress involved eight-hour-long interrogations. And later, on News Nation, he told Chris Cuomo that some pilots had destroyed evidence after being interrogated by Pentagon officials in order to protect their jobs. If the allegations of intimidation and reprisals against whistleblowers are true, it doesn't just explain why it is that we won't be seeing any new whistleblowers in this week's hearing, but it points to a much larger problem, one with disturbing implications. I want to talk to you guys about a new partner, AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. Obviously, it's been a crazy summer with all of the whistleblower news out of D.C.,

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discounts on podcast merge, and access to our monthly patron-only Zoom call, where you can ask me whatever questions you have and connect with other like-minded folks in the community. Memberships start at just $5 a month, and all of that money is invested directly back into the podcast. With more people coming to this topic every day, I'm looking at ways to create even more content and resources to support that need. Through their generous support, patrons play a crucial role in keeping the UFO Rabbit Hole podcast alive, and kicking and growing into the future. Just go to Patreon.com slash UFO Rabbit Hole to sign up.

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Learn more at Cox.com slash ACP. Non-transferable one per household application and eligibility decisions are made by the FCC. Other restrictions apply. First of all, if there's truly nothing to see here, folks, with regard to UFOs and a potential government cover-up, then why are whistleblowers being retaliated against for speaking up? The fact that they are being silenced after already speaking to Congress speaks to a much larger pattern of deceit. Secondly, and of even greater concern, is that if these allegations,

are true, then it means that there is an element within the Pentagon that is operating above the law, above the oversight of Congress, and therefore above the Constitution. Not only does this element have no problem with brazenly disobeying the law, but the whistleblowers who have come forward not only deem the threats against them to be credible, but they seemingly don't believe that Congress currently has the ability to protect them. And those fears, at least at this point, don't appear to be unfounded. Congress is currently facing substantial obstacles and stonewalling in their efforts to investigate whistleblower claims related to UFOs and alleged crash retrieval programs. In Thursday's press conference, Tim Burchett alleged that they'd received pushback from

members of Congress, the Pentagon, members of the intelligence community, and even NASA. Burchett alleges that the opposition that they are encountering is so considerable that it's impeding progress on legislative measures. One such instance is the failed attempt to introduce an amendment that would have mandated the Federal Aviation Administration to report sightings of UAP by commercial airline pilots to Congress. The amendment met significant resistance, and Burchett claims that it was ultimately shut down by the intelligence community. In Thursday's press conference, Representative Anna Paulina Luna also alleged that they have faced considerable resistance from military officials when seeking details on UAPs in response to whistleblower allegations.

The Pentagon reportedly thwarted an arranged meeting with pilots about their UAP encounters at a Florida Air Force base, where members of Congress were promised access to sensitive information. Luna made a firm stand stating, if the Department of the Air Force, if the Pentagon thinks that they're above Congress, they have something else coming to them. All right, so now that we have all that important context, let's talk about what might be going on here.

We know that several high-ranking whistleblowers with firsthand knowledge of crash retrieval programs have already spoken to Congress and corroborated the claims made last month by David Grush. This information was compelling enough to prompt an exceedingly rare bipartisan push for greater transparency with the introduction of new legislation and the scheduling of next week's hearing. However, in investigating these claims, members of Congress have experienced significant pushback and whistleblowers continue to be intimidated and retaliated against, despite the legislation in place that's meant to protect them. If true, this represents a clear and existential threat to both our country and to our democracy.

But Congress is facing an even bigger challenge, and it's one that they're going to need to overcome before they have a prayer of taking on this shadowy rogue element within the government that has managed to evade constitutionally required oversight. And that problem is that, for the vast majority of Americans, this story isn't even on their radar. In an era defined by unprecedented challenges, the challenge currently before us might be the greatest we faced as a nation so far. And the reality is that Congress is going to need the collective will of the American people behind them if they're going to have any hope of dragging these

secret programs and the truth about UFOs into the light. But again, most people have no idea this is even happening. I'm sure that I don't need to tell that to any of you. I hear from listeners and other people in the community every day, and although our numbers are growing rapidly, the thing I hear most from people is how frustrating and isolating it can be when most of the people in your life are not ready to have a discussion about the presence of UFOs and non-human intelligence on this planet. And as frustrating as that can be, I don't think that we can really blame people for their lack of interest and willingness to engage on this subject. For our entire lives, we've been told that UFOs aren't real, that stories about contact with non-human intelligence were ridiculous,

and that anyone who entertain these ideas as being in any way legitimate is either mentally ill or a liar. And it's not like people don't have any other existential threats on their plates right now. Anxieties over everything from the economy to the election to nuclear war, to climate change, to the rise of AI are at all-time highs. It's not surprising that people aren't exactly rushing to take this seriously. But it leaves Congress in a serious bind in terms of making progress in their investigation. How do you talk about secret UFO crash retrieval programs and the dangers of asymmetric technological advantages with people who don't believe that UFOs exist and who carry a bunch of inaccurate ideas instilled by the media

about what they might be even if they did? Imagine you're a member of Congress who's trying to game this out. What would you do given this set of challenges and constraints? How would you move the ball forward? When you start to think about it this way, the choices being made about the witnesses for next week's hearings suddenly start to make a lot more sense. The whistleblowers besides Grush aren't in play right now, and they are likely going to need more assurances to come forward publicly. That means that they're going to be looking at Congress and to the American public to see how these hearings are received. If these revelations are met with crickets and if Congress isn't able to signal that they are going to be able to hold those retaliating against whistleblowers accountable, then there is no motivation for them to come forward.

They'd be risking their careers and perhaps even their lives for an initiative that's destined to fail. So Congress needs to do two things with this hearing. First, they need to make as much noise as possible and do everything in their power to get the reality of the UFO phenomenon on the radar of the American people. And secondly, they need to show that there is enough collective will within Congress to effectively pursue this investigation and to hold people accountable. In terms of point number one, I'd argue that David Grush, David Fraver, and Ryan Graves are the right witnesses to be taking the stand next week. And I think that remains true even if the other whistleblowers were willing to participate.

Hear me out. Well, it's true that the legislation that was passed in December makes it possible for whistleblowers to come forward with what they know to Congress, what it doesn't do is allow for people with classified information about special access programs to share that information directly with the public. As Tim Burchett said in Thursday's press conference, it does them no good to put people on the stand who could only answer questions with its classified. That would only further money the waters and would likely fail to get anyone's attention. What we need right now are people who can speak frankly and openly to the American people about what they know. And while the secret UFO crash

retrieval programs are the primary focus of the larger investigation, what's most important in terms of this first hearing is that the case is made to the public that UFOs are real and that the government has been engaged in an extensive cover-up. Unlike the whistleblowers that have spoken to Congress, David Fravor and Ryan Graves are able to talk about what they know. They have first-hand experience with UAPs interfering with U.S. military operations and with how the government responds to such incidents. And best of all, the incidents that they witnessed and the associated videos that have been released to the public aren't classified, so they can go on the record. For members of the UFO community who've been following this story for a while, Fravor and Graves are known quantities. We've heard their

stories, but it's important to remember that most Americans have it. And if they have, they certainly haven't heard them in the context of a congressional hearing. The accounts of these two men are compelling and important to laying the necessary foundation for this larger conversation. And as for David Grush, as we discussed in the initial episode about his whistleblower allegations, which you can find linked in the episode brief, he is uniquely positioned to speak frankly with the American people as well. A few months ago, Grush submitted his statements regarding information that he received about secret UFO crash retrieval programs operating without oversight to the Department of Defense, and in April, the DOD cleared his statements. To be clear,

by clearing his statements the DOD wasn't saying that they approved of his statements or that they were true. It just means that nothing in the statements that he intended to make publicly were a threat to national security. Now, this was a brilliant move on Grush's part, because it forced the DoD to make a tough choice. They could choose not to clear his statements, but in doing so, they would have had to say that his statements were a threat to national security. If they're not true, then how could they be a threat to national security? So the Pentagon instead chose to clear his statements, which allows them to maintain plausible deniability. But it also gives Grush the ability to speak openly about the allegations that he had cleared by them. And for those that continue

to grumble, that Grush doesn't have firsthand information of these crash retrieval. programs and was only told about them by intelligence officials who are in these programs. I think it's important to point out that it's very likely that the only reason that this plan worked is exactly because Grush wasn't claiming to have firsthand knowledge. There is no mechanism by which members of special access programs can share classified information directly with the public. But being one degree removed, Grush is able to say things that they can't. What's going to be important to watch is how Congress and the public at large respond to rush after this hearing. If he's taken seriously and if Congress continues to signal their willingness

to move in an aggressive and bipartisan manner to ensure greater transparency on this issue, then hopefully the other whistleblowers will be more willing to come forward. And one more thought on the whistleblowers. Even if they were willing to speak publicly in next week's hearing, I can think of a couple really good reasons for why Congress might want to slow play that hand. There's the most obvious point, which is that if the whistleblowers were to all come forward next week, but the American public still wasn't in a place where they were ready to hear it, and the hearing didn't have the intended impact, which I personally think would be a real possibility given the current environment.

Then what? The story would be buried within a couple of news cycles, and it would be impossible to protect the whistleblowers, and the likely result would be that this story gets buried again. But beyond that risk, there's also the reality, that if members of Congress are investigating secret programs operating within the DoD without oversight, and we have every indication that this is being seriously investigated, then they probably wouldn't want to put their key witnesses on the stand to reveal what they know,

at least not until they are in a position to act. So given all of this, what can we expect from next week's hearings? To be honest, while I'm hoping that we'll get some new information and new evidence out of this process, I'm not going to be holding my breath for it. What I'm personally hoping to see are two things. I want to see that all three of the witnesses are able to give their full and explicit testimony about what they know to Congress and to the American people. And I want to see that Congress is telegraphing strongly and clearly,

that they are taking this matter seriously and that they want to get to the bottom of why the whistleblowers that they've already heard from backed out of this hearing. As much as I'm absolutely salivating for any shred of new information, If Congress can just get those two things done in the hearing, and if we get a new set of hearings scheduled for when Congress reconvenes in September, I think we should consider it a win. And I really hope that we get that win. And I think it's important to remember what's at stake here. This is not just about getting the government to admit to the reality of the UFO phenomenon or the presence of a non-human intelligence on this planet. Frankly, we don't need the government

for that. As anyone who has spent any amount of time studying this topic can tell you, the evidence for these things is overwhelming. It's all around us. And you don't need anyone's help or permission to engage with this reality. All you need is curiosity and an open mind. Try as they might, the nature of our reality isn't something that the government can own or control. But something bigger is at stake here. If there is an element of our government that is in possession of advanced non-human that has the potential to give them an asymmetric technological advantage, not just over our adversaries, but over our own military. And if this shadowy group is operating outside of constitutionally required oversight, if they are threatening and intimidating members of our military

and intelligence community who try to come forward, if they are shutting down inquiry, investigation, and even attempts at the most basic safety protocols in response to this reality, then we are in big, big trouble. If this is true, it's not just an existential threat to our country and our democracy. It potentially means that our free and democratic country is, in a very real sense, already lost to us, because we the people are no longer in control and likely haven't been for nearly a century. So what can we do? First and foremost, we can continue to contact our representatives in Congress to thank them for the work that they've done so far.

in moving this issue forward and to encourage them to do more. At the end of the day, these people are public servants, but they are also politicians. And if they're going to take up a potentially messy fight such as this one, especially while heading into a contentious election cycle, they need to know that they have the collective will and support the American people behind them and that we expect them to do everything in their power to investigate this issue and to hold people accountable. And the other thing that we can do is to talk to the people in our lives about this issue. As we've discussed, everything about this situation is riding on the American people beginning to wake up to the reality of the UFO phenomenon. We need to have that breakthrough moment,

and we need to continue to push for it until we get there. Next week's hearings likely won't be that moment, but it can be a major inflection point. This thing is like a snowball rolling downhill. public awareness of UFOs will likely happen slowly at first and then all at once. And we can't know where we are in that process and how close we are to the tipping point until we get there. So the best thing that we can do is just to keep talking about it. Now granted, not everyone is ready for this conversation. Everyone's situation is unique. Some of you might have lots of people in your life that are open-minded enough to consider these ideas,

and some of you might wonder if there's anyone you can talk to at all. And as important as this issue is, if talking about it is going to alienate you from the people closest to you or, God forbid, cause you to lose your job or something like that, then you should not feel guilty about keeping those thoughts to yourself. But if you are in a position to talk to certain people in your life about this, I'd encourage you to do so. Start slowly at first. Don't throw anyone into the deep end. Just start by feeling them out. Ask them if they've heard about the upcoming hearing or about the government's admission that the U.F.S. phenomenon is real. Don't try to push the conversation where you want it to go. Instead, follow their curiosity. If they don't ask follow-up questions, maybe just let it go for a while and come back to it. But if they do ask questions, then do your best to answer them clearly and directly while sticking to the facts as much as possible. Try to avoid the urge to tell them what it means,

and instead help them get to a place where they're asking themselves what it means, and then point them in the direction of some resources that might be able to help them frame things. If you get pushback, do your best not to be defensive. Not everyone is ready to talk about this stuff, and it can be easy to take someone's skepticism on this topic personally, to take it as a judgment of your objectivity or intelligence. Trust me, I know that when you bring up something like this to someone that you love and respect and they look at you like you're crazy, it can sting. But try to remember that everyone has their own journey with this and that nothing about someone

else's worldview is personal. We're all just here trying to figure. hear things out. And if you do get some interest from the people that you talk to and are looking for resources to share with them, please consider sharing the UFO rabbit hole. And done my best to create resources that go deep on the current push for disclosure while also being accessible to people who don't have any background on this topic. I have a bunch of relevant episodes linked up in the episode brief, including the episode on David Gresh's allegations and part one of the disclosure field guide. And of course, the whole podcast is designed so that someone with no background on

the topic can start on episode one and get up to speed with the most seasoned euphologists. And if the people you're talking to aren't podcast people, I'll also share a list of books in the episode brief that I recommend most often for people who are just getting started. So that's where we'll leave it until next time. This week promises to be one for the history books, and I'll be doing my best to respond in real time. If you want updates on all the latest, Make sure to follow me on Twitter. That's where I'm usually the most active. My handle is at UFO underscore rabbit underscore hole,

and you can find the link in the episode description. Until next time. Trying to get home to stream that highly anticipated series finale. Well, it may take longer with T-Mobile 5G home internet. You could be stuck with slower speeds during the busiest hours because you share your network with cell phone users. Why deal with that? Switch to Cox Internet with two times faster download speeds

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